Dr. Debi Silber: The Hidden Impact of Betrayal on Health and Autoimmunity

In this episode, I spoke to Dr. Debbie Silber, founder of the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute.

Dr. Silber is an expert in the field of betrayal and shares her personal journey of experiencing betrayal and how it led her to create a program that helps individuals heal and transform their lives after betrayal.

For the complete show notes and links visit inspiredliving.show/108

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Host

Julie Howton

What is Inspired Living with Autoimmunity?

The podcast for high achievers who want to stay sharp, focused and full of energy despite their diagnoses. Those who know there has got to be something better than simply accepting decline.

Hosted by Julie Howton, a National Board Certified Functional Medicine Health Coach who used to suffer from crippling Rheumatoid Arthritis until she learned the tools and strategies to take her power back from autoimmunity.

In this podcast, Julie brings you interviews with thought leaders in the Functional Health and Wellness space. You will get actionable recommendations to Take Your Power Back and catapult your health. No fluff, just concrete, useful steps to improve your health!

Welcome back to the Inspired
Living with Autoimmunity podcast.

I'm your host, Julie Michelson.

And today we're joined by Dr.

Debbie Silber, founder of the Post
Betrayal Transformation Institute,

otherwise known as the PBT Institute.

Dr.

Debbie is a holistic psychologist, a
health mindset and personal development

expert, and a two time number one
international bestselling author.

Her renowned podcast is from Betrayal to
Breakthrough, and she's also the founder

of National Forgiveness Day, which is
celebrated annually on September 1st.

In today's conversation, we are diving
into the impact that post betrayal

syndrome can have on our health and
on our lives, and how to know if

we haven't healed from a betrayal.

Also we're exploring the five stages
from betrayal to breakthrough.

And most importantly, just like it's
never too late to heal your autoimmune

symptoms, it's never too late to heal from
betrayal and create your new world view.

Debbie, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much.

Looking forward to our conversation.

As am I, this is such an amazing
topic and you really have just

pioneered progress in this field.

And, and I know for a fact, because
of what I do every day, that betrayal

and post betrayal syndrome has such a
huge impact on health and autoimmunity.

But first I would love for you to share
with listeners a bit of your journey.

How did you get to be focused
on this amazing topic that

is helping heal the world?

You know, I don't think anybody
says, well, first of all, thank

you and looking forward to this.

I don't think anybody says, you know,
I think I want to study braille like,

No.

you said it because you have to.

So I was in health and then
mindset and personal development.

I had a really painful betrayal from
my family thought I did everything

I needed to do to heal from that.

And then it happened a few years later.

This time it was my husband.

That was the deal breaker.

So got him out of the house and
looked at the two experiences and

realized, you know, I never really
took my own needs seriously and

boundaries were always getting crossed.

And, you know, if nothing
changes, nothing changes.

So here it was four kids, six dogs.

Business.

And I was like, you know,
I'm going back for a PhD.

I don't even know what came over me
to think that I would be able to do

that, but or pay for it or anything.

It was in a transpersonal psychology, the
psychology of transformation and human

potential, because I was changing so much.

I just was kind of
intrigued with the topic.

And he was too, wasn't
ready to look at that.

And then it was time to do a study.

So I studied betrayal, what holds
us back, what helps us heal and what

happens to us physically, mentally,
and emotionally when the people

closest to us lie, cheat and deceive.

Honestly, I was only trying to
get myself out of this pain.

That study led to three groundbreaking
discoveries, which changed my

health, my family, my work, my life.

Oh my goodness.

And I hope you're going to share
some of those discoveries with us.

Yeah, sure.

I'd love

to.

a feeling that betrayal was.

A different type of trauma.

I had been through death of a loved one.

I'd been through disease and I was like,
no betrayal feels different for me.

And originally I was studying post
traumatic growth, you know, which I

kind of look at as the upside of trauma,
how whatever the trauma is, right.

Leaves you with a new awareness,
perspective, insight that you didn't have.

Like maybe you lose someone you love
and you realize no life is short.

That kind of thing, but
this felt different.

I didn't want to assume it
was the same for everybody.

So I asked them if you've been through
other traumas besides betrayal,

does it feel different for you?

And unanimously they said, oh
my gosh, it's so different.

And it feels so different
because it feels so personal.

You know, the entire self is shattered.

