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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: For our first episode of 2026, we wanted to give you our dear listener. The best start possible on everyone's minds are the opportunities and risks that AI brings with it in the, in the years ahead.
[00:00:12] Dan: Without a doubt, we are living through one of the biggest changes in human history, so it's understandable that we may be a little uncertain, or even a little fearful. The best approach in our view is to take a balanced view and then take action to experiment and move forward. That balance is hard to achieve, but our guest in this episode is uniquely placed to provide it.
[00:00:32] Dan: Jon Whittle has been involved in AI for over 30 years and has was until recently. The head of CSIRO's Data 61 unit That plays a key role in setting Australia's AI strategy. John's mature viewpoint is like balm in these torrid times, and he has some surprising advice on living life without technology.
[00:00:58] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We, not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:01:06] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:01:07] Dan: I think it's sort of a happy new Year, Pia.
[00:01:09] Pia: It is. 2026, the year of the horse.
[00:01:13] Dan: Now tell me about this, 'cause you're talking about this the other day. This is, this is promising, this is
[00:01:18] Pia: So astrologically, um, and I don't really know the details, so, uh, it'll probably be a bit light on, but we've had a snake year, which means transformation. So, you know, a snake has a skin shedding your skin, releasing things that aren't useful. but also in that trying to find out who you are, what's important. A bit of a recalibration, and then when we come through to the Chinese New Year, then the horse is a gallop. Right? Go for it. Really accelerate those changes and make that and make that happen.
[00:01:54] Dan: Ah, brilliant. Brilliant. Well on, honestly, um, I'm not a huge believer in those things, but I will do, and I'll take anything right now. So it's a bit of skin shedding and then get galloping. I, I, I like it and. You know, I think that the, as we said in the last episode of the year, it's a very hard time to, to be around generally definitely to be a leader, to be in a team.
[00:02:18] Dan: Um, and, um, yeah, a little bit of galloping might be the way, and I think, particularly this complexity that has been landed on us, you know, through. Almost COVID was a, was the, was a left, and now we've got this right hook, which is the ai. Um, and you know, what that's gonna do and, and leading in that time.
[00:02:41] Dan: It's a topic we spent a lot of time on last time, but I think today's episode, is gonna just really. think it goes even deeper into how we can, as humans, we need to, um, benefit from and, uh, be aware of, um, the dangers of, um, and take necessary action around this, around the advent of AI and this age. yeah, I think this is, this is a really, really great interview and I think we'll really settle people into the year and give them a new way of thinking about things and new things to do
[00:03:13] Pia: and refocus back on the human, not just get on, get excited on the shiny objects, but actually what the human needs to be. So I think that, go back, that astrological, that's the shedding,
[00:03:24] Dan: correct.
[00:03:25] Dan: Nice link. Gotta give it to you, Pierre. That was a superb segue. So we are talking to Jon Whittle, um, who until recently was the, um, was the head of data 61, um, in, in Australia basically heading up Australia's AI strategy and he. As we'll hear in a moment. I don't wanna give too much, don't steal his thunder. But he's been thinking about and acting in AI for a very long time. And, uh, the, the fruits of his, um, his thinking are in this interview that's coming up. It's a really good one. Let's go and hear him now.
[00:04:02] Jon: And on the day that, uh, social media has been banned for under sixteens, what a perfect guest we have today. And, uh, we're very excited to have Jon Whittle, who until very recently was the CEO of CI SROs, data 61. welcome to the show.
[00:04:23] Jon: Hello. Thank you for having me.
[00:04:25] Jon: Oh, it's pleasure. Absolute pleasure. So, um. We could jump into an ai, and this is an experience not for AI at all, because we've gotta put you in there as a, as a normal human being. So you get subjected to a random card that actually Dan shuffles in good
[00:04:41] Dan: I, yeah, it's very analog. I occasionally, I, I, if I'm traveling, I forget these cards and I have to go online and find these cards and sort of do a fake shuffle. But this is a real analog human shuffle.
[00:04:53] Dan: Um, we've had this one before, but it's always a nice one. My perfect day is, what's your perfect day, Jon? What does that look like?
[00:05:00] Jon: Oh, look, I think I just had it actually. Um, so I, I, I just. Treated myself to a solo holiday to the Gold Coast, um, in Australia only for a couple of days, and largely because I had, um, some travel credit that I needed to use it by the end of the year. And so I looked, it was like $500 and I looked, where can I go over $500? And the answer came back and said the Gold Coast.
[00:05:27] Jon: So I had, and I was by myself, which I don't normally go on holiday by myself and stayed in a reasonably nice hotel, but, um, had the perfect day of just hanging out by the pool for a couple of hours, went to the gym for an hour, read my book that I'm reading.
[00:05:43] Jon: Um, and it was wonderful because there were no deadlines. Um, you know, no, no place to get to. And I gave myself permission not to go sightseeing or anything like that. So it was the perfect day. I think
[00:05:57] Jon: Yeah. At those time, that time when you, you can, you sort of cut loose and your brain isn't making you agitated, you can really sink into it that, that they're my best days on a holiday when you just completely melt into the day.
[00:06:11] Dan: And that thing about not having things to do. We are, we're so wired, aren't we? I mean, every weekend I've got a, I've got my little Kanban and I've got tasks to push through about those days where you can find, but nope, there's nothing, nothing in there. So
[00:06:24] Jon: We are, and it's a, it's a, it's a problem with modern life. I think we're, we're always rushing onto the next thing. Never enjoying the, the thing that we're actually engaged with, you know?
