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Do Good Work is not a label but a way of living.
It is the constant and diligent effort to achieve a new level of excellence in one’s own life.
It is the hidden inner beauty behind the struggle to achieve excellence.
It is not perfect but imperfect.
It is the effort, discipline and focus that often goes unnoticed.
The goal of this podcast is to highlight that drive.
The guests I have on this show emulate this drive in their own special way. You’ll be able to apply new ideas into your own life by learning from them.
We will also have 1on1 episodes with me where we’ll dive into my own experiences with entrepreneurship and leadership.
Every episode is designed to provide you with ideas that you can apply and grow in excellence in all areas of your life, business and career.
Do Good Work,
Raul
INTRO
Today I'm joined by Phil Berry,
founder and CEO of Northwind Health,
which he's bootstrapped for almost
18 years now into a company that's
just over 100 people and is going up
against four and five hundred billion
dollar incumbents that structurally
cannot do what his company can.
We dive into his focus on human
flourishing and how it influences
everything from his business model to
value creation, to how he leads, and
how he views purpose and fulfillment
at the company, which he'll admit
wasn't always there, especially
in the first five years where he
was just running on survival mode.
We also get into Phil's journey
going from a bootstrapped company
from just him to nearly one hundred
million dollars in revenue, where we
dive into the principles and mindset
shifts he's underwent to make the leap
Including where Phil separated his
identity from the business to be able to
ask an even greater question of what is
the business itself called to do, which
has led to the high growth adventure
he's on now, and he's not slowing down.
Now let's get to it
Raul: Yeah, I think one of the things
that is most interesting, and if you've
seen these posts online or if you've seen
this line of thinking, is that there's a
certain mindset, and I'll give you frames
of what the categories we'll look at.
But there's certain mindsets
that we have when we're starting.
You know, for, uhâ¦
'Cause a lot of the listeners
here run their own company.
They're, they're bootstrapped,
or they might have some partners
that they're working with.
But then also your mindset of today.
So I wanna kinda compare and contrast of,
like, Phil starting, Phil growing, going
through the tough seasons, and probably,
like, there's ups and downs all the
time, but then also where you're at now.
And I think we look at different
areas, like your views on hiring when
you were starting, your views on,
like, survival when you were starting,
the views of meaning for a business,
and then how do you make a plan for
the future or hope for the future?
And I would like to l- I'd love
to compare, like, then and now
under those same umbrellas: people,
survival, meaning, and future
Phil Berry: are good ones.
That's a great way to frame it.
Uh, the seasons, right?
Um, I've been at it now for
almost 18 years, and I've,
I've seen a few seasons in it.
Interestingly, in, in starting,
uh, Northwind, you know, it was
really, um, about getting in
the game, about getting started,
about getting kind of independent.
And, um, you know, from the people
perspective, uh, I had come out of,
um, other environments where, um,
I'd watch, uh, I'd watched headcount
grow, I'd watched payrolls grow.
Um, I watched the impact of a lot
of those things in organizations
that weren't outgrowing that
or were carrying a lot of that.
So I, I was pretty scared of people
early on in the sense of feeling like
I needed to do a lot more with less.
And, um, and when you're in
survival mode, uh, uh, people
feels like a, a tremendous luxury.
And so we, when we started, it
was really, uh, one employee.
Um, I may have added, one or two
others in the first five years or so,
but I tried to keep that really lean.
Even, even when, uh, like my key
kind of right hand went on vacation
or something, it was really kind of
like, "All right, I'll, I'll beâ¦
I'll cover and I'll do the things."
uh, and that was, that was actually,
um, a little bit of a security blanket
and just my own fear of outrunning
my, my ability to, to support.
Um, but, but it was also a
sense of, um Thinking that I,
I'm not sure how to apply that.
What, what leverage does it give?
What does it create, uh,
additional in the business?
And, um, and so I was the kinda the
chief sales guy, and so early on it was
all about how do I get more revenue?
How do I, how do I grow beyond the one or
Raul: Mm-hmm.
Phil Berry: things I need to do?
And, um, that changed, uh, over time
as I hit various walls and also came
to a point in my own journey where
I realized wasn't as interesting.
wasn't as, it wasn't as fun.
It wasn't,
Raul: Mm.
Phil Berry: There, there was
something missing in that, in kind
of bringing an organization along.
And relative to kinda where we are today,
um, we're, we're just over the 100-person
mark, and, um, and I'm, I'm a, I'm a
Raul: Nice
Phil Berry: of the curve kinda guy
now, and it's, it's what do we need
to open that next, um, that no- that
next world, the next window, if you
will, in terms of either skill set,
Raul: Mm.
Phil Berry: Uh, I don't, I don't get
real close to a lot of our, um, you
know, more of our boots on the ground,
you know, in our, our warehouse and our
logistics and our pharmacy and so forth.
But in terms of our leadership and
our management team, uh, it's always
very exciting when we have new, new
positions open and new opportunities
that we need to fill based on skill
set, location, or something we're doing.
So the people side has evolved,
evolved a lot over the years.
Um, within that you also asked about
surviv- or was it survival or meaning or
what were the, what were the three again?
Raul: Yeah, so survival meaningâ¦
'Cause these, these play in a role like,
and, and I'll frame this too, 'cause
I've-- I'm not sure where exactly or w-
w- what time or if it was another pod,
but like I could, I could relate to
some of the things that you were saying,
and like think a lot of entrepreneurs
like you're in the grind, you're
going through it, and you're like,
"And is this even the right thing?"
