Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A millennial, Gen Z'er, and Gen X'er walk into a cantina...
Each of us came into Star Wars in our own way, at our own time, and there is so much we can learn from each other when those differences fuel conversation, not conflict. Join Erin, Matthew, and Alex as we share our love for the galaxy far, far away on the Star Wars Generations Podcast!
Matthew
Hello and welcome to this episode of Maul: Shadow Lord. Nope. This is still Star Wars Generations Podcast, but we've been really focused on Maul: Shadow Lord and now all of it is done. And if you don't recognize that laugh by now, what have you been doing with your lives? That is a laugh from Mr. Pete Wright — Star Wars expert extraordinaire, Marvel expert extraordinaire, podcasting extraordinaire, and mentor to me in that regard. I say that so he doesn't fire me. Pete, how are we doing today?
Pete
Oh boy, was this a great way to wrap up this series?
Matthew
It really was the season, I should say. AK-Ahab was with us on a couple of other episodes, just hoping to join us, but I know their life can get a little bit crazy with school and stuff like that, so they may jump in late, they may not be able to make it. But for now, Pete, let's kind of just talk about the heavy-breathing metallic elephant in the room. Darth Vader showed up, and I think he made it work.
Pete
I mean, I went back to our previous conversations and I think every single dark corner was filled with Palpatine, right? I did not see Darth Vader showing up.
Yeah. And the fact that he got a reveal — I would say, again, when we talk about how great it is when they play the tropes, he got a Darth Vader reveal. He got the deep breathing in the mist with the red lightsaber lighting up the perfect angles on the helmet. It was just artistically beautiful and a surprise. And I wonder if I should have been surprised. I did not see it coming. I don't know.
Matthew
I think there are a couple things there. I think part of it is that we know this is all about Sidious. This is all about him wanting to take down Sidious, about him having this kind of lost father figure feeling toward Sidious, who betrayed him and threw him aside. And so I think we've been building to that, and in some ways there was a sense of it being kind of a red herring so that we can bring in Vader. I think the other reason, though — and maybe other people weren't worried about it the way I was — I wasn't even letting myself think about Vader because in my mind, the only person who can properly voice Darth Vader, James Earl Jones, has passed away. Now we know that they have James Earl Jones — voluntarily, with his consent, I'm sure with an awful lot of money as well.
You know, he went in and recorded his voice in such a way that they can use AI to give us Darth Vader saying almost anything in what will sound like James Earl Jones's voice. I very much don't want that. And so when I saw Vader, I was nervous about it. And as Erin and I talked about a couple of days ago, the decision to have Vader not say a word — because he doesn't need to — was perfect.
Pete
It was. It was perfect. I can't help, after episode ten's end-of-credits scene, but wonder — it seems very likely that Vader will return in season two, which is in production right now. And if he does return, that casting decision will matter a lot. I mean, they didn't even cast him vocally in this season, obviously.
There were never plans to have lines for this Vader. And I thought it worked well because I found myself filling them in in my head — I was filling them in with James Earl Jones's voice. And I thought it was pretty stunning, all things being equal.
Matthew
Well, especially because of the role he's playing. They don't even know if he's a man. They don't know what he is. They don't know what's happening.
Pete
"You're no Inquisitor. What are you?"
Matthew
Yeah, I thought it was so well done. And especially because we are seeing him entirely from the perspective of Maul and the other characters — they wouldn't have any idea. And to me, by the time of A New Hope, I think Vader is pretty publicly known as Palpatine's enforcer. At this point, though, we're still supposed to have the shiny happy emperor. We are still in the "I just want to make the trains run on time" phase, not the "I'm going to invade Abyssinia" phase of Mussolini — just trying to be a good empire. And so I can understand if they don't want people to know: "Oh yeah, this guy who looks an awful lot like that nightmare thing we've talked about for a thousand years — the Sith — he's working for the emperor, but don't worry, it's fine."
Yeah. And so I don't know if part of that is the secrecy, but I just thought everything about the terror he instilled was masterfully done. Having it start with Rook running into the mists — it's a cliché, you know, the moment she runs into those mists, something is going to kill her. But you're right, they did a very good job of keeping it ambiguous: she dies of something, but it could be some monster creature, it could be Vader, it could be Palpatine, it could be something else. And then the reveal of Vader is just perfectly done.
Pete
Well, we also get the horror drag, right? I do love that she's dragged out — force-dragged by her ankles on the ground. I thought that was a really nice touch. The impending threat. The use of sound was extraordinary — the blasters, the lightsaber firing up. I think that was really solid. Interesting choreography of Vader, because — I mean, chronologically, one of the things that's so beautiful about this is that we actually have Palpatine's thug one fighting Palpatine's thug two, right? Like putting these two characters together and making Maul — who was a preeminent thug in terms of sheer ability — look small next to Vader. Now, the last time we saw Vader in the form of Anakin, he was a very able lightsaber fighter.
And here, I think they made some really conscious choices around animating Vader as closer to A New Hope Vader. He was just a blunt force trauma guy. He just waxed and waxed and waxed. There was none of the Anakin artistry, none of the Inquisitor artistry, none of the Maul artistry.
And Vader still dominates because of sheer presence, sheer presence of will. I thought that was a really interesting choice. Did that strike you at all? It definitely did.
