So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

**Note: Before you listen**

This episode contains discussions of disturbing events that have taken place in Minnesota. Please take care while listening.

“Shouldn't we as a society really be taking a step back and dissecting this hate, and realize that it is shameful and embarrassing?...Right now, you guys might be interviewing me about what's happening in Minneapolis. I hope nobody is ever interviewing you about what is happening in your neighborhoods.” - Cari Brunkow

What happens when the national headlines are in your neighborhood?

In this powerful and deeply human conversation, Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey sit down with Cari Brunkow, founder and counsel of Lotus Legal, a Minneapolis-based criminal defense and civil rights attorney who is living, and lawyering, in the middle of escalating ICE activity and community unrest.

Cari shares what it feels like to launch a human-centered law practice, and watch violence unfold in her own city just days later. She speaks candidly about fear, grief, anger, and hope, and about what it means to show up as a lawyer, a mother, and a community member when the fight feels personal.

This is not a neat conversation. There are no easy answers. But there is honesty, proximity, and a reminder that we are not alone and we can all do something.

You’ll hear about:
  • Why Cari named her firm Lotus Legal, and what the lotus symbolizes in criminal defense and civil rights work
  • What she’s seeing firsthand in Minneapolis, and how it differs from national narratives
  • The emotional toll of witnessing violence in your own community
  • What it means to “get proximate” even if you don’t live in Minnesota
  • Practical ways to support affected communities
  • Why speaking up makes all of us safer

About Cari Brunkow:

Cari Brunkow is the founder and counsel of Lotus Legal, a Minneapolis-based criminal defense and civil rights firm. With more than a decade of experience representing individuals in law enforcement brutality cases and protecting constitutional rights, Cari launched her solo practice in 2025 to align her legal work fully with her values. She is a mother, a community advocate, and a fierce believer in proximity, truth, and collective courage.


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Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People where we explore the behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We’re your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we’re here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real challenges of balancing ambitious careers with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. Instead, So Much To Say is a human-centered leadership, marketing, and culture podcast through the lens of law. We bring you real stories, candid conversations, and thoughtful insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer, what makes you human matters too. So whether you’re navigating billable hours, building meaningful relationships, redefining success, or simply trying to stay human in a high-performance profession, this podcast is for you.
Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human).

[00:00:00] Cari Brunkow: Shouldn't we as a society really be taking a step back and dissecting this hate and realizing that it is shameful and embarrassing right now. You guys might be interviewing me about what's happening in Minneapolis. I hope nobody is ever interviewing you about what is happening in your neighborhoods. This is still happening. People feel unsafe leaving the house. If that is what you voted for, then I just think that we need to have a. Serious national conversation.
[00:00:30] Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started.
[00:00:49] On today's episode of So Much To Say, our guest is Cari Brunkow, the founder and counsel of Lotus Legal. Lotus Legal is a human-centered defense and advocacy firm. Jen and I don't actually have that much exposure to civil defense attorneys, and like most of our guests, Cari and I got connected on LinkedIn very recently.
[00:01:11] Only about a week before we recorded this podcast. Cari lives in Minneapolis and gives us her firsthand accounts on what she is seeing with her own eyes, what she is hearing with her own ears as she is literally on the grounds in Minneapolis. Cari and I first got connected as we were talking about, hi, how inept we both felt to talk about politics, human rights.
[00:01:39] What do you tell your kids? And that was all more the reason where Jen and I decided that we needed to use whatever platform that we had to have these conversations. It was not a super easy episode to record. And even doing this introduction is hard to articulate the words that I wanna say. And what's the message here?
[00:02:03] I think the thing that we all keep coming back to, and it's a favorite word that I've been. Leaning on this week, which is this duality of feeling completely, utterly hopeless, despair, grief, with inspired, full of love, support, and a sense of community. And those two things have been living near each other, living side by side almost every second.
[00:02:34] You might be feeling grief and love. You might be feeling despair, but also feel inspiration, and we try to tackle some of those feelings in this conversation. There's no fix. There's no listen to this episode and you'll feel better. But what we are hoping is that you will feel less alone, and as you continue to listen to our podcast, whether you are a lawyer, a legal marketer, or just someone who has stumbled on this episode.
[00:03:06] Our hope is that you will feel connected and that you'll be inspired to do one small thing that feels impactful for you and your neighbors and your community.
[00:03:20] Jennifer Ramsey: I just kind of, I just start talking and I know we'll get into heavier topics, but Cari, I'd love to hear about how you came up with the name of your firm, Lotus Law.
[00:03:31] Because Lotus, it has particular importance to me. Being a, a yogi and a yoga instructor, and I absolutely love the name of your firm and I'd just be curious how that came about.
[00:03:41] Cari Brunkow: No, I love that. Similar, also Yogi, not a yoga instructor, but I just, I think that beautiful things can come from. Tough beginnings.
