Women’s Training Needs With Lauren Colnso-Semple - A Discussion of Training Volume, Rest, and Cycle Syncing

In this episode of the Lifting Lindsay podcast, guest Lauren Colnso-Semple discusses her research on how menstrual cycles and oral contraceptives affect women's muscle protein synthesis in response to resistance training. The conversation spans topics such as the effectiveness of programming workouts around menstrual cycles for optimizing muscle growth, strength, and fat loss, the impact of hormonal birth control on exercise adaptation, and the importance of individual variation in training volume and recovery needs. Lauren, holding a PhD from McMaster University and a Master's in exercise science, shares insights from her studies and experience, addressing misconceptions about training during different phases of the menstrual cycle and the overall impact of sex-based differences in training outcomes.

Topics:
00:08 Introducing Lauren Colnso-Semple
01:11 What did you learn about oral contraceptives?
07:24 How this affects perimenopause or premenopause
11:29 When do women see a lowering of strength?
19:01 How difficult is it to track and monitor hormonal changes in women?
28:05 Learning to listen to experts
32:45 What are your thoughts on volume for hypertrophy in women?
41:57 How do rest times compare for men vs women?

Creators & Guests

Host

Lindsay

Wife and mother of three. I have a deep passion for learning and teaching. I also really love lifting weights and fitness.

What is LiftingLindsay's More Than Fitness?

Dive into the joy of fitness with Lindsay and other guests exploring how it goes well and beyond the gym floor, the number on the scale, the size of your waist or the calories you're counting.

Lindsay: Okay.

Welcome to the Lifting Lindsay podcast.

Today I'm really excited to
have a guest on, uh, Lauren

Colnso-Semple, and I'm gonna have
her go ahead and introduce herself.

Lauren: Thanks so much for having me on.

I have a PhD from McMaster University
where I studied the influence

of the menstrual cycle phase and
oral contraceptive pill phase

on the muscle protein synthesis,
response to resistance exercise.

I have a master's degree in exercise
science from the University of

South Florida where I studied
resistance training volumes for

strength and hypertrophy in women.

And before I got into higher education and
the the science world, I was a personal

trainer and a group fitness instructor.

So I definitely come from a lens of
curiosity where it started, just for me

trying to optimize my own results and the
training programs for that of my clients.

Lindsay: That is awesome.

I did not know, I've heard you on a
bunch of different podcasts, but I

actually didn't know that you studied,
oral contraceptives and pretty much

how that influenced what was, what,
what exactly did you study with that?

I wanna hear more about that.

That's really interesting.

Lauren: Yeah, so typically with oral
contraceptives, you're taking an

active synthetic hormone for 21 days.

Sometimes it's 24 days, but
typically it's 21 days, and then,

uh, for seven days you're taking.

A placebo or an inactive pill, and that's
when you experience a withdrawal bleed.

So it's not actually a menstrual
period, it's just a withdrawal

bleed because you're no longer
on the synthetic hormones.

And so, and I've, I've, I've spoken about
this before and perhaps your listeners

are aware, but doing this type of research

uh, where you compare one
group to another group.

So let's say we were comparing
people on hormonal birth control to

people off hormonal birth control.

Sometimes the results can be a bit
muddied because we're also different.

And so what I was looking at is in
the same individual, let's look at

what happens during the active phase,
so when they're taking the hormones,

and then is it any different during
the week where they're not taking the

hormones within the same individual?

Lindsay: Okay.

Okay.

This is really exciting.

This makes me even more excited to
talk to you about this topic because I

invited Lauren on to talk about, I feel
like a hot topic right now on social

media, a lot of women are being told,
will you, in order to optimize your,

muscle growth or your performance, um.

Yeah, or even fat loss.

We really need to make sure
that our training is timed

really well with our cycle.

So there's so many things that I feel
like just that alone, women get lost in

'cause they think, oh, okay, so when I am
on my period, I can't be training hard.

Or they don't even really
know what, what's part of the.

The menstrual phase they're not
supposed to be training in and

they're told they should do yoga
during that time or not do anything.

And so I'm really excited.

I'm gonna have you start, if you don't
mind talking about the, maybe the hormonal

changes that happen and why people are
saying we should change our training.

Specifically,

I think they're referring
to more of weightlifting.

Maybe not.

That's just kind of my world.

Lauren: That lifting is sort of my
world as well, but this is certainly

a research question that is a hot
topic in the endurance training world,

in the the vascular research world.

Um, so there, there are a lot of, um.

Kind of niches in exercise nutrition
and metabolism science that are starting

to be more and more interested in the
influence of the, the menstrual cycle.

And from a scientific perspective,
it it, it's also a kind of a

bigger picture issue of women being
historically excluded from studies.

And part of that is because of this
potential concern that, oh, there

might be an influence of this or
that and we need to standardize.

Training or testing in research
around cycle phases, which is

logistically really, really difficult.

And so a lot of scientists have
historically said, Hey, I just study men.

It's easier.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, or perhaps they don't have the
capability or the resources to do all

of this cycle tracking and hormone
measurements and ovulation testing,

that that would be, you know, required.

To publish research in women if, and I
say if cycle phase is a, an influential

factor in the outcomes of interest.