Matthew
It definitely did. Erin had made the point that it did seem like the fighting style was different and that he was a little bit more technical when fighting Maul because that was more of a challenge. And I think there's definitely some truth to that. But I think you're right — especially as I was rewatching it, it just seemed like there's none of the parkour that Anakin used to do, none of the bouncing around. And I'm getting ready to play a game of Dungeons and Dragons, so this metaphor will — some of our folks may understand it, hopefully everyone can sort of get what I'm talking about. In Dungeons and Dragons, you can attack with a strength-based weapon, where you roll your strength modifier, or you can have a dexterity-based attack, which is much more finesse. And it felt like Anakin had a dexterity-based attack. Vader 100% has a strength-based attack.
Pete
Absolutely. That's absolutely what I got out of it too.
Matthew
AK has joined us. Welcome. AK, we're kind of starting at the back and talking about the Vader reveal and how he worked in the show. What was your thought when you first saw Vader, and how did you feel his presence wound up working out?
AK-Ahab
Yeah, I think his presence ended up working out better than I thought it was going to. I mean, I was hyped to see him — it's hard not to be hyped to see him — as much as I was kind of hoping the story wasn't going to veer in that direction. I think they did a good job.
Not giving this too much. Vader has this really scary, quiet quality as a figure who shows up and poses a problem — that's the original Vader. He doesn't have as much personality in the original trilogy as I think they've given him in some of the later works. I like seeing that version of Vader again.
Matthew
Well, certainly he doesn't in A New Hope. And I've always had the idea that part of what happens is he has this moment with Luke and he connects and realizes Skywalker is his offspring. And that's what in Empire and the others kind of sets him off.
But you're right. In A New Hope, he is just the attack dog of his master. And you brought up, Pete, that there's this wonderful synergy of Sidious's two different enforcers going at it. And I'm glad that none of this was from Vader's perspective.
I think it's very much from Maul's and from Doki's and from Devon's. And I like that we get the sense — because by the time of Rebels and Maul's last episode, he knows that Vader is Anakin, and he tells Obi-Wan that, and Obi-Wan knew that. But he tells others that too. And I love that we get the sense that this is where he first starts to figure it out. What I don't have any idea of — and I didn't want it answered now — but if we get Vader in season two, I do want to know at some point: does Vader connect the person he's fighting now to the person who made him duck as a little boy on Tatooine, and probably the first person to put real fear into him, and also the person who killed Qui-Gon, who in his mind was responsible for getting him out of slavery and into the Jedi? We know that Vader tries to block out most of his memories of Anakin. So I don't know if he makes that connection at all. But this is so soon after he becomes Vader — the conflict is still very much in him, from what we know from the comics and some books. I would love to know more from his perspective: what is it like fighting the first red lightsaber he ever saw in his life?
Pete
That's really interesting. What it makes me think of is just how long Anakin has been Vader at the time of this show. My hunch is it's around two years. And I think it's kind of a surprise that they had not heard of Vader by now — as much as Maul has been on the run from the Empire, what this entire story presages is that Vader has not been in his "thug number two" role for that long. Maybe he's been doing something else — who knows what he's been doing for the last two years. But that is an interesting story to me, that he's essentially been stewing as level-up thug for Sidious for two years and has not been called out on this adventure.
Matthew
Well, or the people who he's going after don't live to tell anyone. Because you have to think — right now, most of what he's doing is finding Order 66 survivors and either killing them or recruiting them into the Inquisitorius.
And we do know from some of the books that he has been going out and doing that, and some of the Inquisitors certainly know who he is. But let's say he tries to go after a Jedi — who's the Jedi going to tell?
Pete
Because everybody hates the Jedi right now. So I think he's probably been more active than we think, but he's not appearing on galactic news next to Sidious the way I think he is by the time of A New Hope. Yeah.
AK-Ahab
I also think there's probably an adjustment period. I mean, we know Anakin's injuries are extensive and we know that Vader's suit is specifically designed to limit him in certain ways that were strategic on the part of Sidious — he wanted him to struggle physically in that suit. And so I'm sure there's also a degree to which it took Anakin slash Vader some time to get back to the point where he'd be comfortable going toe to toe with not just some random Jedi, but a Sith that Sidious knows firsthand is really competent.
Pete
And speaking of that point specifically — if we go back to Rebels, Maul tells Ezra, "I'm not going to go up against Vader." And this is the setup to that experience. So I guess the collective question is: how well do you believe that this is the reason Maul says he's not going up against Vader again? Is that satisfying?
AK-Ahab
I imagine there will be another encounter if the show goes forward. I think to go from Maul in The Clone Wars, who was trying to recruit Ahsoka specifically to go kill the Emperor and Anakin, to Maul who confronts Darth Vader and is maybe or maybe not aware that that's the same person he was just trying to fight, to Maul in Rebels who has Ahsoka there who's ready to fight Anakin — and him being like, "No, I'm actually out" — I feel like there's got to be a little bit more that goes on there. But we'll see.
Pete
So yeah — sorry, Matthew. Go ahead.
Matthew
Before you jumped in, we were talking about how, at least for both of us, it really worked that Vader never speaks. At least for my part, because I'm not really comfortable with the James Earl Jones zombie voice thing that they've talked about doing. If there's a season two, Vader may be a bigger part of it and we might have Vader speaking.
