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Product led growth (PLG) has been all the rage. But lately, a lot of things have happened in this space.
Airtable "ditched" PLG and Insight Partners published some interesting stats comparing PLG with non-PLG companies.
So today, we discussed PLG as another motion
Airtable "ditched" PLG and Insight Partners published some interesting stats comparing PLG with non-PLG companies.
So today, we discussed PLG as another motion
Creators & Guests
What is The Revenue Formula?
This podcast is about scaling tech startups.
Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Mikkel Plaehn, together they look at the full funnel.
With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.
If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.
[00:00:00] Toni: hey everyone. This is Toni Holbein. You are listening to The Revenue Formula. In today's episode, we're going to talk about why PLG is really just another motion and how you can fit it into your go to market.
[00:00:13] Enjoy
[00:00:19] Let's go
[00:00:19] Boyo.
[00:00:21] Mikkel: Boyo. It's your turn to do the intro today.
[00:00:26] So you know what? No, let's restart it. So you know what? Um, we had, um, so basically my parents in law, they took two out of our three kids away for four days. So it was the equivalent of being without kids because we just had the youngest who was not even a year. So Friday, we ended up drinking like three bottles of wine.
[00:00:50] And I say we.
[00:00:51] Toni: So this is Denmark, everyone.
[00:00:53] It's a, it's a normal
[00:00:54] Mikkel: It's a normal thing.
[00:00:55] Toni: It's called,
[00:00:56] it's called, it's called, uh, yeah.
[00:00:59] Mikkel: It's
[00:01:00] Toni: Little Friday.
[00:01:01] Mikkel: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just so nice. Really?
[00:01:03] Toni: three? I'm, I'm,
[00:01:06] so first of all, um, I can't do this anymore.
[00:01:09] Mikkel: No, no.
[00:01:10] Toni: And second of all, I really hate myself the next day by now. Like really,
[00:01:15] to a degree where like, I mean, how can you just be such a, Such a non grown up person.
[00:01:21] Yeah, yeah. Plus,
[00:01:22] Mikkel: also you have kids there and you're just lying dead and they're kind of shimmering around, wanna do stuff with you, and you're just like, I can't, I, I'm no function. Uh, but that was a good thing. We were also without kids the next day. Um, so it was just, and then you start going,
[00:01:36] It's Really quiet here. So we're back to the kids intro. We're back. The boys, as some people refer to, because our kids still live at home.
[00:01:48] Toni: I mean, we look older, but we're actually
[00:01:49] Mikkel: Yeah,
[00:01:50] we're constantly in motion, constantly in motion. And today we're going to talk about another motion. PLG. Smooth,
[00:01:58] smooth segue. Today we're going to talk a bit about PLG. I mean, we are not the, what do we call, uh, the grandfathers of PLG or anything. We, I mean, we are not the experts. Whoops.
[00:02:09] Toni: Are we the experts on anything?
[00:02:11] Mikkel: No, I don't know.
[00:02:11] I don't think so. But what we're good at is research
[00:02:15] Toni: Yeah.
[00:02:16] Mikkel: And formulating opinions based on
[00:02:17] research. And that's, that's what we're going to do today. So, um, we had a well researched, uh, guy as well on the show a while back, Jacco van der Kooij. And he actually talked about the risk of following trends, PLG potentially being one of them.
[00:02:34] You hear about one case that's, you know, a slam dunk, home run, whatever.
[00:02:39] And, um, we should also do that, and so today we're going to talk a bit about some of the things that's happening. Lately, because quite a few things have actually happened around PLG. So let's get into it. Yeah,
[00:02:52] Toni: PLG. and he was almost talking about it in like, um, Or you'd go to a conference. And there are five people on stage saying that PLG totally worked for them and now they're like a unicorn and you're like, Oh, this is, Oh, this is the recipe to become a unicorn.
[00:03:06] Right. Uh, first of all, that it's non data backed, it's not researched, it's not, you know,
[00:03:13] it,
[00:03:13] it's
[00:03:13] Mikkel: peer reviewed,
[00:03:14] Toni: it's just some random people that want to be on stage kind of, Jacco basically said, right? There's no. It's not like this, uh, process of science or medicine. There's not, no, no, such thing, right. It's basically, um, I would say it's the new world of, uh, snake oil, actually. And, and some of it is good by the way, some of the snake oil really works, but some of it really doesn't.
