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Rad Chat is a forward-thinking global knowledge hub where healthcare professionals can advance their knowledge and expertise in radiotherapy and oncology by utilising the award winning, first therapeutic radiographer led oncology podcast and social media channels.
We're empowering healthcare professionals worldwide by providing free, CPD-accredited radiotherapy and oncology education, by sharing real-world experience, expert insights, best practice and patient perspectives, we're helping healthcare professionals’ advance cancer care and improve patient outcomes.
Jo McNamara (00:00)
Hello everyone and welcome to Rad Chat, founded by me, Jo McNamara.
Naman Julka-Anderson (00:04)
And me, Naman Julka-Anderson. Rad Chat is a forward-thinking global knowledge hub where healthcare professionals can advance their expertise in therapeutic radiography and oncology. Unlike traditional academic resources, we blend real-world experience, expert insights, best practice, and patient perspectives.
Jo McNamara (00:21)
We make advanced knowledge engaging and accessible, supporting continuous learning and professional development without compromising patient care or your personal time by providing insights into both technical skills and career development, helping you to progress confidently in your field and shape your professional future.
Naman Julka-Anderson (00:38)
Just to let you know, our episodes may contain sensitive and difficult topics that you might find distressing or triggering. Please consider checking out another episode.
Jo McNamara (00:48)
So this is episode 199 which is part of our Living With and Beyond Cancer series where we're going to be hearing from our next guest Mandy Geyman. So she's going to be talking about her breast cancer during pregnancy experience and all about her Instagram channel. So Mandy, welcome to Rad Chat.
Mandy Geyman (01:08)
Hello, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk with you guys today.
Jo McNamara (01:13)
⁓
thank you so much for coming on and obviously time differences have permitted us to finally be in the same digital room at one time so thank you. So Mandy tell us a little bit about yourself and if you can because we do ask this of lots of our guests when they come on to talk about their experiences and they jump straight in to talking about I've had cancer and they go straight into that.
Mandy Geyman (01:23)
Thank you. ⁓
Jo McNamara (01:40)
But you are more than just a cancer diagnosis, so tell us a little bit about yourself.
Mandy Geyman (01:46)
Well, thanks for saying that. I do appreciate that as a survivor. Yes, obviously I have had cancer and had that during pregnancy, but I'm also a mom. I'm 37 and I'm married to my, we call it in the States, high school sweetheart. So we've been together quite a long time. We've been married about 12 years and have two daughters, one who is eight and the other is four. Both are
crazy and wild, but wonderful and bring lots of fun and unexpected chaos to our life in the best way. ⁓ And of course, we're also parents to a geriatric pug dog. ⁓ And he, think surprisingly has more medical issues than I have at this point, which is saying something, ⁓ but really just kinda, you know, living life, doing the ⁓ motherhood thing, lots of social events. Like my kids are more social than
me
so I feel like I live vicariously through them really most of the day. and obviously enjoying Instagram as kind of a creative outlet and I'm also a very proud millennial so I love everything to do with millennial nostalgia and all that that brings thrifting and that sort of thing so kind of boring but also I don't know fun.
Jo McNamara (03:14)
I don't think that's boring and I too am married to my what you would class as your childhood sweetheart so yeah ⁓ yeah met when I was 16 ⁓ it's been a long time now I'm old now so yeah it's ⁓ once you've been through life with someone that long it's too hard to find someone else isn't it
Mandy Geyman (03:20)
I love that.
Absolutely. You know, it's just, it's gonna be too much work. I said that to him when I got my cancer. I was like, you're stuck with me. I'm sorry we have to do this, but it's just too much work for you to find someone else at this point. No, but congratulations. I love that. I love that you guys have been together that long.
Jo McNamara (03:39)
Yeah.
So, thank you. So Mandy, you've kind of mentioned a few times, you know, the impact that cancer's had on you. Can you tell us if you don't mind a little bit about your cancer diagnosis and kind of what you had to go through to get diagnosed?
Mandy Geyman (04:08)
Absolutely. So I was 32 when I was diagnosed. And as I kind of alluded to, I was 17 weeks pregnant with our second daughter, the now four year old at the time when I was diagnosed. And it was a little bit of a journey to get that diagnosis. Being pregnant, I think a lot of the time the assumption is, oh, well, this is probably due to fluctuating hormones and all of those wonderful,
at crazy changes that our bodies go through during pregnancy. So I think because of that, it was a little bit of a delay in getting the official diagnosis, ⁓ probably from like start to finish of like when I noticed something was a little off to when I actually had, you know, the official piece of paper that said you have breast cancer. It was probably about a month. So, I mean, it wasn't terribly long, but it was also in the middle of COVID-19.
