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For too long, career services has been an afterthought. Now it's time for career services to be in the driver's seat, leading institutional strategy around career readiness. Join us every other Tuesday for in-depth interviews with today’s most innovative career leaders about how they’re building a campus culture of career readiness… or what we call Career Everywhere.
Joretta Nelson:
You are part of the student success leadership at your institution, and it is critical for you to have the full student success strategy in mind when you go forward and represent with any of these cabinet members. Sometimes I will meet folks who come from, let's say, the Teaching and Learning Center, or from the Student Advising Center or from a career leader, and they're coming into the conversation almost at their own unit level. And I want to strongly recommend that when you walk into any conversation that you talk about the data related to student success. Here's why students stay at our institution. Here's the measures that we use. Here are the other five strategies that we're working on this year collectively together. And this work I am doing in career development or career curriculum development is a part of the solution to help make that work. Tie yourself into student success. Meredith, I just have to say, I don't think we're going to make it if we don't tie our work together.
Meredith Metsker:
Hey everyone, welcome back to The Career Everywhere Podcast. I'm your host, Meredith Metsker, and today I am joined by Joretta Nelson, vice Chairman at Credo, which is now a part of the Carnegie family. Before starting at Credo in 2008, Joretta worked in higher ed for 25 years, first as a music faculty member and later as a VP for enrollment management. And if I'm not mistaken, Joretta your specialty as a faculty member was renaissance choral music, right?
Joretta Nelson:
Well, I would say it was absolutely one of my passions and I spent a lot of time conducting that. But I would also add that I am a true believer in the power of choral music. So if you're out there and you love to sing, get together with someone else and sing in community is what I'd say.
Meredith Metsker:
I love that. I feel like I need to hear that because I also love to sing. I was in jazz choir in college and I miss singing with other people or just anywhere outside of my car. But yeah, I remember you mentioning the renaissance choral music thing at the Career Everywhere conference last month, and a lot of folks in the audience perked up at that. It's always fun to hear the unique backgrounds and career paths of our guests here on the podcast. And interestingly, we've actually had several musicians lately. So yeah, I don't know if you know this about Rebekah Paré, who I think you spoke with at the conference, but she is a jazz piano player.
Joretta Nelson:
Actually, we did spend a little bit of time chatting and we were both amazed at how in the world did that formal training and all of those years of experience land us both in this place where we're doing work to help higher education think differently about itself. It was like, what is that trajectory? I don't know. But yeah, and also a delightful person, but we did share some of that too.
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah, that's funny. We should study that correlation sometime. But anyway, you were a fan favorite at the conference. I think it was Josh Domitrovich from Penn West who said on the second day that he wished he could bottle up your energy and use it whenever he needed a pep talk. Everyone was in agreement. So I knew I needed to have you on the podcast so our audience can experience the Joretta magic as well. So welcome to the podcast Joretta and thank you for being here.
Joretta Nelson:
Well, I think I said that day as well that I had found my tribe when I was there because the folks who were in attendance that day, and I think as well, Meredith, based on what you've told me, the people who might be listening to this podcast, we just all see ourselves as deeply wanting to help students be successful and get this value proposition really lived out. I was able to be a part of the event itself, and by the time I got to the stage for that event, I thought, I want to stay and I just want to hang with these folks who are so dedicated. So I'm just delighted to be here today. Thanks for inviting me.
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. I am really glad to have you and I'm excited to talk to you today about how career services can align to institutional priorities and get in front of senior leaders. So this has been a bit of a Career Everywhere theme over the last few months here on the podcast, at the conference and in the Career Everywhere digital community. We've talked with career services leaders, enrollment and admissions leaders, and even some senior leaders like President Rodney Rogers at Bowling Green was on a few months ago and everyone agrees that career services needs a seat at the table. They need to be involved in institutional strategy and they need to be on the radar of cabinet level leaders. But it can be hard to know where to start or specifically how to position career services as that strategic partner and then how to tailor your communications depending on which senior leader you're talking to, what their priorities are, what their stressors are. So I am really excited to dig into this with you today Joretta. I know you have a ton of great experience working with executive leaders in higher ed and you just have a good pulse on what's most important to them. But before I get into my questions, is there anything else you would like to add about yourself, your background or your role there at Credo?
Joretta Nelson:
I do think maybe for our audience it would help a little bit to know exactly how I got here. We were mentioning earlier that both Rebekah and I had an interesting journey, but I have had the privilege of working at the faculty side and I feel like that's an important vantage point. It gives me a perspective. It's having almost like lived internationally and you have a very iconic perspective. So that is where I was always convinced that everyone who walked up to the admission table must really want to study renaissance choral music. And of course I learned pretty quickly that wasn't true. And I moved from the faculty seat into enrollment management, which is a story in and of itself, perhaps for a different day, but it certainly opened up my eyes to the art and science of recruiting. And quite frankly, I just was overwhelmed by that. I really didn't know.