[00:06:34] Dan: I think we are like those, uh, those bad drivers on the motorway in the outside lane. They go up behind someone and then that person pulls over. They go up behind the next one. That's just, that's how we live life, isn't it? Um, well, that, that sounds idyllic, Jon. Well, well done. That's not a, that's very well planned. Um, but let talk us, talk us through the, the past. Give us a little bio in a box for Jon Whittle.
[00:06:55] Jon: Yeah. So, um, so I'm Jon Whittle. Um, moved to Australia in 2017, having a ball here, living in Melbourne. Um. I work in the field of ai, as you know. Um, but I've been in, I've been in the field of AI for quite a long time. In fact, it's almost 30 years ago to the day that I started my PhD in artificial intelligence, um, back in Scotland at the University of Edinburgh.
[00:07:19] Jon: Um, back then it was one of the very few places in the world where you could do a PhD in ai. And I, yeah, I did a PhD trying to get computers to prove mathematical theorems, which was very, very hard, at least at the time. Um, af after that I was very lucky because, um, my supervisor came to me one day and said, oh, I've just been to this conference in the States and I've met these people from nasa and they, they, they're hiring people in ai.
[00:07:46] Jon: And I told 'em about you. And they want to talk to you. Um, and I, I don't think I really quite registered what he'd said, uh, when he said nasa,
[00:07:55] Dan: There's a lot in there, isn't there?
[00:07:57] Jon: yeah, well I think, I think I said to him very naively, I said, oh, nasa, do, do they have an office in London or something? And, and. And he is like, no, no, they're in, they're in California.
[00:08:09] Jon: and when I, when I kind of picked myself up off the floor, I said, uh, sure, I'll talk to them. And one thing led to another, they flew me out for an interview and they hired me. And a few months later I found myself living in Silicon Valley working for nasa, um, doing what I think it would, I still consider to be aI that is ahead of its time. They were, they were using ai, well, they were putting AI in space. and I, I distinctly remember there was this thing called Deep Space one, which was a deep space probe.
[00:08:42] Jon: And they were, they put AI on this deep space probe as an experiment, and the plan was that they were going to press a button and turn the ai AI on and it was going to take full autonomous control of the spacecraft for a 24 hour period.
[00:08:58] Jon: Um, and I was very, very lucky because I happened to be in the control room. When they pressed the switch to turn the AI on, and let me tell you the, the kind of sigh of relief when somebody pressed the button and the thing didn't fall out of the sky, um, was a joy to behold. So it's a real lasting memory, um, in my career, I think, you.
[00:09:20] Jon: But yeah, fast forward to today. So I've just, I've just come off the back of a role leading, um, data 61, which is Australia's national ai, um, r and d center. Um, had great fun there doing things where we also put some AI into space. Actually, I had the team that put some AI on a thing called Astro B, which is a floating robotic cube.
[00:09:43] Jon: That is currently on the International Space Station and it's got some AI on it, so it's effectively, um, a astronaut's assistant that can do tasks on the behalf of an astronaut. Um, so did more space, but also my teams were doing, um, AI to help preserve the Great Barrier Reef, um, or fight bushfire. Some really very, very cool stuff, um, going on there.
[00:10:09] Jon: tell us about that role and your leadership style working with engineers and scientists. Like what, what, how did you bring the best out of all of them together in the organization?
[00:10:24] Jon: Uh, good question. Probably have to ask them, but I'll give it a go. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll make up some lies and then they can write in and tell me how, how wrong I'm, you know. Yeah. Uh, look, it's, it's a, it's, it's part of C-S-I-R-O, which is Australia's National Science Agency, and that covers. Pretty much every scientific discipline you can imagine.
[00:10:44] Jon: Uh, environmental science, health, manufacturing, energy. Um, and the, the part of it that does anything digital is data 61. but it's quite a large team that I had, so it's about 500 scientists and engineers and support staff all across Australia doing real kind of cutting edge.
[00:11:04] Jon: R and d, um, not just in ai, also cybersecurity, um, and software engineering and various other things, but really trying to solve some of society's kind of greatest challenges. Um, and a little bit different from a university. It wasn't just research for writing papers, but it was really about getting real solutions into the hands of real people.
[00:11:26] Jon: So much more applied than a typical university. I think for me, um, like my, my, that's my leadership style or my personality, but I am, I, I, I like to have grand visions, I guess you would say. You know, I, that's what kind of drives me and kind of gets me outta bed in the morning. Um, and so when I, when I came to Australia in 2017, one of my first observations was that we've got absolutely fantastic AI capability in Australia. I think we've got four universities in the top 100 for AI globally. but not a lot of people in the rest of the world know that. And so I really kind of set, set upon myself to say, well, what, what can we do to kind of, lift the visibility of AI in Australia?
[00:12:14] Jon: And for me, that was about. Bringing people together. Um, because for a small country, we're only 26 million people, but we, we, we, we don't tend to come together very well. We can tend to be quite fragmented and compete with each other internally rather than coming together and competing with the rest of the world.
[00:12:31] Jon: So, so one of the things I did when I was there, for example, um, I founded. Um, what is now Australia's National AI center, and that really was all about trying to bring people together from across the entire ecosystem, whether that's universities or industry or, or students. There's a very large student program, um, attached to that.
[00:12:52] Jon: So yeah, I guess that's my leadership style, I think, is to try and set a compelling North star that people will get excited about and that they'll buy into.
[00:13:02] Jon: And do you think, and this is I guess a bit of a contentious question, do you think we've got a collective North staff of what we want AI to achieve for humanity, or, or is it a bit of a race, race to the top
[00:13:14] Jon: it's a, it's a really good question. So one, one of the things about AI is that it's full of paradoxes. and I think, even if we look at the kind of the major figures working in the big tech companies in the field, I, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they really do want to create artificial intelligence to better serve humanity.
