Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This is your go-to podcast for all things marketing, branding, and customer experience. We’re bringing you honest and fun conversations with bite-sized insights. Hosted by BrightSign’s CMO Brian Rowley and Head of Integrated Marketing Laura Smith, you’ll hear from industry pros, creatives, and innovators about what’s actually working in today’s evolving, digital-first world. No fluff — just real insights on how brands are connecting with audiences and driving growth. Tune in for fresh ideas, big thinking, and all the tips you need to take your marketing game to the next level.
I can be far more productive working from home. It's not about productivity. It's not about getting jobs done. Without the distractions of my regular job, which I view, which is leadership, I can get way more stuff done. The argument is not about productivity.
Steve Connelly:The argument is about culture.
Brian Rowley:Welcome to Prose + Comms: Engagement, Unplugged. I'm Brian Rowley.
Laura Smith:And I'm Laura Smith.
Brian Rowley:And a few months ago, Laura and I decided to do a podcast and we talked about Return to Office from the perspective of the two of us who actually work remotely. And we made the case for trust, flexibility, and being intentional about when teams actually need to be together. And Laura, as we all know, there's plenty of feedback in regards to this topic.
Laura Smith:Yep.
Brian Rowley:But there's another side actually of this conversation. What things might organizations lose when people aren't regularly in the same room, especially when it comes to culture and creativity energy? And at the end of that episode, we said we wanted someone to come on to share a little bit of a different perspective. And today, we're actually making good on that promise. We have someone who absolutely has a different opinion than we do, and that's okay.
Brian Rowley:That's the conversation that we wanna have.
Laura Smith:To say the least, he has a different opinion than ours. So today, we're gonna revisit a few things we said and whether they still hold up when someone wants to push back. So after recording that episode, Brian, was there anything that you kept thinking about or felt was unresolved as part of our conversation?
Brian Rowley:No. I wouldn't say that there was anything that was unresolved. What I would say is I think, you know, the the perception that you and I are not for people being in the office is is actually not a 100% true. I mean, I think what we have said is there's a balance, right, that exists. And I think, you know, some folks think that you're like, oh, we're all about being remote.
Brian Rowley:I don't know that that's true. So I I think this is going to be a good conversation because there are definite places where I think, you know, remote has a place, and I also think there's plenty of places where being in person is actually necessary and an important piece to getting things done. So so I don't think there was anything per se that was unresolved, but I do think the perspective that we had might have been a little bit misunderstood. From your perspective, do you think we actually gave enough weight to what gets lost when people aren't together?
Laura Smith:I don't know. I feel like we did talk about that, because I think the other side of that is when we're talking about how we get together, we get together with intention, and we have set times, we bring our team together, and I feel like that works well. So it's it's like we found a way to make it work, you know, we're I mean, we're fully remote because everyone's in different states and all around the country and globally, but, but we we we realized we needed to get together intentionally certain points of the year because we did see there were issues that could happen with the team that was starting to kind of crumble relationship wise. So I feel like we know what what got lost in that situation, so we've been intentional. But it's the balance, like you said, of sometimes together and other times you don't need to Well, be
Brian Rowley:as we had said, we promised we'd find someone to weigh in on this topic, and we found him. Our guest today has actually spent decades building teams, leading creative talent, and shaping agency culture. He founded his agency in 1999 and has grown into a global organization with teams in Boston, Dublin, and Vancouver. And along the way, he stayed deeply connected to the creative side of the business as both a leader and a copywriter. And that actually gives him a unique perspective on this conversation.
Brian Rowley:He's led teams through the pre remote era, the shift brought on by COVID, and now the push to and pull, quite honestly, between remote, hybrid, and getting people back together. So please welcome Steve Connelly, founder and president of Connolly Partners. Hey, Steve.
Steve Connelly:Hey, guys.
Brian Rowley:How are you?
Steve Connelly:You sure you're ready for this?
Brian Rowley:We are.
Laura Smith:You ready for this?
Brian Rowley:Are you ready?
Laura Smith:Our list our listeners are definitely gonna be ready. They're gonna be enticed by this one. Okay. We're gonna dive in, Steve. So let's start with the basics.
Laura Smith:What do you believe organizations lose when people aren't regularly together?
Steve Connelly:Well, the the three things I think your ability to learn, your ability to lead, and from a company perspective, your ability to build any kind of loyalty, think are the big things. There's certainly, I think most of the discussions that you have had, and most of the debates tend to center around the organic exchange, mental health, I think the ability of people to get out and experience life and exchanges with other people, both in professional and personal settings, tend to be the big things. But again, it's, I think for the individual to learn, for the individual to lead, and what degree of loyalty you can build to a company and not to a screen, to a group of people, to a way of looking at the world. Those are the things that I think are at the most risk when you are singularly remote. And even, you guys talk about it's okay to be in the office.
Steve Connelly:Hybrid is not a one day a month or three days a month, or it's a different discussion when you wanna make it a more regular three days a week, four days a week thing.
Brian Rowley:So Steve, do you think that and you say that, you know, when we ask the question sort of does it put it at risk? So I guess the question that I have when you talk about those three things, leading culture and learning, I mean, would you say that it's just more difficult in a remote environment? Or are you saying that it's it's an impossibility in that type of an environment.