Now in music, not unlike athletics, we've always had to go out and find our students and so I had some knowledge and awareness of that. But I didn't really know about the industry level nor about what institutions faced. As I did that I recognized I didn't really know much about higher ed. So after all my years of training as a musician, I went back and got a PhD in higher ed. And when I did that, I really did it to study the student success literature. I couldn't quite figure that out. I had my own experiences of teaching and my own experiences of trying to apply that, but I really didn't have the background that I needed to speak into what could the institution do to position itself to really help our students be more successful? So that gave me a chance to come to Credo and help found the work that we are doing in student success. We've been doing that for 30 years, but our work at Credo has always been around the institution's responsibility and structure. High impact practices and the research around those, including career development and our career ecosystem as we like to call it, those things really matter.
But man, it's hard to get the institution to pay attention to that and to do that at this executive level. So it was really a joy to go back and look at that, think about that and serve in that way at the Credo level. And so I designed some programs and some ways we think about working with presidents and cabinets and boards and helped us do that. In February of this year after Credo had been around for 30 years, we were honored to become a part of the family of Carnegie and what a perfect marriage it has been and will be going forward to serve our partners. It's our desire to be able to help a partner find the solutions they need in every way. Data technology, but also in strategy related to the student experience. So it's been a great partnership thus far. And I find myself at this part of the journey saying let's be champions everybody about student success no matter your position around the table. So I think that's what we're going to talk about a little bit today.
Meredith Metsker:
Yes. It is. And we are going to continue with that table metaphor for sure. Yeah. So before I get into the more specific topic-based questions, I do want to kick us off with a question I ask all of our guests here on the podcast, and that's what does Career Everywhere mean to you?
Joretta Nelson:
I have to say, I had to ask myself that question before I came to the conference. And as well to get to know Uconnect really well and to about what's taking place in the field and in the industry as well. So Meredith, I just got to say, when I think about it embedded everywhere, just to be literal, I go back to what I learned about why students stay and that early research, and it's still lived out post COVID is students stay when we meet their goals, when promises made or promises kept. And continuously, we're just seeing day to day that students are saying, "My number one reason to go is ..." Fill in the blank. It's some direct connection to what I want to do as soon as I finish. And while that's always existed to some degree now, it has this very literal translation to it, and it starts so much earlier. It just seems like if I as a student ... What we're learning is if I don't see it soon, then the value doesn't seem apparent to me or to my family of support or to my experience. And I question the value of the experience itself. So there's both a literal definition of what it means to have career support, and it's how long I'm willing to wait on that and the proof I want to see.
So knowing that, then I think we have to move away from thinking about the work we do in career from something that's added into the student experience to really designed through the student experience. I think we have to say it really is a part of the curriculum. And I can say that, and you and I chatted about that in advance. But getting the campus to think about that is what I think is really the challenge as we think about it. So short answer Career Everywhere, that really is the designed experience in higher education is that we take the responsibility to apprentice you into the career that you're going to take. And that means we've designed the experience for you to do that. And that's why I think we really have to think about how does the cabinet itself get that picture of what we mean by Career Everywhere versus just a unit that provides some sort of an experience for students. What do you think?
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. Yeah, well said. No, I love that. And I'm really glad we're going to dig into that, how to communicate and even influence the cabinet level leaders. A lot of the strategies you talk about on the podcast, which is still great, is more bottom up. More grassroots stuff, more specific tactics within career services or with admissions and enrollment. But sometimes you need the big dogs on board. You need the cabinet level leaders. Again, I'm really excited to dig into that topic with you today about how career leaders can really align to those institutional priorities and get in front of those senior leaders.
And going back to our table metaphor earlier, I think what would be helpful for the audience is to just go around this metaphorical leadership table. Who are the cabinet level leaders sitting there? What are their priorities? What do their day-to-day schedules look like? What's keeping them up at night? And then once we've learned more about these folks, we can dig into how career leaders can use that context to best partner with them and just go in with a little more empathy and understanding.
Joretta Nelson:
That topic came up when I was at the conference. The idea of how do you position yourself as a leader in career development, career ecosystem? How do you position yourself as an institutional leader versus as a unit defender or advocate? I feel that way about many of our high impact practices across the board. Sometimes I'll run into people who are talking about, gosh, we have living learning communities, and that's vital to the student experience. And I think, yes, that is, but in order to make this an institutional priority, got to get institutional perspective. And so my word today is how do you get yourself thinking about what the institution is navigating and what each of those people are navigating? I don't know if this is wrong, Meredith to say, but how can you be politically sort of savvy in helping each of those leaders solve for their own problems? Which by the way is the problem of the value proposition for the student and the outcomes of the experience. But they come at it from different responsibility.
So who's at the table? Tables are different, and sometimes titles, depending on the institution we might have a president versus a chancellor or a vice versa, but we're always talking about our president, then we're going to be talking about a chief academic officer of some sort, the C.A.O, a chief student affairs individual. Or we're even seeing some titles in that work now being called Chief Student Experience or Chief Student Success. It's emerging. And then the chief enrollment officer ... And I think my colleague Jonathan Wehner from Carnegie will be part of a podcast that folks can have heard or will hear and he speaks to that role as well. And then I think another one for us to consider today is the advancement officer, the person who's got those responsibilities for the fundraising and the friend raising of the institution.