If nothing else, I'm going to be really curious: how does Vader handle the Inquisitors who failed? And how does Sidious handle Vader who failed? Since everyone except Docky is alive. How would you want it handled — do you want them to just keep Vader off screen if he's supposed to speak? Do you want them to do AI James Earl Jones? Do we want a recast? What do you think would work?
AK-Ahab
I feel like, I'm pretty anti-AI, but James Earl Jones did in his life consent to being used in that kind of way. And so I think that does make me a little bit more comfortable with the use of it for this particular character, because it is at least a voice actor who in their life said, "Yes, I am okay with this." I think a recast would be fine. Honestly, with the voice modulation technology we have today, you could find someone with a similar enough voice presence. I mean, Hayden Christensen's voice is different enough from James Earl Jones's voice that you've got to be able to find something in between somewhere.
And I think keeping his dialogue minimal would be valuable. I'm mostly wondering if we're going to get some sort of conversation between Maul and Vader, because Maul — not in these last two episodes but in the episodes before — says something like, "I don't want Sidious to do this to anyone else. I'm not going to let him do this to anyone else." And Vader is literally the next person that Sidious did this to, groomed from childhood into this position of being enslaved to the dark side. I think a conversation between Maul and Vader would be really interesting, because I think Vader would reject that wholeheartedly. So to that degree, I would like there to be maybe some dialogue, but keeping it minimal would probably be my preference — just because, again, we go back to Episode IV Vader, who's kind of reserved, kind of quiet, out there to give commands and that's pretty much it.
Matthew
I can skip over the Rogue One "issuing puns as part of threats" phase of Vader and just sort of ignore that. Let him be the hallway guy instead of the "choke on your aspirations" Vader. I think I'm with you — keeping it minimal.
I think that if we have to have generative AI, the James Earl Jones full-consent, fully negotiated, pre-recorded-for-this-purpose approach is the best way to do it. But it still feels like I want to beat back every possible avenue of that. I just think it's all troubling — it's stealing from people. Anyway, I don't want to go off on that tangent. But I think I'd be much happier if it was Hayden Christensen with an amazing amount of voice modulation, or someone else, just not disturbing what James Earl Jones has done.
Pete
Well, arguably a bigger swing would be to not have Vader in season two at all. There is plenty of story for Maul and Crimson Dawn. And maybe this was just the big guest appearance and they can move on, right? Because Vader will be busy.
Matthew
Yeah, that's right. And so yeah, you could have the Inquisitors talking about "remember what Vader said" or "remember, they killed so-and-so because blah blah blah."
So staying on the dark side of it all — obviously one of the other big things we get, and again we kind of knew it was coming for a long time, is what seems to be Devon's fall and Devon's taking on the role of Maul's apprentice. What do we think? How was that handled?
AK-Ahab
Yeah, I mean, I don't have a whole lot to say about it because I think for me the big question is what happens next — the degree to which this is a satisfying fall is determined by the extent of the fall and the direction. But I think it made a lot of sense. Maul's kind of hand in Docky's death — and it isn't so much his direct hand in the death, but he was very clearly sabotaging things going on there — is really interesting, and I do kind of wonder if Devon is ever going to fully trust Maul.
Pete
Probably not. And I think that's a good spot to have her in — fertile for this story. Because either they're going to need to make the case that she was just latent evil all along, or she's kind of dumb, and neither one of those is an incredibly satisfying solution. Because the show is the Maul show, there is this kind of anti-hero vibe where he appears to have sufficiently convinced her that doing bad for the right reasons is enough of a motivator for a character. And I guess I'm with AK — I think how satisfying that becomes will depend on how believable it is that she becomes this anti-hero character in season two. That is a really hard narrative path to find yourself on.
Matthew
I think there's an extent to which Devon can't be his full-on apprentice for very long, for very different reasons than what you guys are talking about. Because I went back and watched the whole season again — my wife hadn't seen it before and she likes to watch it all at once. And one thing I was struck by was how many times early on she is already chafing at the Jedi codes. When Docky says we can't steal even when we're starving, we have to beg instead — he says "we rely on the kindness of strangers," which is a phrase I can't hear without it being a reference to A Streetcar Named Desire. I can't see why it would be, but I've never heard that phrase without it being that reference. But put it aside. When Docky lets her be arrested, and then when she's being taken away and Docky decides to rescue a couple of random people who are going to die if the bridge falls — instead of her — every one of those beats you can see her feeling like "this isn't working." And she talks about how the principles Docky wants to believe in — like 99% of the people who did that got killed and got treated like chumps. So I think there's a lot more there.
And I do think that Maul — I've always thought like, Return of the Jedi is one of my favorite movies, and the Emperor's attempts to convert Luke are really dumb. The whole "by the way, I'm going to tell you what to do and if you do it, it will make you mine" thing is a good reason not to do it. Vader is much better at it, by pissing Luke off about his sister. And I feel like Maul actually is the best at it — just subtly building that anger. And you're right: he doesn't kill Docky, he doesn't come close to it, but he gives Doki that little shove that allows Vader to go full on. And I don't know if you caught this, but the maneuver Vader uses — driving him down and then just overhand cut and overhand cut until he can't even raise his arm anymore — is the exact same thing Luke does to Vader, which I love. But yeah, so to me I fully am on board believing that Devon is exploring the dark side, especially in this area where Maul is able to say, "I'm not the Emperor, I want to take down the Emperor." To me, this is kind of like what Ezra flirts with in Rebels — can we use some of the dark side without fully becoming it?
