Marketing and business strategy podcast for executives and marketing leaders who want to improve outcomes from marketing.
Marketing veterans Devin Bramhall (Animalz, Help Scout) & Margaret Kelsey (InVision, OpenView) use their combined 20+ years of experience to increase the business impact of marketing by creating shared understanding of its purpose and outcomes among marketing leaders, founders/CEOs & others in the C-suite.
Created in partnership with Share Your Genius
An award-winning B2B podcast production company: https://www.shareyourgenius.com/
Devin Bramhall [00:00:01]:
Listen, I want to write a LinkedIn post and write the names of every single fucking guest that has pitched us because 100% of them have not listened to the podcast.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:14]:
With, like, newsletters and stuff. With content, you don't have to be the best because it's not like somebody's going to only purchase one software product for it. So you can be like, living in an ecosystem and still win.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:24]:
Which goes back to my original gripe, which is that you need marketers at the very beginning precisely because building trust, building communities, and for marketing to work, you need time.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:43]:
I'm Margaret Kelsey.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:45]:
And I'm Devin Bramhall.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:46]:
And this is Don't Say Content.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:48]:
A show created in partnership with Share Your Genius.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:52]:
Okay. We have a fun episode today.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:54]:
We really do.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:55]:
This is like a light hearted episode.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:58]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:58]:
I don't know if we even talked about it or whether I was just desperate to find something interesting to talk about because I was bored with marketing, which happens sometimes, but this one is about the dumb things that employees and bosses say about marketing. Because everyone says dumb stuff. And so we were like, it's what makes us human.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:22]:
Yeah. Being dumb.
Devin Bramhall [00:01:24]:
And also, like marketing especially, I think it's so easy to fall back on jargon terms that are highly interpretable to make yourself sound smart. And both sides deploy that to varying degrees of hilariousness.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:44]:
And when you say both sides, you mean like bosses, CEOs and marketers themselves are both doing that on both sides?
Devin Bramhall [00:01:50]:
Yeah. Like CEOs pretending they know anything about marketing when they definitely don't. And it's so obvious. VCs too. You're just like, wow.
Margaret Kelsey [00:01:58]:
And I think the thing I always go back to is like, marketing isn't hard, but it's not simple.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:08]:
Yes. That is. Oh, my gosh, I have, like, the best client right now. And that's literally what I was saying to her the other day. I was like, look what I'm saying to you. That's going to take more time than I thought. It's not complicated and I know how to do it, but you are completely not set up to support me doing it. And therefore the tentacles are long and I have to find a way to be able to do it despite you not being ready in any capacity, right. I think what's really cool is when you work with the right person, they're like, I trust you, I get it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:36]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:36]:
But most of us aren't. And so it's been. What do you mean? And.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:39]:
I think it's easy, but it's complicated.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:45]:
Yes.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:46]:
It's rocket science, but it is psychology.
Devin Bramhall [00:02:49]:
That's a great way to say it because the thing that works is ultimately going to be intuitive, but in order for you to see that, you have to understand common sense around these things like human behavior, and you mostly don't.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:11]:
And it's hard to check in with your intuition.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:16]:
You know it's hard for us because I have to find a way to explain one plus two to you, but in a way that is both complicated and then ultimately simple, so that you buy in for five minutes, long enough for me to do.
Margaret Kelsey [00:03:29]:
Any time that I was advising and talking to a head of marketing, it was not the marketing that was the problem. It was always the executive alignment and the ability to like, petition and get what you knew you needed to do to be, like, approved or have access to it. It was never actually a marketing challenge.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:52]:
No, me neither. And you, what's funny, I was preparing an update for my client today that I'm going to talk to them about later, and I literally found myself writing this in all seriousness and plan to say this to their face. I'm like, please stop asking founders and investors for ideas. I was like, they don't know. Investors are some of the worst business strategists I've ever met.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:17]:
I know.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:18]:
And founders. The problem with founders is if they've been successful before, it was usually by accident, like they were right place, right time or whatever. And so whatever they did for marketing, it wasn't them. I think it's like the marketers are really the best business strategists, the good marketers, obviously. And they're not in a position where anyone listens to them. And the people who they need to convince are so unskilled that they're. They don't know what they don't know and they think they know a lot. And so it.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:54]:
They just make it more complicated than it has to be. It's so dumb. This work that we do is so silly stupid. Can you imagine how many more companies would have succeeded if they just started by having a marketer on the team at the very beginning?