Rejection, abandonment, belonging,
confidence, worthiness, trust.

You know, when you lose someone
you love, you grieve, you're

sad, you mourn the loss.

Life will never be the same.

You don't question the relationship.

You don't

Or yourself.

Yes.

Or your sanity, you know,
with betrayal you do.

So that betrayal is a
different type of trauma.

That was the first discovery.

So I gave it its own name, which healing
from it is now called post betrayal

transformation, the complete and total
rebuild of your life and yourself

after an experience with betrayal.

So that was the first discovery.

Awesome.

Amazing.

Which led to the PBT Institute.

Well, it

all making sense.

Eventually.

If the third one led to PBT, do you want
me to share what the second discovery was?

Sure.

So that was that was equally as exciting.

And what was discovered was there's a
collection of symptoms, physical, mental,

and emotional, so common to betrayal.

It's now known as post betrayal syndrome.

So we've had.

Tens of thousands of people take our
post betrayal syndrome quiz to see

to what extent they're struggling
and a few things about that.

The first thing is we've all
heard time heals all wounds.

Well, I have the proof that when it
comes to betrayal, that's not true.

There's a, a question on the
quiz that says, is there anything

else you'd like to share?

And people write things
like my betrayal happened.

40 years ago, and I can
still feel the hate.

My betrayal happened 10 years ago.

It feels like it happened yesterday.

So we know you cannot count on time.

You can't even count on a
new relationship to heal it.

The only thing that heals
it is healing it, you know,

deliberately and intentionally.

But every so often I pull the stats
from the quiz to see where people land.

I'm happy to share some
if that would serve.

I would love that.

And I know you generously there's,
there's going to be a link in the

show notes for users to take the quiz,
which is as such a, it's a wonderful

gift for people to be able to.

Just start to even think about
this as, Oh my gosh, is this

what's going on with my health?

well, that's the thing because the with
some of these stats I'm going to read,

people would attribute them to aging
or just to daily stress or whatever.

And no, they're not.

It's this is because of an unhealed
betrayal, even if it happened decades ago.

Okay.

So now imagine, I think we've had 95, 000.

And plus people take the quiz, men,
women, just about every country is

represented and listen to these numbers.

78 percent constantly
revisit their experience.

81 percent feel a loss of personal power.

80 percent are hypervigilant,
and that's exhausting.

94 percent deal with painful triggers.

The most common physical symptoms, 71
percent have low energy, 68 percent

have sleep issues, 63 percent have
extreme fatigue, your adrenals have

tanked, 47 percent have weight changes,
so in the beginning maybe they can't

hold food down, right, later on they're

And then they're

Emotionally eating.

45 percent have a digestive issue.

That could be anything.

Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis.

I mean, you name it.

The most common mental symptoms.

You know, I thought the digestive
system one was so interesting

too, because think about it.

What does the gut do?

It digests and processes And absorbs food.

Well, isn't a betrayal
difficult to absorb?

Digestive process.

tough to swallow.

Yeah, there you go.

The most common mental symptoms.

78 percent are overwhelmed.

70 percent walking around
in a state of disbelief.

68 percent can't focus.

64 percent are in shock.

62 percent can't concentrate.

So just take that.

You can't concentrate.

You can't sleep.

You've got an issue.

Now you have to show up for work.

You still have to raise your kids.

That's not even the emotional issues.

Emotionally, 88 percent
experience extreme sadness.

83 percent are very angry.

82 percent are hurt.

80 percent have anxiety.

79 percent are stressed.

Just a few more.

Here's why I wrote the book trust again.

84 percent have an inability to trust.

That would kill me.

67 percent prevent themselves from
forming deep relationships because

they were afraid of being hurt again.

82 percent find it hard to move forward.

90 percent want to move forward,
but they don't know how.

Wow.

Wow.

And as you were going through,
even just some of the physical.

Symptoms it's like, oh my God, you
know, the, I mean, if you're always in

fight or flight, then of course, you
know, digestion, autoimmunity, adrenal,

all, all the things it's this cascade.

And I'm, I'm imagining a lot of
people aren't even aware that,

like, this is what's going on.

As you mentioned, like,
we explain stuff away.

We can always make up some, oh,
this must be because of that.

Well, and you're so right.

And the reason why we don't assume
it's from betrayal because those

numbers I read and they were high.