So when we think about the menstrual
cycle, there is a lot of misunderstanding

here because when I say cycle, some
people, as you say, hear menstrual period.

The cycle is the, the full
cycle from bleed to bleed.

So the first.

Five, seven days or so of your menstrual
cycle is your menstrual period.

But the, the rest of that cycle is when
we actually see the more substantial

hormone fluctuations, and we're primarily
talking about fluctuations in estradiol,

progesterone, and then for a brief
time luteinizing hormone and follicle

stimulating hormone, and obviously the
primary purpose of these fluctuations,

and of the menstrual cycle in general, is
for reproductive function, but because.

Of our interest as exercise physiologists
in the influence of hormones, and we've

explored that in men for a long time.

Um, there, there are some questions
about, well, if you do an acute

performance test, like let's say your
one rep max, or if we do training over

several months and we're able to measure
muscle growth, is menstrual cycle phase

meaning, you know, a few days here or
a few days there, a week here, a week

there where we're seeing a different

hormone profile going to influence
those outcomes of interest.

So that muscle hypertrophy,
that strength performance.

And I'll just add that if you're
somebody who is on hormonal birth

control, whether that is a birth
control pill or an IUD, uh, you

don't have a menstrual cycle anymore.

So when you take a hormonal contraceptive,
it suppresses those endogenous,

are natural, uh, hormone fluctuations
that occur during the, the natural cycle,

natural menstrual cycle because you're
introducing these synthetic hormones.

So this wouldn't actually apply to
the, the hormonal birth control users.

This is specifically to those who
are what we would call, you know,

quote unquote naturally cycling.

So they're not taking any hormones
and they are, uh, pre meni menopause.

Lindsay: I love that you brought
that up, because that is so key.

There are a lot of women who are on
hormonal birth control, and yet they're

getting pulled into this because they
have a time period where they bleed,

and so they think that that's, oh,
everything is still functioning as usual

except for I just can't get pregnant,
and so this still applies to me.

I need to buy a program like this.

And you also brought up those that are
going, like you're in perimenopause

or post menopause, like I, I feel
like that's often not talked about

too, because you look at perimenopause
and the shifts in hormones with women

and they're all over the place and
they're so different per person.

This clearly isn't talking to those
groups of individuals on hormonal birth

control and like peri post menopause.

Did I get that right?

Lauren: That's

right.

Lindsay: Okay.

Lauren: And one thing that is sort
of in, uh, you, the perimenopause

or individuals and the premenopausal
individuals have in common is what you

just pointed out, the difference between
individuals and the fact that the hormones

can kind of be all over the place.

Because what we see in this textbook.

Diagram of the menstrual cycle is
that it's 28 days and during the

first 14 days, all the hormones are
low and then estradiol increases.

And so we're seeing this estradiol peak
right in the middle of the cycle or right

just before the middle of of the cycle.

And then right in the middle we see.

Uh, luteinizing hormone peak, and
that's indicative of ovulation.

And then during the second half
of the cycle, so post ovulation,

we see progesterone increase
and then peak sort of mid, uh.

second half or what we would call
the luteal phase, and we also see

a secondary peak in estradiol.

It's not quite as high as the first
pre ovulatory peak, but we we're still

seeing moderately high estradiol there.

So just to kind of simplify it, we'd say.

The, when you're on your period,
all the hormones are low.

The week or so after we see an
increase in estradiol and then the

increase in, in, uh, glut luteinizing
hormone and there's your ovulation.

And then during the, the latter
half of the cycle, it's cat

characterized by high progesterone
and moderately high estradiol.

Now, when we actually measure
those hormones in different people

through multiple cycles, it looks.

At the individual level, almost
never like it does in that

really pretty textbook picture.

And what I mean by that is that the
timing of those fluctuations differs

from women to women and the magnitude
of those fluctuations, meaning,

uh, if you, if you Google menstrual
cycle hormone fluctuations, you see.

These really substantial
hormone spikes when you actually

measure people's blood hormones.

Some people have very small spikes
and that's just normal for them.

So what's quote unquote normal?

Um, meaning reproductive function
as far as we know is normal.

Um, and healthy and cycle or bleed
to bleed is normal and regular.

And these aren't people who have.

Any sort of menstrual cycle dysfunction.

Um, it's a, a regular cycle and these
are healthy individuals, but the,

the cycle length or the timing of
the ovulation, or the extent to which

these hormones spike is really, really
variable from one woman to another.

So we can't really say, well, this is the
hormone profile for everyone across the

board, and that's where it starts to be.

Really questionable when people, uh,
market these kind of one size fits

all programs in the fitness space.

Lindsay: So, with that,
let's go, let's review.

When do women usually see,
uh, a, a lowering of strength,

maybe recovery and performance?

'cause a lot of women, like we
talked about at the beginning,

they think, oh, well this is just
talking about when I'm bleeding.

So during bleed, that's when,
and you said hormones are low.

Women think, oh, because hormones
are low, then I don't have

strength, I don't have recovery.

All of those things.

But when is it actually, when
we see strength recovery, all

those things be hit a little bit.

