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“Know Your Children with Rav Shlomo Katz” is a series about the everyday holy work of raising children with heart, patience, and honesty. Join Rav Shlomo in learning from the sefer Da Et Yeladecha by Rav Itamar Shwartz, author of Bilvavi Mishkan Evneh, and explore how Torah and Chazal guide us in building a healthy, loving connection between parent and child.
This isn’t about perfect techniques or quick fixes. It’s about creating a foundation of truth, learning to really listen, and finding the right “funnel” so that what we want to give actually reaches our children. Each shiur is meant to be practical, gentle, and encouraging, and something you can take home and live with.
Okay good morning everyone thank you so much for coming Shavua tov u'mevorach. We're learning the month of Tevet. What's that? Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
In the month of Tevet we're learning לעילוי נשמת לוי בן יוסף ולעילוי נשמת בסיה פייגא בת ישראל. Today we have a fascinating shiur. Today's topic as I sent it out deals with the concept of as you see in the title that's in front of you in the middle of the page אהבת ההורים לילדים בדרך כלל אינה מושלמת. And this is supposed to make us feel good.
What this means is that generally speaking the love that parents have for children is not complete or it's not perfect or it's not like we really ideally want it to be you could fill in you could translate that word mushlemet better after the shiur you and hopefully everyone will have their own perush for it. What we spoke about until now was two different levels of parenting which was one is the love when a baby's born you just naturally love the child because that's what Hashem planted in our Baruch Hashem in our human condition is this inyan of ahavah that gets expressed right when a baby's born. Like what is it that the baby does that makes you feel that love the moment they're born? What does the child do other than be? There's no chinuch that takes place a mother or a father that starts telling the baby shh shh when it's born and starts crying meshuganas right? and hopefully I don't know anybody that does that but there's this natural embedded love that takes place at the moment and really even before that as well even before the moment baby's born but once when baby's born comes out so strong. Then we have the whole world of chinuch which we spoke about for the last two weeks chinuch education this chiyuv this obligation that we have upon ourselves and we discussed how without love being number one chinuch has no chance of being number two.
Without love being that which is always at the forefront even when in times where there has to be discipline and rules and gederot and borders if there's no love we likened it to that hole in the mashpach a hole in the funnel where all that you want to give over to the kid gets lost it slips through a hole it slips through a crack it doesn't get there זה לא הולך לשום מקום it doesn't get anywhere. So these things these were the first basic like this is how we've been discussing last few weeks of ahavah and then chinuch and the need for it to be in that order and without that order זה פשוט לא ילך. Yes Mindy. I'm sorry this is gonna everything I say sounds weird at the beginning I know when a baby cries and we pick it up we try to discern is this a cry of a diaper or a cry of hunger type of thing we're also teaching the baby that they can trust us.
Beautiful beautiful and definitely it's something important vital is going on but if it's not stemming from first of all that wasn't weird at all what you just said. Not for you. Not for you at all that is not weird may this be the setting of this week may it be a weird week like the way that you just said a very not weird what's that? Mamash mamash. I'm up for a really weird week like this b'ezrat Hashem.
For sure it still doesn't negate what he was giving over in terms of how you like the natural parenting that comes out the moment the baby's born. Everyone wants to be the perfect parent everyone wants to be like the dreams that we had when we were teenagers even little kids about oh I'm gonna be that type of abba that type of ima everyone wants that. Obviously the question comes up and when we realize wait a second I'm not that. I'm not what? I'm not the visions I had of a child before they actually had to be a parent.
It's just like a person could be totally like infatuated with an imagery of what it would have been like to be with that man or that woman right before you ever had to have an actual relationship with them when there's no obligations and there's no demands and there's no things that are like pulling pulling pieces out of us but in our minds it's like oh man with With them it would, you know, it would be, I'm sure none of this would come up. Ma pitom? How do you know any of this, how do we know any of this until you're in the relationship? There's no way to know. Not that people are so different when you're in a relationship with them, it's just that a lot of other sides come to the surface. It's like this all the time in every relationship.
A lot of people say, if only I was that person's student. I've heard that, you know, if only I learned by that person. You don't know what the full picture would be like when you're learning under that person, what it would be like, how you'd feel, certain sides you'd see from the teacher when you'd spend more than just 3-minute YouTube intimate moments with the person. You don't know, right? Now, Chanan has a great song about this.
Which one was it? Aluf Ha'olam. What's that song, if you spend time with the words, that song talks about how he didn't live, he didn't basically, I'm sure there's Pardes, it's like Pshat, Remez, Drash, Sod with him because he's so out there. But in that song, the discussion is very much when he speaks about the whole text of that song is talking about yeah, I'm Aluf Ha'olam in what? In realizing that I didn't end up being bichlal that person that I thought I would be as a father and as a husband, obviously, right? And then ובכל זאת אני אלוף העולם בליפול ולקום כמו גדול, so when it comes to parenting, this stuff could mamash mess with us. Mamash mess with us because any aspiring person, you know, can get caught with wow, I cannot believe that this is the parent that I am and I can't believe I'm not feeling this.
