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Brains, Black Holes, and Beyond (B Cubed) is a collaborative project between The Daily Princetonian and Princeton Insights. The show releases 3 episodes monthly: one longer episode as part of the Insights partnership, and two shorter episodes independently created by the 'Prince.' This show is produced by Senna Aldoubosh '25 under the 147th Board of the 'Prince.' Insights producers are Crystal Lee, Addie Minerva, and Thiago Tarraf Varella. This show is a reimagined version of the show formerly produced as Princeton Insights: The Highlights under the 145th Board of the 'Prince.'
Please direct pitches and questions to podcast@dailyprincetonian.com, and any corrections to corrections@dailyprincetonian.com.
Senna Aldoubosh: Hi everyone, welcome to brains black holes and beyond a collaboration podcast between Princeton insights newsletter and the daily Princetonian. from the Prince, my name is Senna Aldoubosh.
Simone Kirkevold: And my name is Simone Kirkevold. Today we have two seniors on our show. Hannah Faughnan from EEB and Imani Mulrain from chemistry. Welcome to the show.
Hannah Faughnan: Hey
Imani Mulrain: Hey
SK: Today's episode is a special episode for two reasons. One, it's our senior thesis episode and to the podcast section of the prints is collaborating with news on this episode. So let's dive in and learn more about Hannah and Imani's theses. So what is your senior thesis about And were there any professors or advisors who are particularly noteworthy or helpful during this process?
HF: This is Hannah speaking. My thesis is about like the molecular mechanisms responsible for the evolution of social behavior in dogs. So basically, if we go like way, way back before we have like wolves and dogs as like two separate species, as we know them today, we have this like ancestral Wolf is what I've been calling it, that we know like ethno historically that some of them started interacting with humans, whether that was just because of proximity, or because they were like, purposefully interacting with each other. But like, some of them were just like, more friendly, I like to joke and say they were like, more Girly Pop. And, like, that is what essentially led to this like difference in behavior between like wolves and dogs. So like, if you put like treats in a puzzle, and you put dogs in a room with it, they'll solve it. Same thing with wolves. Now, if you do the same thing, but put a human in the room, like dogs do not care about the tree anymore. Like they just want to interact with people, meanwhile, like wolves would like still do that. And so I for my thesis specifically was looking at the specific gene that is associated with these differences in behavior and like what proteins are present there. And the differences between like this genetic state, and the proteins that are there to try and understand like what's happening specifically on the DNA that's causing this like, huge difference, it's responsible for this like, pretty big, evolutionary event. Also, my thesis was advised by Bridget Vaughn hole in the von holdt group, dirty Tandon was like a huge grad student, like she helped me so much on this project, and dealt with so many emails and so much like foolishness on my end. And then I think like other professors in the department are like Katherine Sullivan and current attorney to like, are just amazing individuals. And like, if anyone has a chance to interact with them on any level ever do it? Because they're great.