[00:03:52] If anything, maybe better things can come from tough beginnings, and that's what the lotus means to me. I also have a giant lotus covering my entire rib cage. It's always, I don't know, it's just I, I like the idea that I practice criminal defense and civil rights work, so I like the idea that when, you know, somebody calls me, it's never for a good reason, but maybe we can get to someplace better.
[00:04:16] Mm.
[00:04:17] Jennifer Ramsey: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:04:19] Megan Senese: The running joke. The reason why I was like making, uh, hysterical faces is because Jen and I keep talking about how I keep finding all these yogis. Even the, like, I keep finding, like I keep finding all of them and, and, or maybe they're finding me, I think, is that what I think you said that Jen, right?
[00:04:35] Maybe they're Well, the yogis are finding Yes.
[00:04:36] Cari Brunkow: The universe. The universe is conspiring. Yeah. For. Are badass women to get together.
[00:04:43] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. It, I, I believe that, I just said this, I think to our podcast producer, Melanie, so shout out to her. Finding badass women and women supporting women actually gives me hope that we're gonna be okay in this world.
[00:04:58] 'cause I've been feeling pretty hopeless and helpless. I was, I was actually writing Melanie a, a LinkedIn recommendation and I, I was really thinking about it. I'm like, from my heart, like, what is it that she does?
[00:05:08] Megan Senese: Hmm.
[00:05:09] Jennifer Ramsey: And. She's a podcast producer. Yes. She's excellent. She's elite.
[00:05:13] Megan Senese: Yes.
[00:05:14] Jennifer Ramsey: That's just what she does.
[00:05:15] Who she is is somebody who actually fucking roots for us.
[00:05:21] Megan Senese: Yeah,
[00:05:21] Jennifer Ramsey: and like Cari, you rooting for people and rooting for the quote unquote underdog or rooting for the people who need to be rooted for that is hopeful.
[00:05:31] Hmm.
[00:05:33] Cari Brunkow: I root for you too, and I know that you root for me. And that's just immediately apparent.
[00:05:38] And I think that that is the power of women.
[00:05:41] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes.
[00:05:42] Cari Brunkow: I also think the flip side of it, just to call it out, is also why it's so disappointing when we don't root for each other.
[00:05:50] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:05:51] Cari Brunkow: I, but I do, I think there is nothing more beautiful than when women come together. Recognize the situation and work together to just lift everybody up in in the room.
[00:06:04] There is nothing more beautiful than that.
[00:06:06] Jennifer Ramsey: I agree, and I think it's beautiful that you picked a lotus, because I did in preparation for this. I actually Googled like what really is the symbolism of a lotus right? And it's purity, it's rebirth, it's enlightenment, it's resilience. Growing untainted from muddy waters to bloom beautifully representing the soul's journey through suffering to spiritual awakening.
[00:06:26] This is especially true in Hinduism and Buddhism, where it signifies divine beauty in overcoming adversity to reach higher consciousness. And I think that, and maybe that just sets the stage for our conversation today. Yeah, like let's resilience. And reaching a state of higher consciousness, putting those vibrations out into the world of hope and help.
[00:06:51] And we are not alone. I'm sorry. I don't know. I, I don't know what's happening to me. I'm sorry.
[00:06:56] Cari Brunkow: No, I love it. We, we are not alone. Um, because we. Are forming these community groups. I, I went out on my own to start my own solo practice, uh, for criminal defense and civil rights as of January 1st. Obviously I had a little bit of runway, um, towards the end of last year, but I, my insurance kicked in and I opened my doors to January 1st, and on January 7th.
[00:07:21] Our federal government shot Renee Goode.
[00:07:23] Megan Senese: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:07:24] Cari Brunkow: And for the first time in my career, I have felt like I can say the words that I wanna say when I wanna say them. I don't have to run 'em by, you know, anybody else. I can just really speak from my gut and from my heart. And I have never felt more aligned in where I stand as a human being and where I stand in my work, where as I stand as a lawyer, as a community member, as a mom, as a parent, I am.
[00:07:51] Horrified by what is happening in Minneapolis and in other places. But I have never been more inspired than specifically moms have been the heroes of this moment. But I am so inspired by how our community has come together to say. No, we're not. You can't just take people from their homes. You can't just take kids from their schools.
[00:08:14] These are meant to be safe spaces, and if nobody's gonna keep us safe, we're gonna show up. We're gonna keep ourselves safe with cell phones and whistles and business cards.
[00:08:24] Megan Senese: So I, I wanted to just ask how, you know, how today is, 'cause I know you are literally in Minneapolis and you're, yeah. You're seeing the.
