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Velkommen til podkasten 17-målspodden. Podkasten lages av Siri Smith og Knut Vindenes, som er ansatt på HVL.
Navnet til podkasten reflekterer FNs 17 bærekraftmål: https://fn.no/om-fn/fns-baerekraftsmaal
Vårt mål med podkasten er at de ulike episodene vil gi deg innsikt i hvordan både HVL og ulike aktører i samfunnet, som politikere, næringsliv, offentlige og frivillige organisasjoner, osv. jobber med bærekraftig utvikling.
Vi minner om at bærekraftmålene til FN skal være innfridd i 2030, så tiden begynner å bli knapp.
Om du har tips til tema, personer, eller prosjekt vi burde lage en episode om, så tips oss gjerne med å sende en epost til Siri: Siri.Smith@hvl.no
Hi, this is 17-målspodden with Siri Smit and Knut Vindenes.
Today we are going to talk about cooperation. Remember the UN Sustainability Goal number 17, partnership for the goals. The SDGs can only be realized with strong global partnerships and cooperation. This episode will also be part of a course about cooperation for PhD students, a course made by HVL, the university we are in now. Vidar Top is our guest.
Welcome to you, Vidar. Thank you. It's been a great opportunity to meet with you. Very good. You are a PhD research fellow at the University of Southeastern Norway, right? That's correct. Yes, that would be me. Yeah, good. Department of Business, Strategy and Political Sciences, according to the webpage. That's good. If we read a little bit from the website, it says that Vidar Top has trained 30,000 people in 27 countries on behavior change to improve results. His research focus the past 20 years has been on execution throughout teams and organizations, beginning in the boardroom. Vidar has authored books on topics related to corporate governance and leadership, such as influence, questioning skills, rhetoric, change management, crucial conversations and accountability. And your PhD thesis is according to this webpage, silence and violence in the boardroom. I guess that's correct. That's correct. That's my dream topic, I guess. Yeah. And then you also brought the book in Norwegian called “Slik vinner du styrerommet - avgjørende samtaler for styremedlemmer”. In English “How to win the boardroom, crucial conversations for board members”. Right? Yeah. And well, personally, I read that book and I'm a part of the corporate think tank, which you facilitate and I'm a member. So I know you from that context. Yeah. Okay, Siri, hi to you as well. Hello. Should we just start with the questions? Let's do that. Vidar, it's nice to have you here with us today and we're very excited to listen to you. But we would like to learn a bit more about who are you and what have you done in addition to what we've heard. So could you tell us a bit more about yourself? Well, that's a good question. I would say that if I were to highlight one trait or something about myself, I would say I have five kids with the same wife. Congratulations. Great. But it's, you know, I'm a family man. I'm happy with being at home. But over the past 20 years, I have traveled quite a bit and it's been a blessing to collaborate and to cooperate with many different people from cultures all over the world. And doing so has been a rewarding journey and has caused me, you know, serious reflection on some of those issues that we are faced with today, even in the world arena. So yeah. You know, in 1992, I made a mental decision that I would someday be a PhD student and I never got around to it. And so five years ago, I said, you know, to my wife, if I don't do it now, I'll never do it. So please, would you let me? And she gave me permission. So here I am. So it's never too late. And the thesis, silence and violence in the boardroom, that sounds quite serious. What are you dealing with here? Are people getting involved in violence? Well, you know, I think what we're looking at here in this research project that I'm involved in is that the miniscule, the minimal and the very almost sometimes invisible behaviors that we execute and live out among our colleagues. And also in the boardroom, small things like looking at someone with an angry stare or maybe even cutting someone short, maybe, you know, slightly raising your voice or using your finger to point out that you better not disagree with me because then you are in trouble. Small things like that. And I think that the number of incidents, if it reaches a certain threshold, becomes violent and it's the way that people are perceiving you as being violent or even silent, which would be the opposite. If I were to define it real quickly and simply, violence is forcing your opinions on others and silence would be withholding your information for some reason. I think it's an interesting dynamic to observe the people in the boardroom when they either force people to have a particular viewpoint and also to observe them while they are not speaking their mind and withholding information. It's something that I think we can learn a lot from. And this is what impressed me when I read the book, because there are mechanisms which we should not take for given that we avoid. I mean, we should always be conscious about the smallest thing because the smallest thing can ruin a good relation and a good cooperation. Is it a kind of a battlefield or something you are talking about or mind games and psychological safety when it's not present or something like that? Certainly a very important area of this. And I think if I were to sum it up, the experience is that what's in your heart, what's in your mind, subconsciously comes out anyway. So if you don't speak your mind, you will speak your mind through your behavior. And so you better be aware