Eleanor Shearer: Author of River Sing Me Home

This week, Jack is joined by debut author Eleanor Shearer. Eleanor’s novel River Sing Me Home was published on the 19th of January. The story follows Rachel, who after escaping slavery goes on the search for her missing children. Jeanette Winterson called it "a strong and beautiful novel that stares into the face of brutality and the heart of love".

Purchase River Sing Me Home

(1:16) Becoming a debut author
(3:57) Eleanor's children's book of choice
(9:44) Writing while working
(13:34) Eleanor's recent read
(20:15) The influences behind River Sing Me Home
(35:05) River Sing Me Home

Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, a weekly podcast by the independent award-winning bookshop, Mostly Books. Nestled in the Oxfordshire town of Abingdon-on-Thames, Mostly Books has been spreading the joy of reading for fifteen years. Whether it’s a book, gift, or card you need the Mostly Books team is always on hand to help. Visit our website.

The podcast is produced and presented by Jack Wrighton and the team at Mostly Books. It is edited by Story Ninety-Four. Find us on Twitter @mostlyreading & Instagram @mostlybooks_shop.

Meet the host:
Jack Wrighton is a bookseller and social media manager at Mostly Books. His hobbies include photography and buying books at a quicker rate than he can read them.
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River Sing Me Home is published in the UK by Headline Review

Books mentioned in this episode include:
Anne of Green Gables by L.M. Montgomery - ISBN: 9781840227840
Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen - ISBN: 9780141199078
Barkskins by Annie Proulx - ISBN: 9780007232017
Beloved by Toni Morrison - ISBN: 9780099511656

To find more titles, visit our website

Creators & Guests

Host

Mostly Books

Award-winning indie bookshop in Abingdon, Oxfordshire.

What is Mostly Books Meets...?

Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, a podcast by the independent bookshop, Mostly Books. Booksellers from an award-winning indie bookshop chatting books and how they have shaped people's lives, with a whole bunch of people from the world of publishing - authors, poets, journalists and many more. Join us for the journey.

Jack Wrighton - 0:05
Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, the weekly podcast for the incurably bookish. We will be talking to authors and creatives from across the world of publishing and discussing the books they have loved. Looking for a recommendation? Then look no further. Head to your favourite cosy spot and let us pick out your next favourite book. Hello, Jack here. At Mostly Books Meets we always strive for the best but unfortunately tech isn't always on our side and during the following recording we had some issues. Luckily our guest, Eleanor Shearer comes through crystal clear. You'll just have to forgive me for my less than the best audio. Welcome to the Mostly Books Meets podcast.
00:50
Today I'm speaking to debut author Eleanor Shearer. Eleanor’s novel River Sing Me Home was published on the 19th of January. The story follows Rachel, who after escaping slavery goes on the search for her missing children. It is a beautiful reflection on family and on freedom. Jeanette Winterson called it "a strong and beautiful novel that stares into the face of brutality and the heart of love." Eleanor, welcome to Mostly Books Meets.
Eleanor Shearer - 1:14
Thank you so much for having me.
Jack Wrighton - 1:16
Our absolute pleasure. Now how does it feel as a debut novelist? Of course your book is out there in the world. We've had it in the shop. Actually, a customer heard me talking to another customer about your book the other day, because I was reading it for the podcast, and they were like, "Oh, where is that book?" And they ended up buying it. So we've already sold one in the shop.
Eleanor Shearer - 1:35
Well, thanks very much.
Jack Wrighton - 1:37
That's all right. That's all right. That's exactly what we're here for. But for you, you've spent a long time, I imagine, with this novel and it sounds like with the story, which has sort of personal elements to you, this has been sort of a long time in the works, as many novels are. So how does it feel that it's now sort of out in the world.
Eleanor Shearer - 1:53
It feels incredibly surreal but I think also as you said it's such a long time coming that I was talking to another writer friend of mine the other day and I had my launch party last week which was lovely and then I woke up the next day and thought I feel exactly the same but in a good way you know as all life events are you think you might wake up and all of your ills will be cured all of your anxiety is gone and that's just not how it works so I said in a good way I feel like my life has not changed, I feel quite steady about it and she said, oh, when I had my debut published, I did feel like my life changed.
2:26
But actually, it's the accumulation of those small moments over time. So it's not like the boundary between the book being published and not published feels… it does feel momentous, but it doesn't feel life changing and actually, when I look back at the last few years, it's the sort of accomplishment of having finished the novel even when no one had read it, it's the excitement of getting to say to my family, oh it's had an offer in from a publisher, it's the wonderful writers I've got to connect with through this journey. It's like lots of little moments have made the thing feel wonderful rather than the one big thing that it feels like you're building up to. Actually, when the launch came I realised, ah, I've already done all the hard work to be able to celebrate this, if that makes sense.
Jack Wrighton - 3:09
No, that absolutely makes sense and I think everyone, particularly people who come to the shop, maybe you're not aware of exactly sort of how many steps there are in the process to a book being written, to being published. So I can imagine for yourself it sort of feels, you know, there's no one sort of, you know, yes there's a launch party and yes there's this day where the book comes out but actually, particularly with proofs existing, you know, I'm sure you have many people, you know, reading at booksellers, book reviewers reading it sort of before. So it kind of enters the world a bit earlier on really, kind of the moment you're sending it out to agents, to publishers, that's kind of I suppose it's kind of first outing outside of your kind of loyal work of people you might sort of share work with.
Eleanor Shearer - 3:54
Yeah, yeah absolutely.
Jack Wrighton - 3:57
And in the Mostly Books Meets Podcast we always talk to authors about the books that have inspired them, the books that they love, because as booksellers ourselves you know that's what we kind of do is our job and that's how we get the right books into people's hands. So starting with childhood, let's say you're a bookseller with us and someone comes in and they're looking for a children's book, any children's book, and they ask you to recommend one that you've always loved. What book are you picking off the shelf? What book are you bringing over?
Eleanor Shearer - 4:28
I'm bringing over Anne of Green Gables by L.M. Montgomery. What I'd say about it to and persuade someone to buy it is that it is completely transporting. I think I was read it as a child so I have these wonderful memories of my mum doing all of the voices and accents whilst reading this tale but it meant I was too almost too young to understand where exactly it was set. I just understood that it was set it almost felt like a fantasy land to me and the fact that it is in this magical place that the orphan Anne goes to in Canada.
5:04
So that was the first thing that really appealed to me as a child, this sense of being let into a world that was so familiar but so strange, both a different historical time and a different place. But also for any child that loves magic, reading, imagination, the fact that the heroine is so wonderfully imaginative and brings a sense of magic and imagination to all of the people that she meets. I think I loved that about her and identified very strongly with her when I was being read this book. So I have so many special memories of reading Anne of Green Gables and I would love other children of new generations to pick it up and discover it.
Jack Wrighton - 5:44
It's funny, it's one on the podcast we've had come up just a couple of times. I'm not saying, don't worry, I'm not sort of saying every author.
Eleanor Shearer - 5:53
Everyone does it.
Jack Wrighton - 5:55
Anne of Green Gables and interestingly for me because I will fully admit I was not much of a reader as a child so actually fiction came for me a lot later so I haven't read it but I feel like I should do because so many people talk about it as very very formative and very inspiring and it's interesting, I feel there must be you know you talk about the main character being you know that she has this kind of great imagination, it makes sense then that people who are writers now sort of go to that book as kind of one that's really, really inspired them.
Eleanor Shearer - 6:26
Yeah.

