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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the
Speaker 2: Welcome to Honest Money.
I'm your host, Anja, and today's
episode is brought to you by hard block.
Anja: Joining me today is Bram Kanstein.
Bram is a Bitcoin podcaster with a
podcast called Bitcoin for millennials.
It's doing incredibly well.
I just checked his statistics and he's
got nearly 30,000 followers on YouTube,
and he's just, I believe, two months
ago I released his 200th episode,
which is an amazing achievement.
Most podcasters don't
make it to a hundred.
Um, welcome to Honest Money Brand.
Bram: Thank you so much.
Thanks for the invitation.
Happy to.
Yeah, you're
Anja: very welcome.
You're very welcome.
Um, starting with the low hanging
fruit, obviously, what inspired you?
To start the podcast
Bitcoin for millennials.
I think it, I think it's, uh, it's
probably quite similar to what motivated
you to start, uh, this po this podcast.
Right.
Like I, I think once you, once you kind
of see what Bitcoin is and what it could
be, I think it draws a lot of people in.
Um, with regard to, yeah, just
having the feeling that they
want to contribute to that in.
In some way, shape, or form.
And I've always been quite, um, yeah, I
think just entrepreneurial, like just an
entrepreneurial computer nerd basically.
And I like to tinker with, um, yeah, tools
and new projects and stuff like that.
So, um, it was, it was, it was
actually another podcast where I,
where I heard, uh, a guy called Bob
Burnett, who is in, I think his mid
sixties or something like True Boomer.
His, his ex handle is also Boomer, BTC.
And he said, um, if you, if you think,
um, Bitcoin is the biggest thing happening
in the world right now, then uh, yeah,
you, you should contribute to this.
This is the only thing
to pay attention to.
Like if you, if you wanna
see if this succeeds, it's
probably gonna take, um, yeah.
Your lifetime.
And, uh, I think, I think, uh, it's, it's
the most important thing to contribute to.
And when I heard that, um, like
two and a half years ago, I was
like, yeah, I actually should.
I've been in Bitcoin for, since
like 20, 20 13, like on and off.
I just, you know, I got distracted
by crypto and stuff like that,
but just kept on studying.
Eventually back into only, only Bitcoin.
Yeah.
When I heard him say that, I
was like, yeah, he's right.
I sh I should, and then, you know,
of course I was thinking like, okay.
What can I do?
I've had ideas for a podcast before.
I actually had, uh, a podcast, I don't
know, like five years ago or something.
I made like 15 episodes, uh, before I
even published one because I thought,
well, if I'm gonna start, I need like
this little backlog and stuff like that.
But I never really published it, so
I don't know in some, some way that
came back and it was like, yeah, you
should do, you should do a podcast.
I think, uh, uh, I think that
was just, uh, kind of like the
practical inspiration in, in a sense.
But it was also in the same time that
I had like conversations, like just
calls with, with people that I knew from
the internet that were into Bitcoin.
And some of these calls at the end we were
like, damn, we should have recorded this.
Like, I, uh, we, uh, you know, I, I,
I, I think this, this, this could be
valuable to people, like how we, how we
go through this and discuss and reflect.
Philosophize, stuff like that.
And in, in that same time, so I got
the inspiration from Bob, I had these
conversations, and then I also had
conversations with, yeah, my, my
millennial, some of my millennial peers,
some of my, my, my best friends that
just have no idea that the money is
broken, that there's a problem, that
there's no pension, no social benefits,
at least in my opinion, in the future.
Um.
And I was kind of stunned by that.
Like, um, I, I, I think I ended up
with Bitcoin in a pretty rational way.
I don't have a finance or
economics background or whatever.
For me, it's just about, okay,
do, do I want to use money that is
the best until infinity, you know?
And, uh, the answer is no.
So I need, I need a solution.
Right.
And I eventually, yeah, eventually
I ended up with, with Bitcoin.
But um, yeah, I was kind of stunned by
the fact that a lot of my generational
peers just didn't really care.
But you know, they go to the same
grocery store where the prices
are only going, uh, only going up.
They have the same health insurance of,
of which the price is only going up.
Like, it's not like they are living
in a different reality or I'm
living in a different, uh, reality.
So it was kind of like these things
combined where I was just like, okay.
Maybe I should do something that, uh, I
never really did before and just go for
that and, you know, could have been a book
or whatever, but you know, it, it ended up
being, uh, a podcast and eventually, um.
You know, I like talking.
So, uh, I think it's a good outlet
for me to, to talk about something I
find, uh, uh, inter uh, interesting.
And, um, yeah, that's how, that's
kind of how the podcast came about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So was the other podcast the one
that you did 15 episodes with,
was that also about Bitcoin?
Bram: No, it was like more
like startup entrepreneurship.
Nice.
Uh, related.
Um, I mean, it was fun.
I had fun conversations, but I
never really put anything out.
And I think it's also because, um, I
dunno, I'm, I'm kind of perfectionist
or at least I, I think I was more,
uh, before, so when I started this
podcast, I was like, okay, I need,
I do know I need a little backlog.
And I had like all these
ideas and stuff like that.
And then I heard, um, Mr. Beast, you
know, the famous, uh, YouTuber, he said.
Whatever you do like on online,
just make a hundred editions of it.
A hundred episodes, a hundred items.
And that really motivated me to kind
of like put all these, all these big,
big ideas I had to decide and just be
like, okay, I'm gonna make 100 episodes.
Because his point was, well
after 100 episodes, you know?
If, um, you enjoy doing it right, if
you become better at using the tools
and and whatnot and, uh, YouTube and
Spotify and stuff like that, but also if
people even wanna listen to it, right?
And, um, I think that's
mainly the most interesting.
Part like it.
I don't know how, how that was on
your journey, but like on my journey
there, there have been a lot of people
whose content I consumed, right?
Who helped me in my journey of
understanding money and Bitcoin
and you know, macro stuff.
And now I feel like.
I'm talking about that in my way,
but I'm also seeing that it reaches
people, uh, d different people again.
Right?
So it's very interesting that kind of
like every cycle or every few years,
there's this new group of people that
are like, well, hey, I wanna, I wanna
contribute to this thing in my own way,
just like you are doing now, and you.