I do want to say Meredith, there are often other people at the table on a regular basis and they play a really big role. So we could talk about those as a second wave when you think about institutional effectiveness, which I think could be a really great partner. And I also think about the CFO as one of the partners that our colleagues who are listening today could think about. But I think you and I were thinking about really president, chief academic officer, chief student affairs officer, maybe that advancement person today as well.
Meredith Metsker:
Yes. For sure. And I'm glad you mentioned Jonathan. By the time this episode comes out, he will have been the prior episode. Yeah. So for folks who are looking for a really in-depth conversation on working with that chief enrollment officer, I encourage you to go check out Jonathan's episode. He was very generous. He let me really get in his head. I was like, "Jonathan, what kept you up at night when you were head of enrollment?" And he got very vulnerable and I appreciated that.
Joretta Nelson:
I'm going to talk about that if I get to talk a little bit about what keeps me awake at night. It's leaders being vulnerable. So I'm loving that Jonathan modeled that for you too.
Meredith Metsker:
Yes. Yes. He did. Okay, Joretta. So all right. We're at our table Le let's start at the top with the president. I think generally we all know that they lead the university, but on a day-to-day basis, what does that look like and what should career leaders know about what a president is often dealing with?
Joretta Nelson:
Yeah. I just want you to put your empathy hats on right now everyone. Just truly. I'm going to say this about everyone at the table, but particularly about the president and the chief academic officer. These positions are open right now and really hard to fill and we all know they're taking a lot of hits in the industry and the field right now. So first of all, just be considerate that the individuals who have agreed to take these leadership roles need all of our support. So I just say that with a great deal of respect for them. But the president comes into a meeting maybe with you as a career leader, and I do want you to know that they've likely already been in front of the Chamber of Commerce or some version of that, some local or regional representation. They have absolutely been on a call late night or early morning with the board chair. We find more and more that board chairs and presidents are in almost daily contact these days because of all the things they're facing. So remember you all, I'm going to say this a couple of times, the board is the boss of the president. So we always think about our presidents as really the ultimate end. And when you think about that president, remember, he or she is looking to please and is hired by and it has to please the board as well. So they've done that.
Most assuredly they've talked about something related to finance on a daily basis. So that's either the CFO sending the numbers, that's a question about the numbers. There's something involved in the financial side of things. They've had some interaction on a daily basis these days with a parent. Oh, yeah. Even at some of our biggest institutions, the kinds of issues that we're facing are getting themselves all the way to the table. That can be something that's in the paper or on TikTok or a phone call, et cetera. But our presidents and chancellors are seeing how families are responding to what's taking place with students on a regular basis. So again, I'm going to say all of that can be back to back to back to back. There's always going to be some a connection to a donor in the life of a president and that's either getting ready for an ask as we say in the advancement world or it's following up or it's building some sort of connection in that regard.
And then remember, there's also going to be the president's responsibility of managing his or her team. And so those are the one-on-one meetings they're having with the rest of the cabinet members and navigating that. And then I just have to tell you, the amount of email and the amount of requests for them to be at a schedule means that they are on a daily basis usually going over with administrative support help or chief operating officers, where do I spend my time? What's the best use of my time as we go forward? And that happens on a daily basis.
Last thing I'll say about the president is the president really works from a schedule in the academic year. There's the constant underneath, but there's also what's next. And that what's next is often census state when we really know what the budgets are really like or where we are in the budget, board meetings. And those occur at very key points in the year, and typically those board meetings have calls to them. That means the preparation for what we do in October, whether it's setting next year's tuition, whatever is the traditional rhythm of schedule in October, January, February, May, the president really works within that a framework. Secondly, the president has a schedule built on the campaign and the cycle of fundraising as well. So keeping in mind that the president works in these windows will also give you a real sense of what she or he brings in with her or him right in the room in that moment.
Meredith Metsker:
That is a lot.
Joretta Nelson:
Yeah.
Meredith Metsker:
These are long days for sure. So knowing that the president is dealing with so much and has so many requests on their time or their physical presence and things like that, how can career leaders get in front of the president effectively or make the best use of time?
Joretta Nelson:
Well, I think it's going to be different for each of us because one things I was thinking about, I talked to a few people at the conference as well, is how regularly do you get to be in a larger group where leadership is present? So that may be a first step for you all as you listen to this today. It's hey, I don't even have access there or I regularly do, or I'm invited in. So depending on where you are in that continuum, you may have to stage your growth in that. You may have to stage some communication by way of email and data before you actually get invited into a one-on-one conversation, let's say with the president. But regardless of that, I think number one, be curious about the vision and the charge to the president.