of how you feel about the other people in the room, because either way it's coming out. That's interesting. Yeah. So to be aware of that, that's a good thing to know. So in this course, we're talking about cooperation and partnership. So this is important. So you have a big network professionally. And how have you built this network? And how long have you been aware that this is important to you? So I learned that you two met at LinkedIn, which is a kind of arena to network with each other digitally. But tell us a bit about that. How do you build network? Well, I think it was in 1999 when LinkedIn was not in existence yet. So I was working closely with a partner of mine in Oracle during the dot-com wave. We were selling databases and software like crazy. I don't think those times will ever return. But at some point, I was lucky to behold and to see the screen of my colleague. And what he had done in a spreadsheet, he had kept track of all his conversations the past two years. And what really struck me in a moment was, wow, he's tracked every conversation. And he's keeping a log of people that he's actually spoken with and knows. And he keeps data. And I was thinking, the power of focusing on one person at a time and to do so really well is quite powerful. And since then, I made up my mind. I would do the same. And I've done so. Since 1999, I've tracked conversations with everyone that I've been speaking with and asking myself, OK, how will I remember this person? And how will I make sure that I treasure this friendship that we've established? Maybe during even five minutes only. And it's turned out to be an interesting exercise, for sure. Interesting in what way? Well, I think, let me give you one example. A brief anecdote of a person that I spoke with in Israel many years ago. This was in 2003. He and I had a conversation. And my colleagues said to me, on the side, said, don't spend time on this guy. He's not worth it. He's not an influential type. He's just an IT consultant. Why would you spend time on him? But he did ask for some help. And I did provide the help that he needed. And because I feel that people have inherent value, regardless of who they are and what role they have. And we built a friendship, even though it was during just a few email interactions and conversation on the phone. Then one year later, I get an email. And it says, Vidar, I would like to speak with you. We are going to make a major decision with regards to the CRM system of our hospital. And he had become the IT director of a large hospital in Israel. And because he and I had a relationship, I was able to provide him with a major deal, a contract. And I think it was because he realized that I valued him as a person, not just as a person filling a role. So just kind of be genuine in your relationship with whoever you meet on your way. Because it could be a thing you can benefit from, or not benefit, that was kind of wrong word. But yeah, it could be a nice thing in the future to build on. But also the value of valuing people as important enough that everybody is as important as others. I read out from that story. I believe we can sense this in every conversation that we have. If a person is truly present, listening to what you have to say, not listening to respond, but listening because he or she is truly interested in you and your perspectives. I think that has a major impact over the long run. And it builds a relationship. Wow.
So then we are maybe touching on my next question here. Or the next question here, which is, what is the formula for collaborating with different people in various contexts or industries or whatever? I guess you are touching already on the core here. I think it's a very important question because sooner or later, you will find yourself in a conversation with someone who has a different perspective than you, or you will find yourself in the conversation with people in a different industry. You may not necessarily have the same frame of mind or see the world the same way, but it is possible to collaborate and to cooperate with people across boundaries, across departments, across cultures, and also across industries. So what are some important aspects and ways to do this? I think I could respond in two ways. First, in a general way, and secondly, in a specific way. I think generally speaking, asking questions is a passion of mine. And so if I can ask questions and just listen, I know that number one, I'm learning, and number two, I'm influencing that person. Ironically speaking, the person who speaks the least influences the most. I think there's statistics showing this. And so I love asking the questions because then, and I guess this is a little bit of the manipulative side of me. I will sometimes sit down for lunch with my colleagues and I will just ask one question to make sure that I steer the conversation and the topic in a particular direction, which I would like to speak about. And then the entire lunch will be about that topic. And if somebody dares going outside of the topic, I will speak, I will just ask another question and we're right back on topic. So it's an interesting exercise. And I think you'll discover that the power of questions is enormous. So asking questions, that would be my generic response. More of a specific response, I think when it comes to industries and going across industries, even paradigms within research, I think it's useful to be curious. Of course, questions goes a long way, but to actually be curious and to be teachable and humble makes a huge difference. And especially when you're talking about going across boundaries or industries. So that would be my short response, I guess. The