I can't believe I'm not feeling this. It's hard to feel this when you're completely sleep-deprived and have so many chores and responsibilities, and also you become not the center anymore. There's like a whole 'nother world, then there's another whole 'nother world, b'ezrat Hashem, then there's another whole 'nother world, then there's a whole 'nother world, then you start saying oh but that and now that kid's not getting what that kid deserves. The whole picture of what would seem to be tmuna mushlemet fades away pretty quickly.
And I would say Baruch Hashem. And the earlier that that fades away, the better it is, just you have to have the tools to understand how to deal with it, or we could start by giving over to our children the way that they see parenting at home, to give them the tools to start dreaming differently when they're younger. Not to make them give up on love, chas v'shalom, God forbid, but to make them dream about real amestik, pnimistik love, which is nothing like, well not nothing, but is very different than either two things: one, just natural dreams that we have when we're younger, and two, Hollywood, which is everywhere, nachon, nachon. Okay, so we need a lot of patience for today's shiur.
It's going to tug on some, not that the others haven't tugged on some sensitive chords, especially last week, but it'll tug on some sensitive chords. Have some patience for yourself with this, everyone needs like mamash self-compassion with a ratzon to grow, and then you can basically do anything. So you have Daf Chaf-Bet in front of you. Rav Schwartz begins like this: עתה נבאר בסיעתא דשמיא את הסיבות המצויות לאי שילוב האהבה בחינוך.
We're going to find some reasons where love doesn't pop up in the chinuch that we want it to be in.
ובעומק יותר נעסוק בסיבות הגורמות לחוסר גילוי האהבה בין ההורים לילדים. We'll also deal with reasons that which cause a lack of a revelation of love between parents and children.
על מנת לבאר את הדברים בהרחבה.
We're going to go deep into this.
נתבונן תחילה בשני דברים הנוגעים לאהבה של ההורים לילדים. We're going to look at two different things, speaks about love from parents to children.
תחילה נשאל את עצמנו, what we just said in the beginning, we're going to ask ourselves a very obvious question: האם יש הורה שאינו אוהב את ילדו? Is there a parent that doesn't love their children? Ha'teshuva ha'brura hi.
The clear answer is הקדוש ברוך הוא טבע בנפש כל אדם את האהבה שלו לילדיו.
ואם כן לא קיימת תופעה שהורה אינו אוהב את בניו את ילדיו.
הקדוש ברוך הוא טבע. Over here teva means embedded.
So the Ribono Shel Olam embedded in the soul of every person. So I was trying to figure out if this means Hashem's love for his children or a person's innate love for his children and then I realized there's no difference between the two. Therefore, and I just want you to remember that, that love, that natural love that's embedded in you, in me bezrat Hashem, that I believe with all my heart and soul is that nekuda of love that Hashem has, it's a taste, it's a tiny bit of love that Hakadosh Baruch Hu has for his children which is the most powerful thing in the world. Share with you another thing just because I mentioned his name.
Two years ago there's a very, very special man I had the privilege of meeting him a few times. It was his Yahrtzeit last week. Two years ago his name was Itamar Perlman. Itamar Perlman lived in Pardes Hanna.
If any of you have hung out in Pardes Hanna, there's the whole chevre there, the Chamama chevre, that daven together. It's a very, very special and unique place and I was there a few times and I spent a little bit of time with him. And he passed away and he wasn't a, he didn't have a chatzer, he was, he could have been a huge Rebbe, but he wasn't, he was like mamash like a guru, a holy, holy, holy guru, holy guru. I remember the last time I saw him he said to me, he found out that I had something to do with these sefarim of Even Shlomo, so he said to me, I should be kissing your toes right now.
Like and this is a, he was a much older man and he wasn't trying to be cute, he really wanted to express something. He was very real, very raw, he wasn't, wasn't like, didn't try to hide, mamash, what you saw is what was there. So he was very, very close to Chanan, Chanan was very, very close to him. So he told me once that for half an hour I think they looked into each other's eyes and didn't say a word and after that half an hour this Itamar said to him, whatever love you're feeling right now that's coming from me is the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest percentage of what in truth the love that Hashem has for you.
And he said that that targil was like life changing for him. So because we have a lot of hardships in life and difficulties, we're not sure that Hashem loves us all the time. We're really not. As much as we say we believe it, but we're not so sure.
We look at our bag, we look at our pekelach and we're not so sure Hashem loves us all the time. It's okay. It's part of the, it's part of the game. It's part of the whole game we're in.
It's fine. I mean it's not fine, no one should feel like that but I'm saying it's going to happen. It happens. So I think that we have to first understand there is something natural that's embedded in us that we have love displayed for our children and it's regardless of how good or a bad of a person we were up until the moment we first had a child.
That is embedded in the nefesh of a person. But now another question.
עתה נתבונן בשאלה נוספת האם יש הורה שהאהבה שלו לילדיו הינה מוחלטת? Is there a parent whose love for their child is muchletet? You know what that means? Absolute. What would be a better word over here? Unconditional is what we use, I think.
