Slava (00:05.07)
you
Jonathan (00:10.894)
Good morning, good afternoon, and good night, wherever you're tuning in. We are Slava and Jonathan bringing you the SideQuest podcast, where we talk about character development, stories, and all things that are world building. And we occasionally take the SideQuest because, frankly, that's how conversations work. Just as a reminder, this whole show is spoiler heavy. So sit back, tune in, and join us on this episode of SideQuest.
Good afternoon, Slava.
Good afternoon, Charlie.
Welcome back to SideQuest.
back to the unside-quested king tournament.
Jonathan (00:54.988)
Very good. Yes. If anyone is teaching English as a second language, Slava is available as a student. he will pay you in Madra coins. So, you know, just reach out for that. But welcome back book adventurers. We've got some exciting updates for you. We're diving into Uncrowned today, the seventh book in Will White's Cradle series. And it's packed with a tournament arc, growth and intense.
can't even say my words. Are you, is this contagious?
My disease. Yes, very much so and it travels through the internet.
Man, one of those viruses I've heard about. Intense character development. As a reminder, be sure to follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and check out our website, thesidequestpodcast.com.
So for today's episode structure, we're going to do author overview and delve into the themes. And then next episode, we're going to do a plot overview kind of in chunks. And as always guest episode for number three, which your favorite familiar faces, probably all six again from the last one.
Jonathan (02:10.638)
Probably. Yep. As a quick note to the audience, I have read, and I think if you're here for the Cradle series, you know this, I've read Cradle before. Slava is going along the journey and he's on book seven, first time reading it. And I think Casey is also first time reading it. Yeah. Spencer and JT second time, and then Matt first time as well.
although the people listening are probably familiar with Will White, our indie publishing legend. He is known for crafting logical but mind blowing power systems. He's the creator of Cradle, Traveler's Gate and the Elder Empire series. And according to Jonathan, his publishing journey shows the power of persistence and storytelling. This episode, as Jonathan alluded to a few seconds ago, has a tournament in it.
a tournament arc, it's sort of a staple in anime and progression fantasy books.
We'd see something like this if people are familiar with Dragon Ball Z or Hunter x Hunter, where the characters are invited to a, not always world class, but like high-end tournament to show off their prowess fighting against other world renowned or high-end characters. Yu Yu Hakusho, I think the entire second season or third season, same thing. So it's a fun trope, if you will, that we like to revisit in...
stories like this.
Slava (03:40.182)
And there's a buildup to this tournament. I think Willa White sets us up really well for what's happening in this book. If I may, I want to front load two things. About the tournament, the purpose and significance, and this will help set up our conversation for the plot next episode. So what is the purpose and significance of the Uncrowned King tournament? Well, as Jonathan just said, it's a high stakes competition.
You may not.
Slava (04:09.824)
And for our book, it's designed to identify the strongest young sacred artists while preparing them to face the existential threat of the Dread Gods. In this book, it also serves as a political tool for the monarchs to reinforce their factional dominance, forge allegiances, and foster rivalries that will shape Kratos' future power dynamics. Beyond its immediate battles, the tournament symbolizes growth
struggle, pushing participants to confront their fears, achieve personal breakthroughs and prepare them for even greater conflicts ahead. For our main characters in this book, the significance of this Uncrowned Tournament lies in its role as a crucible for self-discovery and personal growth, forcing Lyndon, Yaren and Mercy specifically to confront their fears and push beyond their limits.
For our buddy, Lyndon, represents his relentless pursuit to close the gap between himself and his peers. For Yarin, it challenges her to master her blood shadow and reaffirm her identity. And for Mercy, it tests her ability to balance loyalty to her friends with the weight of her family's expectations. Ultimately, the tournament is both a proving ground for Cradle's future defenders and a stage where individual ambitions
and broader cosmic stakes intersect. So that's the setup for everything that we're going to talk about the next three episodes. I found this book very fast paced, very engaging. I still stand by what I said for Underlord or about Underlord that it's my favorite thus far. This hasn't taken first place yet. Maybe it will in a second read through or after we dive into the plot and have the other guys.
who are coming on the show to discuss it. Right now, it's a good book. It's a great book. Uncrowned still is first place so far in the series. But the way this was executed, again, kudos to Willa White. Fast pace, lots of action, lots of growth for both Yaron and Lyndon. I think my silly little assumptions about there's something hinting at or bordering romantic feelings between
Slava (06:34.708)
Lyndon and Yaron, there might be a few things that are confirmed. Maybe, maybe it's all in my head, but that's for next episode when we get into the plot. So all that to say, love the book, read it in three or four days because I was just enthralled with how fast the story was unfolding.
You know, just had a wild thought. How cool would it be if we could get Will White on our podcast?