Jack Wrighton - 6:26
Am I right in saying somewhere I saw that your parents were formerly actors?
Eleanor Shearer - 6:31
So, yes, yeah, I was, I was very lucky to grow up in this very kind of Bohemian creative family. So my parents were actors, that's actually how they met doing a show together and then after they had kids, they kind of transitioned. So my dad ended up doing writing, journalism, freelance stuff and my mum became a film and TV producer. But it was great for me in this journey to becoming a writer. My godmother is a writer as well actually. So I always knew that it was possible to make a life creatively and I think for so many people that is one of the biggest barriers to overcome just in terms of your own confidence in setting out to write something. So I've always considered myself very fortunate in that regard. But it did mean that I had a lot of great bedtime stories because, like I say, my parents would do all the voices, so I was lucky also for that.
Jack Wrighton - 7:28
I was just about to say that's a pretty impressive way to receive bedtime stories with voices. That always makes it so much more enjoyable. One thing that's interesting, speaking to other writers, I mean obviously it depends on the individual, but you hear some writers kind of do really well with descriptions but they maybe struggle with sort of dialogue. I don't know, coming from a theatrical family, do you feel that helped with you know in terms of your own writing process with things like dialogue or with characters because obviously being able to sort of hear that character's voice in your head must be, you know such a kind of crucial element. Do you feel that helped in any way or is that not sort of relevant?
Eleanor Shearer - 8:09
No it's such an interesting question because I actually think I am someone who struggles with dialogue and the writing that my dad's done it's a bit of, as I say, kind of journalism and freelance stuff but he has also written screenplays, so for him he's writing in this media that was almost entirely dialogue so unfortunately that gene has not been passed on to me but the thing that did help me a lot actually is it was my dad who said to me and like you know when you get given advice and you don't take it for ages and then when you take it it works so well you're always angry with yourself for not doing it earlier and when I left university and was working, but was thinking, I've always wanted to be a writer, I would want to give this a go, I wasn't really sure if I wanted to do non-fiction fiction and my dad said, write every day and just build a habit of it. You have to almost treat it like a job.
8:56
It's not, you can't just kind of wait for inspiration to strike and I was sitting there thinking, oh, I'm sure inspiration will come along, or I'm not really feeling it today and then it was only when I started this, my first novel, River Sing Me Home, that I actually started writing every day and that was the only way for me personally that I could get the whole book and it worked so well for me that yeah I was grateful to my dad for providing that insight but also annoyed with myself that it had been about a year of faffing around before I actually took his advice.
Jack Wrighton - 9:23
There's nothing worse than you know I did hearing someone's advice and going yes I don't know if that'll work for me I'm quite busy." And then you do it and then, yeah, it's eating humble pie. And what was that process like for you? Because am I right, you live between Ramsgate and London?
Eleanor Shearer - 9:43
Yeah
Jack Wrighton - 9:44
And you have a job outside of writing. So how did you fit in this part, this creating River Sing Me Home?
Eleanor Shearer - 9:51
Yeah, so I wrote most of River Sing Me Home during the lockdowns in 2020, where I had young people that were in London gone back to live with my parents who are in Ramsgate, on the coast and I was very fortunate doing a job that allowed me to work from home and I just thought to myself I'm never going to have more free time than I do now so if I don't try to write this book now I'll know that you know time was not the excuse and so that was what kind of kicked me into gear to start this process of writing every day and as I said for me I think the thing… I know lots of other writers that do not write in order, they'll write kind of whatever scene they're feeling that day, but for me I have to start a draft at the beginning and work until I get to the end and I was so worried about losing momentum or giving up that I set myself a manageable word count of 500 words every day and then I literally did not take a single day off until I had a full draft and that's including there was one day when we were out of lockdown and I think I drove to pick my partner up from Guildford, drove back, we got home at about midnight, I had to open my laptop and write those 500 words. I was so rigid about it. But for me, it really was, I was so sure that I would not be able to keep this momentum going if I didn't do it every day and make a real habit of it that I stuck to my guns and that's what helped me to write the first draft of the book.
Jack Wrighton - 11:13
Yeah, I'm amazed at that discipline. After a long day of driving or sort of traveling around to decide, "No, I must open that laptop." Did you find, because it feels like the repetition of that, the doing that every day, almost becomes like a… not a ceremony, I don't know what word I'm trying to reach for, but like a ritual that you have to get into. Do you find that there's almost a certain point where it doesn't necessarily get easier, but you see a shift in how your mind's working because it realises, 'Oh, I'm doing this every day' and so therefore, something has to be ticking along in that region all the time.
Eleanor Shearer - 11:57
Yeah, I think that's right. What I like about it, and I think it's a combination of doing it every day and actually setting myself a relatively manageable word count, is that I almost always finish a day's writing in the middle of a scene or a chapter and so I kind of know what's going to happen next, even if I haven't exactly got the words for it and so it's then in the back of your mind for the next 24 hours before you pick it up again and I find that it helps me avoid that dreaded writer's block because I'm never quite fully running out of steam and I feel like if I worked more in fits and starts, you know, a longer word count, but then maybe took the weekends off or something, I would worry that yeah, my mind would slip out of that habit of thinking about the book in over the course of a day, almost all the time, just in the background.
12:47
