It’s time to cross wires! This week on the show, Pete and Seth bring Andy Nelson of The Next Reel Film Podcast to talk about their favorite experiences of the law in film. Part of CrossTalk from TruStory FM.
The Next Reel Film Podcasts have been covering film and popular culture since 2011, dissecting movies in obsessive detail. They've even covered legal movies, but only as ignoramuses in the audience. This week, they get to find out how much they got right, and how much they should care.
We all know Seth's love of movies, even if he doesn't always back it up with an encyclopedic knowledge of industry trivia. This week, law school will finally pay off as he teaches the movie guys a thing or two.
How to Split a Toaster and The Next Reel Introductions
Favorite Movies Representing the Law
Round One
Round Two
Round Three
Round Four
Backups
Wrapping Up
It’s time to cross wires! This week on the show, Pete and Seth bring Andy Nelson of The Next Reel Film Podcast to talk about their favorite experiences of the law in film. Part of CrossTalk from TruStory FM.
Show Notes
It’s time to cross wires! This week on the show, Pete and Seth bring Andy Nelson of The Next Reel Film Podcast to talk about their favorite experiences of the law in film. Part of CrossTalk from TruStory FM.
The Next Reel Film Podcasts have been covering film and popular culture since 2011, dissecting movies in obsessive detail. They've even covered legal movies, but only as ignoramuses in the audience. This week, they get to find out how much they got right, and how much they should care.
We all know Seth's love of movies, even if he doesn't always back it up with an encyclopedic knowledge of industry trivia. This week, law school will finally pay off as he teaches the movie guys a thing or two.
Podcaster and co-host, Pete Wright brings years of marriage and a spirit of curiosity to the divorce process. He's spent the last two decades interviewing experts and thinkers in emotional healing and brings that with him to the law, divorce, and saving relationships in the process.
Host
Seth R. Nelson
Seth Nelson is the founding attorney and managing partner at NLG Divorce & Family Law. He is a Tampa-based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems.
Producer
Andy Nelson
Hailing from nearly 25 years in the world of film, television, and commercial production, Andy has always had a passion for storytelling, no matter the size of the package.
What is How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships?
Seth Nelson is a Tampa based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems. In How to Split a Toaster, Nelson and co-host Pete Wright take on the challenge of divorce with a central objective — saving your most important relationships with your family, your former spouse, and yourself.
Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split A Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from True Story FM. And also welcome to the Next Real Film Podcast. This week on the show, we're introducing a new series here at True Story. We're calling it the True Story crosstalk in which hosts from 2 different shows join forces in a conversation that spans their two areas of subject expertise. And today, the law in the movies.
Pete Wright:
Joining me, I'm Pete Wright. Today are 2 of our very favorite people. First, Seth, check your local jurisdiction, Nelson, family law attorney at Nelson Coster Family Law in Tampa, Florida and host of How to Split a Toaster. This is not a movie show. Hello, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
Hey, Pete. Love the middle name.
Pete Wright:
It's good. I business cards are, on order. I have here Andy Nelson. No relation. He is my fair cohost of the Next Real Film Podcast and has been so since 2011 on which we have discussed 100 of movies and have only sloppily discussed the law along the way.
Pete Wright:
Hello, Andy.
Andy Nelson:
Yes. Sloppy is probably the best way to describe that. You know, we do our best. We do our best feigning to act. Like we know what we're talking about.
Pete Wright:
So many legal words though, Andy, I've got so many words.
Seth Nelson:
You guys aren't lawyers, but you play 1 on a podcast.
Pete Wright:
We sure do. That's exactly what we do.
Andy Nelson:
In fact, depending on some of your choices, I may, I may object. We'll see.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, look at you. Right
Pete Wright:
away. Yeah. Outstanding.
Seth Nelson:
And then I say cut. Is that how that works?
Pete Wright:
Is that that's exactly how that works. Well, no. You got it. You nailed it. You've nailed it.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, okay.
Pete Wright:
So, roll sound. Here we go. So we 1st, we have a set of rules. We're creating a, is this kind of a bracket, I guess, a little bit of of our favorite movies and that represent the law. Andy, could you review, please, the rules for our conversation today?
Andy Nelson:
Certainly. Yeah. We're each bringing a list of movies to the table. We're, Seth's gonna kick us off and then Pete and then me. And we're each gonna, you know, kind of go around the table.
Andy Nelson:
So as it were and and name one of our favorite movies that deal with the law in some aspect. And then, Ian, then see if it ends up getting if it was a steal from somebody else or not. And we'll just kind of go around and hopefully have a lot of fun talking about some movies and the quality of law in each of these and the quality of the films. It'll be a fun conversation to have.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. I'm
Pete Wright:
very excited about this because of Seth's level of preparation. I feel like,
Seth Nelson:
I've got questions already. I mean, there's really, and he's gonna object. So who's the judge and gets to decide. I feel like, you know, you guys do this all the time. I'm a little disadvantaged, but I'm gonna try to hold my own.
Pete Wright:
The people are
Seth Nelson:
the judge. The people are the judge. I like it.
Pete Wright:
Alright. So, Seth, do you wanna do you wanna do the honors and kick us off with your, one of your favorite, law movies?
Seth Nelson:
This one's easy for me. Favorite law movie of all time that I've ever had, I think, and that I will ever have. My Cousin Vinny.
Pete Wright:
I I knew it. I love that one. And it's a steal.
Seth Nelson:
Well, thank you for letting me go first. Andy, did you have that one too?
Andy Nelson:
I had it on my backup list. I didn't have this one in my 5 picks, but it's a it's a great one.
Pete Wright:
The the open his opening line his opening line, everything that guy just said is bullshit. It's one
Seth Nelson:
of the
Pete Wright:
most one of the best, arguments. Now this is one that that Andy and I have talked about over at the next show. We we haven't done a show on it, but it has come up in the past when we were discussing the law in movies. And I think, I was surprised to hear that this movie is lauded so highly by attorneys as a great movie that that demonstrates what goes on in a courtroom. What is it really that great?