Hey, it'd be really cool. And it's not that far fetched. I watched a podcast where it's a YouTube channel. I don't know if the guy has a podcast or not, but he has a YouTube channel and he's an artist and he got Brandon Sanderson on his podcast show. Yeah. He showed off his art and Sanderson said, well, you got this right. You got that wrong. Shallon should have her hand covered. Calvin's a little bit taller than that. So he gave him feedback on his art. It was pretty cool. It was like a.
two or three minute video, I forgot to share it with you, but it's not out of the realm of possibility to get one these guys on our show.
I'm gonna literally send him a message on this episode right now. Hey Will, I run a small podcast. Well, based on today's evidence, I'd say, that's not exactly the case, but okay.
Slava (07:46.958)
Co-run.
Slava (07:52.652)
Me and my assistant would like you to do
Me and my assistant, co-host of Small Podcast, were slowly working our way through Cradle. We just read Uncrowned. We'd love to have you on for a short segment, if you're willing.
We can pay you in Starbucks.
Slava has volunteered to put you in starbucket.
I'll buy him a few cups of coffee.
Jonathan (08:19.736)
So three, you get three cups of coffee based on 1999 prices. Right. You get... From Sturb. Just one from my company credit card.
tall espresso.
Slava (08:35.086)
So I can have it right off.
That's right, that's right.
Hashtag hustle culture.
Yes, I know you love hustle culture.
I am overcome with passion about hustle culture. Hashtag grinding.
Jonathan (08:50.274)
What about grinder? Anyway, back to the book here. Unless you want to do one more joke. Anyway, so we just shot Will an invite and you know, how crazy would it be if the, the guests show up and then who jumps in, but Will himself. And we go, be a fun surprise for them.
Oh no, I'm good. We can move on.
Slava (09:07.768)
Dude, that would be amazing. That'd be fun surprise. Not if we let them listen to this episode, but yes. I can cut it out for their.
like we usually do.
There go. And they also won't know, like, cause I don't have an answer to this response. But anyway, to set Uncrowned up even a little more as we go in here. And then I want to do a quick side quest with Slava. We're seeing another opportunity where Linden will either rise or be broken. Slava mentioned something earlier about Yeren's blood shadow. And I can't wait to dive into that. I don't know if we'll get to it this episode. I think it's more of a next episode thing, but definitely want to know your shock.
or lack thereof with Yeren's blood shadow. So, Linden has proven that he's worthy for a seat at the table for this tournament, but how far will he make it? If you've already read it, you know how far he makes it. But I love in this book that Will gave us the opportunity to watch other characters kind of take the lead. That is kind of a change of pace because oftentimes it's like, if I'm watching Dragon Ball Z, like, okay, Goku is going to...
you know, win the tournament or whatever. And it's not very often that authors will end up changing the mold, if you will, because like the hero always has to win. And it's like, they can win, but in different ways. And so the, the first time I read it, the change of pace there where it's like, Lyndon didn't make it to the final rounds and Lyndon and Yaron had to fight each other. That's fun. So yeah, I really, really liked that stuff.
Slava (10:47.308)
Yeah, earmark that for next episode. I really found Lyndon's inner struggle with having to fight Yaren very fun to read because he realizes, and this is all I want to say, he realizes that he can't hold back as much as he wants to because she's a friend and companion. He has to fight her because that's what she would want. And that's honor, if you will.
demands and that's what is required of him because of his debt to the Kura clan and just in general terms, that's the right thing to do. Yeah. Because he's not going to kill her. He's not going to kill her. you know, and he's not going to maim her or anything, but he has to give it his all for it to be what it's supposed to be. Judge correctly. Thank you. Yeah.
You know, that's actually a thought I had the first time I read this. I know it's like, you know, that neither of you dies if you go all out. So this is like the place where you should do that. But because Lyndon's not that kind of character. And again, this will be my one thought and then I'll ask you the side quest. I don't want it to run by you because that those rules are in place in this like magic arena. You should absolutely go one all out, but because to your point, because of Lyndon and he's like, but I.
But I care about you. Like, I don't want to hurt you. don't. And he has this like hard black and white view of friends, I guess I would say. There's probably a better way to say it. He's conflicted. So yeah, let's talk more about that in the next episode. Now for a quick side quest. If you could rewrite one scene from Uncrowned, what would you change and why?
Good question. The thing that immediately popped into my head is Lyndon kicking Pride's ass earlier.
Jonathan (12:38.433)
earlier.
Yeah, because remember Pride attacks him in the beginning and Lyndon fights back. Yep. But Pride kind of bests him. I think for the subsequent pages where Pride's all hateful and annoyed and doing what he does best, being a little douchebag, growing a bushel of bitterness, it would have been more believable in my mind. And this is me talking on the spot.
growing a little tree of bitterness.