So I am a firm believer that everyone's process is different and what works for me won't work for everyone. But for me, what really helps is, as you say, that kind of the ritual, the habits, the ability to have it constantly there and in the background and it's funny, because my day job is in public policy, so I'm often writing for my work, I'm writing reports, I'm writing articles, but what I enjoy most about drafting fiction is that it feels like a completely different muscle that I'm exercising. I can really do a full day of writing in one form and still come home and derive such pleasure from writing in this very different way. So that's quite nice as well. It does actually… although it's not always enjoyable, there are days where it is a slog. There are days where it’s a joy as well.
Jack Wrighton - 13:34
I suppose having that, you know, that manageable 500 words per day is kind of a good way of it not becoming, you know, there are the difficult days, but it's not becoming such a kind of, you know, oh, I have to do, I've still got a thousand, you know, 500 words to do before my daily, you know, word count is reached. I think quite quickly, not everyone, but many people, I know I certainly would, would give up very quickly. I would go, you know, I can't deal with this. I'm very much always at the pram and I can't do this and so we'll go back to 'River Sing Me Home' in just a moment. Another book I'd like you to recommend is a book that you've read recently, either the last book that you've read or something that you've picked up recently that you really enjoyed.
Eleanor Shearer - 14:18
Yeah, I'm going to go with the last book that I read that I actually finished. I won't say what hour of the early morning last night, but I just had to read those final few chapters and it is Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen, which I'm sure needs no huge introduction from me. But I think sometimes the classics are classics for a reason and this was a reread for me. I've read this book a number of times, but including at GCSE when I was studying it at school and I remember approaching it with a bit of apprehension because sometimes these old books are worthwhile, but a slog to get through and, you know, you feel like it's almost like running a marathon. you finish the last page, you close the book and you think, "I'm glad I did that, but god it was hard." and Prime Prejudice is not like that at all. I find it so gripping, pacey.
15:06
As I say, I stayed up much longer than I intended to last night because I just really wanted to get to the end of it and I just think Jane Austen is such a master of social relations and observations that are of her period, but also in a way timeless. You feel like all these characters you could meet anywhere and actually, it's funny, part of what inspired me to pick it up again was that I watched Fire Island, the Pride and Prejudice retelling. It's a film, an American film that came out, I think last year, and it's about a group of gay men who are going to Fire Island, which is a very popular gay tourist spot in America and it's a retelling of Pride and Prejudice and I love when those are done well, those Jane Austen kind of modern twists, like Clueless is another classic for me that makes you realise how fresh the story is and how it can constantly be adapted because these character archetypes are so recognisable. So yeah, I could honestly go on for hours about how brilliant Pride and Prejudice is but that was the last book that I read and I would recommend it to anyone that hasn't had the joy of reading it yet.
Jack Wrighton - 16:09
You would thrust it into many people's hands.
Eleanor Shearer - 16:12
Yes.
Jack Wrighton - 16:13
That's so amazing. You said The Fire Island, I thought, I've heard of that film and isn't that like, you know, I thought that's definitely a very famous gay resort or like a place in America. I've had friends that have gone there and I had not realized, I think I'd seen an advert for that film, I had not realized that it was a private history telling. Well, you've sold, I mean, we're on the podcast to talk about books, but…
Eleanor Shearer - 16:39
Sold the film as well!
Jack Wrighton - 16:40
All media is valid and interesting and yeah, I think you've sold me on Fire Island now as well because as you say yeah it's a real testament to Austin and the way she wrote. I remember once I, I'm sorry to any Dickens fans out there, but I tried to pick up Bleak House and I personally just couldn't get through it. I found that just the language, I was just like I'm sure it's good but it's not for me. So I decided, I don't know why, I was going through one of those phases where I thought oh I'll pick up a classic and I picked up Austen and it was Pride and Prejudice and it just reads so well, like it's just so clear and I think elegant is a good word for it. I think it does what it does. Well it seems very natural, I'm sure it didn't take Austen, you know, I'm sure Austen, like any writer was kind of redrafting going through, but it reads as if just, oh well these… of course these words would follow each other, they're just the kind of natural progression if that makes any sense. So I'm the fellow Austen-stan, I would say these days. I think, yeah, I don't know, I think, yeah, her story is just fantastic. So yes, Jane Austen is your most recent book that you would recommend.
Eleanor Shearer - 17:51
Yes, absolutely.
Jack Wrighton - 17:53
A good choice and did you, one thing I'm interested in, particularly with River Sing Me Home, it's set at a very sort of particular time, which is this plantation and some slaves are sort of being told, "Oh, you're free, but you're not free." And I think that element of what do they call it?
Eleanor Shearer - 18:12
The apprenticeships.
Jack Wrighton - 18:13
Yeah, apprenticeships, which I think for many readers, I think this period, they might have read books about, you know, sort of set during the slave trade, or maybe about the sort of repercussions, but this particular period, I mean, I could be wrong, but feels sort of not within fiction, not particularly sort of well represented. Would you agree with that? Or am I role in them.
Eleanor Shearer - 18:34
Yeah I would agree and it was a very deliberate choice not least because one of the big themes of the book is what it means to be free and so setting at this ambiguous time when you were free by law in the sense that you were no longer considered a slave but actually by law you also had to work for your former master without pay for another six years which to anyone seems like just another definition of slavery, so I always knew I wanted the book to be in this kind of grey own and explore more the ambiguities of British abolition because I think not just in fiction, but in our popular consciousness more generally, there's lots that I think we don't know or don't know enough about in terms of Caribbean slavery and its repercussions. In particular, the book came out of this exhibition that I went to when I was a teenager actually called Making Freedom, which was put on by the Windrush Foundation.

