Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The fun & fascinating stories of Supply Chain & Logistics.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:00:02] Hi, my name is Bryndis Whitson, and you're listening to the Zebras to Apples podcast, the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. In this episode, I sit down with my friend Jen Borno, project manager extraordinaire. Jen is excellent and loves problem solving and really explains to us what is project management and how can we really make sure that the project goes off correctly? Please enjoy this episode with my friend Jen Borno.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:00:38] So I'm here with Jen and we're going to talk about a whole bunch of things, project management, and see where everything else goes.
Jen Borno: [00:00:45] So awesome.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:00:46] So tell me a little bit about your career history.
Jen Borno: [00:00:49] Sure. So I always joke I'm a bit of a jack of all trades or Jill of all trades, rather than an expert in anything. So I've really bounced around throughout my career. I started in a forecasting group. I actually started my career at Trans-Canada, which is now TC energy, and I was there for about 13 or 14 years. And my first role, we really looked at the natural gas system and forecasting supply, demand, all those kinds of things. And then from there I moved into major projects and I was a project coordinator. And so I did things like contract management, risk management, budget review, tracking costs, all those kinds of things, managing the schedule, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:01:32] And then so many things.
Jen Borno: [00:01:33] So many things. And like being on a fairly large project with a small team, you pretty much just jumped at whatever. It was a great learning opportunity. Yeah, it was super, super fun and the team was incredible. So I was really lucky to have that kind of an experience early in my career. And then from there I moved into IT and I started managing projects there. So I managed some projects in finance, and I also managed some commercial systems projects, which maybe were a little less interesting. Don't tell anyone. And then from there, I moved into supply chain. So I actually became the manager for the IT and corporate services team. And it might seem like a kind of a weird jump, but within all the IT projects, I managed a lot of software development projects. And we had to deal with contracts all the time. And I found consistently we weren't negotiating really important things. So I did some pushback on what we should be negotiating. And they're like, hey, well, we need a manager in this space. Would you like to be that person? So I bumped into that space and I was there for three years, and then I went on maternity leave and the market completely changed. And I came back to a team with all new leaders, and I was given a package. So when I left, I took an opportunity to have another child. And then I entered the world of consulting. So I worked for another oil and gas company. I worked on their employee well-being program. So as a project manager, they're really trying to build awareness for how important like mental health, physical health is for our employees, and then moved into Covid so that my next contract was back in supply chain, working on building out processes for three different supply chain teams that we're all doing things differently at the same organization, trying to bring some consistency in. And then after that I went back into IT project management. So project management really is my sweet spot. I did some time in attendance, payroll, and disability management. So just lots of different skills and different experiences.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:03:39] I thought of the first question because there's so many questions from that. But let's go just to the basics of what is project management?
Jen Borno: [00:03:49] So project management is different from operations that it has a finite time period. So it has a defined start and a defined ending, and you go through multiple different phases throughout a project. You'll have like that prospecting proposal, just kind of like looking into what is it that we need to do going, going into planning, trying to figure out, okay, well, how long will it take? And um, also what do we need? Like, not just people, but what kinds of other resources do we need? So most of the projects I've done have been it. So it might be hardware, software, understanding of other products that we're going to be working with or or connecting to those kinds of things. And then you go into the execution phase. So however you've planned your project, obviously you're going to find things that weren't planned. So that's the risk. Part two you're constantly managing risks and issues throughout the project. And then you deliver it. So then you have a delivery and then from there you will monitor it for a while, and then it rolls into operations. And that would be the end of your project. So that just kind of gives you a super high level.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:04:52] And I think having those kinds of skills that are really planning focused and really seeing the little pieces, plus the bigger picture are probably really important skills to have.