A bushel of internet.
Slava (13:08.116)
As you asked the question, because you surprised me by that question. This wasn't pre-scripted. If the first time Pride attacks Lyndon, Lyndon, you know, kind of falls back, you know, bested in the first attempt. And then he's like, what the hell am I doing? I had to fight back. And when he hits Pride and Pride goes flying through the room and outside, you know, outside the building they're in. At that moment, if Pride wasn't able to recover and was beaten completely.
And then all his little buddies started fighting Lyndon, trying their best to defeat him and hurt him and all that stuff that followed. That would have been for a better tension, but the way it was laid out by Will still works. I felt that Will could have given Lyndon a little win here or an extra win where he goes, okay, I have to fight. And when Lyndon fights back in this portion of the book, I'm like, good, good for you, Lyndon. This is the way to do it.
And then he gets beaten again. And I understand. think I do. Will is given more and more obstacles for Lyndon to overcome. And this is just one of them. He's not there yet. And despite what happens later where pride begrudgingly helps Lyndon or you kind of gives him that the crown goes, here you go. You know, just, I don't want to talk to you, but here you go. paraphrasing. I thought that would have been a bigger win for Lyndon at the end.
IF he bested Pride in the beginning. Doesn't break the book for me or the story, but I'm interested now because this is a really good question. I'm interested in your answer to it because you probably thought about it. So yours must be better formatted than mine was because I just answered in the spot.
I don't know if it's better formatted, but the thing that I would have liked to have seen is it's this tension between I love how fast the books move and like would want to just slide an extra scene or two in here, but without adding too many scenes, the scene that I would change is when Yaron and Lyndon fight. And I would make the struggle with her blood shadow more difficult because that's going to, that's going to develop again in the next, like, I mean, it's a story, right? Like she still has the blood shower shadow.
Jonathan (15:22.944)
It's a thing that for Yeren's character will continue to develop. And so it's just these moments. Basically, I just wanted Yeren to get a little more play, specifically with her internal struggles, particularly the blood shadow. So I don't know what that would look like necessarily. So this is why I was like, I don't know if it's more well formatted, but simply that during their battle, she struggles to keep her blood shadow under control and maybe it tries to kill Linden or something like, right? Like something a little more.
Or maybe it tries not to kill Lyndon, right? Where it's like, no, I like Lyndon. I don't want to do that because it's got a mind of its own. like something with that, where it's a three person battle, not a two person.
If he didn't try to kill Lyndon, the bloodshadow, that would have been more fun. That would throw Yeren for a loop. You'd like, what? Right. I'm sure she'd be glad that the bloodshadow wasn't trying to destroy her friend, but the fact that it actually liked Lyndon or even preferred Lyndon, that would have been funny. Right. That'd been good twist.
Right.
Jonathan (16:22.028)
Right. Yeah. So anyway, that's my little side quest there.
Well, if you guys are enjoying today's side quest, make sure to rate the show to help others discover it and join us in building this casual book club together. So what would you say are some themes in this book Jonathan, and then we can pick two each or something like that and unpack them.
Yeah, I spent a little time thinking about this, used a little research and I'll give you a quick rundown with like a sentence description for each. And I'll go kind of slow so that it's easier to digest, but per usual for a cradle book, we've got growth and progression where we look at incremental changes leading to a larger, more monumental change. We have resilience and perseverance when you're faced with impossible odds.
and you have the opportunity to either give up or persevere. We have power and responsibility. We've talked about that one a little bit in the past, not even in this book, or this book series, but other books as well, where power comes with responsibility. Something that I'd add to that theme though is this idea of authority, which we've also spoken about where you can't, well, maybe I'll pick that one. Let me keep listing my side commentary. We have friendship and companionship, kind of like,
the side quest that I threw in there where we see Linden and his team try to work together mixed with their individual potential. And then even Aethan and Yaron's team working together for their teamwork. have rivalry and competition where rivals clearly, CuraPride hates Linden because he's got his, what'd you call it? A bushel of bitterness? Bushel of bitterness and
Slava (18:12.278)
There you go.
rivalries within own team, you know, one's own team force each other to like step up to a higher plate, which is kind of fun, but also causes issues in the tournament. We have the sacred and the profane, which explores the temptation that challenges integrity throughout the book where there are some characters who want to maintain tradition and power structures and hierarchies. And there are others who are kind of throwing that to the wind. Then we have survival of the fittest, which is like
100 % of progression fantasy. And we have trust and betrayal where alliances shift a little bit and motives are revealed. We learn a bit more about Akura Malice and her stuff there. We have the price of ambition and what it costs, especially when you're not the biggest fish in the pond. And you may or may not be using someone's mind spirit that they spent ages developing, Kov-Kov and Overstrider, and the consequences that come with that, which is how this book ends, which is really fun.