The other hand for me, though, is the reason I think it can't be that she just fully becomes Darth Talon and is his apprentice for the next twelve years or whatever — is because everything that we see of him in Rebels, when he tries to recruit Ahsoka and then tries to recruit Ezra, he's not saying "I need a new apprentice." He's not saying "I had a wonderful apprentice for a while." He really is coming from a place of having never really had a full apprentice. And this is the kind of prequelitis that can happen — where they might just try to shove it in. But what I really hope is that they honor that by having her be kind of going in that direction but never really fully there.
And at the end, there's some kind of a challenge, and Maul maybe has to kill her, or she gets killed by something else, or maybe the two of them take on Vader again or even Sidious and she gets killed — whatever that might be.
Pete
Yeah, this is a "dance with the devil by the pale moonlight" situation. It would not surprise me if this is the wicked trickster trying to set us up to believe it's Talon, when in fact she is bereaved and furious — and that's why she picks up the red saber in the moment. Those feelings don't last, and she has proven she is perfectly capable of choosing a third path. It would not surprise me at all to find a third path.
AK-Ahab
I think what's likely to be the motivator for keeping her with Maul is pride. I think she thinks she can use Maul more than Maul can use her. And I get the sense that that'll be what gets her kind of caught in a situation where — thinking character-wise, if they were going to get her to stay as his apprentice for an extended period of time — I think it has to go something like what Sidious ultimately pulls with Anakin, which is you get them to do something they kind of can't take back. And so they just have to embrace it and move on. Anakin ultimately helps Sidious kill Mace Windu and then goes, "Well, I can't go back now." And I'm wondering if there's maybe a similar sort of setup with Devon, where she's going to think she's playing an in-between role, kind of think she's using Maul, and then do something she can't come back from and go, "Well, I guess I'm here now." And then that plays out in a different way.
Matthew
Erin actually had a great theory about this when we chatted a couple days ago. I am — I love a good teenage romance, I love a good Dawson's Creek story — I don't want that in this show. And so the Riley of it all is not what I'm super excited about. I don't want something where she's torn back and forth with Riley representing like the good side of her and all that kind of stuff.
But what Erin pointed out is that if Maul plays it right, Devon's "helping to kill Mace Windu" moment — her equivalent of it — will be that she has to kill Riley. And I do think that could be a real challenge moment of: does she do it? Maybe she resists it, doesn't do it, and that's why she never really becomes the apprentice he wants.
AK-Ahab
I was going to say, especially because I think Riley is still in a precarious position in terms of his allegiance to the Empire, just because of his family ties, right.
Pete
Well, I think Two-Boots is going to go full Westworld and just tear Riley apart — you know, just a rage-fueled robot bender.
Matthew
Okay. I feel like the struggle is going to be between Two-Boots and Riley's mom, because I don't really get that. I mean, the only really sour note in all of this was the Lawson's father — the sacrificial father plotline. It felt as though he really sacrificed himself.
Pete
If you don't see a body, he can come back. We've seen this time and time again.
Matthew
Well, he may have failed to sacrifice, but he certainly attempted, and the son believes he has sacrificed himself. Yes, that's true. I agree that the show that showed us Maul decapitating numerous people is not worried about our tender sensibilities when it comes to bodies, but it felt so clichéd. I've never really cared about the space lacrosse player — he just doesn't ring true to me. And one thing we really set up with Lawson is that he's so against the Empire, and that part of why he and his wife split was that she was in bed with the Empire. And so him saying at the end of "Two-Boots," "get him to his mother" — that just rang wrong to me. What do you all think of that, and his whole plotline?
AK-Ahab
Yeah, I think the tough thing about Lawson is he's set up as this anti-Empire character, but he's still a cop. The contradictions in that character are just really tough to tease out, because you have this non-white character who's supposed to be a protagonist who's anti-Empire but is still at the end of the day working for law enforcement, a cop who sends his son back to the Empire. I just kind of don't know what to do with him.
And I was like, okay, I thought there was maybe going to be some interesting stuff done there in terms of his full deconstruction away from the system of justice he was working in. But I think you're right — they just went with a cliché option that absolves that discussion from having to happen.
Pete
No, I think I'm more bullish on it than you guys. I actually think there's a lot of room for a continued complex conversation about the family's role inside and outside of the Empire. His allegiance to law enforcement was completely inseparable from his impression of the Empire — that they were the wrong thing about law enforcement. Him sending Riley to his mother is an act of familial loyalty and trust that his mother will do the right thing. I'm actually not convinced she's in a part of the Empire that she would even understand is doing bad stuff. I mean, we've seen so many examples across the books of people who work for the Empire just because they're like gate attendants, right? They're just trying to get by — they eat their cereal in the morning, they go work in data refinement in the afternoon. Who knows what role she's actually playing? I don't think it's in a militarized area. That gives us a chance to have a bigger conversation about her allegiance. And let's say the father is dead — who knows what is left after Riley's interrogation by the Inquisitor? That's potentially a ticking time bomb that has not been answered or addressed in the last two episodes of the show. So I'm actually fascinated by what could happen. The show wants to make us think it's the clichéd choice, and maybe it's not.