Seth Nelson:
It is that great. And in fact, I on American the the American great teaching where people all go and they teach a class at a high school or middle school or grade school, I was invited to do that. And I used my cousin Vinny to teach trial law. And I know law schools will use my cousin Vinny to teach trial advocacy.
Pete Wright:
That's amazing.
Andy Nelson:
What is it about it that that, like, gets it right as opposed to some other films? Like, is it the fact that he knows nothing and his girlfriend, like, schools him on everything? Is that like because she's actually schooling him on the actual way things happen.
Seth Nelson:
Well, it's not only that he's getting schooled by his girlfriend, which as you guys know, I'm a divorce lawyer, and I would advise any guy just don't mansplain. Just agree. Okay? But what's really interesting about the courtroom scenes and even behind the scenes when he's saying, well, he thinks he's all slick because he went hunting and the guy offered to give him all the documents. And she's like, that's called discovery.
Seth Nelson:
He's required to do that. Right? Because she's reading those rules that we always talk about and how to split a toaster. But so it explains the law in a way that most legal movies do not. Okay.
Seth Nelson:
And, like, there's objections in the courtroom. And there's ways to properly object to a question. And there's, and the way I would explain this is or the easiest way to understand this is everybody has information about a case. But the judge doesn't get to consider that information unless it's in evidence. And because we're talking about movies, this is how I actually explain it to clients.
Seth Nelson:
I tell them, once it's in evidence is as if it's on a movie screen and the judge can watch that movie. But if it's not in evidence, it gets cut to the floor. The judge doesn't consider it. And in My Cousin Vinny, he has all these objections that are just not properly done. And then finally, he has an objection.
Seth Nelson:
And the judge says, you know, mister Gambini, that was a well thought out, reasoned, and explained objection. And he gets all excited and says, thank you, your honor. And then the judge says, overruled.
Pete Wright:
Well, it's it's an incredibly funny movie. Marisa Tomei won the, Oscar for that one that year, and it's a just a terrific, terrific film. If you haven't seen it in a while, 1992. There's probably a lot of folks out here who, if you've seen it, it's been a while. Check it out.
Pete Wright:
Great first pick.
Andy Nelson:
Definitely. Definitely. Alright, Pete. You're up. What is your, what's your first pick?
Pete Wright:
Man, this is one. I you don't Seth, you don't deal with a lot of of jury trials, do you?
Seth Nelson:
No. In Florida, check your local jurisdiction. There are no jury trials when it comes to a divorce case. It's all called a bench trial by a judge.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Well, I I wonder if you could put yourself back into law school and share with me your insights on one of my very, very favorite films, the 1957 adaptation of 12 Angry Men, Henry Fonda as the lone juror. Everyone in here is amazing. But this is one of those movies that I mean, in terms of a sort of a locker room, you know, conversation story, this this movie is is one of the most energetic and dynamic, of of, you know, as they come. But it it brings up these questions for me around the law of, like, how great is a system when the supposedly impartial jury of our peers is so wrapped up in their own personal garbage?
Pete Wright:
Like, they're they're all just they're racist and, you know, horrible people in their own unique way. It it sort of demonstrates kind of the dark side of this system that we put together. And I, I just I just love it. I love the lessons that these men learn about themselves and about each other. I love the everything about it.
Pete Wright:
What do you think? 12 Angry Men.
Seth Nelson:
Brilliant film. It was on my list. So my understanding of these very sparse rules that we have is that's considered a steal.
Pete Wright:
That would be considered a steal if it was one of your primary movies. There. Like, it it's okay. It's a
Andy Nelson:
double steal, actually. Nice. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Oh, this is, points are racking up here.
Andy Nelson:
It's a it's such a classic. I mean, watching these these, 12, men deal with this, situation in the room. It's just it's just so thrilling to see how it plays out. And and to see that one lone German, right out of the gate saying, you know, saying, no. Let's talk about this and kind of forcing, forcing his hand by not throwing in with everybody else to actually allow for this conversation.
Andy Nelson:
I just thought that was a great representation of what the whole point of it is of having this jury. You know, you don't just pick just because you actually take the time and and have these, conversations about it. I thought that was great. And I thought it was great in the the remake that they did in TV. I thought it was great in the Russian version that they made.
Seth Nelson:
The Russian version was not on my list. I will share with
Andy Nelson:
you. Well, let me tell you it's good.
Pete Wright:
It's the same story now,
Andy Nelson:
but it's good. So, definitely something to check out.
Seth Nelson:
I will tell you from a legal perspective, there are psychologists and other paid professionals that focus entirely on picking a jury.
Andy Nelson:
Sure. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
But I, to this day, explain to my clients that when you are walking into court or driving to court, you never know who sees you and how they will respond. If you cut that car off and flick them a bird, and it turns out that that was the judge's bailiff or judicial assistant, it's not supposed to influence the judge. And they might not even hear about it, but the judges know. I mean, they talk about lawyers. Lawyers talk about judges.
Seth Nelson:
Bayless talk about everybody. Jay's, like, they know who's the kind of troubled lawyers and the difficult lawyers. And, I mean, your reputation matters and how you act in, like, to your point that these people have their own stuff wrapped up in that. So from a presentation point of view in court is you always have to act professionally. You always have to do your job.
Seth Nelson:
You always on all levels with everybody you deal with, not just the the judge or the jury.
Pete Wright:
I I've never actually been on a jury. I've been I've shown up. I've always done my part, but I'm always sent home. I've never done it. Is this I mean, is this what it's like?
Pete Wright:
Does it meet expectations?
Seth Nelson:
I've never been in a jury. I've been just like you. I show up and they it right when they hear you're a lawyer, you're done. You're out.
Andy Nelson:
You're out. Oh, sure. Sure. My father-in-law was in a, he was in a jury for a big murder trial that actually ended up, like, you know, 2020 came out and interviewed all the jurors when it was all said and done. He was doing it for quite a while.
Andy Nelson:
And I think the one big takeaway is that the compensation that they provide you is it's it's almost it's a pittance. It's it's really just like a pound of stress. That was really
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Coke and a white bread sandwich and, $2 or something like that. Alright. Pretty much. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
We're doing our part, Andy. We're doing our part. What do you got?
Seth Nelson:
We are. We are. Alright.