And then the final one that I drummed up is leadership and influence where leadership will shape the people around you, not just their outcomes, but also their perspectives and how they choose what they choose. Koff Koff, Ethan. So a lot of good topics to pick from. Which one stands out to you?
I had three that stood out to me is friendship and companionship, the sacred and profane, and resilience and perseverance in no particular order.
Jonathan (19:46.284)
I kind of started talking about the sacred and profane a little bit, so why don't we dive into that one? I know you've got some notes over here.
Exploring the temptation that challenges integrity, Sacred versus profane. One thing that came to my mind as I was writing this out, choosing from the six that you provided there, is the blood shadow. Yeren's blood shadow embodies this theme, I think. It is a parasitic and profane power source. It offers immense strength, but risks corrupting Yeren's spirit. Yeren's battle with it.
It's her battle to harness it without succumbing to it reflects the tension between sacred principles and the temptation of unchecked power. Cause she could let it take her over and do immense damage to her enemies. But she realizes that it's parasitic, what I just said earlier, but also that she will lose herself. The damage that it will do won't
help her accomplish what she wants to accomplish in her quest. I thought that was, has been, even in previous books, but that was pretty evident in this one.
Well, and that's kind of one of the interesting pieces about Yaren as a character is she is to me, the trope of a survivalist. Like we hear a little bit about her origin story and how the sword sage found her and she was already infected by the blood shadow. And she was just sitting there almost paralyzed because she was fighting it. And that's the characteristic that the sword sage liked about her the most.
Jonathan (21:28.79)
and why he picked her. And so as she grows, it grows. And so this idea of like the blood shadows are seen as profane in this world of cradle. And people are like, well, you can't have one of those because red moon hall and the blood Phoenix are seen as like big bad evil guy, which they are, but she is infected by their power, but she doesn't get a choice to it. And Ethan has not shown her.
ways to remove it from herself. So she's just stuck with this profane power source to put it your way. And it gives her a cutting edge, pun intended. It's pretty incredible, but it's this wonderful character discovery where we watch someone who's like, I'd prefer not to have this. Of course she'd say it, know, some something more quippy like bleed and bury me. She has to, she can't get rid of it. And so she has to just.
keep it constantly constrained, but it's become, it's reaching a pinnacle. It's reaching a peak where she is kind of unsure if she can control it because it's become so powerful.
I like what you said there because if you compare and contrast that with Stormcaller's chosen team or whatever, they exemplify the profane side of ambition, which is another theme here, but combining them two for this point. And they showcase how far individuals will go to achieve dominance. And guys like that with a blood shadow would have no qualms about using it to destroy whatever it is in front of them.
That's preventing them from accomplishing their goals. So Yeren, who has some honor, tries to curtail its influence on her. She tries to harness its power well. Yeah. As well as she can for sure. And even tries to like curb her enthusiasm and using it. She doesn't always want to bring it out because there's always a fear that this moment, this time.
Jonathan (23:26.102)
As well as you can.
Slava (23:40.834)
will be her last time as an individual and the bloodshed it will take over and she will be and she will succumb to its parasitic nature.
Yeah, and as a reminder to the listeners, part of the reason she feels that way is if she's in a battle, Lyndon, just a great example, and she's torn down and she's weary, but her bloodshadow still has enough energy, theoretically her bloodshadow could come after her and take over. more like when we saw in Underlord where the bloodshadow took some of her soul, what was it, soul life, whatever?
Something like that,
that the character chopped off of her spirit, soul spirit or something, and devoured it, which made her super powerful, the blood shadow. And so there's always this risk of, she keeping this creature maintained? And that's why my side quest answer was, well, I'd like to see a little more tension there to really make us question. We are questioning, but I wanna not know. I wanna know, I'm not sure if...
If this is going to work. The other thing I just thought of, because we talked about this earlier is in these battles where they're restored back to life. If the blood shadow took over, would she have been restored to precondition of that happening?
Slava (25:01.442)
Hmm. That is an interesting question.
Where's the cradle scholars when we need them? JT, where you at? He's the closest thing we got.
Yeah.
Slava (25:11.118)
That's a fantastic question. I like it. I can't give you a clear answer because it's something to think through, but if she's restored, so she's quote unquote dead and she's restored. Knowing what I know about the Cradle series and it's literally what I have read in the books and learned from researching the genre and learned from JT giving us a deep dive, a deeper dive into the genre. I think it stays with her.
just makes more sense. Yeah.