Matthew
I think that would be interesting to do, but I think they're already doing that with another character, and that's Two-Boots. To me, Two-Boots is the one who's having that awakening. He's the one where someone says "a young Black man is having a problem, let's call the cops — what's wrong with that?" He just doesn't get the issue there. And by the end, he's discovered that the leopards will eat the faces of his friends, and he's had a real conversion moment. And so I think we're already getting with him that story of the person who just doesn't notice the problems of the Empire but has now had them in his face. With the mother — I think the fact that Riley contacted her and said "Dad's been in prison and they're doing these terrible things," and her response was "No, I'm sure the Empire is good, don't worry about it" — that cuts it off somewhat. I think it could become the story you're talking about, but I would be a little disappointed by that. I think they had the chance to start down that road and they didn't. And we already got that story in Andor, we got that story with Two-Boots. I'm not sure that's a story we need to get again, especially because I just have not found any reason to be invested in Riley.
Pete
Well, I'm with you in Camp Dawson. I didn't need the Dawson character from his perspective. I don't necessarily mind the character when I think about it from the father's perspective, because that is a different story than what we've had before. I don't need Riley to have his own B or C story in season two — I could be done with that. But I do kind of like, again from the mother's perspective: what does it look like to grieve the loss of your ex-husband at the hands of the people you work for? And I'll say it again — I love the tropes when they're played well. I don't mind having that conversation again on this show if it's done in an interesting way. I like it when Darth Vader lights up his red lightsaber in the dark. That's going to keep happening. This is the same tool done narratively, and it's new. Something that started with Andor, playing the family heartstrings in a different way — bringing that aesthetic from some of the authorial reaches in the books — and I think they're really playing with those things for us in a different medium and I'm here for it.
Matthew
That's right. And I will say there's one way I would like the romance plotline to go forward, which is this: I don't want it to be something in opposition to what she's doing with Maul. Because one thing I've always thought was kind of weird — but makes sense given the people who were telling these stories and who they thought they were telling them to, especially in the Legends canon books but also in some of the stories — is the idea that the first line of the Sith Code is "peace is a lie, there is only passion." The Sith are supposed to be people ruled by their passions. And part of that should mean you're allowed to get attached to people the way the Jedi don't. And yet most of the Sith that we've seen are basically celibate. Palpatine never has any romance. And again, Maul never had any romance.
I think that could be an interesting way of Maul catching Devon and being like, "Well, I have feelings for Riley, but I don't know what to do with them because I'm not supposed to have attachment," and Maul being like, "No — passion, live into your passions." And then also saying, "But if he becomes a weakness, then you kill it." Something like that.
Pete
But yeah — you imagine how jarring that would be on this show, because of the aesthetic we've had from the Sith so far in all television and big-screen implementations. There is none of what you're talking about — zero, zilch, bupkis. We have never heard that. That would be so jarring for Maul to say, "Go get some, get yours." That would be awesome. And what?
Matthew
Pete, I am saying this with the most love ever, but I know that you've seen The Acolyte and so this feels like the best confirmation that you are a straight man that I've ever heard in my life.
Pete
You're right. I had — yeah, I know there's a lot of thirst in The Acolyte. You're right. Maybe the High Republic was exactly where we need to get for people to just, you know, get busy.
Matthew
I'm just saying — back me up here.
AK-Ahab
Yeah, no. And I think my conception of the Sith in the Old Republic has always been like a hedonistic Sith, right? If you go even further back — before the Rule of Two — I think the Rule of Two is kind of where the Sith are like, "We need to get down to business, our passions need to take a back seat to the mission." But when I think of the Sith of the Old Republic, I'm very much thinking of Sith who are probably just like — everybody in the Sith Academy or Sith temple is stuck with everybody, because that's like —
Pete
They're like based on Caligula's Rome, right? Like —
Matthew
I think — and here we have to wrestle with something — the Darth Talon figure that Devon may grow into has this problem too. You're completely right, AK, but a lot of that was written very much by what seemed like teenage boys — or we're actually adult men writing mostly for teenage boys. And like, I love how some of the hedonism is portrayed, but every woman in that world is a femme fatale of the most extreme kind — take an Asajj Ventress with the stab-you-then-pull-you-in-for-a-kiss thing. It's all of that. And I think Darth Talon — part of why some groups are excited to see Darth Talon — she's a great character in many ways. If you cosplay the Darth Talon that's appeared in a lot of the art, it's not a family-friendly outfit, let's put it that way. And so yeah, I think they've kind of been restrained. I think part of why they haven't gone into that is because a lot of it's written in very sexist ways. They may just decide not to touch it. I don't want Talon — and apparently she wouldn't even be "Darth" if she's with Maul — I don't want her in any kind of that outfit, especially because I think she's a teenager. But yeah, I do think they could at least play with it, make it more of a PG-13 version. I do think Maul would be like, "Yeah, if you have your passions, chase your passions — go ride off into the sunset or whatever."