You didn't hear me say one
thing 20 percent or 30%.

Right.

They're also Not necessarily
from a recent betrayal.

So this could be from a parent who did
something awful when you were a kid.

This could be from the
girlfriend or boyfriend who

broke your heart in high school.

So think about this.

That person may not know, care, remember.

They may not even be alive.

And here we are with these
symptoms today because of something

that happened way back then.

So that's why we don't attribute
these symptoms because we assume,

Well, it happened years ago.

It can't possibly be that.

Yes, it is.

The good news is you can
heal from all of it, which

It's never too late.

never

it.

So number three is you can heal.

Huh?

Yes.

And, and, you know, and remember
speaking of never too late.

So, and I want to get to the third
discovery, but as I shared with you right

before we hit record, I had just gotten
an email from a woman in her mid to late.

Eighties, we're talking about
a family betrayal that she

has carried for over 70 years.

And within a two week period
of doing specific, a specific

type of betrayal work.

She had, she had a gut issue for, for
70 plus years, healed the gut issues.

And she is in her mid to late eighties,
carrying it for 70 plus years.

Could you imagine just by doing this work?

I mean, that's how powerful it is.

So incredible.

I know I said to you, I got
goosebumps when you told me and

it's like, Oh my, what an incredible
gift for her, you know, really?

It just, it's, it is so incredible.

So let's talk about number three a little

Right.

So the third discovery, this for me was
the most exciting and what was discovered

was while we can stay stuck for years,
decades, a lifetime, and so many people

do, if we're going to fully heal and
by fully heal, I mean those symptoms

of post betrayal syndrome that I just
shared to that completely rebuilt.

Place of post betrayal transformation.

We're going to move through
five proven predictable stages.

And what's even more exciting
about that is we know what happens

physically, mentally, and emotionally
at every one of those stages.

And we know what's needed in order
to move from one stage to the next

healing is entirely predictable.

Happy to share the stages.

Yes, please.

You know I'm going to ask.

Yep.

And it's all we do
within the PBT Institute.

It's what all of our
coaches are certified in.

I'm going to give you a,
an abbreviated version.

So stage one is actually
before it happens.

And if you can imagine four legs of a
table, the four legs being physical,

mental, emotional, and spiritual, what
I saw with everybody, me too, was a

heavy lean on the physical and the
mental thinking and doing, and kind of

neglecting or ignoring the emotional
and the spiritual feeling and being.

Well, if the table only has two legs,
it's easy for that table to topple over.

That's us.

Stage two, shock, trauma, D day, discovery
day, the scariest of all of the stages.

And this is, this is where we get the
news that changes our lives forever.

And it's the breakdown of the body,
the mind, and the worldview right here.

We've ignited the stress response.

We're now headed for every
single stress related symptom,

illness, condition, disease.

Our mind is in a complete
state of chaos and overwhelm.

We cannot wrap our mind
around what we just learned.

This makes no sense.

And our worldview has just been shattered.

Our worldview is our mental model.

The rules that govern us, that
prevent chaos, don't go there.

Trust this person.

These are the rules.

And in one Earth shattering moment.

Every rule you've been abiding by and
holding to be real and true is no longer.

The bottom is bottomed out on you and
a new bottom hasn't been formed yet.

So this is terrifying, right?

I think about, yeah, exactly.

But think about it.

If the Excuse me, bottom
word to bottom out on you.

What would you do?

You grab hold of anything
or anyone you could in order

to stay safe and stay alive.

And that's stage three
survival instincts emerge.

It's the most practical
out of all of the stages.

If you can't help me get out of
my way, how do I survive this?

Who can I trust?

Where do I go?

How do I feed my kids?

It's practical.

Here's the trap though.

Stage three, by far, hands down, is
the most common place we get stuck.

I would, I would really take a guess
and say, it wouldn't even be much of a

guess to say, 90 percent of the people
you work with are in stage three.

Here's why.

Once you've figured out how to survive
your experience, because it feels so much

better than the shock and trauma of where
you just came from, you think it's good.

And because we don't know there's anywhere
else to go, we don't know there's a

stage four or stage five transformation
doesn't even begin until stage four.

But because we don't know
there's anywhere else to go.

Well, we.

Park here.

We plant roots here.

We're not supposed to,
but we don't know that.