Pregnant and ⁓ you know just kind of a wild set of circumstances. I also, ⁓ the type of breast cancer I had was inflammatory breast cancer which is a little bit of a different beast or an animal when it comes to ⁓ the breast cancer world if you will. Typically it doesn't present as like you you always envision finding it as like a lump or something through a mammogram but inflammatory doesn't often present that.
And mine did not so I just happened to pop out of the shower one day and noticed that the skin on my right breast looked strange like it just looked rashy and a little bit scaly and so ⁓ that sort of sent me down the path of what is this and ⁓ that eventually of course led to the inflammatory breast cancer diagnosis, but obviously being pregnant and then the fact that inflammatory
not as common breast cancer, which I hate saying that, but it only makes up like one to five percent of all breast cancer diagnoses. So it was just kind of this weird, perfect storm of events ⁓ that resulted in this very odd statistic of being pregnant while also having cancer and not only having cancer, but having this rare form of breast cancer. So once I got diagnosed, it was really from
like a seven day period to when I found myself in the chemotherapy chair getting chemotherapy and I ended up doing all of my chemotherapy actually while I was pregnant. So it was a total of 13 rounds. So 13 different times going into the cancer center with my bald head and pregnant belly. Going through that old chestnut if you will and ⁓
Fast forward to four and a half-ish years later and that's kind how it all started.
Jo McNamara (07:06)
Wow, I can't even imagine what it must be like to get a cancer diagnosis while pregnant because pregnancy in itself, I found really stressful. Just that maternal instinct was...
rife as soon as I found out I was pregnant and our baby was born as a result of IVF so sometimes I wonder you know did that play a part in why I felt so protective but actually I think talking to other mums it's it's one of those common things you just immediately feel that bond with your your baby. How was it kind of getting that diagnosis and also kind of being pregnant and thinking
how is this gonna affect my unborn baby?
Mandy Geyman (07:55)
Yeah, great question. All of that, know, all the questions were just swirling. And actually, I'm pretty sure, you know, when they called me to say the biopsies come back, this is the result. ⁓ The first question out of my mouth was, you know, what about this baby? What are, you know, what are we doing? ⁓ And because, you know, my fear, of course, as a mother was that they were going to say, well, you have to choose, you know, you either can carry this pregnancy, have your baby and risk this developing even further or
Or you can go through treatment. And so, you know, that was really weighing on me, especially as we were waiting for those biopsy results of what's going to happen with this. I can't tell you the relief I felt, you know, when in the next breath, the person said, we're treating two people now like this, and that's what we're doing. you know, it's very relieving to know that that was even a possibility because I think most people, including cancer survivors, have no idea that that's even a possibility.
in treatment and you know we're finding more and more that it is possible to treat a variety of different cancers during pregnancy and so I think even though there were a lot of questions and unknowns and what's going to happen you know will this baby be okay is she gonna make it there was also a lot of
joy in the fact that the worst, I mean, obviously getting a cancer diagnosis when you're pregnant, it's pretty worst case scenario, but having added on to that worst case scenario of like, you're gonna have to make this really hard decision. Having that part of the worst case scenario taken away was like, okay, well, at least I don't have to do that. And maybe that was a self-preservation thought on my part, but it's like, well, this is bad, but.
Not that bad, know? So as scary as it was, I think it also provided a lot of motivation that I don't know. I can't say for sure that I would have had that same level of motivation ⁓ if I wasn't pregnant, to be perfectly honest with you. And I can't attest to that because I haven't experienced it, not being pregnant. But you know, was kind of just like this weird.
positive and negative thing at the same time. Yeah.
Jo McNamara (10:12)
What were people's views when you walked into the chemo ward as a pregnant woman? Because I would imagine, you know, the stereotype is that you can't have chemotherapy when you're pregnant and, you know, you sit in there with a baby bump, must have worried people. Did you get many kind of weird looks and questions?