Talk probably about Bitcoin
in a different way than me.
And that's amazing because you
will reach other people than,
um, than the people that I reach.
Right.
And I think that is just really fun
and rewarding and it's, uh, it's, it's,
it's just fun to experience that you
can help people on, on this journey that
is, uh, quite difficult, I would say.
Anja: Yeah.
Well this is a great lead
into my next question.
So is your audience mainly millennials?
Because the re, I'll tell you why I'm
asking, because I started my Bitcoin
podcast because I wanted to help.
Draw like the early
mainstreaming, particularly women.
But what I'm finding is
90% of my audience is men.
So
Bram: yeah, it's, it's, it's funny.
I think this is a, this
is a fun, fun topic.
Uh, probably like 54% or something are in
the millennial bracket, but there's a lot
of boomers that listen, which is logical
because they have millennial children.
So they reply a lot actually
and say like, Hey, I'm 71.
I'm full on into Bitcoin.
Like they're always at
their age in the comment.
I, I love it.
And they say like, well, I, I, I
sent this podcast to my millennial
children and I really think they
should listen to it and this and that.
So it's, it's, it's, it's
kind of like a byproduct.
I never really realized that.
But, uh, there's a lot of boomers that,
that actually listen and, um, I think
that is actually very interesting,
right, because the whole, the, the boomer
generation, you know, especially in the
West, I think they just had it, well,
no, not, not easy life, but in regard of.
Having assets and opportunities
and stuff like that.
They, they were just
there at the right time.
And I think millennials are kind of
there at the wrong time, uh, with, you
know, in the context of what they got.
But I think millennials are in the right
time in the context of, um, of Bitcoin.
So it's, it's like, uh, millennials
and, uh, and boomers and like some,
some Gen Z, but I think that's the
main, um, the main group and yeah,
why, why there aren't that many women.
I don't, I honestly don't really know.
I think this problem of monetary
debasement hits, hits everyone, right?
Whatever, whatever you like to do
or buy or pursue, or like, it's
all that, that's all irrelevant.
So I would also think that, um, that
women would also be attracted to this, um,
to this topic, but I, I haven't really.
Found an answer as to why not.
But I, I do think like, you have this,
you had this meme like a year ago, right,
where they asked men like, how often
do you think about the Roman Empire?
You know, do you know that meme?
Anja: No, I don't.
But I love a good meme.
Like there's
Bram: these, there, there, you know,
there there was these videos of
women that asked their husbands or
their partners like, Hey, how often
do you think about the Roman Empire?
And like, all these guys light up.
And they're like, do you have a minute?
You know, did you know this
and this and that and that?
And you know, the money is being
debate and it's all fucked.
And it, and all these
women are like, whoa, dude.
Like, what are, what
are you talking about?
So I, I don't know.
I just think it's interesting that,
um, I, I don't know why that is.
Maybe, maybe, um.
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah, I don't know.
I, I really don't have
an answer to it actually.
Actually, yeah,
Anja (2): I have, maybe it's just the men.
Bram: I, I do think the men are, men are
also in, in a way, um, I think all, all,
all men want to protect their, their
wife or, or their women if they have,
have daughters and stuff like that.
So they are constantly
thinking about that.
Uh, also in a, in a, in a
subconscious way, I think.
And, and that could be micro, right?
Your house or where you live or whatever.
But I think macro is also very, very
important and may maybe even more because
there, there are forces that you, I
think by definition, cannot control.
Right.
May, maybe it's just that, it's just look,
looking for the danger to, to my family
and how, how can I mitigate, um, that
which I, by definition cannot control.
Right.
And I think, uh, well, Bitcoin
is, is a, is a great solution,
uh, to a lot of that stuff.
Anja: Yeah.
But what do you think?
Yeah, no, I completely agree with you.
I think men are the ones to probably
take initiative more to kind of explore
uncharted territory, so to speak.
But I think if women understood
that Bitcoin is money, they would
definitely take an interest in
it, because money is again, yeah.
So everyone uses it.
So, yeah, so I, and it was so lovely
to hear and see on Twitter that.
A lot of people that I follow are kind of
like making 2026 about Bitcoin is money.
I think Frat said something like that.
The Bitcoin way said something like that.
I said it last year on
Bob Murphy's podcast.
So yeah, it's like, I feel like everyone's
heading in 20 20, 20 26 in two with a
mind friend of like, Bitcoin is money.
Like just call it what it is.
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Bram: Well, I, I think, I think
that's, that's interesting.
I, I think it's true
and it's a good angle.
And it's also why it's
so confusing, right?
So on the one side, I think people
think Bitcoin is an investment,
something you get rich with
when the price goes up, right?
I, I think about the
price as an exchange rate.
It's, it, it is a money.
You, you exchange one money
for a better money, right?
And once you start seeing it like
that, okay, then you end up with,
well, what is, what is money?
And then, and uh, you know,
that's, that's another podcast.
But then what is Honest Money, right?
Um, and I think when, when, yeah.
I think when people think about money,
they think about, uh, the medium of
exchange part, uh, the, the most.
Where, um, actually yesterday I had
a podcast recording with someone
who inspired me a lot along the way.
Fiji boy, Patti, I dunno
if you know who that is.
Yeah.
Like he, yeah.
So he, he wrote, uh, an article
like nine years ago called
The Bullish Case for Bitcoin.
And he said he, he says like, you
know, you go from collectible.
Collectible to store value to medium
of exchange to unit of account, and
so medium of exchange, whether we
want to use Bitcoin to as a reward
in a value exchange, and I agree with
this, only comes after the person
who you know, wants to receive it.
Realizes he can also save in it, right?
Like, why would I want to get a reward?
That, uh, of which it's unclear if I can
save in it or if, if it stores my wealth.
And of course, everyone is doing the
wrong thing today with fiat money, right?
They're trading their finite time
and energy for something other
people can create infinitely.
But that is where the difficulty part is.
Like this is just what people think is.
Um, money, but they don't understand
that over history there have been
many, many different forms and
attempts of an ad, um, ad money.
And so Bitcoin is no
different than than that.
As in an attempt at better money,
it actually is superior money.