The whole point of the exhibition was that it was trying to challenge this idea that freedom was something that was given to enslaved people in the Caribbean by benevolent white people like William Wilberforce. That's not to say there were very many campaigners in Britain that worked hard at abolition, but one of the key catalysts was resistance by enslaved people. That goes from things like the Haitian Revolution at the very upper end of resistance through to little everyday acts. The whole point of that exhibition, that centring of the agency of enslaved people in the Caribbean was something that I wanted to carry through into the book because I think that you're right. In our fiction and in our culture more generally, we don't often see that way that people in the Caribbean made freedom for themselves rather than it being something that they were just given.
Jack Wrighton - 20:15
Yes, and you know reading the book it feels what it does so wonderfully well is kind of explore I think you know you were talking about the kind of national consciousness I think when slavery sort of talked about it's talked about oh that bad thing that happened then, but then was ended by this kind of magical piece of legislation or whatever and I thought to read something that kind of actually dealt with that very sort of knotty period in terms of what was going on and kind of addresses that felt very refreshing and I love the, I think it's in your note at the front of the proof that I received that you say this is a book not about slavery, but about freedom. I think it's really interesting as well about, you know, focusing on that element, you know, is very important and you say that exhibition was, you know, kind of a sort of a sparking, you know, moment that you went to see, approaching reading the book or just in terms of your life sort of before you started writing, you know, were there any other sort of key kind of texts or bits of research that you sort of came across that influenced River Sing Me Home?
Eleanor Shearer - 21:22
Yes, so one big thing was that I ironically completely unrelated to the book or the idea that I had that I would one day write about these women in the Caribbean that we know really did go find their children, who I learned about at this exhibition when I was 16. So I had that idea for a novel since I was 16 and then unrelatedly ended up doing this Masters in Political Theory, where I studied the legacy of slavery in the Caribbean and the case for reparations. I'm the granddaughter of Windrush generation immigrants, which is why I've got this interest in Caribbean history. I wasn't thinking of this novel when I set out to do that research and it involved field work where I went to St Lucia and Barbados where I've got family and I was interviewing family members, I was interviewing historians and reparations activists and it was only afterwards that I realised just how much of a treasure trove of that research was in terms of being able to support this novel because one of the things that came out of it was just how differently people spoke about and remembered slavery on the islands compared to the way that it is taught in Britain and really reinforcing that fact that people wanted to remember and reflect on resistance. One of my mum's cousins was telling us very proudly that he lived on lands that used to be used by runaway slaves in St Lucia.
22:40
So really foregrounding the fact that people used to run away and fight these brave battles on this ridge in his back garden. But also people were keen to stress the ambiguities of emancipation and so whether it was reflecting on the fact that it was slave owners who got compensated and not enslaved people themselves, or whether it was talking about the fact that not just in the apprenticeship period, but afterwards in islands like Barbados where they were so densely settled there wasn't really any lands that wasn't being used by plantations. People didn't really have a choice but to work on the plantations after they were freed so you might be given a pittance wage but again what kind of freedom is that in terms of a positive freedom to do what you want with your life if your only choices are to just keep working in plantations. So people told me all these different stories, whether it was personal stories of family or this sense of their own historical consciousness and that all added to this sense that I was developing about what slavery in the islands would have been like and helped me write this book about it afterwards.
23:43
So yeah, I'd say that master's research that I did and the other thing that came out of it that I wanted to bring into the book is that one of the big reasons I went out and did this fieldwork, which is quite unusual for the discipline that I was studying, political theory, which is a bit like philosophy really, is that I really wanted to centre the testimony of the people that had been affected and I wanted to give them space to tell their own stories and I wanted to carry that quality through into the novel itself. You know, River Sing Me Home has quite a lot of side characters that might be in Rachel's life for only a chapter or two, but they all get a chance to give you a glimpse of their life stories and almost this oral history quality to it I guess of people getting to tell something on the page that hasn't been recorded in any other history books because you know these were people that often couldn't read and write and didn't get to leave those physical traces behind that form part of the way that most of us learn history. So yeah I'd say that that field work really inspired me and ended up being really useful when I came to write the novel.
Jack Wrighton - 24:46
Yeah it's funny because that links into another sort of question or thing I was going to put out there about the, you talk about the sort of the characters and kind of filling in, almost like filling in gaps that kind of written history has left out because of course you know particularly within the UK the kind of the history of that abolition would have been written by you know the white abolitionists and therefore it's that particular kind of frame and how they wanted to kind of be perceived that we we see and yeah something that struck me reading the book was the sense of bringing to life stories that, as you say, exist within families, like in testimony, but putting that into the page. Do you feel fiction is quite a good way of telling forgotten stories or stories that have not traditionally been told?