[00:13:40] Jon: I think that's, I think that's reasonable to, that they, that they, that that's what's driving them. I also think it's, it's, it's an arms race, And it's, it's about, you know, you know, who can make the most money out of this thing as well. So I think both things are going on, but one, one thing that you get very comfortable with working in the field of AI is sitting with paradoxes because they are everywhere.
[00:14:08] Jon: And even, even for me, I feel it. Every day in my life because in many, many ways I love ai. I have been working in the field for 30 years. Um, again, I, I really am a firm believer that it's, it's a, it can be a positive force for society. But there are also things that I'm really concerned about, and I've been thinking a lot recently, for example, about, you know, pretty fundamental things like what does it mean to be human in a world where AI is everywhere.
[00:14:44] Jon: And, and I'm, and I'm not talking, you know, some people talk about kind of existential threats with ai. You know, the, the robots are gonna take over the world and decide that they don't need humans. I don't believe that for a second. It's, it's things like, you know, what will happen to human connection, um, when AI is everywhere. Um, how will it affect the way we behave as human beings? How will it affect our psychology? Will it, will it, will it even change the, the size of our brains? Because if we're offloading all the hard work to a machine, um, this, this, this actually some evidence that shows that historically, um, technological developments that actually can lead to brain.
[00:15:25] Jon: Shrinkage because we don't need as big a brains anymore if we're kind of offloading things to technology. So I think there's some really fundamental questions, which I admit I don't have the answers to yet, but I'm thinking a lot about, and writing a lot about, which is, what does it mean to be human in an AI world?
[00:15:40] Dan: So, um, what have you come up with so far
[00:15:44] Jon: well there's, look, there's a dif, there's lots of different dimensions to this, so, um. I'll, I'll throw a few things out and then we can decide which ones we want to talk about, but there's, there's the whole productivity question and, what that means for humanity. There's, you know, what, what AI means for human to human connections.
[00:16:04] Jon: Um, there's, there's what. AI means for, um, you know, our kind of psychology. Um, and I just, I just wrote an article saying that AI might be turning us all into narcissists, for example, which we can delve into. But maybe I'll start with the productivity one. So, I mean, productivity's an interesting one because that's the main.
[00:16:24] Jon: Selling point for AI right now. That's the kind of narrative, which is that, you know, AI is gonna speed you up, it's gonna take care of all those boring tasks that you don't want to do. And that's true to an extent, but I, I think I question the underlying premise of all of that. And think, you know, should, should the goal be just to speed everything up all the time?
[00:16:50] Jon: Because I think the danger with that is that we all end up as hamsters on a wheel and we're just going faster and faster and faster and, and, you know, it's already happening and we're, we're trying, trying to keep up. Um, you know, there's some evidence in organizations for example, that, you know, if you use AI to save a few hours a week, that doesn't necessarily mean you go to the, the beach on a Friday afternoon.
[00:17:14] Jon: All it means is that this could be more work to fill that gap that you've created. It probably means that your managers are gonna have higher expectations of you than they did before, and so it could potentially lead to increased workplace stress.
[00:17:29] Dan: It's, yeah, it's so in. I think that's a really interesting one, Jon, because other technological developments like computing the internet. You know, they've all come with this promise of leisure, but actually what we do is, as you say, we fill that time for a start with our human humanity, human time, but also it, as you say, it actually accelerates things. That has not been the case up to now.
[00:17:53] Jon: Yeah. And, and so I think, um, I, I think for me there's a couple of things to think about to solve that problem. So, so firstly, I think this is the big challenge that a lot of organizations are facing now is that individual workers might be getting, um, productivity increases on individual tasks, but that's not necessarily aggregating up to an organizational level.
[00:18:16] Jon: And that's because organizations are complex and as soon as you created a space, there's more noise that kind of fills that. Space. Um, I think meetings are a good or pointless meetings are a, a great example of this.
[00:18:29] Jon: So I, I just, I just wrote an article that said that meetings are the organizational equivalent of doom scrolling. Um, because they, they, they seem very engaging when we're swiping or going to those meetings, but they ultimately don't really achieve much and their leave is very kind of unfulfilled at the end of the day, and they're very addictive. Right. So I think that we, we actually. It is not about putting AI as a bandaid onto a broken system. You have to address the underlying system.
[00:19:02] Jon: But the other way I think about it, and, and again, I don't have the answer here, but I'm, I'm a big fan of Cal Newport. I dunno if you've come across him. He's a, um, computer scientist, I think at Georgetown University, and he, he talks about slow. Productivity. Um, he's got a book on the topic and the point he makes is that if you want to be productive and being productive is a good thing, it's not necessarily about speeding up. It, it, it can actually be about slowing down. And we all know this because probably you, like me, some of your best ideas you probably had in your life didn't come to you when you were sitting at a desk trying to move between Tenderfoot. Browser taps. It probably happened when you took a break.
[00:19:47] Jon: You went for a walk, took a shower, and things like that. So I'm really interested in, you know, could we think about AI differently and stop thinking of it as a way to speed things up, but actually thinking of it a way to slow us down so that we get that space for kind of deep thinking. And that then allows creativity, which actually ultimately leads to increases in productivity.
[00:20:12] Jon: And it's interesting, I think I, we actually had a, had an example of that we, um. Dan. Dan and I as part of the Spotify work have found that clarity is often missing for many teams. So we help them to define that clarity. And what becomes painful is trying to wordsmith multiple inputs of ideas and everyone's sort of, you know, you can feel the energy drain outta the room.