Or you realize, and I had these
realizations, and it sucks, and I
don't have missing teeth, but I've
been kicked in the teeth business-wise.
It's like, you're not as
great as you think you are.
And it's so humbling, and it's
also like, dang, I really doâ¦
Do I really suck that much?
And I wanted to bring that up because
I think it's, it's good to hear
another perspective, especially for
listeners out there of like how it is.
Do you find meaning in the
company or in the work that you
do, or does the meaning find you?
I know that's very esoteric, butâ¦
And as well as how do you manage that?
Like what- whatever you define
the meaning to be for the company,
how do you lead with that?
How do you move with that also knowing
that, hey, you might not be as great
as we think we are, and continually,
in your case here, you just highlighted
100 people, you know, the revenue
that you're doing, continually
moving forward and making progress,
and I think that's the key, that,
that you're consistent over time.
So that's, that's the framing around it.
Phil Berry: gosh, the meaning
thing, what a journey that's been.
I, I'll, I'll open that by talking
about what you, what you just said
right after that, the humbling.
Um, you know, the, the 18 years
has been a persistent journey
of, of, of humbling, if you will.
And, and I mean that in the sense
of not, not groveling, not how do
I, you know, oh, I'm not this or I'm
not that, but really realizing with
sincerity that I, I don't have it all.
I don't, I don't have the answers.
I can't do every, every job.
Um, I can't solve every problem.
I don't have the perfect vision.
All, all the things that
come, come along with that.
And there's actually a
great freedom in that.
Um, early on I thought I
needed all the answers.
Um, there's days where I still feel that
way, but particularly early on when it
was, was just me, um, and I was tr- I
was searching for the right model, the
right vision for it, the right meaning
to it, um, uh, it, it was, it was a
journey of realizing, um, or feeling
like I needed to, to be all these things.
And I, I had gone independent.
I was, I was in a business.
I had my name on a, on a sign and
a phone number that pointed to it.
Um, maybe, maybe something
on Google Maps or something
that had Northwind, uh, on it.
But, um, but I realized, um, or I thought
that I needed to kinda solve all that.
And in the early days of meaning
really, um, we're, we're, we're really
just about the, the sur- survival.
I wa- I wasn't, I wasn't sea-
searching for meaning in it.
Well, let me qualify that.
I, I didn't, I didn't see a pathway
to some sort of meaning in it.
Um, the, the, the first five years were
covering the bases, uh, getting it go-
keeping it going, uh, paying the bills,
and it was really kinda after that that we
started to kinda look with more intention.
Um, but I, I didn't see
it in terms of meaning.
And, and the meaning came, um,
really, um, in a later fashion when I
started to see places where the work
we were doing was impacting people.
And then I started seeing the
places where I had employees who
were, who were doing, um, who were
moving through their own lives.
I, I, I can remember, um, I can remember
an employee who came to me after
she'd bought her first car and she was
celebrating this and, um- I thought
I, I, I kind of participated in that.
It was like a win for me.
I, I thought I was, I
was kind of part of that.
And, um, and, and that started to
kind of shift my thoughts around the
people side, part of what I'm doing
i- in, in Northwind, part of the
mission is those who, who it serves.
My, myâ¦
Part of my stakeholders are my employees.
Um, and then, and then what it can
do for their lives, and that, that
started to bring more meaning to me.
But, but it really wasn't until we
started seeing, um, impact at kind of
scale, where you, where you started
watching the services affect hundreds
of people, um, uh, in a, in a very
real way, where we could actually,
Raul: In a real way, yeah
Phil Berry: I started to see
a lot of meaning in that.
And itâ¦
And I'm, I'm a man of faith.
Uh, my Catholic lens is, is
very much on all these things.
And when I started to see that work
in health the people working in it for
us who derived their joy from it, and
then it line up with, um, a lot of the
things that are, that are really central
to our faith and, and how we see human
beings, um, then it was kind of like
meaning explosion, uh, in terms of, of
seeing the purpose in what we're doing
Raul: I wanna, uh, th-there's a few
things there that you mentioned, and
one of them is how did you personally
change your leadership through that?
'Cause it's
an evolution.
Was this all over the five
years, or are we looking at
now, like, a f- 10-year track?
Phil Berry: you know, the getting
out of the five-year mode was
really kind of s- sitting down.
I went to a, umâ¦
I was invited to participate in a, a
program called 10,000 Small Businesses.
It was a Goldman Sachs program.
I don't know if you've heard
Raul: Okay
Phil Berry: of this.
Um, and they would run cohorts, and
the idea was originally, uh, how to
create economic development in sort
of underserved areas and, and with
small business and kinda teach them
how to be better businesspeople.
And I, um, I had a lot, um, I had a
lot of experience coming into that,
the thing that it really did for me
was, was not teach me how to write a
business plan or, or, uh, you know, what
should you think about marketing orâ¦
You know, I, I'd done a lot of these
things and knew the basics of it, but
it, it really forced me to answer the
question, where are you taking this?
What, what, what is it, you knowâ¦
W- what are you moving it towards?
And that's when I kinda shifted
out of the survival mode where I
started realizing, wait a minute,
w- I, I'm in a pattern ofâ¦
I'm in a habit of survival.