Eleanor Shearer - 25:37
Yes, absolutely. One of the wonderfully freeing things about fiction as opposed to history. Before my masters I did study history so I consider myself to be a historian as well as a novelist but the novelist is so much more freer form to imagine into those gaps that are left in the record and also really kind of engage people's curiosity and empathy in a different way I think. When I was writing this book, one of my kind of writing heroes is Andrea Levy who wrote Small Island and The Long Song. Small Island in particular I think is such a wonderful book and such an important cultural artefact for bringing the Windrush experience to wider British attention. What I love about the book is as someone with Caribbean heritage I can connect to it so immediately, but actually it's written with such warmth and empathy to the British characters as well and I know so many white British friends who love the book as well and so with that in my mind, fiction does have this power to really draw attention to communities and stories that have been forgotten. I absolutely wanted to honor that in River Sing Me Home as well and hope that people who read the novel come away with a greater knowledge, but also a greater kind of understanding and empathy for the things that people would have experienced.
Jack Wrighton - 27:01
I mean I will absolutely confess my ignorance to the apprenticeship element and the first thing I did was really to get googling, going out there and you know and learning more and you know I think you know fiction can do that. I think people obviously do love nonfiction and will pick up a nonfiction book but I don't know there's something about the emotional experience of reading that I I think can just connect to you more but give you that curiosity to go, "Oh goodness, I didn't know," and then to kind of reach out into the real world as it were and gather that information.
Eleanor Shearer - 27:38
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Jack Wrighton - 27:40
And so we're back in the bookshop now and you're being asked to recommend another book. It's any book now. It could be a children's book, it could be anything, but it's a book that for you has some sort of importance. It's either the best book that you've ever read or a book that you would recommend to anyone and that you think is just the pinnacle of good storytelling.
Eleanor Shearer - 28:06
Yes, I do have a book that I am quite evangelical about recommending to friends, to family. So I came prepared and that is Barkskins by Annie Proulx, who's an American author, probably best known for her novels, The Shipping Muse and her collection of short stories, one of which is Brokeback Mountain that got turned into the very famous film. When I read Barkskins I'd already read a couple of her other books, so I knew that I really loved her and loved her work. But Barkskins for me just took it onto another plane and it's almost impossible for me to articulate how much I love this book and love when someone in my life finally takes up my recommendation after constant badgering and then we can discuss it. So the book is set in America and Canada and it's a multi-generational sweeping epic that I guess in a sentence is about about the destruction of the American forests.
28:56
So it starts in the 16th century with a couple of indentured laborers from France who are brought over to help clear the pine forests in Canada and then one of them ends up running away from his effectively servitude and makes a fortune for himself and then his descendants that we follow become lumber merchants. So they are kind of complicit in the destruction of the forests. The other marries a native American woman then his children are Native Americans being displaced from their land and the victims of the destruction. So the book is, I mean, Annie Proulx is a phenomenal writer about the natural world and about climate and climate change. So it goes all the way up to the modern day and considers the full kind of implications of what's been done in terms of the destruction of nature. But she's also an incredible writer of character. One of the challenges with the book, obviously as with any multi-generational story is that you're only with each generation for quite a small period of time on the page, but she can in a couple of sentences just conjure such a vivid image of a character and a vivid sense of them as a person.
30:08
You're immediately appalled or entranced depending on what she wants you to feel about them and so I find some of the characters of this book that you might only meet for a chapter so memorable and yeah I just think this book changed the way that I think about what writing can do and it also changed the way that I think about historical fiction and actually is in many ways an inspiration for the the next book that I'm working on because one of the things I love about the novel is that it is predominantly set in America but it takes in lots of other landscapes so one of the 16th century characters goes to China on a trading mission or one of the Native American characters gets to visit New Zealand and I think that we learn history in these really siloed ways where you often are thinking, okay, I'm learning my British history, maybe now I'm taking a module in American history, now I'm doing my Latin American history and you don't think about the way that places were still connected, even in quite distant times from the modern day and I love a book that does connect those threads and you suddenly think yes of course why wouldn't an 18th-19th century Native American man travel on a ship to New Zealand and meet people over there and the novel I'm working on at the moment is set in Nova Scotia but it's about a community of Jamaican runaway slaves that ended up exiled there and again it was just when I found out that that was something that actually happened I thought I'd never in a million years have connected Jamaica to Nova Scotia in Canada so immediately I was kind of pulled in by that opportunity to do what Annie Proulx does so well and her work and draw together all the threads of different places and different times.