[00:08:33] Everything. And so, you know, I am on Long Island, Jen's in San Diego, we're seeing it secondhand. Instagram is awful in terms of the content that I'm seeing. It's just terrible. And then you're trying to balance, like, I need to be informed and I, I, I have this privilege of like putting it away and maybe I should be looking at it more and torturing myself.
[00:08:52] Right? So, so there's kind of that piece, but there's also like, how are you today?
[00:08:58] Cari Brunkow: Every day is a different day. Today, I'm like, I'm, I'm a combination of like pissed. But also like feeling kind of like, you know, let's fucking go. Um, so this woman commented, I, I, I don't know how to tell this story other than to like fully engage with the fact that there are trolls on the internet and maybe I'm turning into a little bit of a troll Oh, the other
[00:09:22] Megan Senese: way?
[00:09:22] Sure. Okay. Yeah.
[00:09:25] Cari Brunkow: And I don't feel good about it, but a amazing. Parents group based out of Woodbury, Minnesota, which just, if you're not familiar with Minnesota, is about 45 minutes away from the Twin Cities in Minneapolis, and they're seeing increased ice activity that far out. St. Cloud has about an hour.
[00:09:44] They're seeing it too, and this incredible parents group put out. This video on Instagram that I find super inspiring. I can send it to you if you guys have show notes. Um, that basically is a group of moms that said, no, this is not okay. We're not gonna live like this anymore. And there was a comment on it that was super insensitive that I engaged with for a moment and then realized it was probably a bot once I looked into it.
[00:10:09] 'cause I'm new to Instagram and haven't really used it. Since I accidentally went viral, a posting about how what is happening is monstrous anyway. And then at the end of my whole like tirade, me being a troll, I then said like, uh, but you're a bot, so that probably explains your complete lack of empathy.
[00:10:29] And the woman responded This morning, I saw it probably responded late last night, but I saw it this morning that said, actually no, I'm a human being. And then went on to just like list out all of these horrors and basically say that this isn't happening. I understand having to explain to people who aren't literally seeing what is going on on a daily basis to human beings by human beings, that this is a level of cruelty that is unimaginable.
[00:10:59] So I can understand why there's a human response to like, look, I gotta do my day. I can't just sit here and cog this and I'm not seeing it. So is it true? But for somebody who's a woman in Minnesota to say that this is not happening, in response to parents putting out their stories about what is happening really just pissed me off this morning, and I've just been walking around all day being really salty about it.
[00:11:28] Jennifer, you're talking about being a yogi. I don't want this to reduce me, right? It matters to me that this doesn't reduce me to being something I'm not proud of. I don't want to be teasing and cruel myself, but it's hard today. I'm having a really hard day,
[00:11:49] Megan Senese: and you're safe right now too, is the other thing.
[00:11:52] We keep being like, you're safe. At the moment,
[00:11:54] Cari Brunkow: yeah, I'm, I'm safe. I'm not. Okay. I don't think anybody who has seen the things that we've been forced to see is gonna be okay for a really long time. Um, and I say that as an adult and I am terrified for our children. I am terrified for the fact that kids are learning at an age.
[00:12:12] Where it is really important for them developmentally to know that there are safe spaces and that adults can keep them safe. That that might not be true. And I, I say that for people that are people of color and children of color that are learning hate in a really disgusting, horrific way. But this is not, this is everybody's problem.
[00:12:31] Um, and we already had a violence in school problem before this happened, and I, I am deeply concerned about just like what is getting put into. Our communities, what is needing to get digested? What is needing to get absorbed? The way I'm explaining it to my three-year-old who I'm sure there's gonna be lots of criticism, has like ridden along with me to drop off food at different places and he asks questions and I just tell him about the Grinch and the Grinch's Heart is too sizes, too small and.
[00:13:02] You know, but the who's come together and they say, 'cause he loves the Grinch. So having to explain that to my three-year-old makes me nauseous, but I refuse to not explain it to my three-year-old. Whether or not that's the right or wrong thing to do, I'm sure there's lots of mom shaming that well follow, but what do you do?
[00:13:23] What do you do with what we've been forced to experience?
[00:13:26] Jennifer Ramsey: This is a very un eloquent segue, but I I was gonna ask you, Cari, too. Talk to us about you opening your doors January one of this year, and then Renee Good was killed January 7th, followed by Alex Prety and others. Right. I don't wanna leave anyone out, but I just would like to know from your vantage point, your point of view being in Minneapolis.
[00:13:51] Can you talk to us and our listeners about what you have seen, what you've experienced since then, which is now, what is it like whatever, 40 days since the beginning of the new year, just what you've seen and also I, you know, would like to get into what, what people can do and what hope you have.
[00:14:10] Cari Brunkow: I do have hope.
[00:14:11] I do have hope, and I do have suggestions and I have truly suggestions and nice suggestions.
[00:14:18] Jennifer Ramsey: We'll take them all.