Andy Nelson:
For my first pick, I'm going with something a little more fanciful, something that I think fits for the time of year, and I think just is a delight of a film to watch. I love watching it with my family around the holidays, and it is of course, miracle on 34th Street, the 1947 film that, George Seaton directed in which, Edmund Gwen plays, Chris Kringle and and, is out to kind of point out the fact that the, the drunk Santa that's part of the Macy's Thanksgiving day parade is drunk and ends up taking over and then ends up working at Macy's. And it just kind of, goes from there as he ends up, with, Maureen O'Hara and, her daughter, Natalie Wood playing Susan, who doesn't believe in Santa. And he sets out to kind of prove that he is Santa. Meanwhile, a whole other story is happening where, he hits somebody on the head with an umbrella who's, who's being a pest and this guy tries to get him committed to a hospital.
Andy Nelson:
And of course that is where the, the, the court situation comes in because now there's a. A trial to prove that he is actually Santa. And it's, it's, you know, it's one of those things where it never feels that authentic because, you know, it's a trial to prove somebody's Santa Claus. It's a little silly. But when they bring in that big bag of mail, I tell you, it's it just tugs at the heartstrings a little bit.
Andy Nelson:
So that's my first pick.
Seth Nelson:
See, so you're going to
Pete Wright:
the heartstrings. Soft p.
Seth Nelson:
On the jury, he's going for the heartstrings. You know? Yeah. Right. Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
Bag of them.
Pete Wright:
Does your client have a puppy? That's gonna get that that'll
Andy Nelson:
do that. All I need. Yeah. That's all I need.
Pete Wright:
Litigating Christmas. Have you ever had to litigate a, a national or an international, holiday?
Seth Nelson:
I have litigated who gets holidays. There we go. Not whether anyone is or is not Santa Claus.
Pete Wright:
All right. Well, it'll give you something to aspire to.
Seth Nelson:
There you go.
Andy Nelson:
There's always a chance. Maybe maybe Chris and his wife will have problems
Seth Nelson:
at some point and need
Pete Wright:
you. Alright. Seth, it's back to you.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. So that was not on my list. That is not a steal.
Pete Wright:
Not a steal. Alright. Fine neither.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. I'm very interested to see if this is gonna be a steal because I went back in the day, and there's a reason I picked this movie. The paper chase 1973. Oh, it's on your list?
Pete Wright:
Well done, Seth. That is amazing. I am a huge John Hausman fan, and I when I was a kid, I I would walk around and say things like,
Seth Nelson:
we make money the old fashioned way. We earn it. Right?
Pete Wright:
From his, his take on the commercial. I I I I just love this because this is all about, like, Harvard. Right? The experience of law school.
Seth Nelson:
Yes. It's really about the 1st year of law school, and law school is 3 years. And the saying goes, the 1st year, they scare you to death. The 2nd year, they work you to death. And the 3rd year, they bore you to death.
Seth Nelson:
And people that have gone through law school that are really involved tend to say, Yeah, that makes sense to me. And the reason why I picked this is my mother is an attorney. And in fact, my grandfather and my grandmother met at Fordham Law School night school. So my grandmother was an attorney as well. And my uncle on my mom's side is attorney, a long list.
Seth Nelson:
But Wow. Growing up, we would watch paper chase the series when it was a TV series.
Andy Nelson:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
And this was just a brilliant movie, and it's all about this professor and their way this 1st year law student, James Hart, played by Timothy Bottoms, who just does a fantastic job about the academic challenges and dealing with a contract professor. And of course, there's the love interest that gets scoped in. I never dated a professor's daughter, I assure you.
Pete Wright:
But had that professor's daughter been Lindsay Wagner, you might have considered
Seth Nelson:
it. Exactly. She would have considered me, but who cares? So but this is a brilliant film about the rigors of, 1st year of, law school. And especially, you gotta kinda put yourself back in 1973.
Seth Nelson:
It's much different now with research and technology, of course, but the essence of 1st year of law school, I thought was really well done here.
Andy Nelson:
Ah, I have never seen it, nor have I ever seen the show. I
Pete Wright:
You've never even seen the show?
Andy Nelson:
I didn't even know what this movie was about. I've heard the title, but I didn't know what it was.
Pete Wright:
I I think it's curious, though. I think it's safe to say this movie like, this the TV show because I saw the movie well after I've been watching. It's kinda like MASH. Like, it was I I I saw the movie MASH to catch up on what I knew of the TV show. But I actually think the TV show and the movie were great partners with one another.
Pete Wright:
And the show, it was the first, like, drama that I would sit down and watch with my with my parents. Like, it was a thing they were super into. It introduced me to this kind of, like, soap opera, nighttime soap opera. Love it.
Andy Nelson:
I need to check it out.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. It was fun. It's I I mean, when's the last time you've seen it? Seth, when's the last time you sit sat down with Houseman?
Seth Nelson:
Actually, fairly recently. It was in 2020. I had, spinal surgery and was, at home recovering. And somehow it came on and I was like, oh, I'm watching this. Because it's the perfect movie when you're recovering from surgery because you've seen it before.
Seth Nelson:
So you fall asleep, you wake up, you know exactly where you are.
Pete Wright:
You know exactly. You didn't miss anything. Right.
Andy Nelson:
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Alright. Awesome.
Andy Nelson:
Great. Alright, Pete. Number 2 for you.
Pete Wright:
Oh, I got kind of a long list. I don't think you can have a good list of law movies without including some true bonafide singing and dancing. And so I would like to bring to your attention 2000 two's Chicago attorney, is, one Billy Flynn, played by Richard Gere in the film with Catherine j Jones and Renee Zellweger. It is a story of celebrity murderers, and Gere does a courtroom number that is to beat the band. I just I love it.
Pete Wright:
The music is great. It's a fantastic adaptation. Everybody is terrific in the movie, and we get that incredible, portrayal of, oh, now I can't remember his name. He does Cellophane Man, and I can't believe I didn't write it down.
Andy Nelson:
John c Riley.
Pete Wright:
John c Riley. John c Riley does a career turn, in this movie that I think is, it it really demonstrates, incredible breadth. Maybe there's not a whole lot of, you know, hardcore law in the movie. I don't know, Seth. Chicago?