Jack Wrighton - 31:44
And yeah, tie them together. I suppose in terms of places we can sometimes have almost a filmic view of them. Like we imagine, you know, you talk about the next book you'll be writing, we are talking about River Sing Me Home, but it's always fun to talk about the next project as well, is, you know, these Jamaican runaways you said, that ended up in Nova Scotia. I think, you know, if you say certain words to people, they will build a very sort of basic picture in their head, kind of like a Hollywood movie of what that might look like. So anything that kind of like breaks through that and goes, well, actually, you know, that's just, you know, the tip of the iceberg. There was a lot more going on there, I think, is both mind expanding, but as a reading experience is so exciting when you read that and it sounds like Barkskins was a really like, exciting reading experience for you.
Eleanor Shearer - 32:33
Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Jack Wrighton - 32:34
Yeah, and that's what, you know, and when you're a bookseller, those are the books that you end up... I can imagine if you worked at Mostly Books, it would be one of the books that you have, like we have a little review card underneath. That would be yours, and you would be just every person. Have you read this? Have you read this? It does work. It does... The assistance with the book, and if you're passionate about it, absolutely works and so it does sound then, with some of the books that you've mentioned, but particularly with Barkskins, you know when you're writing do you have a kind of obviously you don't necessarily have like a single book in mind because it's your book and you're you're writing your book and you don't want it to be sort of too influenced, but were there kind of writers that you were you know that you took inspiration from or you you know that you were sort of reaching towards when you created your work?
Eleanor Shearer - 33:20
Yes definitely so I've already mentioned Andrea Levy and Annie Crew and I think Hilary Mantel is probably the last one that's really up there for me. Oh and Toni Morrison as well I shouldn't forget because I think anyone who writes about black history is in many ways standing on Toni Morrison's shoulders. She was doing it like no one else did and yes those are kind of the top tier for me of authors who I've read a lot of their work. I am such a fan of what they do with their novels. I don't think all fiction needs to be socially conscious but I want to write socially conscious fiction so I think all of those are writers who in different ways are writing novels as a way to sort of change attitudes, change minds, and in a really small way, change the world. I think there's a wonderful James Baldwin quote about how writing changes the world because if you can change someone's mind even a tiny bit then you've changed the world with your work.