Yeah but that's, that's not, that's not so much it. Muchletet, I think absolute, yeah, yeah but I think absolute would be the closest, but it means more than that. That's why sometimes the translations are only a little bit, a little bit limiting but for now let's go with that word okay? Untouchable. Could be, could be, yachol lihiyot, yachol lihiyot.
So is there, is there a parent that their love for their child is muchlat? Just absolute. Let's check it.
נוכל לבדוק זאת בצורה מאוד פשוטה כל הורה לילדים נתקל מדי פעם במקרים בהם הצורך של ילדיו מתנגש עם הצורך האישי שלו. It happens sometimes that your needs and your child's needs mitnagshim.
You know what that means right? They contrad- well yeah they, mitnagesh literally means you crash right? mitnagshim echad basheni. I have a shiur to go to, I have a meeting to go to, I have a job to do, I have whatever it is I need to do and my child decided today to not feel good. Or you fill in the blank. Today my child decided to break their arm in school chas veshalom.
Anyone been there before? Today they have, right? Today it happened, right? But I had the whole, I had my whole seder yom and vechulei. I had my seder. So he says over here: וכאן ההורה צריך לשאול את עצמו איזה צורך גובר האם צורכי הילד או צרכיו האישיים. A parent has to ask, well what, whose needs are stronger? Whose needs come first? Mine or my child's? So you're thinking, what's the question, right? Or no, you're not thinking that? Sorry? You don't even have to ask? Mah sheilah! What do you mean? So it's great, I had a whole thing planned for myself.
It lo holeich. It doesn't happen.
התשובה הברורה לכך היא פעמים שהורה מעדיף את הצורך של הילד ולעתים יעדיף ההורה את הצורך העצמי שלו. He says, if you're being honest with yourself, sometimes the parent will, will obviously prefer, meaning na'adif, bless you, they will look at the need of the child and say that comes first, and sometimes a parent will say, no, what my needs come first.
Okay, so, so just check this out. What does it mean that my needs come first? That my child's sick but I need to have coffee with my friend? That, that's an extreme example. What's a much more mundane example or something that you could probably connect to more with this? What's that? Work. Even more, even more than work, also.
Go to the bathroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! Keilu, devarim me'od, no, no, I'm glad you said it, like devarim me'od besisiyim. We're not trying to go too deep over here, just basic needs, right? You'll wait. I have to do this now.
Ein mah la'asot. You'll wait. Another example would be, let's say, my child's need is for them to right now receive unconditional love like never before. My need is for them to mamash shut up.
Okay, so whose need, you understand on a need level, right? So what do I need? I, I need them to be, I just need them to be quiet, I need that, to be quiet right now. They need right now a different type of chinuch. Not hefker, but a different type of chinuch. So we said before, what's even the question? Of course my child's needs always come before mine.
Sometimes that's not exactly how it works. The need, what they really need right now is not for me to tell them to shut up or, I mean, not, not with that language, but it's not for me to force quiet on them because that's what needs to be happening, happening right now. So there's a hitnakshut, there's tension, and this, and this does happen. It comes in many different ways, in, you know, shapes and forms, it does.
Look how he continues here: הורה שאינו מרגיש כי לפעמים הוא מעדיף את הצורך שלו על פני צורכי הילד הרי שבמילים פשוטות הוא אינו מודע לעצמו. That's so true. A parent that's not, doesn't feel that sometimes they prefer, they, they have their own wants and needs that override the child's need at that moment. He says simply you're not really aware of yourself.
You're not really conscious and in tune with what's really happening, what's really going on. This doesn't mean you don't have the aspiration to be that perfect parent that's always there knowing exactly what to say at every given moment. That ratzon could still be there, but it's not necessarily the way that it pans out.
הדוגמאות בזה הן רבות.
Now he gives an interesting example that based on your facial expressions or laughter, I'll see if this relates to you because no one would want to admit the following.
הדוגמאות בזה הן רבות לפעמים קורה שיש ממתק אחד בלבד בבית. Whatever it is, the chocolate stash, the lollipop, whatever it is that one thing you saved from Shabbos that you were waiting to take with you to work or school or shiur Sunday morning, and then you come to the fridge Sunday morning and you can't find it. As your kids get older, this happens.
Then you know. I know Aliza, it doesn't seem like that's even be'geder efshar right now where your kids are at. Eventually they do get taller and open fridges and I don't know maybe you're there already but oh she's there already, okay. So, right.
So these, these things happen, okay?
האם בכל פעם שהילד צריך דבר מסוים ההורים אינם מתנצלים ונותנים לו כל מה שהוא צריך? Is it that every time, every single time a kid needs, thinks they need something, the parents give them everything they want? Ma pitom.
כל הורה שיהיה כן עם עצמו. Any parent that's willing to be honest, יבחין שלא תמיד הוא מספק את צרכיו של הילד במאה אחוז. You'll notice you don't always satisfy your children's needs 100%.
Sometimes it's just because of laziness.