[00:20:37] Jon: And we recently created a product which had an AI behind it, which clustered ideas created. Specific drafts, and what I've really noticed is how the energy really picks up in the room because they're because. We're taking the pain outta the wordsmithing and they're actually really wanting to slow down to put their thinking into it and contribute.
[00:21:01] Jon: And we've had some teams that actually maybe weren't getting on so well together, suddenly all finding actually they're fully engaged in the process. Then it's a what problem are you trying to solve and then how does it. Actually accelerate and and augment support human connection.
[00:21:19] Jon: Absolutely. And it, and what probably we're trying to solve is what I always say to organizations as well, because there, there's a tendency for organizations to go down this path of saying, you know, we've gotta apply ai. Everybody else is applying ai. We've got to apply it to. And so they run a workshop and everybody kind of dreams up different AI use cases where they could apply ai and they end up with lots of post-it notes around the room.
[00:21:42] Jon: But they've never actually sat and thought about what problem are we actually trying to solve here? So I al I, you know, I always say, in fact, I usually say, look, it's not very sexy, but you actually need to go back to your business strategy here. Um, what's, what's, what's your ob, what's your objectives that you're trying to achieve?
[00:21:58] Jon: What are the pain, pain points there? And then ask yourself. Can AI help you solve those? And look, sometimes it can, but sometimes it can't and it's not the right solution, and that's okay as well, you
[00:22:09] Dan: What a topic too that you mentioned there, Jon. That's fascinating. And I, I know it's challenging convention there in a really productive way. I think a really useful way. Um, human connection. Jon. Talk, talk about that. That's just, we spend a lot of time on this. How's that gonna look?
[00:22:24] Jon: This is probably something we all struggle with, right? So we are, we are, um, Chained to our screens more than ever before. I've got, um, twin daughters, two 11-year-old girls, and so I, I, I, you know, I see their behavior with screens. Um, but, you know, this is not a, a kid problem. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm also quite happy to waste my time doom scrolling if I get into that kind of habit. As well. Right.
[00:22:53] Jon: so, I think there's a, there's a, there's a general question which is, you know, how do we get the balance right? Because I'm not saying throw your screens away, don't do any of that, 'cause there's lots of benefits. But I think we need to think about getting the balance rights so we're spending the right amount of time on our screens, but also the right amount of time connecting with other humans. Um, which I think is ultimately the end of the day what enriches. Our lives. I think AI risks kind of exacerbating those problems.
[00:23:25] Jon: And I'll give you a, a simple example, which I find curious. So remember a few months ago I met this guy and he told me how he likes to walk his dog. In the morning and he puts his headphones on and he talks to his a, his AI while he goes for a walk. And basically he has a rant to his ai, um, gets, uh, all the problems that he's got, and the AI, of course, very politely listens and says, you know, gives him advice and, and whatever.
[00:23:55] Jon: And this guy, his, his very excited about this. His basic argument about this was he said, look, this is wonderful because I no longer have to bother my wife with my problems. Um, so we have a better relationship. And on the surface of it, that sounds right, right? It sounds correct and good. But then I thought actually is, is that actually a good thing?
[00:24:17] Jon: Because surely you, you create a deep and long lasting relationship where you go, when you go through struggles. Together, you know, and I think, you know, part of that relationship building is actually to share your problems together and to, to get advice, even if it's not very good advice from your significant other.
[00:24:39] Jon: So again, I'm not saying you shouldn't talk to ai, I, I talk to AI myself, but I think the question to me. Is what, how do we get the balance right and how do we make sure that, um, we're not neglecting those human connections, um, because of the ai, you know, we're seeing a big trend now in kind of AI therapists, um, or, or AI companions.
[00:25:04] Jon: again, not necessarily a bad thing. I can see that there, there could, there can be a lot of benefits to that, but, um, I think used with care is what I would say,
[00:25:14] Jon: And they're also, they're actually singular activities because the, the, the thing that you are conversing with is not a person, it's Not a human. so you are it is a singular, even though it, it is a conversation that you're engaging with, you're actually having a conversation with a machine and yourself.
[00:25:34] Jon: I think it's, look, I, I, I, I truly believe, and this is very obvious to me, that. As human beings, we actually want to connect with other human beings. Right. Not with machines. And I, and again, I'll give you a, perhaps a little silly example of where this is evident. Um, so I, I've been involved in or attended probably hundreds of AI talks and panels over the recent couple of years.
[00:26:03] Jon: And not once has there been an actual AI on the panel. That people go and listen to. Not once. It's always been, it's always been humans. Now that's not because the humans are smarter than the AI because they're, they're definitely not. If it, if it was just about communicating information, you put an AI up there because they've got access to more information, but.
[00:26:26] Jon: People want to have an emotional connection with a, a speak a speaker on the panel. They, they come away feeling fulfilled when they feel like they've made some kind of connection with that speaker. And, and that's, I, I think that's something that you can't get from, from an, from an ai. And so, you know, if you are, if you are using those, if you're conversing with those ais in your daily life at the expense of that human connection, I think you're losing something.
[00:26:53] Jon: And that's an interesting one. Uh, there's a, I, I live in Byron, and a word that is really well, banded around up here and done I've talked about is embodiment. You know, that, that, that we have, we are losing that capacity to, to be grounded. And to feel, and it's, it's so cerebral where we're sort of existing from.
[00:27:13] Jon: And that's partly why we are not able to connect, because we're not connecting fully as a human being on multiple levels. It's it, we're thinking through our heads rather than, uh, add the whole experience, which I think is really interesting because, and then you add that pace on top of that.
[00:27:31] Jon: And we, and we don't get the. Time and the luxury, like you've just had to just really kind of melt in and sometimes spontaneously create conversations and interesting things. which is what we crave.