politicians of Bergen should learn something here. They can never decide. No, we're not talking about bybanen. But I think also you're touching into, I don't know what the English phrase is, but the hersketeknikk, a way of, what is it in English? Do you know, Vidar, the English word for hersketeknikk? I remember from of the top of my head, “manipulation” would be the close call, I guess. If you want to stay out of the conversation and you would be asking questions, it's a kind of, well, it's nice to know about the technique. But this is both tactical, but it's also genuine to be interested in other people, isn't it? It is. And I think it's important for us to see that when we spend our time listening to people, it's the greatest investment we can give to them. And it's a great gift. You know, Dale Carnegie was very big on this. The biggest thing you can give people is your attention, your time. And I'm a great believer of that. And also, I would add that we found from research, and I was working with the colleagues in the US for many years, where we discovered that good skills, even the best of skills, can be used in a manipulative way. So we need to be aware that if your heart is in the right place, skills will come out in a good way. If your heart is in the wrong place, good skills will become corrupt. Corrupt behavior. Not easy and complicated at the same time. I mean, you have to have the right motive in your heart in order to behave good, I guess you're saying. That is very rich. There's a lot of wisdom in knowing about that basic principle. I'm learning things both about myself and about others, right as we speak. Very interesting. So where are we now? We have touched upon it already, don't we? But the most important values for teamwork and collaboration, particularly in the PhD journey. Are there more things to say about that? Sure. I mean, we could spend our entire time talking about this only, I believe. But maybe I can highlight two attributes or characteristics that I think might be especially useful. One is when you find yourself in a group, and you will frequently find yourself in the group as a PhD student, right? Quite often in small groups, because being in a PhD setting, you will be talking to other professors or students about niche topics that not too many people are involved in. And so let's say there's four or five people in the room. One of the key skills, I think, that makes a great conversationalist is someone who, whenever he or she starts to say something, begins to explain something that he or she might have as an opinion or a thought, is to begin by recapping what the other person has said, restating what maybe even the opponent has expressed. And this basic skill is a way to communicate several things. First of all, I've heard what you said. I appreciate and I respect your opinion. And number two is, did I understand that correctly? Just giving the other opportunity an opportunity to correct potential misunderstandings, which we do find is quite frequent. Sometimes we believe we understand people more than we actually do. And when we restate what they've been saying, it gives them an opportunity to say, well, that's not quite what I was meant to say. This is more like it. And then do another restate before you express your own opinion. I think it's a wonderful skill. So that's the first one that I would mention. In a PhD setting, quite frequently, people are passionate about what they share. And you might not share their passion. I've encountered this many times. I've been in a room with people and looking at the other people on the screen. Often you'll find yourself in a digital setting, right? And when people are presenting something, and then when the presentation is over, inevitably someone will say, does anyone have any questions? And I think it's such a lost opportunity if people don't follow up with questions. I think any PhD student should ask him or herself, what questions might I ask to add value to this conversation? And if we don't take the opportunity to engage in the conversation, I think it's rude. I think it's quite elementary actually to participate and to add value. And if you don't have any questions, of course, you can always fall back on some really basic questions like, so how would you express your research in one sentence? I mean, that's a great way to help everybody get back on the same page. You could ask, what's the research gap that you're trying to fill? I mean, those are some basic questions that any PhD student can ask. And if you don't have any questions, fall back on the basics. Would be my input. So yeah. Can you share some experiences when you found it difficult to collaborate with others and how you did overcome it? That's an excellent question. And I wouldn't be able to count the number of times where I found myself in a challenging situation, trying to collaborate or to reach a goal with other people. I think if you're involved in something worthwhile and you believe in it, you will find yourself in the conflict. If you don't find yourself in conflict with other people, it's either because you don't care or because what you're doing doesn't really matter. So if you find yourself in conflict, that in itself is a good sign, I think. And so let me give you an example. So I was in a small group of people trying to implement a project that was quite demanding. And one of the participants in this project did not engage the way that I would like him or her to do. And I admit I got quite frustrated. In fact, I caught myself thinking about this while I'm driving the car, while I'm eating my dinner, when I'm going to bed at night and sleeping, trying to sleep, you know. And I