ופעמים עקב העדפה של הנאותיו על פני צרכי הילד. And sometimes it's because of your enjoyment over what the child needs. Now, Laurie, you gave an example that's something that's very besisi in terms of a need, but even more than that, parents quite often do feel the need to have alone time, to go out.
That's a very healthy need and we always tell our children this is for your benefit that mommy and daddy go away for a while or whatever it is, because it's for you, it's good for you. And the truth is that quite often that could very well be true, but at that moment, that's not what the kid feels. The kid's need is, don't go, don't go out, I don't want you to go out. But you choose and for whatever the reason is and it could even be a right reason, nachon? This is not, we're not, it's not a blame game this shiur.
It's just calling things out as to what they are. The kid says, no, I don't want you to go out now, I need you to stay here, and you're saying, no, no, no, you really do want me to go out because I'm going to be such a happier abba when I come home or whatever it is. But these things we're pointing out is that it's not so simple that even though I love my child and when they're helpless at the age of four months old, everything they need I give them, right? I mean, think about sleep training if some of you can remember that. Sleep training is a great example.
Sleep training, okay, so I know in the back of my mind the bigger picture is this kid needs to learn how to sleep, that's their need even though they can't understand it right now. What does the kid need at that moment when they woke up for the fourth time and it's only 1:15 a.m.? They need you to come in there right now and you have to work really hard on yourself if you're in the parsha of what's going on over there, as you could obviously see where I'm still holding tonight. So it's not so simple that every time my child needs something, I'm, that's my, hey, Hashem embedded His true love into me that I have for the kid and azehu, I must be that it's in me, I may as well display it.
זה לא כל כך פשוט.
It's not so simple. Ha-im yesh hore? Second paragraph.
האם יש הורה שיכול להעיד בפה מלא? Is there any parents that could testify to what?
שכאשר היה צורך לכך? That when there was a need, הוא ישב עם ילדו והשקיע בו את מרב הסבלנות הנצרכת בו? That when the child needed something and they needed extra attention or whatever it is, they invested the utmost patience that's needed for that kid? Sometimes yes and sometimes no.
האם ההורים תמיד מנתבים את התקציב של הבית על פי צרכי הילדים? Do parents always budget out what the house needs only based on what children need?
או שלעתים היצר שלהם לרכוש ארון בגד מכונית חדשים גובר עליהם? It's as if it's a yetzer.
It's not a yetzer, meaning it is a yetzer, but it's not saying something bad about you. Like sometimes could it be you need a new car, you need a new closet, you need new clothes, or you want new clothes even? It's not always that only what the child needs always comes first. That's what he's trying to point out over here. Even though in our minds and like I asked in the beginning of shiur, you would say, of course it always comes first.
What's the shaila? It's not, it is a shaila, it is a question because it happens all the time. We're just not aware of it that it happens and it's part of the shikul daat. And guess what? That's okay also. This is not the end of the world.
You have to be aware of these things. It's not the end of the world because in the pnimiyut of our pnimiyut, a child does definitely not want their parent to get totally lost in self-deprivation. That can't be the ratzon amiti of a child even though it sure looks like that sometimes. That's not what they really want.
Maybe a stage in life as if that looks like what they really want. Ze lo nachon. And today, the generation of children, baruch Hashem not so much here, but in certain societies where the world... You know what's so sad is that what I just said right now is not such a rare phenomenon.
The more that you look into what's going on into the world, that tone shows up more and more. It's crazy. It's mamash crazy. And let me ask you a sheila, is there any emes to what they, to that statement? Betach.
Yesh sham nitzotz. There's some kind of spark going on in there. There's something there, hard to, it's hard to hear such words. There's something going on in there.
Question is how do I interpret it? And how do I not lose my marbles when I'm navigating my system and trying to really do my best? How do I keep it together? How do I keep it together? He's giving another example. Oh, we kind of said this before but he's going to say it a little bit differently. Dugma nosefet. Ha-ima yeshena balaila.
It's interesting he says ha-ima. Yeah. He says whatever it's a joke, I usually you know this joke when when the baby's waking up in the middle of the night, right? Who should go up and get take care of the kid?
רבות מחשבות בלב איש ועצת השם היא תקום. I'm sorry.
I had to. I know. I know. Ha-ima, see he kind of set me up for this over here.
Dugma nosefet. Ha-ima yeshena balaila. The mother's sleeping at night ופתע בשתיים בלילה התינוק צורח. Out of nowhere the kid is screaming.
האם תמיד תקום אליו מיד? Will she always just get up for the kid immediately?
או שלא תקום עד שתשמע אותו צורח לכל הפחות שלוש פעמים? Or she's going to wait for three long episodes of screaming.
אכן אמהות רבות יענו. A lot of mothers would say שלעיתים התינוק נרגע ללא התערבות מצדה. That sometimes the baby, the child calms themselves down without any intervention.
או שהעדיפה לא לקום על מנת לחנכו שלא יבכה בכל לילה. This is what we what we refer to more as sleep training.
אכן כל התשובות נכונות. All the answers you may give may possibly be right.