Yeah, because the, and you'll see this in later books, like even though monarchs are super powerful, they still have limitations, right? Like they have, have an inability to overcome the dread gods as just one example. But there's also things that they can't do, which we'll find out as this tournament progresses because the tournament's not over, right? Like next up we have a winter steel where Yeren is going to get trained by another sword sage and.
figure out whether she can make it through the rest of the tournament.
Yeah, I'm ex- excited for that. Who's the sword sage?
Jonathan (26:22.52)
Did that not happen at end of the book? Here.
I have a detailed plot summary here. me go to the bottom of it. The first mention of a sword, or the last mention of a sword sage towards the end of the book is Yeren is losing hope that they will make it in time for the tournament. Fortunately, winter sage Min Shui arrives to help them. She carries a sword that is a twin of the one Yeren inherited from the sword sage.
Okay, then I must be mixing up with winter steel.
Well, let's move on to the next thing, but I do want to throw out one little side quest for us before we do. If you had to train under one character from Uncrowned, Jonathan, who would it be?
Do they have to be so like uncrowned the book or the uncrowned King tournament? So they have to be a participant.
Slava (27:11.754)
Let's say, Uncrowned Tournament.
So it's a tie between Zeal or what's the name of that black dragon guy? How do I say it? Nyan Blackflame? Is that right? And now that I think about it, like, because he's crazy, I don't think training under him would go very well. So actually it'll just be Zeal. Zeal is my choice. I mean, Aethon's a great choice too, but I don't think Zeal gets enough attention. And so I'd like to, and you'll understand a little bit more of this when you see him in a journey in the
I think so.
Jonathan (27:45.056)
not too distant future in one of the other books where he reunites with the team to help them. But his system, his path is super fun and unique. So I would train under Zeal.
Okay, I think I would pick North Strider.
He's not, you just said it has to be participant.
Well, he's a participant in a way.
Because he's a judge? Well if that's case then I want to be trained by the hound, the Abaddon hound.
Slava (28:13.63)
Okay, well, there we go. You're, hounding against my Strider.
Well, Hound has ascended, so we'll see how that goes for you.
Well, I have the the tenacity of Yeren and the drive of Linden. So your hound is going to be mounted on a a fireplace somewhere in North Strider's room.
Mm-hmm sure sure back in another one of his pocket worlds
But really, let's move on to a different theme once you pick one.
Jonathan (28:41.55)
Well, if you're talking about the persistence and perseverance of Linden and Yeren, I think it's just an easy transition, especially because I can talk to Zeal's persistence. You know, we met him originally in Ghostwater. Let me pause for a second. The theme that I'm picking is resilience and perseverance, where characters have to face impossible odds and choose whether or not they're going to give up or persevere and see what happens. So for me, because I chose Zeal as my side quest answer,
I always love seeing him come back into the story. so seeing that the Beast King basically had him join the team and Zeal being an entrant into the tournament, even though he has kind of had, you know, we, and we talked about this, I think in the last book, he's this reluctant character. He's like, well, I guess if I have to be here, I guess it was two books ago, cause it was Ghostwater. Guess I'll kill myself or guess I'll die. Right?
I guess I'll kill myself.
But he's in this competition. And we even see a little bit, if I remember correctly, that he's got a little hope. He's like, I mean, if I can make it far enough, the monarchs could fix me. But he doesn't really think that he'll get that far, especially after we see him play through that crown game. So, but he does. He constantly, even though reluctantly, has this resilience and perseverance to him where he's like, I guess I'll keep going. That's one of the things I love about Zeal.
even in the face of adversity and knowing that his body is shattered and he can't fix it, he keeps moving forward reluctantly.
Slava (30:20.802)
I think that juxtaposed with Lyndon's injury and recovery really plays well into themes that Will is trying to, you know, unfold here, kind of show us or unveil. So Lyndon, after his defeat at Pride's hands, he pushes through the pain. He analyzes his mistakes, withdraws, and they're both devising new strategies to address his weaknesses.
And it's his refusal not to be defined by his setbacks that epitomizes the perseverance for, for Lyndon while Zeal has already sort of succumbed in some way to his situation. He's like, well, I guess I'll die. know, or, well, this is the only thing left to do. There's nothing else left to do. I just need to do this thing and hopefully it'll work out. That's still perseverance. That's still resilience.
100%.
I'm not downplaying it and I'm not juxtaposing it as a comparison of the two. One is good, one is bad, but there is a comparison in the differences. And Linden is just, refuse to be in this situation and I'm going forward and changing whatever I have to change to get ahead. While Zeal says, well, I'm in this situation. I don't know what to do. I guess I have to take the first step in front of me and then the next step and then the next step. So like two sides of one coin.
Yeah, it makes me wonder though, how, like what, what has Will gone through that has him contemplating this idea of resilience and perseverance, right? As an author.
Slava (32:00.879)
he'll tell us when he comes on the show next time. You want to take a friendship and companionship?