[00:03:36] Um,
[00:03:37] and, and you need to figure out, you know, what, what does work and what doesn't work, right. And I think, um, and I think what we want to talk to, you know, today about is.
[00:03:44] You know, what's the state of PLG today, actually? And there's maybe a little bit of a hint of glee in our voices here. Um, and we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, dive into this, uh, basically now, right? So what has happened? Let's just kind of do a little bit of a, you know, you know, going back in time, product led growth companies.
[00:04:05] So really product led growth, what does it actually mean? It means there's a free trial or signup button on your website. You can go in, you use it for a while. You put in your credit card after a while and then you. Use it and then you grow, right? Kind of that's, um, you know, what's the upside of it? Oh, you don't need a sales team.
[00:04:21] Mikkel: Yeah. Check. Big
[00:04:24] Toni: check. Um, and Hey, you know what? I can actually use some of those sales resources, put it into product instead, build a better product in the, in the process and, uh, get more customers in the process because I have a better product now, right? So it makes total sense. Let me just be clear about this makes total sense on the surface of this.
[00:04:42] and really what happens, um, basically. Before interest rates rose, before Putin invaded Ukraine, before that happened, PLG companies were growing a lot faster than non PLG companies. publicly traded one, you know, where, where that kind of information was accessible. However, after that... You know, infinite money splurge that we lived through.
[00:05:06] And now it's the zero interest rate period policy and quantitative easing. We're not going to, we're not going to explain. I could, I'm not
[00:05:17] Mikkel: money,
[00:05:17] Toni: I'm not going to printing
[00:05:19] money
[00:05:19] and buying stocks. So
[00:05:20] Mikkel: meaning the cost of money is cheaper and there's more money out
[00:05:24] Toni: Yeah. So that, that disappeared. and actually what happened now is that, non PLG companies.
[00:05:31] are growing faster and are valued higher. So this whole thing basically has been reversing. and, um, that tells us a little bit about, well, was this just a hype? Was it just a label out of a touch? And therefore people were like more bullish on this. What's behind that? And there's a couple of really interesting stats actually behind it.
[00:05:47] Um, so our friends from Inside Partners did a pretty nice piece of research. I'm not sure if it's
[00:05:53] Mikkel: think it was Openview. I think it was Openview, this one, to be fair. We'll put it in the show notes, but this was from, uh, Kyle Poyar, I'm pretty sure.
[00:06:00] Toni: Yes. So sales and marketing spending. Let's just start there because everyone is like, Oh, you know, you don't have PLG.
[00:06:08] well you, your, your sales team, all the commissions you need to pay and all that. All the, all the RevOps people you need to pay.
[00:06:16] Like that must be expensive. Um, and therefore PLG, uh, should be just be cheaper.
[00:06:22] The sales and marketing expenses should be cheaper. And if anything, you would expect that your product and R& D expenses are higher, right? That would actually make sense. Well, it turns out that's not true. It turns out that, non PLG companies, uh, have only 34 percent of the resources in sales and marketing versus PLG companies of 47% of their resources in sales and marketing.
[00:06:45] Now, isn't that mind blowing? Isn't that, isn't that basically kind of the whole promise? The whole promise here basically turned, turned upside down. It's like, you know what? Actually, all of that stuff that we got, all of you kind of, you know, super jazz up on. It's not true
[00:07:00] Mikkel: But think it's also, when you had the whole COVID time, you saw those, let's say, pure PLG just. blow up. Like completely. And then when you look today at what are the PLG household names out there, it's like we, you know, I even procured a little list. So you have Snowflake, that's PLG actually. You have Asana, DocuSign, Canva, Monday.
[00:07:28] Those companies, some of those offerings, they're not cheap, actually.
[00:07:32] Toni: so that's the other thing, right?
[00:07:33] I mean, it's really when you, and I, and I think Snowflake is the most terrible example to take. Yeah. It's a little bit like when any other sales, uh, SaaS platform is like, oh, we just don't gonna do it like Salesforce. It's like, no, you won't No. Uh, same with Snowflake. The,
[00:07:49] the thing with Snowflake is you can, I can go there today.
