Beyond The Job Title | Underrepresented Career Stories

In this episode, we are joined by the remarkable Carrie Melissa Jones, an entrepreneur, author, researcher, and trusted advisor to community-led businesses. Carrie's mission centers around fostering a profound sense of belonging for people, and throughout our conversation, she shares invaluable insights and experiences from her community management journey. 

  • (00:00) - Intro
  • (03:40) - Creating Belonging: Carrie's Mission in Community Management
  • (04:27) - Discovering Community Management: Carrie's Serendipitous Journey
  • (08:14) - Making Connections: Exploring Communities Through Personal Interests
  • (10:22) - Unexpected Lessons: Insights from Carrie's Experience Building Communities
  • (11:30) - Thriving Together: The Essential Ingredient for Community Success
  • (13:39) - Don’t Put Leaders On a Pedestal
  • (19:13) - Venturing into Consulting: Advice for Community Managers
  • (24:45) - Community For Creators V.S. Community For Enterprises: Biggest Differences
  • (26:52) - Navigating Tough Conversations: Strategies for Community Managers
  • (31:26) - Virtual V.S. Physical Communities: Is There a Difference?
  • (34:34) - Community Management Trends
  • (44:04) - If You Really Feel Compelled By The Work You Do, Stick With It Regardless Of How Tough Things Are
  • (45:25) - Outro

Carrie’s Bio

Carrie Melissa Jones is an entrepreneur, author, researcher, and advisor to community businesses. She has helped hundreds of organizations build thriving online communities that further their success—including Airbnb, Google, Microsoft, Project Management Institute, two U.S. presidential campaigns, and small businesses and non-profits worldwide. In addition, she is the co-author of the book Building Brand Communities with Charles Vogl and holds an M.A. in communication with a concentration in virtual communities.

Before founding The CMJ Group, She was the Founding Partner and COO for CMX Media (acquired by Bevy Labs), a unique “community of community builders” that provided training, events, and programs for community builders worldwide. 

In 2016, Salesforce named Carrie as one of three experts to follow in community management, and her work and writing have appeared in Business Insider, Venture Beat, Convince and Convert, The Next Web, First Round Review, and Creator by WeWork.

Referenced
Where to find Carrie

Where to find Cesar

Creators & Guests

Host
Cesar Romero
Helping startups and SMBs build strong customer relationships that drive product adoption, reduce churn, and increase revenue | Community-Driven | Podcast Host
Guest
Carrie Melissa Jones
Online Community Strategist & Award-Winning Author

What is Beyond The Job Title | Underrepresented Career Stories?

The lack of diversity in tech can lead to imposter syndrome, bias, and a sense of isolation that hinders your growth and ambition.

Welcome to 'Beyond The Job Title Podcast,' where we shine a spotlight on the journeys of underrepresented tech professionals and allies within the SaaS industry.

Join us as we delve into the personal development and career insights that have fueled their success.

Discover the stories of trailblazing underrepresented SaaS founders, executives, and professionals who have broken barriers and achieved remarkable milestones.

Whether you're seeking inspiration, mentorship, or actionable strategies to advance your career, our podcast is your go-to resource.

Tune in to gain valuable insights, build your network, and navigate your tech career journey with confidence.