remember so well, one time I was, again, I was, you know, mulling this thing over. And at some point I caught myself in this bad thinking, this negative thinking, right? And I realized I am pretty sure that this person realizes that I am frustrated. I'm sending all these negative signals. So what am I to do about this? And I'm thinking if I cannot resolve this on my own and change my attitude towards this person, I'm going to have to have a conversation. So I called this person and I said to, this actually was a lady, I said to her, you know, I noticed that the past three commitments that you made, you didn't keep. I'm lost for words. I would like to know why. I may be mistaken. Maybe there's something that I don't realize about this, but please feel free to explain. And then I paused. I'll never forget the moment where she came back to me and said, I'm sorry, but my father passed away last week. I've been tremendously stressed over many things and it's been very difficult for me. I apologize. I would have liked to keep my commitments, but I haven't. And one of the discoveries for me was I'm so happy that I moved into this conversation with respect, that I didn't start my conversation with blaming and shaming and pointing out all her mistakes, but I was curious and I asked for her reasons. And one of the things that I've learned from this experience was that most of the time people have good reasons. They want to participate. They want to add value, but sometimes either they're unable or there are good reasons why they are, why they don't. And rather than being angry or miserable, let's be curious. Let's ask them and engage in the conversation without passing judgment before you know what's up. Yeah. Again, with the question, it's better to question too many than too little, because then you want to examine the reason why things have become as they are. Yeah, that's a good tip. Exploring before you sort of shoot or before you criticize or make up your, or decide what to think about it. Exploring first.
So we have a question here about younger generations of students refer to triggers and glimmers. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but triggers being things or actions that bring about negative reactions and glimmers being the opportunities and inspiration that bring out your self-confidence and good feelings. What would you say are your triggers? That means bring out negative reactions. And what are your glimmers in working with others in co-creation?
Yeah, that's maybe a difficult question, but still interesting. It's one that I could respond in many different ways, but I think a story is worth more than a thousand words, right? So just like a picture, if you tell a story of, let's say, 60 words, you communicate a lot more than you'd be able to do in a long time. So maybe I could share an experience. I can either do this from my perspective or from the perspective of another, and maybe I could share with you one of my failures. So I was a leader and one of the middle managers that I was trying to help improve wasn't doing too well. And I decided to critique him while other people were present. I would count that as a trigger. Would you agree? Absolutely. In fact, you know, I was never able to repair that mistake afterwards. I said, sorry, I didn't repeat the mistake, but for some reason the battle was lost. I mean, he lost his passion, his glimmer, his enthusiasm for the role was gone. And I think we should be mindful of this. Always, always, always critique people one-on-one and compliment them in public. That could be a learning point from this experience. Absolutely. Do you have any glimmers? Well, the glimmers, you should read Dale Carnegie. He knows everything about glimmers, right? One of the learning points that I brought with me is to compliment someone. That would be the opposite of critiquing. If I were to add some other tactical skills and ways in which we can build other people, I think one way is to share insights when they are malleable. So what do I mean by that? Don't teach other people when they don't want you to teach them. But when they're asking for advice, ask questions. Give them advice in the form of questions. And that really can trigger passion. It's a true glimmer, I think. Instead of telling people, okay, you need my advice, let me give it to you. Do it in a curious way and facilitate the answers through them. Because to educate means to draw forth, right? And if we're true pedagogical gurus, I think one of the things that we'll do as PhD students or even as professors is to help people realize that they themselves have the answers. It's drawing forth, drawing out, if you will, the skills, the knowledge, and the insights that they themselves have. And that is the insights that will last the longest. I mean, people remember what they said themselves. They don't remember what you said, but they will certainly remember what they said themselves. So I think that's a pearl when it comes to glimmer. I absolutely agree. And that is something also I learned when I was a study supervisor earlier. I was kind of how to help people, students to get through with their studies and making new plans is ask questions. Because often the answer is within ourselves. We just need the right answers to get the words out. So it's kind of, I absolutely agree. It's very good, good glimmer, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.
Now we have a question here about sustainable co-creation. What do you think of the concept of sustainable co-creation? I'm not sure if that question, now we have been talking about questions. I'm not sure if this question gives a meaning or if you understand the question.