Jen Borno: [00:05:03] Yeah for sure. And it's interesting. Different project managers have different parts of the project that they love to do. And for me, I'm the most interested in solving the problem. So a lot of the solving the problem often happens at the beginning of the project. And then once you get into execution, the planning phase for me is so fun, super intense, trying to understand what skills your team has, who can do what, what you're missing. Like all that is so fun. It's like you have all the puzzle pieces and you're starting to put it together. And then you know when the picture is almost complete, your puzzle is almost complete. That's where I start to kind of lose a little interest, because you're just kind of putting in the last few pieces. But if you're not careful, that's where one thing goes wrong and everything unravels. So it's like you can get kind of complacent. I know I can sometimes. Whereas other people don't really enjoy the planning piece, they don't love trying to solve all the different problems, but they do really enjoy it. Are you done yet? Has this risk occurred? Can we get rid of this risk? Can we give up some of our contingency, all these different components? It's really interesting how there's the detail oriented piece through execution that's really intense versus the planning, which is the more the problem solving I find. And it's in both pieces, but I find it's the 80 over 20 rule. Right?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:06:27] Okay. That's really neat. Is there certain computer software or different things that you use for that? Or is it more just kind of everyone has a different style.
Jen Borno: [00:06:37] There's some consistent tools that a lot of people will use. I tend to just use the ones I know. So I use a lot of Excel for budgeting and a lot of things like Microsoft Project to use for the project plan itself, just because I'm familiar with them. However, there's tons and tons of tools and some companies don't use those particular tools, so you just have to adapt. And then each company tracks their costs differently. So I might do a lot of calculations in Excel, but I do need to learn, let's say SAP or, you know, another software system depending on the organization. So I've used a number of those. The joys of being a consultant. You have to bounce around and just adapt quickly.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:07:18] And learn new things. Well, I always am reminded of one time I had a manager and she was like, well, you got to have a Gantt chart. And I'm like, what's a Gantt chart? And then I'm having to quickly look that up because I didn't take engineering.
Jen Borno: [00:07:34] Well and it's interesting too, like I, I historically have not managed my Microsoft project to a really deep level. I tend to track all of our tasks in Excel and so you can say, who's doing what, is it done? You know, where are we at? Versus readjusting. Because once you get into Microsoft Project, once you build the original plan, every time you adjust it, everything else moves. And then it can be a bit of a struggle to say, okay, well, I wanted that to move, but I didn't want that to move. And so it can be quite difficult, I find. So I often will be tracking what are the to do's, what are people focused on separately. And then I also don't find that the project plan, like a multi-page project plan, is very informative to senior leaders. So I'll often build like a one slider that says, okay, this is, you know, the development phase, this is testing. This is, you know, redevelopment.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:08:37] Completely.
Jen Borno: [00:08:38] More testing and launch. So it kind of is at a higher, much, much higher level. But then it gives the idea to the senior leaders of where you are in your project.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:08:49] Yeah. So it kind of gives that bigger understanding because you have to know the little details. But, you know, senior management just needs to know, like, are we on track or what's going on. So after working in those different kinds of programs, you moved into supply chain logistics. And I was wondering if we could talk about your project management experiences in supply chain.
Jen Borno: [00:09:16] So when I moved into supply chain, it's hilarious to me now, but I left IT and I thought I was going to go and fix supply chain. And I very, very quickly figured out that, we in IT were 50% of the problem, and.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:09:35] Oh, that's always interesting.
Jen Borno: [00:09:38] I was so lucky because I had really great relationships with the people in IT. So both the program managers, because I reported into two of them at different periods, and then as well as all of the client, what were they called, application maintenance and support managers. So they were really the operations managers. And it, I had really, really great relationships with them. And so I very quickly went into supply chain and was like, well, we're going to figure out how we can be better for IT.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:10:09] Yeah.
Jen Borno: [00:10:10] And then I was like, oh, I didn't realize all of these things that happen in the background and why it's important.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:10:19] Fully, completely. It's amazing how each one of these pieces has so many different aspects, and one piece affects something way on another line, like days later. And you don't realize that the two.
Jen Borno: [00:10:35] Yeah. So what happened all the time is we would get, we'd have a new project. They'd be like, we need to sign this. And so our team, it felt very much like we were paper pushers and we were the delay. And so we'd have project managers pushing us as hard as they could to get us to get this work done really, really quickly. And so I felt like the quality just wasn't there. So one of the things that we did was actually build a checklist of what are the most important things when developing a contract, a new supply chain, IT contract. And so we identified things that were important from a project perspective, as well as from an operations perspective, from a client perspective. And then we identified what are the kinds of things that sales guys care about. So I'll give you an example where we had one particular contract and the supply chain, no, it wasn't supply chain. It was that I think the operations person really cared about one type of payment on the contract. And so every contract is divided into different things. There's potentially labor and these are older contracts. So now software as a service a lot of these things are different. But this is an older agreement. So you had labor, you had licensing costs and maintenance and support, which is kind of long term tailing contract pieces.