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Carrie Melissa Jones | BJT12 - Main
[00:00:00]
[00:00:00] Carrie: what I've learned over the years is that actually for a community to be successful, we all have to see ourselves as having a part in it. It can't just be the community manager doing all of the community and, um, it's got to be like other staff members, um, members of the community stepping up into leadership roles.
[00:00:16] Carrie: It's a, it's a team sport. So, um, yeah, just over the years, I've kind of. Stepped out of that tactical work and more into teaching the principles and, and all that. And I, I think, like I was saying, the, the big shift in my work and my approach to it is that I didn't think I was qualified to teach those things.
[00:00:34] Carrie: I'm like thinking, you know, somebody else will teach people those principles. Like it's too hard to teach anybody, uh, how to do these things. And I'm not the right person to do it. Um, especially given, you know, like. I'm a pretty, I'm still pretty quiet introverted person. I'm just like, I'm not the person to do it.
[00:00:49] Carrie: And then I thought, you know what, no one else is doing this in the way that I do it. And I actually am qualified to teach all this. And, um, if we really want people to learn these skills, [00:01:00] then we've got to teach them the principles.
[00:01:02] Cesar: Hey friends, this is your host Cesar Romero. And you're listening to beyond the job title podcast, the show that explores the human experiences to shape our professional and personal lives.
[00:01:22] Cesar: My guest for this episode is Carrie Manisa Jones. She's an entrepreneur, author, researcher, and advisor to community led businesses. She has helped hundreds of organizations build thriving online communities. Including companies like Airbnb, Google, Microsoft.
[00:01:41] Cesar: Project management Institute. To us. Presidential campaigns and small businesses and nonprofits.
[00:01:47] Cesar: She is also the author of the book building brand communities with Charles Vogel. And it's one of my favorite books around how to build a community for your [00:02:00] business.
[00:02:00] Cesar: I met Carrie. When she was to found him poner and C oh four CMX media. Would you say community for community builders to provide a training events and programs for community builders? And I quickly resonated with Carrie because she is one of those. People. That truly cares about her craft. She's authentic.
[00:02:23] Cesar: And. Her mission is to. Help people feel a sense of belonging. And I resonate with that so much. And in this episode, we have a conversation. Around her career journey.
[00:02:35] Cesar: How did she stumble upon community management? What her mission is? In the community management field. approach to making connections, unexpected lessons that have come up throughout her career. In community management.
[00:02:47] Cesar: We talk a little bit about. What it takes to go into consulting advice for community managers. Overall, it's an amazing conversation with my goof friend, Carrie. And. We share invaluable insights and [00:03:00] experiences from her community management journey.
[00:03:02] Cesar: So if you are someone that is. I command the man. Sure. Or you're building a community led business. Then this episode is for you. And please don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss out. Any future episodes. Thanks so much for joining and here's my conversation. With my friend, Carrie. Carrie, thanks so much for joining us on the show. I appreciate you taking the time. I wanted to start off by asking you, um, if someone Where to meet you, you know, on the street and where to ask you, Hey, Carrie, you know, what, what mission, like who, who are you and what mission are you on?
[00:03:38] Cesar: You know, what, what will be the person that, that comes
[00:03:40] Carrie: to mind? Yeah. So I usually sum this up as, uh, I'm on a mission to help everyone feel that they have a place to belong. So that's, what's important to me. And I don't care whether that place is digital or in person in their neighborhood. Some people find that some people don't, um, I want to enable more people to, to have that feeling of.
[00:03:58] Carrie: Belonging and connection in their [00:04:00] lives.
[00:04:00] Cesar: Why is that important to you? And was there a pivotal moment in your life that made you decide, this is what I want to help people with?
[00:04:13] Carrie: We're going right into this. I love it. I mean, I think I know it's important to me because, you know, we often try to resolve the problems that we have felt in the past.
[00:04:27] Carrie: Um, and, you know, growing up, I definitely felt like an outsider in a lot of ways. I was a very, very quiet, um, kid and teenager, and I did not know how to. Talk to people at all. I was just very, very quiet. Um, and you know, I did have friends, but I felt like there was like a boundary or a block there. And I found that I was actually able to finally open up and get to know people and allow people to know me on a really deep level.
[00:04:54] Carrie: Um, when I discovered online communities, actually, so it was not in person that I felt [00:05:00] safe. Um, And, uh, I joined a bunch of music forums. This would have been in the late nineties, early two thousands, um, and made friends through those, uh, communities that really got me through some of the hardest times, um, In my youth and, uh, yeah, just saw that, that that was possible to do from an early age.
[00:05:20] Carrie: Um, of course, I didn't think that was my career path. I was like, Oh, that was a fun thing that I did when I was, you know, 15, 16, whenever, however old I was. Um, and I thought I would go into, I always loved writing and things like that. So I thought I would go into publishing, um, or editing, uh, but I found myself.
[00:05:36] Carrie: Even when I worked in publishing for a little while and even in the challenges that would come up in publishing, like, um, there weren't enough experts to create content for the books that we were creating and things like that. The solutions to me were always about collaboration and community building.
[00:05:53] Carrie: And so I realized in hindsight, like, I always have this lens of how can we connect. To be more [00:06:00] powerful together. And so, um, I didn't know community management was a job. I didn't know that was something I could do. Um, I actually like my job titles when I moved from publishing into the startup world. I had like a forget now even what my job title was it was something like it was a sales territory manager is what it was.
[00:06:17] Carrie: It was like a sales role. I was more like a recruiter. And, um, you know, content or editorial manager, things like that. Um, but I discovered I was in, in the Bay area in California at the time. And I discovered that there were people like at companies that I really admired, like Pinterest, um, or Lyft or Airbnb who had this job title of community manager and seemed to be doing like.
[00:06:40] Carrie: Really cool things like meetups and just talking to the customers and getting to know them better. And so I discovered there was a small group run by one of my now friends. Um, and I started to attend that and, uh, Everything just like, this is a job that I can do. I can't believe this. And I still remember I [00:07:00] went to the first meetup I went to, I was so nervous to go.