Lauren: Statistically speaking,
uh, there's, there's one good

meta-analysis, uh, on this topic.

And they, and they did find that.

Performance.

And that was exercise performance overall,
not just strength, um, but that it, it

might be slightly lower, uh, like during
that, uh, earlier half of the cycle,

but it wasn't statistically significant.

There were a ton of flaws when it
comes to the methods of the study.

And so their kind of practical takeaway
was that this should be, um, from a

kind of fitness prescription or athlete.

Prescription point of view, it
should just be individualized and we

shouldn't be making any sort of blanket
statements around during this time.

You should expect performance to be
reduced or you should expect to feel worse

because the reality is that might be true
for some individuals, but, uh, there's

certainly not enough evidence to suggest
that this is sort of across the board,

something that all women will experience.

Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.

What are your thoughts of, I know
Stacy Sims talks about this a lot, that

it's usually the peak of progesterone,
um, where we see moderate levels of

estradiol and a peak of progesterone,
and that's usually when, uh,

strength we're seeing that lowered.

Lauren: I've never seen any evidence
to suggest that that would be the case.

The assumption that
progesterone is somehow.

Antagonistic or catabolic or going to
negatively affect muscle growth really

has, has never been proven in cell
cultural work, culture work in animal

studies, or certainly not in humans.

We know very, very little about the
influence of progesterone on muscle

period, and we know a bit more about
the influence of the sun hormones

overall and a bit more about.

Estradiol from some animal model studies,
but in those animal models, they basically

shut down all hormone production, and then
they see that that's problematic for the

maintenance of muscle and muscle growth.

So without any of these ovarian hormones,
it it, it appears that that's problematic.

And with the reintroduction of
a synthetic hormone, a synthetic

estradiol, then it appears to kind
of recover some of that inability

to grow or maintain muscle growth.

But that's a very, very extreme
model that's obviously not

translatable to humans because in
the human menstrual cycle, we're

talking about really short term.

Fluctuations not a sustained
suppression of all of those hormones.

And even when we think about menopause,
that's a gradual decline of hormones.

It's not sort of an on off switch.

And so when you're, you're doing a, a
rodent study and you're doing a, what we

would call an ovary, ectomy mo, removing
the ovaries, shutting down hormone

production, that's not something that.

Is really comparable to humans, but
it's mechanistically interesting

because we can say, well, when the
hormones are completely shut down, then

muscle growth and muscle maintenance
is, uh, is obviously not optimized.

Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.

That's really interesting.

I, I wish I had this study in front of me.

I, um, I can't remember the name of
it or anything, but I, I did see one

study that they did where the first.

The first half of the menstrual cycle,
they noticed that there was better

growth, muscle growth, and then the
second half of the menstrual cycle is

actually where they saw that lowering.

So their suggestion, or the whomever it
was that I was reading, their suggestion

was, okay, so first half of the cycle,
which does include bleeding, um, that you

should be lifting weights the second half.

Don't, don't lift weights.

It's pointless.

'cause you're not gonna grow.

Have you heard of that?

Lauren: Yeah.

I'm familiar with that study.

Um, and I, I would love to
see it replicated because it's

a, a very, very bold claim.

What we know just as fitness professionals
is that consistency is important, right.

And so the idea that this effect or lack
thereof is so powerful that it would make

sense to prescribe one programming, uh,
one, one program for half of your cycle,

and then to not lift for the other half.

It is essentially if you, if you're just
saying 14 days, 14 days, it's cutting

your resistance training volume in half.

And what, what we know in about
muscle protein synthesis about

muscle growth is that it's the
repeated stimulus that is required

in order to promote muscle growth.

And so by just.

Stopping your training for
for half the, the month.

I just can't see how that
would benefit not only muscle

growth, but also strength gains.

Because strength performance requires
practice, which requires, you know,

repeat, uh, performance, re repeat,
uh, sessions and whatever else you're

doing for the other half, whether
it's yoga or jogging or stretching.

Um, I mean, it's sort of the same
thing if, if then you stop doing that.

For, for the next two weeks.

We're not gonna see a lot
of progress there too.

And so my concern about anybody making
these recommendations is that the,

the woman who is implementing them is
actually really sacrificing her gains,

whether it be strength or muscle growth.

Um, and from a just behavioral
perspective, motivational perspective,

we need some consistency in order to
maintain the habits that we're forming.

Um, and so I, I, I find that
that problematic as well.

I, I don't know anyone who has ever
actually attempted to structure their

program this way, just even anecdotally.

So I, I couldn't say if there
are people who are doing it

and, and loving the results.

But, uh, just from what we know
about exercise science prescription

and mu muscle adaptations.

Um, I, I, I struggle to see why
and when that would make sense.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Do you find, um, any use to,
to trying, well, I have two

questions that come to mind.

Do you, how hard is it to actually track
and monitor or hormonal changes in women?

'cause I would imagine that in doing
research around this, that that would

be kind of one of the, the limiting.

Um, factors.

That'd be really hard to make sure
that we're even monitoring that.

Well, and the other question is, so
is there any point to try to gauge or

change programming or what are your
suggestions after studying all this?

Lauren: It's incredibly difficult
to, to track, um, and to do

all of this well, which is why.