Four things start to happen.

The first thing is you start getting
all these small self benefits.

You know, you get to be right.

We like being right, you know, you get
someone to believe you get your story.

We love our story.

You get sympathy from everyone
you tell your story to, right?

So we're getting these benefits
and we don't really feel

like we're getting much else.

So we plant deeper roots again.

We're not supposed to, but we
don't know that now because we're

here longer than we should be.

The mind goes to work.

It starts saying things like, you
know, maybe you're not that great.

Maybe you deserved it.

Maybe this, maybe that.

So we plant deeper roots.

Again, we're not supposed
to, but we don't know.

Now, because these are the thoughts
we're thinking, well, this is

the energy we're putting out.

Like energy attracts like energy.

So now we're attracting people and
circumstances and relationships.

Towards us to confirm this
is exactly where you belong.

This is where we'll join
that lame support group.

And we will actually sabotage our
healing because we now found our people.

This is where people will sabotage
their healing because they're

afraid of outgrowing their betrayer.

And I'm talking about the type of
betrayer who has no intention of

changing, but they're so afraid of
outgrowing them that they sabotage.

And then of course, more of the same,
that's the only thing you can guarantee.

Anyway, it gets worse, but I'll get you
out of here because it feels so bad,

don't want to be stuck in
stage three any longer.

right.

And this is where most people stay,
but because it's so bad, but we don't

know there's anywhere else to go.

We start nothing.

We start avoiding, we start distracting.

So right here, we start using food,
drugs, alcohol, work, TV, anything.

So think about it.

We do it for a day, a week.

A month now, it's a habit,
a year, 10 years, 20 years.

And I can see someone 20 years later and
say that emotional eating you're doing or

that numbing in front of the TV, whatever.

Do you think that has anything
to do with your portrayal?

And they would look at me like I'm crazy.

And they would say it
happened 20 years ago.

All they did was put themselves
in stage three and stay there.

Does that make sense?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

true to the majority of people you
see, I imagine they're in stage three.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Because yeah, all we're doing here,
we're suppressing and medicating

this, you know, all the symptoms that
show up and we're existing, you know,

someone's in stage three when you're
like, how's everything fine, you

know, it's like that person is just

I always say that's a,
that's a four letter F word.

Yeah, it's so true.

It's like you've been through
the worst of it already.

You owe it to yourself to
have that transformation.

Anyway, if you're willing, willingness
is a big word right here to let go of

the small self benefits, grieve more in
the last bunch of things you need to do.

You move to stage four, stage four is
finding and adjusting to a new normal.

So here's where you
acknowledge I can't undo.

What happened, but I control what I do
with it right there in that decision.

You turn down the stress response.

You're not healing just yet, but at least
you just stopped the massive damage that

was going on in stages two and stage
three stage four feels like if you've

ever moved, you know, if you've ever
moved to a new house office, condo,

whatever, all your stuff's not there.

It's not cozy yet, but you're
like, okay, we got this.

We got this, but think about it.

If you were to really move, you
wouldn't take everything with you.

You don't take those things that don't
represent the version of you that

you want to be in this new space.

And what I found was if your friends
weren't there for you, you don't

take them with you right here.

That lame support group.

You've outgrown them.

That betrayer who has no
intention of changing, you,

you don't take them with you.

So people ask me all the
time, like, what the heck?

I've had, I've had these
friends 10, 20, 30 years.

Is it me?

Yes, it is.

You're undergoing a transformation.

And if they don't rise.

They don't come.

You're making very
different decisions here.

Anyway, when you've settled into this
new mental space, you've made it cozy.

You've made it home.

You move into the fifth, most
beautiful stage, and this is

healing rebirth and a new worldview.

The body starts to heal,
self love, self care.

Eating well, exercise, stuff like that.

You didn't have the
bandwidth for that earlier.

Now you do.

The mind is healing.

You're making all kinds of new rules,
new boundaries based on your experience.

And you have a new world view
based on the road you just traveled

and the four legs of the table.

In the beginning, it was all
about the physical and the mental.

By this point, we're solidly
grounded because we're focused on

the emotional and the spiritual too.

Those are the five stages.

So amazing and powerful.

And I love how you're giving it all to us.

So I really encourage listeners
to just go through this.

episode like however
many times as you can.