So where can you find articulated what is it that the board has charged the president to do? What's explicit about that? Secondly, what has the president said is his or her vision for the institution and more particularly for the outcome of a student experience? Can you quote the president? Do you know what the KPIs are that the president has set in place? Sometimes I hear presidents use this really global language. Our students will be well-prepared and they will have ... The kinds of things our career leaders really know about. They say those things as presidents, and so if you can listen for that, then you as a career leader can then help .. This is my word to you about all of your cabinet members. Help them be successful. So if what the president has been charged to do is increase the value proposition of the student experience, then how do you help the president interpret that in placement rates, in the kinds of experiences that you are bringing to the table so that the president can be successful in that regard. Does that make sense Meredith?
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. It's like you're ... As I'm sure folks listening to this already know you don't want to just go into this meeting with guns a blazing, making a big ask. It's here's how I can help you and not this is what I need from you kind of thing.
Joretta Nelson:
So good. Yeah. Number one, that's going to be true with everyone you all, right? You want a partnership with some of the most difficult divisions on the campus. You got to go in with how can I help you be successful? So that's just leadership 101, that's your next level leadership work. With a president, I'll tell you one of the things that happens to presidents is they get a lot of data on a regular basis and they don't have time to pull out the top three things they should know. So if I were a president right now and I had an amazing career leader on my campus, I'd be asking at least for monthly data based on my personal schedule. I've got a board meeting upcoming in October. I've got one in January, I've got a donor thing, I've got a capital campaign. What are the top three things I should be able to quote about what are students looking for when it comes to the value proposition related to career development? And number two, how well is my institution doing? Give me some data. Don't give me a hundred pieces of data. Give me three pieces of data that I can use.
Secondly, I need stories. I don't know if you hear this, but I hear this ... I'm not just talking about marketing and branding. I hear presidents on a regular basis say, "I need a rotation of real time stories that I can use in my back pocket for every conversation." I just told you about the schedule the president has. Donor chamber of commerce, faculty or family who are unhappy, whatever it might be. What are the ways that I can say? Well you know, I know that Meredith Metsker is a fantastic recent grad and she has just recently told us that her preparation at XY University has been the best preparation she's ever had. And that quote is on our website right now. Be sure you go for it. So I need some data and I need some quotes and stories that I can use. If you could be regularly providing that for me, then when you meet with me as a president, I'm going to be ready to say more to you about how you can help me and then you can ask me how to help you.
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But you got to start with offering value.
Joretta Nelson:
That's right.
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. That's some great advice. Also, your comment about student stories on the marketing website or whatever is making me flashback to when I was a senior and I was part of an advancement campaign at the University of Idaho, which is my alma mater. It was like a fundraising thing for the College of Letters Arts and social Sciences because I was a journalism major and a photographer came into the newsroom where I was interning, and it was a very dark and dingy space so trying to make it look nice. But it was fun for me as a student to share my story.
Joretta Nelson:
Yeah. Oh my goodness. We'll get into the advancement question here in a second partnership in that. But I just have to tell you all with all that we have in artificial intelligence is taking place the human side of the impact of our work, finding ways to communicate that equipping people to tell those stories is going to be more important than it ever was before. It needs to be balanced with data, but we need a human story that helps explicate that on an ongoing basis so we can bring the value proposition to, you need to come here to become more human so you are a better employee going forward. And that's part of what we offer as well. And stories really help that. And presidents have to have stories.
Meredith Metsker:
And as we know, career services, they are the keeper of the data and the stories.
Joretta Nelson:
And the stories. Yeah. Yeah. If I were going to start my own world ... I heard a few folks talking about this, but having someone who is just full-time telling the stories in my division or my department would be a big piece of that too so yeah. That's the president.
Meredith Metsker:
Love it. Okay, let's move on to the chief academic officer or sometimes I know that's called the provost. So what are their responsibilities? What does their day-to-day look like and what should career leaders know about them?
Joretta Nelson:
Well, does anyone want to be a provost? I'll just tell you. Pre-COVID we would say we've seen some retirements in presidents and the data really point to that. But post-COVID we have seen fewer provosts move into presidents into that spot. And we've seen more vacancies in the provost role, which means that our deans and those who typically come from a staged up version ... Because I'll just say Meredith, it is a very difficult role. One of the things I want to be brave about today is to speak some truth and I'm going to speak truth. And then maybe you should edit this out. I don't know. Say it anyway. Our industry is really breaking apart. It is really shifting. And our framework for the way we do our work, which is owned by faculty, is the last to know and the last to respond and the slowest to respond. So being the leader of that work is really taxing on the provost.
So the provost walks into a meeting with you and I can just tell you that they have come from some governance discussion where faculty are going to say ... And I was one of them, we don't have what we need. We're being asked to do too much, and I could go on and on in this list, but we don't have enough time for that. The governance piece of how come we are not a part of the conversation, we are moving too fast, the administration fill in the gap. And all of the other kinds of things that are being elevated politically for us right now, the provost is going to walk into a meeting with you with all of that sitting right here. What are our faculty doing out there in relationship to what is taking place politically? That provost is also walking in saying, "I know that I own the biggest piece of our cost at this institution and it's personnel." And it's personnel related to net tuition revenue. How much does it cost to deliver a program?