Margaret Kelsey [00:05:11]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:11]:
I don't care what company you are, you need marketing at the jump. Because if you don't, you are going to make a bunch of decisions that you're going to have to undo at a time when you need marketing to make forward progress, not fix all your mistakes, which is thwarting any forward progress you might have by doing anything net new. Yeah, that is. The reality is actually if you do not bring a marketer on as a co-founder of your company, you're doing it wrong. And I am, like, done trying to find another way to say that. Because every single person I work with or for that is true.
Margaret Kelsey [00:05:48]:
Yeah, definitely. With, like, in the software space and software startups, I think it became so easy to build software that they missed that piece of it, right. It used to take more time and be more expensive. So you would have brought in, hey, we should be building this for a specific audience. Let's figure out who would actually have this need so we can go do it. And then I think, like, it got so much easier to build software companies that it was like, oh, we'll do all that, like, product work first and then we'll just have the marketer figure out who we can market this to and then spin them around 20 different ways and change who the target audience will be and then be like, why isn't this working?
Devin Bramhall [00:06:27]:
Look, I think AudiencePlus is such a good example of why marketers are necessary. In the beginning.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:32]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:32]:
They were struggling with product market fit. Anthony talked about this. It wasn't like, and that's normal, but like, at the same time they were building a brand even if they didn't fully understand the product, were like, had a lot of affinity for and wanted to be. To interact with. And so you have to do both, right. You can't just have really good marketing and not have a good product.
Margaret Kelsey [00:06:53]:
Yes.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:53]:
But this is another example of, like, why product and marketing need to be on the core founding team and work very closely together. Because in the early days especially, a lot of the quote unquote marketing you're doing is really like product-related stuff.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:10]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:10]:
Right.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:10]:
Like product research.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:10]:
Mhmm. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:13]:
And product marketing messaging. They're testing different engagement emails with your existing customers. Because a lot of times, like with some of my clients, I'm like, I wish I had six months to like, just conduct experiments and try stuff without you having to hit a specific KPI by this time. Because realistically, if you had done that from the get go, we wouldn't be here.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:43]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:07:44]:
And it's frustrating because, like, I want to show I want their problems to be simple and I want to make progress really quickly, but then it's, you can't because you're like constantly giving bad news. I'll find a quick way.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:54]:
And then you're like, there's no quick way. Yeah. And I think about, if marketing is fundamentally about changing people's thoughts and behaviors, that takes a while, right.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:06]:
And you need to build trust to do it, which means you should start Building trust in the industry from the very beginning. This is the thing. You bring a marketer on and you're like, okay, cool, we're gonna turn on marketing. I'm like, that is not. Yeah, like what?
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:22]:
Well, you can. If you just follow that one easy playbook that other successful company did and talked about. And we'll just copy that and that will work and we can just turn it on.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:33]:
Oh, my God. I really want all founders to just stop listening to VCs when it comes to growth advice, because they're only coming at it from their one perspective, which is logical to them and their needs. They should be pushing up against them more, but they can't because they don't know anything about marketing, which is why they need a marketer on the founding team. Look, I'll have a job forever.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:04]:
Yeah, this way. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:07]:
But it's not getting any more fun. It's why B2B is so far behind B2C all the time. Because it's like we're just chasing our own tail around and around, wondering why things aren't getting better. And I'm like, hey, guess what? SaaS doesn't sell itself anymore. Like, SaaS isn't buying from SaaS because SaaS doesn't have any money. And the companies that are are selling, like, identity software. Those folks, yes, they're buying, but they don't necessarily need digital marketing, to your point, or. And so it's like the whole thing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:38]:
Yeah. So what you did, you posted on LinkedIn, I amplified it a little bit. And you asked people to share the silliest, funniest, craziest things that either they've heard from bosses or that founders have heard from marketers, right? Yes.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:59]:
Somebody wrote me and was like, oh, don't say crazy. It's whatever. And I was like, guys, we need to calm down.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:07]:
Yeah, no, I get it. That there has been that push. And I try to. Not internally, like, with my team and stuff. I try to use wild instead of crazy.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:16]:
I am so sick of the language police. It is so much easier to step in it for something that I was just like, know what? Calm down, everybody calm down. You're missing the point.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:29]:
I'm not saying that people are categorically crazy.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:33]:
I don't even want to talk about it because, like, everyone with common sense knows that it's a common. I'm like, please. I call myself crazy on the regular. And I don't want to use a different word because that is the correct word for how I feel that I am a lot of the time.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:52]:
You're owning it. You're owning it.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:51]:
It's just. It's a classic case of missing the forest through the trees. It's if you want to make change, policing a word isn't going to do it. For example, one person told me they were working on a company blog. So this person was working at a company, and their boss gave them direction on the company blog and how to write for it. And their boss told them, I know. I don't know if I can say. Can you say it?