Because there's so much here and I love
the, the most beautiful part of it for

me is what you guys are doing at the
PBT Institute is, is this, and it sounds

almost crazy that everybody has these,
like, you know, this group of symptoms

or, you know, nobody's coming in, like,
not fitting somewhere on that scale.

And so that is incredible to me.

Like I know we all think we're,
you know, our , our our, our

damage and our hurt is all.

So, you know, unique and it is,
but also you've created this system

that actually works no matter
what the betrayal was or like you

said, or how long ago it happened.

Well, that's it.

And it's so interesting because as
members come in and there's like takes two

seconds to know what stage someone's in.

I mean, and I'm sure even by me going
through the stages, everybody listening

to this knows, Oh my gosh, that's me.

They know what stage they're in.

So, but the beauty is everybody is in
there, you know, yes, the betrayals

may have been a little bit different.

The pain is the same.

The injustice.

is the same.

The, the, the, the feeling of being
shocked and blindsided is the same.

And when, you know, and
that tattoos itself on your

body, your mind, your heart.

And, and the idea is with, here's
a place where there's a predictable

proven roadmap to move through it
because, and even the type of support.

This type of support makes all
the difference because the wrong

support does more harm than good.

Like for example, we have a lot of
people coming into the PPT Institute

with therapy trauma that the most well
meaning therapists, but if they're

not highly skilled in betrayal, like
for example, if all you're doing is

unpacking your story and unpacking your
story and you feel heard and you feel

validated, you're also re traumatized
and recommitting to your story.

And And if anything glues you to stage
three, like crazy glue, it's going

over your story over and over and over
without a strategic plan to move forward.

I'm not saying you don't need to
unpack it, but in the beginning,

but there, there comes a place where
it's doing way more harm than good.

We have a lot of people who also come in
where they've been to couples counseling.

And the whole intention of that couples
counselor is only to get them okay.

So usually what happens is they'll
minimize, or maybe they don't understand

the magnitude of what betrayal does
to somebody, and they'll minimize it.

And then maybe they'll even say to the,
let's say betrayed, you know, if you

just were you communicated better or
whatever, blaming the, the And then the

betrayer now feels, you know, even less,
has less incentive to make the changes.

So, I mean, we even have programs
for the, for the betrayers as well.

And no one's giving them a free pass.

We're not shaming or blaming them,
but I see them at a group call.

They do.

And, and, and they're,
they're willing to do it too.

That's a very different type of
person that I'm, you know, then

the person who's just on to them.

Who's the what, what about, I'm
thinking of the listener who's like,

you know, oh my gosh, this symptom,
that symptom, this has to be me.

And I'm definitely because this,
you know, I'm in stage three,

Mm hmm.

but I don't know what the betrayal was,
but I don't, I don't have a conscious.

Awareness that that is the thing,
I'm guessing you help people

get there or it doesn't matter.

You know, honestly, no, sometimes
something could be suppressed,

repressed because it's deep trauma
and you were very young and your mind.

Is protecting you that's that's
one scenario right there.

And then it can also be something
that was, if you look at it.

Now, it didn't have to be traumatic
for you but the meaning you gave it.

Made it.

So for example, let's say here is I wrote
about this in from hardened to healed from

hard to yield is just for stage three,
like trust again, maps at all five stages,

but everyone was stuck in stage three.

So for more deals is just for that.

So I wrote this story about this boy.

Now imagine a little, little boy who
has some earth shattering news to

share with his mom and he runs into
the kitchen and she's on the phone.

So she goes like she shushes him.

Right at that very moment,
he could have made that mean.

I don't matter right there and the mind
will believe everything you tell it.

So now he goes through his day and someone
accidentally closes the door on him.

I don't matter.

He goes, you know, something
he'll he won't get picked.

for something.

I don't matter.

So, and then your mind looks
for confirming evidence.

So now he is gaining momentum with
this belief of, I don't matter.

And he's done it so many times.

Then the mind's like, Oh, I didn't realize
you want this playing all day long.

No worries.

You go about your business and
I'll just keep this going on

keep

as a subconscious program.

So here he is living the life.

With the underlying
belief of, I don't matter.

So with that belief, you can
imagine the choices he'll make, the

relationships he'll have, right?

Based on something as small
as his mom shushing him.

And so, but he doesn't need to
remember that that's where it started

in order to move out of stage three.