Seth Nelson:
Not on my list. Not not a steal.
Pete Wright:
Brilliant. Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Brilliant, fun, musical movie. Have a good time. There's some very clever wording in the songs and related to the law. I have never even tried to sing in a courtroom.
Pete Wright:
Are you kidding? I'll bet you sing and dance every day.
Andy Nelson:
Here's the question, though. Would a judge stop you if you tried as long as you were still making your message, making your point?
Seth Nelson:
I believe the answer to that question is yes. And there's bailiffs that have handcuffs. Now I've cracked jokes in court before, but you have to know your audience. And when they play well
Andy Nelson:
Yeah. To the
Seth Nelson:
and I mean, remember, I just do bench trials, just judges, not not juries. But when they play well, it's brilliant. But when they land flat, it is horrible.
Andy Nelson:
So you'd have to say you'd have to know exactly the right judge where you could pull off singing a few lines of
Pete Wright:
your statement. I would like to deliver this motion in song. As long as you set it up right, I think it's important. There are a couple a couple of, fun little trivia bits. First of all, if you if you haven't seen the movie, definitely see it.
Pete Wright:
Cecil b DeMille did it in, as a silent film in 1927. Ginger Rogers, did her version of the film called Roxy Hart in 1942. In this is the piece I thought was so great. The original Broadway production of Chicago, Jerry Orbach played Billy Flynn. Jerry Orbach went on to, dare I say it, law and order TV history.
Pete Wright:
So he's just he's made a career out of, singing and dancing in court.
Seth Nelson:
It's it's great work if you can get it.
Pete Wright:
Great. If you can get it for sure. Alright. So that wasn't a steal for you, Andy. Is that what I gather?
Pete Wright:
You didn't, it was not a
Andy Nelson:
great pick though. I honestly didn't even think about that. And I'm a little ashamed of myself because it is such a great one.
Pete Wright:
Any day, Dan.
Andy Nelson:
Especially the song that he's singing in the courtroom.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right? It's such a great song. Right.
Andy Nelson:
Right. It really is.
Pete Wright:
Alright. So what's your next one?
Andy Nelson:
Well, for my next pick, I couldn't come into this conversation about law without bringing a movie that deals with divorce, knowing that Seth is a divorce attorney. And I'm like, you know, we have to have Kramer versus Kramer on this list because if there is a movie that, is a it's an incredibly solid film about relationships and the frustration of divorce and something that kind of impacted kind of the cultural ways that people view motherhood and fatherhood, especially when it comes to divorce and the fact that, you know, the father might actually be the better choice to pick to raise the kid rather than the mother. Just the way that this story plays out is really solid. And, I mean, the the scenes dealing with the custody hearings are very, very painful when you have the different character assassinations that are going on, when friends are getting forced to testify about things that they said. And it's it just shows kind of the the painful side of going through this and how it can, end up hurting people so much more over the course of the process.
Andy Nelson:
Even though by the time you get to the end of the story, they have found a way to kind of keep their relationships in a way that it will work moving forward as as hard as it was to go through. So that's my second one, Kramer versus Kramer.
Seth Nelson:
Great film. I always thought it was interesting on this film because it played against the stereotypes because she the wife is the one that leaves the family and then comes back later. Right?
Andy Nelson:
Right. And
Seth Nelson:
it's 1979. That's not really how things worked. So it kind of did
Andy Nelson:
it quick.
Seth Nelson:
It, this is a great movie. I remember seeing it as a child. We watched all the law movies in my family. So Sure. It was not on my list.
Seth Nelson:
It was not a steal, but I certainly recommend it to see kind of the emotional aspects that hopefully people can avoid when they're going through a divorce.
Pete Wright:
I can't believe that wasn't on your list. You're I I let I need to remind you. You're the divorce attorney here.
Seth Nelson:
I'm also very prepared. And knowing that on the divorce lawyer, you guys are gonna pick it for the steal. You gotta be strategic about this. That was so true.
Pete Wright:
Alright. Alright. So where does that lead to your number 3?
Seth Nelson:
Okay. So I this is just a classic. I think it's gonna be a steal as well. A few good men.
Andy Nelson:
It's on my list of backups, but it wasn't a steal.
Seth Nelson:
You know, I think you had a half point for a backup. What happens there? I'm like, every time
Andy Nelson:
I get one I object.
Pete Wright:
Perennial question.
Seth Nelson:
And his backup are if I call it and he's got another one, it's now the backup. That's right. So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna pretend I'm I'm you, Pete, for just a minute. So this was directed by Rob Minor and written by Aaron Sorkin. Like, that's how you guys talk.
Seth Nelson:
I don't talk it out a way.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. No. That's nailed it.
Seth Nelson:
Totally. What's amazing about this is Tom Cruise playing a lawyer who's defending 2 Marines who've been charged with killing another Marine at Guantanamo Bay. There are so many amazing aspects to this movie, including that performance by Jack Nicholson, who ultimately is really the one technically being put on trial here, but he's not necessarily the guy you think at the beginning. What's amazing to me about this is the performance by Tom Cruise when he tells his legal team, it's not what I know, it's what I can prove. And yeah, that just sums up litigation and going to trial.
Seth Nelson:
It's not what I know. It's what I can prove. And, those are 2 dramatically different things. I will share with you. I have a very close friend who is an excellent trial lawyer, and there is a moment in this movie when Tom Cruise asked the witness, well, which order?
Seth Nelson:
How do you know which order to obey and not to obey? And he has used that exact line in court where we're talking about orders And when he was telling me about his hearing and he said that, immediately, I said, a few good men. And he goes, absolutely.
Pete Wright:
That's not the line I was gonna pick. The line that sticks out for me is and I use this I I try to find a way to use this, but people don't talk like this that enough. Do they still string people up from the yard arm? I don't think they string people up from the yard arm anymore.
Seth Nelson:
They don't talk that way
Pete Wright:
anymore. That I need I need an opportunity to drop that.
Seth Nelson:
And of course.