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:24]:
Yes. Their boss gave them writing direction, feedback that they should write blog posts in the style of The Simpsons. And she was like, my dude, if I could write like The Simpsons, I would not be working here.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:40]:
And apparently it was a blog post about making an apple pie.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:46]:
ChatGPT could probably help that. Write an episode of The Simpsons about apple pies.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:52]:
Honestly, there's a part of me that's. That would be an interesting. There's something about a post about apple pie written in, but it's also. Which character?
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:03]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:04]:
Do you know what I mean? I think that's such bad direction because it doesn't mean anything.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:09]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:10]:
And you know what? This was a big thing on animals in terms of how rigorous we were about defining what quality meant to us, because I think every company should decide for themselves, but it means that this is, like, the core of our podcast name. It's. That's why you need to get specific. Don't say content, say something.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:31]:
I got feedback one time. I'm trying to remember what it was, but, like, the thing stuck in my head. It was like, blog feedback. And it was like, this needs to be written in, like, gonzo style journalism.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:42]:
My God, I can't stand. You know why? Because a lot of the people that talk about gonzo style journalism have only ever read Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, and they haven't really dove into Hunter S. Thompson's, like, this full genius of writing. I'm like, tell me you read Fear on the campaign trail and then tell me what gonzo journalism is short of that, please, please.
Margaret Kelsey [00:13:08]:
And also, I'll just, like, quickly become Hunter S. Thompson too, real quick.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:13]:
No problem. A genius. An absolute genius.
Margaret Kelsey [00:13:16]:
I actually, for this B2B SaaS blog.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:19]:
As a baby coming up, writer Hunter S. Thompson ,and Tom Robbins, and Chuck Palahniuk were my three inspirations. That is who I wanted to write. They were the ones that I quote, unquote, like, copied in terms of my. The style. As I was learning to find what my style was so much, much respect.
Margaret Kelsey [00:13:37]:
I should have hired you then based on that feedback.
Devin Bramhall [00:13:40]:
I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Okay, so one person worked for a boss who had a background in a really big successful company and was a data scientist. Also, this is an example of, like, CEOs trying to pretend they know marketing. He'd be like, oh, how many conversions did that webinar get? Their product was complex, right? So it was like a B2B data quality monitoring software. And the sales cycles were really long. And so asking a question about the conversion rate on a single webinar is like, just straight up the wrong metric.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:23]:
How many times have you experienced that, though?
Devin Bramhall [00:14:26]:
Every time.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:27]:
That feels so common of, like, people like, oh, marketing is about conversion. So how did that one piece of whatever convert, and you're like.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:39]:
Oh, my gosh, I have more tea on this. From the person they had written in the story that their boss was Learning Marketing 101. And I was like, were they literally, like, trying to learn marketing by studying it, or did you mean they were learning marketing 101 by having a marketer and trying to understand how to market a product? I assume it's the latter, but I have to know. And they were like, no, it was the former. He was reading HubSpot blogs and coming in with the latest about things like Flywheel Marketing. At one point, the boss turned off paid ads. Other times he would drill us on things like, how many customers did that blog post convert? And he would listen to Tim Ferriss and then be like, this is our marketing strategy now.
Margaret Kelsey [00:15:39]:
We said that at Startup Grind, remember when we were watching those presentations and we would watch people, like, hold up and take photos of whatever slide. And it was like during these presentations that we were like, I can watch this happening in real time of this founder slacking this photo of the new marketing strategy to their head of marketing. We were, like, cringing watching it happen. We're like no.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:59]:
That was so hilarious. And so I still don't question that is exactly what happened. There's no part of me that's, oh, it was a.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:06]:
Maybe they were doing something else. It's. No, that was a direct slack saying, hey, I'm at this conference. This should be our new marketing strategy.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:14]:
Also, like, I just get such white guy quote fatigue. There's so many people who, like, haven't said anything new in a while. It feels very table stakes, what these people are actually saying. Like, a lot of the stuff that I thought was inspiring, but, like, I was in my 20s, like, a lot of the stuff that they're espousing. I'm like, guys, have you educated yourself since then? Because it's like what they're saying is so basic and it's been repackaged so many times. I'm like, this is not brilliance.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:46]:
Yeah, well, that was specifically. Yeah, the startup grind too. When the ones that we were watching people take pictures of was so table stakesy that we were like, oh God, that's not new.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:56]:
I know.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:57]:
Doing that for so long.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:59]:
And the problem is there's no way to make a CEO or anyone in power look stupid because they just have already decided, Right? And so you're like, you can't even shame them into good behavior if it comes to that because they just fire you. They're like, no. And find someone to tell them what they want to hear or find someone that they will listen to.