AK-Ahab
Yeah. I wonder how they would get Maul to that point, because he is so single-minded. If we think about the Ahab of it all — he does have a mission he doesn't really want to be distracted from. And I'm wondering where the distraction from his vengeance, the distraction from his goal, would complicate his willingness to tell Devon to go spend time doing something else. That's a problem I run into, because I would much rather — I would love to see Maul get into some sort of romantic entanglement somewhere and have to deal with that, but that's not where we're going. Because if Devon goes that direction, I think there's going to be an internal tension between the romance and what she's doing with Maul, where I think you're right, it'd be much more interesting if that tension wasn't there. But because of the stakes we've set up and the fact that they're on the run and Maul has these explicit goals in mind, they make that difficult.
Matthew
As the one person here who has been a parent of teenagers, I can understand, Pete, if this takes you to very different places.
Pete
You know, like — my kids are grown. This gets to become a playground again. I think you're right. All I'm spinning on is the fact that I totally missed the Old Republic stuff — my rant about "sexy sexy Star Wars times." And I still think that would be a bold expression for the mainline story here. And I also, I wonder — I can't quite see how Devon becomes the Talon, the iconic Talon that comes out of the other properties. She does not look anything like she'd need to look. What is it that takes her to a complete change of skin?
AK-Ahab
Well, I was thinking the way we would get there would be the kind of dramatic shift that happens with Maul — because Maul goes from this reserved, quiet character to having his body cut in half and going through an existential, Force-level breakdown. You know, The Clone Wars had the Mortis arc. What would have happened to Anakin's character had he come out of that with the memory of what he saw? And so I think the Star Wars universe has at its disposal things that can make a character undergo something so incomprehensible that they lose their mind and fall into a complete dark side state. But I don't know — we've seen that.
Pete
It seems like the easiest path — and I don't know if that's what they're planning.
Matthew
Yeah. Certainly eyes turn color when you become more Sith. So Twilix — Sith, you know, becoming — although again, they're not Sith; that's part of the point. And yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see. I also think there may be a time jump — the next season of Maul may take place five years down the line, when Talon is older as an adult.
Because to me, I've always thought one of the things so interesting about Maul — and his plotline with his brother Savage Opress shows this best, but it comes through a bunch of times including in this — is that there's a struggle that happens when you know you had a parent who was terrible to you, and now you're trying to be a parent yourself. That's true also if your parents are terrible to each other — that's the model of romantic love you know. If one of your parents is abusive to you, that's the model of parental love you know. He became deeply abusive to Savage when he was Savage's master, because that's the model he was taught. And I think he's somewhat learned a lesson from that with Savage. But I'll be curious to see how that plays out with Devon. Is he falling into some of the same patterns of what he learned from Sidious, or is he doing something totally different?
Pete
Can we talk about Dryden Voss and Solo?
Matthew
That's my other sour note — otherwise a very good thing.
Pete
But yeah — I wanted to offer you an opportunity to air your grievances, because I had a feeling as I was watching it last night that this might be an area of contention. I'll let AK go first.
AK-Ahab
Yeah. Honestly, I don't even know that I fully put that together when it showed up. Solo is so far from my brain in a lot of ways in terms of where I situate it within the rest of Star Wars continuity. So I guess I was like, "Okay. Well, this is here. We'll see how this goes." And that's kind of my take from it, because I was like, "Oh, I forgot this was there."
Pete
Yeah, it was out of the blue in Solo too — it was a complete new idea. I had never considered it. I didn't hate it, and — controversial hot take — I actually kind of liked Solo. I thought it was a pretty good movie. I had a good time with it.
AK-Ahab
And to be clear, I like Solo too. It's just not one that I remember is in the continuity.
Matthew
I mean, Solo to me is a fantastic standalone heist movie that just happens to have characters named similar to a movie I like. Because although I do think he's a fantastic linear carousel — I haven't seen Solo in a while because it's not one of my favorites — I do have a pretty good memory of that scene. And it definitely feels like Maul was the one pulling strings. My memory of it is that at that point, Dryden is kind of reporting to Maul, and that's why Qi'ra kind of becomes the one to report to Maul. And I feel like the only reason you actually bring Dryden Voss into it is if you're going to get Paul Bettany to voice him. And they didn't — they got someone who did a pretty good Paul Bettany impersonation, and it took like three sentences before I could put together that no, this is not Paul Bettany.
And prequels aren't always hard because people have plot armor. So at that ending, we knew Maul wasn't going to die, but we didn't really know if anybody else was going to live. I think even Merrick could just become, you know, green gas ghost man when he shows up later. And so introducing another person who you know has to live — I thought was a real mistake. Especially if the only reason to bring in Dryden is if you're going to have Paul Bettany. It could just be like someone talks to Dryden and now this is Dryden's lieutenant who's come to represent him, because then you're not worrying about why this voice is wrong and you also aren't stuck with another character who has plot armor.