And I think that a added is also
something that people just cannot gr.
It's like, wow.
Yeah, it's, if it sounds too
good to be true, it probably is.
Right?
But that's kind of like the.
The field brain rot.
I say like, they, like, the
people don't see it, people don't,
people don't understand this.
Um, yeah, just the context of money.
The history of money.
I didn't understand that before either.
Right.
So I don't wanna say that I, I, uh, I did.
But it takes a long time until you Yeah.
Kind of accept that apparently.
There are other people no better than
you that influence the value, uh, of
the reward in in exchanges that you do.
Okay, what does that mean?
What do I, what do I think of that?
Can I do anything about that?
You know, and I think if you're
curious and, and open enough, you will
get to the point where you realize
you are being taken advantage of.
But, um, yeah, a lot of people
just don't, don't see that.
And, and that's okay.
I mean, it takes, takes time.
And I think in a sense we are
also yeah, maybe lucky in the way
our brains are wired or whatever.
Um, that, that, that we figured it out.
So I. I think it's a pity that
not a lot of people have woken
up to the fact that, um, fiat
money is basically a Ponzi scheme.
But yeah, it's just, um, I mean
that's not, that's nothing new, right?
Like that's of all, um, all of history.
Like some people are
ahead of others and yeah.
I mean, that's just what it is.
Anja: Yeah.
Okay.
I'll go back to one of the
questions that I've got here
because we've mentioned boomers.
We've mentioned obviously the, the name of
your podcast is Bitcoin for millennials.
You know that meme that's been
shared around, I really wanna
know what you think of it.
So I've got it written down
here so I don't mess it up.
If I pay a Boomer 10 x for what he
paid for his house, he can pay me.
A thousand x would I pay for my Bitcoin?
What do you think?
Bram: Yeah, I love that.
I mean, there's, there's a lot of
things that you can take out of that.
I, I think what comes to mind for
me is that if, if you think about.
The, the fact that someone got
rich by buying a house is already
an interesting thing, right?
Like if you just think about
a house being a, a, a, a, a
utility tool, basically, right?
It's a, it's, it's a utilitarian product.
It gives you, uh, you know, shelter
and warmth and you know, so privacy,
protection, et et cetera, right?
Everyone needs a home.
That's a kind of like a basic thing, okay?
So if everyone needs a home.
Will there always be special homes
or nice homes and nice places, right?
Or luxurious homes.
Yeah.
Of, of course.
Right.
So if, if there's freedom to build
whatever home, then some people
will build, um, like special
stuff in special places, right?
And those, and those are unique and
those are valuable in their own way.
Uh, by the way, probably to a very
small group of, of people, right?
So you, if you have a $10 million
home, there's not a lot of people
that can actually buy it, let alone.
You know, like what you
did to the home, right?
So they, they have a bigger consideration
than just the, the buying price if they
wanna make it their, their own thing.
But, um, in general, a home is,
is, is is something that is, uh, a
utility, but it's kind of weird that.
Homes became a way to grow wealth,
which would indicate that there is
either, um, some form of engineered
scarcity because conceptually you
can build infinite homes, right?
In whatever level, at whatever
level of quality or, um, how do
you say, like, uh, uh, efficiency.
So that's kind of weird, like how,
how, how did, how did homes become a
way to grow your wealth and um, uh.
I think the con, the conclusion,
well, or my conclusion to that is,
is that the financialization of, of
homes is basically a consequence of
the creation of mortgages, which is
just another form of debt, right?
So, so banks, back in the day when,
when banks started, it was about credit,
but credit for on entrepreneurs, right?
If you say, okay, I have a plan to
build X, Y, Z, which is gonna have.
A, b, c value in the future.
I need some money now in
order to, to get there.
And then, because it's valuable,
I'm gonna make money and then I'm
gonna pay, you know, this, um,
this loan back with some interest.
But yeah, you can put that model on.
Well, uh, insurance, right?
Insurance is just an upside
down, uh, um, uh, loan basically.
Um, but then someone realized, well, if.
What, what else can we create with credit?
What kind of products can
we create with credit?
Well, everyone needs a home, so
why not make home home credit?
Right.
And it's interesting because there,
you can already see that like the,
once you start introducing that,
like the whole incentive structure
is kind of, um, eventually messed up.
Having us now be in a place, you know,
especially in your country where.
Homes that, you know, in your
mind 20 years ago would probably
be 300,000 Aussie dollars are now
two or 3 million Aussie dollars.
Right?
So the numbers don't even compute
with the, the home you would be
looking at if, if that makes sense.
So it is really weird that homes became.
Functionally a way to grow
wealth until this point, right?
I, I don't think it's
really possible anymore.
So there's a stretch that there's
like an end to it, but because it
worked for the boomers and also
Gen X to a big degree, right?
That is the story that, that they tell
the millennials and Gen Z, et cetera.
But the millennials and Gen Z are walking
into the fact that they cannot really,
um, buy a, a home, not only because
of the cost, but also because there's.
There're there are like, uh, um,
not enough homes like in my country,
I think they need like 300,000
homes or, or something like that.
So that's just one angle to unpack what
you said, because if homes, homes are
by definition not scarce, because you
could create more of them, in reality,
they are scarce because of who knows.
Right?
And then, you know, just,
uh, practically and then.
To get them, it's even more hard
because not a lot of people can
now actually pay for the amount of
interest that they ask for mortgages.
And that is because the whole field
money, the basement game just went on
too long and that's why we're here.
So why, um, why can a Boomer
pay a thousand X to me?
Uh, you know, what I paid for my Bitcoin
is because Bitcoin is absolutely finite.
Right.
So if, um, if, if Bitcoin can function
as a store of value, like people
have started to use homes in a way
to store and grow wealth, okay.
If you, if you compare that on
just one characteristic, which is
the, the scarcity, it just blows
homes out of the water, right?
Because again, conceptually
homes are infinite and, um.
Uh, factually, Bitcoin is
absolutely finite, right?
So those are just two.
They, they aren't even
comparable to each other.
Plus you can use Bitcoin as money.
You can send Bitcoin to
anywhere in the world, right?
Right.