Pete Wright:
So that's always the question with this movie, though, is how well does Tom Cruise sell being an attorney?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Right. I think he sells in the preparation, in the thinking, in the presentation of question and answers. Now I will tell you that when you first asked me to be on this podcast today, I was a little bit nervous about it because I typically don't enjoy legal shows because I can't turn off my mind. And when you get to the legal scenes
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
And you're in court and they ask a question, in my head, objection, speculation, objection, leading, objection, assumes facts not in evidence. It just happens. And I'm like, yeah. That's not the way it works. Love the legal shows.
Seth Nelson:
My uncle and my cousin are both doctors. They hate the medical shows. I love the medical shows. I mean, they love the legal shows. I'm like, what do you mean?
Seth Nelson:
You don't do a test and get it back in an hour? Like, you know? Right. Right. But this is a brilliant film and especially where it all comes together at the end and and how they have, like, for example, there's a big part in this where they have these airmen sitting in the gallery.
Seth Nelson:
Right? And they all think they're gonna be witnesses. If they're gonna be a witness, you can what's called invoke the rule, and they're not allowed to be in the gallery because they can't hear what other people say. If you're a witness, you gotta sit outside. So but for the movies and for what they were doing, it was brilliant.
Seth Nelson:
That would just never happen in court. But I thought that his preparation and how he thought about a case and when he was trying to figure it out, all that I thought was very well done.
Pete Wright:
That's good to know because a lot of what I'm looking for you from you in this show today is permission to continue liking these great movies. Because if you tell me they're just exceptionally stupid, then I'm gonna have to hang it up. I'm and so I'm glad I can
Seth Nelson:
Keep it.
Pete Wright:
Still use the yard arm thing. Alright.
Andy Nelson:
You can tell I don't really care about that that bringing in
Pete Wright:
movies Oh, no.
Andy Nelson:
Where bags of mail. That's all I need. Right?
Pete Wright:
Your first pick is Santa Claus movies. That's great. No. We know exactly where you stand. Okay.
Pete Wright:
So that takes me to my, number 3 pick. Oh, I think I need to go, back in time again, for this pick, and and it was actually the number one movie on my list of picks. It's the first thing I think of when I think about legal movies, and it is from 1962. It is the wonderful Gregory Peck starring as Atticus Finch in a Horton Foote's, penned screenplay, young Brock Peters as the alleged assailant in To Kill A Mockingbird. I No.
Pete Wright:
That was a steal. Legit steal. Andy Copts is a legit steal.
Seth Nelson:
You call him out on it, and the next one.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Let me just say, I'm gonna, speaking of calling his shots, if Andy doesn't pick in the name of the father as a legal drama here, I'm gonna eat my hat. Get ready.
Pete Wright:
It's coming. It's coming. I I really like this movie. I I love it. I have a deep personal connection to it.
Pete Wright:
It was one of the very first books. Like, I I sat down. My mother says, here, read this book. You're gonna love this book. And I absolutely loved this book, the whole story, the way it's and and the way it has been adapted here in this movie.
Pete Wright:
It's just really it's just perfect for me. Chef's kiss. What do you think? How is it with the law?
Andy Nelson:
Well, Pete, when it comes to the law in this particular film, no. It's it's a great film. I I love the film. I love the way that it actually play, you know, the story of the law and the lessons learned, in the film and, and the whole idea, especially in, in the place it takes place in the time. It's a very powerful story and it, you know, because of that and those reasons, it was absolutely on my list, very powerful.
Andy Nelson:
And, yeah, sad law story.
Seth Nelson:
As it relates to the law, there is as we're lawyers are called an officer of the court. So you always have to be candid and truthful with the court. I don't remember ever watching this movie. I am embarrassed to say.
Andy Nelson:
But we know what your homework is now.
Pete Wright:
Oh, sad.
Seth Nelson:
I'm I I it's one of those movies I think that when I watch it, I'll be like, oh, yeah. I remember now. But sitting here at this present moment, I cannot speak intelligently about how the law played out.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
Sorry to disappoint.
Andy Nelson:
It was one of those that I read first. Like, I I know we read this in school. In fact, it might have been one of those where we read it. And then after we were done, the teacher showed us the movie. I feel like that might have been the situation where I first read and watched it.
Andy Nelson:
So but that it's it's just one that's, I think, such a such a classic story about just being human, and Gregory Peck really is the perfect embodiment for that. So
Pete Wright:
I I think the yeah. Gregory Peck and Robert Duvall as as Boo Radley. I mean, Robert Duvall is just, he's exceptional, and they're all so young. That's one of the things that makes us really fun to go back and and look at. Although Robert Duvall looked exactly as he does now, that's weird.
Pete Wright:
And I bring up
Andy Nelson:
the truth.
Pete Wright:
I bring up Brock Peters specifically because he is such a great admiral Cartwright in the Star Trek film universe, and I I just I love watching those movies and thinking about, you know, where he was in the early sixties. It it's a terrific movie. If you haven't seen it, definitely check it out. If you're a lawyer and haven't seen it, you're gonna fall in love with Atticus Finch. He's he's the aspirational, attorney.
Pete Wright:
He's a great a stand up human being and a great dad.
Seth Nelson:
I've been embarrassed that I had to acknowledge that.
Pete Wright:
Hey. You're an officer of the court. Consider the court, please. Alright. Who's next?
Andy Nelson:
Alright. Well, I'm going to go with 1. I you know, I you gotta have some laughs. And I know I already have Santa Claus on this list, but, you know, some real big laughs. I laughed my butt off when I went to see, Liar Liar in 1997, Tom Shadyac's film with Jim Carrey as the crooked lawyer whose son wishes that his dad could just tell the truth for a whole day.
Andy Nelson:
And it turns into one of the funniest, things as he's in a divorce court trying to trying to help this, his client who is this gold digger, but he has to go about it in a way where he's only telling the truth And watching that court scene when, he's trying to do that and seeing how it all plays out as he brings up, I think her age is the whole thing. She'd lied about her age, which canceled out the whole, prenup and everything. It was, just incredibly funny that was, Jim Carey and Jennifer Tilly was his client. And, you know, it's I don't know. It just worked incredibly well for me.
Andy Nelson:
Very funny. And every time I hear Jose Canseco's name now, like, I just, this is the movie that I immediately go to. So that's my pick Liar Liar. I have no idea how it works in the in the real world as far as law.