Jen Borno: [00:12:05] And the project wanted obviously the front end costs to be as low as possible. And so that meant that they were then going to try and figure out how to recoup costs somewhere else. And one of the things I found out really quickly from the sales guy, whether he let it slip or not, was he gets paid based on how much money we pay up front. And so I was able to say, okay, well, we here at TransCanada don't go through our products or change them over very often. So once you're in here, you're probably in here for ten years, right? So this is the mental gymnastics I'm doing. So being able to then negotiate with him to say, okay, well maybe we won't negotiate down the front end costs. Sorry, project manager, but if we can negotiate a really minimal limitation of increase on those maintenance and support costs long term, then actually we could potentially be saving tons and tons of money long term. And so that was a great win for operations, maybe less so for the project, but overall for the life expectancy of the contract, it was very significant. Right. So we were able to kind of freeze costs and maintain that, and then the sales guy was super happy, so he went to bat for us. So it was like a win, win win all the way around.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:13:23] Well, and that would add those extra kind of pieces to that, you know, knowing where everything fits and what people's needs are.
Jen Borno: [00:13:32] Yeah for sure. The other thing, like in supply chain, my favorite part was always the negotiating part. And I'm sure most people also would say that, again though, it's solving the problem, right? It's not crossing the t's and dotting the i's. That's where I'm not as strong, but trying to bring together multiple client groups, like I had examples where I worked with, let's say the communications, internal communications, external communications, the facilities team, maybe IT and they all had very different needs and wants and really trying to suss out what was a need, what was a want, and how could we come together, because ultimately it makes more sense for us to share a contract against multiple teams than to have each team have their own individual contract for similar services. Right? So where you can do that, you're actually saving costs for the organizations from a supply chain and from a legal perspective, because you're reviewing less contracts, you often get more spend. And that way you're spending like you get a discount on spend, like all these kinds of things that are really, really cool. Yeah. And I really enjoyed that. So I almost treated each contract as like a mini project, if that makes sense.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:14:47] Yeah, that would actually make sense because that way it helps those kinds of pieces too. How did you find also going from being a project manager to actually leading a team, how was that kind of switch for you?
Jen Borno: [00:15:03] So good question. Ultimately, as a project manager, the difference between being a project manager and a leader or a manager, is, as a project manager, you usually don't have those people reporting to you. So as a project manager, it's often harder to get people to move in the same direction because at the end of the day, they always care what their boss wants more so than what the project manager will want. So if there's any kind of a discrepancy between the two, if we're not on the same page or their workload is so high, they have to choose one or the other, often they'll choose what their leader wants over what the project needs. And so as a project manager, I've had zillions of conversations with leaders saying, hey, you promised me this person and they aren't even coming to meetings. They don't have time for this project. So either you need to figure out how to get them on the team, or you need to get me a different person or I will hire somebody else. But ultimately, this isn't working. So I've had lots of those kinds of conversations as a PM, whereas on my team, I was responsible for making sure that my team could get the work done. So sometimes that meant shuffling portfolios.
Jen Borno: [00:16:17] Sometimes that meant saying, sorry, we're not going to get the work done in the time period that you thought we would get it done in. When emergencies come up, emergencies come up, right? So if we get a phone call that suddenly, let's say gas can't flow down the pipeline because there's some kind of a glitch in a contract and they're like, you need to sign this, or else guess what happens? Everything gets dropped and you jump on that one thing, right? Absolutely. So yeah, as a leader, it's different because you're responsible for managing everybody's workload. And then you have to keep track of actually a billion projects versus just one project. Right? So yeah, that was I think that might have been the more difficult piece because our team managed it was ridiculous. Something like 1200 contracts for 11 people. Some of them were fairly basic, like annual renewals. So it wasn't a ton of effort. But some of our things, especially in the corporate services side where you're managing consulting services, contracts for some of the big consulting companies, they're quite complex. And the costs on those contracts really matter because they bleed. They can bleed quite quickly. Right.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:17:26] So completely.