Hopefully.
Well, in terms of Will and his writing, it also makes me question his friendship and companionship theme that we see regularly, not just in this book, but we also see it in Last Horizon. I want to say it was partly there, but less mature in the House of Blades trilogy. But I'm wondering, because people usually have gone through something, which is what they write about, if it's good writing, except for that one woman that you...
Like to quote from Tolkien and Lewis that they make fun of Amy McMaster's in or something like that. I don't remember what her name
I don't remember her name. I just remember how god-awful her writing is.
Jonathan (32:46.318)
But like what, what were Will's friendships like growing up? Like, did he not have them and this is what he wanted, or did he have these and this is what he's writing about? Or did he just make it up? Right? Like it could be any of them. But the third theme that I wanted to pick your brain on a little bit was this idea of friendship and companionship and the opposite of that for Lyndon's team, because he doesn't really get that in terms of being pitted against his friends and companions that he doesn't want to fight.
And you brought it up a little earlier where he is conflicted because he's like, I don't want to fight Yaren. So what, what thoughts do you have on that in terms of the core, the previously core team, Ethan, Lyndon, Yaren and Mercy and the conflicts that they. Encountered in this Mercy, I think is just like used to having to fight people and tries to make friends because she didn't have any, even though she's utterly powerful. But for the rest of them, what do you think?
Well, you just stole my answer, but I'll try to expand on what you asked and answered for me.
I'm sure you've got a war chest of research that you've done.
I have a bushel of re-
Jonathan (33:55.118)
In chapter 7, third paragraph down second line, Mercy says
Let's do a two-pronged answer, just like you set me up and sort of even answered, said what I was going to put forth in my answer. So the core team, Lyndon, Yaron and Mercy, Ethan, they all push each other and sometimes they push each other to their limits. And I think their shared experiences and their individual experiences, they inform what's going on in the moment. And that...
bolsters their willingness to support one another in the face of these overwhelming odds that they face. Whether it's before the King Tournament, after, during, this amplifies their individual growth. So they're together as a team. They have individual experiences that are intertwined with that. And then they try to help each other. So they grow individually, they grow as a team.
And that's what makes them great companions in a journey such as this. Mercy's support of Lyndon, her bubbly personality, her friendship with Yeren, even though Yeren is kind of like, ooh, back away at first. All that is, I think culminates for me in this book and it might be expanded in later books, but it culminates for me in her unwavering belief in Lyndon.
While others doubt him, she backs him up because she has whatever a hunch about him or at her power level she knows something that others don't. This showcases the power of friendship. Both of them, both prongs in this answer showcases the power of friendship and it fosters confidence and resilience in the other, the one receiving, whether it's Lyndon's support.
Slava (35:57.134)
her belief or the push that he gets from Yeren and Aethon. And the loyalty from both, I think, fosters confidence and resilience in Lynden, but it works, you know, in other ways too. It works, you know, between Mercy and Yeren, between Lynden and Yeren, Aethon and the team. Together, they build strong bonds, which in turn builds them as individuals and builds the team into a more cohesive.
fighting group.
I like what you said there with people pushing Lyndon forward because I think he gets the opposite of that this book because the Akura clan's like, you have a debt to pay and that is one of the driving forces because he could have just said, yeah, I'm not going to fight for you. okay, you know, do, do your worst. Right. But he didn't. And so then instead of his driving force being his friends.
Well, he kind of does, right? He kind of does. He says in his, well, some of his internal monologue, he's like, well, what if I just leave? Forget it all. Whatever happens happens. Then he says, no, this is something I need to do because I would disappoint Yaron and this, I'm paraphrasing, I would bring dishonor. This is something that I need to do because it's the right thing to do. And Lyndon being Lyndon, oh, and this probably get me farther ahead to where I need to go.
Yeah. And I don't think he's dumb, right? Like he's been bullied his whole life. So this is just another time where he's feeling bullied and he's like, well, you know, like you said, he reluctantly is going, training doesn't hurt and the Akuras have a lot of money. So I guess I'll put this to use, but that driving force is the Akuras. Like it's not his friends, at least from what we can see.
Slava (37:44.778)
No, not directly. I think his friends pushing in the previous books and his bond with them is parallel to what the Akuras are doing, or at least even if it's in the background, it's still a pretty powerful force. Akura is right in the forefront saying, this is what you're going to do, bottom line, end of story, period. So he has to grapple with that in the immediate, but...
what his friends have done for him by pushing him in previous books, I think is one of the catalysts that helps him make the decision. And yes, he's not dumb, but he's also had six books of Yeren, more so than others, and Ethan, and definitely Orthos, challenging him, pushing him, and shaping some of the mentality that he has in this book.