So co-creation has surfaced as almost like a new word these past years. But co-creation is of course nothing new. It's just a new word that simply restates many of the research findings and the experiences of the past. Let me give you one example. So Stephen Covey in his book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People coming out early 1990s spoke about seek first to understand, then to be understood. And one of the things that he emphasized with this was that the key to synergize or to synergy, to create synergy in a group is to first listen and truly understand and then to be understood. Don't sacrifice yourself. You also are entitled to voice your opinion and to explain and to share your insights. But true co-creation happens when people respectfully listen and contribute and doing both, not just one of them. And I see in most of the time, if you're in a group of five people or more, statistically two of them will carry 65% of the conversation. That is a true loss. That is not co-creation. So we can talk about co-creation from different aspects. And even in different sizes of groups, you can talk about co-creation with only two people, three people, or even groups of 10 or 20 people. But I think the dynamics are the same. If you do not participate, you are not really co-creating. So making sure that you trigger what's between people's heads, the value that's found between people, one plus one equals three or more, I think is the ultimate goal of co-creation, so to speak. You are conscious about these things. You have reflected on them and you have many experiences.
How does elements as time, space, place, and those things, maybe the more practical things, come into the picture here? We can see these aspects from different angles. If I were to highlight one, I would adjust time to be timing. Does that make sense? Timing, yeah. There is a time and place for everything. Looking at the boardroom, which has been my fascination these past four years, there is a timing and there is a rhetorical moment, if you will, when there is a right time to speak about something and then there is a time when you don't. Knowing your timing is fairly important. Has that a lot to do with experience or does other qualities come into the picture? Sometimes you will find that the rhetorical moment has passed. There is a moment when you can truly influence something. There are always board members who misunderstand their timing and they will try to influence something when it is too late. That is not good or optimal co-creation. Knowing your time and place when to discuss something would be an example of the dimension of time in co-creation. There is much to be said about this, but I guess that is an example.
What about the place and the framing of a meeting, for instance? How much does it mean whether you are in a neutral place or the surroundings? I can maybe share with you one example. I was having lunch with Stein Erik Hagen, Rimi-Hagen. Most Norwegians will know who he is. He is the main owner of Orkla. He was sharing with me some of his personal experiences with the board. One of the things that he experienced was that there was a topic that was especially difficult to discuss. He decided to bring the board outdoors. He said, let us go for a walk. They went outdoors. One of the people that had a little bit of trouble sharing their thoughts and insights, once he or she came outdoors, it loosened up. It was easier to talk about those hot topics or difficult issues that they were meant to discuss. I think that was a great insight because sometimes the place does matter and it does affect the co-creation. We are getting near to the end. Would you mind to try to sum up your most important points about cooperation or co-creation that we have been discussing? If there is something we should ask you that we have not, feel free to do the addition. I think there is always much fun to share in the conclusion. If I were to try and sum up some of the things that we talked about, maybe a research finding many years ago would be worthwhile. I think research goes a long way, especially if you combine it with an anecdote or a story. It makes a big difference. Here is an example of what I think we have been talking about today. A research subject was asked to tap the rhythm of Happy Birthday to You. Like this. Happy birthday to you. But without the song, only tapping the rhythm. Then the question was, if you do that, how many people will recognize which song you are tapping the sound to? The expected percentage was around 70%. People suspected that they would easily get the idea. Then they did the research. They actually tapped the song Happy Birthday to You without the melody. Only 15% of the people actually recognized the rhythm and the song. The question is, why? What does this teach us? The key points that was brought forward with this research, and I will never forget, was when we tap the song, when we tap the rhythm, in our head we will sing the song. We believe that the other person hears the same song, but they don't. They only hear the tapping. I think with many of the things that we communicate on a daily basis, it is the same. We tend to communicate with our thinking and our words, but the other person only hears the words. That's a major difference. We tend to misunderstand each other much more than we actually understand each other. What about that? I think maybe that's why you have five kids with the same wife. Well, I don't know. That's a great way to end. Fantastic. Yeah, but I think it's very smart to hear you say that, because I think it's actually true. We are communicating with our body and faces and also what you have in our heads, but people often maybe only hear the words. If your body language is saying something else than the words, you are very confusing to others. If you're not aware of it, it's a challenge. It was great to have you here as a guest. It was our honor to speak to you and to hear your reflections from your experiences and your research. Thank you for having me. It was great. Thank you. Thank you very much.
You have now heard a podcast from Høgskulen på Vestlandet. You can listen to more podcasts from us by visiting the website hvl.no.