Margaret Kelsey [00:17:21]:
I had a good one where a marketer was telling me about a time that she was reviewing like the proposed product launch strategy and it was mostly centered around this blog post. And when she was like, hey, for what we know about our target audience, do they read blog posts? Because they were like selling to like executives. And the answer was obviously no. And she was like, so why is that our product? Like, why are we doing that?
Devin Bramhall [00:17:54]:
I am like trying to not laugh so loud that it's like, it's so good.
Margaret Kelsey [00:18:01]:
It's oh, because the HubSpot blog said that that's a part of a product launch checklist probably.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:07]:
Oh my God. And you know what's funny is I did learn marketing from HubSpot because, like, we all had to learn from like HubSpot Customary O mailchimp. Like those guys, they knew what they were talking about back then. They were right in the beginning, but it's like marketers have evolved since then. HubSpot actually has articles about modern marketing practices. It's just that for some reason the executives aren't reading that. They're reading the old shit.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:32]:
And it's just you guys are like, I am constantly amazed at how technologically backwards the people who are funding tech are. The way they talk, the way they think that people adopt things, like they're just sticks in the mud. And I'm like, you're still using Outlook, do you know what I mean? You're just. Everything you use is so stodgy. It's like, why are we listening to you?
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:04]:
I mean, I experienced that firsthand being in the VC world for a while and understanding that chasm of the expected channels of the go to market. Motion being so outdated from actual how people educate themselves and consume information this day and age. Yeah, email's great. I guess direct emailing, everyone is a little like that channel saturated now, right? And again, going back to like.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:33]:
No, email still performs. That's the thing is it's a saturated platform, but I think that it's still good. It's an owned audience, in which case, like, it's performing better than it used to because people are doing a better job bringing on subs. Like, I feel like in a way the newsletter is. Is more like a blog than it used to be.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:53]:
And I agree with you about subscriber based emails. This was direct emailing, like cold calling emailing. What? Like all the, like the. I'm sure you get these all the time of people just like randomly emailing you and you can tell it's from a mail merge that they bought some list and whatever. Yeah, that was like the. I'm talking about that. I completely agree. Subscriber based emails and newsletters are still performing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:20:17]:
I think that the direct email, the channel is absolutely inundated and you just immediately can see based on the subject line, to delete it.
Devin Bramhall [00:20:27]:
Listen, I want to write a LinkedIn post and write the names of every single fucking guest that has pitched us because a hundred percent of them have not listened to the podcast because they're like, hey, I would make a great guest. And I was like, I don't respond to any of them. I responded once. I forget why, but I was like, this is everyone and I get them all. I'm. And this is not an exaggeration almost every single day of the week.
Margaret Kelsey [00:21:00]:
It's because we're so popular.
Devin Bramhall [00:21:02]:
I actually. Wait, hold on. This person reached out to me on LinkedIn and they said, I saw you have a community and I want to meet you and allow you to vet me as a potential guest speaker for your group. And then there was some other stuff and then I didn't respond, obviously.
Margaret Kelsey [00:21:19]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:21:20]:
And their follow up was, hey, did you get my last message? I'd love to share some value with your audience and sit down for a chat with you. I'm like, I'm sorry, do I work for you? There was another one too. They're like, as an author of this and that book and a podcast host, I'm open to being a guest on your podcast sometime to talk about blah, blah. And I was like, oh, sir. Oh, sir, Email is just people trying to offload whatever the next step is onto you. It's why so many Emails you get when you're like working on projects or whatever, are people not sending you any material? They're like following up because they want you to do the work. That's why I don't answer. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:03]:
It's why my email policy is if I get back to you in a month, then I got back to you on time.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:09]:
Yeah. Because I'm setting my priorities and my priority list.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:14]:
Yeah. And shout out to the folks at arc.dev because they're the exact opposite of this. They wanted to do a webinar with me. And Christine, who's the head of marketing there, is like queen. I have never worked with anybody who's such a partner in next things offers. Like, you know, provides materials to help me out to love those people. Anyway, we should get to some more of these because I'm having a really fun time on this episode, but I feel that the value we promise in the title.