Jen Borno: [00:17:27] Yeah. So making sure you're managing that and on top of that requires a lot of effort. So yeah.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:17:33] Is there a fun project that you really liked working on that you can talk about?
Jen Borno: [00:17:39] Ooh, uh, let's see. There's so many.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:17:43] Well, we can talk about a few. Yeah.
Jen Borno: [00:17:45] Well, one of my favorite contracts was a people services contract supporting one of our really big projects in another country. And I got a lot of complaints about this contract not going well and was told, not asked, that we were doing an RFP to look for new people, even though the contract wasn't at the end. So they were like, we're going to redo this and we're going to look at it. I was like, okay. So we did an RFP. We did a ton of research, not in our country. So, you know, it was a lot of effort to do the research. And then we actually sent one of our contract analysts down to go, actually go to the offices of these places to kind of see what was happening there, to see really, like you say you have these systems in place, how is it really? Just because you say one thing doesn't mean that it is exactly like that.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:18:44] Yeah, that would actually fully change everything.
Jen Borno: [00:18:46] Totally. Anyway, so we sent them down and ultimately our contract analyst came back and was like, oh, God. Like, none of these other companies are sophisticated enough to do what we need them to do. And I think we need to figure out how to get along with this other company that we already have engaged with. And we'd been engaged with them for a couple of years. And so then we started the interview process internally of, 'what's going wrong?' And these particular individuals are fairly senior, not very accessible and kind of got an idea of what was going on, why it was problematic, how it was impacting the company and our projects, and then invited the senior leaders from the other team to come. And they brought in senior vice presidents. And it was me, right. We didn't really have an equivalent on our side. And I rolled into this negotiation. Everyone was super tense and we started talking and I said, you know, I want to have full disclosure here. So our company feels like we are being taken advantage of. And this is why they are asking for this. And so it doesn't make sense to us what you're asking for. It sounds like you guys are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. And they're really, really unhappy.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:20:12] Yeah.
Jen Borno: [00:20:12] There's also this other component here that isn't working, and so we need to figure out how we can work together. These two are the sticking points for us. And the vice president was quite upset. And she said, well, this is how it works in our country. And these types of services and these types of services are actually taxed very differently and have a completely different impact. And we don't want to lose money. So we know for sure if we do it this way we won't. And if we do it the way you want it to, which would work well in Canada, we will lose money. I was like, well, we don't want you to lose money, but how can we make it more transparent? So then that way we understand. And she's like, well, we could do these. Like we could identify these 20 different types of roles and they would follow this type of payment. And then all these other rules would follow this other type of payment and then you'd have full transparency. I was like, well, let's do that then. And then, we were able to kind of talk about, okay, well, how can we work together better and how can we support you? Because it felt very much like we were expecting them to just magically do things for us. And how can we better support them to get what we need? And then we walked out of there and everyone was smiling. Everyone was super excited. And six months later, feedback came back like, what did you do? They completely turned it around. We're really happy. And we're like, well, guys, sometimes we need to figure out what the real problem is before we start trying to solve it, and that's really kind of what happened there. I had a lot of really great learnings, and I know definitely my contract analyst had a lot of really great learnings, and it was a really big win. Like, that's fun, right? That's fun. That was a super fun project.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:22:00] Oh, I love that because you learn so much about different countries too. And but it's also things to think about for other future contracts of what are those differences?
Jen Borno: [00:22:12] Yeah. And tax law in Canada is so complicated. Like it's so complicated. I can't even imagine trying to understand that, let alone in multiple countries. So, international tax law. Like, what do I know? Nothing. I know nothing about it. So I had no idea that's even something that we needed to consider. I really just thought it was, we're talking about a markup here, and why is this markup ridiculous? Yeah. So anyways, it's just really good learning.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:22:43] Yeah, that's really neat. Any other ones that you can think of?
Jen Borno: [00:22:47] I don't know. I feel like most of the contracts that we managed, the most interesting ones were mostly in the IT space. And they were fun because I always had three clients on our side and then one like the group that we were negotiating with and sometimes it was actually harder to get the internal people to get on the same page than it was to actually negotiate an agreement.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:23:15] Well, and sometimes depending on the company, there's silos. There's well, you know, I have to get paid here, but you have to get paid that way.