IM: Yeah, that's a really tough act to follow, I believe. And I think most people are gonna think that a chemistry thesis is really boring. And I second that fully, which is why I am a certificate student in the SML, department statistics and machine learning. So the majority of my thesis has a big machine learning component to it. So my thesis is about analyzing metabolism with NMR spectroscopy. So like, what is the worst thing about going into the ER, it's the wait time? And like, Why does it take so long, it's because a lot of the diagnostic testing is a very multifaceted, challenging problem and takes a long time, not only for the machines to collect that data, but also for the providers, the clinical professionals to read that data. And so because delayed diagnosis can be like a really important thing that can lead to like death and healthcare people and get the help that they need. A lot of people have thought of different ways and emerging tools to fix the problems or improve diagnoses. So one biochemical approach it's emerging is called metabolic phenotyping. And that basically involves collecting data from living beings, whether that be from like bio fluids, like sweat, or urine or blood serum, whatever. And then you put it under different technologies, and the ones that are important for us our mass spec, and nuclear magnetic resonance NMR. You know, those useless things that we talked about in gen chem, and then those technologies are going to analyze that data. They're going to spit them out in patterns that we can't understand as humans, but machine learning can do that for us. And they'll recognize those patterns and be able to match them to other databases and be like, Oh, you're pregnant, or, Hey, you might have breast cancer. So, at our NMR facility here at Princeton, my advisor is Vaughn Peltzer. He runs the NMR facility. What we do here is we're working on a large scale horse. Yeah, horse horses dataset. And basically, OCD or osteochondritis dissecans is a debilitating disease that not only affects horses, it affects young children too. It's in the knees. And so a lot of horses were that are racing, horses just form horses are affected by this. And so we have a dataset of a lot of horses that have been bred in, out in Pennsylvania. And what the NMR facility at Princeton is doing is it's running all the blood serum that's been collected from these horses, in our NMR machine, and then we're using machine learning to try to see if we can identify patterns. And why is this helpful? Why do we care? Because it's really paving the way forward to be better at diagnosing this debilitating disease early on. Because the earlier that you can diagnose diseases, whether it be OCD, or whether it be cancer, it's a better chances of recovery for either the animal or the person. Why are we doing it horses, there's a lot of HIPAA violations and stuff. So you know, being able to use the data set what horses we can easily see their names, and see all of their different metabolic issues. It's just an easier time for everyone didn't have to go to like an IRB report, Review Board. So for my thesis, specifically, I'm analyzing a dataset that's already been analyzed. But in our NMR facility, we use a really, really old system Simka, I doubt anybody knows what that programming software is. And we actually have to pay for the license. So with my thesis, I'm arguing that this is something that can be done simply and for free, with better and easier to understand a more user friendly software. So there's an online platform called metabo. Analyst. But I'm also writing this in MATLAB, and I'm also doing it are. So that's what my thesis was, was comparing the analysis across those three software.
SA: That's awesome. You guys both have really cool topics and kind of to segue into the next question, like what inspired your guys's topics like what was what was the burning passion that brought about these theses?
HF: For me, I actually started in chemistry research here at Princeton. So I did gen chem, I had never done chemistry in high school, like I'm a low income student, I came from one of the worst high schools in the state of Florida. And I had never taken a chemistry class. And then I came in as like mole pre med, which was a lot to do. And so I like had Michael Hecht for, like, come to a one as we all have for a million years, because he's 1,000,001 years old. And like, I was really into his research and like proteomics, like, you know, creating proteins from like nothing and seeing if they still work is proteins. Like, that's insane. And so, I worked in his lab summer of 2020 online, and did a lot of like literature research on the topic and thinking of like how to design an experiment in like proteomics. And by the time I got around to entering Eb, which was his own journey, but I can talk about at some other time, is, like, I still kind of wanted to do that. And I wanted to see if I could come up with some type of project where I could work in like the HECHT lab in the chem department and still be EEb, which is the thing that's like possible, like, you can do that. But I walked up to my advisor, and I said, I really like proteins, just like, okay, um, anyways,grad student in the lab had, like, just started thinking of this project looking at proteins. And so it all just kind of came together in that way that like, you know, I'm not creating proteins in the lab, but I am like, counting and analyzing them. And I think like, understanding like the mechanisms like I feel like, every time I'm in an EB class, and we're talking about evolution, just in general, and like, the bigger scale, and I can give so many different examples, I'm like, Okay, but what about like, smaller? Like, how, like, what is like, the most basic thing or like this, like begins, I think, is a really interesting question. And it's different from like, regular, like mole work, and that there is this like, larger context, ultimately, like, I'm not trying to figure out what proteins are doing for the sake of like, finding out what proteins are doing. It's like, we can see this happen. Like if my if this gene that my thesis is written about is deleted in humans, their behavior is completely different, right? Like, this is something that like, you can physically see and like also, like mess with. And so I think like, that was like the thing that drew me into it.