Mandy Geyman (10:33)
You know, I think the blessing and the fact that it was COVID-19 was we were all very secluded at the time. You you kind of picture chemo centers. Sometimes you're in this like big room with a lot of different people getting treatment. And that wasn't happening as much because of COVID-19. So I sort of felt a little bit more protected when in the actual center. But of course there's still lots of different nurses and even volunteers
that were in the center and you know they come and they stop in and they see how you're doing which is all very kind but you know immediately everyone you can't not notice that you're pregnant so it was kind of like
And you're expecting, know, there was just kind of this odd dichotomy that you don't expect to see when you walk into anyone having chemotherapy treatment. I actually had, I've never told anybody this before, except my husband actually, but ⁓ when I was getting like my outpatient surgery to have my chemo port placed, you know, obviously you go into the surgery center and all that, and they had this, ⁓
kind of old retired guy, a doctor. He was an old OBGYN and he was now kind of working in the surgery center, ⁓ helping prep and all of that. And ⁓ he came in and he said, you know, I heard you were here and I heard your story and I just wanted to come in and say hello. And you know, I'm an OBGYN. And so it started as this very like comforting thing of like, wow, here's someone who understands. And, ⁓ you know, I'm sure kind of thought, well, this is wild, but at the same time,
Just giving me some reassurance because obviously you're not seeing a lot of pregnant people even coming in for a surgery of any kind and so the conversation quickly made a very weird and crazy turn. He's like, well, how are you feeling which is very again very kind but weirdly it turned into this conversation, I said, you know, I'm just so honestly just so relieved like I'm in shock, but I'm relieved because I'm able to do this while I'm pregnant and
I don't know what I thought was gonna happen. I think I thought his response was gonna be something along the lines of, well, I've seen pregnant patients go through this before, or I've actually never had a patient go through, just some kind of conversation. But instead, he used it as this very strange opportunity to start talking about pro-abortion and pro-life and the differences. And I thought, that's not really a conversation that I feel this moment.
his warranting, you know, maybe talk to me in a year or two and we can sit down for a coffee and have that conversation. But it was, I feel like that moment was very telling of kind of the climate of where we were, at least here in the United States at the time. I felt like we all hear crazy stories about pregnancy, not necessarily about cancer and pregnancy, but you know, we've all heard especially as moms, right? The horror stories, if you will. And I thought, how?
Amazing is it that we hear those stories so often and we kind of forget that human element behind the story like we forget there's a real person in a real situation taking place ⁓ with that person and ⁓ in that moment, I think was my first kind of eye-opening experience of like this is this is me and this is my pregnancy and my family but this conversation weirdly
is really bigger than just myself, you know? ⁓ And even like kind of taking that politics side out of it, people have very strong feelings when it comes to pregnancy in general, you know? And so ⁓ kind of having this added layer and then having a medical professional have that conversation with me, I thought, ⁓ man, like this is gonna be an interesting ride, you know? Like even having a medical professional start to kind of have those questions and thoughts
it was very eye-opening that this was kind of a phenomena and I realised I was going to have to navigate some waters that maybe weren't typically navigated, if that makes sense.
Naman Julka-Anderson (14:45)
Have you ever had to navigate any of those conversations before you've had cancer treatment?
Mandy Geyman (14:51)
No.
No, not at all. And, you know, of course, like you might have those conversations with people depending on what might or might not be going on in, you know, the realm of the news or politics or or whatnot. But for me personally, just as a human being and my personal life, I never had to have that conversation with someone before. ⁓ you know, it honestly it honestly kind of felt a little bit like my story, my situation.
Which was very real, you know, was suddenly becoming a political talking point. And, you know, I know inevitably politics and medicine, they kind of have to flow together at times. And, you know, I'm not immune to that. And I certainly understand that. But it definitely in that moment made me feel not...
not real or like, okay, wow, like this person is not very concerned so much about my, you know, state of emotion and mental health right now or how I'm feeling physically with a child growing inside of me, but more so from like this kind of far away person, you know, and a very strange situation.
Jo McNamara (16:13)
So Mandy in terms of kind of the delivery were they quite strict on how you could deliver, when you could deliver?
Mandy Geyman (16:21)
Yeah, another great question. I personally, selfishly, I was hoping they were gonna say, come on in on this day and we're gonna knock you out and we're gonna take that baby via C-section and you're gonna wake up and have a baby and like, that's gonna be one less thing you have to even like think about. But alas, that was not the plan. And so, yeah, I actually ended up, they said, you you've had a...
typical vaginal birth before. So we're gonna do that again. And it was like, ⁓ man, not that a C-section by any means is easy. I mean, you know, I've seen what other friends have gone through, but I was like, man, we gotta add just one more like hard thing to this plan. But they ended up like inducing labor a little bit early. So she was born ⁓ about three and a half weeks early. So it wasn't, you know, some huge, giant big, of time, but you know...
It was a pretty typical, strangely to say, a very typical delivery. I was part of a research study. I had found somebody here in the United States that was doing a lot of research regarding cancer and pregnancy. And so I really felt strongly when she asked me, would you consider allowing us to do some extra tests on the placenta and that sort of thing? This could really continue to open up doors as we learn more. I said, absolutely. So while I kind of like to joke and say,
while the birth process itself was very typical, which you know, birth is a whole other slew of adventure for whoever is doing it. But I felt like it took longer for them. Like they were so like, okay, we're going to take the placenta, preserve it so perfectly. Like, you know, it was like setting up this whole research area and I'm just laying there spread-legged with this newborn baby in my arms. And they were so like careful, which I
appreciate you know that they took that seriously and wanted to use my story and my information for hopefully just wonderful things down the line but it was very surreal you know sitting there with this newborn on your chest and you're like what what is going on down there this is taking a long time ⁓ ⁓ besides that it was a pretty typical birthing experience I guess you could say
Jo McNamara (18:44)
Mandy, I don't think you realise how rare you are. Not only were you pregnant, delivered vaginally and also had cancer diagnosis, you also agreed to research. They honestly must have been besides themselves.
Mandy Geyman (18:59)
You think so? You think that that's a okay, okay. Well, maybe that explains a little more of why that was handled so delicate almost like another birth in itself, you know, but yeah. Yeah, so the really cool part is there's it's something done through it's called the Cancer and Pregnancy Registry here in the United States. And so what they do is they essentially
Naman Julka-Anderson (19:14)
What was the research going to be about?
Mandy Geyman (19:26)
from the moment your baby is born, they follow ⁓ you and your child for the first, believe it's five years. And you essentially give them access to additional testing of the placenta, of course, like as we just discussed, but also any medical records having to do with your health or the baby's health surrounding cancer treatment. So for example, when our daughter was born, they really didn't know like, do we need to do something with this baby, you know, like they didn't really know like what they were supposed to be looking for or checking. But so they kind of landed on, well, let's.
I don't know, let's check her heart, you know, because chemo can be very hard on the heart. So I think that was just kind of where they landed with it. So all of those kinds of records, you know, with her heart testing, they had access to. And so we're kind of coming up, you know, she's almost five really. soon they won't have access to those records officially anymore. But weirdly, I feel a little bit sad about it. You know, you feel like you're contributing and you feel like, gosh, like what if some
from this whole experience and these records that they're digging through. Like what if that shows something really amazing that can help somebody else down the line, if that makes sense. But that's sort of the process, you know, is they kind of get access to your placenta. That's a weird thing to say, but access to your placenta and then sort of these specific medical records as you move forward for five years.
Jo McNamara (20:54)
Mandy, did you or your daughter experience any side effects from chemo?
Mandy Geyman (20:59)
No, which is a really odd thing I know to say, but the only thing really with, with my daughter was she was born a little bit small, which we had been kind of warned or told that that's fairly typical for the type of chemotherapy, that I was on. But in terms of like, anything like developmentally or cognitively or anything like that. She was a very typical baby that was born. And even you know now as she's four and half going on five so far like there has been nothing odd or off or different than she's met all our milestones that sort of thing. Which of course like having been diagnosed during pregnancy you're immediately digging for those stories, right? Like, please, I just need to read a story where everything was fine. And most of them actually were, which is incredible. But you're still gonna worry, of course. You just worry about what if, or what if it's me? ⁓ At the time, they had just started sort of ⁓ going into this idea of using a drug called Neulasta, which essentially boosts your white blood cells in between chemo treatments. And so they hadn't really had a lot of research at the time regarding what that drug could or could not do if you were a pregnant patient receiving it. But we kind of consulted with a lot of different doctors and just the nature of the breast cancer. They said, we don't have a lot of research to say it's good, but we don't have research also to say it's bad. And so we kind of feel like it's worth it to give a try to make sure you're getting what you need to be getting to come this cancer. So of course that was my biggest concern and worry was like what if this drug that they don't really know a lot about is gonna like do something to her? What if she comes out and her head looks like a star? I don't know what could this do? But she was perfectly fine so I just find it amazing but also not only did she not really have side effects, ⁓ I really didn't experience a lot of side effects from chemo while I was going through it as a pregnant woman, which they've actually kind of said a little bit since I went through it, but they're finding that that is more and more common, is that pregnant women don't experience the same sort of side effects typically that a person who's not pregnant would experience going through chemotherapy. And they don't really know why, but they think it has something to do with the level of hormone in the body at the time and the way that your immune system is working.
So I always feel kind of embarrassed when people ask that question because I'm like, it was fine. Because I know for a lot of people it is not fine. But as a pregnant woman, weirdly, it was
Naman Julka-Anderson (24:03)
Since you've finished the treatment Mandy, have you had any late effects or late consequences of the treatments?
Mandy Geyman (24:09)
I would say not so much from chemotherapy. After I gave birth to my daughter, it was like 18 days later and I ended up having a mastectomy. Like I was still wearing like, you know, that big adult diaper. They probably don't do that in the UK. That's probably just here in the United States that they're making us wear diapers after birth.
Naman Julka-Anderson (24:27)
No, my wife definitely had them.
Mandy Geyman (24:29)
Okay, God love her But you know, I'm still in like my adult diaper, like going into the surgery to have my breasts removed and they're making me take pregnancy tests. I'm like, my God. But I had the mastectomy afterward that showed a complete response to chemo, which was amazing. I'm not a very cool person, but I feel like that's one cool thing I can say about myself is like, I beat cancer while I was pregnant. That's really the only cool thing about me. But I mean,
to boast that now, kind of after the surgery, that was great news, but because it was inflammatory, I had to have radiation. And so it was a pretty intensive radiation. So I would say effect wise, the most effects I experienced now, know, kind of post treatment are really from radiation. My skin will never look the same again. And it's very tight, you know, that sort of thing. It can be uncomfortable at times.
But again, I feel like it's pretty minimal compared to what many other people experience. So even though I can complain about tight skin and that sort of thing, ⁓ I also wanna be respectful of those people knowing that they can have a lot worse at times.
Jo McNamara (25:47)
I think that is something that Naman and I hear all the time when we talk with cancer patients. You never want to open heartedly say, this is really shit. Like this is really impacting my quality of life because so many people are like, but I'm thankful I'm alive or I'm thankful that you've done this treatment or I know other people have it worse. And we totally understand why, but... you also do need to own it. Like it's absolutely fine to be like, this has affected me and actually it does stop me from doing certain things. And I think the more people maybe are open about that, the more people kind of will then also open up and share their experiences and go, yeah, I'm thankful I had treatment. I'm thankful I'm alive. I'm thankful my daughter's okay, but do you know what?
Actually yes there are certain times that I get down about the consequences of treatment that I'm left with. I don't know so own it Mandy it's absolutely fine and you can moan about anything to do with the consequences of your treatment because I think it's important and also for healthcare professionals we don't hear from patients all the time about what the late side effects are because they don't want to tell us because they're like no it's fine it's fine it's fine.
Don't worry. Don't worry about me. I know you've saved my life. I'll be thankful and I'll just keep quiet. Whereas meanwhile you're suffering with, you know, crippling fatigue and you you think, I'm just tired. I can't moan about that. Please, everyone listening who's gone through cancer, tell us because it's important for us to know so that we can then put things in place during treatment to help prepare you for when you ultimately then do experience these side effects.
Mandy Geyman (27:07)
very easy. Right.
Thank you for saying that. Like, I really appreciate you saying that because I do think...
you're totally right, know, especially from the medical professional side of things. ⁓ Cause I know most people aren't going into, especially oncology, anything with the idea of like, ⁓ I'm going to send them to chemo or radiation or whatever. And then total new, you know, I know that most of those people you're doing it because you really care about people. And that involves everything from physical to mental to emotional. And I think that's a really good point. Thank you for, for mentioning that, but kind of give some good perspective, for me especially, you know, in sharing and moving
Naman Julka-Anderson (28:22)
Mandy, obviously having a child can impact your body confidence, but then having mastectomy and radiotherapy and kind of the changes to your skin, how are you managing with your body confidence at the moment?
Mandy Geyman (28:34)
That's a great question. Also, thank you for asking that. Because I know I keep saying that, but just thank you for asking. I feel like these are conversations we don't normally have, right? When it comes to, like, I'm just thinking, not that I'm corner somebody at the park, you know, another mom and be like, let me tell you about what I'm going through. But thank you for asking that. I would say the biggest, when it comes to body confidence and that sort of thing is,
kind of in between all of this stuff happening with chemo and mastectomy and I had reconstruction, know, like all this stuff. I also had an oophorectomy. So I had my ovaries and my tubes removed. And that was kind of a twofold thing. Like I'm a BRCA2 mutation winner. And so that was kind of to help prevent ⁓ future cancers. And also my breast cancer was hormone fueled. So it was also to try and like reduce that risk as well. It was just a decision I thought was the best to make.
Wasn't gonna go through more pregnancy. I had decided that pretty quickly into my diagnosis And so I'm at 33, you know, I went into menopause because I had this removed and so while it's not exactly
It's not like I had cancer treatment that caused some of these body changes and issues, but the decision was definitely driven by that cancer experience that have caused a lot of these different body changes and maybe ⁓ self-confidence things. I would say to better answer your question, it's kind of just an ever evolving ⁓ process. My body feels much different than it did before I had children, just like we were saying, but it also feels much different than before I had chemotherapy, even as a pregnant woman. And so I definitely feel like...
It's kind of there's two sides to the coin on one side of the coin. I feel much older than my actual age. Like I tend to at a social gathering. I'm relating a lot more to like the 70 and 80 year olds. Like I'm like, you tell me your ailments and I'll tell you my ailments and we'll compare notes like, you know, like because that's my life. Like that's what I'm thinking about all the time. And so not that I'm like making every decision every day, around that, but that's my everyday reality, know, taking post-cancer meds and that sort of thing. So I tend to relate a bit more to those people when it comes to those types of conversations that I'm relating to some of my peers who are still, you know, very much growing their families and do we want another child or not, you know.
And so I think because of that a bit, it's tended to make me feel a little bit differently about my body, which I know I'm sure every cancer survivor you guys probably talk to say similarly of like, I'm trying to get to know my new body and my new normal. Yes, all of that for sure. But also trying to learn how to embrace and love my body as a not even 40 year old woman, if that makes sense.
And so lots of therapy, you know, to really just get to the crux of it, lots of therapy ⁓ and just trying to find other survivors as well who are close in age or have been through a similar cancer experience to me. You know, there's a lot of good things that come from those conversations and just feeling like you're heard and somebody understands and you're not just withering away into a bag of bones. before your still very young husband's eyes, you know.
Jo McNamara (32:12)
Mandy, I'm glad you touched on therapy there because it's something that as someone from the UK, we do associate Americans with having more access to. In the UK, it can be really difficult unless you pray privately to get a therapist. It can be really difficult to get that psychological support. How much of an impact does therapy have? I know you kind of said it quite flippantly going, I've had lots of therapy, but how important has it been for you to have that extent of therapy to really...get over that cancer diagnosis and what you've been through.
Mandy Geyman (32:53)
Huge. I mean, it's been huge. And I will say, you know,
We're very lucky. I'm located in Cincinnati, Ohio within the United States. like weirdly, I don't know if this is really a good thing to boast, but we are a very cancer centric city, meaning we have a lot of different hospital systems. We have a lot of resources here, a lot of non-profits, which is wonderful. That's a beautiful gift. I wish that other people in our United States and our friends across the pond, I wish you guys had that same level of resource,
and support surrounding you, you know, very within your own kind of communities. But I will say we have an organisation here. It's non-profit. It's free. ⁓ And they specifically ⁓ cater to cancer survivors and their families. And so it's a free service that you can essentially reach out and sign up for. And you get put with a therapist who is very well versed.
kind of their specialty is cancer survivorship. And so I've now been, I think, seeing somebody there for about four years. And I think it's a very unique situation because she's so well-versed, obviously, in like the cancer world. I can talk with her very openly about cancer related topics, right? I kind of feel the same about you guys as I'm talking with you. know, if I was having a conversation just with my neighbour across the street, it would look much different.
because I know she's not as familiar with a cancer diagnosis and thank God, but there's a type of freedom there to be able to talk with somebody, not only a therapist who is well-versed in PTSD or anxiety ⁓ or a medical anxiety, but also somebody who knows cancer specifically. And I think that's been a huge tool is to be able to talk to somebody who really gets it. And I don't know if you guys have heard that
This is a very new thing for me. But my therapist says ⁓ that trauma tends to be get trauma, like obviously anybody going through a cancer diagnosis, whether you're pregnant or not, that's very traumatic for anybody, no matter what age, it's a traumatic thing. And so what I found is even though maybe I'm not in chemotherapy anymore, I'm not doing radiation anymore,
there's like weirdly like other trauma that kind of will start to pop up or things that I've experienced in life, know, way pre cancer diagnosis even that I'll start to like kind of think about or have moments of it's the weirdest thing. And I was kind of saying this to my therapist recently and she's like, well, yeah, it trauma begets trauma. We see this all the time, you know, like cancer survivors are like, I made it or even like I'm making it.
And then the next thing you know, they're like, I gotta talk about my childhood. You know what I mean? Like, it's this very interesting dynamic that happens. And I don't know if that has to do with the fact that...
maybe partly the fact that you're faced with your own mortality with a cancer diagnosis. And so the next thing you know, it's like, you know, I really need to get my affairs in order about that stuff that happened. You know what I mean? Like that really has been weighing on my mind. And so I say all this is like, yes, therapy has been so helpful in moving forward through the diagnosis and the aftermath and like what that looks like. Definitely. But it also has been very helpful to kind of find some peace and joy from even like past things weirdly which you wouldn't expect from a cancer therapist but I don't know it's it's been only positive ⁓ in summary.
Naman Julka-Anderson (36:47)
The sounds amazing, sounds like the right bit of healing that you needed. I think to go one step further from what they said about the trauma, there's something called the Karpman Triangle, which is about rescue a persecutor or victim, I think. And we see this in clinics and with patients that they may come for their treatment for radiotherapy and they're feeling like the victim, like why me? Why have I got cancer?
Mandy Geyman (36:48)
Yes. ⁓
Naman Julka-Anderson (37:11)
or then they may on some days maybe if the machine's broken down like why are you making my day even worse? That kind of thing is a persecutor and eventually they become the rescuer to help other people by sharing their stories or guide them through treatment. But that's how another way of kind of managing the trauma is realizing where you are in the triangle. It's something I teach all the time. Very psychology focused but I find it really interesting because once you think of it that way you'll notice everyone including yourself goes through that triangle every single day.
Mandy Geyman (37:41)
that's fascinating. I have never in my four years of therapy, I have never heard of that. I definitely, gosh, I wanna look more into that. That's so interesting. Thank you for sharing that.
Jo McNamara (37:53)
Mandy's gonna go to a therapist and go I want to talk to you about and she'll be like whoa where have you learned this from just two radiographers in the UK
Mandy Geyman (38:02)
So like you talked to Rad Chat.
You talked to Rad Chat, didn't you? Okay, well.
Jo McNamara (38:08)
So Mandy, on that same theme of sharing your experience, ⁓ tell us about social media. Why have you taken to social media to share your story?
Mandy Geyman (38:19)
Yeah, well honestly at first it kind of started as very much a necessity because of COVID at the time. Like we weren't really able to see our friends and family in person very often, especially going through cancer treatment, know, just compromised immune system, all of that. And so I sort of started just kind of posting about what was going on on social media because it was just kind of like a quick.
almost lazy way for me to kind of put out and update everybody in one fell swoop, you know what I mean? And then it kind of evolved into something else, which was me seeking other women who had been through cancer and pregnancy. And I kind of started using it for those connections, you know, and finding those people and saying like, hey, I saw you went through this. ⁓ What was your experience? How are you doing now? And so I found some really amazing women that way and support systems that way, know kind of people that not only watched the walk but had to talk the talk and so it kind of evolved to that and then I realised that in kind of those two schools of thought merging those things into Whatever it's become now ⁓ It's it's just very much this very cool way to continue sharing my story, but also to really focus on like life post cancer. And I think a lot of people, no matter, again, whether you're diagnosed as a pregnant person or not, a lot of people are looking for that, what's gonna happen after this? You know, they wanna see what happens after, because of course, your head is full of the worst case scenario. And so I think there's just a really powerful thing in being able to show people what's going on. kind of after the fact. And I think it makes people feel seen and heard most certainly, but I think it also just, it can be a very motivating factor in feeling like, okay, this isn't forever. Like this crazy lady who was pregnant ⁓ got through hers and look, she's doing okay. She's a little nuts, but she's doing okay. And just kind of seeing that there is life after I think is really... powerful.
You know, there's a lot of just like normal everyday stuff that I'm sharing, but also trying to share like how there always is kind of this umbrella of I'm always going to be a cancer patient. And I think, ⁓ you know, even my family, like parents, friends, that sort of thing, they really struggle with that. You know, it's like, well, but you're good now. Like you're so good and you are moving on. And it's like, but, but I'm not, mean, like I'm physically, much better and that's wonderful, that's a gift. But also like pretty much every decision, medically at least, that I'm going to be making from here on out is always going to be under that umbrella. And even sometimes on a social level or an emotional level, you know, is always kind of made with that in the background or, my head and I don't necessarily think that that's wrong and I don't think that's a bad thing. think because that's just an uncomfortable thing to say or an uncomfortable thing even to see your loved one say.
There's also a lot of good in that. I feel like I'm much more protective of my time as an individual now. Again, going back to that, if you're faced with your own mortality, do I really wanna have to volunteer at this thing I didn't really wanna do? No, I actually really wanna volunteer over here. It really kinda puts things into perspective.
And I don't think that's always a bad thing. I think it really can be a good thing. And I hope that my page is sharing that for other people. I hope that they see that and I hope they feel motivated by that as well.
Jo McNamara (42:11)
I always picture myself after giving birth to Noah in a park with a group of mums that I met through what we call here in the UK NCT classes. So it's kind of preparing you for birth and then motherhood. Really, it's just a great opportunity to get to know other people who are going through the same hell as you with a newborn baby. But I always think that...
You know, we were there in that park and we just spent an hour moaning about the fact that we're new mums and yes, we're very joyous about the fact we have these amazing babies, but God are we tired and God do our bits hurt and our breasts are hurting and every time he screams, I'm like milk is coming out. Yeah, you just moan. And the thing that I am in awe of is the fact that
you would have been going through that same process whilst also dealing with cancer patients. Like you would do it be the same if you're in a peer support group you hear people going my gosh menopause it's horrific like horrific how are you coping with menopause but those two worlds colliding at the same time I just can't imagine and I would imagine that's why having peer support whether that's on social media or face to face or through a charity is so powerful when you have rare conditions.
Mandy Geyman (43:39)
Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, I think even to your point, you know, ⁓ there's all kinds of different situations even that women have to experience during and after pregnancy that might not be deemed typical for pregnancy, you know, just like moms of twins or triplets or other multiples, you know, they're obviously like they can relate to somebody who's had a child like myself, but they're really looking for people that have also had multiple. that they can be like, okay, I'm not crazy, right? Like this is really hard, you know? I think that's such a great point, you know, that we all need to be seeking out those individuals. And what a gift that we have in social, I mean, you know, we always hear the bad stuff, but what a gift that we have this ability to be able to find those people in a way that we probably never would have been able to find them before.
Naman Julka-Anderson (44:34)
Mandy, how do people find you on social media? What's your handle?
Mandy Geyman (44:39)
It is Warrior Mama Mandy, all one word, so just ridiculously to the point and a little boastful, I admit, but it's stuck. And so that's what we're going with. And ⁓ yeah, I've met some of the most incredible people that way and ⁓ not just me reaching out, but other people.
finding me and reaching out. And yeah, I'd love to connect with anybody, even if they're not cancer pregnant people, just anybody who needs to feel like they need to be seen and heard post cancer or post trauma. You're my people, so come on down. Come on down to the house.
Jo McNamara (45:22)
The most American phrase to end on there, Mandy.
Mandy Geyman (45:26)
Wait.
Jo McNamara (45:36)
So we always end our episodes with top tips. Are there any top tips you would like to give any of our listeners, whether that's patients who are going through a cancer, diagnosis and treatment, anyone who's pregnant, any students or healthcare professionals, this is your opportunity. whatever you would like to spread digitally.
Mandy Geyman (46:00)
I would say the biggest thing and like this is for everybody but probably more aim toward medical professionals or like students who are aiming to become a medical professional. ⁓ I would say one of the greatest gifts that you can give especially somebody going through cancer while they're pregnant is the gift of their pregnancy being included in your conversations. Obviously needing to be included for medical decisions.
Yes, but I think it's very easy to forget that that person sitting in front of you with a cancer diagnosis is also pregnant and they're also going through all the pregnancy things and it really does make a difference to have somebody who doesn't really need to at the end of the day having somebody say like
How's your pregnancy? Is it a girl or a boy? Are you finding out? Have you done anything with the nursery? Because even though you're going through this very like medically specific situation and having lots of appointments, you also are feeling the joy of the fact that you're pregnant and you're adding to your family. And that's very much a weird place to exist, but having a medical professional humanise you a bit in that situation and circumstance.
It makes such a difference because you just feel like okay. I trust you so much with my care and with my unborn babies care But when you're asking those questions it really does make you at least as a patient a mother feel like you're not just worried about Getting me through this treatment. You're also worried about me and this unborn baby who though we cannot see it you're acknowledging that there's two of us here and ⁓ I think that goes a really long way and ⁓ also on the of flip side of that for patients is you deserve that kind of ⁓ treatment from your team and trust from your team. And so I would just encourage anybody who might find themselves in a similar circumstance to it's okay to find somebody that might not be the first person you thought was going to be your right fit. you know, I think making sure that everybody feels seen, heard, cared for, and on the same page will make a world of difference. And so, yeah, I would just want to empower those people to also find those wonderful medical professionals that are out there. And there's so many of them who are willing to look at you like a person and your baby as a person and not just, you know, patient number 64. five of the day or whatever. Yeah, that would be my top tip.
Jo McNamara (48:44)
Brilliant. Thank you so much Mandy for joining us on Rad Chat. It's been a pleasure. ⁓ So thank you all for listening to Rad Chat. We've had Mandy Geyman talking about her experience of breast cancer during pregnancy. Thank you very much.
Mandy Geyman (48:59)
Thank you.
Jo McNamara (49:03)
Our next guest to feature will be us, Naman and Jo for our 200th CPD episode. Thank you for listening and take care.
Jo McNamara (49:11)
So what do you do now? Well you can use this episode as part of our free continual professional development accredited content which offers flexible learning that fits your busy schedule. Just check out the show notes for the reflective questions, links to literature and resources and link to the completed form to receive your accredited certificate.
Naman Julka-Anderson (49:30)
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Jo McNamara (49:40)
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Naman Julka-Anderson (50:03)
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Jo McNamara (50:18)
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