Jen Borno: [00:23:24] Yeah. So you'd have like we'd be purchasing, let's say, software, and let's say it's supporting the HR team. So you have an HR representative there who wants that particular software. They want it delivered in this particular way. And then you've got your project manager who's trying to figure out how to reduce the costs, reduce the schedule. Which means, you know, we need to understand what the full scope is of what the client wants. And then you've got the operations team who's saying, I don't have a big budget, so what are we getting rid of, how much is this going to cost and how long before I start budgeting for it and who's taking which costs? And so often they wouldn't all be on the same page. And so trying to really get them together as a cohesive group so when we went to the negotiating table, we were actually united. Sometimes it was more difficult than the actual negotiation itself.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:24:16] Oh I bet.
Jen Borno: [00:24:17] Yeah, and just because there were so many teams, whereas when you have, let's say, a more standardized contract between the facilities team and a contractor, that's much easier because the facilities team is only one person. So we're supporting them, giving them feedback and support. But at the same time we're not. The most important part of negotiation is mediation. Yeah. I'm not always fighting for what I want. I'm trying to make sure that the two sides agree, and so I always find that interesting when you talk about supply chain and people talk about negotiation. And I've used that term over and over again. But at the same time, supply chain is often the mediator between who's buying and who's selling.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:25:03] Well, you know, I'm reminded too, of like a chat that I had with Siobhan in a previous episode and she was talking about implementing computer software, too. And just like the challenges involved in that piece, that I'm sure those are things you have to build into the project management of, like, how are we going to actually install it, making sure that people are trained up and all of those different aspects to are huge components that some people don't take the time to think about, too.
Jen Borno: [00:25:37] Okay. So I'm going to say as a project manager, usually implementing the tool and getting the functionality up and running usually isn't the hardest part. It's the interface between other things. And so let's say so I'll give you an example. So I was working on a disability management project and we were implementing a new supplier. And the new supplier had their own tool and we had to then send over information to them. But really we were able to enter it in our tool, it was actually not that difficult. People were super stressed about training, but really once you got in there, it was very intuitive. But then historically, our old supplier did all the payments for us and we just did a bulk payment to them. The new supplier didn't have that functionality. They weren't able to actually do the payments on our behalf, and so we had to do the payments. So what they would then do is send us a payment file that we then had to parse it up and fire it into the new system. And then we would then review and then pay people their disability payments based on the information that came in. And really, that's the hardest part of a project, really understanding how two systems talk to each other. And so there's so many different technologies out there, but ultimately all of them are flawed in some way. So you have to kind of choose your battles as to what is the best way to do it for one particular communication. So that's where most problems happen. They usually don't happen within the tool themselves and how you actually implement the tool. So people go in and they use it. And you choose all your selections as to what you want and how you want it to look. But it's not super complicated. It's the data behind that then is moving between systems. And it's funny too, because you get companies who say, well, we've got let's say SAP or we've got a different I'm going to use SAP, but you've got they've got all these different modules. And so they're like, well, if we've got one then it'll talk to the other one. So why don't we just get the next one? I'm like, well, it doesn't really work that way just because it's got the same name. Often companies like that, especially the big, big companies, were created by purchasing other companies and then jamming that technology together. And so ultimately, if I have module A and then I go and buy module B, I still have to integrate that.
Jen Borno: [00:28:17] And it might be a little bit easier because they own both pieces of software and they're incented to make it work. Versus if I do something between, let's say ADP and you choose another one, so I want to do payments through ADP, but I want to bring the information over from another piece of software. And I've done that now at two different companies. ADP is not at all incented to help you. So you really have to kind of figure out how their API works and they will not support you at all. And then the other company, their job isn't to know how ADP works. So you need to then figure out those linkages yourself. And so that's where most of the problem solving ends up happening because this software works. And if you can get the information in over here, this software works. But how do you get that information over and make sure that it's error free? Yes. Like where are the checks and balances? That's where the hardest part of IT software projects is, the integration piece.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:29:16] Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm also reminded of companies that I've heard of where they're implementing new software, but they've got so much information that has to get into that new software that they spend months and months taking over other spaces just to make sure that they get the right information. Switch from one system to the new system.