Steve Connelly:No, I think it's more difficult, but I think, to be honest, and this is where it's hard to get into the conversations too, because it's like me telling my kids to eat broccoli. They don't want to. It doesn't taste good. I don't care how much cheese you cover it with, but it's good for you. This is the right thing for you to do professionally and personally.
Steve Connelly:That's what I passionately believe. And then obviously commensurate with that is it's good for a company. It's good for a group of people to feel like a tribe that is attacking a problem or a challenge on a client's behalf together. And you can do it in a way that can be a little bit spontaneous and that can get people around a table that can exchange opinions. Now, as you guys said, I work with people around the world on a regular basis.
Steve Connelly:So we were remote before remote was a thing. And I was building teams in Europe and exchanging with them daily this way. So it certainly can be done and it certainly there's value in it. But I think the inherent hesitation to go back to any form of the way it was before is the thing that is particularly frustrating for me.
Laura Smith:Do you think out of those three, like leadership, learning, and loyalty, is one of those harder to recruit recreate remotely? Like, do you feel like one of them plays just much better in the in person environment and remote, not so much? Because I think yeah, guess, yeah, out of those three, which which one is
Steve Connelly:the best? I'd say for loyalty is the biggest thing, but the most damaging thing is is learning. I don't think you learn in regularly scheduled engagements like on a FaceTime or on a Google Meet. So I think that for me, it's loyalty. It's getting people to understand the kind of company you belong to, what you believe, and seeing that stuff in action.
Steve Connelly:It's not the stupid bullshit mission, vision, values on the wall when you walk in. A company leads a certain way and they breathe a certain way and they believe certain things. You need to see those things in action and dialogue every day. That aside, the thing that's the most debilitating, I think, to an entire generation of workers is learning. I don't think people learn in a remote environment at nearly the pace that they would learn if they were in person.
Laura Smith:And that are you saying that because that's more about, like, learning, like peer to peer learning, like just conversations happening or just watching someone else do something that they didn't know how to do? Like, where
Steve Connelly:do you
Laura Smith:see that happening?
Steve Connelly:Well, yeah, I mean, you don't. It's asking questions. It's like, you know, it's fine for us as people that have been doing this for a while to simply say, Oh, pick up the phone and call somebody. That's fine. That's easy.
Steve Connelly:But when you're in your early 20s and you're in your mid 20s, it's harder to just to make that extra engagement of scheduling a time to talk to somebody one step above you, two steps above you. My obligation here is to constantly be moving through the agency and just see what people are doing and help where I can instigate a conversation where I can. And at the same time, wanna know, how's your personal life going? Where'd you go to school? How are the kids doing?
Steve Connelly:Hey, I have a soccer game at three today with the kids. I'm saying, Go see you, have a fun time. You'll get your work done. Trust my people get their work done. That's not the point.
Steve Connelly:The point is, am I teaching them? Am I preparing them? It's the same debate that is happening now around AI where companies, in the same way they're saving a whole bunch of money by going remote, and they're completely hood swanking everybody out there into thinking they're hey, love me, look at me listening. They're doing it for money, okay? The other thing is like the way you can actually give it more context is everybody wants AI to replace, all managers are being presented with the opportunity for AI to remove an entire level of person.
Steve Connelly:AI can do that job. I don't need to have any people do it. AI can do that job. Those jobs tend to be at the lower tier, the entry level tier. And if you replace them with AI tomorrow, who's gonna be your mid tier?
Steve Connelly:They're not gonna evolve, they're not gonna be at that next stage. I think that's another example of how we are doing a disservice to people in their professional development.
Brian Rowley:Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with you on that. The one thing that I would say though is when you look at individuals as an overall, a lot of the people that you mentioned in their 20s or early 20s, mid 20s, they may not know another environment other than a remote environment. They may have never had the opportunity to work in a fully, you know, organization in where everyone came into an office every day. So some of it is actually trying to convince them of that because they don't know any better.
Steve Connelly:Well, so I'll say this. Would you be okay with your kids going to school two days a week and learning from home the other three? Would you be okay of your concerts in the course of a year, you watch three of them on a screen and you go to one in person? It's like the argument is, to me, it's akin to that. It's like the in person, we make these arguments when they fit our own narratives.
Steve Connelly:But again, would you send your kids to school two days a week and work from home on a screen the other days? And you're gonna say, well, they're younger and they're not developed. I would say the same thing about people that work for me. They're developed as people, but they're not developed as professional and there's no difference. So hell, I'm telling you, man, I went to Rush last Monday at the Garden and I had no desire to watch it on a screen or engage within the screen.
Steve Connelly:There's something in the room that is culturally, personally beneficial to the experience. And I would not be able to engage with a screen or a person on a screen in that way.
Brian Rowley:Yeah, I the schooling is a little bit of a different conversation because I don't profess to be a teacher. So I obviously think that they could get more out of being in a classroom with someone who's trained in that area. I think in a remote work environment, you're still working with very trained individuals, I get what you're saying, but you're still working with trained individuals who can help you through that. Again, it might be a different conversation.
Steve Connelly:You're not trained. Who here is trained in teaching remotely? What classes have you taken in teaching people remotely?