אולם לפעמים הסיבה האמיתית היא שקשה מאוד להיפרד מהכרית בשעה כל כך לא שגרתית. This is, he's trying to bring this down to this world. This is what I really connect how I connect to this sefer. He'll go very deep but he'll also bring it down over here.
What may be the reason? What may be the reason that the mother and even the father, I should add in here, won't get up? Because it's hard. And hashem knows that. Hashem knows that.
האם אין הדבר נובע מעצלות? Does this not stem from laziness? Well, if you call waking up, of not wanting to leave your pillow at two in the morning laziness, then yes.
But yes, there's a, that is in there. Now he says over here, this is very important. I don't know why it's in brackets but this is very interesting.
בעניין זה צריך להדגיש דבר יסודי.
We gotta add something very fundamental here.
כשם שלילד יש צרכי גוף ונפש כך יש להורה. Remember we were saying before child has all these, these, these physical and soulful needs, right? A parent has that too. A parent also has needs, soul needs, body needs.
ברוב המקרים ההורה אינו מסוגל ואף אינו צריך להקריב את צרכי גופו ונפשו האמיתיים עבור ילדיו. Sometimes he says, well actually he says, most of the time a parent isn't able and maybe shouldn't even need to be demanded to lehakriv, to sacrifice their own body and soul, their true body and soul needs for their children. Lori, I'm going to get back to you, it's a great example. Ma inyan? Who wins if chas veshalom you start causing yourself to have some severe situations by saying I'm just I can't go to the bathroom.
I'm not going to, you know, why? Because they need me not to. So obviously, you know, they need you in the emes of emes they actually need you to and they need you to do a lot of different... What could be another example maybe not as urgent? Yes. What would be another example that's not as urgent? A phone call.
A certain type of phone call maybe. Right. If I know that if I don't eat lunch before the girls come home at two, but it's going to be four o'clock and I'm going to be hangry. Exactly, hangry.
In order to speak to your, in order to speak to your child that needs to talk to you about something very important, you have to get up at three in the morning. Because that's in America. What, what to wake up at three in the morning? You would have to in order to speak to your child because they need to talk to you about something. At what time? Right.
No, at what time? Oh, oh, when they live in America, I didn't hear that part. I was wondering. Right. And it's been like you're not well or you're sick or there could be a reason why or you just don't want to get up at three o'clock in the morning.
Right, but it could be, you know, it could be a reason of hardship for whatever reason. Okay, it could be an example. Okay, what else? Could be, yeah? I think we've been through seven or eight ultrasound visits, some X-rays in the last year, so it's hard to know like, can you wait till after school? Do I have to come to Beit Shemesh to pick you up? You know, you've broken your hand a few times, so you're used to it. And it really is like it's a big deal.
It feels better. These are real things. These are not. I think that what he's working hard on is painting a full picture of awareness to emes when we want to be those perfect, that image we spoke about in the beginning of shiur about that type of parent, you ask the nineteen-year-old that's about to go on dates, "So tell me something, could you imagine marrying someone that would maybe ask a child, 'Are you sure that it's broken again?'" and be like, "What kind of an animal? Are you crazy? What kind of a person would I, how would I ever? I can't even imagine thinking of being with a person like that." Then that becomes you.
But but that's because you weren't obligated, meaning that wasn't a real metzius in your life when you were dreaming about that ideal world, that ideal state of parenting. That wasn't really a, that wasn't a chasunah, that wasn't really there. It wasn't. Yeah.
So interesting how people are with their first child versus like their youngest child. It's like, "Oh, he's eating dirt." It's like, "Oh, yeah. Good for him. Good." Nakhon, we do, we talk about that a lot, nakhon.
Hopefully you just learn better over the years, nakhon, nakhon. Yitira mikach, more than that, there's a third line over here.
הורה שיוותר על צרכיו האישיים, a parent that's actually give up their their personal needs, עלול להתמוטט נפשית או גופנית. They may break down.
They may physically break down or they may mentally break down if they've completely given up what they certain basic essential needs that they have.
אולם מאידך כל הורה צריך להקריב את עצלנותו ותאוותיו למען ילדיו. So what needs, what actually does need to be sacrificed? Laziness and taivos. Laziness and taivos.
So what's the avodah? To differentiate, to distinguish between a need versus atzlanut and a taiva, and that's that's very hard. That's a birur. Yes. Yes.
In Ishbitz language, that's what's called a birur. To differentiate between a need and a taiva / yeitzer / atzlanut, that's very, very, very hard. That's real avodas hanefesh. This is real tikun hamiddos over here.
Lo pashut. Yeah. I think of this like the video on the airplane where it says, you know, you put your oxygen mask on yourself first before you put it on the kids. But for everybody, oxygen looks different.
That's true. That's what you what you say. Yeah, that it is, it's avodas hanefesh to know what somebody's, you know, taivos might be somebody else's like actual need. Nakhon, one hundred percent.