[00:14:19] Cari Brunkow: Um, so I wanna first acknowledge that I moved through this world as a white woman.
[00:14:24] Jennifer Ramsey: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:25] Cari Brunkow: Um, and that even though I have been fortunate enough to sit with families when I am working with them as their lawyer, that I continue to move through life as a white woman.
[00:14:36] So. I experienced shock in a different way, even though I have represented people in law enforcement brutality cases for the majority of my 11 year career. Just the fact that a, a person who's could have easily been me in their mom car, dropping their kid off at school, just got shot in the head. And then our federal government tried to say that it was all her fault.
[00:15:07] And then the reason why we've had so many people leave our US attorney's office is because then there was an incredible amount of pressure to investigate her widow, and now her son's school is receiving violent death threats. To children and teachers, you know, over, over the fact that she was shot. None of this is new in some sense, and some of this is completely new.
[00:15:40] It is not new that people have been living, especially people of color have been, been living in fear of the institutions that are funded by our tax dollars and are designed to protect us. State violence is not new. What is new is. Ice. Honestly, like what is new is that you have these masked people. I mean, we're all women on this call.
[00:16:06] If somebody in a mask, in an enterprise rental car tried to pull you over on the side of the highway and started breaking your wind, threatening you at tasers, who are you? You know, like. These guys are whipping through our neighborhoods at 50 miles an hour. These are, it's cold outside, but as things get warmer and we know that they have their hotel block until at least June, there are kids, these are kids that are playing outside.
[00:16:31] You know, there's a complete disregard and disrespect for our community as a whole. And then it's our fault that we are not just quote unquote letting them do their job when their, their job is from my vantage point. A complete terror campaign that is targeting my community and my neighbors and my children's safety and wellbeing.
[00:16:56] And then we had this incredible, beautiful march, um, in negative 30 degree with windchill, almost 55,000 people. I think they counted later, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, um, came out and marched and being a part of that and standing with people that. Needed to know that what they're feeling isn't isolated and that, you know, there is nothing that is gonna keep us from coming forward and seeing that this is not okay and that we stand together as neighbors.
[00:17:25] I will to the end of my days. Remember that feeling? I, I was sobbing. It was so beautiful to be a part of, and I particularly mentioned that because that night I kind of like, let, like I, you have armor on, right? I've been fighting in this like kind of anxiety fight. And I just, I think I went to bed at like seven after I put my toddler to bed and just sobbed, but in a good way, like watched Seinfeld and chilled and I woke up the next morning with so much hope after I had let, I felt safe enough to let that go.
[00:17:57] And that's the morning that they shot Alex Freddy. So I was sitting in my office feeling like it doesn't feel. Unintentional, and I don't, you know, I can't begin to speak to what and why this is happening. I think it's gonna take us all a long time and a lot of retrospect to really work through it. I think social media is great and horrible for this, right?
[00:18:23] Because one of the things that I think has been driving me nuts, like this is all just a coverup for the Epstein files. Like if that's true, right? They're out now. So how is that, you know, like the magical answer.
[00:18:34] Megan Senese: Distraction.
[00:18:35] Cari Brunkow: Yeah,
[00:18:35] Megan Senese: distraction.
[00:18:36] Cari Brunkow: Distraction. Just dis like, I like what is happening right now is super complicated and multifaceted and involves a lot of hate.
[00:18:49] And hate is complicated. Especially for people that don't understand that level of hate to try and make sense of 'cause it's, it's irrational and that. That's what I'm experiencing. I'm experiencing too, and I mean, we're, we're all of a such an age, right? Like I remember Bill Clinton getting impeached. I'm very curious to hear what he has to say for himself in the coming weeks, but I, you know, Al Franken's not our senator anymore.
[00:19:18] The like for much less, let alone the fact that the weekend after Renee Good was shot. There was a planned white supremacist rally that ultimately failed, but it was still, it was still planned. And shouldn't we as a society really be taking a step back? And dissecting this hate and realizing that it is shameful and embarrassing that white supremacists are supporting what is happening by law enforcement, in theory, law enforcement here in Minneapolis and in other places.
[00:19:53] Is this how we wanna live? Is it benefiting anybody though that we now just, we are immensely less safe than we were? I, I can understand it to the extent that like. Maybe this is benefiting, you know, 1% of the billionaire population, but we're not talking to them. That's not who's gonna listen to this podcast.
[00:20:14] It's not for them. Like this is not for them. Like, if anything, like we might have trouble getting our messages out because of them and the platforms that they own, but,
[00:20:22] Jennifer Ramsey: right.
[00:20:23] Cari Brunkow: I just don't understand how anybody, and this comes back to this woman pissing me off this morning, like, how do you see parents struggling as a parent yourself?