I am hesitant to put a lot of stock
in some of the papers that are out

there because not everybody has done
what we would say, uh, implemented

the kind of gold standard methodology
to make sure that you are measuring.

Strength or growth in the
phase in which you intend to.

And what I mean by that is we can
discuss a menstrual cycle as 28 days

with ovulation occurring in the middle.

But in reality, a normal
menstrual cycle can be as short

as 21 days, as long as 37 days.

And sometimes people don't
have a consistent cycle

length from one to the next.

And ovulation doesn't
necessarily occur in the middle.

And so that could mean for some people
they have the a, a much shorter first

phase or follicular phase and a much
longer second phase or, or lute phase.

So when we think about prescribing
training around that in the the 28

day example with equal phase lengths.

Logistically that's straightforward.

Whether it makes sense or not
is a, is another question.

But from a logistical perspective, yes,
you can say 14 and 14, but what do you

do with a person who ovulates earlier
and only has a 10 day follicular phase

and then has a 20 day luteal phase?

Are they, are they only getting a couple
of lifting sessions in and then they

have to stretch for the next 20 days?

You know, it's, um.

It's, it's logistically really complicated
and very few women actually know what

menstrual cycle phase they're in.

We know, okay, this is the
first day of your period.

That's an easy one, but in
what happens from from bleeding

stage to the next menstruation.

It, there's, there's no real way for
you to know unless you are actively

tracking your ovulation, which you can
do, um, by measuring me, sorry, measuring

luteinizing hormone either with, uh,
urine reactive strip or with a blood test.

People will typically do this, uh, when
they're trying to track their fertility.

And we do this in research because
as I said, it's really important

that, that we know exactly when the.

When the phases start and finish, meaning
we have to know when you're ovulating.

And if we were to just assume, hey,
everyone has a 28 day cycle, everyone

ovulates on day 14, we would get it
really, really wrong in the science.

And so when we try to translate that
to practice for fitness professionals

or for women who are interested
in optimizing their training.

If they are taking on a program that
makes that assumption, it's also

problematic because you don't actually
know that, that you're in the, the phase

that that program assumes you're in.

And then of course, we have the blood
work to measure hormone levels, which

in my work we will do at various points
throughout the cycle to determine

that, you know, this hormone profile
is really what we would expect.

During this particular day of your
cycle, and as I said before, that is

highly variable as well between women and
also from cycle to cycle in some cases.

So this is way, way more complex
than these types of programs

would lead you to belief.

Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.

Yeah, I um, I was really, really
curious 'cause Stacy Sims, I

feel like was one that was.

Um, more outspoken about this and how,
um, this can be utilized with athletes.

And, um, and, and I don't wanna make,
I'm not making this about her, I'm just

taking the information that was presented.

So, um, in taking a course from her,
'cause I'm like, I really want to learn,

like, why do you believe this way?

Like, why?

And is there something to this?

Can I learn something from this?

And the idea was that, post ovulation,
the degradation of the, the follicle is

what stimulates the rise in progesterone.

And then the high progesterone,
with the, the lower estradiol is

actually what would, would make
an athlete or, you know, strength,

uh, training athlete feel weaker.

And I just thought to myself, but
what about those that, that, I mean.

When you have anovulatory cycles,
when you're not ovulating.

So then does that not all happen?

And then how do you know that, that
there's just, just so much around this?

Why can't we just say, Hey, when you
don't feel as as recovered, as strong,

and you just listen to your body and
take it down the notch, like why do

we have to make it so complicated?

I don't knowledge of your
thoughts on that to Stacy

Lauren: Sims has I, I
don't know her personally.

Um, I, I am, I know that she has a
PhD, but to my knowledge, she hasn't

really done research in this area.

She's published review papers, meaning
she's made commentaries on, on the topic.

But I'm not aware of any actual
study that she's done that would.

Really lend to expertise in this area that
would really lend to the understanding of

this tremendous level of inter-individual
variability that I described.

And so I, I, I would love to know exactly,
you know, where that is coming from.

But to your question, can't we just say,
you know, leave it to the individual.

I think that.

Especially in fitness and nutrition and in
the supplement world and all of it, right?

It, you get more attention if you
say, I have the way and I, and I'm

gonna give you the answer, and you
should be doing something different.

Instead of being the person who says, you
know what, it probably doesn't matter.

People wanna hear, yes, it matters.

And this is how, how you can
optimize it and this is how you

can get that extra, um, fat loss
or muscle growth or what have you.

People don't wanna hear,
you know what, like.

You're probably gonna get
the same results either way.

Don't worry about it.

Um, and that's how programs sell.

That's how supplements sell.

That's how diets become popularized.

That's just sort of the
nature of the business.

Lindsay: It is so true.

Just teaching, um, habits and just
instilling those habits, making

programming, you know, enjoyable.

And depending on your
goal, you might have to be.

And, how advanced you are.

You, you may have to optimize some things
here and there, but maybe you don't,

maybe you just wanna lose five, 10 pounds.

And it's like, do you know what
the optimization of your training

programs to your cycle really doesn't
matter for, for you and your goal?

Right.

So it's, it's so interesting.