And I and I don't think there's, that's why there can't be a manual for it. For, you know, in in detail, detailing what is actual taiva, what's a need. But what do you think could be the avodah to distinguish between these two things? I mean, I have I have a lot of different ideas, but I mean, this is this is something that I would I would love. What do you think would be the avoda that's needed in order to distinguish between these two things? Because it seems to me that if that's done or if that's part of my real, if I call myself religious and I'm in a relationship with Hashem and I'm working on myself and that's the focus of my life, I see that I don't want just, I don't want to only have that distinction between needs and taiva with parenting, I want that in every area of my life.
And it will flow to every other area in your life if this becomes a very key thing in your relationship with your children. So what would be a way, what do you think? What would be a way to distinguish between the two? Timing. Timing. Yeah, like if it's something that cannot be done at a different time, so that's a good way to say, is it really needed now or maybe it could wait an hour or a day? Rebbetzin Amar, did you hear what she said? She said this is important because this relates to you.
This is very important she said timing, meaning can this wait for another moment? That's exactly it. No. Why? My type of kiruv was that I'd get a phone call in the morning and tell me twenty-five kids who are the Columbia student a cappella band are coming for dinner or some Satmar Chassid used to stop by our house and sleep on the way from Kiryas Joel to Mexico City. I have no idea why he comes.
Where were you again? Alabama. We have no idea why he comes either. But we'd get a phone call at like one in the morning and be like, hey, Rebbetzin, I'm coming tonight. And it's just like, okay, that's made for you.
No, but that's other people. I'm saying with your kid calls again and again and again and it happens, so then the question is, can you master this art of what you're saying? To know when something your gut tells you this could wait and it's not because of atslanut. That's very good, nachon. Also on you, not on your child.
Like if there's something that you're feeling that you need right now and it's something that theoretically can wait an hour, right, so then it puts it into perspective. What is more important? Right, well then the shaila is how do you give that over to your child? They see it anyhow. They see it anyhow. It's not so simple.
But it's not so simple. Something goes, listen, they see something. They see something. Giving that over to your child, that's like a whole, that's a massive lesson in life.
I mean, when I was a kid, the teachers would always say, I had a lot of good experiences, this is not to, but one of them was whenever we'd ask for something, there was one teacher that said, wolf or not wolf? Wolf or not wolf. Yeah, wolf or not wolf. A little bitter, huh? That's terrible. That's terrible, right? That's a very, yeah.
Wolf or not wolf. I had a friend that his mother did that to him too. I think but also just how to see it in a healthy way. A lot of the time I know at least I did, I saw my parents' mesira, but they're gonna ממש בא על חשבונה.
And I want to make sure that my kids do see sometimes Ima does need to sit down for a cup of coffee or else I will yell. I need to eat before I take you hachug because I haven't eaten yet today. v'tzerichim u'mamash be'mussar. Communication.
I like communication because you don't rely on the fact that they're just going to see it, there's also communication in their gates that it's a process that we go through. They realize that every day, they're kids, be'olam shelo, they're a whole world of their own. Yoni calls parents the background of their children's world. You're just figures in their movie.
Okay. Children interpret things differently than what might happen, like when my son was in first grade, he got banged into a wall, he needed stitches, I was in a shiur, his father was at work, and as far as he was concerned, he had to go through this operation by himself. So we explained it to him afterwards, but I'm sure to this day, I still feel bad about it, which is my problem, but I'm sure like, oh, she goes to shiurim, she doesn't care about me. Well then, yeah, what happens is that they relate traumas to, yeah, to like that's the whole picture.
Yeah, to the circumstances, nachon. Because you can't always be there to explain. Nachon. Because what we're talking about of age of the child.
Of course, it's not just age. It's not just age, it's every different type, every child's so different. That's why there's no manual here. Everything has to be dealt with, you know, there has to be a general picture of hashkafa, but in terms of the relation to each child.
But coming from the same set of values. The hashkafa could and that's very important the hashkafa the overall way I look at this whole inyan of parenting has got to have something substantially clear and concrete and from there when that bigger picture is clear and concrete then you say oh and from here this kid needs this like this this like this yeah Lisa. I think the timing is a lot in this based on what you said but also that and I think kids can learn to this and frame it at different stages like you can grasp it very young is that when they're freaking out about whatever I need this right away and obviously I can say because I'm so much wiser and whatever I'm like not right now or not at all ever no matter what but to say to the kid I know this matters now what'll matter in five minutes will it matter in a week in a year what you're fighting about what you're begging for what you're blah blah blah like. That's also very special yes.