What should it be doing, and,
and then what does that mean?
And, um, it was really almost like
an overnight shift in my mindset.
I, I, I put out real goals.
Uh, I started thinking about
the steps to get there.
Um, I had, um, I had kind of crossed the
threshold in the business where, where
it wasn't real clear what the best market
was, and we had backed our way into, uh,
what we now call self-funded employers,
uh, in the healthcare space and, and an
avenue to serve those in a more B2B way,
which is kinda what my background was.
And the things started kinda
lining up where it made sense.
And then it was, okay, what,
what do you do to pursue that?
And my leadership dramatically
changed because all of a sudden
I realized I just put something
out there with some intention.
Can I do it?
How do I do it?
And what's it gonna take to, to do that?
And I actually started, umâ¦
That's when we hired the, started really
kinda hiring the first few people, I
would say, at a higher level in terms of,
uh, more, more leadership and, and more,
more strategic, and taking the gamble
on, on trying to get our flywheel going
with the, with those people, with, with
their skills, their capabilities beyond
what I could do on, on any given day.
And, um, once you start to see some of
that work and a few of the gambles pay
off a little bit and, and, um, the places
Raul: Mm-hmm.
Phil Berry: where, where I faltered,
uh, weren't, weren't fatal, then,
then I got a little bit more confident
with that and started to trust a
lot more that, okay, we- we're,
we're moving in the right direction.
And, uh, and then we just kinda
kept taking that next right step.
Raul: There's, there's a tension
in there 'cause-- And I loved it
'cause I was actually gonna ask that.
It was, what, what was the mindset or
the, the trigger for you to start thinking
big versus, hey, I'm just gonna be in
survival mode, which we can be perpetually
stuck in or addicted to, I'm not sure.
Um, and then from there, what
changed it for being big?
For you, it was like, hey,
there's-- What are you actuallyâ¦
It was a question of like, why are
you actually doing this, or what's
the bigger plan we see the future.
We see the future.
It doesn't exist yet.
There's potentiality for its existence.
For us to hit that future, we have
to walk, uh, it's like, uh, if you've
ever seen Indiana Jones and, like,
they're walking through that, that
corridor where it's invisible, but,
like, it's like, it-- it's like
you're walking on, like, the stone
thing that looks like it's invisible.
But you're, you're, you're taking these
acts, like you're taking investments or
like, excuse me, you're investing into the
business, you're investing into people.
You don't know if they're gonna pay off.
That's the risk.
There is a tension there.
How much do you believe in the
future that you're building?
How much belief do you
have to bring that to life?
Also, stripping away from survival mode,
which kind of has you clinging back
to, like, safety or like, let's just
go back here 'cause it's comfortable.
How did you navigate that?
Phil Berry: Uh, gosh, you know, you could
go all sorts of directions with that.
I think, I think the thing that reallyâ¦
I kinda got in that mindset
of saying it's, it, we need,
this needs to do something.
W- it's, it's, got purpose to it.
Um, part of my thinking on that was
surviving a couple of what I would call
miraculous, falter- faltering, failings,
um, where we, we probably should've been
Raul: Hmm.
Phil Berry: Um, I should've been put
out of business, and I saw, I saw
something miraculous in that in the
sense of a, a combination of things that
came together that really suggested,
"Okay, this one isn't just about me.
It's got something that's beyond me."
Um, and it's also not, n- not
about my own, own ambitions.
And so I, I really adopted that time,
and I'd always kinda used the term, be a
good steward was a part of our ethos, if
you will, in terms of, using the gifts
in the right way, to be fruitful in it.
But, but I kinda went on, um, that,
I kinda had be a good steward on
steroids sort of thinking, which was
have this, w- I have a responsibility.
What can it do?
And, um, it, that, that became
a real motivator for me.
And the, the first, first
Raul: There's a poll
Phil Berry: we, we, where I put a, a
sort of a line in the sand or threw a
dart in the sand, if you will, was like,
I think the number was like $7 million.
I came out of that program
and I thought, "All right.
My, my growth plan is I'm gonna hit
million in whatever it was, five
years or, or some, some period of
time," where it was like, "All right.
Here's, here's intention."
And we were probably, I don't know,
we were under, we were probably
sub 2 million at the time, um, as
I'm, I'm thinking back on that.
And, and so I, I just put it out
there and I, I said, "All right.
We're gonna walk towards this and
here's the plan and, and the different
things and, and maybe that's, that's
what we're supposed to do and that
feels like the right direction."
And something in just saying
we're gonna go do that- Uh, it, it
kind of, it just kind of lit it.
Just, it just lit it.
So, so then, then it becomes
this intentional thing.
We actually hit it sooner.
Um, we actually were a year early
on the number, and I thought,
I mean, why not 100 million?
or whatever, what-
whatever the number was.
And, and I can remember, I had read
a, I read a book by Grant Cardone,
um, 10X I think was the name of
his book, and he's, you know,
he's all, you know, it's all this.
It's like hardcore, all this stuff.
But something that really resonated me,
with me was, was, was kind of the why not?
Why, why, why not?
There wasn't anything magical
about aiming for 10 million or
50 million or, or a billion.
It, it's, you can pick
any number you want.
And, and I, I, I've never had, and
I still don't have some magic sort
of exit, like at this point I will
have arrived or I can, I can go buy
islands or whatever it is people do.