Yeah, exactly. So I kind of see it less as a parallel and more of an inverse because they're driving, they're expecting a debt to be paid to make them look good, which is, part of the culture. But I could see why you'd call it a parallel because it's still getting the same outcome.
Right. And, know, I even walked it back a little bit, said, even if it's taking a backseat to it, it still is informed by his previous experiences specifically with his team.
Yeah. Which leads us to the question, what themes stick out to you guys, our listeners? Is there one that really stands out to you or one that you like to think about that you see in a lot of different books? Is there one that, you know, you are like, this again, maybe it's friendship and companionship and you should get some friends. Or maybe that's why you came to this casual book club to look for friends. And then you're like, eh, I guess I got these two dweebs.
Slava (39:30.082)
or leave yours.
Slava (39:36.054)
All three. All the above. All the above. Yeah. So what's next in our journey Jonathan?
Interesting.
Well, we've got a short time left, but we can fit in if we want to a discussion about the genre. know a lot of times in the past, we have spoken specifically about Zanzia and Wuxia specifically, but I have a few thoughts on this book that this is kind of structured from that JT has mentioned to us before, Journey from the West. It's by no means a thesis of thoughts.
but it was just a few things that I was drumming up when I was thinking through the episode that we're filming today. So for those who may remember or may not, the book that this is based on, if you will, if I can use that term, is this book called Journey to the West. And Journey to the West is a 16th century Chinese classic written by Wu Chang En.
Lay it on me.
Jonathan (40:39.018)
If I'm not slaughtering that. It has this idea of a hero's journey and cultivation where the goal is to get stronger. It has the idea of paths and sacred arts, if you will, in some sense. It's not exactly that because it's more of a path to enlightenment and a pilgrimage. It's got this concept of power and transformation and mastery. The main character whose name I'm going to try and remember is...
it's, Sun Wu Kong, the monkey King. He goes through a long transformational journey where he himself is mischievous and a trickster to becoming a disciplined and powerful spiritual warrior, which is different from how Lyndon acts as our main character, who is not a trickster. And so there's a bit of a juxtaposition there. If you are familiar with journey to the West and it's reading.
But the tie in there could be the personal revelation. I've never read Journey to the West, but I'm sure there's some sort of introspection and personal revelation that he gets. Well, the introspection is what he does. The personal revelation is what he gets to becoming more disciplined fighter from a trickster, similar to Lyndon's revelation about his hunger for progress or Yaren's struggle with her bloodshadow. These two things, they echo...
the introspective nature of the genre, right? So does this guy based on your research, does he go through the same thing in Journey to the West where there's stuff he has to understand about himself and then adapt in order to progress from trickster to disciplined fighter.
Yeah, he does have to discipline. like the fact that he has to learn discipline means that he has to master those things, right? And he even has his own version of Aethon in his journey where there's a master student dynamic. The master's name is Trippitaka and Wukong constantly pushes back against the rules imposed by him from his master. But eventually as he continues to grow in discipline for himself, starts to learn that the guidance his master's giving him is
Jonathan (42:48.044)
to help him grow and not arbitrary. So those are just a few little things, like the biggest thing that I was thinking about is fairy tales and mythology. And in Journey to the West, Wukong constantly has to battle demons and beasts and spirits. And it's one of these main overarching tropes that happens in a progression or cultivation novel where the main character has all these things they have to keep overcoming. so like, if we think back to Unsold,
where Linden couldn't even fight a tree remnant. Nowadays with what he's at for power level wise, he would probably just stare at it and it would run the other direction. So this constant overcoming of demons and beasts and spirits.
I see another connection to the cradle series and even this current book is this cosmic or existential stakes, Yep. The, the beasts and demons that these guys are fighting, the looming threat of the dread gods reflects this genre's penchant for blending, you know, I think personal ambition with grand existential stakes. So he's a trickster, but there's stuff that's going around him that's happening around him.
that is dangerous or it poses existential threats. Same thing in Cradle, the characters' individual journeys are framed within this cosmic scale narrative. It makes their growth relevant, not just for themselves, but for the whole world. And in this tournament, it's almost undeniable. Well, it is undeniable for this particular book.
But as Will has taken us on a journey from book one to seven here, I think that's very clear, at least for me.
Jonathan (44:37.024)
I agree. That's pretty clear. That actually spins off another thought of mine though, kind of in tandem and like with what I was thinking before, because I like to think about mythology because these are some of the oldest stories we have, which is what led me to think about Journey of the West in terms of cradle because it's like based on it. But I also think like the different demons and struggles and things that we have to overcome is also well taught, at least when I was growing up.
in our Greek mythology classes or Roman mythology where these demigods or humans end up having to face these huge struggles that seem unearthly or grandiose, you will, like Medusa, the Minotaur, Cyclops, right? Like these fantastical creatures and things that they had to overcome to become mythos, to become world renowned for the Greek timeframe, right? But the same thing happens almost in our own lives when we talk to each other where
You know, you can tell me, Hey, I had to overcome this thing. You might not be fighting Minotaurs and Medusa's, but based on some of your, some of your past, and the people that you've worked with, I could see how you might embellish that during a story, you know, in previous jobs, if you will.