I never thought as a provost when I walk in the door to meet with you as a career leader that I would have to know finance. I didn't know that. And now instead of being asked about, "Hey, Joretta, what is the power of renaissance choral music?", I am being asked, "How in the world can we afford a one-to-one relationship in the arts? We can't afford it anymore, Joretta, so what are we going to do?" I didn't know I would be leading that as a provost. So imagining for the provost, they have the financial issues, they have the governance issues, okay, that's a major issue.
Number three, I didn't know as a provost that I was going to have to be the inspiration and manager of new program, market-worthy programmatic development and growth. I didn't know that. I didn't know I'd have to be an enrollment expert. I thought I was just going to get to enjoy my discipline and share with that. So they've got so much on their minds. Now I think that's the perfect place for the career leader. I think this is the perfect place for the career leader. Before I talk about the solution there, I do want to say I think our provosts are managing the five stages of grieving, as I call it. If I can rob that for faculty. Because I think our faculty in the industry are in a bit of either the stage of denial or the stage of blame or a stage of acquiescence. And none of those three of the five stages put you in a spot of creativity and innovation. And so I feel for our provosts who come in often when I talk with them and just say, "I can't find any hope out there." It's very dismal in the faculty world as they see what's really happening. So being mindful that the provost is managing the frustrations, the finance, and also a bit of the industry's transformation in that moment can really, I think set us up well.
What can we do as career leaders in this environment? Well, we can really acknowledge that for the professions in the institution, there's a pretty clear pathway. So if you look at, hey, going into education, you're going to go into the healthcare fields. There's a pretty clear pathway in those professions and those academic programs. Here is what you do and this is how you do. It doesn't mean that our career leaders don't need to be involved. But you all, all you career leaders, we get into the arts and the humanities, and that's where we really need your help. We just need your help. So how can you strategize with the provost to say, "Where do you need the most help to pilot or to build out an integration of a career development or career readiness or a even an ecosystem within a school of the arts and sciences? How could I partner with you to solve that?" Because that's going to be every provost's question. I get it on a regular basis, big R1 institutions or smaller institutions. Well, these guys are doing okay in light of this, but here's where we really have the problems. And yet we promise to the student and family come here and we'll get you ready. And that's where we really need some help. That's my bet on the provost side, what do you think, Meredith?
Meredith Metsker:
Well, first off, it makes me want to go give the provost at my alma mater a hug. So again, yeah, I went to the University of Idaho and funnily enough, another music connection. The provost there was my marching and pep band director for three years. So he was a tuba professor who has worked his way up to provost. So I just want to go give him a quick hug, be like, "You're doing great. Good job." But also, I really love what you were saying about offering to collaborate on ways to integrate career into a new program or piloting new things like that. I think that is a huge value prop for career services leaders, especially in the arts and humanities.
Joretta Nelson:
Yeah. I'd love our career leaders to be ... I was going to talk a little bit about this with enrollment management, but it might be better here. I think our career leaders need to be part of designing programs.
Meredith Metsker:
Wouldn't that be amazing?
Joretta Nelson:
I remember my mentor, Joanne Soliday. I was around when she wrote and helped inform some of the writing that she did for Surviving to Thriving our Credo book. I so well remember her talking about the importance of asking the right questions from the very beginning and being sure that we are really in partnership about how we design those programs as well. I think what's important for us here is to think about when we design a program, what is it that we need to think about, about what kind of students going to come, what kind of experience they're going to have, how we could build in from the very beginning, the kinds of experiences that help them stay. So music majors, let's just talk about them for a second. When they come in, they have a tribe of sorts, but it's a very competitive tribe. And so sometimes it's really helpful early on for us to see what the multiple kinds of ways are that we can go into various kinds of programs and to have that conversation before we get into our sophomore and junior stages where we have to pass certain exams. Because when we get into those exams and the competition gets really tough, if we don't make it to the next level, we typically will end. We'll quit. So how can career leaders help us think about what's the journey of the student experience within a certain program, right?
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. There's a lot more we could unpack there, but I do want to be mindful of our time and keep us going around the table. Okay. So we've talked about president and provost, so let's move on to the chief enrollment officer or whoever is leading enrollment. As we talked about in the last episode, we had Jonathan Wehner of Carnegie, and so he shared a lot of really good detailed information about what life looks like for ahead of enrollment. So again, listeners, be sure to check out that episode as well. But Joretta is there any additional info you would like to add about working with enrollment leaders or how career services con do that?
Joretta Nelson:
Well, first of all, just shout out to all of our enrollment management folks because it is a hard job. It is just if you want to walk in the shoes of somebody where it's really tough, I think career leaders ought to go on some of the campus visits that they do or out to some of the regional fairs that they have to go to because you stand alongside those folks you really understand what we're talking about in the market. Second, I think career leaders ought to know the data for enrollment management. Where do our students come from? What is conversion? What is yield? Where does our enrollment management team get stuck? Are they having trouble converting an application to a completed app? So even knowing what the challenges are can help us align with where the enrollment management leader is really worried and thinking about.