IM: I feel like that's a lot more put together and less convoluted story than mine. Now you got it. So I came in CBE pre med, and I was a CBE major for literally one class period. And after the first day of CBE 235 of going over the syllabus, I dropped out. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to do more or chem. But my interest always was more from medical standpoint, I knew that whatever senior thesis research I did, was that I was in the mold department of the chem department. I wanted to be medically focused. And the actual Funny thing is the main reason why I dropped out of the engineering track was because I was afraid of coding. I was supposed to take coastal 26 In my freshman spring, and I was like, Oh my gosh, I've never coded before, like I need to drop this track. And lo and behold being a pre med, everyone in their mother has to take a stats course and every Stats course here has a coding component. And when I took SML to one, my freshman spring, I actually enjoyed it. Oh, wait, hold on, hold on, we're doing something. And so fast forward. And I am a fake CBE major as a chem major with an SSL cert. And so I actually didn't join my lab group until December of 2022. I just really wasn't able to find my groove of what do I want to do that's medically focused, has a huge stats and coding component because that's what really, like, if there was a data analyst like major here, I would choose that. But then it's also okay to be in the chemistry department. And so I went to Hawaii lecture at the time Professor Susan Vander cam and she let me know about this project work that's going on. She's amazing.
HF: We love her.
IM: We love her. And she let me know this project was going I was like, wow, this is perfect. And because the data was already analyzed for me, I Loki really didn't have to do anything chemistry related. Like my thesis has been completely done from my bed on my laptop, while all the other chemistry majors are running back and forth from Frick. So I think the interest wasn't really chemistry specific. It was just my own interest of how can I try to combine everything that I like, about what I'm doing, and this is what came out of it.
HF: So we both came in as more pre med. And then we're not eternal. But now okay, still pretty much just Kimbo. Okay, I came into mol and then considered chem, but I wouldn't take math 104
IM: Yeah. You're strong. Because I came in as an engineer like it was I already had to do it. Yeah, it was done. It was already done. Didn't take 201 though.
HF: Oh, period.
SK: That's awesome. Guys, that is so great to hear. Sounds like both of your topics. Like it really just, it was meant to the and we've kind of touched on this a little bit. But what did your research look like? And how long did it take for you to conduct your research? Yeah, um, so the EB department is kind of unique in that, like, they start, like, thinking about their theses in junior fall. So like you join your lab group in your junior fall, and you kind of need to have some idea of a topic, it doesn't have to be like the whole thing, right? It's just like, I like proteins. And like, that was pretty much my thing, you know, to figure out like, what group you might fit in, and then figure out a project from there. And you start doing like the literature research and stuff for your spring JP. And so I've pretty much spent like a year and a half on this project in total. So it was like the background research and like budget proposal applying for funding and things like that, like Junior spring, and then the summer was data collection. So I was in the lab, I didn't get the chance to do that much because I am immunocompromised and I felt ill was a whole thing. But thankfully, like my lab is really collaborative. If I was sick and not able to come into lab, like there was always someone there to like help with the data collection. Like in some places, if you're not there, like and your stuff is going to go bad, it's just gonna go bad, like, no one's gonna be there to help you with it or whatever. So like, thankfully, I was never on my own with that kind of thing. And then pretty much all of senior year was just like data analysis. So I actually use these two bio analytical packages and like Amani, I don't know if you've heard of these or not, because you do you do bioanalytics somewhat. Okay. Okay. So I used max two, which is involved in like chip seek, like protein campaign. Because that's what I did, like, ultimately was the method was, I don't need to get into that right now, actually, but I use like, Mac's to undefined to like, analyze, because I had basically like, data for the entire genome of all six, like samples that came from six different dogs in my thesis, which is like, a lot. Like, if I downloaded those files on my computer, my computer would be bricked, because it's that much data, like you cannot, under any circumstances, like, do it on your own. Like, it's, it's this whole thing. And I like don't have a super strong coding background. Like I also took SML to one. And that was it, right? Like I like and it was online like I've left, okay, are sure, like I can say I know it but I didn't really like know any coding languages. So it was a lot of like learning and trying things and having like, really, really stupid bugs and having this and then to my grad student and having to have her help me and like, just constant like that. And then writing kind of happened along the way. I tried to like, at least open the document for like 20 minutes a week. You know, like, even if it's just like a sentence, just like do it. And so it was like the majority of it was pretty much written by the time like the spring, mid spring, let's say mid spring rolled around. And yeah, I think it from there like EEB we're required to do a poster. We're also required to do like a defense like verbal oral, like conversation kind of where they ask us questions and stuff. And so like preparing those things was like the majority of the spring. And now we're here, period.