Pete Wright:
But he's shaking his head, Andy.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. He's shaking his head.
Andy Nelson:
A little
Seth Nelson:
shaky. Let's just leave it at that.
Pete Wright:
Okay. I I like the movie, Andy. I'm in your corner. It's not an it's not a steal, and it wasn't in my backup list. And I I share a little bit of shame that I didn't even think of it because I have a whole list of movies, and some of them aren't as good as that one.
Pete Wright:
No comment on the law. Alright. Seth, you're up for, number 4, and this will be our last round. We're gonna we have 4 movies each, our last round, so make it count.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. I'm going against what I said earlier. I threw you a little curve ball, and now I'm coming back to it. So I think you're not gonna get a steal.
Pete Wright:
K.
Seth Nelson:
Intolerable cruelty. It's on your list?
Andy Nelson:
Some Coen Brothers, It's not.
Pete Wright:
It's not. It's not a steal.
Seth Nelson:
So this movie is hilarious. Not anything to do with the law. So I can deal with the comedies when I guess, you know, but, in Clooney is just mesmerizing to me about how funny he was in this movie, playing a divorce lawyer who also is working on a prenup called the Massey prenup, which they say is unbreakable. This has no no relation to legal reality in any way, shape, or form.
Pete Wright:
It's the Coen Brothers cinematic
Andy Nelson:
universe. Right.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. But absolutely hilarious. And, with Billy Bob Thornton in it and, Catherine Zeta Jones and how they all work together and against each other. And when they're negotiating and they're talking about case law, which is supposed to explain the way that the statutes are written, hilarious, nothing to do with the law. And Pete, I know that you might eat your hat, but in this movie, Billy Bob Thornton dips the Massey prenup that is unbreakable into barbecue sauce, tears it up and eats it before he gets married.
Seth Nelson:
Now check your local jurisdiction. But on the advice of counsel, I don't know any lawyer, no matter what jurisdiction would recommend that you do, that you take such actions?
Pete Wright:
Noted noted counselor. I actually I like that movie a lot. And I think, Andy, I can't remember. Is that one of the Coens that you're not as much of a fan of?
Andy Nelson:
I I enjoy it. It's one that I don't, I feel like I probably need to rewatch it. I remember laughing quite a bit in the theaters, but then it's one that I, like, I don't remember very well. The one thing that always sticks in my mind from is Tenzing Norgay. Like, that whole conversation that he has with, like, his his assistant or whatever, like, that is the thing that I remember from that movie.
Andy Nelson:
Not much else.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. And I
Seth Nelson:
can't I think to enjoy the movie because you guys are big movie buffs, and I really work all the time. So you guys are far ahead of me in this area of expertise. I don't know what you guys do for a living, but,
Pete Wright:
I
Seth Nelson:
don't think you can compare it to a Coen Brothers movie. If you do that, you're asking to be disappointed.
Pete Wright:
That's a fair assessment.
Andy Nelson:
Interesting. Interesting. Okay.
Pete Wright:
But it it's funny because to compare it to something like, Oh, Brother, which is another Clooney, you know, and and talk about this and we're running from the law. And, it is, I think it's it's funny because they do have such different, like, tones, that and it doesn't it feels like they could be created by different people. But I'm I'm I'm a fan. Andy's nuts. He needs to watch it.
Andy Nelson:
Well, I do need to watch it. And, you know, the Coen Brothers definitely fluctuate with me. Some of them I love. Some of them I really don't like at all. And some of them are in that middle ground where I'm like, I probably need to rewatch that one.
Andy Nelson:
And this is in that middle ground. I remember really laughing a lot in the theater, but it also just, it never stuck with me. So I I'll give it a rewatch and I'll report back.
Pete Wright:
I'll be waiting.
Andy Nelson:
With baited breath. I'm sure.
Pete Wright:
Bated breath. Indeed. Alright. That takes it to me for number 4 and, oh, dear. Alright.
Pete Wright:
I'm gonna I'm gonna take one because I'm very very excited to hear Seth's comment on this movie even though it's not really one of my favorite movies. It's about someone who's still alive and, dare I say, a figure of controversy. I'm talking about the Dershowitz, as portrayed by Ron Silver as he's defending Jeremy Irons playing Klaus von Bulow Bulow? Bueller? Bueller?
Pete Wright:
Klaus von Bulow.
Andy Nelson:
That's a very cute movie mashup.
Pete Wright:
Accused of that von Bulow. Murdering his wife, Sunny von Bulow. And, this movie is, of course, Reversal of Fortune 1990. Have you seen it? What do you think of Dershowitz?
Seth Nelson:
I have seen it. Andy, have you?
Andy Nelson:
I have. It's one of my, favorites. I Jeremy Irons is brilliant in that film. And I am embarrassed
Seth Nelson:
that I
Andy Nelson:
didn't even think about it for this list. It's such a great film.
Pete Wright:
I'm embarrassed for you.
Seth Nelson:
I I you guys are experts in this. And this brings me a lot of comfort. Because as we go through this list, you tell me how you didn't think about it, and you're embarrassed. And I never share this with clients, but I do share it with lawyers that sometimes I think to myself as I'm walking back to my office from the courthouse. That's when I come up with my best legal argument.
Seth Nelson:
It's like just a little too late. Like I should have said that. I should have said it this way.
Pete Wright:
You know, the the the French have have, have a term for that. They call it escalator humor. Right? It's when you come up with a great one liner when it's just too late when you're already on the escalator leaving the scene. And I think you are a practitioner of escalator law.
Pete Wright:
True.
Seth Nelson:
Now I'm gonna defend myself here in case
Andy Nelson:
any potential clients are listening.
Seth Nelson:
I give the AA answer, maybe a plus. The ones I'm talking about are the a plus plus. Okay.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right. The a plus with a little steak
Seth Nelson:
on it. Right?
Pete Wright:
The the the a plus with a curve. Alright. What do you think of what do you think of, of the Dutch stuff?