It,
Raul: Mm-hmm.
Phil Berry: that's, it- it's
just not ever been about that.
And so then when you, you get
past that, you start saying,
"Well, what is it about?"
what, what, what is it about?
And it was really in that process
where I put, put these silly
numbers out there that I, I didn't
have anybody to report them to.
My, my wife actually didn't, you know,
she wasn't drawn to $100 million or, orâ¦
was just like,
Raul: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah
Phil Berry: doing our thing?
I want you to be happy, and is
that really what we wanna do?"
And, and actually, she actually
asked the question is, "Why?
What is it?
What, what is that?"
And, and my answer at the time was always
kinda like I, "Because I think we can."
Because I, I think, I think
that is, I think more means
we're doing more good work.
And what I came to find along the
way was there was an alignment.
It wasn't about just the revenue,
but, but the, the scaling
meant more lives, more souls.
And um,
Raul: Ja
Phil Berry: it, that gave it real,
real meaning and real substance.
And, and so it really wasn't about
how do I get to some number, um It
Raul: Arbitrary number just to arrive
Phil Berry: can it?
Should it?
Is this what it's called to do?
And, and when you start to see, uh,
things kind of cooperate or align
towards that in, in sometimes magical
ways, uh, sometimes intentional, but
sometimes also, um, some mystical if
you will, then you start to think,
"Okay, maybe this is on the right path."
And, and even sometimes today, Raul,
it still feels like the stones across
the river, the, the next stone is a
little hard to see, um, because we're
still moving in a direction even
though we've got all this structure.
But we've also, over the last seven
years, we've added a new line of
business almost every 18 months,
meaning something that's a significant
Raul: Wow
Phil Berry: additional, uh,
piece of business that we weren't
in the business of before.
And th- that's kind of brought
together like four major, uh, pieces of
business that are, that are standalone
kind of industries if you were.
I mean, whole companies just
live in them, and we've kind
of gone horizontal with them.
And part of that is because the sense
is, is this is where we, we are able
to move, uh, the dial the most for
the people that we're trying to serve.
So that is a, um, that, that's been a
real revelation to me as I've kind of,
uh, put it out there, walked toward it,
and then watched things sort of unfold
as we problems along the way with that.
But it very much changed my idea about
growth and, and what the purpose of
what we're doing really is, the meaning
of our work and, and why we're here.
Raul: I'm gonna ask a series of questions,
and th- they might be weird, but I'llâ¦
they'll connect at the end.
In the beginning was Phil the business?
Phil Berry: Well, Phil cer- certainly
thought he was the business.
Um, it was, it was
Raul: Okay
Phil Berry: Phil, um, in many
ways around that, in my own mind.
Um, you know, what, what do I do?
What do I think?
What do I want?
Um, why won't people buy from me?
You know, it was very much those things.
And, um, I was probably seven or
seven years in before I really
kinda got the message kinda
between the eyes that it, itâ¦
Phil's not the bus- it's not about Phil.
And, uh, and I still
wrestle with that some days.
I, I still wrestle with,
"Well, isn't it about me?
Can it be about me a little bit?"
Um, but it's really the
recognition that it's really not.
So yes, it, it was very much I was the
Raul: I appreciate the honesty
Phil Berry: I was the business early on
Raul: I, I appreciate the honesty 'cause,
'cause you, you mentioned a few things
and that was the underlying question
that I had for it is you, you stripâ¦
So one of the things I-- The first book
I wrote, Productive Profits, the first
chapter is literally called The Call To.
Literally.
Because, you know, we talk about what
do I want, what do I wanna do, and
I think that's the wrong question.
The question is, like,
the, the call to question.
Um, but I haven't heard it in a way where
you said, what is this business called to?
Like a separation of you from this other
entity and seeing what this collective
group or this thing or this idea called
a corporation or a company can do.
And Iâ¦
That was pretty interesting to me that
I'm gonna actually chew on that as well.
But what is this thing called to do
separate from you, the person, and
how you stripped away from being
the business in the beginning.
So that's why I wanted you to,
Phil Berry: That's
Raul: to kind of shed some light on that.
Phil Berry: insight.
Raul: that
Phil Berry: is actuallyâ¦
I've never thought about it that
way, but that's a great insight
Raul: Yeah, 'cause the way that you're
talking about it, that you stripped it
there, and then you saw that this, um,
obviously for it to flourish, its purpose
is to serve as many people possible.
So yeah, growth is, is a natural
b- um, like, uh, requirement of it.
Like, it has to be.
Like, there's, there's no
way that you can do it.
Um, I'm curious though, 'cause I
know I've, I've read the 10X stuff
and I've seen all these, uh, uhâ¦
And I think it's good or bad.
And this isn't, uh, to make a
judgment call on what you'll
say or what's gonna happen, but
I'd love your perspective on it.
Is growth always the right answer though?
Phil Berry: it's not.
Um, you know, my, my ideas around
growth were w- it was, uh, raw
ambition, uh, my sense of success,
my sense of, you know, look at me.
And, and even, even probably many
times when I, when I said, "Don'tâ¦
Uh, no, no, it's not about
me," or something, uh, I'm
still, I'm still hungry for it.
You know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a hard charger.
I wanna see it go.