[00:27:45] Jon: Yeah, indeed. So I'm, I'm trying to, go a bit kind of old school with a few things now. So I, I, I'm putting a lot more time into meeting face-to-face with new people than I have in the past. So, um, you know, the na the nature of my role was always that, you know, people would kind of reach out to me and saying, Hey, are you free for coffee? And my, my reaction used to be, well, no, I'm not, I'm far too far too busy to be
[00:28:13] Dan: having a coffee
[00:28:13] Dan: an
[00:28:14] Jon: hour. A
[00:28:15] Dan: you
[00:28:15] Jon: know, like, why would I do that? Who, what do you want from me? Just tell me what you want and I'll
[00:28:19] Dan: There's a more efficient way of doing this. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:22] Jon: But I've changed, really changed my view on that now, so, and. You know, within reason, I, I will say, yeah, you know what, I'd be very happy to kind of meet with you for coffee, um, and use it as an active form of networking. And it's something I'm getting a lot of fulfillment out. I'm not a natural network. I'm actually a, a kind of introverted person by nature, so it's not something that comes easy to me.
[00:28:45] Jon: But I often say, doing that kind of networking, it's a bit like going to the gym. In the sense that, you know, you, you might, you, you, you really don't want to go to the gym. You know, you, you say, I'm gonna go to the gym today, and you really don't wanna do it. And then you kind of dread going, right. But you never once come out of the gym saying, I really wish I hadn't gone to the gym today.
[00:29:05] Jon: And net networking's a bit, or meeting people, uh, face-to-face, one-on-one is a bit like that. You know, you can, I, I dread it sometimes. Um, you know, what will I say? You know, how will I keep the conversation going? But invariably. You learn something no matter who it is that you come away. Never regretting that you've made that time.
[00:29:25] Jon: and and interestingly enough. Dog parks are the best place to meet people. So if you've got your headphones on you, you're actually missing the prime opportunity because that, that's where you pick up real snippets and, and sometimes it's not the deep conversations with individuals, it's the ritualistic ones, the people that you see on the way to the coffee shop or to the,
[00:29:47] Jon: I really noticed that in COVID lockdown had that got taken away and I, and I think we lost, we atrophied some of us. Our, our natural skills that we didn't realize we were doing.
[00:29:58] Jon: Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's, um, you know, as you say, it's not, you don't need to have deep conversations with these people that you meet. Right? You know, it, it could be the receptionist at the hotel or the, the, the, the server that welcomes you to a restaurant. And instead of just treating those as kind of perfunctory interactions that you.
[00:30:18] Jon: Get through as quickly as possible. I'm trying to make an active effort now, not to start up a big conversation, but just, just to say simple things like, you know, how are you enjoying your day? Um, or, or, or say thank you. Even for little, little things. The, the, I think thank you is the most powerful word in the English language actually. Um, you see people's faces kind of light up, um, when you even thank you for checking me in, you know, it's like, wow, someone's thanking me for, for doing what I do all day long.
[00:30:48] Pia: What I've been paid to do.
[00:30:49] Jon: Exactly
[00:30:51] Dan: Yeah, it's, yeah, it's human recognition, isn't it? Yes. It's gratitude and all that sort of stuff, but it's actually, I see you, um, you've been a person, not just, well, actually and literally. You're performing a role that one day might be done by, by a, um, by an ai and, but I'm gonna still gonna be grateful to you. Yeah, absolutely. Um,
[00:31:09] Dan: Jon, uh, talking about human connection, I did say we talk about Indian dancing. Let's go there. We talk. What's your what? I, I have to say, we, we asked ai, we asked copilot to brief us on our chat with you and it, and it found this little gem about you. So, um, so yeah. What, role has that
[00:31:27] Jon: taken?
[00:31:28] Dan: you know?
[00:31:30] Dan: Well, it's, it's a good one though.
[00:31:33] Jon: Yeah, look, I'll tell you the story. So, um. The, and there's a few threads to this story, so I'll try and keep it short, but, um, I, I, I learned an Indian classical dance called Pudi, um, for about 10 years. And I performed it. In fact, I once performed it in India in front of about 2000 people. Um, the reason I got into it is that I, I've always had a kind of theatrical bent ever since I was at university.
[00:31:59] Jon: I got into theater then, um, found that I really enjoyed it. In fact, coming back to my naturally introverted nature, I found that it was a way to kind of come out my myself, if you like. Um, which is very common, I think, for actors. But I, I got. Um, by pure chance, interested in what they call physical theater, which is, um, not just about speaking words, but more about movement and, you know, things like maam, but not just mime.
[00:32:27] Jon: Um, so I got really interested in that. And then I had a really good friend in San Francisco where I was living at the time, who was a dancer, and she said to me, oh, you know, you should really learn some dance 'cause that would help you with your physical theater. And as, as luck would have it, um, I was about to go and travel to India.
[00:32:45] Jon: For four weeks and do a bit of traveling around. And India has got this incredibly rich cultural history, um, with, you know, some very kind of, um, deep traditions in dance. So I thought, you know what? I'll kill two birds with one stone. I'll, I'll learn some dance while I'm over there and learn a bit about the culture as well.
[00:33:03] Jon: So I took a five day workshop, um, in Bangalore, um, on Indian classical dance. And yeah, ended up, studying it for about 10 years. You know, but it was a, it, it's a, it was a great thing for me because it's, you know, it's centuries and centuries of tradition.
[00:33:21] Jon: So it is one of those things that the more you learn. The less you realize, you know? and I think that that really fits my kind of personality. 'cause, you know, most of, even, most of my career moves, they've been fundamentally about being about trying to learn new things. And so I kind of loved this classical dance because it was a never ending learning opportunity.