[00:07:52] I can, you know, put down my credit cards and I'm a customer and then we're going to build all kinds of services on top of this thing. And then, you know, two months from now, I'm going to look at my credit card bill,
[00:08:01] it's going to be like 5, 000 a month.
[00:08:03] And, you know, I didn't do anything, uh, but that's basically what happened.
[00:08:07] And you know what? I'm kind of okay with it because it's actually cheaper than doing it any other way. So I'm actually okay with this. And I think there's a reason why Snowflake, you know, blew up like a rocket,
[00:08:16] um, in a positive sense though.
[00:08:18] Um... Yeah, I don't know. Um,
[00:08:22] and I think it's hard to, you know, take this over.
[00:08:24] For example, um, you know, Asana, Docusign, all of those, those other players, you don't. Except to suddenly, you know, wake up to a bill of 5K MR, it's, that's not a thing for them. Right. Um, uh, but it, but it has been actually kind of for snowflake. Right. And the, I think what has been astonishing actually very recently, uh, when you look at the, the more recent, PLG examples, uh, so what has been, you know, floating around was this Airtable thing,
[00:08:53] Mikkel: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:54] Toni: basically one of the darlings of PLG.
[00:08:57] Yeah. Turned their backs on PLG, um, and everyone went crazy about it. Uh, the PLG side obviously was like, how can this be? You're going to die now. The non PLG side was like, Oh, finally you're seeing the light,
[00:09:10] you know? And,
[00:09:13] and the thing is, what did Airtable do? Well, you know, let's just say like this, they grew to 150 million in ARR with PLG.
[00:09:19] So you know what, you know, I'll shut up now. Uh, but also what they did now is they flipped, most of their focused enterprise.
[00:09:26] Mikkel: Yep.
[00:09:27] Toni: So why did they do that? One really, really big thing why they're doing this is because churn rates in the smaller segments suck. And guess what PLG is acquiring for them?
[00:09:38] Smaller segments. And guess what you need in order to sell to enterprise? It's not a free trial button. You need something else and don't get me wrong. So what is obviously super helpful and, you know, you and I had this, uh, with Falcon, you know, we had sometimes, customers or prospects where we're trying to sell into. And it was big enterprises and they had like multiple teams everywhere. And one of, one of the, the issues we had to fight against was like, well, half of our team already used the free Hootsuite license.
[00:10:10] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:10:11] Toni: They already know exactly how to operate this thing. The only thing we now need to do is we need to go to Hootsuite, who's also pitching us, and just say like, you know what? Upgrade those licenses and then roll it across. Those, those 50 percent of the 500 users, we don't even need to train and teach anything.
[00:10:27] They know everything already and they're pretty happy with it. Otherwise, they wouldn't use it. So the rest is really for the other ones, right? But to get from this... Grassroots to a wall to wall. Yeah, you need a salesperson, like for sure, right? And I think, Airtable is basically seeing the very, very same thing happening there.
[00:10:44] and yes, in many, many, uh, uh, enterprise organizations, people will be familiar with the name already because of the exposure, because of the PLG motion. And, uh, it will still take a salesperson to get it to a full blown deal for that organization.
[00:10:59] Mikkel: I have to admit, I've also been wondering whether they... Are formally killing the PLG motion because it just wouldn't make sense to me business wise you have a motion that's bringing in Some kind of revenue at a cadence that can coexist with a motion that targets enterprise So probably this could also be you know What we see in press versus what reality is might be a little bit different in this case
[00:11:24] Toni: tightens enterprise. So probably
[00:11:27] this is. It's like this typical thing is Atlassian. It's like, Ooh, this is a product led organization and a product led growth and everything. I mean, 60 percent of their, of their employees is salespeople. So let's just, you know, let's just not get this wrong that Atlassian is a PLG company.
[00:11:43] They're a sales company.
[00:11:44] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:11:45] Toni: But did they start out like this? I actually don't know. I guess not. Maybe they had like very large PLG motion going on and a similar thing with Slack. It's the same thing, right? Kind of, they grew through PLG.
[00:11:56] Mikkel: and funny story, like, if you look at Asana and Slack, the percentage of revenue coming from enterprise, north of
[00:12:02] Toni: 40. Yeah.