Brian Rowley:Well, think there's a part of it. I'm not. But what I would say is, do know as an individual, what's important to help someone progress in their career. And so, you know, we've managed, I mean, I'm coming from it from also a very different perspective. I've been doing this for twenty five plus years and I haven't had an office that I've had to go to.
Brian Rowley:So for me it was I understood the importance personally, and I think some of this puts ownership on the individual, but I understood the importance as you being the president of Conley Partners that, hey, if I have an opportunity to get in front of you, I'm gonna do that. I also understood that there are people that are out there that I can learn from, and I need to proactively take the ownership on my side in order to be able to do that, and not wait for someone to come to me. Now again, not everybody thinks that way, right? So there are some people that are like, okay, that's not necessary. But that to me, I took that as my responsibility, and as a result of that, I was able to work remote because I knew, I made the discussions to say, hey, who's going to be in that meeting?
Brian Rowley:Okay, I want to make sure that I'm there. Or I want to be in that environment to make sure that I'm contributing to what the rest of the organization is trying to accomplish. I think a part of this is the selfish side of things, not only from the business perspective, but from the individual's perspective of always waiting for someone else to take the lead of where and how they progress. And I think quite honestly, of that ownership we need to put back on employees, like that's their responsibility. And I think whether you're remote or in person, I still think that ownership comes there.
Brian Rowley:And if you're really concerned about your career, I personally just don't think it matters. I think you'll take the initiatives or you should and someone should provide you that coaching.
Steve Connelly:Think you're assuming far more professional maturity than is pragmata.
Brian Rowley:Could could be. Very much could be.
Laura Smith:Like, obviously, we are, you know, seasoned in our careers, and we still need to learn. Right? Like, I still need to learn from people, people who work below me, beside me, above me, whatever. But we've have developed in our careers, whether, like Brian did, remotely. I, most of my career, 90% of it was in the office in the city, you know, and I was constantly on the road.
Laura Smith:But we have been trained, and we are at a level that we can then kind of figure this stuff out. I think what you're talking about or what it seems like is a lot of that more early career stage folks who don't have who haven't had that experience yet, and they need that. Is that a fair statement or do you think every level of your organization
Steve Connelly:I think I think every level of an organization needs it, but certainly in declining proportions based on your experience. I also think, again, I have to look at it differently than you guys do. I have to run a company. So my company competes against other companies on a regular basis for contracts for clients for brand engagements. The differentiation that I can build between companies and in pitch situations, an owner of a company, I believe this company functions better the more we're together.
Steve Connelly:And I can go to financial. Financially, we did much better when we were together, black and white. And so that I think is, again, a factor that never gets discussed. It's like all of the discussions tend to sense, because we live in a era of self interest, all of the discussions tend to focus on what's the best thing for the employee. And the question has to have equal weight as to what's the best thing for the company.
Steve Connelly:Company goes under, you guys all go get different jobs. I go get a different job. That's ever given the same consideration as I have to build differentiation, I have to build culture. We were named as having the best culture in the country twice by Adweek. I understand the value of culture.
Steve Connelly:I understand how it contributes not just to mental health, productivity, learning, and leading, but to the bottom line, man, we were much more successful as a company when we were together, black and white.
Laura Smith:I do think it's a bit of the creative space because I know all creative agencies are I mean, most of them are pretty much hybrid, if not fully back in the office, right?
Steve Connelly:I think creatives, think it's still think, so there's a pendulum and the pendulum swings between who has the power, the employee or the employer, and that's recession and strong economy, recessions. And we were certainly in a period in COVID where the employee had the power and a lot of great things came out of that, which is great. I mean, the rest of the world caught up to the stuff we were already doing that wasn't to the benefit of the employee. When the thing swings back the other way, that's when you get into increased discussions around what's better for the business. And some businesses benefit more from being in person than others.
Steve Connelly:I think ours does, but Fidelity is back five days a week. Think that is an interesting discussion to have. I don't know the metrics or the dynamics of how Fidelity works, but banks are going back five days a week. I was just with a client yesterday who mandates everyone's back five days a week because he fundamentally believed that all he was doing was giving log weekends to people. And I'm like, well, listen, that, okay, maybe some people, but your good people are still working.
Steve Connelly:But at the same time, you know, we can look currently right now at meetings that are booked, at obviously timesheets, conversations. And we definitely, a whole, not individuals, as a whole, less hours are spent working today than pre COVID in our office. That's irrecutable too.
Brian Rowley:That's actually a number that would surprise me because I would say, if I look at how hard people work now versus, and again, I think to your point before, there are definitely some anomalies in there, right? There are some people that don't and there are some that take advantage of it. But when you look at, you know, the amount of people in our organization that, you know, work, you know, technically we're a nine to five type company, right? Like whatever that means, right? But that's our stated hours.
Brian Rowley:But you look at people who are managing a global responsibility. So they're on, you know, at 6AM, 7AM, could be on up until 10:00 at night. I think people are more inclined in a remote environment to pick up work during their downtime. So perhaps after they eat dinner, they may log on, do some work, do some things. So I don't, I will tell you that we don't see people being in a position where they're working less.
Brian Rowley:In fact, would argue that people are working harder in this environment than they were pre COVID. That would just be
Steve Connelly:Well, don't know how many drinks you had in advance of this interview or what other anesthetics you might have taken.