[00:33:46] Jon: And does that signify your life and your approach to life and that you're, that you're, you are taking steps, but you're continually learning you're never there.
[00:33:56] Jon: that is the problem, right? I'm, I'm never there. I'm, I'm never satisfied. I'm always thinking about the new, the next thing. And you know, I mean that I, I have at times in my life tried to take deliberate attempts to kind of, um, you know, take the time. To write down achievements and celebrate achievements and things like that.
[00:34:16] Jon: But I think it does. I mean, I, I sometimes say to people that, you know, I, I have a tendency to kind of change roles every kind of five years or so, and I sometimes say to people, oh, that's 'cause I get bored. Um, and then I need to, need to move on to the next thing after five years. But it's not really boredom, it's, it's more the fact that, you know, I think every role I've gone into, I've quite consciously gone in.
[00:34:39] Jon: Knowing that there are things about that role that I need to learn, um, skills that I don't have, and then typically tends to be, you know, after that kind of five year period, I feel like I've learned those skills. Um, and it's time to fill other gaps, in my, in my skills and my knowledge.
[00:34:56] Jon: So then I have to ask them, so what's next?
[00:34:58] Jon: Oh, well, I can't say.
[00:35:00] Jon: Oh, that. But there is something brewing.
[00:35:03] Jon: um, I, I will tell you, um, that it will involve helping organizations to understand AI and adopt AI in an effective way and in a human centered way. and that's, I've been doing a lot of work over the last couple of years going into boards and, um, leadership teams and, helping them with that.
[00:35:25] Jon: And I, I found that it gives me a lot of energy. And in, and in fact the, you know, what, what, what is, what is, what is coming next? It's, I'm kind of at a point in my life where, again, I've made a conscious decision because, um, a, a kind of mentor of mine told me at one point said, said, make, make a list of all the things you do in your role and put it in two column, in two columns, the col, the columns of those that give you energy and the columns that drain your energy and.
[00:35:55] Jon: That made me realize that the things that give me energy are kind of, you know, helping businesses, educating, um, uh, kind of senior leaders, kind of thought leadership, those kind of things. And that's where I wanted to kind of focus my time and, and, and really focus on the things that give me energy.
[00:36:13] Dan: And have you by any chance captured some of your thinking on AI in some written form
[00:36:18] Jon: Well, I might have done, um, could possibly, I could, I couldn't possibly say. The many, many, many written forms. But, um, I, I do have a new book coming out. Um, it's called AI for Business. So it's actually
[00:36:34] Jon: out January 19th, 2026. Um, but is available for pre-order before that. The reason I wrote the book is again, because I kept going into organizations, um, talking about ai, and they would always ask me the same question at the end of the session, which was, we know we need to.
[00:36:55] Jon: Adopt this AI thing, but where do we start? And so at one point I thought, well, I'm kind of sick of just repeating this answer all the time. I actually write this down in a book. Um, so the book's in four parts, and it's designed for kind of busy. Leaders who might not wanna sit down and read a whole book.
[00:37:13] Jon: So there's, I think there's about 20 chapters, but you can dip in and dip out. You can read any chapter independently of any other chapter, but there's four parts. The first part talks about kind of the background information on ai, bit of the history of it, which I think is really important. Actually, the second part focuses on the why.
[00:37:32] Jon: Which again, really, really important. Uh, why do you want to apply ai? and I give four reasons in the book that you might want to consider it. It might be for productivity, it might be to reduce costs. It might be to add value to your customers, or it might be to try and disrupt your business model.
[00:37:49] Jon: The third part is really about the how. So it's, you know, what does a good AI strategy look like? How do you come up with the appropriate use cases? How do you. Put the right organizational structures and governance in place, things like that.
[00:38:01] Jon: And then the fourth part of the book is what I call the bigger picture. So it's things like AI ethics and, um, AI and cybersecurity or environmental impact of ai and how you should be thinking about that. So yeah, hopefully it's, it's a, it's a accessible and, and fun read, but I guess we'll, we'll, we'll see, you
[00:38:22] Dan: Wonderful. All the details of that will be in the show notes. And Jon, I'm going to ask you to boil the book down to one thing because we always ask this question about a baby step. Um, you've done a lot of thinking, well, you've been working in AI for 30 years and you've been done a lot of thinking about this.
[00:38:35] Dan: Obviously people want to achieve different things in ai. What's the one thing that you find is most general, there's a really good way for people to engage, but as you do maintain their humanity in this new age? Well,
[00:38:46] Jon: Well, I think it's ex, it is exactly that. It's always put the human at the center of whatever AI project it is that you're trying to enact. Um, and I think that works at the macro level, whether you are, you know, Sam Altman or Elon Musk trying to, radicalize society in some way. But I think it also works at the micro level that if you are somebody in an organization and you're trying to use ai, um, you know, it might be a simple thing like, automating the writing of handover notes for nurses between shifts.
[00:39:24] Jon: Just, just always think of it through a human lens because that could be a great thing. Um, but there could be, there could be downsides to that as well. And by. putting the human at the center that will help you navigate through. you know, are there any, are there any kind of unintended consequences that you need to mitigate as part of what you're doing?
[00:39:43] Dan: wonderful. And our final question as always, Jon, what uh, media recommendation do you have for us? anything that's inspired, educated, or, well, it may maybe in your case particularly inspired you to new things.