Devin Bramhall [00:22:53]:
Okay. Oh, I had a couple good ones from a friend of mine who runs an agency. These are like client nightmares. And they were bizarre. So this one I honest to God can't believe, but it is true. The client notified them, the agency, that they gave feedback, and the agency doesn't see it in the Google Doc. And so they ask for the client for it again. And she, frustrated, insists that she did send it.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:24]:
And so we booked a call with the client to discuss the invisible feedback. And on the call, the client lifts a ream of paper to show us and holds pages up to the camera one by one. And the feedback begins with, make it more magical. And this client runs a division for a very big successful company you've heard of. And they all operate this way. This client truly thought that they were the problem to the point where they. I think my friend told me they fired them.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:03]:
Yeah, no, that feels like I. I can tell that would not be. That's a fireball client. That's like a. I don't know how to work with you.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:09]:
No, the client fired them.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:11]:
The client thought they were the problem.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:15]:
This is why I had that brief minute this year where I was like, should I just go corporate? Should I just try to get myself a job at a really big company? Because it sounds hysterical. So easy.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:27]:
So I think maybe that note at the top of the paper was more of a request for the paper to become magical. That could be said if you can.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:39]:
Be high up at a company like that.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:41]:
Yeah, like I will be.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:43]:
I would be rich if I got one thing done in a year. I'd be a fucking genius.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:48]:
I know. Like, I know things move so slowly in big corporate.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:51]:
Oh, my gosh. Okay. The same person had another client name. Example says, I can't remember who posted this, but one freelance writer in my network told this story that a client hired them to do a case study. On the kickoff call, the writer asks who the customer is of the client. The client says, what customer? The writer says, the one you want to do a case study on. Client says, we don't have one. Writer pauses. Client - I thought you said you were a writer. Oh, my honey, I think you need a fiction writer because that is hysterical.
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:39]:
And I think it was that last episode too. We were talking about how, like even that idea of what's a testimonial, What's a customer case study? What's a customer story? Where we use all of those terms interchangeably, but this person was coming up with an entirely new type of content for a case study.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:58]:
Can you make up a customer?
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:00]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:26:01]:
And what we might have done for them and the results. There are lots of smart people in this world. Why do so many dumb people have companies? I don't honestly understand it. I was like, how could you be that dumb and, like, have a company? They just don't. I'm wondering how you get through your day to day life.
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:28]:
First of all, I thought it's interesting that when you're in school, even in college, you think about the people that you met, right. And like the people that you knew. And in college you're like, there was some people that were clearly killing it and some people that you're like, what are you gonna do?
Devin Bramhall [00:26:43]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:44]:
And then years later, you find out that some of those people are doctors. You know what I mean? Some of those people are making important decision. And it is a little bit of like, I felt that way with high school people and college people, where you realize what people are doing in the world. You're like, oh, it's. It's just like everyone dispersed into the world. And there was no, like, school was like, oh, there's like a hierarchy and there's whatever. And then people just get dispersed into the world to do whatever they want.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:10]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:11]:
And I do think that audacity outperforms intelligence a lot of times.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:17]:
I don't know. It's hard for me to say because I consult.