34:15
So yeah, I very much look up to those writers and do find sort of returning to their books again and again and realising that peeling back the layers of them and being able to, you know, Beloved by Toni Morrison for example is a book I've probably read three or four times now and every time I get something different out of it. It really helps when you're putting together all the complex pieces of your own work to just appreciate how difficult it is to do it well. I think I find it comforting in a strange way because yes, in the middle of a draft when you think it's the worst thing that's ever been written and it's really hard going. Reminding that it's possible to come out the other side, it's possible to come out the other side with something good, but also that it can't - these are people who, you know, honed their craft over decades and you have to put the work in to earn the reward. I found that a comfort when I was working on my own novel.
Jack Wrighton - 35:05
Yes, I imagine. I don't know, I could just imagine because in some ways it must be quite solitary when you sit down to write it. I could imagine there's some, maybe sort of dark's the wrong word, but moments of being, just not being able to see the end, you're in the thick of it and just wondering kind of where the end is. So seeing those kind of finished works that was kind of like the light at the end of the tunnel. Like one day your book will be just as finished and bound and ready to go, which it is right now. It's out there and if we're still staying in the bookshop but now the book that you're pulling off the shelf is your own and if you were in a sort of role as author/ bookseller handing that over to a customer, what would you tell them about this book?
Eleanor Shearer - 35:55
Yes, I know I mentioned before but this novel is inspired by the women in the Caribbean we know really did try to put their families back together again after the end of slavery and I wanted to honour that bravery and make it more widely known because one of the things that slavery was trying to do was destroy people's right to a family life, you know, from being renamed when you were brought over from Africa to destroy that link with your ancestors through to the constant threat and reality of having your children taken away from you and sold to different plantations or different islands. The fact that there were women who went through all that and said, "No, I refuse to let my family stay broken and I'm going to put the pieces back together again," was just so wonderful that I knew I had to write about it. So the novel comes from that. It also comes from closer to home on a personal level, wanting to reflect with my protagonist Rachel, the wonderful black women in my own life like my mother and my grandmother and my step-grandmother and my aunt and really take the time to unpack the quite complex psychology of someone who has suffered so much.
37:05
Rachel has been on her own journey through enslavement but in the modern day my family have been there themselves, the victims of racism in many ways, but also coming out of that with so much love and hope and resilience because I think that's what I want to impress on anyone that I was trying to sell this novel to is that, as you said earlier, it's not a novel about slavery, it's about what comes after and although I don't want to shy away from how brutal slavery was and the long shadow that it casts over the book, but it's ultimately an uplifting story and it's a story about hope and it's a story about a mother's love and the length that she'll go to find her children. So I hope that when people hear about the kind of, the one line pitch that they are able to know that there is that optimism at the heart of the book, which I hope makes it not just in a kind of unrelentingly bleak read but a hopeful one as well.
Jack Wrighton - 37:56
I can assure you it's not. It is, for me the overriding thing is very much, you know, hope and yes just your order, you know, and you're saying it came from that exhibition about these these people who piece their family together and it is, you know, you're awed by kind of Rachel's, you know, when still living in that kind of under the shadow of, you know, enslavement and the fear that comes with that, the drive that that would have taken to bring your family, you know, together that's been so sort of brutally separated. It's almost hard to fathom, you know, it's so amazing and that really comes across in the book and of course, some of the characters that Rachel meets have found freedoms in their own way. It is Mama Bee, isn't it?
Eleanor Shearer - 38:43
Yes.
Jack Wrighton - 38:44
Yes. It's one of these kind of first person that she meets once she's sort of gone on this journey. And she's a kind of a brilliant example of this kind of finding your own freedom and that, as you say, that resistance that you wanted to look at of enslaved peoples who themselves had brought about freedom as opposed to William Wilberforce being the sole creator of that. That really does come across in the book. I'm sure you've heard from Goodreads, although they always say for authors, I hear many of them say Goodreads. But I'm sure, are you starting to connect with readers now? Are you hearing back from readers through social media and things like that?
Eleanor Shearer - 39:32