Well, I don't know if I embellish it. think if I understand what you're saying correctly, I can use those things to tell a greater story or use it as an example, but I've embellished nothing.
You've never embellished before? Okay, sure.
Slava (46:06.183)
Not the stories I told you about my work or my past.
Right. But that's what I'm saying is like, do you think that Perseus really fought a woman who had snakes for hair? Probably not, but she had something that was similar enough or akin to it that when he went back, because I have, my belief is that a lot of these mythos are formed from actual people who did great things and then they became myth. And so like when you're telling me a story about something that happened at work or, you know, know, so and so did blah, blah. We'll call him Doug. Doug did something stupid at your last job.
And it got you, you know, putting hot water or something like that. But Doug is the Minotaur chasing you around the labyrinth because he had you do all these things and somehow he got promoted above you and it was dumb, but like he did and blah, blah, blah, blah. And like it becomes an evolution of what physically took place if I was to stand there and watch your day go by. But what it seems like when you retell the story to friends and family is it seems bigger because.
That's how it felt because we're mixing emotion into the storytelling. Do you ever see that movie, big fish? Okay. Well, did you ever see Forrest Gump? Okay. So to me, it's the same thing here, right? Like where these things happen now, Forrest Gump is not the same as big fish, but big fish is like this father who dies or whatever. It's been a while, so I'm probably going to get some of this wrong, but, he's retelling stories of his life. And then later we meet the characters he was talking about and it's not exactly what.
Yes.
Jonathan (47:34.666)
He said there's like conjoined twins and like the world's tallest man and da da da da. there was even a Western like this back in the day, I think it was called Tall Tales. If you tell the story as a storyteller would, which is you embellish things for narrative engagement or audience entertainment or both. I think that going to the market as a kid with a cow and trading it for three beans could become a mythos of sorts.
Everything you're saying, I don't disagree with. I'm just having a difficult time understanding what you meant by me embellishing stories of my life. I don't see the connection there. Maybe you helped me understand. Maybe you helped the audience understand. Maybe the audience can help me understand. What the hell is Jonathan talking about? Comment below.
Comment below. That's, that's the, that's today's engagement. Please comment below the nonsense that Jonathan's touting off about. Great. This is quite the podcast.
I'm genuinely curious. not trying to be difficult about it. I'm having a hard time putting the two and two together.
I guess to summarize, myself, know, Jonathan GPT, I am trying to equate the stories in our lives and how we share them with others can sometimes be embellished to be bigger than they are because we're filtering them through the emotions we felt in the moment of the story when we lived it, depending on how that embellishment goes and the facts that the recie- the audience receives.
Jonathan (49:06.442)
If they then go share that story with another friend of theirs that knows you or something, it can grow into that Medusa has snakes for hair. And somehow that relates to Lyndon.
And I forgot to tell you where I purposefully held from you the part of the story where Doug and I went into the courtyard and I tore him in twain with my broadsword.
As you should, like they used to do in the good old days.
Are there any final thoughts on the Western from
Journey to the West. Nope. Clearly I've done a really great job confusing you and
Slava (49:44.96)
One could say you embellished.
I didn't though. That is the thing. I didn't. I was trying to expand our discussion of genre relating specifically to the book that this is inspired by.
Well, I think I can end with this, and this is a bit of a tenuous connection, but I think it ends the segment pretty well. The monarchs in this story, in this series, the cradle series, they're these immortal archetypes, right? They represent like a Coromallus, for example, they represent almost the untenable heights of cultivation. Just kind of typical of Zenzia's exploration of immortal beings and whatnot. But.
They serve as an inspiration and a reminder of how characters like Lyndon have to go, how far they have to go and what heights they can achieve. That's where your mythos and embellishments point really makes sense for me is these stories, we identify with them, they remind us that we too can persevere over greater odds, whether it's Doug or a literal Medusa.
or a queer malice, whatever it is.
Jonathan (51:02.402)
For those who can't see the video, when Slava said Medusa, he looked at me and then rolled his eyes. you know, do with that whatever you will.
Do with that whatever you will.
Thanks, friend.
because I'm outing you to the audience? For your disrespect?
Well folks, that ends this side quest. Make sure to share this episode with fellow book lovers and make sure to join us next time for more adventures. Until then, happy questing and we'll see you next time.