Um, you know, the r- theâ¦
I move along, the, the question I
find myself frequently asking now,
uh, about that, um, and as in we
continue to grow because, um, 'cause
there's a certain surrender in that.
I, I don't have to hit a magical number.
Um, I'm actually, uh, the business is fun.
Uh, I like what I do.
Raul: Mm-hmm.
Phil Berry: Iâ¦
It's, it's in a good place.
And, um, uh, uh, the question I keep
asking is, is the one you just hit on,
which is what is it supposed to do?
And th- there's, there's only one
place where I offer that up, and
that's something that, that comes to
me, and I, I ask in my prayer time
around what, what is it supposed to do?
And I actually, I actually, in
within that, I also ask the question,
what should I be doing for it?
And, um, this has actually been a
big question for me over the last
few years as the, the notion of what,
what a uh, what this, you know, this
kinda title, this seat really means.
And, and I, and I frequently
look at it that way.
What, is it that as I occupy the
seat of CEO that I should be doing?
What should I be focused on?
What are the things that,
serve the mission broadly?
And sometimes that's also a hard look
at, at what, uh, what's best for me
to be doing, best Phil, for Phil to be
doing in his own capabilities and his
own experience, and what's best for
other members of my team, or something
that I, that we may be missing.
And I, I actually ask that question
because, um, I, I, I still recognize
and, and I, I'm, I'm happy to admit
that I don't have all the answers.
And, uh, and that I, I value a
greatly, um, talented people who,
who have different inputs and,
and it makes it more interesting.
So it's an, it's a necessity.
And I think the journey has been
part of getting me to a place where
I can actually, uh, kinda look at
that honestly and say, "Yeah, Iâ¦
Yes, it, that, that's not something,
that's not a place I should be or
that's not something I should be doing."
Not because I'm, I should be sitting in
an ivory tower, but I'm literally just not
the right person, uh, to be doing that.
Raul: Yeah, the skill sets, the
competencies, the humility for that.
It still sounds like there's a tension
though, 'cause like usually-- So you'll
talk to founders and, and depending on
the industry or the changes, and we'll
talk about your industry and some of
the things that you're doing as well.
But in some industries, change
is happening so fast that theyâ¦
there's no three-year vision.
It's just like, "Hey, I gotta
keep up with what's going on,"
like with, with tech or whatever.
Um, I still so- it still sounds
like there is, so there, there is
an overarching, like, vision of what
I'm hearing, but there's still that
tension, 'cause there's a kind of,
uh, two components that I'm seeing.
The tension of we don't know what
that future exactly looks like, but
we're gonna go in this direction
'cause this is where I think
we're, we're called to, to walk in.
But the second is, and this was
interesting that you said, like you
haven't arrived, and I like that a lot.
So it's like, it's just
like a perpetual thing.
It's like a consistency.
Like you waking up early,
it's just who you are.
That's like a part of you.
So you growing a company is
just part of who you are.
It's like a consistency thing.
Like, uh, like I have a banana tree in the
backyard I had to actually excavate it.
But the banana tree, no matter what I did,
it would still sprout like eight little
babies, and it would k- keep growing.
That's its thing.
My banana tree likes to take down,
uh, walls and continue to grow.
So maybe that's, that's,
that's Phil there.
But you haven't arrived,
so is there likeâ¦
There's that tension of like having a
concrete three-year, five-year, 10-year
plan versus an openness of like, "Here's
the direction we're gonna walk in."
And you're playingâ¦
It sounds like you're playing like
an, an infinite game to use Simon
Sinek's ga- uh, uh, nomenclature.
Is that the approach that I'm hearing?
'Cause, uh, 'cause there, there's
also like, "Oh, I need a plan.
Like, I need to know what
I'm doing in the next year.
I need to know exactlyâ¦"
We want certainty.
The tension between
certainty and uncertainty.
Phil Berry: exit?"
I mean, it's, it's like, uh,
all, I mean, all the time, like
that's the, like the secret, "And
what's your, what's your exit?
What's your exit?
What's your exit?"
And,
Raul: your, what's your,
what's your thing for, yeah?
Phil Berry: to other, um, to peers
of mine who, who kind of, um,
anguish about that a bit, you know?
Uh, you know, I got like, I've
gotta come up with an answer for it.
And I think going back to that tension
you just described, I, I love the, the
imagery in my mind of the both and.
Um, and, and the more I go in this, the
further I get in this, the furtherâ¦
And I don't always wanna sit in
it, but frankly, the tension,
when it's in the tension, I know
I'm kind of in the right place.
Um, when I, when I'm
out of it and I'm in the
Um, I'm probably, I probably got
a little bit of sloth going on.
I'm probably, I'm probably kinda
sitting back and, and maybe, maybe
surveying the landscape and appreciating
a little bit of the flowers and,
uh, enjoying the wine or something.
Maybe, maybe it's a little too much.
And if I'm on the other side
and I'm, I'm, I'm not sleeping
or there's anxiety, there'sâ¦
Then I also know I've, I've, I've
tipped in a different direction.
So comfortable with a little bit
of discomfort, a little bit of
tension has, has been a, an ongoing
formational thing for me, and maybe
that's a form of carrying your cross.
I don't, I don't think it's in a suffering
way, but it's, it is something that is,
you gotta have to kind of press into.
But you, you talk about the, the
tension of, uh, and this is the both
and I was thinking of, is that, is
the, is the what is it supposed to do?