He doesn't have to, but it's helpful
because then he'll know if other people

do things, be careful about the meaning
that you give it, you know, so it may,

it may be worth his while to learn that,
but it's something as, as small as that.

And then we live a stage
three life because of that.

Wow.

And that's where this.

This, you know, experience of betrayal
becomes just as impactful, whether

it's big or small or yours or mine, you
know, it's, it's because as we know,

our perception creates our reality.

So,

Exactly.

can see where that series of, of
small things that somebody else.

May not have even noticed like
truly, you know, can then create

a whole different path for

exactly.

Exactly.

And then think about
even the self betrayal.

I mean, that's huge too, because
here we are believing these things.

Our mind is so powerful, so powerful.

It can have us believing we're
less than unworthy, undeserving,

unlovable, all this stuff.

And then our lives will prove that.

But then again, if we were the ones who
created that, then we're the only ones

who can create something different.

Betrayal has you questioning your
entire value and self worth and

all of it, because you're thinking,
I'm a good person, like, aren't I?

Maybe I'm

Right.

Maybe I'm not right.

If I was so good, right?

So it brings up all these questions
and I want to make sure every everyone

listening hears this too, because so
often they're so angry at themselves.

How did I not see?

How did I not know this
went on right under my nose?

And here's the thing.

How could you?

You don't know how to think like that.

And that's a good thing.

I love that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not wired that way.

I'm not.

Yeah.

And also that, that would
be its own set of problems.

If you were, you know, that hype, that's
that hyper vigilance before something

happens and then you're calling it in.

Exactly.

Sure.

And then, you know, and
that's the thing too.

So we're, we're, we're walking
around in this place of, you

know, we're, we're angry.

We didn't see, you know, we didn't see, we
didn't know, but how could we, the other,

the anger comes in at another point too.

It's when we realize that we've
been holding on to an unhealed

betrayal for decades, and it's
led to repeat betrayals and.

Every relationship is, is a different
face, but it's the same thing.

And then we realized that,
oh my gosh, I've been doing

this 10, 20, 30 plus years.

Usually they're angry then too.

However, without that awareness,
they would keep this going

for another 10, 20, 30 years.

You know?

and I was really angry when I started to
heal all my autoimmune symptoms because

for over a decade, I didn't believe
I could, I didn't know it was pot.

So that is part of, I think this
process of, of change when we

realized, Oh my gosh, this did
not have to be this way this long.

Like we didn't need to do that.

Yeah.

yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

So there's, yeah, there's a roadmap
now and there's really, and people

don't like hearing this either.

Now, healing is a choice.

It really is

I love it though.

It's not in a way of blame.

It's

no,

It is a choice.

And some people aren't
going to make the choice.

They don't want to.

They, they wrap themselves
up in that identity.

And, and that's That's their choice.

is.

It is.

And you notice.

yeah,

what it feels like is like this.

It's like imagine two best friends
and they're both 30 pounds overweight

and that's they know what it feels
like to be 30 pounds overweight.

And one day, one friend
says, I'm so done with this.

I'm just done.

I'm just done with this whole way.

And she is on a healthy eating journey
and Eating well and exercising and

living a whole different life loses
the 30 pounds and she is feeling great.

Now she's wearing clothes that she
wants to wear versus what fits,

you know, having more energy, just
feeling good in your own skin.

And she says to the other friend,
who's still 30 pounds overweight,

you come on, I'll help you.

It's so great over here.

And the other friend who still has the 30
pounds on, she's like, no, no, I'm fine.

I'm really fine.

I'm, I'm, I'm doing okay.

And the other friend is like,
I know what that feels like.

I get it, but this feels so much

over here.

Yeah.

so much better.

So as fine as you may be doing in
stage three, when we see members and

we see it every single day, move into
stage four and stage five, if you had a

taste of what stage four and stage five
feels like you wouldn't waste a day.

in stage three.

That's how much better it
feels in stages four and five.

I love it.

That's amazing.

You know, thinking, thinking
about the betrayal, I mean,

is there even such a thing?

Because again, back to the little
boy who was shushed, right?

It's perception.

It, is there really any adult
traveling this earth who hasn't

experienced some form of betrayal?

I mean, possibly, but it's very common.

And it has so many different forms.

We can even feel betrayed by a company.