Laura Smith:We drink after, Steve.
Steve Connelly:Absolutely on crack. If you're making that statement as absolute. It's the percentages of the percentage. For example, we went unlimited PTO before anyone else. We did it fifteen years ago.
Steve Connelly:Why? Because I trust my people. Unlimited PTO, I trust you. I statistically can show you evidence that 30% of the people don't take enough time and those are your best people. And 70% of the people take too much time.
Steve Connelly:It's just the percentages are not what you think they are. And that's because you are understandably myopic because you think that the way that you approach your job is the way the masses do and they don't.
Brian Rowley:No, don't think that's true. I think it's actually when you look at it and you look at the people involved, I don't think it's myopic at all. Understanding the what drives people. And I think that, you know, when I look at it, again, I gotta be honest with you. When I look at someone who says, I worked seventy hours this week, that doesn't necessarily make them a good employee.
Brian Rowley:That's just someone who's spent time. Right? Like I look at the quality of the work that's coming up. You can get that work done in thirty hours, be my guest. You can do that in front of the TV, have at it.
Brian Rowley:You can do that at home, be my guest. Or if you need to come into an office, that's all fine too. I'm not suggesting that every employee is like that, but I'm not suggesting also that it's small percentage of people. I've managed very large teams throughout my career, and in those teams, there are people that work really, really hard, and I would say work just as hard as I said, if not harder after COVID, for sure.
Steve Connelly:I love my people. We've created an environment where I am very confident and I trust them all to do their jobs. I don't hold them to specific timelines. I'm just saying that the pragmatic view of the way the world works is slightly different than what and I could, I should have brought data to show it. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter because you're talking again about the view of the employee and how they engage with their jobs.
Steve Connelly:And I'm talking about it from the mothership's captain seats, where I'm responsible for a thing, and I'm responsible for a whole bunch of people.
Brian Rowley:Yeah, I mean,
Steve Connelly:I've been in that role,
Brian Rowley:I get it. No, I mean, I've had that role as well, right? So, I mean, if I look at it as a whole, I have responsibility for organizations and the company as well. So it's not, I don't think that is, I mean, I think we can get there two different ways.
Steve Connelly:Thing is, the one quick thing, Laura, I just wanna make this clear. I'm in favor of hybrid, by the way.
Brian Rowley:No, I get that.
Steve Connelly:Yeah. Totally into creating an environment where there's flexibility for people. Where I am is, I think we could make a little bit more of an effort to be together as people. I mean, we do three days a week, I'd love to go a little bit more, seems to work the way I'm doing it right now. But I think there are opportunities to improve the performance of your company and to improve the professional development of your people with a little bit more of an office.
Laura Smith:I was gonna say one thing. I do think it comes down to people and how they manage. Because like I think what Just going on the time of like, you know, like does people work more or less? From my perspective, it's like I don't I I I would say, I probably I don't know if I work less because I if I'm always in that person when I went in the office, I still brought my computer home and worked at night. Like, that's what I did because I had to do that.
Laura Smith:Right? And that was in advertising and in, marketing agencies where, like, I had clients and I had to get stuff done. So I'd still come home and work. Now, do the same thing. If I have to shut off and go get my son from school, come back on, I'm gonna go back on later.
Laura Smith:That's me. Not everyone does that. So I do agree that, like, there are people who are nine to fivers, whether they're physically in an office or physically at home, they're not gonna work a minute over that
Steve Connelly:But again, you guys are focusing on a topic I agree with. I can be far more productive working from home. It's not about productivity. It's not about getting jobs done. Without the distractions of people, without the distractions of my regular job, which I view, which is leadership, without the distractions of that, I can get way more stuff done.
Steve Connelly:The argument is not about productivity. The argument is about culture. And again, loyalty, leading, learning. That's not the same as being more productive. I will be way more productive working at home than at any point in the day here at the office.
Steve Connelly:But there's a balance. And part of your obligation as an employee is to contribute to the larger whole in addition to doing your tasks.
Brian Rowley:I don't disagree with that. I definitely agree with that. But so on a previous episode that sort of sparked this one, specifically about Return to Office, Laura had actually a pretty strong reaction on actually one of the most common arguments, which is actually collaboration. So we're actually gonna play a clip of that, and we want actually wanna hear what you think as a result of it. So why don't we roll that clip?
Laura Smith:Going back to the collaboration piece though, Brian, like, I think I'm gonna call BS on that being like the reason when companies say this or leaders say that. Like, really don't I think you can collaborate virtually. I think some collaboration in person may be more effective. But it really comes down to about the, you know, maybe the real estate they have they need to use, or the control they wanna, you know, take back with having to like see people in their seats and feeling like they're, you know, okay, I'm paying people to do their jobs, I'm watching them do their jobs. I think it's like and it's the trust factor.
Laura Smith:Like, I just I don't think people are bringing people together for collaboration. I think they're doing it for these other reasons, which is kinda where it makes me feel a little icky because you shouldn't need to do that if you had trust in your employees or, you know, whatever. Obviously, I guess if you're paying rent in a building, you want people in there.
Steve Connelly:Are those your other reasons? Paying rent in the building and feeling like you're getting a return on the investment? That's the only one?