[00:39:55] Jon: Well, look, I, again, I've, I'm going old school a bit and actually reading physical books, um, again, in a way that I hadn't for years, and I, I deliberately am not reading them on the, on a screen. But I've been, I've been reading this wonderful book that funnily enough, I. I came across it serendipitously in my local library, which is another thing I've started to do, which is just go to the local library and walk around until you see a title that you somehow connect with, and then check that book out and go and read it. So it's called, um. Turning down the noise, the quiet power of silence in a busy world. And it's written by a former Australian journalist called Christine Jackman. And it's really interesting 'cause the basic, she tells it as a kind of memoir, um, of her journey, if you'd like to try and find silence in a very modern.
[00:40:49] Jon: Very busy world and it really resonates with me because it connects with all the stuff that I've been reading about, you know, um, how to maintain balance with screens, but also the importance of kind of getting out into nature and.
[00:41:07] Jon: How, how beneficial that is for your health, physical and mental. And yeah, it tells her story of how she went through a journey that does include the things you mind to imagine, like mindfulness and meditation and Buddhist retreats and all of that stuff.
[00:41:23] Jon: But it also much more mundane stuff about, you know, going out and staring at the ocean and how that, that is just so good for you,
[00:41:32] Dan: Excellent. Good stuff. Um, but it just re remains for us to say thank you, Jon. You are, I feel like you are 30 years. We, we, there's a bit, there's a lot of enthusiasm about ai.
[00:41:42] Dan: There're probably people like us are new to it. I feel your 30 years of sort of wisdom of really. Brought that more measured, um, view to us. It's, it's a really powerful way of thinking about things. I think it'll be very helpful for our listeners. So thank you for bringing that to us and good luck with your next move.
[00:41:58] Jon: Yes. We'll be, look, we'll be waiting
[00:42:00] Dan: We'll,
[00:42:01] Jon: Me too.
[00:42:02] Jon: yeah.
[00:42:02] Dan: thanks for being on the show, Jon.
[00:42:04] Jon: uh, good luck with the book too.
[00:42:05] Jon: very much.
[00:42:08] Pia: I really liked how Jon framed AI as a paradox. You know, he, he talked about this huge potential to uplift and support humanity. And at the same time, it's a little bit of an arms race to the
[00:42:23] Pia: top or the bottom, depending on which way that you're seeing it. and and we just, we walk this tightrope of really trying to sell great intent. But I, I think de there's some knot in our stomachs. Not quite sure if it's
[00:42:38] Dan: Agreed. Agreed. I, I, I, I must say, I, I, I'm less optimistic than Jon about this because he's right. That he, you know, he's, well, he says he's sure that the founders in Silicon Valley have, you know, best intent and they tried to make the world a better place and they've got this profit motive. We know from the last 50 years or more that, that there is a, one of those has primacy and it is, it's the profit motive.
[00:43:04] Dan: And um, so I think we have the last 20 years have shown that, If you take social media as an example, the profit motive has driven everything. And, um, we've, we've really screwed up social media and screwed up our brains through it, through profit. Um, so I, I think that, yeah, he's right. There's a sort of good intent, but that does get squished, but I think by this profit motor.
[00:43:29] Dan: So I, I'm, I'm less optimistic, but, but then the question for me is, what do we do? What do we do? Because I think, I think, good will come of it. Um, and while yes, you know, the, um, you know, someone in Somalia can have, could, could very quickly have Mayo Clinic level medical attention. I suspect the people of Somalia will wait a long time for that because they're hard to monetize.
[00:43:57] Pia: That, that's exactly, that's it. I mean, and we can sometimes get really excited by the ideals, but they don't, they don't, no, they don't pay off. Um, and I think that. He talked about the slow productivity and that you know, that you could buy yourself more time. Um, and I, and again, I think that's an amazing ideal, but as humans, we then fill the time with stuff that, that isn't necessarily useful.
[00:44:25] Dan: Yeah, I thought that's so interesting. And actually Jon's the first person to really land on a clear answer here, I think, which was, you know, all these technologies in the past have sort of promised productivity. Then humans fill in the gaps. And I think that's the opportunity, isn't it? And how do we.
[00:44:41] Dan: Particularly in these times, use our save time not to do more tasks or find more agents to do more tasks, but to actually take that time, you know, it reminded me of being working in a team in business school where we had a mixed group and there was Americans. Italians French and you know, uh, the US way as I was mentioning when we were talking is, is really pragmatic and you find a solution fast and you go for it.
[00:45:07] Dan: It was so interesting. Italians are roving around the, uh, for example, as a culture. I'm sure there are other cultures like this, sort of looking for bigger mountains. To, you know, not just let's go up that little pill there, that's just what else is happening. So they zoom out and the French you get tend to get, in my experience, very quite philosophical.
[00:45:26] Dan: But in a way it's sort of, you know, we've got that us thing building our efficiency and drive, but how do we beca have these other elements, the sort of cultural elements of more of slower, bigger thinking potentially. Uh, because I think we all really need that in these times. And I thought it was a great, as you say, just a brilliant.
[00:45:45] Dan: Idea to sort of say, okay, I've got a bit more time. How can I slow things down? Have that slow productivity rather than more tasks.
[00:45:53] Pia: And this, is the bit that if we're, if we're channeling ourselves as human beings through our brains into a machine. We are not really existing as full human beings, so we're not, that's not what we were designed to be. We are quite physical. Um, we need to be outside. We need to, um, have some connection with the outside nature, whatever that looks like.
[00:46:19] Pia: And there is a danger, there is, is an addictive danger that we take another step to channeling. And even though we know that. It's not that great for our mental health, I love Jon's story about the person with the dog walk, having a, having an AI conversation. But, you know, where's his friends?
[00:46:39] Dan: Yeah. No, exactly. These are the things we know Make you healthy.
[00:46:42] Pia: Yeah.