Third thing I want to note because I haven't had a chance at this recording today date, I haven't had a chance to listen explicitly to what Jonathan said. But my wish is that we as career leaders could build the value proposition into the funnel experience for enrollment management. And I wanted to give an example today. We always want campus visits in enrollment management. They've been a measure for us of a student's intentionality and they open up all sorts of opportunities for us to get to students and family support services around them. And I've seen some really exciting things where instead of just saying, "Let's have an accepted student day," that on very sophisticated places, the career leaders are actually offering a guest speaker for the day where amazing career businesses and networked people are coming for a major event. And the admission office can use that as the accepted student day or as an interest day. So not just an opportunity to meet with career development during a visit day instead saying, "No, the day is built on here's what we do at our institution. We're in partnership with major companies and businesses, and we have leaders who talk about what's needed in the industry these days and in workforce." Make that an admission event. And for me, that blends the two and helps admission really get what they need and also really features us so that's helpful.
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. It's offering, again, another thing we've touched on is offering proof, not just promises that your institution has these relationships with employers.
Joretta Nelson:
To me that takes us right to our student affairs partner who's at the table as well. I want to say another shout out to those folks too. You probably know this Meredith, that post-COVID, the greatest departure of leadership in mass was within the student affairs division across the country. And that was true private, public, community college, four-year, etc. We just lost a wealth. I think it was 37% of the industry experts in student affairs left the field entirely. Not moved to a different institution. They flat out left the field post-COVID. And so we've lost a lot of that wealth. The secondly, we are so focused now on mental health and issues related to mental health for our students, whether they're adults or young, first time in college, that's really weighing on our teams. The political strife that we're facing right now means that student affairs gets labeled with or has the burden of somehow holding all of that and managing all of that. At our bigger institutions, we're supposed to control all of the behavior of our students. And so I just look at our student affairs professionals and just think, how can we help them?
So I want to say to our career leaders, student affairs at the bottom of the day when they walk into the room, they want to be respected and partnered as part of the learning experience. They see themselves as a means of distinguishing the value proposition at the institution, not just about behavior and not just about fun or external engagement. They are experts in so many ways in how to help students learn and transform. So I was thinking if we really want to partner well with them and help them solve their problems, how do we get more deeply engaged and embedded in their curriculum? So their curriculum and student affairs is around the onboarding of the student. We might call that the first year experience. And in the second year experience and in all of their high impact practices, how do we move from being one high impact practice in their portfolio to the way they think about the first year, to the way they think about the second year in a more formal way. And how can we strategically partner with them?
I'm working with one unnamed institution right now where I'm watching the student affairs division really build in learning outcomes related to career development into their own learning outcomes across the board. And it's so high-powered. It really is a curriculum. So as well as just being encouraging to student affairs folks. I feel like everybody at the cabinet needs a big hug.
Meredith Metsker:
Maybe just bring them some snacks or a bottle of water.
Joretta Nelson:
Cronuts all around and then some alcohol at the end of the day. Got to have it.
Meredith Metsker:
You'll have to forgive my ignorance here. So student affairs, are they also overseeing extracurricular type stuff like student organizations?
Joretta Nelson:
Yeah. And student affairs can incorporate ... I see athletics report to student affairs sometimes. It's not unusual to do that. So they've got all the student orgs. Often they've got everything related to high impact practices as well as residential life and the commuter experience. They've got leadership development. They have health and wellness, which is a huge ... That's why I say that sometimes that's the taking precedence in that regard as well. So you can see how helping them navigate the use of the student really learning what is it I'm called to do and where am I going and my opportunity could be really helpful across the board.
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. Absolutely. So they're out of the classroom-
Joretta Nelson:
That's right.
Meredith Metsker:
Folks. Okay.
Joretta Nelson:
Yeah.
Meredith Metsker:
All right. Well let's close out our leadership table here with whoever is in charge of advancement. What are their priorities? What do their schedules look like? And again, what should career leaders know about them?
Joretta Nelson:
In my own personal experience being on a cabinet, but also when I walk into cabinets, it is so interesting to me to see the VP for advancement or the chief advancement officer walk in the door because she or he dresses really differently than everyone else does. Isn't that a funny thing to say? You probably should.
Meredith Metsker:
They're dressed like snappier.
Joretta Nelson:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. This is the person who has to represent the institution on a regular basis. Now, I'm not shaming anyone here. What do we say? Shading anybody. Throwing some shade if they don't do that. But you see them talking about an event they were at that evening before getting ready for some major event. They have this public face that they're continuously grooming and they have a very unique relationship with the president and they should have a very unique relationship with the president. So remember that the advancement person will themselves have ... Remember what their goals are. Go back to the top of our conversation. How do you help each cabinet member achieve what they're supposed to be achieving? Okay. So how are they being charged? How are they being measured for success. And enrollment, you can count the numbers of students who come in. And advancement you can count the money, the fundraising and whatever else they are to be raising. Friend raising numbers of new donors. They have a set of measures and that's a lot of pressure on that area. And for advancement, they're very dependent on the president and the board to help them do that.