[00:20:35] Not feel something in your heart. Anything, anything. Or like dig in further and say like, well, you know, illegal immigration, I have no empathy for somebody. How do you have no empathy for somebody who came to this country seeking a better life?
[00:20:51] Megan Senese: It's hard to wrap your head around around someone who thinks like that.
[00:20:55] And I, I'm even hearing you being careful in how you're saying certain things and saying hate, but really it's racism. Right? Like it it's
[00:21:03] Cari Brunkow: racism.
[00:21:03] Megan Senese: Yeah. And, and I have been trying to, you know, again, as a, as a parent trying to have conversations, even just like something as simple as like the Super Bowl halftime show, right?
[00:21:12] And so I wanted my kids to know that people didn't want Bed Bunny to perform. Because they're racist. And it was the first time that I essentially used that word. Sometimes I'm like, oh, because they're different than us and people don't like that and people are afraid. And now my husband and I have both just decided like, no, we're gonna start calling.
[00:21:30] Stuff like it is. I think the reason is, is that it's really easy for other people to say, this doesn't impact me right now. It's not my problem. I'm here in New York, right? I don't see this shit. Yes, I can go on Instagram, but I could ignore Instagram. I can not go on LinkedIn. Right? I don't ha It is not directly.
[00:21:48] People really wanted to drill down and think about with that lens and not give a shit, right, and not care about the humanity. It doesn't impact me. I don't care. That's far away. It doesn't impact my life. When in reality, if you are, the reason I think it probably felt so powerful is 'cause anytime you were literally near each other, there's a, there's a proximity that has to happen when you need to be near your neighbors and realize, yeah, that's what's happening.
[00:22:17] I love working from home. I love it. I love doing virtual networking, but there's so much to be said about doing some of this shit in person. And the more that people are getting out from behind their keyboards, the more they're going to feel connected to people. And I think it's just easy for people to say it does that, uh, you know, that doesn't impact me.
[00:22:37] Or like, I, I, you know what? It's too big. I, I can't, what am I gonna do so that I'm gonna do nothing? And, and I think that's where a couple of weeks ago. I've been trying to use the same way where you said as soon as you launched your business, you felt really empowered. I, I, for me, that's been the best part of running our business and trying to give back and being able to speak up in a way that like you can make money and be kind.
[00:23:03] What a fucking concept. Jen, when you and I finally like, when we both were like, oh my God, I'm spiraling the fuck out. We're like, what are we going to do? We then came up with like tiny things to do and being able to impact and then I'm like, I'm gonna keep posting about shit. And that's how you and I got connected, Cari.
[00:23:21] Right? Like
[00:23:21] Cari Brunkow: Yeah. And I wanna acknowledge too on your pre Absolutely. I think get proximate. That's like, and in general, but also you and I have never met in person and. Jennifer, you and I have never met in person, but this is proximity to what you put out into the world. You get back from the world. I really believe that.
[00:23:42] And you putting out that, Hey, I'm here to create community. I'm here to make sure that I knew if somebody in Minneapolis that you see me and you hear me, and that maybe I'm not just screaming at a brick wall. And that goes so, so far. Especially, like I said, when there are so many people, apparently including people that live here, and who knows if it's true, but apparently DHS has a whole budget for trolls on the internet to just discredit what we're saying.
[00:24:12] Yeah. That somebody should investigate that. But it's just nice and I, I say this as a woman too, and I think every woman has their own story. Like there is something so deeply triggering about not feeling seen and heard and listened to.
[00:24:27] Megan Senese: Hmm. And believed
[00:24:28] Cari Brunkow: and believed. You said it before I had to say it and you knew where I was going.
[00:24:33] And that's like every woman. Every woman. And that's what's happening.
[00:24:38] Megan Senese: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there's times when I feel like, you know, you're new to Instagram, but people be like, everyone wants to know like what kind of like lipstick I'm wearing. Right. And so like you guys all ask me, but I do have people on LinkedIn asking me.
[00:24:53] Like, what can I, they're asking me, Megan, what can I do? And I'm like, why are you asking me? I don't fucking know.
[00:24:59] Cari Brunkow: I got, I got ideas.
[00:25:00] Megan Senese: So, okay. So that you and I connected, I did a mini episode where I gave some resources. So yes, we want to hear more ideas on action, makes people feel hopeful and gets you out of feeling stuck.
[00:25:14] So. If you have ideas, I don't care if they're fucking tiny, big, ti stupid, whatever, just lamb on us.
[00:25:21] Cari Brunkow: I got, I gotta, I have a range of ideas. Yeah. Okay. So first of all, uh, our small businesses are hurting. Um, this is going to devastate our economy. It is going to devastate our multicultural business owners gift cards, man.
[00:25:39] Buy your favorite Minnesotan, a cup of coffee, buy your favorite Minnesotans, you know, some dinner and some pizza, and just support the business. And also what I've been doing, which is super fun, and I encourage everybody to do it everywhere, is like if you're in the Caribou, caribou. I don't know if you guys know what I'm talking about.