[00:46:43] Pia: Like what's he doing for his own development? What's he. Trying to learn, like how's he trying to expand his own knowledge beyond having a machine who will, who are programmed to inflate your own ego. So I was listening to, um, Steve Bartletts podcast and he was, he was in interviewing Tristan Harris and they said, you know, there's a narcissistic element to this because it makes you feel really good and that's all being coded so, you are groomed, you are actually groomed.
[00:47:20] Dan: and I think that's the other thing, and you know, we talk that people should really be aware of like social media. You sort of think, wow, those TikTok videos, those reels are so addictive. Dude, you've been scienced into that. You know, this is. This is not, um, by accident that you are loving that.
[00:47:39] Dan: And the same thing here with this. Yeah. Drawing in that narcissistic element. Let's face it, we're all craving some sort of endorsement at the moment. And so in steams AI and yeah, it will be engineered to be addictive. I think your point about that is exactly right and it draws us away from the things that keep us alive.
[00:47:59] Dan: And one of the things I loved. About Jon Jon's been in AI for 30 years and he used this phrase, old school, um, which I've written in big capital letters, and I'm gonna stick on my, on, on my desk. I think because how I, I, I, I, you and I, we've always pushed forward where you're looking at technology.
[00:48:16] Dan: Technology has been really exciting. But I do want to think about how can I get a bit more old school, you know? Analog books. I've got a, um, a, a deck, uh, Christmas, I've rejected vinyl up to now. I saw my vinyl, I dunno, 30 years ago. Um, but I want you sort of feel like it's more tangible, tactile, human thing.
[00:48:37] Pia: there's a retro whiplash coming
[00:48:39] Dan: exactly. And I've always, and and actually it's so interesting 'cause there is a, in these times, even when, you know, when the economy's down, people get. Get retrospective and, and nostalgic. And that actually drives a lot of the far right. You know, make America great again, take back control.
[00:48:58] Dan: So there's some negatives to this. Um, but I think we can not just for nostalgia's purpose, not actually for nostalgia purpose at all, but just consciously saying, I'm gonna be old school. I'm going to go and. Not take my phone to the cafe and talk to people. I'm gonna be old school and walk the dog and not listen to something.
[00:49:17] Dan: I'm gonna be old school and read a paper book. You know, I think these things are, uh, as you say, it's, it's, it's all not for nostalgia's purpose, not for the reasons of nostalgia, but for reasons of health and humanity. You know, we need these things. It's a, it's a really good one. So I've written old school and big letters.
[00:49:36] Dan: That's, that's, that's my 2026. really good. By the way, I did um, have a little chuckle to myself, this man who is having his ranting at ai so he doesn't bother his wife. I was wondering what other aspects of relationship he'll outsource to machines. Um, so he doesn't have to bother his wife.
[00:49:54] Pia: that, and I can't remember what that, that again on, on this podcast, they talk about the statistics of people and I, I can't. I can't remember the number, but it was quite astonishing that have a romantic or a delusional relationship with aI and that. Uh, I mean, it's already huge in terms of sort of personal coaching and counseling and it, it's, it's the go-to.
[00:50:19] Dan: Yeah, and I liked, um, I liked the way that, um, once again, um, Jon was really balanced about this. You know, I don't think it's right to say how could people use chat, GPT as a therapist, go. It's brilliant. You know, get some help. We were talking to one of our colleagues who will use it for parenting.
[00:50:36] Dan: Yeah. Go for it. And also that can go too far. Don't let that substitute being in a mom's group or talking to, you know, going to a dad's mental health group, whatever. Going to the pub and having a chat with someone. You know, it's, it's it all in the balance. And we can be drawn into, um, a solitary.
[00:50:54] Dan: Experience where we're sort of plugged into the matrix. And I, I think some films do sort of give us a little bit of a clue about this, don't they? There's that film. There is a film about someone having a relationship from about 10 years ago with an ai, isn't there? Um, is it she or something? Her, something like that.
[00:51:11] Dan: I, and, and I think when you get to physical ais and robots, it's gonna get very interesting. Indeed. So Pier, it's been an, an, it was just an amazing episode, and I think Jon is, is the, is is our sort of, um, sort of really our guiding light on, on all this now.
[00:51:29] Pia: he's, our, December poster child. He is to finish the year.
[00:51:33] Dan: That's right. And, and released in January. But we did this, um, yeah, we did all this recording in, uh, just before the break. Um, but now we're starting the year, this lovely episode. So thank you Jon. That's it. It's about, so for 2026, definitely use ai and don't get too worried about the bigger picture, like I did at the start of this, this conversation.
[00:51:56] Dan: But, um, double down on, on being human centered and what might we might see as old school and that's connecting with other humans.
[00:52:04] Pia: it spelled S-K-O-O-L?
[00:52:08] Dan: I hadn't thought of that. Let's go with that. I obviously haven't done that on my bit of paper, but, um, but yes, if you want to go with that, Pierre, you're so trendy, you, you just go with that. Um, but on that note, that is it for this episode. We not be as supported by Spotify. Spotify helps any team to build, engagement and to drive performance. You can find show notes where you're listening. and@spotify.net. By the way, Pete, you've got one of these lovely bird sounds from Australia in the background, which I hope our listeners
[00:52:36] Pia: Oh, which is surprising cause they should be in bed.
[00:52:38] Dan: they should tuck themselves up in bed and, um, but no, I love it. You can see here the crickets and the, um, and the, and The
[00:52:45] Pia: they're out. The frogs will start soon.
[00:52:48] Dan: Um, but if you've enjoyed the show as the Australian Birds are doing, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We, not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:52:59] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.