If I wanna sell my Bitcoin right now, I
can sell it to someone that I've never
seen wherever they are in the world.
If I wanna sell my Malibu beachfront home.
Yeah, there's maybe like 10 or, or, well,
let's say a thousand people that could
actually A, afford it and B would want it.
Right.
So it's, it's just these, these
things that over time I think I just
started seeing like, if you put all
the characteristics of these different
assets next to each other, then uh.
Bitcoin is the most obvious thing to
own, but not a lot of people know it.
And I think that's where
this meme comes from.
It's like, okay, it's uh, you,
you've got a hundred x on your
house, I'm gonna have a thousand x
on on, on Bitcoin, and that's okay.
That's what I said.
Also in the beginning, I
think every, every generation
has their own opportunity.
So the boomers had the homes,
gen X had like the index funds,
s and p 500, stuff like that.
Um, and millennials have Bitcoin, I think.
Anja: I actually know more
boomers in Australia who've got
Bitcoin than, than millennials.
I think like,
Bram: well, for the, it's, it's, yeah.
That's interesting.
Right?
I would applaud those people because
they, they, they got wealth in this system
by just being there at the right time.
Well, of course people worked and
stuff like that, but just being at
a place at the right time gives you
a certain opportunity and I think.
I think the boomers are
probably the main signal, right?
Because they are, they are.
I they are in retirement or
close to retirement, right?
Their problem is the
same as we have, right?
Just rising costs, but.
They need to, they are closer to their
future, if that may, well, to the end
of their life, to the, to their future.
Right.
Whereas when you're younger and you're
like further, you're not gonna think
you're, no one is really thinking about
like, oh, well, how much, how much
money units do I need when I'm 70?
If that makes sense.
Right.
So the, the future in that
sense is further away.
So not a lot of people think about it,
but when you're a boomer and you know,
you've worked 40 or 50 years in your life.
And you hope to live another,
I don't know, 15, 20.
Yeah.
How are you gonna pay for that?
So I think the problem for
them is way more, uh, at the
surface, way more apparent.
So their urge to store whatever they
have in something that others cannot
create more of, I think is, uh, is,
yeah, it's just more apparent them.
Anja: Yeah, I was in my like
late twenties, early thirties.
I was in property and I
had two small apartments.
Um, 'cause that's all I could
kind of afford at the time.
And I decided that property wasn't for me.
It came with too many things.
It also made me a little bit immobile and
I quite like being free and not having
to like, you know, anchor myself in one
location because I was in that phase of my
life where I just still wanted to kind of.
Follow my career and follow
my dreams and whatnot.
Um, but now I'm wondering if I
actually regret selling, at least,
you know, one of those properties.
Because looking at what they're
selling for now, it hurts.
It really hurts.
I'm like, I'm like, oh no.
Did I just price myself
out of the housing market?
But, you know, yeah, I guess.
I guess,
Bram: um, I think, I think that's,
that's, um, that's I think an
interesting thing to maybe zoom in on.
Like, I, I would say no, it's, it's
just because it, it is, it, you can,
you only can do that in hindsight, but
at the time, I think all the things
you mentioned, they, they are important
to, they were important to you.
Right.
And I think.
That tension between you realizing that
there are certain, uh, liabilities or
characteristics that come with real estate
and whether or not they align with how
you want to live, I think is a, is a, is
a, is a great thing to question right.
Or to, to, uh, reflect on.
And if in that moment you would've been.
Let's say distracted by, oh no, real
estate is going up and I'm gonna
be rich and I'm gonna, you know,
it's gonna suck when I sell this.
And you know what, whatever, like
you, you should just follow what
you think is important for you.
And only in hindsight you can
see if, if that is the case.
And now I think if you only look
at money, yeah, maybe now you,
you then missed out on some stuff.
But if you're into Bitcoin, you
know, wait five or 10 years.
And your whole feeling will be different.
Um, so I think it's really more about
the like conscious decision making.
If, if that, if that makes sense.
And I think that is something that
Bitcoin eventually also gives you.
I think that is actually what is
distorted with, with fiat money, right?
This whole, um, high time preference
focus on the short term, et cetera.
Um, where I think Bitcoin gives you.
A way more optimistic
outlook toward the future.
So I, I, this is why I think Bitcoin
is also so interesting to me.
Like what does it, what does it, what
does it mean when you pick one asset over
the other, or one money over the other?
Like, what does the
impact, uh, of that, right?
Because for example, people that
choose fiat money, I, I don't
think there are many people that
consciously choose to use fiat money.
Anja: No.
Bram: So everyone is basically forced
to use fiat money unknowingly, right?
So unknowingly it also influences a
lot of their, um, their incentives
and motivations, wants, needs,
whatever, because they just.
Operate in this paradigm or matrix,
whatever you wanna call it, right?
This, this constructed reality in
which fiat money is, is the money.
Uh, but, but fiat money is probably
the shortest lift money, uh, of all
the money that ever e existed, right?
In the, in the, in the, in the human
history for, you know, it's just,
uh, like 55 years or something now.
So I think that is just a big contrast.
Against consciously becoming aware
of the fact that other people control
the money, that they basically steal
your time and energy, that you have a
problem, no one is coming to save you.
You need to find a solution, right?
Like all these things, accepting that,
that that is the case and starting to
figure out, okay, what should I do?
And then getting to Bitcoin.
Now you are into Bitcoin and now
all the other people that you
know are like, you're insane.
When are you gonna sell it?
What are you gonna sell,
sell it for, right.
So it's just, it's just, it's just hard
when you become more conscious, when you
start making more conscious decisions, you
also realize that there, uh, apparently
are a lot of other people that don't.
Right.
So I, uh, I, I just think there's just
a really interesting tension there
where, um, literally what you just
said, I think that is like a fiat money.
Mindset, psychological, remnant, whatever.
Right?
And, and I mean, I have the same, right?
So I'm not saying you're doing
something bad, but I just think
it's so interesting that you are
programmed in a certain way to just.
You know, go along, like e even
this, it's kind of a pity, right?
It's kind of a pity that you did
all of this work you consciously
decide to move to, to bitcoin in
your own self interest, right?
And then you have these kind of like
thoughts where it's like, well, what
if this or what if that or what, right?