Laura Smith:Well, no. It was but the paying rent, like people have to they have to put butts in seat if you have the rent. If you have a contract, you need to be able to justify that rent. The other piece was about, like, do they not trust the employee because if they can't see them doing their job, they feel better because they're in more control because they can see them doing their jobs.
Steve Connelly:You and I You and I don't know that I can have people in the office behind the screen. For all I know, they could be playing Wizards of War. I don't know what they're doing. That's not the point. I think that I think that the lazy, superficial argument that's made to return to the office is exactly what you just said.
Steve Connelly:I happen to agree with you. I just don't think that's the issue. I think paying rent is definitely part of it. But put that conversation over to the side for a minute. I think it's much more the deeper reasons for being in the office are personal, are organic, are developmental and are about culture.
Steve Connelly:They're not about productivity. Again, I can be far more productive at home than I am here, but I cannot impact this place culturally. I cannot teach. I cannot lead. I cannot learn at the same rate at home as I can.
Steve Connelly:And there's multiple parts to all of our jobs. Please don't, nobody should be evaluated on one criteria on their job. And productivity is one piece. If you're singularly focused on productivity, you're a freelancer or you're a contract player. I pay you to do a job.
Steve Connelly:I pay you to paint my house. Paint my house, go paint another house. That's productivity. I'm not in that business. I have to run a group, a company and create a culture that's different.
Steve Connelly:And I think that the argument that people make about spontaneity and creativity in the offices, I think that's the laziest argument possible for returning to the office. Maybe it holds water, maybe it doesn't. But those things can happen remotely.
Laura Smith:It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because interesting, Steve, because you obviously run a creative marketing agency, ad agency. But, like, do you feel because we had conversations just recently about brainstorms.
Laura Smith:Right? And like, I've heard people, know, say things like, oh, it's brainstorms. Crazy to be together to do that. And then we had Will Burns on, as you know very well, where he was talking about Ideal Cycle and how like their teams never get together physically. So do you think that like it's more justified in that like more creative advertising world to get people together because there is more?
Steve Connelly:Will and I Collaborate. Will and I are very, very close and in complete total disagreement on that issue. Sure. You know? I think, see, Will deals with ideas that go brilliant.
Steve Connelly:The fundamental delivery is senior, senior talented, uber creative people who have earned that position in their life and a client gets access to those people through Will's vehicle. They are fundamentally different than agencies. These are high priced, high talent, high experienced pros. They want to just be productive, but that's different than what I'm talking about. So, you know, I think spontaneity is a big part of it.
Steve Connelly:Think So again, Ideascola is putting creative people together. I can go to this table and I can put an influencer specialist, a media specialist, an analytics specialist, a digital specialist, a creative person, two brand people, and an anthropologist. I can put them here, I can walk into the room and I'm going to say, Go, and walk up. Now, you can structure that kind of meeting digitally, but they happen far more organically in different places other than conference rooms. Saw the best idea that we created as an agency three or four years ago.
Steve Connelly:I saw it happen by accident in a conversation at a studio table. I just walked by and I heard it happen. Best idea we've had would not have happened if we were not in the office.
Brian Rowley:One teeny example. You think it matters to the customer?
Steve Connelly:The client? Well, ultimately, I don't think it matters to them because I don't think they know what they're missing until they don't get it. I think the caliber of the idea can come from freelance mentality, productivity myth, or it can come from the in office environment. I think clients though appreciate culture more than we give them credit. I think they want to know what their companies stand for.
Steve Connelly:What is your mission? What is your soul? What is your value system? How do you operate? How do you function?
Steve Connelly:I do think they appreciate those things and I think they can't get a feel for them unless they come in and they meet these larger teams. I think they want to exchange with them. I think you become closer. I think retention of clients is probably much higher when you have a chance to engage with a team in person rather than digitally. Yeah.
Steve Connelly:And I think up to that point, ultimately you get better when you feel a closer tie to your agency or to your client, I think you deliver work that is beyond self interest.
Laura Smith:I'd agree with that. I'd agree with that because again, I've been on that side and I do think even like now that we have agencies that work with us, it's like when you know that team feels like there's a tight bond with that team, they feel like they've got like the same rhythm, we feel that matters because then it's like, okay, I'm not just talking to four people on a call and they're all in different pages and different wai wavelengths. I do feel like, you know, whatever that culture is, and as long as it's permeating through the team, you can feel that on the other side. And I know even just running teams in an agency, it's like you wanna have those relationships be strong because you have to do so much together. And it's so team oriented, and it's always this collaboration.
Laura Smith:So when clients see that, and Brian, you are our client at one point, so like you'd see that, and that does foster strong relationships. Now, how people get close, I mean, they're remote or physically together, you know, that that may vary, but I I think the culture can still kind of carry through even if someone's remote, I think. I know I know you feel strong about the culture, but I do think that I've been in an organization where I was remote, and it was the culture, like, really was strong. So but that was, you know, going through COVID and have to come out of COVID. I'm not saying every company can do that.