I think you nailed it with
social media right there.

It has, definitely has,
its its pros and cons.

I think one thing that's really hard too.

Because I, I have my beliefs around this,
um, this subject that, like I just said,

why can't we just listen to our body?

And sometimes too, I've noticed with
individuals when they're like, oh

yeah, I went in and this time my
cycle was a little different and I

noticed I was weaker at this point.

I'm like, but do you realize how
many variables go into how you

go walk into a training session.

Was your sleep crappy?

Was your nutrition crappy was,
and there's so plethora of things.

Were you able to recover well enough
from your last training about like,

there are so many things that I feel
like how can we even know if we're just

going off of our feeling of, well, I'm
a little bit tired, so my suggestion

to people has always been well.

If I'm a little bit tired because I
didn't get enough sleep, or my nutrition

sucked, or recovery was somehow impaired,
I'm gonna treat it the same way as if,

well, around the same time of my cycle.

I always feel sluggish.

I'm gonna listen to my body.

I want to keep the the habit and the
routine of showing up for myself that

day, but I'm not going to be doing a pr.

Maybe I'm just going in and
just checking it off that day.

Right.

I, I just, I, another thing though
that I wanted to bring up was,

it's really hard on social media
when men speak on these subjects.

A lot of times women get very,
very angry when they hear from men.

Like, it doesn't matter.

Just listen to your body
and they can get pretty,

outraged over that, that no, we only
need to hear about this from, from women.

Not sure why I brought that up, but
it was just a, a post from men know,

came up where he shared a study
saying, you know, this meta-analysis

is showing that in the end it really,
it's not impacting women like we think.

And there was some
outrage on, on that post.

Lauren: I think you nailed it in terms
of it's really difficult to attribute,

you know, a particular session
or, or even a month of programming

and progress to just your cycle.

Um, because as, as you said,
there are so many variables

that are going to influence.

How you feel day to day
walking into the gym.

And so I think the, the
one thing that we might.

Say is consistent for some
individuals is that they have pretty

regular, uh, menstrual symptoms.

So maybe on it's the day before I get
my period, or it's the first day of my

period, for some people it's longer,
but typically it's one or two days and

that it's kind of clockwork for them.

Like, I have terrible, terrible cramps.

I don't wanna train.

Um, and I say.

Fine.

Uh, you know, go for a walk or
don't go to the gym that day.

Um, I think that is a totally different
conversation than overhauling your

whole program to accommodate, you
know, these sort of potential.

Influences of these hormone profiles
that you're not even measuring,

but that we're talking one session
when we say this is two weeks, the

influence of, of, you know, not lifting
for two weeks is going to matter.

The influence of, of skipping or maybe
decreasing the volume or i I swapping

out some exercises or whatever it
is for one or two sessions, isn't

going to have this huge result,
uh, effect on, on your results.

As far as men speaking out on
this, I as a scientist, I don't

really understand the vitriol.

Um, I think that you can be a scientist
who studies a variety of things that

influence a variety of populations, um,
with a variety of ailments, uh, and.

You're an expert because you're an expert.

I have problem with people who are
not experts speaking out on this.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, but you don't hear that when
it's somebody speaking about,

you know, exercise for elderly
individuals and you don't hear people

being like, you're not elderly.

How dare you give recommendations
for that population?

Uh, or people who do research
in kids, you're not a child.

How dare you give recommendations
for, so, I, I, I really, I

don't get it to be honest.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Yeah, it is pretty wild.

Um, I got sadly pulled into
that, that conversation with men.

'cause I'm like, well, I'm a trainer and
I just, this is, this is my takeaway and

I'm a woman and so can I speak on this?

But then I was told I couldn't
because, um, yeah, yeah.

Just women attacked.

Well, you don't agree with me.

You can't speak on it either.

It was just really, really funny.

It is really, really funny.

There are people

Lauren: to, you know, to your point
though, there are people who take that,

take this really personally, or Mm-Hmm.

They have extremely strong feelings about
it, and I think I, I, I don't really

understand why, except that that's just
sort of the nature of the internet.

People kind of form these.

Really strong communities
around doing something right?

Like yeah, if you're on the ketogenic
diet, then you're part of this, this

community, and you identify deeply as
being somebody who is a fan of that diet.

And so perhaps this is
sort of similar to that,

Lindsay: That that is an excellent point.

We really do.

We choose our teams and then it
doesn't matter if our team is

just like done a personal foul.

We're like, what?

What's wrong with you ref?

Right.

We just have our, or our
political teams or whatever.

It doesn't matter.

We'll, we'll look the other way.

It is kind of funny.

That is very, very much human nature.

I, I was very, very intrigued that you
also did studies on, and, you really

looked into volume as far as for women.

And I really wanna talk about that.

Do I have my opinions on this?

And I'm just so curious
what yours are, uh, and what

you've seen in the literature.

'cause usually when we're talking
about volume for hypertrophy,

people will always say, well, 10
to 20 sets a week is, is perfect.

That's usually the general rule
that's kind of thrown out there.

Now, do you find that that's true?

Do you find that that's
different for women?

What are your thoughts on this?

I'm really curious.