Like it, it just, it,
it kind of messes up.
Um, I think the alignment that.
You got to by doing the work, right?
And it is just like an ego thing.
So it's like, I don't know, I just think
it's interesting that, that, again, the,
the money you're forced to use actually
influences way more than just, you know,
it being a practical tool or whatever.
And so even, even this, I mean, you
have a Bitcoin podcast, you are into
Bitcoin, and then it's like, well,
maybe I should have no, fuck that.
Like, no, this is, you're
doing the other thing.
Does that make sense?
Like I, I just, yeah, absolutely.
The tension is just
so, it is so messed up.
Like it goes, it goes so deep.
Um, yeah, again, I, I just think
that's, it's, it's interesting.
Yeah.
It really, it's messed up and
interesting at the same time
Anja: messed up and interesting.
Yes.
Yeah.
I, I definitely have moments
where, actually I think they
happen less and less frequently.
They're like the opposite
of our contractions.
It's, um.
Basically, I have moments where
I'm like, what if I'm wrong?
What if I got something about
Bitcoin wrong and then I have
to like, kind of reset my brain?
It's like, okay, how does Fiat work?
How does Bitcoin work?
Oh, no, I'm good.
You know, I'm good.
Bram: Yeah.
No, but listen, this, I love, I love this.
This is, this is why hobbling is hard.
This is why hobbling is hard.
It is a challenge.
It is a daily challenge.
Answering the question,
can I still trust myself?
So what?
What would you go back to?
So you have all this, um,
you know, trusting somebody
Anja: else.
Bram: Okay, well good luck,
have fun, staying poor, right?
Like, no, but I mean, like
that is why, that is why the
meme is have fun staying poor.
Like, do these other people care more
about your individual prosperity than you?
Yeah,
Anja (2): no,
Bram: it's nonsense.
You know, these people have, have
the same ego, uh, issues, the
same life, challenges, desires,
ones, needs, all trauma, all these
things that you and I also have.
So why would you outsource.
Probably the most critical, um, one of
the most critical parts of your life,
which is how do I protect my time and
energy, which is absolutely finite.
I can die tomorrow.
I don't know it.
I know it's absolutely finite,
but I don't know how much I have.
So if I spend it today and someone, you
know, trying to create value and someone
else gives me a reward for that, but over
time I can buy less and less with it.
I basically gave away.
My finite time and energy, so
someone else could benefit from that.
Like, fuck that.
Right?
No, but like, is it that,
that is the blue pill?
Are you okay with that?
If you're okay with that, you know?
Anja (2): Mm-hmm.
Bram: Whatever.
If you're not okay with that, you
also instantly take on all the
stuff that comes with, with that.
Does that make sense?
And cry a
Anja: little bit like, yeah.
Bram: No, but like responsibility.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
I have responsibility of,
I have agency over my life.
I have responsibility over.
Yeah.
No shit.
But that's what I love.
You scarring.
That's what
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Bram: Okay.
No, but that's like, that's it.
It's so funny because if, if, if.
But, but this is the essence of
life, in my opinion, is it is either
you walk through it like in an MPC
way, like, oh yeah, no, of course,
you know, it's gonna be great.
No other people obviously have my
best interest because I don't know,
uh, the TV said so, or, um, I'm
going to take my own responsibility.
And then it becomes more and
more scary because you realize
that there's a lot of things that
you've outsourced in your life.
And you don't know why.
You don't know why you do
it because, well, uh, other
people, other people do it.
Uh, he has this or that
degree or, uh, whatever.
Yeah.
But what the fuck, what does
that, what does that mean?
Right?
And so I think that, that, that is
why, why Bitcoin is also very, uh,
is a very spiritual experience to me.
It is that you just wake up to
the fact that the fact that you
didn't take responsibility, like
all you know, took on the agency.
It's actually an opportunity
for other people to exploit you.
Anja: Yeah.
Yeah.
Bram: And that always happens, right?
Like that, that is of all ages.
But when you decide to not do
that, that's when you realize,
Anja (2): you know,
Bram: how unaware you,
you were, uh, before.
And like you said, oh my god,
like so much responsibility.
Right.
I have a, I have a friend who sold
this company and, uh, you know, he,
he, he has a lot, a lot of money.
And uh, he once asked me, well, if I
have a million in Bitcoin and I have that
in self storage, I'm fully responsible.
I'm like, yeah, dude.
Like, yeah.
He's like, oh, that's very scary.
I said, do you know what's scary
when like your other millions are
in the bank and they're contr con
contractually, legally, not your property?
Oh yeah, yeah.
Oh, I never really thought
about it like that.
I'm like, yeah, dude, that
like, but you know what I mean?
Like that, that is it.
So people think that because there's
all these abstractions of like
legal or government or whatever,
like they, they, they are safe.
But the whole point is that it's,
it's, it's, it's all abstracted,
like even a home, right?
Like even a title deed is a, is a stamp
proved by some other third party, and it,
it is not your, it is not your property.
So.
All the way down the road
at the end of the road.
Um, anything else can, pro,
can, can be taken from you.
Anja (2): Yeah.
That
Bram: you could use as, as a store of,
of value, as a way to store your wealth.
Uh, except, uh, Bitcoin.
But I think accepting
that one is, is hard.
And to, if you then are into Bitcoin Yeah.
You, you are the.
You're the responsible person, but
that, that is, that is the, the
trade off that, that you're making.
And, um, yeah, I, I just, I
just think that brings that
conscious decision making, right?
Like being accepting that there's
other people that apparently are
taking advantage of you because you
are not aware of what you're doing.
Right.
You're not an actor.
You are a subject in this, in the system.
Okay.
That is messed up.
Uh, okay.
Step two, I'm really gonna integrate
that I was never awake, right?
Other people took advantage of me.
Okay, messed up.
What am I gonna do now?
Okay, all these, you know,
I have all these options.
And when you end up with Bitcoin,
um, no matter how much Bitcoin you
have, I always say the fact you make
that conscious decision to do that,
I think is the liberating, uh, part.
Because when you then look back.
You're gonna see all the things
where you didn't pay attention.
So I think there, the, there's already
a really big reward in actually taking
that ownership and taking on that agency.