IM: Again, I think my story's a lot more less traditional. So the chemistry department in the fall like there is a forgetting the NIT colloquium, where basically, they have different researchers in the chemistry department and some, like cross mole Chem, come and present what work is going on in their lab. And then in the spring, we join a group, I reached out to one of my professors who taught my chem through five course, Professor schools, my junior fall, and I worked in his lab until the end of senior fall. So like I worked in his lab for over a year, and it just really didn't click for me, I didn't find that I felt seen in the group that I fit in, in the group. I mean, the chemistry department in itself is already like, not a very diverse department. I'm one of two black seniors. Last year, the class of 2022, there were three, I think, right now in the class 24, there's only one black chemistry student. So being the only black person in my lab group, I definitely did not feel comfortable. I didn't feel like I was being engaged in the work. And while I feel like there was a lot of quote, unquote, freedom to do what I wanted, I also feel there was a lot of unrealistic expectations put on me. So me and that lab group did not work out, which is why I didn't join this fun in this group until December, which is kind of like crazy, because by then, most lab groups are like, yeah, no, we are full, we have no seniors. But with a swan has been really great. He's given me a lot of latitude to do what I want, but also give me a lot of guidance. I think that's what I needed. The most was like, guidance, because the only lab experience that I have is a physics 1234, my freshman fall, because all of my lab experience that I would have gotten, like multiple 14 Origo was online. And so the only like chemistry, quote, unquote, lab experience I have was core lab, my junior fall. But that's like, nobody knew what was happening in core lab. Nobody knew what was happening in core lab. So being thrust into senior work in a lab, and I have to mix things. And I'm working when I was actually working with proteins actually. tubulin micro tubulin. Yeah. Like I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm coming to this lab for like, three hours, six hours a week. And I still don't know what I'm doing. With like this current work that I'm doing, I can confidently go and speak and defend it. So we also have a defense. But I've been sick, actually, for the past, like three weeks I've been in the hospital. So I actually got an extension on my thesis and all of that. So it's just been much a better time for me mentally and emotionally being in this new group. And in terms of what the research looked like, I feel like most of the work that I put in from December to like February, was just learning the background information on this topic, it's such a wide topic, you can get really lost down various corners if you don't try to really pull it in. So I think most of my confusion came from what does my advisor want me to do? I'm already working with a dataset that's been analyzed, and not only theses already at Princeton, but like other independent work, what does he want to see from me. And I think just from going and meet with him multiple times, like I have a clear or had a clear idea of what I need to put in my thesis. So like comparing my PCA results and my pls results, and these different spectrums across these different software compared to the previous analyses that have already been done. So that's really what my research was, was just going into the literature and learning what has been done, what has not been done. And what I think the thing that the chemists department likes emphasize a lot is What gap are you addressing, not only in the field of chemistry, but also in the larger picture of things. So like, for me, this is something that most people don't when they do metabolic phenotyping like research, they don't focus on NMR. Just because feasibility wise, and NMR machine is more expensive to upkeep it costs more certifications to work on. And hospitals just don't have the funds to have those huge machines. But in using NMR, they are non invasive, so you can get a lot more out of it. And a lot more analysis on the live species that you put under the machine. And in terms of the bigger picture thing. It's a great addition to research what's going on how to improve medical diagnosis. So I've had a lot of fun time with this thesis.