Lauren: At the time there, volume was a
really hot topic in general, and people

were, were really trying to kind of
push the threshold and there was this

theoretical model that, you know, um,
you, you get sort of increased benefits

on, on, uh, up to a certain point.

And then theoretically there has to
be a point where you're doing way too

much and then so maybe it's sort of
eventually kind of an inverted u or

eventually there's a plateau and you
can't benefit from any more volume.

But they really weren't doing this
in, in women, and so I compared,

there was a group doing two sets of
five exercises three times a week.

And it, this was all a lower body
training study, so it was a squat, a

stiff leg deadlift, a hip thrust, a
leg extension, leg curl, and then so

two sets of each of those three times
a week versus five sets of each of

those exercises three times a week.

And there were no differences
in hypertrophy or strength.

And

Lindsay: Really, how long was that?

Lauren: This was over 10 weeks.

Lindsay: No way.

And this was only in women.

Lauren: Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay: Um, were things taken to
failure or how close were they?

Was this monitored by by someone?

Like, I'm so curious.

Lauren: Yeah.

We had a full team of people.

Every, every workout was, uh, monitored
by one of the, the coaches who was a,

you know, research assistant for me.

Um, and the, the sets were
taken to, to reps from failure.

Or two reps in reserve, if you
wanna use that terminology.

And we did before and after
strength testing, before and after

ultrasound hypertrophy of the
quads, hamstrings, and glutes.

And the, the lower volume group
was putting in about 40 minutes per

workout, you know, three times a week.

And the high volume group
was taking 90 minutes plus.

Yeah.

Lindsay: Easily.

Lauren: And so it, you know, it
was really interesting to then see,

I know the, the rest periods were
standardized to, um, two minutes per,

uh, in between sets and all that.

But it was really interesting to see
how much more time, um, that the high

volume group was spending in the gym for.

Like, at least in my
results, not a lot of reward.

Lindsay: Yeah, that's so fascinating
because I feel like we keep seeing

people test the limits of volume, right?

I mean, yeah, we, we saw in, in triceps
and quads, I mean the, what was it, 56

sets or for quads or something outrageous.

Um, I think the tricep one that
I'm thinking of, a study that I'm

thinking of was, was it in the
thirties or No, it was up to 30.

That's, that sounds

Lauren: right.

Yeah.

Lindsay: And from what they saw, I
think that they, it was predominantly

men doing it, and from what they saw
was that, um, they were able to squeeze

out a, a little bit more hypertrophy.

Um, now I haven't been suggesting people
do 56 sets, but I don't think anybody

took, went away thinking that, but.

With what you just barely shared and
what we're kind of now seeing come out.

Um, have you changed your mind on volume?

Like what is your overall
thought as far as volume in women

Lauren: from just working with women and
people in general, regardless of sex?

I find that the volume people can tolerate
is really, uh, different between people.

There are some people who feel
like I get so beat up if I.

Do more than three sessions a week,
or I, I can't squat more than once a

week, or I can't deadlift more than
once a week without starting to get some

kind of nagging pain here and there.

And then I've trained people who could
wanted to do six sessions and recovered,

and they could squat three times a
week and they could do, you know, um,

four sets, five sets of every exercise.

And they just had that
level of recoverability.

And so I think when it comes to, you
know, you as an individual trying to.

Put together your program or if you're
somebody who's coaching other people

and, and trying to, um, put together
or adjust their program over time.

Getting feedback consistently
is really important.

Monitoring the, the, the strength gains is
another proxy for, you know, how they're

progressing and how they're recovering.

And then getting feedback on things
like, uh, in program enjoyment, stress

levels, sleep, um, and, and also, you
know, for if you can monitor their

nutrition, if that's relevant, then
taking all of that into account.

And making sure that you are working
with them and adapting along the way

to help them reach their goals in a way
that's sustainable and also enjoyable.

Because I think that sometimes we get in
this phase of, you know, kind of we're

in a fitness craze and we're really
trying to optimize everything and this

is the most important thing to us.

And then we get into a slightly
different phase of life.

Mm-Hmm.

Where we realize, you know what,
fitness is really important to me.

It's always gonna be part of my life, but.

My whole day to day isn't spent
thinking about my macros or my program

or what I'm doing at the gym later.

And so it's at that point that we
wanna make sure people don't just

stop lifting or stop exercising.

Mm-Hmm.

We want to work with them to, to create
kind of a more moderate, sustainable

program so that they're still getting the
benefits of, uh, lifting without feeling

like this all or nothing mentality.

Lindsay: Yeah.

I, um, I also think that there's
something to exercise selection

as far as volume as well for sure.

Like if people are overloading in
that, in that stretch, that lengthened

position, and they're just like, all
of their exercises are just in that

lengthened, they may find that the
amount of volume, the amount of sets

that they can do are not near as many.

'cause I'll watch, um,
like bikini competitors.

I have a, a few friends
that are bikini competitors.

And I'll watch them and their,
their, their competitor friends,

just two hours at the gym.

But they're doing so much like
short contracted position work that

I'm like, yeah, they can do that.

And they can handle the volume really well
because I feel like those, those types

of, um, exercises are really, uh, popular
for, for females like kickbacks, you know?