[00:12:03] Mikkel: North of 40%. So at some point they will have to add it to also sustain the growth as well.
[00:12:08] So let's, we've talked enough about Airtable for now,
[00:12:15] probably we could talk a bit more, but let's maybe move on because what this really means, I guess, is PLG is just.
[00:12:23] Toni: another motion.
[00:12:23] That's right. And, um, and as with any other motion, you need to assess whether or not that's good for you. and really, this is then part of your channel mix of a go to market mix and everything. And just as you're looking at, Ooh, should we be like, uh, should we do a content plan marketing or should we do a performance plan marketing, or should we do like an events plan marketing?
[00:12:44] Just as you're looking at these things, you know, outbound versus whatever, you need to look at PLG in the exact same way, right? does it make sense to do PLG for us? And I think, and this is from, from Leah Tharin, um, uh, you know, number one. You need to have an offering that is simple to understand. If you are out there trying to solve, I don't know, super complex business problems through super complex stuff, PLG probably doesn't work for you.
[00:13:16] It's probably not going to be the thing. So you see a lot of PLG companies successful with like scheduling or, uh, I don't know, Slack is super simple. Airtable kind of an Excel example is super simple, right? That works out. It's like, okay, I know exactly what it is. But actually kind of the, you know, for me to engage with this is actually, you know, through this channel instead of talking to salespeople.
[00:13:35] Totally get that. The next thing you need to achieve is it needs to be easy and simple to onboard.
[00:13:40] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:13:41] Toni: And onboard, adopt, kind of, people are making a big difference between all of
[00:13:45] Mikkel: moment. At the
[00:13:46] Toni: But at the end of the day, kind of, you need to have the ability that these folks can get to a, Oh, this is actually useful for me now.
[00:13:53] moment quickly, at some point and ideally by themselves, right? It's going to be product aided and stuff, but without a person behind it, right? Ideally. And then, and this is actually the most important bit, and I think everyone is forgetting about it. Everyone is neglecting it. It's actually not about, um, you know, the users that you get and monetizing the users you get. PLG is about driving more demand, and it's driving more demand through word of mouth. That's what this whole game is about. It has like, you know, in the 90s we would have called it Virality, or in the 2000s we would have called it Virality or something like this. That's actually the underlying idea of PLG.
[00:14:27] And what do you need for that? Well... The people that are using you, they need to be able to pitch it.
[00:14:33] If they cannot pitch it to anyone else, you will not unlock this viral loop of like, Oh, this is really cool. And, and, you know, having just a referral button in your, in your product and, you know, tracking this, it's not going to help if, if people are unable to articulate in five sentences, two sentences, one sentence, why this is great.
[00:14:54] I, you know, PLG likely is not going to work for you, right? Then it really only becomes a efficiency play on sales and marketing expenses or customer success expenses. And, you know, research now shows that ain't actually working out for you. Right. So kind of the, the realization needs to be, uh, easy to understand.
[00:15:12] So simple business problem, ideally, um, easy to onboard, easy to adapt, and then really, really important, easy to pitch, easy to generate word of mouth. If these three things aren't in place, it's going to be super difficult.
[00:15:23] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:15:24] Toni: No,
[00:15:25] Mikkel: makes sense.
[00:15:26] I think it's like, uh, I always see something called reverse ETL. I cannot explain it to anyone and I have to look up every time what it means. So if, if that's, you know, okay, let's do a PLG motion targeting marketing data, that's going to be really, really difficult. Um, I think the other, uh, piece we've talked about, uh, In the past, it's also, hey, you have different ACVs usually, and you did, um, basically did a shortcut mapping motions to ACVs, right?
[00:15:52] Do you see that being a factor as well for, you know, where, where PLG should, should be, or?
[00:15:57] Toni: I think it, um, this has to do with, uh, almost the,
[00:16:01] um, the onboarding and adoption piece. If, uh, something is a thousand euros a month, it's really difficult for you to kind of jump over this hurdle by yourself.
[00:16:11] Ideally, uh, ideally you don't want to get, you know, the CFO involved. Ideally, you want to avoid the six to eight people making a decision on this. Ideally, you want to have this just on a, on a credit card. Hey, it's like 10
[00:16:25] a month, 20 a month. Who cares? Let's just kind of go. Um, ideally you want to be on under that threshold to make it, you know, much simpler, right?