[00:25:59] Yeah. You know, Jennifer. Yeah, it's a chain, but it's, it's like based, it based out here in Minnesota. I like to pay for the person behind me in the drive through line and say, pay it forward. And then it's fun and I've ended up in like chain and just like little things like that that are $4. To let everybody know that you're not alone in this world, and what we're all going through is overwhelming and hard.
[00:26:28] Listen to people when they tell you that things are happening to them and believe them. I think that is the ultimate and. It makes sense to question and to be cynical. I think, like you said, I'm new to Instagram and like one of the things that I keep getting from my business partner, she keeps being like, Ugh, like you're gonna get taken advantage of.
[00:26:49] There are people trying to make, and maybe, but like I'm willing to get a little taken advantage of. I don't know why anybody, especially right now would be making up. Something that's happening. I mean, this isn't about our like asking
[00:27:00] Megan Senese: for donations because something happened to them. You mean like what, what's the instance of you?
[00:27:04] You,
[00:27:05] Cari Brunkow: yeah. I mean, I think asking for donations or even, I know from experience, I put out a story that immediately trolls just that's, there's no way that's true. She's lying. She's making it up. You know? It's just like, I feel like that's our, our gut, like as though the value is to be seen by as many people on the internet as possible.
[00:27:24] I'll tell you that is my personal nightmare actually. Like. I'm not a content creator and I'm not doing it for the followers, and I'm not doing it for the like, so come at me, like, come at me and tell me I've got ulterior motives. But listen to people know that there is a place for cynicism, but it's not for people surviving something really big.
[00:27:43] Mm. Um, help. Like I said, dollars go a long way if you don't have. Um, a trusted research reach out to those businesses. I think that is the best way, and then you know exactly who you're supporting. I also have a super, truly idea that I'd really like to see happen. I'd like to see, I put this on LinkedIn the other day actually, but I'd like to see as many people from outside of Minnesota become.
[00:28:10] Members of Minnesota Public Radio or get subscriptions to the Minnesota Star Tribune, if there's just like a record number of, you know, just local journalism support in places they live here, they're gonna keep reporting because they're experiencing it. Even the though the rest of the news cycle is moving on.
[00:28:32] I just think it'd be so fun and you could be a sustaining member of Minnesota Public Radio for a dollar a month. Like we not be talking about big funds. The biggest thing I think that everybody should be doing right now is that, and it goes exactly to what you said, Megan, you know it's easy to look away when it's not coming to you.
[00:28:49] This is starting in Minneapolis. This is an ending in Minneapolis, especially if Congress doesn't do the right thing with the negotiations on ice funding in DHS. So especially if you don't live here, call your Congress people and tell them how you feel about what is happening to an American city that you don't live in, and how if you give this organization more money, they will end up in your city.
[00:29:14] They will end up in your town, they will end up in your neighborhood, and. We got a little blindsided, but we have done a really great job with our rapid response groups and we have created a playbook for what inevitably might be coming to other places. So get a jumpstart on it. Have your PTOs and your PTAs start having meetings about how you're gonna protect your schools if this comes to you.
[00:29:41] Jennifer Ramsey: Cari, I wanted to, I wanted to ask you too about your, your law practice. Is, is your law practice, is it immigration related? I, I just wanted to see like if anyone, if they could come to you for anything.
[00:29:53] Cari Brunkow: I'm a civil rights lawyer. I protect constitutional rights and I'm a criminal defense attorney. Here's who you can go to.
[00:29:59] You can go to the National Lawyer's Guild, you can go to Monarch, uh, you can go to the Immigrant Law Center, the National Immigrant Law Center. You can go to. These national organizations that are doing incredible work. The National Lawyer's Guild is not who you go to for immigration. If you are arrested, exercising your constitutional rights, they are a great place to go.
[00:30:24] By calling these organizations, they're also able to track it and have some numbers, and then maybe when we get to a different point in history, we'll be able to, to bring the kinds of cases,
[00:30:34] Jennifer Ramsey: okay, we're not lawyers. And so sometimes it's like, what? You know, where do we. Tell people to go.
[00:30:40] Megan Senese: I mean, I was even telling my husband, like, I'm like, I don't know.
[00:30:42] People are gonna come for me because I have a loud mouth on LinkedIn. They could, I don't fucking, no, I'm being serious.
[00:30:47] Cari Brunkow: No, no. I think they, I think that that's where we're headed and that, uh, that's another point I wanna make. The more of us who speak the safer, we're keeping everybody. Mm-hmm.
[00:30:56] Megan Senese: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:56] Cari Brunkow: You know, if you.