And then what is it I can see through
my human eyes, through my conscience,
uh, through my own intellect, through
my own surveying of things and
experience, what makes sense based on our
capabilities and the logical side of that?
And what, one of the things I've had
to struggle with is my impatience
with things I can see and the
organization kind of catching up to it.
That's been part of this last five years.
I've kind of thrown things out there,
and then there's this, you gotta
wait for the machine to kind ofâ¦
I can't move the PT boat
like I could 12 years ago.
I just said, "This way,"
and we just turned.
And so now it's like, "All
right, this is what we're doing.
We're gonna take this hill."
And everybody kind of looks at me and
they're like, "Is this a good idea?
Do we agree?
Do we, is this the right thing?"
And, and then, and then the machine
kinda kicks in, and then I just kinda
have to get out of the way and let it.
And then I wake up a little bit
later and I'm like, "All right.
We just, we just did that,
and what's the next thing?"
And, and as I, we've moved through
healthcare, it's so messed up,
so illogical, it's so frustrating
Raul: I was
Phil Berry: there's just an endless
number of things to go chase.
And so we've moved across the, the
functional areas of, of, of kind
of a health plan, one at a time.
We've gone horizontal with the
idea of how we, how do we do this
differently, 'cause I don't wanna be
just one more of these things that
everybody kinda hates right now.
then, and then do you, what
do you look for beyond that?
And it's been exciting to kinda
get to each place and then have
another thing kind of emerge.
You're like, "That looks
like the next right thing."
then it'sâ¦
These are like 12 or 18
months sort of, targets.
And, and
Raul: Initiative.
Yeah.
Phil Berry: not so much in a revenue
sense, but, in a value sense.
And, um, this kind of was one
of the, the key parts of the
probably years ago when we kindaâ¦
11 years, we kinda started
moving with intention.
I, I, I realized in our particular
business that at the time we were a
generic drug distributor, which was
an incredibly kinda lame business
in my mind in terms of likeâ¦
And it was small, and it wasâ¦
But I used to go into groups and, and
to convince them to, to buy our, our
product, and I, I would discount, I
would, you know, I would almost g-
And, and I came to realize I could give
this away and they weren't gonna move.
And it was a real, real interesting
discovery because the, the bucket of
dollars that was spent on these products
we were selling was so small that I think
the groups literally, If I'd said, get
it for free," I think they would have
because it wasn't worth the disruption
on the other things they were doing.
And so from there it became
what, so what does matter?
And chasing bigger dollars, bigger value
dollars was part of the first part.
How do I get to branded drugs?
How do I get to specialty products?
How do Iâ¦
And then what's happening on the health
plan side, the dollars get even bigger.
so as we follow those
Raul: Mm.
Phil Berry: then, then the value
part, which the value comes in, is
how do you either, how do you either
remove some dollars on that or how
do you help people get more for that?
And what, what I kind of figured
Raul: Mm-hmm.
Phil Berry: is the big, the
thesis, so don't tell any PEs.
I don't want them taking my thesis.
But the thesis is, is that if I can
actually turn those dollars into something
that looks more like an investment
and show what it does, in the context
of human flourishing, which I think
is an economic nuclear bomb, uh, I,
Raul: the benefit of the people, yeah
Phil Berry: ultimate answer.
And so, so I've got this crazy idea.
We just keep walking towards
that, and if God says, "You're
done," I will say, "Okay."
And, um, if he says, "No, you, you've
got more souls who you can help to a
better place, and maybe, maybe it will,
it will cause some other good things to
happen," I will, I will be faithful in
that, um, to the extent that I'm able.
And that's, that's just as simply as
I see it today, and, um, I feel like
that is both good stewardship, uh, and,
and also the, the right discernment
on kinda where we are and what we have
and what we're supposed to be doing.
Raul: Yeah, help-
helping better the lives.
Let's, let's talk about the outcomes
in a segment just to, to reflect
on that, what you just mentioned.
Um, number one, uh, when everyone
asks, "What's your exit?"
It's like the lazy question.
That sounds like a lazy PE question.
It's like, okay, did you, like,
lack imagination by asking that?
Um, but I think the other key
thing is also, like, asking,
like, "Why are you working out?
Why do you work out?
Why do you grow the company?
Why do you do this thing?"
Well, I mean, 'cause it's good
and it, it's part of the thing.
So, like, different ways to
answer that question, but I,
I li- I like that approach.
The, umâ¦
So that's really interesting.
So you're, you're focused a lot on
outcomes from, from what I'm seeing,
from what I'm reading, and also with,
like, the, the, the nice research we did.
It's called sick care.
It's not really healthcare right now,
but you're kind of making it into s-
into healthcare, and you're repositioning
to like, "Hey, it's actually an
investment," which it legitimately is,
and there's all the ways that you can
do that with like different, different
benefits and, and I understand that.
But I'm curious, how are you reallyâ¦
And you mentioned it on values.
The company isn't just going to, "Oh,
we're gonna do this 'cause it's a
bigger contract or a bigger thing," but
it's alignment with the mission or the
company values, what the company needs
to move into, also the value that you'd
give to the actual end person who can
actually become healthier, not worse off.
How do you-- I mean, you're, you're facing
a Goliath with like the broken system.
Why, why that direction?
Why-- what do you see differently
versus like the big players?
And, um, yeah, how, how
are you attacking that?