[00:16:33] And I think the other way around, if you think about your ACV spectrum and you're in the low end. There are only so many things, honestly, you can do in order to, you know, service and push out in that market. And you're basically limited, you know, if you're like below 3k ACV. I think it's going to be extremely difficult, if not clearly impossible, to do outbound, whatever your conversion rates are and whatever.
[00:16:56] but, uh, using PLG for those ACVs to convert people, I think that can work out, right?
[00:17:01] Mikkel: And I think we've also seen with some of the cases we talked about, they might have a low ACV on newbiz, but then their NDR, Net Dollar Retention, is pretty high because then they basically have an account pool.
[00:17:14] Toni: Yeah, and I think this is, um, this is sometimes complicating the math, correctly so, but it's complicating the math.
[00:17:21] So if you have something that's, and this is true for outbound, any other motion as well, by the way, Um, if you have an entry, um, ACV of 5k, but you're able within the first two years to get it to 15k,
[00:17:33] you know, you can probably run outbound on this.
[00:17:35] That probably works out.
[00:17:36] And it's the same thing for this here. What I really like though about PLG is once you start mixing it in intelligent ways with the rest of the motions that are going on, all right? So people now call it PLS, Product Led Sales. You know, you have product and sales in there. What's before the L, what's behind the L, it's unclear.
[00:17:54] Mikkel: Um,
[00:17:54] Toni: But what it basically means is people are, you know, jumping on your free trial.
[00:17:59] And then as they achieve some milestones or they get to aha moment, uh, some behavioral scoring, if you will, kind of from the old marketing days, or, if, you know, based on the account score that they stick out, so it's Coca Cola jumping on your free trial, you basically would deploy, based on that, you would deploy sales resources.
[00:18:16] Uh, so instead of doing spray and pray and outbound, you'd be like, you know, there's a product qualified lead space you're coming through and you then work them, right? So I think this is one thing that can work out because you're basically shortening the sales cycle, which is a massive productivity boost.
[00:18:31] Um, and you're probably going to have higher conversion rates because those people that got to that point, super educated
[00:18:36] at the point, right?
[00:18:37] So that means with PLS, you can probably operate in three to 6K range. Um, of, you know, where it's difficult to get someone to slide the credit card, but where the full on sales that is just too expensive.
[00:18:49] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:18:49] Toni: Yeah.
[00:18:50] I think the other thing that I've seen now a few times on companies like SEMrush and GitLab and a couple of others are doing this, they're basically, um, using the sales team only to work on, um, you know, existing customers. And there might be, you know, they might have an enterprise motion, whatever.
[00:19:07] but basically kind of how it works is, people sign up to their product. They slide the credit card for 5 or 50 a month, whatever the number
[00:19:13] Mikkel: is. And
[00:19:14] Toni: And they have thousands of those. And then the, the, the sales team, the only thing the sales team is allowed to do is to basically work as an account manager on existing customers, right?
[00:19:25] And, um,
[00:19:26] super
[00:19:27] efficient motion, right? Yes, you still have a big pool, uh, but it's a really educated pool. You already have their credit card. You know so much more about this thing. Uh, in case of SEMrush, you plugged it into their website. They see like, oh, wow, this is a pretty big website. I think they have money.
[00:19:41] Um,
[00:19:42] and then you go after them and convert them to something bigger, whatever, whatever that is. Obviously you need to be at the maturity level to be able to do this, but, um, uh, that is like extremely efficient, right? And if you, if you, so PLS is almost combining them, you know, while someone is still in the 30 days, uh, trial period, kind of, you you have a human touch and convert them, the other one is sequencing them.
[00:20:05] It's like, Hey. Get to this point first, and then we're going to attack you from, from the sales side, those kind of, uh, combos. I think that's pretty exciting, uh, and it's pretty, it's pretty smart to pull this off. And yes, it's pretty difficult also, right? So that, that, you know, that's, it's not easy to do this orchestration, right?
[00:20:22] Um, but I think that's, that gets me excited.