Laura Smith:Wouldn't say ours is the the best at it, you know, culturally. Like, I think we try, but we are all distributed. I think when we get together for our annual sales meeting and everyone's together, it is like, we are no, not a minute lost or at a big trade show in Spain, not a minute lost. It feels like we have like a really strong
Steve Connelly:think there's a difference between familiarity and culture. I think familiarity, it goes only so deep. And I think culture is much deeper. And I think it's much easier for people to change jobs today if your exchange with other people is singularly through a screen on your desk. If somebody offers you $5,000 to change jobs, and the only thing that changes are the pictures on my screen, I think they're more inclined to leave.
Steve Connelly:We generally have a much higher retention ratio than other agencies. And I like to think, maybe I'm deluding myself, I like to think it's a large part because of the people that you enjoy going to battle with every day when you go try to solve challenges for a client.
Brian Rowley:You know, it's interesting. I was just actually talking to someone this morning who is a space planner and we were talking about this conversation and they were talking about, you know, people are definitely getting back into the offices, but the office looks 100% different than it ever used to. And so, they were talking about, you're seeing where companies are actually putting cafes in. They're actually creating game rooms. They're actually making sure that there's a gym that's there because they had said the numbers, and I apologize, I don't have the stat of where this came from, but from a retention perspective of employees, an employee would be willing to actually take less money if they felt like they were in an environment that was a little more in tuned to the things that were important to them.
Brian Rowley:Now again, I don't have a basis to be able to tell you the stats associated with it, but this is someone that I know that's a space planner that was working on a project and was actually saying, you know, here's a government facility and they had shown a space diagram of like cubicles one after another all lined up, right? And then they were showing me, here's a tech forward company, and you know, it was all open spaces, all hoteling, all of this, just because to your point, the piece of it wasn't necessarily about productivity, it was more about creating an environment that was a culture that people were excited to come to versus one that they felt they had to come to. And I so I think those are things that are also part of this conversation that are actually really interesting.
Steve Connelly:Well, our business, that shift happened fifteen years ago. You know, we've never had offices here. We do not sit by departments. We've always had, I mean, my office, as I told you, is built around a bar and I don't drink. Why?
Steve Connelly:Because that's where great conversations happen around those places. So in our business, your space planner is probably converting a lot of those cubicle kind of offices, but it actually goes back fifteen years with ping pong tables. I mean, that's another thing is that a lot of company owners who don't think it through, think culture is simply offering free beer, snacks, and a ping pong table, and then they just wipe their hands of it and walk away. Most people that run companies have no idea what culture is. They just don't even think about it.
Steve Connelly:They don't think about the value of organic exchange and how do you instigate organic exchange that's better for the client and better for them. They don't think about things that way.
Brian Rowley:You think that matters based on the size of the I company though, think your fortune five hundreds might be less concerned, but I think companies smaller that organizations, I think that is a big focus for them. Absolutely.
Steve Connelly:I think it's well, I think it's, my point is the superficial things that are done to the workplace to get a checkbox to say, See, I care about culture, I offer you free food, everything, and a ping pong table and a pool table. It's like, you're a lazy ass business owner if that's all the only checkbox you wanna hit to say, I care about culture. It's like, screw you, no you don't. You're too lazy to think about how to create engagement points. That's culture.
Laura Smith:I think that that was like old school big agency vibe though. It's like, you know, I mean, I worked at like Arnold and that was what it was. It was like you had games and you had beer and you had bagels and you had all this other stuff that I felt like it felt like as an employee, and I was super close to people I work with because we work 90,000 a week, but in an office, but it felt like that's what they felt like they needed to give you in return for all of that time and that made the culture fit.
Steve Connelly:Well, did.
Laura Smith:You know? How would
Steve Connelly:you describe the culture when you were at Arnold's on a scale of one to 10?
Laura Smith:Yeah, I'd probably say it was like a seven, six, seven.
Steve Connelly:I mean, I'm very familiar with Arnold's, big organization, but I think as brilliant as creatively, they were superficial in their understanding of people. Well,
Brian Rowley:think because I think culture is a bigger conversation. I think part of culture is leaders that lead by example. That's a big piece to it. I think it's understanding and getting a good feel for what people within the organization expect and setting the right expectations. It doesn't mean you give them everything they want, but at the same time you set the right expectations associated with it.
Brian Rowley:I think compensation is a part of good culture, but it's again only a piece to that. And I also think that as you look at where culture has gone, I think you get to your point, a lot of people that check boxes to say, hey, I have a great culture, I have a mission statement, I have a vision, I have a core value section, right? And they're like, okay, we've got a great culture. Well, no you don't. You have the basics around what you mean, but ask your employees.
Brian Rowley:Like, you know, survey them, find out what's going on. I get it, sometimes we over survey our employees and we get the same feedback all the time. But culture's a bigger conversation for a lot of people. To your point, it's not just one or two things. There's a lot of pieces to it.
Brian Rowley:And you have to understand your employees in order to get it right.
Steve Connelly:And you have to have a leader and leaders that agree on a value system. And once you agree on a value system, like I totally laughed my ass off at the mission vision values and the exercise. It's like, they're all the same. Everybody has the same stupid ass mission on the wall. It's like, what do you believe?
Steve Connelly:Why do you come? What is your purpose? And what is it? Is it pragmatic? Is it realistic?
Steve Connelly:Is it organic? You need leaders to establish that or a leader. And that's hard, man. And a lot of leaders don't want to do it. They just want to go back to being productive.
Steve Connelly:And I get it by the way, but it's not culture, it's productivity.