SA: That's so cool. Oh my goodness. So to kind of follow up on that, like, what did you guys discover? And like what were your guys's biggest takeaways from your topic? Yeah, I think some things I really want to emphasize and thank you for bringing up like your experience like finding a fit in the lab, because I think like a lot of people when they're thinking about like their theses, like especially in STEM, but I think also in the humanities, like it's a lot of focus on one topic. And like I'm a firm believer that like a great advisor and like a math topic is a way better time than like a topic you're really interested in and an advisor that like you just don't get along with or like just doesn't work well with you. Right Like, I think that's something that's so important. Um, so I think like in terms of that process, like my lab, when I joined, it was all but one person were women in the lab, and like, I have colorful hair, and like piercings and stuff like that, and like, my advisor has like, full sleeves of tattoos and like blue hair. And like, she wore ripped jeans when being interviewed by Anderson Cooper for 60 minutes, like, right, like, like, it's just a place that like, even visually, it's like, this makes sense for me. And like, I have friends who like were in the chemistry department, and like, they were the only woman in their lab group, and there were no gloves that were their size, all of the things that they needed to do their experiments were on like the top shelf, and they literally just couldn't reach it, because it's like all these like tall men. And like, you know, it's just like, it's really small things like that are like, you know, I know in the quad right now, there are some floors that like don't even have women's bathrooms, and stuff like that. And so like, you know, it can really impact your experience, if you're spending 12 hours a day in lab, right, and you have to go somewhere else to go to the bathroom or something like that, or like, you spend your whole day and you never see anyone that looks like you or like how's your lived experiences, I think that plays like a really big role in like the overall experience, not just socially but also in like, the actual work that you're doing. Yeah, but on the topic of like my thesis. So I actually found I was looking for like activating proteins. So proteins that are usually found around like enhancer regions have gene. So basically, these proteins are here. And then they either recruit other proteins, or they play some function, generally speaking, that like creates like, makes that gene like be expressed more. And in my thesis, I actually did not find like differences in this like activation between like the more social and less social like genotype at that specific gene. However, when you have like the less social genotype, the words like the gene is longer, there actually are more proteins in this like longer version of it. So like when this gene is longer, and it's like less social, there's more proteins there. And it actually like loops around on itself, like the DNA forms like a little loop de loop. And the idea from this is that these activating proteins are on this loop. And then it like doubles back over the gene. And it's like indirectly activating it. In this like less social, in the more social, this loop doesn't form. And so these like, activating proteins, they're not getting quite as many like over this gene. And so it's not expressed quite as much, if that makes sense. Yeah. And then I also found that there was like these activating proteins across the whole genome on these like genes in this pathway called the wind signaling pathway. And like in humans, these genes are implicated in like Autism Spectrum Disorders, which has to do with like, antisocial behavior. And so like, I think, in the future, looking at, like, what's going on, specifically there and like what, like those genes specifically are doing in dogs, could be really interesting. Oh, and my controls were like, clean, that's really important to know, like the experiments worked, which doesn't happen a lot of the time.
IM: For my thesis, I don't think I went into that much detail previously. So in terms of what am I specifically looking for what I mean by I have a horse dataset. So I have a dataset of 40 horses. And basically serum samples, blood serum samples were taken from these horses. And there was a composite NMR spectrum that was made from all of the blood samples. And from this NMR spectrum, if you can remember from Gen Chem, if you took gen chem, like what does NMR spectrum do? It helps you identify different molecules, different compounds, different things, buy like chemical shift. And so like, this dataset already came with a pre labeled NMR spectrum of metabolites. So thing like alpha glucose, beta glucose, things metabolites that are in the blood of horses, and humans, too, because it's a disease that affects humans as well, that is associated with OCD. So basically, what my results look like, was taking this dataset and running principal component analysis or partially squares regression. And whatever software it was to try and identify what was the top like 25 most important metabolites that are associated with OCD. And then because this research has already been done before, there's already a list there. And then in metabo, analyst in MATLAB and an R, I'm generating that list and then comparing, Okay, where was the match? How great was the match when I make my PCA model in this versus that? How great is that model? And I found that in terms of the accuracy in terms of, did I just get the metabolites, right, the most metabolites