Like there's something called, I
think it was when I was doing my

research, something called like
the love turns to hate principle.

And we would rather purchase a product
we know is bad for us, then purchase

a product that says, It's good for us.

And we find out it's not we do

exactly where I went there.

I, I experienced that with a product
that before I knew better for years,

I was using thinking or a line of
products that, that it was clean.

So these greenwashed products.

I think can do that one.

Then we, we find out it's
the same thing because I was

trying to make the good choice.

I thought they, they duped me.

They tricked me.

They

it.

You see?

Oh

right.

And that feeling we will turn on a company
like that so quickly where think about it.

You would have you could have
chosen a product that you

knew wasn't the healthiest.

But it's honest.

Dana, listen, you're taking your chance
if you use us, but we're just letting

you know, this is what we offer you.

Right.

Or at least don't even, you
know, or, or say nothing.

And you know, then it's
all on me, but yeah.

Yeah.

I love that you went there.

I, and one of these days I
will mention that company.

It's still, cause I just had a client
who is still using their products.

No.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Oh, so amazing.

Incredible.

And I have to bring up because I was
so excited when I, when I found out

you guys had made a national holiday.

we did.

We did.

Yeah.

September 1st is now a national.

Forgiveness Day, and it's so exciting.

So to kick it off this past
September, we had a three weeks, it

was a 21 day forgiveness journey.

And it was this live experience where the
idea, it was sort of a social experiment.

And the idea was to see, is it
possible to go Go from angry, bitter

and resentful to more forgiving and
free with intention and group support.

And I honestly had no idea what to expect.

And

would be,

I, I really, we had a tracker, and the
tracker went from like you were supposed

to write what you were gonna be working on
a more minimal, not even the big betrayal,

something, you know, a little less.

triggering and to see, are you
even willing to reflect on it?

Because some people were like, I'm not
even looking at that and reflect on it.

And then they would put a
check in the first column.

And then let's say they
did that for a few days.

Are you willing to release it?

Like now that you've looked at
it, are you willing to release it?

And then if so, put a
check in that column.

And then there was a third column.

Are you willing to release this person,
this experience from your life completely,

or rebuild something entirely new?

And I was shocked that in less than
two weeks, people moved all three

columns from from issues that had
been plaguing them for decades.

Amazing.

Which was the, the story you just
shared with us about the, the

woman in her eighties, right?

Was part of that, that group.

So in three weeks.

Really,

It was too.

Yeah.

And I'm finding three weeks.

I just made it three weeks.

Cause I was like, okay, three weeks to
form a habit, but it was in, it was in two

weeks with intention and group support.

And it was the, just everything
we talked about each day, the

stories, the activities, the,
the examples, the everything,

and, and the intention around it.

And the transformations that were
happening whether it was forgiving that,

that friend, that family member, that
partner a lot of self forgiveness went on.

It was, it was powerful,

so amazing.

So beautiful.

Is there anybody that this
work isn't appropriate for like

someone who has way too much
to gain from staying stuck.

I love that answer.

How did I know you would have an answer to

That, I mean, that person, they, they
just, there's way too much invested

in, you know, in their story and
their trauma and their everything.

They get so much from it and they
don't trust what they get from

letting that story go to a story
that, that's so much better.

Like, look at my own story.

Everybody I trusted betrayed me.

Everybody I felt close with betrayed me.

However what I did with.

You know, with it, my story so much
better like, and this just to close the

loop on my story, forgive, you know,
rebuilding is always a choice whether

you rebuild yourself and move on.

That's what I did with my family wasn't
an option to rebuild with them, or if

the situation lends itself if you're
willing if you want to you rebuild

something from the ground up entirely
new with the person who are you.

And that's what I did with my husband
so you know not long ago is to

transform totally different people.

We married each other again

Get out.

So, so think about it,
like, look at my story now.

And not even that.

So new relationship, right?

New family.

Like we're all completely built

Well, and, and clearly, I'm
assuming he's one of those people

you referred to earlier who was
willing to do the work to change.

would've, Yeah.

I never would've done this.

And not only willing to do the work with
me, willing to do the work with all of our

kids because he was the one who told them.

And if as you wake up and realize,
What you've lost, it's losing.

The only people that matter to you
and it was team, it really was.

And he he, he really earned
that back in the way that each

one of the kids needed it.