Phil Berry: couple, couple things
around, like you, you just threw a lot
of stuff into that, so we'll, we'll
kind of unpack a little bit of those.
So,
Raul: I know.
Phil Berry: um, which is
Raul: I tend to do that, yeah
Phil Berry: And I think,
I think you're spot on.
it is, it is sick care.
I mean, healthcare is, is sick care.
And the tr- the truth is, is,
is there's really nobody besides
us who pay for it, um, that's
incented to watch the cost go down.
I mean, the, the system makes
more by having more cost in it.
The ultimate only answer to reducing
the cost having healthier people.
um, and so our, our simple
attitude is, okay, what doâ¦
what can we do to
influence healthier people?
'Cause if they're notâ¦
If they're healthier, then they're
not consuming the sick care.
Now, I can't, I can't change cancer.
I haven't solvedâ¦
We haven't solved for that.
There's things that happen that youâ¦
accidents, um, that, that just occur, and
that's, just one of the facts of life.
But, but there's a big chunk
of cost in chronic conditions.
Uh, and if you just name just diabetes
and, and weight, obesity itself, um,
there's a, there's a lifetime worth
of problems to be solved within that.
Um, and we've watched as GLP-1s
have just gone crazy out there.
So the idea that you can actually help
people avoid con- consuming unnecessary
healthcare is, is not science fiction.
You can do it.
The reason the big guys
can't is one They're huge.
I mean, every one of them, a
$400 or $500 billion company
is like 100, 200 companies.
It's, it's, it's justâ¦
And for them to bring a- all
that power and capability to the
service of one individual is,
is just very, very, very hard.
They're built to move big chunks
of bodies, and transactions,
and contracts, and all that.
And so, uh, first of all, we can.
So we can go in and we can take, we
can serve the individuals and, and
worry and a- and accompany them a s- a
stage of life to a, to a better place.
So we know we can do that.
Our big test right now is can,
can we actually do that at scale?
And that's what we're
ki- we're kinda working
Raul: Mm-hmm.
Phil Berry: in the
pockets that we're doing.
And, and that's the big gamble, is can
we actually scale the service, the high,
the white glove service, the high touch,
the care, the concern, the culture that
enables someone to get to a better place.
But the other side is you also have to
have the systems and the processes and
the muscle to manage the transactions.
And, and the good news for us is
we've kind of evolved into a, to an,
I would say, a, an integrator, and
we can use pieces of things out there
and rework them, repurpose them in
many ways, networks or technology
or, or, or accessing hospitals.
Um, all of them can be reimagined and
realigned to, to be more efficient.
And so our, our basic model is on the
front side, I just remove a bunch of
waste and in places where there's some
abuse, I can usually find cost savings.
And then I invest my clinical talents
Raul: Mm-hmm.
Phil Berry: how do we find the people
that are the sickest first, get them to a
better place, and then how do we find the
other people who need help navigating the
complexity or access points or just the
cost barriers, um, which is all kind of
plan, design, and support sort of things.
And it sounds simple as I sit there
and tell you, which it's not simple.
Um, but to, to take that and
operationalize it and ways and then just
follow it up with the human touch, it, it
takes a lot of money and a lot of time.
And, um, but it's doable.
And so that's why we feel like
it's, it's the place we should be.
We've seen it work, and we know the big
guys can't remove, first of all, they
can't remove the big cost out because th-
their, their shareholders won't let them
Raul: That's their cushion.
That's their cushion.
Yeah, that's, they need it
Phil Berry: because
it's, they've been great.
They've been very, very profitable.
As businesses, they're case
studies in wild success of
roll-ups and I mean, whyâ¦
Yeah, it's great.
But, but you can't, you can't
unroll that, um, without being
massive consequences to it.
And part of it is just fat that just
needs to be pulled out of the system,
and it's not gonna happen by choice.
It's gonna happen by competition.
People like to see the government do it
or say they could, but the government
can't either because the government
actually the same infrastructure
to run all the government programs.
There's no, there's no unpacking it there.
There's too much, there's
just too many of these.
So it's gonna take, it's gonna take
guys, uh, like me, like organizations
like Northwind chipping away at the
edges and taking our, 100, 200, $500
million little pieces of it off the
table and helping, helping run it better.
That's kinda what our
approach is generally.
Raul: Sounds like you're really
focused on the individual, though.
Like it's a key core center
focus on that one person
Phil Berry: You know, the, one of
the fun things for me, and I'm a,
I'm kind of a new guy to some of the,
the lingo that I've, that I've, that,
that Ca- Catholicism has given me.
But, um, this notion of, of human
dignity and what that really means, both
in terms of, of how I see the other,
but, but also how I see myself and the
responsibility of, of my own dignity.
Um, it's kind of been a game
changer for me personally in
how, how we approach the people.
So when ⦠So there's the human being
that I'm actually serving in a health
way, there's also a set of human beings
in that client have a responsibility
for the dollars and the employees.
th- they've got, they've got a
certain set of needs that are
It's not an easy job.
And then there's the human beings that
are, that work in my organization that
pack things and make phone calls and, and
deal with members and patients and others,
and their, their value derived from that.
And, and you start to look at this kind
of ecosystem, the dominion that we serve,
and all of them are, are like lights.
They're points of light in this
continuum, and those are opportunities
to help them to a better place.