Brian Rowley:Yep.
Laura Smith:Yep. Okay. We're gonna have to one more clip from the last episode. This is something Brian said. I'm not sure if you remember Brian.
Laura Smith:Brian made the argument that being able to physically see someone doesn't necessarily tell you whether they're doing a good job. So Joey, let's play that one.
Brian Rowley:I used to work with someone who used to say, I the reason that they wanted their employees to be back in the office was because they had somewhat of a level of security that the person was doing their job if they saw them walk past and they could look out their office door and see them sitting at a desk. And I was like, know what, here's the reality of it. If you have a bad employee, whether they're sitting in front of you or they're working remote, they're a
Steve Connelly:bad employee.
Brian Rowley:Doesn't matter. It's just it's just it might be a little more challenging to to be able to prove that they are. But if you know that and that's your gut instinct, then I promise you, your gut is probably telling you the truth. That's not the right employee. And again, it's not for everyone.
Brian Rowley:There are people who work remote, who will tell you, I don't like working remotely. It's just not set up for them.
Steve Connelly:Well, the end of the world is about to occur because I actually agree with a teeny part of what Brian says. However, you made the comment though is that a leader's job is to walk around the office and see who's working. That's not a leader's job. That's a lazy ass leader. A leader's what it is.
Steve Connelly:No, no, that's what they were saying. That person was saying that I like to walk around and see people. It's like, you know what, you're full of shit. It's like, your job is to take them out to coffee, is to talk to them, is to grab them and say, Hey, let's go look at this thing. Your job is to engage with people, not to check to see if they're at their fricking cubicle.
Steve Connelly:And that's a lazy leader that's going around with a checkbox. That's a timesheet mentality, punch in, punch out. I don't have stomach for that. I don't have time for that. And anybody that makes that argument for going to work every day in office is doing a disservice to my correct argument.
Steve Connelly:The argument is engaging with people. I cannot grab somebody and say, Hey, let's go around the corner and get a cup of coffee. I want to talk about something. Hey, what are you doing? That could be better.
Steve Connelly:Or, Hey, oh my God, I go around with my work and I'm like, Is that any good? And I can't do that. That's different than, it's not that.
Brian Rowley:Would say
Steve Connelly:Find that guy, I'll yell at him next.
Brian Rowley:I would say the area that we do agree on, I do think early career employees, new employees to an organization, I think the remote work environment has made it incredibly challenging for them. I would say that I think that's actually something that any organization should be taking into consideration. How do you manage employees who are starting with a business or an organization? What works for them? At the end of the day, to your point about leadership and culture, our goal as leaders is to set people up for success.
Brian Rowley:And in some of those environments where we are fully remote, it is more challenging to onboard new employees and make that a positive experience. Laura, you and I have seen this a lot. Right? Like, I mean, we get it done, but at the end of the day, having being in an office, I think, is an area where I think that is actually more beneficial for that specific role.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I would agree with that. I mean, I think I think it's hard to come to a new company remotely. I mean, that's like hard to onboard, hard to get to know people. I mean, it just takes time, longer amounts of time than it would if you were in person.
Laura Smith:And I and I agree, like, my early stage of my career, like, I would have changed a thing. I loved going to the office. That was my social life. That was where, you know, some of my closest friends who came to my wedding were from earlier careers, you know. It's like that it had a huge impact on me.
Laura Smith:So like I do see both sides and I will say that like if I This point in my life, personally, it's just like where I am with like raising a child and all this stuff, this works for me. But there was a point in my life where I could never imagine have done this. Yeah. Because I would I'm just I love people. I like to talk all day long and I don't have anyone around me.
Laura Smith:So it it does make it more difficult, but I think at the early stage, would highly suggest they be in person because that's how they're gonna figure their their selves out.
Steve Connelly:Just of your instances, I would say, because the conversation understandably is what's best for Laura? What's best for you, for your career? What's best for Brian? Do you guys ever stop and say, what's best for Steve? What's best for the company?
Steve Connelly:What's best for maintaining profitability so that benefits, so that we can One of the biggest laments of my career is that I went 18 taking every employee and all of their families to Disney World for three days and two nights. And that's a big check. I went eighteen years doing that and I have not been able to do it for six, seven years since because the company does not allow me that performance to do that. And people don't think about that. They don't think about what's the reason for that?
Steve Connelly:How can we make more money? Because we have established a culture where if we make money, Steve gives it back in fun ways. And I don't think enough employees sit there and say, independent of what's best for me, what's best for the company, they don't care. It's again, self interest is an all time.
Brian Rowley:I would agree with that. I think that's a part of good leadership though, because I will tell you we have those conversations every single day with our team. We talk about the impacts of the decisions that they make, not only on themselves, because yes, they're a part of it, but also, you know, I mean, if you look at it, right, you know, when people used to provide bonuses specifically on corporate performance, right, everyone was really offended by that, which is why they moved towards the whole, well, a portion of it is your individual contribution, a portion of it is the corporate contribution, right? At the end of the day, if the company is not successful as an individual, we're not doing the jobs that we need to do, like to a 100%. Now, I get it, There are parts to that, right, where I could be working a million hours a day and the company still may not perform because x y z people over here are not doing everything.