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:22]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:23]:
Like, it's hard to really believe that because I'm like, man, but I will say that what was cool about my school is I went to a city school, so it was a commuter school. I gotten into NYU, but I couldn't afford it. My parents couldn't even be co-signers. Like, they didn't have any money. And I went to UMass Boston, and the folks in my class, many of them were women of color who were the single bread earner. And either they were, like, single moms, or they were the single bread earner and who were working full time, taking care of their children and going to school.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:01]:
Wow.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:02]:
And they were the smartest people in the class. They did their work without being a little bitch about it. And, like, they just got you. And they were, like, calm. They were just, like, they were the best people to work around because it showed me this perspective. I was like, my problems are not problems. I should really rise to the occasion. And it was like, that's a really inspiring environment to be in versus a school where everybody has lots of money and they're like, oh, I have to go to class.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:31]:
It's no, you get to go to class.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:33]:
Yeah. And also there's how frustrating it could be to be around people who, like, think that solvable things are problems.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:42]:
I always say, if you need something done, give it to a mom. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:46]:
Or just, like, a woman in general, because I'm not a mom and I can do everything, including take care of other people's kids.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:53]:
I had a head of marketing who was told when they first started by their boss that marketers always just want to change and fiddle with the website and wouldn't let them change anything on the website for, I think it was about a year. They couldn't touch the website because marketers just want to always go. And it's like, yeah, the biggest digital footprint where people are looking for things. That is core to our job role.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:26]:
Oh, my God. That's. Well, a. Also, I think those days are a little bit over because of the way people's behavior is changing in the world since the pandemic where I literally. I think that's like, our next episode, actually. I was like, do we even need websites anymore? Like, I find myself more often than not being, like, for certain. Like, to your point. Like, there are certain industries now that it's not the starting point for the relationship.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:53]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:53]:
And it's not even really the nurture point either, but, yeah. The. One of the biggest reasons why I never wanted to be cmo, Like, I was happy to skip from VP to CEO because I was like, the CMO job sucks. And it usually involves you fighting an inordinate amount with the CEO and the CTO and the. Whoever. The lead Designer is about the website and you are the only person who is proposing doing anything that will impact the business. And you end up having to fight for months, compromise and end up with something that's like pretty, doesn't sell the product. Like this dumb combination.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:36]:
Frankenstein.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:37]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:38]:
But I, I think it is true. I mean, my team is so small right now that I'm actually like, I'm a cmo, but I'm also doing like hands on marketing, but I have heard that and I have witnessed the fact that ultimately that is the CMO's job. And again, to go from VP to CMO, you, nobody teaches you those like executive alignment skills. Nobody's, hey, this is the work now you just get like thrust into it.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:02]:
Like seasoned CEO, CMOs. Like the people like my boss who I'm thinking of during from this, like he knew what he was doing. He was good at all those things and it's just like impossible. Like people who found companies. There was a time early on where the people who founded companies were so precious about their website because they, for some reason they thought it was the core of their like human identity. And they were like, this must be right. And we're like, this is a business tool. Calm the fuck down.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:32]:
But anyway, so this one was interesting because someone posted on my post about a founder who told him at a VC bootcamp that they consider running a podcast a red flag for founders. He says apparently it's a signal that running the company isn't their top priority. And what was interesting about this is one, I agree in general that it is a red flag when that's what a founder or CEO comes to you with when you first start. That has happened to me and I was like, okay, do you want to launch a completely new product, build an audience and then hopefully some of those people will convert in a year plus to. I understand why it's a red flag. I think nowadays, like when my boss said that to me, it was more than five years ago. It was like six or seven years ago. Which case, like podcast, they weren't as easy to spin up.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:27]:
Yeah, they didn't. Yeah, I was gonna say like the same like op structure. Like now it's. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:32]:
You weren't logically like repurposing content like it just none of the tools were there make it make sense. I do think now it is different. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea. It's definitely not the first thing I would go to. I've seen some agencies deploy podcasts as a means of Lead gen and building trust. That I think is really smart. Omniscient does that. And I'm like, I think that's really smart.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:54]:
But then what was interesting was that it sparked a little bit of a, like, healthy, productive debate about podcasts.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:04]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:04]:
In general and that whole topic. And I have to say, I have to agree with Deborah on the way she sees podcasts, which is like, their product in and of themselves. And I believe in all the benefits around, like, learning about your customer and creating content and all that stuff, but I still agree that it is a product and it's a lot. I mean, you and I literally launched our own podcast. And, like, it's work to not just do it, but keep it going and keep it interesting. And we don't try to grow at all, but if we wanted to, we're like, it's fine, we just do it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:46]:
I don't care.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:47]:
Keep following us. We're like, okay, great.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:49]:
No, but I. So this brings up a really good point, because I do think that is the right way to think about any content program, whether it's a podcast or you're like, activating a founder's brand through some sort of social channel or even a newsletter. Like, you have to think of it as a program product, right. What is the product market fit? What is the content market fit? Does the content fit the market? Is this going to have product market fit? Are we differentiated against what other content programs are out there for people to get informed about? Whatever it is, how are we going to be different with, like, newsletters and stuff? With content, you don't have to be the best, because it's not like somebody's going to only purchase one software product for it. So you can be like, living in an ecosystem and still win. It's like more of a cooperative thing, but you do have to think about all of those things.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:42]:
And is the target audience of this content program also the target audience for the product that then they could buy? Because you could build something totally adjacent, right. And I think a lot of founder brands and the content programs that are with that can easily go in that direction of. It's, oh, yeah, like the founders. LinkedIn is all like other CEOs and their friends and they're building all this content over there, but it doesn't actually talk to the target audience of who they're actually trying to sell their own product to. And so I do think you have to think about that and think about, okay, do these two products, the actual product and now the content product, do they have the same audience, because otherwise you can do a lot of work and not actually help the company at all.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:24]:
Does your customer listen to podcasts? Let's start there. No, but it's true. I agree with that wholeheartedly. And I think for me, so many people get caught up on the what, when. What you're saying, rightfully, I think, is that it's more about the how.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:41]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:42]:
It's not, should we launch a podcast? It. The question should be where do we have unique advantage to capture or to attract our target customer? Or an ecosystem within our industry that includes our target customer in a way that is either faster or whatever. That's the question to ask. The channel will fall into place after that. The problem with the founder request is that they're always thinking about, oh, I should. The latest one is, oh, we should have a YouTube channel. I'm like, why? Give me the mathematical reasons.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:30]:
And also, what is the content that you're gonna put there? What's the message? What's the story? What's the thing that's actually gonna be helpful? And to your point, it could be any channel.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:40]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:41]:
Kind of like, channels don't even matter. Put it out on whatever channel you want to put it out on if the target audience actually lives there and habits there, but it doesn't really matter if your target audience looks at LinkedIn a bunch is on Instagram, reads email newsletters, sometimes listens to podcasts. I don't care which channel you start with first.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:01]:
I do. I care that. What are you. Like, they may be on there, but what are they using it for? And are they on Instagram for play? Like, when I see the funny ClickUp videos on Instagram, I love them, but I'm like, I love them because they're entertaining. I don't need your software, right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:37:18]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:18]:
And so I'm kind of like, where is your audience making business decisions? And so even when you come down to tactics, it's like this whole idea of, like, executive marketing or thought leadership from the executive. It's like, for how many days will you be interested in this and make time to create content? They may be perfect as a marketing strategy, but they're not because practically they don't have the time to commit to it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:37:50]:
That's not a big thing.
Devin Bramhall [00:37:51]:
And so it's, for me, it's not about anything. It's not about the channel. It's not about the tactic. You have to choose based on where your unique advantage is. And that unique advantage includes your ability to execute on it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:06]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:06]:
Otherwise, it's not strategy.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:08]:
And that's the thing. You were joking around that we haven't been focused on growth, but consistency.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:16]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:17]:
Is growth. With content programs, you don't have to do a whole bunch of hacky shit. You just have to be consistent in the program. And that's where people. I agree. That's where people get kneecapped all of the time in every content program is that they just aren't consistent with it. And it shocks me every time. And it shocked me with our podcast.
Margaret Kelsey [00:38:38]:
It shocked me when I was at that conference and somebody is like, hey, you're Margaret, you have that podcast. Don't say content. And I was at like, you know, conference for distribution. I'm like, whoa, that's strange. And it's because we didn't stop.
Devin Bramhall [00:38:51]:
Which goes back to my original gripe, which is that you need marketers at the very beginning. Precisely because building trust, building communities, and for marketing to work, you need time.
Margaret Kelsey [00:39:13]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:14]:
I honest to God am like, please, either start investing in content early, but don't spend the most amount of money on it, right. Get someone in who can play around the early Greg Chiotis, right. Who were just brilliant people who did cool stuff and try things and do have a paid media program. I do think if you need to show growth right away and you're in an industry where that, where doing like paid search or paid social or whatever actually works, which is a big. Yeah, but just do that for a while. Like the number of companies that came to us, they were like, yep, we started off doing paid media and now we're ready to build like the more consistent organic engine underneath it.
Devin Bramhall [00:39:57]:
I'm like, smart. That makes sense, but it really goes back to, you have to have marketing from the very beginning. And by beginning, I mean on your founding team or if not, you need more marketers than you need these people who made a company a thing 10 years ago. Because I'm like, 10 years ago is ancient history as it relates to digital marketing. And so they don't have any good advice for you, probably.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:26]:
And also I think that you need to reward marketers consistency.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:32]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:40:33]:
And not their shiny one off projects and ideas. I mean, the thing that I've said the most over the last couple years is repetition doesn't ruin the prayer. Repetition doesn't ruin the prayer. Repetition doesn't ruin the prayer. It's, hey, we're saying the same thing again, it's. That's marketing. We're saying the same thing.
Devin Bramhall [00:40:50]:
That's why all those dudes are continue to annoyingly quote the same guys over and over because those guys are saying the same thing over and over for years.