So one of the reasons why I think career leaders really need to think about advancement is advancement has direct connection to the president. So if you don't have access to the president, start with advancement. Because that's going to be a really good way to get into your president or to your chancellor if that's at that time. That person's walking in and they've had something external, they've had something internal, they know the numbers better than anyone else does. They know finance really well as well. So they've had some meetings about where they are in finance, what the future goals look like, where they are. They meet regularly with the CFO side of things. So they're thinking always about those kinds of dollars.
What I wanted to think about with our career leaders today is I think there's a lot of crossover. Don't you Meredith? I think there's so much in this area in particular where I think our career leaders are often thinking about partnerships external to the institution and advancement people are thinking about partnerships as well. Is that fair you think?
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Joretta Nelson:
So I wondered if one of the ways you could be really helpful to your partner who's chief advancement officer is here's a list of all the partnerships we're working with right now, and here's how I'm going to keep you updated. I don't know if we have a shared database in that regard, but can we begin to really share where we're getting a door opened and having some success? So I was on a campus once where we had invited in a major donor and the donor was actually from a company where our career leadership was getting some placement and we didn't know that the two were connected or had not been connected. We looked like we didn't know what we're talking about is what I'm trying to say. So how do we share the information and help each other be really successful about new doors that can be open?
So that's related to these external partnerships. And how do we strategize on that? If we're going to build some new programs and career leadership wants to help set up some future networking, then how does advancement build into that? Their strategy as well saying, is that future scholarship? Is that future donor material? Or how are we connected through the board in that regard? Remember, advancement, direct, connection to the president, direct connection to the board. So I think that could be a way. The second thing I think that advancement would be desperate for is the same thing the president is. And that's data and stories. Data and stories. And if I haven't said it before, data and stories. I would love that if I'm getting ready to go out and talk to a donor, if I had five stories in my back pocket about how our students are doing really well because of their experience with us, that'd be really helpful.
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. Talk about someone who needs to externally approve the ROI of the institution. It's advancement. No one's going to donate large sums of money to an institution that isn't successful.
Joretta Nelson:
Exactly. And this is where I'm going to go back to the numbers are really important with every donor, every single donor. I just want you to know that. So we have to consistently have the data that makes sense to people. But human stories are really important to donors and they twist the heart and they're really helpful to the advancement office. So do that.
Meredith Metsker:
That's what makes them sign the check is the human element. I have heard from a few career leaders in the past that sometimes advancement can be very protective of their relationships, which is understandable. But knowing that, is there anything else career leaders should know if maybe the head of advancement is a little persnickety or just really, really protective and doesn't want to share information as readily.
Joretta Nelson:
So I always say my first thing, if I'm doing a strategic coaching or executive coaching or strategic advising with any rising leader, I will always say be the one who leads with transparency. So if you've got someone who's holding their cards pretty close to them ... In this case, maybe it's the advancement folks who don't want to open up all of their information, share yours. Absolutely share yours. Here's our list of top areas where we're hitting where we're going for potential partnerships this year, and here's our really rising stars that have been really helpful to us. We've placed a number of our students, or they've been in to interview a number of our students. I want to make sure, are there any things that you should give me a heads-up on that you want me to be on the lookout for? Is there good information I can do on your behalf? Because I want us to look like a unified team and I'll leave it. And if you can build that transparency, I'm not afraid as the career leader, I am not going to hold those type. I'm going to give those away. Then you can build some partnership there.
Meredith Metsker:
I love that. That's great advice Joretta. And on the note of great advice, you've already offered a ton in this conversation, but are there any other general tips or advice you would give to career services leaders who want to connect with those senior leaders, get a seat at that table and then position themselves as a strategic partner?
Joretta Nelson:
Well, have I said data?
Meredith Metsker:
Data and stories.
Joretta Nelson:
The second thing is I had mentioned my colleague Joanne, who was a mentor of mine, and one of the things she did tell me early on was Joretta, as you go into a new vice president role or into some role, the best thing you could do is a cup of coffee with key leaders and just make that happen. An invitation. And I would say that to career leaders. If you're in a position where it's possible for you to say, "Look, I would just love to get an hour meet you over at the coffee shop. I'll buy a cup of coffee. I just wanted to pick your brain about what you're seeing and listen to you about what your goals are this year." If you could get some one-on-one and some personal time, I strongly recommend it. It's the starting point you all. And the more you can be seen as a partner who is institutionally minded, the better.
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. Absolutely. You and Jonathan are very aligned in your answers on that. That was one of his suggestions for chief enrollment officers too. He's like, "Figure out a way to meet with them regularly and that can start with, 'Hey, can I buy you some coffee?'"