Seth Nelson:
First off, I think he's just a fascinating figure in life and in theater and the whole his whole career is pretty interesting. I'm always a little suspect when there are movies out that are trying to portray someone and how things really went. But he is brilliant. No matter what your views of him are, the really serious focus of attorneys that everybody's entitled to representation goes back to the very beginning of our society during the Boston Massacre, because those guys were defended and beat the rap. And most people don't realize that.
Seth Nelson:
And I think that being a lawyer is really important because John Adams represented the guys accused of the Boston Massacre. And people don't realize that, but everybody's entitled to a competent legal counsel. And I think just portraying people, you gotta be careful about what movies really say compared to who they are. Everyone has their own viewpoint.
Andy Nelson:
Sure.
Pete Wright:
And we could be talking about James Woods and his portrayal of Rudy Giuliani.
Seth Nelson:
He could just keep going down the list.
Pete Wright:
They never they never went to the 4 seasons. But but we could talk about that. Andy, what do you think?
Andy Nelson:
Alright. I I love it. It's a, you know, it's a strong, strong movie, powerful. And Jeremy Irons is wicked in that role.
Pete Wright:
Just he
Andy Nelson:
I mean, wicked, brilliant. But he it just and I love that final moment, right at the end of the film when he goes into a a pharmacy to pick up some cigarettes or something. And then he throws in to the lady, oh, and a vial of insulin. And then just gives her a wink. Just kidding.
Pete Wright:
And it's just like, oh, wow.
Andy Nelson:
He is just playing it all the time.
Pete Wright:
He can get away with anything. And there's that great sequence. I should have written down the line. There's this great sequence when, when Silver is is talking to him, and and I think it's it's when he is trying to describe, like, the circumstances of what's happening. He's going into this to this story, and and Silver, as Dershowitz says, now stop.
Pete Wright:
Never let the client explain anything. Well, why not? Well, it puts them in uncomfortable positions. What uncomfortable position? Lying.
Pete Wright:
Right? Like, that's his greatest great one liner that I can't I I, like, I wish I could get the setup right because when he looks and says lying, it's like, of course of course, you don't want people to talk in the courtroom. Just shut up. Let me do the work. That's that's the lesson I learned from this, from this film.
Pete Wright:
So Reversal of Fortune 1990, great, example. So there you go. Andy, number 4.
Andy Nelson:
Alright. For my final pick, I am going with another one that I think, you know, I think might have opened some people's eyes to to the world of victim blaming, slut shaming, women's empowerment, PTSD, all of this sort of stuff. It's, Jonathan Kaplan's film from 1988, the accused with Kelly McGillis as the assistant DA helping Jodie Foster who had been, raped in she was a waitress in a bar and was gang raped by a group of men cheering, cheered on by a bunch of onlookers. And because she had a checkered past, they were just trying to do a plea bargain initially and to get these guys off. But, the assistant DA says or no.
Andy Nelson:
She's deputy DA. She says, no. You know, we need to, help her. And they, they get her on the stand and it's, testify and everything. And it's, even then, it doesn't seem like it's going to because you can't identify them.
Andy Nelson:
And but, finally, one of the, the frack guys feels so much guilt from the whole thing that he does testify and and all of that. So it's I just found it to be an incredibly powerful film about how even just because somebody doesn't look like they are necessarily the innocent one in a situation, they may actually be. And so I thought it was a an incredibly strong film with an incredibly strong performance by Jodie Foster. And so that's, that's my final pick here.
Pete Wright:
And Kelly McGillis and Kelly McGillis. She gets, like, she's because Jodie Foster is so good, I think they that, you know, Kelly McGillis gets gets short triffed in this movie. She's exceptional True. To my She
Andy Nelson:
is exceptional. Absolutely. Yeah. A lot more than what she had to do with top gun. How's the law in this one, Seth?
Andy Nelson:
Do you remember this one?
Seth Nelson:
You know what? This film I have not thought of in years. I saw this film when it came out, but I also saw it in a society through film class that I took in college.
Andy Nelson:
Mhmm. Okay.
Seth Nelson:
And this was the exact issue that we were dealing with about how, you have to look at what happened in this specific instance, not just what you believe someone's, personality may be or their past may be. How does it relate to this instance in the law? Very powerful film, very powerful performance. Really enjoyed it. Have not even thought of this film in probably 20 some odd years.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
But right when you brought it up, boy, I was right back in that in that film and then, you know, in that very enjoyable class that I took. So it's a good pick.
Pete Wright:
It's one of those that I've always believed because the they get so much of the other, like, cultural stuff right. You know, the stuff that I do know about, the movie making pieces of it, they get so right in that movie that it makes it allows me to either suspend belief around the law or just sort of kind of let it wash over me that it's something that I I believe that they wouldn't get all the other stuff right without doing due diligence on the the law and getting that right too. I I like to think so, anyway. Yeah. I hope so.
Pete Wright:
Alright. Let's do let's do a round robin. Any of our you know, Andy has an extensive list of backup movies on this Alright. I had
Seth Nelson:
a thing that goes on forever.
Andy Nelson:
As always.
Pete Wright:
Right? I can't believe that the name of the father didn't hit this didn't drop on this list. It crushes me.
Andy Nelson:
I I had reason. I'll tell you in a moment.
Pete Wright:
Alright. Well, Seth, do you have any other films rapid fire that you feel like need to be included, not as primary picks, but just get them out there?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Legally Blonde. Hilarious.
Andy Nelson:
Oh, such a great movie.
Pete Wright:
I can't believe I didn't think about that.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. It was actually almost on the top of my list, but I went more serious than that. I thought Philadelphia in 1993 was brilliant. Erin, Brockovich.
Andy Nelson:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
But, like, all these kind of like, some are fun. But some are just the one that was really presumed innocent. Yeah. With Harrison Ford, I thought it was a brilliant, legal movie, and how all that played out. And then I have to end that, and I might have picked too many for mine, but you cannot talk about movies and not name a film called The Firm.
Pete Wright:
Oh my god. I did not have The Firm on my list.
Seth Nelson:
And you know why it wasn't on my list? It was all strategic. I thought legally blonde, you guys might have tried to steal, and so that was why it was on my list not because I didn't like it. I was very strategic. And I actually lived on Grand Cayman for 3 years, and I Pete, I thought you knew that, and so I thought you might think, oh, he's definitely going for the firm.