Um, because it also, I think,
reveals to you these yeah, all
these other things that you
weren't really paying attention to.
And, and eventually I think that
could only be, um, a good thing.
Anja: Yeah, I can really relate
to that because I, I've always
been like into self-help stuff and
I remember years and years ago.
Can't remember whether it was a book
or a talk that I went to, but someone
was making an analogy, um, between,
you know, in, in the game of life,
do you wanna be the person that is
spectating a sport or you wanna be the
person on the court playing the sport?
And I definitely have to admit I
have been an NPC in my past life.
Um.
Do you think Bitcoin is almost like a
fast track into, I guess, this ultimate
self responsibility and you know, kind of
lifting yourself out of that NPC behavior
that I guess everyone can be prone to?
Bram: Yeah, I think, I think
that is in essence why.
Why you need to take a red pill
before you have an orange pill.
Right.
I think, I think it's really
like, um, like the movie, I think
the whole matrix movie is about
this what you just said, right?
It, it is about, there is a
certain constructed reality.
It's not like there are
people on computers that
construct a reality that's not.
See, I, I think this is also really
interesting already, like how do you
receive what we are talking about?
How does someone receive that, right?
The point is, I think if you, if
you put it into the essence of
it, if your base starting point
is no one else is better than you,
period, we all deserve to be here.
Right.
We were all born, we were all,
we all deserve to be here.
Everyone is equal in that sense.
Everyone is a little piece of
consciousness in a meat suit.
Okay?
So everyone is, is equal.
Why would I allow other people
to construct my reality for me?
You know, in some, in some way it's
a good thing because you learn.
You learn from it.
You, you, you learn from how other
people, same as I'm talking now,
someone is gonna hear that, right?
And I'm sharing how I, I see it.
That might not be how, how they
see it, but they could use what I'm
saying to adjust their paradigm.
Does that make sense?
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.
Bram: Okay.
But the critical part is you don't
take what I say as the truth, right?
You think for yourself because.
You are no better than
me and I'm not better.
I'm not better than you.
And the fact that a lot of people are
not aware is an opportunity for people
that are more aware to do things that
create a structure, a paradigm, a
matrix for the people that are unaware.
And then all these people are like,
oh, whoa, this is, this is chill.
And all these, all these things
are happening for me and all.
But, but, but that is the, I really
want to try to, to like boil it down.
Like if you just accept what other people
say as a truth without reflecting on it,
then you are adopting their para paradigm.
And if their idea of.
Their paradigm is influencing
your paradigm, right?
They are the actor and
you are the subject.
Does that make sense?
So if that is their game, if their game
is to influence your game, that uh,
that is why you're subject and that
is what, what you need to wake up to.
And so I think that the spiritual part is.
Kind of connected to what I
just said in the beginning.
Once you realize that you are not
your body and your thoughts and your
ego and and all these things, right?
And that this is just, you know, like
Alan Watts says, look, this is the dream.
You, you, you see this reality for 80,
90, a hundred, whatever years, right?
Like that is, that is the, the game,
like you said, yeah, I, I can do
anything I want, but do I allow myself.
To do anything, uh, I want to take
control to take that agency, right?
And I think this is just
how the world works.
You see that with, with
small children, right?
Like when you are a parent and you
have a child, you tell them what
you think is true and they're gonna
take that as like the building
blocks of, of, of their paradigm.
And whatever you see on the
tv, you can use as building
blocks for your paradigm, right?
And so.
Um, when you, when you why Bitcoin is
like a, like a, like a portal to more of
this, I think is because once you realize
that no one ever told you how money
worked on purpose, because apparently
there are other people that influenced
the value of this money that you trade
your finite time and energy for, whoa.
Okay, if, if that is true, right?
If you get to the conclusion that the
money is being controlled by people
know better than you to influence you
psychologically, spiritually, et cetera.
I mean, if you don't accept that,
then the, the, the, the, the rest
of all the rabbit holes of all the
things also open up because money is
arguably the most important technology.
In, in the world.
It, it is how you communicate value with
each other, how you, how you express
value, how you, um, price value, right?
So it is the start of all incentives of
all the work, all the productivity that
people could apply after receiving a
reward or having the, the anticipation
of, of getting a, a, a reward.
So.
In Bitcoin, there's the, the
meme, you know, every, everything
is downstream from the money.
Anja (2): Yeah.
Bram: Right.
If, if the money is broken and, and, and
therefore there are no, there, the, the,
uh, the, how do you say, like the, um, the
incentives are, the incentives themselves
are incentivized to be broken, right?
Because their reward is broken.
Everything after that, uh,
is a consequence of that.
Does that, does that make sense?
So I, I think absolutely.
When you get to like.
Just the, the beginning of incentives.
Um, eventually we trade, you know, that,
that, that, like in the beginning when you
had the barter, if, if I have fish and you
have banana, and I'm in a village where
I have fish, but if no one wants fish.
For example, we could have a A,
we could have a barter system,
but I'm doing the wrong thing.
Does that make sense?
So I would be incentivized to do
some, to not catch fish anymore,
to just start doing something
else that people would want.
This is the origin of where,
where money comes from, right?
Like when we barter it should be
we, Bart or something that I have.
You want and you have, I want.
And we only do it when we both deem it is
equal and you have my reward in your hand
and I have your reward in, in my hand.
And once we went to money, so,
uh, using what should be a neutral
thing in between us so I could
sell my, my, my proposed value to
people that don't have what I want.
But I can use money to
buy what I want, right?
It's, it's a great invention.
But once that money is not
neutral anymore, then I'm back up.
Then I'm, then, then my, then my judgment
of the value that I should bring or the,
or the beauty or the the productivity I
should put into something gets messed up.
Does that make sense?
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.
Bram: So it becomes unclear to me
how much value I should deliver.
For a reward that other people know
better than me actually influence.
And I think, yeah.
I hope that made sense.
Anja: It did.
It definitely did.
And it just kind of makes me
think a very scary thought.
And I wanna know if you've
ever entertained this thought
yourself, but have you ever
thought what you would do if.
Bitcoin was to disappear somehow.
I
Bram: don't think it dis, I
don't think it's gonna disappear.