identified metabolite analysts, which is an online platform, zero coding involved whatsoever, you just upload your data, and you click a bunch of buttons, and it does it for you was the most accurate, and I also tracked, like efficiency, because when you're coding, that's important thing too, that a lot of people don't mention, if I was doing it perfectly, and I knew 100% what I was doing, I'd say to me about 32 minutes to do that, but because I did not know what I was doing going in and you know, sometimes you upload the wrong thing, or you have to do like outlier exclusion, delete things from the dataset and put it back up, I'd say probably two to three hours on metabo analyst in terms of like, the worst overall, me personally, I found that it was MATLAB, I do not know how to code in MATLAB. So I had to learn how to use MATLAB. MATLAB is very non user friendly for coming in without any experience at all. And there was actually some error in my code that I was not able to resolve, not using like online resources like Stack Exchange for help or even like the live editor. And also like I experienced this in our in a QC class that I took last semester working with, like genome data, and like you said, if you have too much data, it will crash, my MATLAB crash and I was using MATLAB online many times. So for me, personally, I'd say it took me like four or five hours with my lab. But if I was actually timing, all of the extraneous things that happened, maybe like 8am, there's somebody out there who's like a genius coder and MATLAB, like, oh, my gosh, that's gonna take me two seconds. Well, sorry, that was my experience. And I think overall, even I'm definitely biased as an SSL cert. And all the coding classes I've taken have done been done in our overall I think, like the best like Goldilocks situation was the our programming language. There wasn't complete accuracy and a metabolite list. But in terms of flexibility, like it's not just a random online platform, like there's different avenues and different like workflows, a person can choose an R and R also offers a stokesley analysis, which is a little bit more complex in terms of identifying metabolites that metabo analyst does not offer. And I think, too, because R is a coding programming language and not an online platform, it is a little bit more robust in terms of how, how large of datasets it can handle. So that was what I found in terms of like specifics of my thesis, in terms of overall, I found exactly like what you said, like, it's not really the topic that really makes a thesis is really the advisor and how comfortable you are with them. Because I knew no matter what I was gonna do it my thesis, it was going to be something medically related, something related to coding, I didn't care. And because I have a great advisor, I actually really do enjoy this topic and had a lot of fun doing it. So for anybody listening out there, find the right fit. Don't worry about the project, the project will come after.
HF: Yeah, yeah, vibe, check your potential advisor and supersonic vibe, check them I asked my advisor about her, like, favorite type of music was, and she's like, Well, I'm not gonna answer that. But I will tell you that I've always wanted to learn to play the harmonica. And I was like, that makes sense. I can't explain it. But I think playing the harmonica, that's a good vibe check. Right in the triangle, right? Ding ding. Yeah.
SK: If you guys could go back in time with your thesis, is there anything that you would want to do differently?
HF: I think for me, like, as a disabled student, figuring out accommodations, like, when we talk about accommodations are like this thing that you have that like already exists, and you just ask for it. And then like, ODS will tell you like, yes or no. And that's like, not in actuality, like how it works. Like when you're disabled, you have to like, figure out what it is that you need, and then how you're going to get it, and then how you're going to communicate it. And then like, ask for that after you've done all that. And then see if you get it and a lot of times you don't and then you have to figure out how to do that. Right. And there's like all of these steps involved, while you're still like coping with your disability and everything else that you have to do, right. And like my disability includes, like pain, and like fatigue. And so like a lot of my experience, it's like I'm having to like navigate all of these things, like while I'm experiencing a lot of pain and a lot of exhaustion. And I think that like coming into it. I don't know, necessarily what specifically I would do, but I feel like figuring out a way to be more clear about what kinds of accommodations that I want. Like I mentioned over the summer, I was sick, and I didn't really get to do as much of the lab work as I would have liked. And like part of that was like time constraints, right? Like, we're all like running on, you know, certain timelines, and people are here certain times, and they're not. And, you know, I'm not blaming anybody, especially not in my lab, like they're all amazing. But like, I wish that I could have like, actually had my hands on a lot more in the lab. Like, I wish I could have just like been there more and like been able to do more like the physical parts of it. Because like, for me, coding is not the most rewarding thing. Like that's not what I came into the project to like do for the majority of the time. And so I think like that's really the only thing like I don't have any regrets about the project itself. Like I got a negative result, but like that's science. She's a cruel, cruel mistress sometimes that's okay.