Margaret Kelsey [00:41:01]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:41:02]:
Come on, people.
Margaret Kelsey [00:41:03]:
That's the biggest kneecap is Especially when you're talking about, like, activating a founder's brand or some executive that's going to make content, is that it's normal for human beings to get sick of themselves repeating the same message. I'm sure you knew that as a CEO too, is you have to be so consistent and repeat the message because the 17th time that you've said it, somebody's actually hearing it for the first time or thinking about that thing for the first time. And so that's a piece of it, too. Is. Is this executive going to get bored of saying the same thing or delivering the same message again and again?
Devin Bramhall [00:41:34]:
Yeah. There are people who worked for me who I see, they're like, oh, this idea. Or whatever. And it's funny because I'm like, okay. It took, like, many times saying it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:41:46]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:41:46]:
And they don't even realize. No one's, like, stealing an idea or anything. I don't believe in that. I think every idea is already out there, but, like, they're espousing things that I was trying to bring into the culture back then now. And I'm like, good, because the message came across, but it's. That's how long it takes.
Devin Bramhall [00:42:01]:
That's happened to me before. I literally looked at a blog post I wrote in 2018 where I was basically like, community is the new marketing. And I talked about my strategy that I don't think I ever published this. I just found it. I was like, this is everything I'm writing in my book and everything that's, like, current and the topic du jour. And it was 2018.
Margaret Kelsey [00:42:28]:
I feel like the TLDR of our podcast that we've talked about before is everything's the same as it always was, and everything is completely different. And if we can hold those. Those truths both together, that is the complexity of marketing right now.
Devin Bramhall [00:42:42]:
And no one's ideas are new.
Margaret Kelsey [00:42:44]:
No, we're not.
Devin Bramhall [00:42:46]:
None of us are original. And it's fine.
Margaret Kelsey [00:42:49]:
We're all just little ChatGPT is mixing things together that have already existed.
Devin Bramhall [00:42:53]:
Yeah. Like, the only thing that will Margaret gave you, the most true, accurate advice that you will ever get is it's not enough to have the idea. You have to say that idea so many times over such a long period of time. And that is how it's not the what. It's the how you have to Be really skilled at spreading it and owning it. Otherwise you don't own it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:43:19]:
Yeah. And that's the head fake too. Is that bringing it back to this episode? It also works internally when you're talking to your boss or if you are a founder that is talking to marketers that you really want them to understand your vision. It's the same thing.
Devin Bramhall [00:43:35]:
Yes.
Margaret Kelsey [00:43:36]:
It's like that consistency of message, consistency of repeating the same idea.
Devin Bramhall [00:43:42]:
Is it, though?
Margaret Kelsey [00:43:43]:
Well, if it doesn't work, then you gotta find a new job.
Devin Bramhall [00:43:45]:
I'm just saying the content marketer refrain, which is, they say content takes a long time. That one never really resonated even with me because it's true, but also, like, you can say that till you're brewing the face. It only is going to make your boss think you're less qualified, but yes, you have to be able to make the right case and say it a lot and then prove it. It actually, what you're saying doesn't apply to marketers getting buy in from their bosses because it's just they're a whole different brain. All right, this was really fun. It's not at all where I thought we were going to go with it, but there it is.
Devin Bramhall [00:44:21]:
It never is. All right, everybody, Godspeed and good luck. Bye.
Margaret Kelsey [00:44:28]:
Bye ya'll.
Devin Bramhall [00:44:29]:
Okay, y'all, that's a wrap. Thank you as always for listening.
Margaret Kelsey [00:44:34]:
We'll be back next week. And just remember, you're doing great. You're doing great.
Devin Bramhall [00:44:39]:
30 percent of you are doing great. The rest, you gotta get your together.
Margaret Kelsey [00:44:44]:
Come on, you know, you know which side you're on this week.
Devin Bramhall [00:44:47]:
You know, you know.
Margaret Kelsey [00:44:49]:
See you next week.
Devin Bramhall [00:44:51]:
Bye.
Margaret Kelsey [00:44:51]:
Bye.
Devin Bramhall [00:44:55]:
You and I literally launched our own podcast. And, like, it's work to not just do it, but keep it going and keep it interesting. And we don't try to grow at all, but if we wanted to.
Margaret Kelsey [00:45:12]:
We're like, it's fine. We just do it. I don't care.
Devin Bramhall [00:45:15]:
Keep following us. We're like, okay, great.