[00:30:58] And courage loves company. So you speaking helps another person speak. You saying that you are saying they can't take us all down. There are more of us, but if. Only Minnesota is gonna stand against this. We are pretty vulnerable. I think a big misconception. So just to put it out there, but a big misconception is that like we're all protesting all the time and impeding law enforcement in protest, what I do think is getting lost is that ice is literally coming to our homes and our neighborhoods.
[00:31:28] People are just walking outside, walking their dogs and making eye contact with guys. That are heavily armed, that are looking for some sort of conflict. You, um. Alex Prety, when he was shot, was not protesting. He was observing what was happening. He saw something happening in a neighborhood that he lived in, and he stood outside with a cell phone that's not protesting.
[00:31:56] There have been images of a situation that happened here in North Minneapolis, uh, where a six month old baby ingested tear gas, and I think that a narrative that's going around is that. You know, these parents are taking their kids like six month old babies to protest at night, and what do you expect?
[00:32:15] That is not what happened. What happened is that a family drove home from their child's basketball game with their six month old in their car and on their way to their house, tear gas was deployed. The these guys are deploying tear gas into the vents of cars. Um, it is. Really important that people know that nobody is out there looking for a fight.
[00:32:41] The fight is coming to us. The, the, we don't know where these guys, what they're driving, you know, they, they're not in marked cars that I wouldn't know until I've run into somebody that they are part of ice. So I think there's also that narrative that's like, well, I don't see them. And it's, you might not see them because.
[00:33:01] They're just eating in the restaurant. They look like regular guys and then they step out and they put a mask on their face when they're actually taking people out of their homes. And I, I think that's important that people know that yes, there are organized protests and we talked about one earlier, but where you are seeing deployment of.
[00:33:21] War grade chemical agents is in residential neighborhoods. And these guys, these guys are not who you want carrying this stuff around. And I'm telling you that as somebody who is watching, I'll just say this, like, and I, I, I mean this from deep inside of my soul that this conversation in itself is an example of how we are all really not alone, you know?
[00:33:46] Yeah. And, um. Right now, you guys might be interviewing me about what's happening in Minneapolis. I hope nobody is ever interviewing you about what is happening in your neighborhoods, although, mm-hmm. San Diego and New York are experiencing it too. This is still happening. Yes, 700 ice agents were sent elsewhere, but 2000 ice agents continue to live in our streets.
[00:34:08] They continue to be put up in hotels with our tax dollars. Uh, people feel unsafe leaving the house. There are people who have not left their house in eight weeks and over eight weeks, and if that is what you voted for, then I just think that we need to have a really serious national conversation. It is irrelevant to me whether you are a Republican or a Democrat.
[00:34:30] It is irrelevant to me how you voted, but what should matter to anybody who cares about democracy? And the rule of law is it's not irrelevant to the current president of the United States how Minnesota voted, and that's why this number of troops are here. Um, and whatever rhetoric or narrative or dialect that is being like put out.
[00:34:55] Is you can pull up and there's somebody did this on Instagram. You can pull up a map of what is red and what is blue from the last election, and it mirrors where you have heavy ice activity. This is retribution and that is not what should be happening from free and fair elections in a country that believes in the rule of law and believes in rights.
[00:35:15] Megan Senese: Yeah, that that's the part that I'm always like, oh yeah, I forgot that. Like I work with all of these lawyers. I work with all of these lawyers, powerful lawyers who work in huge ass firms that make billions of dollars. Right. I always forget like, oh yeah, because we don't talk about, like, I'm not, we're not on civil rights, like we're talking about transactions between companies.
[00:35:34] Right. That's where we're. That's where we've spent our time and our, our career and even having conversations with some of my lawyer clients where they're like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, well, if you don't know what to do, then like, I don't know what to do. Right. And so I think it's helpful to start talking about some of this conversation and, and speaking up in ways that feel comfortable for you.
[00:35:54] We also, we had, there's this other author we had on our show, Elaine Ling Herring, and her book is called Unlearning Silence. And what I like about her approach is that. Your speaking up doesn't always have to be posting on LinkedIn and your speaking up can be small because it's better to do that than do nothing.
[00:36:12] And I think that's a, that's where we're all kind of coming at. Like, hi, whatever you're comfortable with. Just start. Right. A little something. Talk to your neighbor. Share, share an article. I mean, I've been sharing resources as much as we can and so it doesn't always have to be loud, you know, screaming from the rooftops.
[00:36:28] Cari Brunkow: It doesn't, it honestly, it can be. Becoming a member of MPR.
[00:36:33] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:36:34] Megan Senese: yeah.
[00:36:35] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. I love that idea. Cari, I was gonna ask you, do you have any other, um, locally owned, culturally owned businesses in Minnesota, Minneapolis that you wanna give little shouts out to so that we can. Like collect these names.
[00:36:50] Cari Brunkow: So in general, Mercado Central, uh, is a marketplace of 35 different businesses in the corner of Lake Street and Bloomington Avenue in Minneapolis.
[00:36:59] And Mercado Central is at risk of closing. Uh, people who own those businesses do not feel safe leaving their house. They are not able to come to work. And if anybody is looking for more on the ground local support, I think an important point is that. By necessity, a lot of our mutual aid has been decentralized, um, and a lot of people are doing great work and they're doing it in the shadows, and they're doing it on purpose in the shadows.
[00:37:25] There are true heroes and true leaders that don't feel safe and comfortable to show their face or to use their voice in a situation like this. But to your point, Megan, talk about speaking loudly. They're doing everything behind the scenes, and if you wanna get connected to those organizations, I'm happy to be that bridge.
[00:37:42] Um, and anybody can reach out to me. Um, but these are not 5 0 1 C3 organizations. This is not organized in an organized way, but these are good people doing good things that are working directly with families.
[00:37:57] Jennifer Ramsey: When I, uh, graduated from college, I went to, I'm from Iowa, Cari, I moved to Minneapolis, so I, I lived in Minneapolis from the beginning of 98 through the middle of 99.
[00:38:09] And, um, I lived in Edina, so I'm very familiar with 30 degrees below zero and what every, what, you know, like seeing the march that you mentioned and seeing, I still have some people there who I know some, some friends and you know, they went to it and they wore, I mean just like the weather conditions alone are treacherous.
[00:38:28] Right. But to show up like that in community and when I moved there, I had a little bit of a hard time adjusting 'cause it was my first job out of co. It was my. First foray into the corporate world and I had no family there. I was, all my friends were still back in college 'cause I graduate. We graduated a different time, so I had a really hard time adjusting and I worked in corporate finance.
[00:38:50] Arthur Anderson doesn't exist anymore, so all males one day, one of the only other females in my group, she left this poem on my keyboard. And when we were, when I knew you were coming on, I was like. It was one thing. It was a piece of paper. Right. And I took it with me and it is the one thing that I have kept from Minneapolis, which was like 26, 27 years ago.
[00:39:18] I'd like to read it if you both are okay with with that.
[00:39:21] Megan Senese: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:39:21] Cari Brunkow: Thank you.
[00:39:24] Jennifer Ramsey: Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence as far as possible without surrender. Be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly, and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant.
[00:39:43] They too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons. They are vexatious. To the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or better. For always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career.
[00:40:02] However, humble it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business. Affairs for the world is full of trickery, but let this not blind you to what virtue there is. Many persons strive for high ideals and everywhere life is full of. Heroism, be yourself. Especially. Do not feign affection.
[00:40:25] Neither be cynical about love for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass take kindly, the council of the years gracefully surrendering the things of youth nurture, strength of spirit. To shield you in sudden misfortune, but do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
[00:40:47] Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here and whether or not it. Clear to you. No doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul with all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams.
[00:41:18] It is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful and strive to be happy. It's kind of like my love letter back to Minneapolis. You know, I feel like maybe it's a full circle moment. It's my, my love letter back to that city that it makes, you know, me proud to say that I once lived there and, and to see all of the beautiful people and souls and humans that are.
[00:41:42] Rising up and resisting and, you know, taking a stand even though we can't be there like literal feet on the ground. You and me, Megan. Yeah. You know, like, again, this proximity theme is beautiful. You know, we are still all connected to it. And, um, you know, Cari, thank you for doing what you're doing there on the ground in Minneapolis.
[00:42:01] Yeah. So
[00:42:02] Cari Brunkow: I, you know, and you said, I don't know how much I'm doing. I'm trying to do everything I can, but I, I definitely have, there's always more. And also then I have, when I'm doing more, then I'm not with my kiddo and then I am, you know? Yeah. I just, I think there's just no, so all I'm trying to do is follow my gut with where, um, it tells me I should be, and to listen to people that are telling me what is happening to them and believe them.
[00:42:31] And I think that that is something we can all do from anywhere.
[00:42:36] Megan Senese: But you and I had our meet and greet. You were like, let's change the world together. And I kept thinking about that sentence, like over and over and over again, like on repeat, over and over. And I was like, can I, can I change the world? She doesn't mean me, she means her.
[00:42:49] She's a lawyer, not me. Right? And so like, this kept, like going, going, going, going, going, going, going.
[00:42:54] Cari Brunkow: I mean, you, I mean, anybody. Who is willing to engage in community? Anybody who is willing to engage in our democracy and say, we care about the way that we live. We care about people. We care about our neighbors.
[00:43:09] We care about our rights. We care about the rule of law. We care about our constitution, and we care enough about it to not let anybody just come in and decide. It doesn't matter. It matters. Everybody matters.
[00:43:22] Megan Senese: If you're looking for some additional support, contact us at www.stage.guide.