Anja: No, I don't think it will either.
But like, but if
Bram: it dis, well, I always said
if this is in some weird way, some
C-I-A-N-S-A-S IOP and it's hackable
and all that shit, that is not true.
Then I would sit, I would
probably go and sit in a cave.
Uh, I would applaud and be
like, well, okay, well played.
Well played.
Thank you.
Uh, you got me.
And, um, yeah, I'm gonna contemplate
all of this that I, what I just said.
Meditate in a cave.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Something like that.
But I mean, this is, this
is also interesting, right?
It's like when you, when you run into
like bit, you know, Bitcoin critics or
whatever, they're like, oh no, it's a
speculative thing and this and that.
And then I'm always like, dude, waking
up in the morning is speculative.
Like I just rode my bike for 10 minutes.
Speculative, right?
I'm speculating on the fact that no
truck is gonna run me over and I'm dead.
Right?
Like
Anja: it's gonna rain.
Being,
Bram: being born is speculative.
Does that make sense?
Like it is, like, speculative
is not like everything I do is
speculating on a certain outcome
that is bigger, uh, or more positive
than the work I put in, right?
So it it, it, this whole idea of,
oh, what if Bitcoin goes away and you
were wrong, or this and that, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
But at least I tried.
If, you know, these are people
that haven't even woken up to the
fact that there are other people.
Again, no better than them
just taking advantage of them.
So they, they don't have any,
they don't add any weight or
substance to my own Quest author.
Mm-hmm.
Author
Anja: I was just quoting South Park.
They don't have author.
Bram: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But yeah.
And, and they, and they only
have, when you let them.
And then again, why, why, why?
What does this other person
know that I don't know?
You know, random Harry 1, 2, 3 on
Twitter that says You're a fucking
idiot, and Bitcoin is a scam.
Okay, dude.
Yeah.
What, what, yeah, actually that's a
Anja: great, great, um, thread
to, to catch onto, like, have
you experienced much hate since
you've started the podcast?
Bram: No.
Only when in real life when, um,
go to a conference or something,
it's, it's only positive.
And of course you have comments
on YouTube, but I think
they're actually pretty rare.
I do think there's some sort of
like YouTube bot network that
has anti Bitcoin comments, but
that's a different conversation.
But no, there's, there's
sometimes there's just negative.
There's just.
There's negative, but there's
always negative people, so
it's, yeah, I don't know.
I don't care.
Anja: It doesn't for you.
I don't,
Bram: I don't, I don't, I don't do what
I do for the people that are negative.
Like I don't, yeah.
You know, like, yeah, whatever.
No,
Anja: yeah.
No, that's interesting.
'cause they, I am just kind of
thinking of lack of some of the
things that I struggle with and that
one of them is negative comments.
Another thing which I just remembered
that I wanted to ask you about,
you said you're a perfectionist
and I'm a recovered perfectionist.
I've actually.
Really surprised myself, like with how
fast I've just launched myself into this.
And it does hurt my heart to
sometimes post because I'm like,
I didn't ask the best questions.
I forgot to ask this great follow up,
or My lighting isn't great, or, you
know, just the, and then I post anyway.
And he is just so embarrassing sometimes
Bram: to, to who?
You, to you.
But I agree.
I mean, I mean, I, I, I mean, I
I totally understand That's very
savvy what you're saying, huh?
No, but I mean, like it's
Anja: you to you.
Bram: Yeah.
But like you're embarrassing yourself.
Like, but, but then when you're
like, well, yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm,
I'm just doing what I would like
to do, what I think is valuable,
but that's what everyone is doing.
But it's only because you're aware
of it that you start to doubt
the, the choices you're making.
But it's the, um, but I mean, I have the
same, I, I saw, like, I have, uh, some
like single like talking head type videos.
I don't have a lot of tiktoks or
whatever, and I, I also run into this.
I'm like, I'm gonna sit here
and record and then like, what,
what the fuck do I have to say?
Right?
But when I'm with like friends or we
have like deep conversations, I'm just
like, whoa, these are like a thousand.
Like probably a hundred tiktoks
here that came out of my mouth.
Right.
But I didn't record them.
So I don't know.
I, I think everyone has their own
challenges with that, but I have
experienced that just continuing
to do it, uh, actually helps.
Anja: Yeah.
And, uh, feel with fear and do it anyway.
That's kind of what I
tell myself all the time.
Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Bram: Yeah, I mean it's, uh, it's um,
uh, do you know David Foster Wallace.
Anja: Mm. Sounds familiar.
Bram: Yeah, he's amazing.
Wait, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,
Anja (2): I'm gonna write this down.
Bram: I'm gonna look up the
quote he says, um, uh, yeah.
You become way less concerned with
what other people think of you when
you realize how seldom they do.
Anja: Yeah.
Bram: That's so fire.
I love that.
But it's true.
It's true.
Yeah.
And it's only, you know what's so funny?
I think this is how the universe works.
You only doubt yourself.
Or you only get, you only think
there's gonna be whatever comments
because you decided to do something.
So, you know, this is the same
thing as what we talked about.
When you, when you decide, oh, you
know, the money is fucked, I need
to figure out what I can do, and you
end up with Bitcoin, all the doubt,
all the whatever comes after that is,
is, is only a result of your choice.
So there isn't really.
It's all from inside, if that makes sense.
Like it's a con your, your, your, what
you feel as a perfectionist or like,
oh, should I do this or did I do?
It only comes from the fact that you
thought you would wanna do a podcast.
Okay.
So now what?
You, you stopped the podcast.
No.
You know what I mean?
It is
Anja (2): about, it's so funny.
Bram: It took me a really long time.
It took me a really long time
to, to understand that this is
how it works, at least for me.
You know, you are in a situation because
of e everything you decided, uh, before.
Yeah.
So, okay.
My,
Anja: my, my goal, it's
interesting you said, uh, a hundred
episodes because that's my goal.
Like, there's so many moments where I
like, kind don't think about quitting,
but I'm like, yeah, no, I'm just gonna
hit a hundred and then decide what to do.
So,
Bram: helped me a lot.
Yeah.