IM: Yeah, I'm gonna save that quote for later. I think I want to really validate what you said. I think it's so important to think about accommodations. I'm also a disabled student of type one diabetes. And so many times when I was in the schools lab, like for hours and hours, my blood sugar drop, and then I got to take off the gloves and take this off hand, sometimes run downstairs, get something to eat and run back up, all without like, and even though like I expressed this to my advisor, because I took a class with him. And so like, you know, when you do accommodations, you've sent your teachers, I still felt like it was being put against me that I had to take breaks. And whether it was black, or a woman or combination of the two, it just did not feel great at all. So if I could go back, I think I'd really like what you said, like, vibe, check my advisor, because I really went off the vibes of how He taught his course, because he really taught a really great course, and but not have him as an advisor and my fit in the lab, because we're the complete opposite. Coding is what makes me feel great, but not doing the hands on experiments. Like when I say I'm a fake chemistry major, I'm a fake chemistry major, I'm just chemistry to be pretty mad. I hate working in the lab, I hate experimental chemistry, physical inorganic stuff, we don't have to mix this with that. That's me, like, put me behind the machine. Let me type Let me code, whatever. That's who I am. And so his lab is a lot more hands on focused. So it's like, oh, I'm doing stuff that I don't even want to do. But at least Hey, maybe I'll be able to put some coding into my thesis question mark. So I wish I would have really taken my time to listen to all of the presenters that came to speak because it's fun actually came to speak during our colloquium, but I wasn't paying attention at the time because like, Oh, I'm already in the lab, like, why am I going to blah, blah, blah. And so I definitely would have joined his lab sooner. And I wish I could have actually done a lot of the NMR experiments, instead of just using someone else's data, it would have been interesting to click my own data, and then do coding on that. So if I could go back in time, that's what I do. Gotcha.
SA: Well, our last question is a little bit more tied to what you guys have already talked about. So if you guys want to, like reiterate what you've mentioned before, or if you want to, you know, bring something new up, but like, what advice would you have for seniors in the future working on their theses?
HF: It's hard, because I feel like all of the like, advice for seniors that you see is like start early. And then they like proceed to follow like intimidation tactics, to try and like scare people into writing their theses. And like, there's a reason why people end up like having to rush like theses at the end, right? You know, like, there's a reason why it's like, hasn't been solved, I guess, is what I'm saying. Like, people still do it no matter what. But I think the whole time I was writing my thesis and working on the project, I would just say like, this is just another thing that I have to do. Right? Like, it's just another requirement on the list of things that you need to graduate and get your degree, like the thesis is one box to be checked. And it can be really long, it can be really big, it can be really stressful. There's a lot of moving parts, and you have to manage it yourself, for the most part, right? Like in a lot of cases. I know in some departments, especially like not stem ones, they're just like, write 100 pages by April, whatever and like turn it in, you know, and you don't necessarily have like that, like accountability. For EEB, like the first day of senior fall, they just send us an email, and they're like, your thesis is due May 1, good luck. You know, and like, that's kind of it like, in the department, the grad students might be reaching out to help or whatever. But like, no one's asking us for drafts. No one's like managing our timeline, it's all on us to do and like, that's a lot. And I don't want to pretend like it isn't, or, like, it isn't hard, or it wasn't hard for me, but it's just another thing you got to do and turn in. You know, like, I tried to think of it as like any other assignment for like a class, you know, and give it like that amount of attention. Whatever time I have for it, it's the time that I have for it. And that's gonna have to be okay. Right. And like, ultimately, you're gonna get a degree, like a good thesis as a done thesis. Right. And like, just really trying to keep it in perspective, in like the long run, this is not going to be like the most defining moment of my life. I really hope not, at least because it was a negative result. But right, like just trying to keep it in perspective. And I think that helped me make like consistent progress on it. Because now instead of it being like this huge life altering thing, but like I'm too scared to open, it's just like, Alright, I'm gonna write a sentence for this assignment. And then I'm going to open up my piece set for whatever class and I'm going to finish that piece. And then if I have time, I'll circle back around and read another sentence and like, that was kind of it. Yeah, I think like, that's the best advice I have is like, start early, if you can, but like that's just like the thesis isn't made for people with disabilities. It isn't made for people who are neurodivergent it is not made for people who are experiencing this campus in ways that people were not intended to IE like this campus was not made for disabled black women, or any woman or any black people or anyone that is not some like rich white dude. So like, you know, like, I think there's there's so many things about it that can be really educational and transformational, you know, like it's a it's a opportunity to learn about something at your own pace. But it's also feeding into this a greater system that's like, super colonial and shitty, and I don't know, if I'm allowed to swear, super colonial and bad. Like, you know, I think like putting once again, like, you know, it's it goes in its little box and it stays in its little box and whatever product you end up with, right, it just has to meet whatever requirements and then turn it in. And that's it.