It just seems like a, a huge and
beautiful sort of opportunity.
And if, if you can see what you're doing
line up into that and, and ⦠You know,
you asked me before we signed up, before
we did this, you a- one of the questions
you asked me was, like, a life-changing
moment for me a- along some of the
journey, and one of the, one, and there's
been many, but one of them was, was
sitting and talking to a member of one
of our programs, literally talk, I mean,
crying, talking about the change in his
life around managing his disease, being
able to walk around the block, being able
to play with his children, thinking that
he might be alive for his grandchildren.
this was a person who had lost hope.
Um, just, had lost
Raul: It was amazing
Phil Berry: and certainly there are
great stories out there, but, but it
was, it was one of the first times
that I actually saw all the things we'd
done in, in, into that one individual
all kind of conduced to that moment,
and I realized that that's right.
It's about moving that one place
the, to the best of our ability.
And we didn't, we didn't
solve his problem.
We just gave some options, and
supported along the way, and helped
his employer a, put a program together
that, that actually fostered that.
And, um, I thought that, that makes, um,
that makes it all worthwhile actually.
That really kind of brings it
together in a way that, that all
my 10X-ing, all my, you know, oh,
this would be great if we could grow
this fast, or all the ambition Uh,
Raul: Mm-hmm.
Phil Berry: just seemed kind of pale and,
and lifeless next to that sort of thing.
And it's, it's something
I remind myself often.
And we c- we try to keep the
testimonials in front and center,
and we share them in our town halls
because such a connect to purpose.
It just really is.
And we're not running
hospitals, so I'm notâ¦
I don't have an we're, you know, we're
rushing people, uh, you know, to surgery.
And so we're not, we're
not in that business.
Um, but our stuff is touching so
many people that, uh, to get the
feedback on where it hits and how
it hits is, is really profound
Raul: It's powerful.
I'm gonna close with one question, and
feel free if it-- to, to skip it if, if,
if it's not the right question for now.
But I had Taylor Black on the pod, and he
mentioned that whatever service or product
we produce, we have to define what a
human is, either implicitly or explicitly.
And I, I was at, like, a, a group
at, at Napa, and we were chatting
about, like, have you defined
what a human is at your company?
For Northwind, how do you defined--
how do you define a human?
Phil Berry: I love it.
Our, umâ¦
So I was actually talking about
this with my wife recently i-in,
in a roundabout sort of way.
Um, one of the crass, um, expressions
in our industry, and, and I- we don't
use it, um, it's not one that's in
our vernacular, but I've heard it used
before behind doors, is they use the
term belly buttons, um, talking aboutâ¦
It's like butts in seats
or, you know, it's theâ¦
it's a, it's a way
of colloquial- colloquially
identifying a human being.
And, um, and then if you move up, move
it up a little bit, we talk lives.
How many lives served, how manyâ¦
And, um, a reflection recently, it
came to me that these were souls.
these were souls, and, uh, that,
that has a special weight to it.
I think of C.S.
Lewis, who talks about in The Great
Divorce, the, the moving closer to
heaven, everything is more substantial.
It's heavier, it's solid, it'sâ¦
And the further away we are, we're,
we're light and, and less, uh, we just
don't have as much substance to us.
And I, and I thought of that same
way, and I think, I think the AI
thing is an interesting thing because
it's interesting on many levels, and
I, I actually wanna go back and, and
listen to some more of your podcast.
I saw the Taylor Black, um, interview,
and I think it's very powerful.
He's, he's got such aâ¦
It was a great conversation.
Raul: He's fun.
He's so much fun.
Phil Berry: it's very, it's, it's
very s- it's very simple for me.
G-God, um, God gave us, uh, his divine
spark, um, and that comes in the form of
a soul, uh, comes in form of a reflection
of him, and, uh, it has dignity with it.
And, um, I think that, um, we go
down the A-AI path, and I've seen
a lot of writing about this on the
frontier, about sentience and intellect
and awareness and whatever else.
But, but we're
Raul: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah
Phil Berry: as much as we keep wanting
to make ourselves God, um, there's
still only one source, and, um,
that's the fundamental difference.
Until, um, I, I guess, and maybe even
then, um, when we start manufacturing
human beings in the sense of body
and flesh and whatever, um, th-
there'll be another question in it.
But I, I, my simple answer is,
is these are, these are the souls
that are in front of me, uh, who
have God-given dignity because he's
put his divine spark within them.
Raul: I think that's a really powerful
view in how you're leading the company,
and obviously it's, it's making an
impact, but I also am hopeful that you
continue to scale even further than what
your ambitions are right now, 'cause
it's, it's interesting to see how your,
your dynamic deep thought is able to
actually make a significant difference.
And I've b- I mean, I grew up in finance.
That was my first career before all this.
And yeah, it's not, uh, it's
not belly buttons, but it
is this person's worth this.
They're a number.
They're a number on a spreadsheet.
So I think looking beyond that and being
able to see what's the bigger picture, and
it's obviously served you very, very well.
So I think that's a lesson that all
of us can take as we move forward.
But Phil, for our listeners out there,
where can people go to thank you for
being on and also learn more about you?
Phil Berry: phil.barrynorthwindhealth.com
and you feel free to e- email me
at phil.barry@northwindhealth.com.
I appreciate the chance, Raul.
It's very nice to have the conversation
with you and dive into some of this.
A lot of fun