If they can breathe for like ten seconds and then they can say okay I can wait I can wait five minutes or you're right I don't care about this licorice because I'm just going to want another one tomorrow anyway. Sometimes nachon if there's a child that's the way that they could hear it that could always work definitely not across the board there's some kids that just can't hear that and you could say it with the most adinut you could say it such gentleness and that's the inyan of al pi darko of the only way to know what you're you know this is very important I think that the only way to know what works for each kid is based on what the Gemara says אין אדם עומד על דברי תורה אלא אם כן נכשל בהן meaning a person doesn't stand on divrei Torah they're not holding they don't really know what to do until they fail that's Chazal said this but it doesn't mean continuously it means you failed you learn from there and you say that doesn't work for this kid and the only way that I could have gotten to the notion of what they need is by figuring out what they don't need and that's a very important mahalach in our as we grow as bezrat Hashem better educators and better lovers of expressionately loving this kid actually the too much for that kid being too mushy is not good that kid if you're not too mushy they think you hate them you have that too but my need is to be mushy ah so who so you're right but my need is to be mushy so who mi gover whose need should be stronger because my need to be mushy could be mamash a pikuach nefesh thing so to speak right these things come up all the time yeah. I think following up on that sometimes a way we can discern between what's a need and what's laziness or something else is like if we can take a moment to fast forward like what happens if I do this thing or if I like with the example he gives of sleeping like okay I turn over I get five more minutes of sleep but like then the kid screams for another five minutes and I have to get up anyway I think when we can have the presence to just look ahead a little bit that can help. Nachon.
To discern whether this is something I need or or something else going on here. Nachon I think you need at least like three solid hours of sleep before you could think like that it's a game it's a never-ending game when you're in it you think it doesn't end. What's that one solid shiur of a life that was a situation. So what he said over here we got into this you could think about this as well there's a lot a lot to say about this inyan of pointing out like discerning between a need and a taiva or atzlanut he says when that becomes the mahalach that I am with my children look at the last line in the brackets here בעומק יותר לאחר מכן עליו להקריב את עצמו למען כנסת ישראל כולה deeply after you go through this and the diyuk here is le'achar miken and many many spiritual leaders and great rabbis fell in the cracks with this one לאחר מכן עליו להקריב את עצמו למען כנסת ישראל כולה then they must sacrifice themselves for Knesset Yisrael for the bigger picture I don't know why I thought about him this morning during davening but I once read an article or saw an interview with a very very close family friend of ours Rabbi where he speaks about the aftermath of raising the children in a home that if those of you that remember Rabbi Avi in the 80s 70s 80s and by 90s I don't remember so much but even let's say 90s the activism was for the forefront of everything that was going on in the world.
He was at every rally, he was doing things mamash mamash Knesset Yisrael like real hakrava leman Am Yisrael all the constantly. But he also I don't know when exactly he became aware that it was on the cheshbon of the child feeling like he was makriv himself for his children. He speaks about this openly to I forget I think there was this amazing series called profiles of faith I don't know if you ever saw it online done by not a Rabbi great guy Solly Fogler you should check it out I think it's called profiles of faith they had a lot of really great teachers my Rosh Yeshiva Rav Binny's on there Rabbi Riskin's on there a lot of great people are on there and here he writes it out very clearly and I very much relate to this and constantly am in check with this that you could have a lot of really amazing things you want to do for Am Yisrael and they could be really holy really really holy and even in that world of doing big things for Am Yisrael you have to distinguish between what's a need what does the Am need now or what is it a bisl shtickl like a taiva to do because it's so big and cool and awesome and publicity it's gevald. The way to know how to do those things for the Knesset Yisrael can only come after that became something that you really are holding at home.
Okay next a little bit more you're good with a few more minutes?
האם יש הורה שיכול להעיד על עצמו שהוא לא הרים את קולו אפילו פעם אחת בבית? Ule'chilufin sorry that means I forget I'm gonna translate this is there a parent that could say about themselves they never ever raised their voice in the house?
האם ניתן לומר שבכל פעם שהרמת את קולך בבית המטרה היתה נטו לשם חינוך ולא ממידת כעס פנימית שפרצה החוצה? And can we also say that every single time that we ended up raising our voice at home the sole reason for it was only chinuch and not at all because of any anger that was raging.
אכן ברור הדבר שאין הכוונה חלילה שההורים תמיד מתעצלים ואינם דואגים לילדיהם אולם אין להכחיש שלעיתים קורה שנכשלים בכך. He wants us to be very real and aware and present with what is normally generally speaking naturally happening even if you went to every parenting shiur in your life and you wrote five sefarim on parenting these things can happen to you because you're a work in progress you're also trying to figure yourself out and that's constantly hopefully that's constantly evolving as well.
המקרים והדוגמאות בזה משתנים מאדם לאדם אולם הם קיימים בכל רובד החיים וכל אחד מההורים שיבדוק את עצמו ימצא שעם כל ההשקעה המרובה שלו בילדיו.
Any honest parent will do this gut check and will see with despite all the investment all the investing that I put into my children lamrot zot nonetheless yeshnam mikrim there are situations this is by most people you do find once in a while that fairytale mama it does happen once in a blue moon but generally speaking he says למרות זאת ישנם מקרים בהם הרצונות והמאווים שלו גוברים על צרכיהם that ma'avim over here comes from the word ivuy which means also a desire where what you want what you need overpowers what the child needs at that moment it happens it's not completely out there. One more paragraph nimtza shemitchad second נמצא שמחד לא קיים הורה שכלל אינו אוהב את ילדיו. There's no such thing as a parent that doesn't love their children even you know what's crazy is that even as we've seen like people that didn't even know they're the parents the father of someone they'll meet the child at the age of 35 or something and something gets triggered. There's something gets triggered, right? There's this love that gets triggered.