Anja: Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but one of the wrap up questions I
wanted to ask you, um, 'cause obviously
there's still a lot of people that
are interested in contributing to the
Bitcoin space in their own way, and I
think for a lot of people podcasting
is, is is like on, on top of their list
or top of their mind, do you think?
Podcasting Bitcoin podcasts are
like an oversaturated market.
Bram: No.
Anja: Every podcaster says that.
Bram: No, because I, I talk about Bitcoin
in a different way than you talk about it.
So that's the main argument.
I think you, you, um, you know, it,
it, it's funny like when you, when
you, when I think about like, uh, like
how, like where, where's everyone at?
You have like.
Like, like vertical pillars and
there's like horizontal pillars.
It's like a grid, right?
And, and I'm somewhere on this grid
and, and you are somewhere on this
grid, like not necessarily high or low,
whatever, like you are somewhere, right?
And you came there by all
the stuff you did before.
And I came where I'm at, but
there's basically an infinite
amount of layers above and below
and left and left and right.
Okay.
So, um.
Like I said, how I talk about
Bitcoin is different than how,
how you talk about it and it will
appeal to, to different people.
Just like, um, you know,
I think every few years.
At least in Bitcoin, there's like a
different group of people that are
like, Hey, I wanna contribute to this
thing, you know, maybe I should start a
podcast or write a book or, uh, whatever.
And like I said, you know, talking to VJ
yesterday, who wrote an article nine years
ago, that really opened my eyes to like
the bigger picture idea of of, of Bitcoin.
He inspired me to do my thing.
And maybe I partially
inspired you to do your thing.
Like this is, this is the chain, right?
And.
I think that is just really nice.
And also when, you know, I sometimes
look at messages I get, I, I had a
few weeks ago, I had a guy who sent
me like, Hey, I found you on YouTube,
and I watched a bunch of stuff.
Then I found Breed Love,
and then I found Sailor.
And I was like, what a weird sequence,
because for me it was breed love
sailor, uh, and all these other people.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
So, so you don't really know how,
um, how you talk about something
actually, how far it could reach
who it could touch and, and also how
yeah, how it resonates, um, with them.
You have your own way of, of, of
reflecting on it and talking about it.
And I think, I think that's,
um, amazing and, and super cool.
And I hope you reach way more
people that I cannot reach.
And this is also cool about
Bitcoin, don't you think like we
are contributing to the same thing?
Like if, if you reach 10 million
people, that's good for me too.
Anja: I love it.
I love it.
And like I've, I've only had support
from other podcasters as well, which is
like, I feel like that doesn't really
happen as much in any other industry
because a lot of us care about adoption
more than we do kind of competition.
So, yeah, that's really lovely.
But last wrap up question is, is there
something you're excited for for this
year and do you have any final thoughts
you wanna leave with my audience?
Um,
Bram: well, I, this year, I
don't know, I, I, um, yeah, I'm,
I'm just a hardcore huddler.
I'm not a prize guy.
I am not a, like, super macro, you know,
what is happening today, type, uh, person.
I, I do, I do follow it, but.
Um, I think over time I just built my
own understanding and conviction, and
I do try to challenge that obviously
because it's in my self-interest
to understand what I'm holding.
Um, I. So, yeah, I'm just holding, I'm,
I'm just like, I look at it, at this, uh,
as something that is entertaining now.
Like, I just want to see
how this is gonna play out.
And I've always seen Bitcoin as
it's either zero or it's, it's the
black hole of value and everything
is gonna be measured in Bitcoin.
I don't think there's like a mi a, a
a, a middle of the road ending for,
uh, Bitcoin, if that makes sense.
So.
In that sense, I'm also all in.
I think this is a, an an, an
asymmetric opportunity and a necessity,
um, for me and, uh, my children.
And that is what I'm going for.
And, uh, I think like 6, 6, 7 years
ago, I read this post on X by someone
who said, well, if you, if you think
Bitcoin is not going to zero, you
should get a seat in the stadium.
And I thought that was
a really interesting.
Way to frame the fact that, yeah, I should
be there, like if it happens, right?
And, and for example, if it happens meant,
uh, it was uh, a hundred K Bitcoin, right?
I wanna be there.
Like I wanna see it, you know,
what does that look like?
Are our brains gonna melt?
Is the internet gonna melt?
Well at a hundred K?
We had deafening silence,
but that was just fun.
Like, it's fun to see.
Um, it's fun to be early.
It's hard, but it's also
fun to be early because if.
If it's gonna play out, like we think
we're gonna look back and think, think
about this time in an amazing way.
So yeah, I'm just, I'm, I'm
just having fun in that sense.
I'm, I'm entertained and, um,
that's kind of how I look at it.
And, and maybe.
What I want to like, so I don't really,
yeah, I don't know about this year.
I don't, I don't really know.
I'm just following along.
That's kind of the,
that's kind of the answer.
Anja: You're here for the entertainment.
Bram: Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, most entertaining
outcome is the most likely.
So, um, um, and I think what I would
like to leave people with is, um.
I really realized that, uh, you know,
and that's what we talked about, the once
you realize that you're in this sort of
like rat race or race of time or whatever
you wanna call it, constructed by other
people for you without your consent or
whatever, you're just in there, right?
And, and, and, and, and along your growing
up people shape, shape that for you.
Once you step out of that.
Mentally one and then financially two.
Yeah.
You, you can really create your
own path and, and, and you're
not running, you're like walking.
Right.
So I always say like, oh, I'm,
I'm, I feel mentally retired.
You know, like it's, I
it's, um, thought you said
retired, retarded, mentally retarded.
Yeah.
Maybe also, I don't know.
Um, but um.
I don't know.
I'm just excited about the future.
I'm hopeful, and, um, I don't feel
distracted by all the things that
people are distracted with every day.
And, and that by itself,
despite any financial aspect, is
incredibly freeing and rewarding.
So, yeah, I, I, I, I hope, uh, I'm able
to, to convey that to other people that
I think that is the main invitation.
Um.
As to how, how you can
free your mind more.
Anja: Yep.
It's a peaceful life.
Thank you for your time.
Bram: Of course.
Thank you.
And uh, really enjoyed it.
Cheers.
Anja: Likewise.
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