Yeah, that has been one of the wonderful things about the novel getting out there is getting to hear from people how it affected them and it's funny you mentioned Mama Bee because I think one of the things I've enjoyed is that a lot of people have said how much they love Rachel, which is, you know, wonderful to hear and I love her very, very much as well. But different people pick up on different kind of minor characters as their favourite and so I've actually really enjoyed people telling me which of the side characters in the novel is their favourite and why and getting a slightly different answer every time. That's been really fun and very gratifying that there's enough to each of them that people can find something in each of the side characters to love. So that's been wonderful.
Jack Wrighton - 40:16
A good cast of characters, I think, always makes a book enjoyable. And because of Rachel's journey, obviously you have that great reason to bring her into contact with such a kind of, you know, a spectrum of people. Have any of people's choices surprised you? Have you gone, "Oh really, that character?" Because I suppose you, in some way to a degree, kind of must love all the characters that you, not all of them that you create, there's some characters in here that would be very very hard to love but you know in terms of the ones that you know are kind of part of Rachel's journey in a kind of a positive way. Did any of the choices surprise you? Had you gone oh I'd almost forgotten about that person? Is that not how it works?
Eleanor Shearer - 41:02
Not quite. I did actually do an event recently that was very special to do because it was with Arthur Torrington who's the head of the Windrush Foundation which is this organisation that put on the exhibition all those years ago so it was lovely to get to chat to him after all that time. But he asked about a moment in the book where Rachel is helped out by a beggar in Bridgetown and that's such a small moment. I mean it really is like a few sentences but I was so glad that he picked it out because what it is again, I don't want to give too much away, but Rachel is afraid of being seen in Bridgetown and this beggar on the street gives her his blanket and says I think you need this more than I do, you can use it to cover yourself and she's shocked that someone who has so little would help her. But it was important to me to show in times of adversity when it would be so easy to be incredibly individualistic and sort of try just to survive yourself and not have this more expansive idea of survival that comes from helping others as well. That wasn't what people did. There was a sense of community. There was a sense of wanting to help each other out. So yeah, That was very pleasing because it's such a tiny moment in the book but actually that moment clearly stuck with him enough for him to ask me about it in this event. So that's probably been so far that the most minor of the minor characters that someone's pulled out for comment.
Jack Wrighton - 42:40
But it is such a good point because the moment you said it I thought well yes because that has such a you know a repercussion in the way that that beggar helps Rachel. It goes beyond that one moment, that one interaction, it kind of goes so that's a that's a very good one to to kind of point out and you use the word community and I'm so glad because I had in my very sort of small brain way, I just made a note of the kind of the words that the book brought to my mind and it was hope, strength and then bond and I remember thinking, "But what do you mean by that?" I was trying to think about the kind of family ties but also kind of the people you just be on the way, friendships, those other and yeah, thank you for saying because my brain was just saying bond over and over again. I was like, "No, there's a better word." Yeah, community really comes across in this book, that kind of, as you say, people coming together in times of adversity when it might actually in some way, benefit them more if they didn't. If in a very selfish way, they could say, "No, it's about me surviving." But there's a kind of collective sort of want for survival and thriving.
Eleanor Shearer - 43:35
Yeah, absolutely. It's a very oft repeated phrase, but the no man is an island. I really stand by that and there's a point in the novel where Rachel is helping a character who asks her, why are you helping me? I don't understand and she says something like, I took help when it was offered to me and you shouldn't take help if you're not prepared to give it when the time comes. So this idea of kind of everyone's paying it forward and small acts of kindness in the novel from one to another ripple outwards and then you end up with this wider community of people that are all able to help each other.
Jack Wrighton - 44:09
Exactly, and I think in many ways that's a good note to end on. River Sing Me Home, as I said earlier, is out now. It's available in the Mostly Books Shop and online, but it's also available at your local bookshop or wherever you decide to get your books from. It really is a wonderful book and I'm very happy to hear that you're on the second novel. Thank you so much for joining us on Mostly Books Meets. It's been a great pleasure. Thank you.
Eleanor Shearer - 44:32
Thank you so much for having me. It's been delightful.
Jack Wrighton - 44:36
Mostly Books Meets is presented and produced by the bookselling team at Mostly Books, an award-winning bookshop located in Abingdon, Oxfordshire. All of the titles mentioned in this episode are available through our shop or your preferred local independent. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our previous guests, which includes some of the most exciting voices in the world of books. Thanks for listening and happy reading.