Pete
I'll say — it took me all the times they've dipped into Dryden Voss in this show, it was really up to the very end that I caught, "Oh god, that's the same — that's the Paul Bettany Dryden Voss. Oh my god, how did I not see that coming?" And then I found I kind of liked it, you guys. I really kind of liked it. I liked the idea that they set up a deal in this show and the cliffhanger is that the only one who doesn't know Dryden Voss is not going to get what he wants out of this exchange is Dryden Voss. And we know — plot armor specifics indicate — we know how that's going to end. And I have to say I was kind of happy with the choice. I thought that gives me something to look forward to because now it's not the "what" I need to worry about — it's the "how." And sometimes the "how" is exactly what I need to just ruminate on.
Matthew
Like I said, I think if they had just gotten Dryden's lieutenant and said "this is how Maul plugs into Crimson Dawn and starts whatever he's doing with Qi'ra," I'd be there for that. And I really — if as I imagine a lot of season two is going to be him jockeying with Qi'ra — would love for Qi'ra to come into the mix somehow and see more of her. But I also love it if we get Dryden Voss — and if so, I really want those actors to come back as voice actors, and we know Paul Bettany has done voice acting. Like all of JARVIS was pure voice acting.
Pete
Right, right. Yeah, I'm here for it. I think he's an interesting part of this character. And that's what takes me back to a season without Vader. I think it is the Crimson Dawn season — let us see exactly how threatening Crimson Dawn can be. That is a story I am here for. Unleash the crime syndicate in a way that we have not seen before. I'm fascinated by that. I want to see the Heat version of this. I want to see the Scorsese version of Crimson Dawn animated in this style. That would be fantastic.
AK-Ahab
I would also love to see Crimson Dawn — and the question I was asking myself was: well, if Vader and Palpatine now know that Maul is still out there and up to stuff, how is it going to be the case that whatever crime organization he's working with — we talk about this in debate policy often — exists in that double bind between you're doing something big enough that it gets the state's attention, but then if it gets the state's attention, you're going to get crushed. So where is the in-between that they're going to have to exist in? Like, this is a scary crime syndicate, but it's not scary enough that it's going to draw a bunch of the Empire's attention and get squished. How they're going to navigate that I think will be really interesting, because I wonder if they're just going to go somewhere in the galaxy that the Emperor doesn't care about, or if they're going to strike some back-channel deal with the Empire. I don't know — another possibility.
Matthew
Yeah. Because again, it's a thing of all the various properties that we could tie into. And Maul obviously has a deep connection with the Night Sisters — him being a Nightbrother and all that. And we also know that Merrick is going to eventually wind up with the Night Sisters. And we don't know anything about what happens with the Night Sisters in between them being wiped out in The Clone Wars and then showing up as ghosts in Rebels and in Jedi: Survivor, and then we get them in the Ahsoka show.
AK-Ahab
Well, there's also Tales of the Empire — we get that arc with Morgan Elsbeth. That's right, yeah. And she is working with Thrawn, so I'm wondering if there's a connection somewhere in there between Dathomirians or Night Sisters who are kind of working with the Empire and Dathomirians or Night Sisters who are kind of working outside of it.
Matthew
Yeah, well, especially because Maul has clearly had those legs that Mother Talzin created for him pretty badly damaged. So yeah, I don't know. I think it's not something to hang my hat on, but I think there's a lot of possibilities for Nightsisters showing up that wouldn't be the worst thing — I love them. I'm always for it. Are we —
AK-Ahab
I think it would allow them to introduce some of Talon's aesthetic, if Devon gets in with the Night Sisters a little bit.
Pete
Are we pouring one out for Spybot?
AK-Ahab
Oh, that was so sad. Yes, I love Spybot. That's so sad. And that is really done.
Pete
They hung a flag on that — I mean we saw everything. We saw a body essentially. Spybot was dissolved in the acid. I don't think we're going to get another Spybot.
Matthew
And I admit, Spybot was getting on my nerves a bit by the end — I felt like he was kind of played out. And so when they made his death something I cared about in a way I didn't think they would be able to — but also I was like, I'm ready to be done with Spybot. So I thought that was very well handled. Well, this has been about an hour. Any other last things you want to bring up that we haven't touched on, or questions you want to pose?
Pete
I feel like this show has been in some serious high-rated Star Wars series territory for me. I did not expect it to be as meaningful. But it's up there with Clone Wars for what Clone Wars was able to accomplish. I am as eager for season two as I was for the last season of Clone Wars stuff. I'm really excited to see what they do. It seems like they're having a lot of fun. The art is beautiful. The characters — even Dawson — I can put up with Dawson. The characters are really rich. I think this is fun. The Kremlinology too — figuring out with you both where this is going to pull from in the lore to make this a continued fantastic show. I'm here for it.
AK-Ahab
Yeah, I'm also excited. I'm having a lot of fun with Maul's philosophy and his tensions between where he's situated with the dark side and what that means in a world where he knows the Empire is evil. And I also have just liked the crime syndicate situation — I really enjoyed Qi'ra this whole season as a character.
I want more of the people who are doing things in the background of the galaxy that are making people's lives hard, who aren't the Empire. I've been having fun with that, and so I'm excited for what this show is going to do. And I just — I do think the art for this show is pretty top tier. I think they've really nailed the Clone Wars animation style in a very crisp, fresh way. It's just gorgeous to look at, and so I'm super excited about more.
Matthew
Yeah, we were saying before we started recording — and I'm going to make sure I do one last session with Erin and Alex about this show — and I'm going to make sure we talk about lightsabers in the mist, because we never did. But everything — like, one of my favorite shots was when we were focusing on Lawson and what he was doing, and just in the background were these red and blue lights flashing from the lightsabers.