Mm-Hmm.

We're really just working the shorten
that you can't compare a kickback.

And the amount of recovery time that's
needed compared to a squat, right?

Absolutely.

Yep.

Or a leg press even.

Like, you just can't, and so it
just depends too on the exercises

that an individual is drawn to.

Lauren: Yeah, I, I think you make an
excellent point and there is a lot of,

of kind of glute isolation ish exercises
that you can do with bands or cables that

are, are fairly easy to recover from.

I'd say the same thing with.

With dealt, if you're doing a lot of
lateral raises or maybe face pulls,

um, and it, but when you think about
compound exercises that are not, that

are taxing multiple muscle groups.

Mm-hmm.

And.

Joints as well.

Uh, you know, even like if you're
doing a barbell squat, it, it's even

the stabilization of the bar using the
upper body that is, um, and using the

spinal erectors that that's taxing.

So it's a kind of a full,
uh, system challenge there.

And so of course that's going to be
more fatiguing and if you try to do

set after set, after set after set,
eventually form is going to start

to weaken and, and potentially fail,
and then your, uh, possibility for

injury is going to start to increase.

And so I think we need to
be really careful there.

But you're right.

You know, when we talk about co
the comparing this type of set to

another set and we're calling it.

You know, a lower body set or a set
for your glutes, um, even doing a,

a really heavy barbell hip thrust is
going to take a, a bigger toll than

doing a, a kickback or, or doing Mm-Hmm.

A abduction machine, for example.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm curious, what are your thoughts
about the differences in rest

times for men versus, uh, women?

Lauren: I think that when we look at
the research as a whole, there really

isn't enough there to say clearly
women recover faster and can either

rest shorter or train more frequently.

That's another argument that
I'll see that that's made.

Um, I, I think when we look at sort
of men as a whole and women as a

whole, we try to make these broad.

Arguments or, or suggestions
about sex-based differences.

And it's really similar to what
I was saying before about the

the menstrual cycle stuff and
how much, uh, inter-individual

variability there is on that front.

Same goes for, for just people
across the board, regardless of sex.

We see higher and lower responders,
both men and women in every study with

every outcome that, that we measure.

And so my take.

From what I know about the science and
also what I know from working with a

lot of people, uh, in, in a coaching
capacity, is that it's, it doesn't

really help the, the fitness consumer
nor the coach to say, this is what you

do for men and this is what you do.

For women, it's much more, uh, beneficial
to say, you know what we're gonna expect.

A, a large amount of variability.

Um, and maybe there's something
there for, for women versus men,

and so test the waters there.

Be aware that perhaps they'll be able
to, to train more frequently or, or

have, but I just wouldn't make that
assumption because there the literature

isn't strong enough to, to make that
claim and I think it can set up,

they coach to walk into the
coach-client relationships with

a set of assumptions about that
individual based on their biological

sex, which isn't actually helpful.

You'd rather you'd be better off walking
in with a blank slate and just working

with that individual as a whole person.

Lindsay: That is so powerful.

That is so powerful.

This past week I had, um, I don't
take one-on-one clients anymore.

I've moved to, um, just.

Delivering training programs on my app,
but I have a community where we talk

through a bunch of things and I had a
woman reach out saying that after her,

I can't remember if it was a squat or
an RDL, but she's like, I, I feel like

I need three, four minutes of rest.

And you know, if somebody was just
like, Nope, you only need two minutes.

The literature says you
only need two minutes.

To me, I was like, oh, well there's,
there might be a few things we can

do to like help your recovery intro.

Like maybe we should introduce like some
more cardio if you're not doing any, or,

um, or if you don't have time for that,
then take that extra time that you need.

And then I have other women on the
other side saying, Lindsay, it's

a two minute rest, but I'm, I'm
feeling really good at 90 seconds.

I'm like, well, yeah.

Then if you feel really good and you
feel like your strength isn't impacted.

By starting a little bit earlier, and I
think we just need to get better, maybe

as coaches of teaching the principles and
then allowing people that flexibility.

I think that will be really freeing.

I don't know what your
thoughts are on that.

Lauren: I, I think that's really key
and that applies sort of across the

board because if we can, if we can train
people or people can train themselves

to kind of auto-regulate and say.

Whether it's how you feel walking
into the gym that day or how you feel

after that set, you know, then we, we
don't even need to worry about setting

the timer for the, the rest period.

We can just say, I'm doing four sets
of squats and I, I'm, I'm in tune

with my body to know when I'm about
ready to go and I'm not going to force

myself, to, to go, you know, to sit
around waiting if I feel ready or to

go before I, I feel really recovered.

And I mean, the only exception to that
would be if, if you were, um, in doing

some sort of lifting competition that
required a, a finite amount of rest.

But I think in general, in a, in a
lifting session and just in your kind

of fitness world as a whole, it's really
valuable to, to be able to put the.

The rules down and say, I've been doing
this long enough, I can trust myself.

Uh, I think it's really similar
with people who are tracking

their macros for years.

And I'm like, you've been
doing this long enough.

You know what 20 pound, 20
grams of protein looks like?

Mm-Hmm.