Jen Borno: [00:29:40] I know, and like those cut overs are brutal. Those really are not a lot of fun. So when you're looking at like a historical system and then trying to bring it into a new system, this is where often you'll have data exports that you then have to then report on, so you can get rid of the one piece of software, but you'll only bring in, let's say, a year's worth of information or six months or to the beginning of the the the year. Right. So you're not bringing in all the data set for 20 or 30 years, right? You're going to then like, split, have a time where you split that and some stuff goes into an archive almost, and then one goes forward. And I've worked on those projects and I don't enjoy those ones. They are very stressful. Yes, they're very stressful. Versus saying, okay, well we're just trying to move forward. So we're bringing in a new tool or technology to kind of change how we're doing a piece. But then how do I describe it? You've got certain systems that are like your core systems that hold all the data, and then the other ones retain data, but they're not the system of record, right. And so it's those systems that are much easier to replace, whereas your system of record systems are incredibly difficult. Right. So anyways.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:30:58] No, but it adds like all those extra moments. And I also appreciate you talking about SAP, because what I found when I was working with students and or people wanting to change their careers and depending on what level they were at, they were so focused on learning SAP. But, you know, it was like that moment of, well, some companies use SAP and yes, they've got that on their like application needing that information. But not everyone uses these different pieces.
Jen Borno: [00:31:35] Yeah. And it's interesting too. Right. So if you get really focused in one space, what happens is you're only able to move to certain places that use those technologies, right? Whereas for me I'm the exact opposite. So I've used so many different types of technologies. I've worked in so many different departments. I've really touched everything from an oil and gas perspective. I've worked in or supported almost pretty much every team there is out there. Yeah, my problem is that I can't say I have 15 years of experience in X. I'm getting close to that for project management. But ultimately, when people are saying, I want 15 years of experience in something, I don't have that experience even often it's like, well, do you have like five years in HR? I'm like, well, doing the math. I'm like, sort of, maybe. So it's just really interesting how you choose your path based on what your skill set is. And my skill set is best leveraged when I'm learning something. So if I'm doing a repetitive task, I don't tend to be my best self. I'm best when I am learning something and leveraging all of my favorite skills. So anyways.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:32:45] Exactly. Well, so I mentioned this kind of to you as an aside, but I just when you said this, it kind of feels like I want to bring it up now, of that kind of I like when we look at Myers-Briggs and, you know, we've kind of like, I'm an ENFP and I think you're an INTJ. My mother was also an INTJ, so I can tell them a mile away. And because I love watching different people and how their brain works in different ways. But the problem is that those kinds of pieces are fully in that kind of area. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jen Borno: [00:33:23] And I think actually I think I'm an INTJ. Is that right? Like an extroverted extrovert, I'm an INTJ. Yeah. Okay. I know that's shocking, but yeah, I love problem solving. And it's like when you talk about one of the things that I did after I got let go was really spend a lot of time on, ‘what are my personal values?’. When I worked at TC energy, we had four company values, which I felt like I aligned to quite a lot, but spending a lot of time personally looking at ‘what are my real values?’. My first value is creativity. And so yes, it might be trying to make things pretty or create things new, but it's also about problem solving. Like how can you creatively pull information from all of your different experiences to solve a problem? So I love that. My second one is authenticity. And so authenticity for me means how can I be my best self and how can I help others be their best selves? Because, you know, if we're all authentic and we're angry, that's not helpful. No. And yes, sure, that's authentic. But how can we authentically help people to be their best selves?
Bryndis Whitson: [00:34:32] Completely.
Jen Borno: [00:34:32] And then my third one is learning. So I love to learn, but I love to learn things that help me with the other two aspects. Right? Like, how can I learn to be a better problem solver? How can I learn to, how can I be more creative? And then also teaching? Like how can I teach others so fun and learn about how your brain works exactly. I am a junkie for like, how? What makes that other person across the table tick? I'm a junkie for it.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:35:01] Me too. And it's also because if you know about that other person's style, or start to learn about that other person's style, it helps the entire dynamic because you're fully acknowledging where their skills lie. Yeah. As opposed to just like, well, you need to fit into this box.