So it was a tremendous amount of

I, I'm like covered in goosebumps
because I'm thinking about for him, like

just how much more beautiful both of
your lives and your collective family

life is now because of all of that.

. Right?

Like, wow,

And people don't, you know,
they're so afraid of the death

and destruction of the old.

I'll tell you that is the
only way you birth the new.

And this is someone I've
been with since 1984.

So I get.

That, you know, when you have history
and I get all of that, but, but that,

that truly was the deal breaker.

And by me looking at it saying, okay, well
now it's about, it's about the kids and

it's about me and I'm just going to heal.

And I have no idea what will come of this,
but there was something in it where I just

remember like there was a moment that I
just remember thinking, I have no idea how

I'm going to heal from this, but if I do,
I'm taking everybody with me, you know,

it's

I love it.

Yeah.

injustice, the wrongness,
there's not a cell of my body

that was okay with betrayal.

Like, I can honestly, you know, say,
and any intuitive, whoever reads me,

I'm like, read me, what do you see?

I've never intentionally
hurt a human being.

So to just be able to do something really
good with something really painful,

it's like, you know, trauma well served.

It, it is.

I love that trauma well served.

It is, I mean, look, this is . This
is why I do what I'm doing.

Right.

Or it becomes our purpose.

But I, I just, I love because I'm
thinking, oh my gosh, otherwise,

You'd have continually been calling in
betrayal, like something had to change.

And of course, because you're you now
it's changing for, I don't even know, you

know, just many, many, many people, as
you said, all over the world too, it is

such a, such a beautiful gift you have
created out of your own personal work.

It's, you know, it, the whole idea
is even, even with our coaches, I

just certified right before our call.

I certified a coach in Dubai.

I mean, they're all over the world and
it's so, it's so great for them because

they've done the work themselves.

And when it comes to healing from
betrayal as qualified and credentialed.

As someone is for me, if they've
experienced it and they've moved

through all five stages, there is
no greater credential than that.

I get it.

I totally, this is what
I do day in and day out.

You know, I know I'm not a physician,
but I guess I can help you heal.

Yes,

I've been there.

I had a, I actually just had
a call with a woman in Jordan

Yeah.

sent me the most beautiful email and,
you know, of Oh, my God, just to talk

to somebody who understands who has
been where I am and who has healed.

And so it is, yeah, it is universal.

It's amazing.

And we all

I, I, I really feel like we're
obligated if we figured out something

because we've been through it.

How selfish is that to just
keep it to yourself, right?

I feel like that's our obligation
to share it just like you're doing.

Yeah.

I love it.

I love it.

Amazing.

So good.

And it's been so much fun to just sit from
the sidelines and observe over the years

how your contribution through all of this.

Has just continued to expand and,
and grow and, and reach more people.

So it's thank you for sharing
your, your journey and, and this

important work because I know anybody
listening to this needs to hear it.

And, and needs to really consider, you
know, oh my gosh, is this why I'm stuck?

Is this why I'm sick?

I don't know.

It's incredible.

So I always like to ask, which is
sometimes a difficult question for people.

What is one step that listeners
can take today to start to improve

their health or their life?

yeah, I would say just based on what
we talked about, find out what stage

you're in, and just move incrementally.

Towards the next stage.

It doesn't have to be a big step.

You're only moving in
one of two directions.

Further or closer to everything you want.

So, you know what stage you're in now.

What's, what's, what's, you
know, one little thing to move

you towards that next stage.

I love that.

And I love that you really, you know,
highlight the incrementally, right?

We tend to want to like, no, I'm going to
make this big leap and that doesn't work.

So I love it.

I love it.

Debbie, thank you so, so much for people
that are listening on the go and they're

not going to click on those show notes.

Where's the best place for them
to find out more about you.

Thanks so much.

Everything is at the PBT as in
Post Betrayal Transformation.

thePBTinstitute.com

I love it.

And guys, seriously, not only for
yourselves, share the link in the show

notes with other people, take that quiz
so that you really can get a better

sense of what's, what's going on.

And so can they, cause
it's, it's becomes a gift.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for everybody listening.

Remember you can get, get those show notes
and transcripts at inspiredliving.show.

I hope you enjoyed this episode as much
as I did, please listen to it again.

There's so much value, . I'll
see you next week.