You know what, uh, a half a cup of
looks like you, you're, you don't,

you don't necessarily need the
crutch of the, the tracking app.

Because you've taken the knowledge
and the tools you need to implement

them into your everyday life.

Lindsay: Yes, 100%.

And I love that you call it a crutch too.

'cause I do, I say that all the time.

I'm like, if you feel bound to it after
years and years, this is no longer a tool.

This is a crutch.

Yeah.

And you've gotta learn to trust yourself
and step away from these things.

Uh, yeah.

It's, and same goes, I feel like.

In the gym.

It's really funny because I feel like,
um, when you first get into fitness,

you have no idea what you're doing.

Well, I didn't, maybe
I should speak to them.

You probably did Lauren, but I didn't.

Um, and I got caught in, I like into
the extremes and I got really pulled

into, you have to do X, Y, and Z.

And I got so pulled into that extreme.

I.

And then you kind of see that
no, you actually don't have to.

You, you just swing from one
pendulum, like one side of the

pendulum to the other, right?

You are not working at all to optimizing
every tiny little thing, and then

you kind of come back in the middle
where wisdom lies, I feel like, and

you realize, no, those, some things
matter more than others, but probably

not even as much as I, I think
that they do consistency over time.

Learning to use the tool
wisely for my needs.

My time period, my goals, like in
the end, I feel like that's where

like that's a sweet spot once
you've gotten there in fitness.

I feel like I,

Lauren: I think we all kind of experience
some kind of journey like that.

Um, and that is the goal.

And then sustainability again, because
it's just, you're not going to be

that into every little or, or just
able to prioritize every little thing.

Um.

That, that's going to
optimize your results.

Or maybe you're not even
doing it to optimize results.

Maybe you're just wasting
your time and money.

Um, but yeah, the, that, that typically
isn't, isn't sustainable for very long.

And so at, at that point, do you just
sort of lose interest in fitness and

move on to a new hobby, or do you kind
of come back to the middle as you say,

and and incorporate it in, in a more kind
of moderate way that isn't as extreme?

Lindsay: Yeah, exactly.

Oh my goodness.

Well, I love it.

Lauren, it has been amazing having you on.

I'm so glad that we gotta talk about these
different topics and have, um, and also

expose you to, uh, a lot of my clients.

You don't have, you don't really
post a ton on Instagram, do you?

Lauren: I don't, I'm, it's, it's on
my list of, uh, goals for the future.

I'll try to be more out there
and, and share more high

quality information, but, um, I.

I know that the, the Instagram fitness
scene is a lot, and I've mostly

been focused on finishing up my PhD.

So now that I've, I'm officially done
with that, I will have a bit more time.

And so I hope to be more active
on social media and people can

reach out if they have questions.

Lindsay: Well, I would love to see
you more active on there just because

I feel like this space and especially
women in this space would really

appreciate just, kind of your wise
approach to, to health and fitness.

So I think it would be awesome.

But I also understand from being
in the space, it is overwhelming.

So, so anyways, but where can
they, where can they find you?

How can they reach out to you?

Lauren: Yeah.

My Instagram is Lauren CS
one, and that's, you can.

Send me a message and, um, I, I
will try to start posting more.

'cause I agree.

I, I mean, and I wanna put up
information that, that will be helpful.

Um, I'm, I'm not interested in battling
those with, you know, different

opinions because I don't have Mm-Hmm.

An investment one way or another.

You know, I did the science because
I was genu, genuinely curious As a

woman, as a coach of women, I want,
I wanted to know if it mattered.

Um, and I, I didn't, you know,
go into doing this work with any

kind of bias one way or another.

I would be equally excited
to share the results if they

had come out the other way.

Yeah.

Um, I'm also, uh, an author
of the Mass Research Review.

And so if, if people wanna check
that out, uh, it can be really

helpful for translating the latest
science in exercise, nutrition,

behavior change, sports psychology,
kind of everything that, that we're

interested in when it, when it comes
to optimizing performance for lifters.

That is a monthly research review, but
we also post a free content on the Master

Research Review Instagram, and we host
a weekly YouTube live kind of q and a.

We call Office Hours if
people wanna check that out.

Um, that's a another great source of
information that I would highly recommend.

Lindsay: I've been a mass member for like
five or six years, and I always encourage

people when they're like, how do you,

how do you keep up on studies?

Because there's, there's low quality
studies, there's high quality studies.

I mean, there's an array of
them and I don't have time

to, to read through it all.

But, um, I always encourage
coaches, like, if you're serious

about, about this field, I.

Mass members is awesome.

Like, and

Lauren: Even if

you did have the time, you know, it's
a, it's a really technical skill Yes.

To be able to read, interpret,
and critique research.

So yeah, I think it's,
it's really valuable.

And if, if anyone is a trainer that
needs to get their continuing education

for, uh, the NSCA, ACE nasm, um,
they, we also offer those, those CEUs

and it's a really cost effective way
to get your continuing education.

Lindsay: That's awesome.

Awesome.

Okay.

Well thank you so much.

I'm excited.

I'll probably have you on again.

You are awesome.

Thank you, Lauren.

No

Lauren: thanks.

Thanks for having me.

I'd be happy to come back.