Jen Borno: [00:35:18] Oh my God. Somebody said to me recently, you're speaking my love language and I want to say it to you too. You're speaking my love language. When I was a leader, one of the things that I loved is that I got to choose people who brought something special to my team. And so, for example, I might actually choose somebody who had no supply chain experience, but they had negotiation experience and they very clearly had attention to detail. And so they weren't going to roll into my team and say, well, this is how we did it at company X. They would come in and say, okay, teach me what I need to know, and then start going. Why do you do it like that? Why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? It also allowed me to pair up my team with the right clients internally. So you'd have people that couldn't work together, but I always had somebody on my team that would be a good fit for that person. So it was really fun. So being able to play that shuffle game was always really, really awesome. And I remember when I first started doing that, I'd have certain project managers come in and be like, well, I only want so and so. I only want this person. I'm like, well, I think you're also going to get along really well with this other person and they have a bit more time, so they'll actually have time for you, why don't you give it a go? And so then slowly but surely, I had people coming in and asking for specific people. But ultimately, at the end of the day, everyone was getting requested, right? So that was really cool to see over time that I was able to pair the right people together because they had different skills that offset each other. Or if you have a really pushy person, you can't put somebody who's an introvert with them. But at the same time, you might have an introverted client who needs somebody who's maybe a little bit more introverted or, you know, you have a really great problem solver with somebody who's really detail oriented. That's the match you need, right? So it's just really fun. Whereas as a project manager, often you get the people who are available or you get maybe the best person, but that best person isn't a really great fit with the best person from a different team, right? You might be pulling a technology person and a business person and, you know, bringing in some consultants. And sometimes I don't have a choice of who those people are. I'm given the resources. And so you don't have that ability to kind of like massage it and put people in the right spots. So I don't know.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:37:42] Yeah. Oh, so much fun. So if you were giving advice to someone starting their career or pivoting and looking at project management, what advice would you give them?
Jen Borno: [00:37:54] Oh, I guess expect the unexpected. Yeah. Projects never go as planned. Ever. I've never had one go as planned ever in my life. You cannot control everything. So people who are control freaks often think they will be great project managers, and it's too stressful for them because ultimately, you can look at all of the risks and you have, you know, you rate every risk, you rate it as high probability to low probability. And you like to rate it from high impact to low impact. And then you've always got those unknown unknowns, right. Yes. Every project will have one, you know, hey, it's like for our wedding, our place went bankrupt and we lost our deposit for our wedding. Right? So it's like, yeah, if you run your project and then something completely shocking happens, right? Good news. We ended up getting our money back through visa, but ultimately, I was hysterical. And so things like that happen in a project all the time. And so you just need to be able to adapt. You have people put in their notice. You have blackouts that are unexpected because there was a major problem that some other area of the organization. You have all kinds of things that can happen that you kind of know in the back of your head that it could happen, but when it actually happens, it can have a huge impact. Right. So anyways, it's just it's always it's always fluid and you're always reassessing. And, um, you can only control so much. The universe gives you the rest.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:39.24] That's a really great piece of advice in a way. Not just for like, project management, but just in general life too. So yeah, so I really enjoyed this kind of chat. And I think it's a really good understanding because, you know, there's so many different pieces that project management fits in. And I've had the privilege of getting to see little windows into your project management skills and other things too, and it's been so much fun chatting about this too.
Jen Borno: [00:39.54] I had so much fun too. I was a little nervous, but you know, I think this was quite easy.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:39.59] Exactly. It is. Surprise.
Jen Borno: [00:40:02] Thanks so much.
Bryndis Whitson: [00:40:06] Thank you for listening to this Zebras to Apples podcast episode. I hope you enjoyed the showcase of the fun and fascinating stories of supply chain logistics. If you liked this episode, I would love it if you could give it a rating and review. For more information about this topic, you can go to ZebrastoApples.com, or follow Zebras to Apples on the social media platform of your choosing, whether that's Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Bluesky, or LinkedIn. You can support the show on Patreon. Also, check out the show notes below. Please join me again for another episode of Zebras to Apples. Have a wonderful day!