[00:20:24] Mikkel: Yeah, there's also the whole question of if you're doing a sales motion today and then adding PLG, that's gonna be... Pretty difficult and, you know, maybe let's, let's talk a bit about that in terms of the motion, right? Because if it's one you're considering, let's say you actually have ease of use, it's easy to refer and communicate what, what the software does.
[00:20:44] So you can do PLG and you want to consider this as a, as a motion, but you're doing a sales led motion today.
[00:20:52] Toni: Yes. Um, I think that's always like lots of head butting and, you know, you should hire Lara Turin, Leah Tharin to help you with, you know, organizing this because it's like,
[00:21:01] it's, it's a mess. Um,
[00:21:02] Mikkel: you're saying it's not just a quarterly project
[00:21:04] Toni: no, oh no,
[00:21:05] it's actually only two, it takes two weeks.
[00:21:07] It's, it's just a trial button actually. Um, no, but it's, uh, it can be a big, big mess, big pain point.
[00:21:13] You're going to piss off your sales team because you have suddenly pricing online. You know, Oh, I could have closed this for 1000 euros a month. And then they kind of converted to 199 and like, you will have all of those issues and navigating through this is super difficult actually. Uh, but I just thought of another cool way to combine PLG with, uh, Outbound
[00:21:31] Mikkel: actually.
[00:21:32] Toni: Um, so let's just say you, um, have difficulties finding the actual buyer persona in an organization. Let's just say that's your problem.
[00:21:43] and from a marketing perspective, it's really difficult to pinpoint them because maybe they have kind of different titles across different accounts in different regions.
[00:21:51] And it's like, it's a mess basically. Right. So it's really difficult to target them. So what you can do is you can, um, try and, you know, uh, offer this PLG thing to them and maybe they're successful or they're not successful, but what they have done there, they have, they have revealed themselves. It's like, it's you and and it doesn't matter whether you convert them the first cycle or not, but you have them now in the CRM, you can have, you can call and it's like, Hey, I want to talk to Greg. Greg doesn't work anymore. Well, who's the new Greg?
[00:22:22] Mikkel: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Toni: Jimmy. It's like, great.
[00:22:24] Um, and you don't need to go through the, so who's the, who's the owner of the
[00:22:27] problem and stuff. Um, and you can actually use this as an outbound, uh, uh, thing that you basically kind of deploy on an enriched uh, account pool because of PLG, right?
[00:22:38] So there's all kinds of cool tactics to go about this to, to, really leverage PLG in a direction where you, you stop seeing it as a religion and you start seeing it as a, yeah, it's, it's, it's one more of my tools in my toolbox. And it has a hammer and I like the hammer, but as a saw and a screwdriver as well.
[00:22:57] And, you know, you will need all of those three tools in order to build, I don't know, a table, a house,
[00:23:02] Mikkel: Yeah. But it's also like I saw a, I think this was also from, um, from OpenView and it's like, well, the companies that run salesled and PLG. 9 percent of the signups on PLG, they come from the salesled It's like, okay, yeah. So they, I mean, these things, they will blend together as you start doing them and benefiting from each other. Um, and I think that's the superpower. And again, like you said, this is, this is a motion. You need to evaluate it just like any other motion you would consider.
[00:23:30] Toni: Nice. Let's wrap it. So we talked about P L G being just another motion here. and uh, obviously there's some. trendiness to it or has been over the last couple of years, kind of collected some research saying that it's not that hot anymore. It's not that cool anymore.
[00:23:48] And really when it comes down to there, a couple of really simple ways to assess a PLG is for you
[00:23:52] the problem is of adoption is of, you know, referring someone, but then also a couple of other pieces you need to consider in order to make sure, is that motion working for me? And in many cases, it's not going to be so simple because PLG is kind of flexible. You can adapt it in many different ways to play into your existing motions and sometimes cannibalize also, which is why it's so difficult sometimes to go from, you know, sales led to product led, for example.
[00:24:18] but yeah, that's what we talked about today. Did I forget anything Mikkel?
[00:24:21] Mikkel: No, that's it. You hit it. So thanks so much for this episode.
[00:24:24] Toni: Mikkel. Thanks,
[00:24:26] Mikkel: Mikkel. Exit segway.
[00:24:27] Toni: everyone.
[00:24:28] Bye bye.