Brian Rowley:But at the end of the day, we all very much, especially in our organization, are very very focused on company performance, not just individual performance, because that is what makes us successful. So I agree with you that there's not enough people who do think that way. But I think there are many that do because it's not just about the individual role that people are responsible for.
Steve Connelly:I think some people do. I think it's in a minority and I do not think enough people think about the connection between company performance and company culture.
Laura Smith:Yeah. Yeah. I would agree
Steve Connelly:with that.
Brian Rowley:I would agree.
Laura Smith:I would agree. And I I do agree that people a lot of people don't care about the employer. Like, they're just there to do their jobs, and they're just there to work, crank up work, feel like they're productive, feel like they've accomplished something, and then they're like, whatever. You know, they'll say, I'll get my paycheck and that's it. So I definitely think that is, and it's interesting, I I would say with like, generationally, the differences in that Huge.
Laura Smith:Huge. Huge.
Steve Connelly:Yeah. But we've never felt that here. It's like, I'm very spoiled by And I do think it's a cultural benefit. I'm very spoiled. I think our people give a shit.
Steve Connelly:I think our people do think about it. I think that there's a larger purpose to coming into work at our place. And I think for me to create that value system in a person, which I think benefits them as a human, they got to come in and they got to be exposed to it on a very regular basis. Agreed.
Laura Smith:Yep. Okay. We're gonna we're gonna go in this hot seat because we've been talking this whole time. We cannot skip the hot seat, Steve, and it's not even that hot. So before we let you go, we're gonna have you enter the hot seat.
Steve Connelly:Joey has too much time on his hands.
Laura Smith:Like he said, he gets paid to do this. So we're gonna play overhyped or worth the hype. Okay? So we're gonna spit out ideas, and assumptions that come up, regarding remote versus office debate. So you just give us a gut reaction like like it, hate it, agree, don't agree, but you don't have to expound on it any more than that.
Laura Smith:So I'll start. So is it overhyped or is it worth the hype? In person brainstorming.
Brian Rowley:Worth the hype. Water cooler conversations.
Steve Connelly:Worth the hype.
Laura Smith:Scheduled collaboration days.
Steve Connelly:Not worth overhyped.
Brian Rowley:Office perks. Overhyped.
Laura Smith:Five day in office weeks.
Brian Rowley:Overhyped. Unlimited flexibility.
Steve Connelly:Worth the hype.
Laura Smith:Zoom happy hours.
Steve Connelly:Bullshit.
Brian Rowley:Work from anywhere.
Steve Connelly:That's a trick question. Sometimes, sure. But I think it's probably worth the hype.
Laura Smith:Okay, team off sites.
Steve Connelly:Worth the hype.
Laura Smith:Okay. That wasn't that bad, right?
Steve Connelly:What the hell is that? That's not a hot seat at all. Still a piece of raw bacon sitting in the pan. I got nothing going on.
Laura Smith:I mean, we're afraid to get too crazy with you. We don't know where you'd go.
Steve Connelly:No, I don't either.
Brian Rowley:I would say this, Steve. I appreciate the conversation. I think in the worlds that we live in today, I don't think there's enough conversations about people who have differing opinions. And I think at the end of the day, we can all learn or even take a different perspective on topics that potentially are not the way that we view things. So I do appreciate the conversation.
Brian Rowley:I do appreciate your time. Obviously you have done an amazing job at Connolly Partners. You've been around for a long time. It sounds like you've got a great culture that's working there. So I would just say thank you.
Brian Rowley:We really do appreciate you being a part of the show.
Steve Connelly:Well, thank you for the therapy exercise. You can send me a bill.
Laura Smith:Yes. Well, you make sure all your employees listen to this too, by the way.
Steve Connelly:Please That's our target not, no.
Laura Smith:Yes, thank you, Steve.
Steve Connelly:Thank you, guys.
Brian Rowley:Laura, I would say, I mean, there's a lot there. I mean, I think to be honest with you, not all of it is really any different than I think what we have said before. I think we have some differing opinions, but I would say that we're also probably a little bit more aligned. I do believe that culture is an important aspect to any organization. I do think that, you know, as we look at the way in which you look for your company to be successful, having a good strong culture is a really important part to it.
Brian Rowley:Steve did mention some really good points there for us to, and other companies to consider when they're making this probably more challenging conversation, right? Of do you pull people back in the office? Do you keep them remote? Do you employ a hybrid mentality? What's at risk?
Brian Rowley:You know, what are the benefits and what are the pros and cons associated with all of them for your organization? Because I also believe this isn't a one size fits all conversation. I do think it varies a lot by organization.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I would just say I would love to live via fly in the wall at Connolly. I mean, kinda did work in that building before, but I really didn't pay attention to them. Because it does sound like it's a it has a really it has a thing that maybe other companies don't. And it would just be kind of interesting to see how that come how that comes to life because, yeah, a lot of that it was all interesting perspective.
Laura Smith:It's done we always can agree to disagree sometimes. Yeah. And that's great thing. So I do appreciate his honesty and transparency about it because it's it's good for everyone to hear all sides.
Brian Rowley:I would agree. So thanks for listening and most importantly, if you like what you heard today, be sure to follow us. And if you wanna hear more from Steve Connelly, you can find him on linkedin.