You can't explain it. It doesn't make any sense. Yeish sham masheu. Ume'idach, on the other hand, אין הורה שיוכל להעיד שהאהבה שלו לילדיו היא מושלמת ונקייה לחלוטין מנגיעות אישיות.
You can't, there's no parent that could say that the love they have for their children is complete and perfect and completely clean from any personal, I don't know how you would say nagi'ot ishiyot, personal motives? Not motives, but that doesn't have a shtickel like me in there, that it's nothing to do with me.
דבר זה הוא טבעי לחלוטין. This is natural. Why?
מכיוון שכך הקדוש ברוך הוא יצר את האדם.
This is how God created man.
ודבר מצוי הוא שלכל אדם יש נגיעות אישיות כלפי החברה. It's a very common thing that a person has these nagi'ot, we gotta find the word for this. Motive? Matters? Matters, yeah, probably close, yeah, like personal matters in society.
Sorry? Attachments? Yeah, some kind of negia means like for instance, it's like masso panim like if you're judging two people and you have an opinion with one. So I was going to say like someone asked me last night, what do you think about this situation that's happening? I said I can't, I can't comment on it, why? Nogia badavar. So you understand, I'm nogia badavar, which means I have some kind, I guess attachment could be connected to bias? Sorry? What did you say Eva? Like you have some kind of skin in it. I have some kind of skin in it, even if I'm not aware of it.
Yeah, yeah, I have a, I'm not like, and it's true like when it comes to dayanus it's got to be something completely, completely removed. Sorry? Bias? It could be, all these words are right. Nogia badavar. But he's saying over here Hashem created you like this that you're nogia badavar just by the fact that you exist and just by the fact that you're in a room right now.
Look, let's be brutally honest. I'm not nogia badavar by the way that I teach and what I choose to teach? Of course I am. But that's not a, that's not like necessarily a bad thing, it's just trying to find the way to connect to what's in front of me. But it's still a negia.
So he's saying over here parents can't ever say I have no nagi'ot badavar. Everything that's happening with me and my child is absolutely one million percent only about them. That's not the metzius either. Nagi'ot, Eva says personally involved.
Okay, okay, that works, that works.
ודבר מצוי הוא שלכל אדם יש נגיעות אישיות כלפי החברה נגיעות כלפי בן או בת הזוג ואף נגיעות כלפי ילדיו אכן ההעדפה האישית אינה שווה אצל כל אדם אולם ברובד מסוים היא קיימת אצל כל אחד במינון ובאופן שונה. Very much connected to what we said before about preferences and this child versus that child, that friend versus this friend. We all function differently.
What interests me most is what we're going to be learning next week, what's the avoda? Now that we've distinguished this, now that we've pointed this out, this very important piece of the puzzle. So it's great, I can walk out of the shiur and say I'm not the worst parent in the world. No one wants to, that's not the goal of this. Hopefully that's not the goal of any real shiur just to say I must not, I'm probably not the worst person in the world, I'm not the worst parent.
We actually want it to be, but I know that I have what I need to give being the best parent my greatest shot. Yeah, Marilyn. So it's also, I wanted to say this earlier, but it's a generational thing because in my generation self-care for moms translated more like selfish moms. So what's acceptable for the next generation was less acceptable for ours.
So it's even hard for me to see when it moves on. Yeah, so you're also in that point or what, how much can you do for your child and you feel very bad when you cannot give them everything they need. And one time ago I was in a shiur from Rebbetzin Heller and she said if you do your utmost, like not oh I just need to sit here, you know, but you really do your utmost and you really cannot be there for that child at that time, then you weren't supposed to and somebody else Hashem decided would be there for that child or they had to deal with. So it's kind of a personal thing.
But Nakon. But you think it's - this is what I understand. Some people would say it was much better back then. Do you think it's better now? Selfishness - meaning that it's defined the balance? I think - no, first of all, we have a wonderful generation in our - in where - in where I'm sitting, in my view.
So they're fine. I don't - I'm not sure what's going on with the rest of the world. I think that in our own reality what's happened with the next generation is positive. Yeah.
So - but - but it is a generational... 100%. Betach. So often my father would tell me - I mean, he - my father, my abba, the most - not in an angry way, he would just say - he would hear what I would say or - or friends would say, and he was so in his - in his neshama so old school European, and it'd always be like: אתה יודע מה היה קורה אם אני הייתי אומר את זה לאבא שלי? Right? You ever hear that line? Anyone ever hear that line? Do you know what would happen if I would say this to my father? Oh, you've said it yourself! It's true! Wait, so the kid would then - whatever.
This is going to - just take this, okay? Please, with - because we all do this, like - I probably have said it too. And then the kid would - then the kid might have one day the chutzpah or - or the ratzon to say... and would you... and the kid in you, are you - would you have experienced? What would that be for you? Right.
Right. Interesting stuff. B'ezrat Hashem we'll continue this.