Joretta Nelson:
That's it. Yeah. Yeah. That's it.
Meredith Metsker:
Love that. Okay. Well, Joretta, is there anything else you would like to add before I start closing us out?
Joretta Nelson:
There is one thing I failed to say when I was at the conference that has kept me awake at night a little bit. I don't know if I stressed to my colleagues there enough that you are a part of the student success leadership at your institution. And it is critical for you to have the full student success strategy in mind when you go forward and represent with any of these cabinet members. Sometimes I will meet folks who come from let's say, the teaching and learning center, or from the student advising center or from a career leader. And they're coming into the conversation almost at their own unit level. And I want to strongly recommend that when you walk into any conversation that you talk about the data related to student success. Here's why students stay at our institution. Here's the measures that we use. Here are the other five strategies that we're working on this year collectively together. And this work I am doing in career development or career curriculum development is a part of the solution to help make that work. Tie yourself into student success. Meredith, I just have to say, I don't think we're going to make it if we don't tie our work together in a very intentional way.
Meredith Metsker:
Yeah. That's a great point. And I think we know historically silos have always been an issue in higher ed, and so career leaders have an opportunity to try and break those down, lead with transparency, as you said, set that example. So yeah. I think that's a great place to wind down the interview a little bit. But Joretta if anyone would like to connect with you or learn more from you, where's a good place for them to do that?
Joretta Nelson:
Well, they could come to the beach.
Meredith Metsker:
Dibs.
Joretta Nelson:
Yeah. I'd like to be on the beach a little bit more. But LinkedIn is a great way Meredith I think to probably connect. I would love that. I connect a lot on LinkedIn. That'd be great.
Meredith Metsker:
And for everyone watching and listening, I will be sure to include a link to Joretta's LinkedIn profile, so you can go connect with her there. Okay. So Joretta, at the end of every interview, I like to do this, answer a question, leave a question thing. So I'll ask you a question. Our last guest left for you, and then you will leave a question for the next guest. So our last guest as we talked about was Jonathan Wehner of Carnegie, and he left a heavy hitter question for you. What's one thing that's holding you back right now, and what's one thing you could do today so it's not holding you back anymore?
Joretta Nelson:
Yeah. When I saw that question ... Thanks for giving me a little bit of heads up on that. I called Jonathan right away and said, "Thanks a lot for that. It couldn't be what's your favorite ice cream or something a little bit more fun." But I appreciate the chance to really think deeply. And I thought, what is holding me back right now. Meredith, for a few of us, we're starting to think about legacy. I'm at a stage in my life where I think, man, I've been in higher ed for so long. And I think what scares me and maybe even holds me back right now is I don't want to be an alarmist, but I'm scared. I'm worried. I've been saying I think we have a Blockbuster mindset in a Netflix world. I'm just worried that we are not thinking aggressively and moving and changing fast enough. Sometimes what holds me back is I don't want to be an alarmist in that regard.
And I thought that was a really good question for me because I think I have a platform to shake a stick and say I think we have reason to worry. So what can I do to move myself forward? And maybe your listeners have some worry about this too. I'd say I need to be more vulnerable and just say I've got to find a place of vulnerability to say, I don't mean to overstate, but hey, it cannot be business as usual. So I've got my Brené Brown quote right here on the front of my computer. Vulnerability is not weakness. It's the birthplace of innovation, creativity, and change. And I think, okay, I'm going to lean into that. I'm going to be more vulnerable.
Meredith Metsker:
I love that for you Joretta. And is that from Brené Brown's Dare to Lead book, because I love it.
Joretta Nelson:
It's just twisted up on my bookshelf right over there. Right. I've just got so many pages of that.
Meredith Metsker:
That's a good one.
Joretta Nelson:
Inspirational.
Meredith Metsker:
Cool. Well, I love that Joretta. Thank you for sharing and being vulnerable with us. What question would you like to leave for the next guest?
Joretta Nelson:
Well, I can't leave an easy question. That's unfair. So I am going to leave ... So when you think ahead, what do you want your legacy to be in higher education?
Meredith Metsker:
Do you know? I don't want to just flip this around on you, but do you know what you would want yours to be?
Joretta Nelson:
I hope that I have left a unique place for the student experience to be more central to our thinking. I wish I were a better artist, but I hope that instead of that being at the conversational level, that it's been dug deep down into the institutional and structural level. And to be candid with you, part of my joy of coming to Carnegie is that we have exposure to so many more institutions that are so large and who really want to serve students well. But that's not a running driver for them, the student experience. So I hope I can do that.
Meredith Metsker:
Well, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. This was a really great conversation. I think you shared a ton of really great insider knowledge that our listeners can use to get in front of those senior leaders, lead with value, lead with transparency, and hopefully move the needle a little bit on some of these cabinet level of relationships. So just thank you again for taking the time and sharing your wisdom.
Joretta Nelson:
Totally, my honor. Thanks, Meredith.