For me, though, the final comment — and let you guys respond and then bring this to a close — Pete, you said that they're kind of putting Maul and maybe Devon into the anti-hero category. And I would actually say part of why I was really impressed by the show is I don't think it did that. I think it let Maul stay a villain. He is fighting against someone we think should be fought against, but he is far beyond even the Punisher or someone like that in terms of methods used. I think we're supposed to feel like "this is not cool, this is not okay." And if he makes Devon fall — she's going to become more powerful, but I think it's going to be something we look at as bad. And I think it is very hard for a show to have a villain as its protagonist. And I think they did a really good job of making him deeply sympathetic, deeply relatable — someone you're kind of rooting for even though you hate it, or don't hate it, but still not feeling like "oh, but he's fighting the Emperor, so it's okay." He has had — like there has been no redemption arc whatsoever for him, and I don't want there to be. And I think that's incredible storytelling.
AK-Ahab
I think one of the things I struggle with a lot of times in narratives that are working within a structure of fascism is this willingness to justify pretty abysmal actions in the name of fighting evil. And I think Maul, to the contrary, is an example of: no, there actually is such a thing as going too far. Just fighting evil is not sufficient — you have to be fighting for something good. Just being out for revenge, just being out to get your own piece of something, is not actually the resistance to fascism that you think it is. It's just selfishness. It's just evil. And I really enjoy that they've nailed that down pretty clearly.
Pete
I mean, I think the final two episodes do an able job of building sympathy — especially in his flashbacks and reflections of his youth, his abuse and abandonment. Those images, while they may not in practice make him an anti-hero — you know, doing bad things for the cause of good — certainly have all the trappings of a character of that particular gestalt. And I think that's kind of important to keep people watching the show. Because if he continues to be just bad, then we don't get a chance to explore the complexity of him as an organism — and that's more interesting to me. Not just "he's always bad," but why is he doing that stuff? I think this show is making the case that he's not just selfish, and that makes me more curious than ever about this character.
Matthew
Yeah. I feel like there's a middle ground between what you two are saying, because to me — yeah, I don't think it said he's always evil. I think it's that stepping away from evil and showing the moral complexity of evil doesn't have to mean that all of a sudden you're good. That's to me the thing. And I think here's where we pour one out for Spybot — I want to pour one out for Rook as well, because I think — yeah, right — in those last episodes, they're making him more and more kind of heroic, but then showing that all the people who followed him, believing in him, are happily consigned to their death once he gets Devon. He doesn't care about them anymore. And he feels more about Spybot than he does for any of the rest of them — which, Spybot's kind of cool, but also, a couple of them were his own, you know. And where are his Nightbrothers in some way?
And that's why the bot was his puppy. Spybot was his child. I think he made Spybot.
Yeah. So Spybot is to him as R2 is to Anakin and then Luke.
Yeah. But I think the fact that we're having this discussion is the brilliance — he's not the villain we're rooting for someone to take down, but he's also not on a redemption arc. I guess that's more my point. Like, to me, to be an anti-hero, you have to have — not even some kind of redemption arc, but some kind of level of "you've switched sides and now you're helping them." He doesn't switch sides to help the good guys. He convinces the good guys that they should work with him.
Pete
Yes. This is an "enemy of my enemy" story much more than a redemption arc. But again, the trappings make it look very similar. It is certainly cosplaying as an anti-hero story.
Matthew
Well, and he said it so well in episode two: "You are operating under the premise that I am the villain here, but things are not so simple as good and evil."
Pete
That's the mission statement of the season. That's the whole thing. Yeah. All right. Well, this has been fantastic. Each of you — where can people find you? You can find me at TruStory.fm — that's where I do a lot of podcasting. I'm at Pete Wright on socials, wherever it matters.
Matthew
TruStory.fm is where you can find about 95% of the important work that Pete does. But if you go to Amazon or your local bookstore or online seller, you can find The Lattice — the new sci-fi novella that I'm about halfway through and really enjoying — by Mr. Pete Wright. So definitely check that out as well. AK?
AK-Ahab
Yeah, I'm on Instagram and TikTok at Iron Kingdom Adventures and I post up there from time to time.
Matthew
Awesome. Well, thank you both so much. Of course, please check out Superhero Ethics — we're doing a lot of fun things. Check out Marvel Movie Minute, where Pete and I are talking about a Marvel movie — a Marvel movie that I actually enjoy, which I am one for four now in the movies that they've gotten me to come on for. Although I did wind up enjoying Thor the first one a lot more. The second, not so much.
Pete
So don't place yourself as the anti-hero of that podcast.
Matthew
No, I'm the Maul. I'm the villain. I'm still nitpicking things, but at least we're finding some good roots. So please check all that out — all of that is on TruStory.fm or TheEthicalPanda.com or Pete — is it Pete —
Pete
Writes. No — actually my personal website is ItsMe Pete dot com. You can find everything there.
Matthew
Because you're a writer and your last name is Wright.
Pete
And I know something. It's kind of a curse.
Matthew
Yeah, well — curse or blessing, you tell us. Anyway, folks, thank you so much.