[00:07:03] Carrie: I promised myself, I'm just going to go. I'm going to talk to one person and that's, that's all I'm going to do. And so I went, I had one conversation and then I left cause I was just so. Nervous. And, uh, and then I went the next time and it felt like a lot more, I had figured out Twitter by this time. So I met people ahead of time on Twitter.
[00:07:20] Carrie: I was like, I'm going to be there tonight, like making sure I didn't back out at the last minute. Um, and, uh, I remember like having a dinner with somebody I was dating at the time afterwards and I was like, this is my job forever after this is what I'm going to do. I just knew that that was What I was passionate about.
[00:07:34] Carrie: So I've been doing that ever since. And then later on, actually years after that, I was like, Oh, I've actually been doing this a really long time. I've always been doing this. Um, so I didn't make that connection until later, but looking back now, it's, it's pretty obvious it was not at the time.
[00:07:49] Cesar: Do you remember the name of the first community that they stumbled upon?
[00:07:54] Cesar: And what was it about that experience that made you feel?[00:08:00] A sense of connection, a sense of belonging.
[00:08:03] Carrie: Yeah. I mean, there were, there was a couple. So I, and they're, they don't exist anymore. These music forums, um, they were mostly around like, uh, just some of the bands that I really liked at the time, like taking back Sunday or like all these emo bands.
[00:08:14] Carrie: Um, and, You know, it's interesting because I discovered all of them because my dad was trying to teach me how to play guitar actually. And so I was, um, trying to find, um, music sheets online, uh, that I could use to practice. Um, that was not a successful endeavor. Um, Way too frustrating to have your dad be like, this is really easy to do.
[00:08:32] Carrie: You're like, no, it's not. Um, anyway, so I was looking for the practical and this is how often how people come to communities, they're like, I'm looking for a very practical thing. And then I found out there were people who were answering questions about the sheet music and like how to make it. Your own how to make it better.
[00:08:48] Carrie: And, uh, then I discovered the general or like off topic areas and I was like, Oh, these are like teenagers like me. Um, and they were talking about like bad dates that they had been on or, you know, like their swim meet [00:09:00] that they. You know, had just like won a medal and, and I was like, these are people like, I can't believe this.
[00:09:06] Carrie: And I, I just remember thinking like, I want to be part of these conversations or I want a place where I can also share these things and I can also celebrate or laugh alongside these people. And they're like embarrassing stories and all of that. So that's what it was is I, I had come to the practice for the practical and then saw that there was like much deeper things happening and then became a moderator in those communities and stuck around for a few years until.
[00:09:30] Carrie: I didn't like those bands anymore. None of us actually like, like the bands anymore. By the end of it, um, we were just friends at that point.
[00:09:38] Cesar: So, yeah, that's, that's how most, most people find community. Right. It's like typically a personal interest or a topic or a personal problem. Yeah. And that's how I found one of the communities that had a profound impact on me.
[00:09:53] Cesar: I actually ended up working at the company. It was a startup, but it all started because. You know, I wanted to [00:10:00] travel and it just happens that the, the community was just getting started. Um, and the founder was like, yeah, when he held a, I started getting involved in the, in the meetups in the community. It took me into this like a year journey of building a travel community.
[00:10:16] Carrie: Yeah. Right. Wild thinking about it. It is wild. Yeah.
[00:10:21] Cesar: It is wild. Um,
[00:10:22] Cesar: So you've been helping build community, right? Creators businesses for over 10 years now, right? Um, what have been some of the unexpected lessons that have come up, uh, throughout this journey?
[00:10:38] Carrie: So many I'm constantly learning. Um, like that's good all the time. Um, yeah, I mean, I think. Yeah. I've been, I've been consulting alone for nine years now.
[00:10:43] Carrie: I was just doing some reflecting on that. Yeah. So, I mean, I started out in house, moved into a community consultant role, which now I'm seeing at the time there was like five of us. And now there's like just so many community consultants and they'll have different specialties and things like that. [00:11:00] But, um, I think for me, looking back on that journey, the biggest thing that's changed over that time, actually the work itself.
[00:11:08] Carrie: Has not changed much. The work of community building, the principles are all the same. The tools are different, of course, like Discord didn't exist. Back then or slack, even that was early days of slack would have been right around then. Um, and so I think I was really focused on the tactical at the time and thinking like there was no system in place.
[00:11:30] Carrie: And I just had to, the only thing I could offer people was like doing it for them, building community for them. But the truth is, is what I've learned over the years is that actually for a community to be successful, we all have to see ourselves as having a part in it. It can't just be the community manager doing all of the community and, um, it's got to be like other staff members, um, members of the community stepping up into leadership roles.
[00:11:53] Carrie: It's a, it's a team sport. So, um, yeah, just over the years, I've kind of. Stepped out of that tactical [00:12:00] work and more into teaching the principles and, and all that. And I, I think, like I was saying, the, the big shift in my work and my approach to it is that I didn't think I was qualified to teach those things.
[00:12:11] Carrie: I'm like thinking, you know, somebody else will teach people those principles. Like it's too hard to teach anybody, uh, how to do these things. And I'm not the right person to do it. Um, especially given, you know, like. I'm a pretty, I'm still pretty quiet introverted person. I'm just like, I'm not the person to do it.
[00:12:26] Carrie: And then I thought, you know what, no one else is doing this in the way that I do it. And I actually am qualified to teach all this. And, um, if we really want people to learn these skills, then we've got to teach them the principles. Um, it's like a matter of, you know, copy pasting versus knowing how to. Do the work and write the piece.
[00:12:46] Carrie: So, um, yeah, I think that's, that's been one of the big shifts for me. And one of the big lessons is that nobody else is going to do the thing that you want to do in the way that you want to do it. So you might as well just get over yourself and stop telling yourself that you're not the one to do it and, uh, and [00:13:00] practice that.
[00:13:00] Carrie: And if you need a coach through it or, you know, um, mentors through it, then yeah. So do we all. So find that.
[00:13:07] Cesar: A couple things that's not here. One is that I've gone through your accelerator program. Yeah. And you, you and your team taught me that you can be strategic when building community. It's not just about being in the weeds.
[00:13:21] Cesar: Yeah, because I tend to gravitate towards doing the groundwork, because Right. That's, I don't know. That's how I learned to, to build community. Um, but when I, when I took your course, I, I realized, wait a minute, you can be strategic. Like you, you can just have a, like an overall vision, um, and, and that was super insightful.
[00:13:39] Cesar: So thanks for doing the work and putting it out there. Um, and the second thing that comes up here, and this is something that I want to make sure I say my notes here. Uh, I read, I read on your Instagram. Share something about the four million years you played a small right hoping to find a leader that you will come to and give you the answers.[00:14:00]
[00:14:00] Cesar: And that resonated with me because In many ways, I still feel like I am that person that is trying to find a leader or someone to give me the answers, uh, even with, with parenting.
[00:14:12] Cesar: But I've been so disappointed every time I try to find that leader and I'm starting to come to terms that The one that has the answers is is me. So I was, I was curious about that, you know, what prompted that for you and was there a specific experience that made you realize that, hey, no one's going to give you the answers but but me.
[00:14:33] Carrie: Yeah, um, I think it's a, it's a accumulation of, of a couple of things. Um, One is, you know, I think for a long time I looked up to many, many people early in my career. And I mean, early in my life, we all like put people up on a pedestal. Yep. Right. And even like, you know, thought leaders, I still do it with like Brene Brown, for example.
[00:14:51] Carrie: I'm just like, she must be a perfect human being. She says like. In her writing, I'm, I deal with this stuff too. It's hard. Um, you just don't believe it. You're like, Oh, you know, but, [00:15:00] but I'm sure if I were to meet Brene Brown, I would find things about her that I didn't want to emulate, you know? Um, it's because she's a human being and so am I.
[00:15:09] Carrie: Um, and, and so are you, and, um, there are always like bits and pieces of lessons that we can take from people. But I think, um, what I did for a long time was just think like, Oh, if I can just be more like this person, then I will be. Better or like I will be the kind of leader that they are, but, uh, and having my own personal experiences with, you know, I had joined, I worked on building CMX for a number of years, four years or so.
[00:15:34] Carrie: And, uh, you know, for a long time, I was like. My, my business partner, David, he has all the answers. No, he doesn't. But I would defer to him for things. And I just be like, he must know. Um, and I'm like, no, you don't. Um, and, and, you know, just like seeing him as a, as a person, and it's not fair to hold people up on pedestals like that.
[00:15:51] Carrie: Um, And, uh, and so, you know, like seeing that up close and then also now consulting too, I work with a lot of executive leaders. And again, you have this impression like, [00:16:00] Oh, they know what they're doing. They have conviction. They have vision. Um, they know how to navigate situations again. No, they don't. I mean, they, they will often hold a vision.
[00:16:09] Carrie: If they're great leaders, they'll hold a vision. It will hold values. Um, but they make mistakes too. And, uh, And I think I work with a lot of leaders and the conversations I prompt tend to be very vulnerable conversations, and they also don't, you know, they don't know the answers and they know they don't know the answers.
[00:16:25] Carrie: And so again holding those people up on a pedestal is doing them a disservice. And it means that you're playing small because you're playing like someone's going to tell me what to do, and they're not. And actually. They would be better served if you said what you felt conviction about, um, and so, yeah, I think that a combination of, you know, my, my work history and all that.
[00:16:47] Carrie: And then I also went through an incredible year long coaching program with, um, her name is Tanya Geisler. She focuses specifically on like the, she calls it the imposter complex, not imposter syndrome, because it's not a medical diagnosis. Um, [00:17:00] and, uh, She, it transformed kind of like how I step up and lead in the world.
[00:17:06] Carrie: Um, and one of the things that she taught all of us is that. Is this idea that leaders are humans and one of the cycles that she really brought illuminated for me that I was doing is like, you pick a person, you idolize them, then you find out that they're a human being. And then you're like, I don't like that person anymore.
[00:17:24] Carrie: I'm going to tear them down. Oh, man, I was like, I don't do that. And then I thought about it for a little while. And I was like, Oh no, I do. I do. I do. I do that. Um, but we do it to ourselves too, is the thing. We're like, okay, I can achieve this or I can, I can be this kind of person. And then we see, actually, it's not that easy.
[00:17:43] Carrie: Um, I'm going to be tested. I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to be bad at this sometimes. And then we're like, then I won't even bother or we'll tear ourselves down. Um, but if instead we hold each other with grace, I think. That's actually what we need more of in the world. So yeah, that's my long winded answer [00:18:00] to that question.
[00:18:01] Cesar: Definitely not long winded and definitely resonates with, especially putting people on a pedestal because I've done that before. And I've been disappointed when I get to meet them in person and not in a, in a bad way. It's, it's, it's more of like, Oh, I thought you were superhero. Yeah. You're just human like me.
[00:18:21] Cesar: Yeah. And you just happen to be more bold or courageous than me. Right. So, um, I think that's, that's important too, to keep in mind. It's like you can do, you can be the leader that you want to see in the world. Right. You don't need nobody's permission. Yeah. To step into that. Um, Even though it might be scary, right?
[00:18:41] Cesar: It
[00:18:41] Carrie: will be. Yeah. Yeah. Because the moment you start saying what you believe in and standing behind it is the moment people will question you. Um, yeah. And so you've really got to believe in what you believe in and know that you'll probably question yourself plenty on that journey. And that's, that is the journey.
[00:18:57] Cesar: I am questioning myself this day.
[00:18:59] Carrie: [00:19:00] Good. Then you're doing it, you know? Yeah.
[00:19:01] Cesar: Yeah. Um, two, uh, one thing here, but there was something else, um, that I wanted to ask you about. Oh, let's, let's, you mentioned when you engage in consulting, right? You create this, uh, environment where, uh, leaders or whomever you're consulting with, uh, they feel that they can share, be honest, transparent.
[00:19:13] Cesar: Um, what's your, what's your approach to engaging, uh, with, with clients, businesses to, to create this environment, uh, and have a successful relationship, right? Um, especially for, for those community managers out there that might be considering, hey, you know, I think I should. I want to try consulting, right?
[00:19:28] Cesar: But they, they don't want, they don't know how to, how to approach
[00:19:30] Carrie: it. Yeah. Um, it's a really good question. And I don't think it's, I feel like this is actually, uh, holding these brave spaces and vulnerable conversations is one of the things I just personally know I can do better than anyone else. I'll just be totally braggy.
[00:19:46] Carrie: Whatever about it. Um. Because I've worked on that really, really hard. Um, and so that's not going to be right for every community consultant. You might not want to host those spaces. You might just want to get into the weeds and do the work. And so I think, um, you know, just for that part [00:20:00] of the question you were asking about, like, as a consultant.
[00:20:01] Carrie: Well, I don't think all consultants need to do that. But that is our, that is our unique thing that we bring to the table. Is like, we're not just going to create a strategy for you. We're going to figure out the underlying problems that explain why you haven't had a strategy up to this point, and also going to figure out the problems that are going to stop you from implementing this strategy because they're almost always leadership problems.
[00:20:22] Carrie: And those leadership problems must get resolved through conversation. So that's. That's just to say that that's like my unique approach to that and not everyone must do that. If you're enticed by that work, um, if that sounds really interesting to you, then, um, in terms of like how we do it, I think there's a couple of things and they're, they're all community principles really.
[00:20:42] Carrie: Um, one of them is making the. Purpose and values of our gatherings together really clear from the beginning and repeating them every time we meet. So whenever I kick off a client engagement, we go over like, here's what we're here to do. [00:21:00] Here's what we're not here to do what we will not do for you and what we will not do together.
[00:21:04] Carrie: Here are our, we have a couple principles that we talk about. One of them is. The principle of unconditional positive regard, which is something I learned from a facilitator named Adam kahane. Um, and it's this idea that no matter what you bring to me, I don't care what it is. I'm always going to assume the best from you.
[00:21:24] Carrie: Even if that brings up things for me, we're going to work through it together. I believe that we can do this. So we established that from the very, very, very beginning. Um, I used to talk about radical candor as the thing that we did, which is like. This idea that we care about each other personally, but we challenge each other directly, but I think radical candor can often come off as like.
[00:21:43] Carrie: There's almost an impatience about it. Like I must tell you all the things that I'm not happy about right now or whatever. Um, whereas I think unconditional positive regard is like, well, I am going to still give you feedback where I think it will help you, but I'm only going to do so. Because I [00:22:00] believe that you can take this in and do good with it.
[00:22:04] Carrie: So anyway, I just, that's one of the things that we talk about. Another one is, um, oops, ouch, whoa, which is another facilitation technique. So, um, we tell people, you know, if. At any point during any of our meetings, you can say, oops, ouch, or whoa, if things are going sideways. So oops, I didn't mean to say that, or, you know, I I'd like to take that back, whatever it might be.
[00:22:23] Carrie: Ouch is like something someone else said hurt me, or like I'm having a reaction to it. I'm feeling defensive. And then whoa, is we need to slow down and talk about this thing. So these are just two of the kinds of things that we tell our clients. And then at the beginning of all of our sessions, we always do check ins.
[00:22:41] Carrie: We do like the traffic light, red, green. Um, kind of thing and we model the honest sharing there. So it's like, you know, I'm, I'm currently seven and a half months pregnant right now. So like, I'm having trouble breathing even though this conversation. And so like, I'll say, you know, like. I'm having trouble breathing today.
[00:22:58] Carrie: You know, so if you notice that I'm like [00:23:00] trying to catch my breath. That's why. Um, but here are the things I'm feeling green about and all that. So anyway, um, those structures are all really important, um, in the meetings. And then, um, yeah, being brave enough to bring up and call out things that you're noticing.
[00:23:13] Carrie: So when I work with leadership teams. I'm often just listening to them talk to each other and then I'll notice something and say, you know, I'm noticing some resistance there, or I'm seeing a look on your face, you know, Andy or whatever. Um, you look really stressed out by this conversation. Can we stop for a moment and talk about that?
[00:23:30] Carrie: So I'm just, I'm in this mode of listening. 90% of the time, instead of telling people what to do, um, which can be frustrating because I want to tell people what to do a lot, but that's not how things get done. Um, and that's a big lesson for me, um, from the last nine years, like. You can't just tell people what to do.
[00:23:49] Carrie: They won't do it. They will not do it. They've got to come to their own realizations about it. So anyway, to answer your question, I think those are some of the structures that we've put in place,[00:24:00] um, in the spaces, the principles of the spaces that I
[00:24:02] Cesar: hold. I love that. So you said the ground rules from the beginning.
[00:24:05] Cesar: Yeah. Right. And that sets a tone for the rest of the engagement.
[00:24:11] Carrie: Um, we set them, not the client. We set them.
[00:24:14] Cesar: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, what you said there about helping the clients come to their own conclusion. I think that's so important, right? Because I'm the same way too. Like I want to tell people what to do. I know, right.
[00:24:26] Cesar: Because I have experience living in a community, like, I know you need this.
[00:24:30] Carrie: Yeah, totally. They're like, no, I don't get it.
[00:24:34] Cesar: But what you said there about they have to come to their own conclusions because, you know, there's all, there are all these underlying, um, emotions, right. Or challenges that you might not be aware of.
[00:24:45] Cesar: Yup. And yeah, you know, that's like. I guess going beyond the tactical advice is always important. Yeah. Now, is there any difference that they've noticed, you know, working with let's say [00:25:00] solopreneurs, creators and big enterprises? Why are some of the I guess differences if, if any, when it comes to the community,
[00:25:10] Carrie: there's so many, um, and it's as a business owner, I'm like, I think I need to pick a lane eventually, but I'm, I'm not, I like both groups so much.
[00:25:19] Carrie: I would say the biggest difference is that, uh, large organizations get caught up in bureaucracy and, uh, there's a lot more buy in that's needed. And then working with solopreneurs and founders and why I really like to do this is because they move really fast and they're able to implement right away.
[00:25:35] Carrie: And then they can immediately say, this is how I'm feeling about that. The thing that I implemented versus, uh, in a corporation, they might be like, I feel like they're really, really well, but we're waiting on the data analysis. Um, and we're having trouble with bi and like a business intelligence and connecting our system.
[00:25:49] Carrie: So I actually don't know if it was successful or not. And my boss is telling me he needs the data or she needs the data. Um, and, uh, I don't know if this is working or not. And so you'll spin wheels for weeks at a [00:26:00] time. Um, but once something is implemented, the impact tends to be like, you know, you work with a company that serves a hundred million people having a huge, huge impact.
[00:26:09] Carrie: So that's really satisfying, but it does take a long time. Um, And that's, you know, one of the principles of community building is that it happens in human time. We have to be patient with it. Um, it's if, if you want quick results, stick to your ad marketing, um, if you want long term sustainable results and relationships that will get you through the hardest times in your business and life, then, then build community.
[00:26:31] Carrie: But, uh, if you're really impatient with that, it's not going to work out.
[00:26:35] Cesar: Yeah, I think that's why I gravitate towards, uh, working with entrepreneurs, creators, things move quicker. Uh, and with enterprises, right? It's a, uh, not just, not just slower, but also I feel like community suffers a lot because they want to see the ROI like immediately.
[00:26:52] Cesar: It takes a little bit of time to, to build community, right? Uh, and sometimes they, they may have a different [00:27:00] objective than the revenue. Or profit one, right? So, um, yeah, thanks for sharing your insights there. I wanted, I wanted to touch on, you know, 2023 has been an interesting year, right? With the burnout, uh, job insecurity, layoffs, um, and all the uncertainty, right?
[00:27:16] Cesar: That has accumulated. Yeah, and I want to get your perspective on how to navigate the difficult conversations that might come up, you know, especially when you are managing a community or even for yourself, right? What advice would you have for other community managers out there?
[00:27:35] Carrie: Yeah, when you say difficult conversations, like with, with who?
[00:27:38] Cesar: So difficult conversations within that community, right? Like maybe people are sharing, Hey, I'm burned out or Hey, you know, I got laid off or whatever might come up right in that in a specific community.
[00:27:52] Carrie: Yeah, yeah. I mean I run a community of community managers for the accelerator program and I think it's really, really important that we have [00:28:00] spaces to talk about.
[00:28:02] Carrie: And have those conversations. Um, they'll sometimes come up organically in like a online community forum kind of thing, but oftentimes we need to actually actively create the space for them. So for, for, um, for me, what that looks like is. We hold space for those conversations. And we have every other week we meet live and we often end up talking about emotional stuff, not about the actual work of community building.
[00:28:27] Carrie: Um, although that is the actual work in my opinion. Um, or like we need to actively elicit that kind of sharing saying, you know, like, what are your biggest challenges right now? What are you struggling with? Um, And, and so yeah, there needs to be a space for it versus it just being a free for all because, um, anxiety and well actually all emotions are contagious and they're contagious digitally to, um, there's been social science research that explores this concept and emotions can be passed digitally.
[00:28:56] Carrie: So if you have a community where everyone's just. Saying, um, you know, say you're like a [00:29:00] job search community and everyone's like, I give up, this is too hard, like all that it's going to affect everyone else in the community. So that's why you need a container for it. So it doesn't affect the culture of the space.
[00:29:12] Carrie: It doesn't spread like a virus. Um, and, uh, Yeah. So, so we need that in terms of like holding that space. Um, I think one of the, this is probably very obvious to anyone that's looked at like nonviolent communication or like worked on a relationship of any kind in their life. It's like, We just need to listen.
[00:29:30] Carrie: People often aren't looking for advice. And so we need to be clear, like when someone is sharing something really vulnerable, if they don't say it to me explicitly, like I want advice or I want to be listened to, I will often ask them, like, do you want advice on this problem? Or do you want to just dig into it more and like explore it further?
[00:29:49] Carrie: So during our live calls, for example, you know, somebody came one week and was like, I am, I think I'm just an anxious person. And this job is like, Really provoking [00:30:00] my anxiety. I don't know if there's any path forward for me. Oh my God. And I've had these thoughts too. Um, and so, you know, I'm like, I, I, I stepped back and said, you know, do you want tactical advice here from the group?
[00:30:12] Carrie: Or do you, let's just, or we can just explore this. And, um, you know, she was like, okay, let's, let's start exploring it. And so instead I went into my coaching mode, um, cause I've, I've taken some formal coaching training through co active training Institute and, um, just asked her a lot of questions about this.
[00:30:26] Carrie: Like how, how, why do you feel or not? Why, why questions are not powerful questions. It's more like, um. What are you feeling in your body when you're feeling that anxiety, or when was the last time you did not feel anxious? Did it have anything to do with work? Um, and yeah, just getting clarity on the problem itself is so much more powerful than just being like, go take a vacation, go outside, hug a tree.
[00:30:50] Carrie: Um, and, and, uh, you know, at the end of like closing off that space, because When you share vulnerably like that, you can actually have like a, what's often termed like a vulnerability hangover, um, which you [00:31:00] may or may not have experienced at some point. I definitely have. I'm like, I think I overshared. You start questioning, like, should I have shared all that?
[00:31:05] Carrie: Yeah. Um, so I usually just like, I. Profusely thank anybody who's willing to, to go that deep. And like just last week, for example, I was like, let's all do a virtual hug for this one person. And we're going to hold them in our, in our thoughts this coming week. So I think it's really important to close that off and make sure people know and are validated for sharing those hard things.
[00:31:26] Carrie: So,
[00:31:26] Cesar: yeah. Couple things that come up there. your opinion on virtual space versus a physical space? Um, do you think, yeah, what's, what's your take in terms of the community effect? Do you think they're the same or do you think there's a difference between the two?
[00:31:41] Carrie: Yeah. So, I mean, this is not my feelings, social science.
[00:31:44] Carrie: Um, I've done a lot of research on this. It was actually like what I kind of studied in, in my master's program that I'm finally graduating from on Sunday. Thank you. Um, neither is better nor worse. And, and, uh, um, simplistically looking at it that way is not going to be helpful for anybody. Um, What [00:32:00] it depends on is like, who are you gathering?
[00:32:02] Carrie: Um, if, if you're gathering people who are geographically dispersed, obviously virtual is going to be an amazing option for you. Thank goodness we have that. If you're, if you're gathering people who are, you know, feel socially anxious, who are oftentimes like different, um, uh, Let's just say like neurodivergent broadly.
[00:32:18] Carrie: This isn't true for all neurodivergent folks, but a lot of them feel better in online spaces. Folks with, um, you know, who have apprehension around how they communicate things like that. Um, as well as if you gather around a topic that is really sensitive or, um, just. Like not secretive. I don't care. The word isn't coming to me, but like sensitive topics, these are often better, uh, held in virtual spaces.
[00:32:36] Carrie: Um, for a variety of reasons, we can control our physical environment during those times we can take breaks if we need to. Um, there's not as many cues happening, so it can be easier. I mean, if you're doing a video gathering, this is not. It's less true, but, um, versus in person there's like distractions going on and like noises.
[00:32:55] Carrie: And you're trying to take in like the context of [00:33:00] someone's entire physical being. It's a lot. So, um, so yeah, but, but it does take longer to build up that trust virtually. There's been studies on that. It takes longer. So you need more sessions. You need to make sure that you're consistent and all that versus in person.
[00:33:12] Carrie: I think what's really powerful about in person is, well, one, our bodies. Physically react to it. So we sync up like our heartbeats and all that much faster when we are in person. It still happens virtually, by the way. Um, so that happens. Um, and, uh, this sort of sense of, um, Serendipity is much more likely to occur in a space that's physical, like side conversations can happen and, and all that.
[00:33:38] Carrie: So you can emulate some of that by having, like keeping the chat on during your zoom gatherings or whatever else it might be. Um, so I don't, neither is better nor worse. I enjoy stewarding both of them. We have to start with purpose versus as Priya Parker talks about in her book, the art of gathering. So start with purpose first, and then we can look at.
[00:33:57] Carrie: Is this better served virtually or are we going to [00:34:00] be better served by an in person gathering?
[00:34:03] Cesar: I love that. So not, you know, one is not better than the other one. It's just different purposes, different dynamics, but they both can serve.
[00:34:10] Carrie: Yep. And especially like as more folks come online and, uh, the next generation is like starting to enter the workforce and all that.
[00:34:20] Carrie: They don't see a line between physical and digital. Those two things are not necessarily like separate for them. The, the digital is a enabler for the physical. Um, so they're not, we need both. We need a hybrid approach to what we do.
[00:34:34] Cesar: I love that. I want one last question here. Um, and then I want to try a rapid fire round with you.
[00:34:34] Cesar: Okay. To wrap up the episode. But what do you, what do you see? What do you think is the future of the community profession? You know, what are some of the trends that you're curious about? And where do you see community as a profession going?
[00:34:43] Carrie: Big question. Um, I mean, it's, it's, it's growing. It is for sure growing.
[00:34:47] Carrie: Um, it expanded quite a lot. During the pandemic. And now we're seeing some, it's still growing overall is what I'm seeing, but there's shrinking happening in the immediate term. And I actually heard one person [00:35:00] who became a community builder during the pandemic say, like, I joined this because I wanted to be on the hype train on the bandwagon.
[00:35:07] Carrie: And now I'm not sure if it's right. And I'm like, well, honor that, you know, so I think we're going to, we have already seen that happening in the short term, especially with, um, more artificial intelligence, um, affecting all of our work, um, and, uh, downsizing happening in a lot of companies, the need for skilled people, people is only going to grow over time.
[00:35:29] Carrie: Now I've always believed that community managers are future CEOs. Like if you can build relationships with, with, um, customers and communicate really effectively and all that, like you will be an incredible CEO. So I think the community skillset needs to broaden out. From again, like that tactical stuff to this more like leadership focus, because our community skills also can be applied internally at our organization so that we can actually become, um, you know, leaders across the entire company.
[00:35:59] Carrie: Now the word [00:36:00] community, I'm not so sure about it within the business context. I don't, I don't know if it's the word that we should continue with, frankly, um, because it's so it's, it has limited us. 100% has limited us in our impact and influence within for profit organizations, specifically in,
[00:36:17] Cesar: in, in what ways has
[00:36:19] Carrie: it's sort of like, I mean, even the term like social media, especially executives, when they hear like social media or community, they think, oh, somebody who's.
[00:36:27] Carrie: Just like straight out of college. You can do that really well. Um, unfortunately, unfortunately. Yeah. Cause it's not true. Um, and, uh, it's not true at all, but what's interesting is that like CEOs will throw around these terms of community connection collaboration. Those are all things that we community managers create and enable, but they often don't, they're not thinking that the community manager is the one that does those things.
[00:36:51] Carrie: Paradoxically, it's like, it's like HR and their social impact, um, arms of their companies and all that. So there's a huge disconnect between what they think [00:37:00] community managers do and then what we're actually capable of. Um, if that makes sense. And so yeah, I don't know if the title like, I don't know if it's so much of what we do is about transformation work.
[00:37:11] Carrie: It's about, um, engagement from a, in a really, really broad sense. Um, it's about strategy, um, business strategy. So I don't know if we'll get folded into. Like another department or whatever else that might look like, or if we'll have to have to come up with a new concept. Um, but if you look at other industries, like design and innovation, um, or not industry professions, they've done a fantastic job of showing the value of their work and like, now there's chief innovation officers at companies and, uh, chief, uh, you know, design folks get paid a lot of money to do what they do.
[00:37:46] Carrie: Um, when they're very good at it. So like. I just, I've been doing this now for, you know, almost 10 years and I have not seen community able to break through that, um, and get the respect that it needs and deserves. I just haven't. And it's not from lack of trying. I know [00:38:00] we're all trying really hard. So I'm just like, I don't know what the answer to that is.
[00:38:05] Carrie: Um, but, uh, you know, maybe it is just an issue of like, as, as we 00. Continue to age and all that and move up the ranks and organizations. Maybe it will finally get the respect that it deserves, but I'm not. I'm not convinced myself. Yeah,
[00:38:19] Cesar: yeah, no, me neither. In the community space also for a little bit. Um, and, uh, yeah, I feel the same.
[00:38:26] Cesar: I share the same sentiment. It's, it's not, uh, it's not where we want it to be, unfortunately, because executives, leaders, CEOs, especially in B2B, they have all their priorities, you know, revenue, profit, shareholder, value, um, and community, right? It's, uh, it's like they idealize community, But as we both know, it takes time to build a really engaged community.
[00:38:51] Cesar: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that doesn't align with, with their priorities.
[00:38:56] Carrie: Yeah. Or they, they don't even know how to connect it. Um, because it does, [00:39:00] it can connect to all of the things you mentioned that are important, like revenue generation and, and all that. But, um, a lot of us don't know how to connect it, um, to even educate them about that.
[00:39:08] Carrie: Which is why I teach the accelerator. Um, and, uh, a lot of us. A lot of them have no idea how it's connected. And so they just assume, oh, that's the fluffy thing that we do. And unfortunately, during this like pullback, a lot of corporations, a lot of community managers have lost their jobs. It's really
[00:39:25] Cesar: hard.
[00:39:26] Cesar: It's going through a lot of change, but you know, similar to you, I'm, I'm betting on human connections, human relationship, especially as AI, all this technology state, um, uh, take place, uh, cause yeah, community. And human connection. I think that's at the core of everything that we do. Yeah. So hopefully that's my bed.
[00:39:46] Carrie: Yeah. Same. I'm with you.
[00:39:47] Cesar: Awesome. Okay. Well, I want to try this fun exercise that I call rapid fire round where to wrap up the episode. Basically, I'll ask you a question and you just give me a top of mind answer. Yeah. Ready?
[00:39:57] Carrie: Yes, I'm ready. Let's go.
[00:39:59] Cesar: Awesome. So one, [00:40:00] one book that had a profound impact on your life.
[00:40:03] Carrie: Um, so many, but, uh, Adrian Marie Brown's emergent strategy is probably one of the most impactful from a community perspective.
[00:40:10] Cesar: Awesome. I'm sure to link it up in the show notes. Um, over the last year, uh, any investments that you've made that has had a profound impact on you? And when I say investments, it could be something like financial, uh, physical thing, a relationship.
[00:40:25] Carrie: Mm. Oh my gosh. Um, I sign up for courses all the time. I'm like, which one has been the most impactful. I don't know. Um, I've been doing, uh, my, my partner and I, cause we're expecting a child. We've been doing, um, the Gottman institutes, uh, bringing home baby workshop, um, which is not just about baby. It's really not about baby care at all, but it's actually about, um, strengthening your relationship.
[00:40:46] Carrie: And, uh, obviously that's. Yeah. If not the most important relationship in my life, certainly in the top three. So having that strengthened strengthens everything else. So I'll go with Gottman Institute. Love their resources. Also very helpful for all [00:41:00] community builders, whether you're looking at your own relationship or other people's.
[00:41:04] Carrie: I want to check it
[00:41:05] Cesar: out. Yeah. Um, is there a, uh, oh, next question. Is there a quote that you think of often or perhaps your life model that you live your life by?
[00:41:14] Carrie: The one that comes to mind for me, and this has been echoing in my head for a long time is, um, from Shakespeare, um, nothing is either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so, um, comes to me all the time.
[00:41:25] Carrie: So just all experiences are neutral. We. Give them meaning good or bad. We get to decide how we react.
[00:41:34] Cesar: I love that. I think about that often too. Yeah. So pretty cool that you also have that. Um, or our next question, um, in the last year, any habit that you have implemented that has improved your, your life,
[00:41:49] Carrie: I'll say prenatal yoga.
[00:41:52] Carrie: Um, I've added that in, um, you know, a couple months ago and, uh, You basically barely move at all, which is my preference.
[00:41:58] Cesar: I second that [00:42:00] my, my wife did prenatal yoga, uh, when first, and she, she's doing it with her, with her. And it's good, uh, from the exercise and movement perspective, but also from the community side as well.
[00:42:10] Cesar: Right. Cause you, you get to connect with other moms and, uh, especially doing this. Yes. Uh, intense
[00:42:15] Carrie: times. Yeah. Yeah. We get to commiserate and, um, you know, complain about our aches and pains at the beginning of each yoga session. It's like, what hurts?
[00:42:23] Cesar: Yeah, absolutely. Um, but, uh, last question and then we'll, we'll wrap it up.
[00:42:28] Cesar: Um, what do you find the most fulfilling about the work you do?
[00:42:31] Carrie: I would say the, um, depth of conversations and relationships that I get to form with everyone that I work with. Um, it's just so rewarding. Um, I feel like my clients, they're not just clients. They're like, we ended up becoming friends and staying in touch and all that. And, um, we're all just like, I'll randomly send, you know, like thoughts to former clients or students or whatever.
[00:42:57] Carrie: Um, and they'll send me kind notes all the time. So just like [00:43:00] that kindness in exchange, that's always happening in my world is, is really lovely. And I think I can take it for granted sometimes, but a lot of people don't hear that kind of stuff often, but we're all softies.
[00:43:12] Cesar: We
[00:43:12] Carrie: all have our soft spot. Yeah.
[00:43:14] Carrie: Yeah. We share gratitude a lot. I think community managers are really good at sharing gratitude openly. Um, With other people. So yeah.
[00:43:22] Cesar: Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the things that I love and admire about your work is that, you know, it's, it's, it's, you show your personality through work. You're honest, transparent, you value relationships, and you just don't talk about it.
[00:43:35] Cesar: Like you actually follow your, your advice. Right. And ai Transcribed by
[00:43:39] Carrie: https:
[00:43:41] Cesar: otter. ai I don't know. There's a lot of fake stuff out there. Um, so thank you for, for, for bringing your authentic self, uh, into this. My privilege. Awesome. Well, uh, to wrap up the episode, what would be your number one takeaway, uh, for other community management professionals [00:44:00] as it relates to building their, their career?
[00:44:04] Carrie: Um, one takeaway. So I would say, you know, patience and grace toward yourself on this journey. Um, it's going to take you on a winding course if you let it. Um, and if you really feel compelled by the work to stick with it, even though things are. Like right now are particularly difficult. Um, they will get better.
[00:44:22] Carrie: They will absolutely get better. Um, and that's not work that you have to hold alone. So find other community managers. If you don't already have a group of community manager friends, you know, um, you can meet them through programs like. Like the ones that we offer, you can meet them through Facebook and there's a bunch of Facebook groups and things like that.
[00:44:40] Carrie: Um, you having a posse of people around you is really, really crucial. So communities or community builders need their own communities as well to explore all this.
[00:44:50] Cesar: Okay. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing. bit of a journey into community and, um, where, where can people find you? That what's the best way to reach out to you?
[00:44:59] Cesar: Uh, and [00:45:00] yeah, become part of the community.
[00:45:02] Carrie: Yeah. So I'm probably most active on Instagram at Carrie Melissa Jones, but you can also find me on LinkedIn with that same. Uh, he was username, um, or my website, carry most of jones. com. If you'd like to reach out that way, I can be emailed.
[00:45:16] Cesar: Awesome. Thanks so much, Carrie.
[00:45:17] Cesar: And, uh, yeah, you know, looking forward to perhaps doing a update once baby comes, you know, after baby comes.
[00:45:23] Carrie: Thanks so much. This is really fun.
[00:45:25] Cesar: all right. I hope you enjoyed this episode and thank you so much for listening all the way through. I appreciate you. And I hope that you get some valuable information that you can apply to our personal and professional life. If this story resonated with you and you would like to support the podcast.
[00:45:49] Cesar: Please make sure to subscribe. So you don't miss out on any future episodes. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I appreciate you. And I look forward to serving you in the next [00:46:00] episode.
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