Seth Nelson:
So I was much more strategic than just picking great movies that I like.
Pete Wright:
Crushes me.
Seth Nelson:
That is also a great movie about the now that had all the intricacies of scandal and breaking the law and law firms, but, being at a big firm and, how they treat their 1st year associates, when all you do is work, work, work, work, work. And I'm not saying that anyone should have sympathy for any 1st year associates practicing law, but I just found that it was a it was a great movie.
Andy Nelson:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
And I didn't wanna keep going back to Tom Cruise after I did the If
Pete Wright:
you're gonna do 2 movies with Tom Cruise, you have to do them all. Like, there's any other where he's even loosely connected to the law.
Andy Nelson:
I have then it's and you could easily have done all John Grisham. I mean, since you bring him up, it's like
Seth Nelson:
his time to kill. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's easy. The
Andy Nelson:
client, the runway journey.
Pete Wright:
Do you wanna do the Denzel Washington subgenre of John Grisham movie? I, I would throw in, 1957 witness for the prosecution, Charles Laughton, Elsa Lanchester, Tyrone Power, Marlene Dietrich, Billy Wilder, Agatha Christie adaptation, great movie. Breaker Morant, I had on my list, war crimes in South Africa against the British Empire Empire, a Bruce Paris film. I did have Philadelphia on my list, too. And if not for any of the reasons that you talked about, it would be for Bruce Springsteen, because that song is amazing.
Pete Wright:
And, then Presumed Innocent also on my list, and I I brought it up specifically because I did wanna hear what you thought of Scott Turow and these you know, the writers of books who are also lawyers writing now thrillers. Like, and we don't have to talk about it now. Maybe it'll be for next year's,
Seth Nelson:
Real short, they're brilliant. They got out of practicing law. Well done, Thomas.
Pete Wright:
Alright. Great. Alright. Good answer. My last, and I there's a a trivia.
Pete Wright:
Alan j Pakula produced Presumed Innocent, and he also produced Mockingbird. So I wanted to have that little pair on the list. And we've we've done a whole series of Pakula films on our show. And, finally, Judgment at Nuremberg 1961.
Seth Nelson:
Oh, of course.
Pete Wright:
Fantastic Spencer Tracy film. Love it. Love it. Love it. And that would have given me 2 Marlene Dietrich movies.
Pete Wright:
You know, there's just too many movies to talk about. Andy, what do you got?
Andy Nelson:
There are so many. Let us Well, you've you've said a lot of mine. But Oh,
Seth Nelson:
now we've said that. When the scoring is over
Andy Nelson:
That's right.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. The
Pete Wright:
scoring's over.
Andy Nelson:
I'll just tell you. Now the verdict absolutely, is I think just a brilliant film with Paul Newman, dealing with that case. And he's just he's really like the perfect example of a rundown attorney who's who is brought on to this case. I I think that's a fantastic film. Marriage story is another one.
Andy Nelson:
It's more about the kind of the marriage and the divorce. But, certainly, once you get into all the the divorce attorney, bits, I mean, Laura Dern is fantastic as as the lawyer in that one. And Alan Alda is great as the other one. You know, that was a great one. I had Philadelphia on my list.
Andy Nelson:
I did have witness for the prosecution in in the name of the father on my list, but I I decided I was just gonna stick with American, legal films, not any particular reason, but I just had such a big list. And then, I had Michael Clayton on, which isn't really kind of a law, like, law movie per se, but it does deal with kind of there's this, class action lawsuit that is happening kind of in the background of all of this. But, really, it's about this fixer coming in trying to fix things, dealing with this, the lawyer who had a mental breakdown. So, yeah. Those are my
Pete Wright:
Nice list. This was a lot
Andy Nelson:
of fun. Good ones.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. So many good ones. Seth, thank you so much
Andy Nelson:
for What's
Seth Nelson:
the final to bring?
Pete Wright:
Well, the the, let's see. You had, were any of yours stolen? 12 angry men was stolen. So you had, 4 plus 2 minus 1, so you ended up with 5. I had, 12 angry men was a double steal.
Pete Wright:
So I had 4 plus 2 plus 1, 7. Andy had 4 minus, did you was did you have To Kill A Mockingbird and
Andy Nelson:
That was a steal.
Pete Wright:
12 Angry Men was a steal. That was a steal. Minus 2. Oh, so I had 6 because I lost, no. I had 5 because I lost my cousin Vinny and the paper chase, and Andy had 4 minus 2.
Pete Wright:
So we had 2, 5, and I think that makes you
Seth Nelson:
So you and I tied 5. Yeah. And and Andy came in a distant third.
Pete Wright:
Yep. A distant 3rd.
Andy Nelson:
Way down the bottom.
Pete Wright:
And let's let's go back to the number of times Andy says he is ashamed that he didn't think of Moose. So he has a distant 3rd with Shane.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And
Pete Wright:
that's like a that's like a bonus trailer.
Seth Nelson:
Right. That's like when you get an award with distinction, he has it with shame.
Andy Nelson:
Right. Hey.
Seth Nelson:
I have
Andy Nelson:
a wall covered with awards with distinction.
Pete Wright:
That's a the shameful mention award. It's just a piece of road. It's an award. This is really fun, Seth. Thank you so much for hanging out with us and talking law movies.
Pete Wright:
We'll have to find a new twist on this for next year's event. But, look Thanks for having
Seth Nelson:
me, guys. Really enjoy it.
Pete Wright:
If you're interested in if you are listening to this because you are in some way engaged in divorce, but you also like movies, check out the next reel over at, you can just go to the next reel.com. That'll take you to our our site, and you can see all the movies that Andy and I have talked about over the many, many years. If you are a movie lover and your life is somehow embroiled in a divorce and you wanna get some more insights on it on how to navigate that process within the law, then you wanna check out how to split a toaster, a divorce podcast for saving your relationships with the good and kind set. Check your jurisdiction, Nelson. Thanks everybody for listening.
Pete Wright:
We sure appreciate your time and attention. We'll catch you next time on, all of the great shows. Thanks for listening everybody.