IM: Where were you, at the beginning of this year to give me that advice. I think that advice is so powerful. Me personally, as a chemistry major, as a pre med. Like this thesis has greatly negatively impacted me physically, mentally, and emotionally. Because you know, as a pre med, you need to have great GPA. And it's like, because I'm a chemistry major, this thesis doesn't just affect my overall GPA, it affects my science GPA for med school also. And it's like, you need different like research publications and things for that. So this thesis was like a lot for me, it was like a make or break of like my GPA of this or that and it like the fact that I was starting behind everybody else in my department, I already felt behind from the get go. So like this thesis really just plagued me, it impacted the rest of my academics and pacted my relationships with other people like, I don't know why, but I've been fighting for my life with this thesis. And so to hear you say that is like really powerful, because at the end of the day, you're right, this is just a piece of paper. It's a book, it's an electronic upload that once it's said and done like it's done. Like I think it's kind of ridiculous. Princeton is the only Ivy League that requires a thesis, like even when like, if you're pre med, you're looking to apply to the ivy League's, that's when there's a thesis requirement when you're applying to like you're in medical school and like an Ivy League school. So like having this requirement and no other Ivy League has that it's so hard. And I think like I just want to validate that for like other people, like know that it's going to be hard. And I think one of the biggest things that helped me was doing the thesis senior, the senior thesis boot camp over spring break, because just like you said, with EEB chemistry is also the same thing. We're just given the due date of April 17. And that was that, go ahead, have fun, no drafts, nothing. Some people advisors, like, if you don't reach out to them, you'll never hear from them. So I think my biggest advice would be don't self isolate. That's like my maladaptive behavior when I'm stressed out to self isolate, surround yourself with friends, especially people in your department, because I was so shocked to head into that senior thesis boot camp and thinking like, oh, my gosh, I'm so behind on my thesis. And not only were there other people, other departments in the same place, or worse than I was, there were other chemistry majors who were in the same place that I was. And I was shocked. I was like, what you mean, I'm not dumb. I'm just struggling like everyone else. And it was such a valid experience to feel that. So I think my greatest advice would be to one, do something you love. You're going to be here for four years or however long you're here for. There's no point of doing something, just to do it. Like I know some people might go get a job and a place that they don't like for the money. You will never be happy that way. Do what's gonna make you happy. And also just surround yourself with other people with good support systems may not be CPS because we know how CPS is here. But surround yourself with friends and loved ones. They'll really help you get through it.
SA: All right, Imani. Hannah, thank you so much for sitting with us. That was really cool learning about your guys's theses. I'm getting like really awesome advice from you guys. But yeah, thank you so much. Thank you.
Eden Teshome: This episode was hosted by Senna Aldoubosh and Simone Kirkevold, sound engineered by me, and produced under the 147th Managing Board of the Prince. For the Daily Princetonian, I’m Eden Teshome. Have a great rest of your day.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai