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Fellow Heirs is a podcast for Christians.
Hey, everyone. Isaac here. Before we begin today's episode, I do have a quick warning. Today, we're going to be talking about depression, anxiety, and suicide. If you're struggling with thoughts of self harm or suicide, please reach out for help right now.
Isaac:Your life does have value because you are made in the image of God, and there is real hope in the gospel. You are not alone. Please contact a pastor, elder, deacon, family member, or close friend. Before starting, I'll also mention Psalm 34. The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
Isaac:Now let's get into the episode. What'd you do today, Jason? Worked. Let me fix that for you.
Nick:Did the ujj.
Isaac:The ujj. Your collar's blue, but your neck is red.
Jason:My what's blue? Your collar's blue, but your neck is red. Is my neck red? Why is
Nick:my neck It's a song. My god. My collar's blue, but my neck is red. I don't even know that song. I don't even know.
Nick:Boom working like a dog just to keep my family fed. Keep going. Can't anymore. Living off energy drinks and Marlboro Reds.
Jason:This will be our intro for the
Nick:This gas station food's gonna cause my death.
Isaac:No. That will not be the intro.
Nick:So what'd you have for breakfast this morning, Jason?
Jason:I did not eat breakfast. I don't eat breakfast. That's right. You're one meal guy. I'm a one meal guy.
Jason:I forgot. Yeah. Usually.
Nick:What's your one meal?
Jason:Usually dinner. Just whatever your wife is. Whatever we yeah. Whatever we have.
Nick:You don't snack? You've got all kinds of snacks in your garage.
Jason:Occasionally. Yeah. I don't eat those.
Nick:You say that as if they're just don't eat I
Isaac:don't eat
Jason:those. No. If they're Nutter Butters, I'll eat those. Oh. Oh, that's my
Nick:peanut You said this last time.
Jason:Yeah. And we didn't bring
Nick:him Nutter We did not bring him Nutter You're an awful host.
Jason:Reese's Pieces, not Reese's Pieces. Oh. Reese's Pieces.
Isaac:What's the difference? Oh, I'm an idiot. There's a difference. Wait. They're the same thing.
Isaac:You're just saying the pronunciation steps.
Jason:What's the difference?
Isaac:I thought you were saying, like, you don't like Reese's Alright. I get you. Whatever.
Jason:You you caught up. So, do you call it? Reese's Pieces.
Isaac:I wouldn't call it that. It's Reese's Pieces. Yeah. It's Reese's Pieces. Reese's Pieces.
Nick:It's one of those things where, like, the culture takes over. You know?
Jason:It's So if your cup shatters into a million pieces, that's what you guys say, look at all the pieces on the ground.
Nick:I don't
Jason:think that sounds right.
Nick:Dang. Is it raining?
Jason:It's pouring. Whose windows are down?
Nick:Yeah. I think it's just funny thing about Reese's PC is a pieces, though. I'll do it for you, Jason. Is that did you know in did you ever see ET when you were a kid? So when that movie was being made, it's either the studio or Steven Spielberg came to I think it was M and M's and said, hey, we're having an alien movie.
Nick:We want candy to be one of the central parts of the movie, like, why this alien is drawn to a specific, you know, as like a breadcrumb trail. Yeah. And so they came to M and M's, and M and M said no because ET looked too scary, and they thought it would deter people from buying M and M's.
Jason:No way.
Nick:So they went to Reese's Pieces instead. That's that's wild. And the the, like, sales of
Jason:Oh, yeah. That's what took off. Candy on the market.
Nick:Oh, yeah.
Jason:Like, that's that's pretty crazy.
Nick:You watch that movie, and you're like, man, I want some Reese's Pieces.
Isaac:Yep. That's funny. It's interesting. I
Nick:did not
Jason:know that.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool. But we can begin. Awesome.
Nick:Isaac, you good? Yeah. You good? You wanna pray for us real quick, and then we can introduce Jason?
Isaac:Sure thing. Dear Lord, I thank you that we get to sit down and speak with Jason tonight, and I thank you for his time that he's giving us tonight. And I I pray that we have a fruitful and productive conversation about a very serious topic. In your name, I pray. Amen.
Nick:Amen. It is pouring outside. If you guys look at the window, it's just white. Woah.
Jason:Isn't that crazy? Yeah. It's pouring. Wow. It's crazy.
Nick:So, Jason Brower, thank you for joining us.
Isaac:You're gonna do our intro.
Nick:Fellow Yes. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fellow Heirs. This is a podcast for Christians. My name is Nick. I'm hosted by I'm I'm cohosted with Isaac.
Nick:Hello, listeners. Isaac. And then we have Caleb Sandy here as well, the one, the only. Hello, everyone. Thanks, Caleb.
Nick:And today, we have joining us Jason Brower. Do you go by doctor?
Jason:Not preferably.
Nick:I was gonna say, you don't seem like someone who who wants that title. No. Not that you don't want the title, but you don't want somebody to refer you that way.
Jason:That's not my preference. Yes. Makes sense.
Isaac:If you Google him though, it says Jason Brower, PhD? PhD.
Jason:It is. Yeah. So, you're a
Nick:well studied man, and we've had you on before. Mhmm. Could you just briefly introduce yourself?
Jason:Sure. Jason Brower. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist. Graduated in 2010 from the University of Toledo Graduate School in Clinical Psychology. I co own a local private practice.
Jason:It's a Christian based counseling, private practice with three other people, one other owner, and two other clinicians that work together, all providing faith based counseling in Northwest Ohio.
Nick:Yeah. Praise God. Praise God. And you also help lead New Life, which is the young adult ministry here at Christ the Word, and I know Jacob, our fearless leader, has described you as a very helpful asset to the team. Oh, that's kind.
Nick:So we we get to see you frequently, which is nice. Jason's often the guy who will clear the mud in a conversation. Would you say that's true?
Isaac:Yeah. Jason Jason sits on the outside of a lot of circles. He doesn't like to be the center of attention, but he'll step in every once in a while and just light him up.
Nick:We'll all be yapping about a problem we wanna try to solve, and we don't really know what we're doing, and then Jason will step in and be like, why don't we just do this? And then everybody's kinda like, Yeah. That's a good idea. Yeah. So you're very helpful.
Isaac:Oh, thank you.
Nick:And but today, we're gonna be talking about depression and anxiety. And this is something that I'd say is a pretty a pretty big topic nowadays. I I don't know. I guess I'm assuming, but I feel like it's the the a reality that this is in many ways due to our social media culture, people living life online. Not a lot of people have you know, there's like a huge epidemic with men and loneliness, not having connections.
Nick:There's a lot of people who are separate in terms of not having a community, not having relationships, not building strong relationships with with either the same sex or with people in general, which leads to depression and anxiety. And comparison's a big thing. A lot of
Isaac:Oh, yeah.
Nick:Young girls online comparing themselves with other women, or it can just be us in general. Like, you look at somebody who has, like, a perfect perfect page, perfect social media presence Mhmm. And you automatically feel inadequate. Why isn't my life like that? And, anyway, that's one thing.
Nick:I know there's all kinds of other causes for depression and anxiety, but I think it's particularly big nowadays due to the Internet. Yeah. Would you say that's true?
Jason:Oh, yeah. I think, the comparison piece is pretty important. When you look at the research on Depression and Anxiety, it is raising exponentially. I think there's a few factors. I think the Internet and social media in general is a factor with that.
Jason:I think that it's pretty correlational, but it's likely gonna be deemed pretty causal when you look at the amount of time people are on the Internet, especially social media.
Nick:Yeah.
Jason:As that time increases, their depression and anxiety rates increase likewise. A couple things about the comparison part is you're right, you're comparing all your life, your daily whatever Wednesday to someone else's highlight reel, and there's always going to be someone who's on vacation in some whatever tropical land, and it looks beautiful, we assume that everyone else is. But when you look at the impact of comparison, one of the neat studies that I've always referenced is, when you look at the Olympics, and at the end of every event, they have three awards. Right? Right.
Jason:Gold, silver, bronze. At the end of the event, who's the happiest of the three? Obviously, gold. Gold. Yeah.
Jason:But what's what's odd is the least happy is actually silver
Nick:Right.
Jason:Not bronze.
Nick:I remember you mentioning this last time, and I was so hung up on which one it was. But yes. And why is it silver?
Jason:Because they are comparing themselves upwards and not comparing themselves down.
Nick:Right.
Jason:So there because there's always gonna be someone who's more attractive, makes more money, has a bigger house, whose kids are better behaved, whatever you're comparing your life to. Yeah. So the comparison gets in the way. When you're bronze and you are this close to not being up on that The podium. The podium.
Jason:Yeah. Yeah. You just appreciate what you have.
Nick:Yeah. That makes sense. We should also Oh, go ahead. Sorry, Jace.
Jason:No. Go for it.
Nick:I was just gonna say we should also clarify there might be some overlap with the conversation we had with Jason on AI chatbot usage, which was recorded back in February, I think. It's one of our earlier episodes of the season. I think it's our it's our first one?
Isaac:No. I don't think so. Okay. It was early, though.
Nick:But there might be some overlap, but still will be helpful. And if you haven't listened to that episode, please check
Isaac:it out. It's very Jason was great with talking about AI usage and what our boundaries should look like. Yes. And also, we've already we've already, like five times in this episode, said depression and anxiety. So, I wanted to ask a doctor if depression and anxiety are the same thing, or are they viewed as different, or why are they always lumped together?
Jason:They're distinctly different, but often found what we call comorbid, happening side by side. It's kind of like high blood pressure and obesity. Like, they can each be their own thing, but there's oftentimes, more often than not, they're found kind of interrelated or together. So, When we're talking about depression, we're talking about from a clinical psychologist, we need to categorize these things to help us organize our thoughts. It also helps with dictating care.
Jason:If I see a client who's been with another clinician or who just moved here, and I can look at their chart and quickly see depression, now I know depression looks different for everyone, but I have a general idea of what some of the struggles are that they're going through, and same thing with anxiety. Depression would be things like sad, morose. In men, it's more irritability and agitation. Things like what we call anhedonia, which is loss of joy in typically joyful things. Like you think of Eeyore in Winnie the Pooh, he's like, Oh, bother.
Jason:That's like melancholy in Anhedonia. He'll do the activities, but he's not finding any joy in it. Yeah. Anxiety is more of a state of fight or flight. There is a fear, there's some sort of threat that you're registering.
Jason:Now, in both of these situations, now this is to circle back to why some of this is driving The incidence rates of these disorders are driving up, is we live in a culture now that doesn't really allow for us to struggle. We can't be sad anymore. Everyone's depressed. If we can't be anxious or fearful, everyone's got anxiety. When from a clinical standpoint, those emotions are inherently not evil or bad.
Jason:Healthy people get depressed at times when the situation or the life circumstance warrant it. We would diagnose the depression and anxiety when the duration or intensity is in excess. We're either fearful when we shouldn't be fearful, we are depressed or sad when we shouldn't be depressed, or there was maybe something that led us to be fearful and depressed, but it's so intense, or it lasts so much longer than would be expected.
Nick:Which how long would you say is long enough?
Jason:Six months. That so it's pretty clear when we have The DSM-five is our diagnostic and statistical manual, which is how we take all of the symptoms and help organize and categorize it. There are some pretty clear definitive factors. For a major depressive disorder diagnosis or a generalized anxiety disorder diagnosis, major depressive would be feeling sad more days than not for over six months. Wow.
Jason:So there are some pretty clear cutoffs. Now, if someone comes in and it's been four and a half months, we're not like, Yep. Good luck for a month and a half. See you later. There are other disorders that we would temporarily put on just to help us understand what's going on, and we can provide some assistance and help.
Nick:I'm curious, have you ever experienced depression or anxiety yourself?
Jason:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's when you look at the stats, about sixty percent of us will experience some sort of mental health disorder at some point in our life. At any given moment, it's about the research kind of fluctuates on it. It's about ten to fifteen percent at every given moment, depending like during COVID and that, it went up to twenty to twenty five percent.
Nick:Wow.
Jason:But sixty percent of us will meet diagnostic criteria.
Isaac:Depression usually a result of a life event, or can depression and anxiety just appear out of nowhere?
Nick:Yeah, like what causes it usually?
Jason:There's a number of different causes. We like to and so this is where the debate starts to get into whether it's a spiritual issue or not. Right. Because there are some individuals, especially in conservative Christian circles, that think that the mental health disorders are entirely spiritual issues, and this leads us to have to pray it away, or if we were more devout Christians or more theologically sound that we shouldn't be struggling with this. I just think that that's erroneous.
Jason:I think that that can be risky and dangerous when we use that kind of framework to kind of cut out some of the other explanations, because I think that there's good biblical evidence that we are of mind, body, and spirit. We're not just spirit and theological, and it's the there there there is a body part that's also impacted ultimately by the fall. So
Nick:What would you say? What kind of scripture do you think of?
Jason:I think it's what? Romans eight? It talks about the futility of creation and all of creation is groaning. Yeah. Are you pulling it up, Isaac?
Jason:No. Okay. So I thought So, like like, that would be a great one to kinda go to and Sure. Read through is, I think it's Roman eight Romans eight starting in like 17 or 18. Okay.
Jason:Caleb began it. Awesome.
Nick:Go ahead.
Jason:We'll start in verse 20.
Caleb:What's 20?
Jason:Start in verse 20.
Caleb:For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope, That the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves having the first fruits of the spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he already sees. But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance, we wait eagerly for it.
Jason:Yes. That's helpful. Yeah. So I think, like, the fall didn't just affect our choices. It's not that we make sinful choices and it's the impact of the fall.
Jason:I think the impact of the fall is everything.
Nick:Yeah.
Jason:I mean, if you think about it, I don't think there was diabetes or asthma in the garden. I think those are consequence of physiologically, have an impact of sin, and that is causing a deterioration over time. Right. And some of that deterioration is going to affect the way that we think or the way that we feel.
Nick:Which I I think it makes logical sense too. It's like, okay. If we do have bodily defects like asthma or diabetes, then you would be logically, like, following that, we would also include our brains too. Yeah. Yep.
Nick:It's not like our brains are unaffected by the fall, obviously. I think all of us here have had thoughts that are wicked and sinful. Sure. And
Jason:I would even argue that when our brains are when we're not trying to capture our thoughts, there is a natural drift for our brain to inevitably tend to favor the side of sin.
Nick:Wait. What do you mean?
Jason:I just think there's a in Hebrews, it warns us of drifting. When we are not capturing our thoughts and being very diligent and intentional with them, they naturally become very selfish, very wicked, very quickly. To kind of circle back to the original question, if I've ever experienced that, yeah, I've had a significant probably season of my life that I was not tending to my thoughts very well, and it just turned I mean, it it it can turn pretty dark pretty quick.
Isaac:Yeah. So Yeah. Makes sense. It's something really like, I wanna definitely unpack a little more just the medical side of this topic, and then the spiritual side of this topic, because what you just said about not guarding your thoughts, and that led to depression, that more sounds spiritual, but I know there's also Mhmm. Like, I've heard of what what did you say earlier, Nick?
Nick:Like, Oh, chemical imbalance in your brain. Yeah. But I've also heard of pastors, like we said before we started recording, but pastors dealing with long bits of I don't know. Bouts is the right word, but of of depression Yeah. Because of their care for the flock and the the weight of the the sheep, the weight of the people they're leading on them, their sin, their their problems, what they're dealing with.
Nick:And so, yeah, it's not like we're immune from it, but, yeah, it's tough to determine, okay, when when does it become a medical versus a spiritual? Yeah. I think because, obviously, Satan can use it. Mhmm. He can attack us, and our own flesh can use it for, you know
Jason:Yeah.
Nick:It's sin. Sin is in it no matter what. Even if it is a medical thing, I still think that's gonna be sin too, like mixed in.
Jason:Yeah. I agree. If you track it back, it all goes back to original sin and the impact Okay. That that
Nick:Yeah. That's yeah. That's great.
Jason:Have you guys had any personal experience or close experience with depression and anxiety? Don't all speak at the same time. Yes.
Nick:I mean okay. You asked to Jason, so you have to be willing to answer that Sure. Question Sure. When I was in high school, I'm sure I thought I was depressed, but looking back on it, I'm like, I was just an idiot. I mean, I don't know.
Nick:Maybe
Isaac:Oh, so people with depression are idiots.
Nick:Stop. That's not what I'm saying.
Jason:Well, can I I'll reflect back on? I can I agree? Looking back at where I was when I was struggling with depression and anxiety, the thoughts so are so foreign to me now, it feels
Nick:Yes. Yeah. Well, that's what I
Jason:was gonna amusing.
Nick:I loved the way that you said, like, you give in to those thoughts, and those will just keep going.
Jason:Mhmm.
Nick:Because I think if I look back at my life and I see when I I'm just thinking of not necessarily depression, but I'm just thinking of when I was having evil thoughts that I should have been thinking. Honestly, a thought that I would have is self destruction. Oh, I just wanna die right now. Yeah. I want somebody to hit me with a car.
Nick:I wanna get out of this scenario right now. I hate myself. I don't want anything to do with myself, But it's actually
Isaac:That sounds depressed.
Nick:Well, okay. Maybe it was, but, like, I look back on it, I'm like, I was just extremely selfish. I was only thinking about myself. I was only thinking about because what you said about the thoughts is like, yeah, that was exactly me. I kept thinking those things, and so therefore, it kept driving me I kept driving myself further and further into it.
Nick:But it was it was sin. I mean Yeah. I don't know. What
Isaac:Yeah. Well, I would say when I have had thoughts like that, it's been in relation to my sin. Like, just getting depressed over not being able to Yes. Be sin, or sins that I've had in my past.
Nick:Right.
Isaac:And so, it's definitely related to sin. I wouldn't say it's been for six months straight ever.
Nick:That's what I was gonna say. I don't think mine lasts over that long either.
Isaac:Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, thoughts, yeah, maybe on and off, but I don't think I went I mean, I'm I'm a happy guy normally, so I don't think I went six months with or maybe even three months with having those kinds of thoughts, but
Jason:Well, and that's what would distinguish us from saying you didn't have depression, but you were in despair at times, and just because you're having these feelings of despair, doesn't mean we would be diagnosed as clinically depressed.
Nick:Mhmm.
Jason:So there is kind of a separation to be made. I do think our culture doesn't like I mean, culture kind of we're in the culture of everyone's kind of a victim to Yeah. Ultimately, I I I could go on a a side tangent just because I think that our culture there's there's there's processes in our culture that wants everyone to be ill, and they want to have the solution to it, which is medication. I think the more we can convince individuals that they are unhealthy, that means the more we can convince them that they need treatment, and that's big business. It's like billions of dollars a year.
Jason:40 billions of dollars a year, I think is the last estimate that I saw, is how much people spend on depression and anxiety and mental health treatment
Nick:each year. Does that include therapy? I think of BetterHelp. I mean, how many times have you guys heard of BetterHelp ad?
Isaac:Yeah. On YouTube? Yeah.
Nick:All the time. Yeah.
Jason:I would guess it would include any kind of treatment and not just medicinal. Yeah. So, I would guess it includes that. Yeah. I'm not positive though.
Jason:So, there is a great book, by Doctor. Martin Lloyd Jones, who is a pastor from the 1900s, 60s, 70s, I think he passed in 1980s, called Spiritual Depression. I'm not going to quote it perfectly, but he essentially talks about the interaction between mind, body, and spirit. And he uses the phrase that we should listen to ourselves less and talk to ourselves more. What he illustrates is that if you aren't paying attention and you're not capturing your thoughts, our thoughts tend to go down to being pretty prideful, pretty selfish, pretty sinful.
Jason:But he encouraged a process of being very intentional to identify those thoughts and then replace them with, which is cognitive behavioral therapy, replacing them with thoughts that scripturally we would find our peace and joy in the character of God. When focusing on the character of God and not on your situation, all of a sudden the emotional outcome with that
Nick:Oh, yeah. Is different. Yeah. Because just like what I said with my thinking those sinful thoughts, when you stop looking inward and you look outward to God and how much he's blessed you Mhmm. You're yeah.
Nick:I mean, I think we mentioned this last time, but a big way that people can fight depression is just by going out and serving somebody. Like, doing something for a group of people serving at a local kitchen or whatever. Because it forces you to think about other people. And if anything, I hope people take one encouragement to take away is, stop thinking about yourself. Like, look look to the people around you.
Nick:Look to God. God's blessed you immensely. You can if you can breathe and look around and
Jason:Yeah.
Nick:You can eat, you can smell the air, you can hear the birds singing. Like, the yeah. The habit of looking inward and looking inward and looking inward, it's just like, of course, would lead to self destruction.
Isaac:Yeah. You know what
Nick:I'm saying? Because we're we're never gonna fulfill ourselves. We're so fallen and wicked, but
Isaac:And yet that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who has depression or bouts of depression is just that's that's a result of looking inward and being selfish.
Nick:Yeah. It could be something else that, yeah, caused it.
Jason:Yeah. When you think of the big three interactions when we're talking about it, we're talking about what? Genetics and brain chemistry. We're talking about, like, the situation or circumstance, and then we're talking about faith. If we try to separate them, that's the false dichotomy where we're wrestling.
Jason:Is it in our head and is it a spiritual issue that we just need to pray away? Could it be or is it something that's physiological? The answer is yes. It can be both, and it's going to be different for each individual. There are ways to start to determine if the cause or the root issue is likely more genetic than say a spiritual issue.
Jason:Now, would never say that it's only genetic or it's only I mean, it could be a spiritual issue. I'll be honest, if you're engaged in unrepentant sin or unforgiveness or some degree of idolatry, yeah, you're going to start to feel the consequences of that. Yeah. Wouldn't But say that it's necessarily ever solely genetic.
Nick:That makes sense. You with people who are like, say somebody who is a Christian comes to you, you still abide by that same six month rule and say it's twelve months, but they're I don't know, they seem to be thinking correctly about it in terms of spiritually. Would you still be like, Well, I don't know. Guess what would you think about that if it was somebody who was Christian?
Jason:In what sense? Like it's not a spiritual issue?
Nick:If they came to you and were like, I've been depressed six months, but they were a Christian, I guess, you think about it differently? Because you have that same foundational of like a faith of like the faith.
Jason:Well, I don't necessarily change the way I think of the presenting issue whether they're a Christian or not. Now from a Christian perspective, if they are Christian, I will use certain biblical terms.
Nick:Yeah.
Jason:But at the core, I'm not going to promote, encourage, affirm anything that's not biblical. There's not a single biblical principle that when you don't apply it to your life does not improve your life. So from a standpoint of counseling, that's where the evidence lies. I'm going to provide the evidence. Now that would probably be one of the big distinguishing factors between a Christian counselor and a non Christian counselor is the focus of a Christian counselor is to treat the struggle, whatever that struggle is, with the primary goal of I want to focus on holiness.
Jason:Want to get rid of sin. Want to focus on God our creator. Now, there are some people who are not Christian and I'm not going to Bible thump them, but I'm going to incorporate these principles and inevitably in our conversations it comes up about me being Christian. I'll share, Well, as a Christian, this is what I would think.
Nick:It
Jason:is cool to see that process happen because there's been clients that I've had for ten years now that if you would have told me ten years ago that they'd be going to church, I would think you were just, yeah, crazy. They're bringing their Bibles in to show me now in the sessions because they're so excited about what they're reading and where God's taken them. The key difference for a non Christian counselor is their primary goal is your happiness. They're focused on what is going to make you happy right now. The error is if we focus on our happiness, we do not build holiness, but if you focus on your holiness, there is happiness.
Isaac:So, if you focus only on your happiness, then it's still a self centered way of thinking, which is part of the cause of depression. Absolutely. So, is that what you're taught? You didn't go to a Christian grad school for psychology. You were literally taught to just make your client just feel happy, no matter however you get there.
Jason:Yes. It is extremely secular. It's interesting, so I'm not sure, you know, I have a son, Caleb, who's a senior in college who's studying psychology, had all his plans to go to graduate school for clinical psychology. He did an internship at our office over the summer, it went fantastic, but through that process, God has revealed to him that he's not called to go into clinical count or a PhD in psychology because of just how secular that is. Wow.
Jason:So he's leaning more towards getting a counseling degree, but then also likely a master's in divinity, so that he can learn the skills. When I was taught, it was all secular. You're meeting the needs of the client, and you need to know what their values are and get them to what makes them happy within those values. That is not something that I'm comfortable doing with a Christian if their values are sinful, and I've had to learn that after. Through my own practice and through my mentor who I'm in practice with, She's a Christian as well, so we've had to learn that after the fact.
Nick:Fascinating. Pretty well. Yeah. When we think about people in our lives who are like other Christians who are struggling with depression or anxiety. What's the so say you had a friend, close friend, who they're kind of like two or three months, they're depressed, they're anxious.
Nick:What's what would you say should the process be? Where should they go first? And then as things continue, does that make sense? Like, pastorate, psychologist?
Jason:Okay.
Nick:We kinda touched on this when we recorded with you earlier, but I think it'd good to repeat.
Jason:Yeah. I know that was a previous question about when would I recommend seeing a counselor versus a pastor? Pastor.
Nick:Yeah. Exactly.
Jason:So it's really interesting. Think counselors and pastors should be working closely together and knowing their roles and their scope really. If you had to simplify it, I would say one way think about it is if it's a question of meaning, why or how do I live faithfully through this? That's a wonderful thing for a pastor to support their congregation on. If a question not on meaning, but more on mechanism, like what's going on in the brain, I know the truth, but I'm struggling to execute it, follow it, hold tight to it, and I have these barriers, and I keep having these relapses, or what like, that's where you would probably find more benefit in seeking counseling from a counselor.
Jason:Yeah. So But I do think that there are many times in my sessions where I don't have a Master's in Divinity. I mean, I study the Bible, but there are times where clients are asking me what I would recommend, and some of it I punt it back to their pastor. I'm like, that's something. That's a great question to lean into your pastor about and to kind of seek counsel.
Jason:I think this is also the importance of just having mentors, connections, life groups. I mean, is the whole community of the church is to rally around and support. Right.
Nick:Yeah. What do you think that we get wrong when we try to comfort somebody with depression or anxiety? Like, what's the wrong approach? I guess, because a lot of times, think I think even myself, like, I would like to make the situation happier. Like, oh, just like.
Nick:Life's great. Yeah. You don't need to be upset.
Isaac:To flush that out more, to flush that question out more, I think there's a lot of people in the church that maybe just don't realize the reality of depression Yeah. To the point where the ants will be like, Oh, well, you just need to have hope. Or just
Nick:have joy.
Isaac:Just have joy. Like Yeah. So,
Jason:you guys seen that happen? Mean, because you guys are both in some degree of leadership positions in new life, and do you guys see that happen a lot?
Isaac:I have.
Jason:I don't
Nick:think I have, but I think I've I like, that would be my response to some people, and I because I've needed somebody to tell me that even though I'm, like, understand. I mean, I'm not depressed when somebody's told me that. Many times in my life, I've needed somebody to just say, well, okay, but you need to just have hope, or you need to just have joy. And that's worked for me, and that's the encouragement I've gotten. I haven't seen that much, but I I feel like that's an assumption that I have Yeah.
Nick:That's happened.
Isaac:Yeah. If I've been having depressed thoughts, I'll think, like, okay, I know the answer right now is to have joy or have hope. Like, I know that's the answer, and yet that doesn't make the depressed thoughts go away. So, it's not black and white. There's something deeper there.
Nick:Mhmm.
Isaac:What is that?
Jason:Good question. I think that you hit the nail on the head. I think the biggest error almost all of us make is rushing to fix. Rush to scripture. We want a quote.
Jason:Want we want and most of that's driven by our own, I'll say selfish, but our own it's a good motivation. We want to help the person, but most of us are anxious because we are worried that we need to help them and fix them, or fix the situation or improve it. A lot of us rush to It's a degree of sympathy instead of empathy. Now, I'm not sure if we talked about this on the last podcast or not, but the difference between sympathy and empathy is sympathy, you know that they're in a sad state or depressed state and you kind of like silver line it. It's like, Yeah, but God's got this and God's sovereign and we just need to pray some more and whatnot.
Jason:The sovereignty of God response is probably the most weaponized response by Christians unintentionally because it absolutely shuts down conversation. Because then it communicates to them that this is a spiritual issue and you have a less mature type of faith. And if you were just a better Christian, you wouldn't be struggling with that. And I would argue that that's not biblical at all. Like you read through Elijah, and we can talk about the Elijah story if you want, like David, and you read through the Psalms.
Jason:Like a third of the Psalms are laments. Like they are in deep despair. It's not a lesser form of faith. So what empathy looks like instead is the analogy that I use is like, okay, when someone's in a dark room, sitting on the couch and in complete despair about how dark it is, empathy is walking into the room and sitting down with them and saying, Yeah, it's pretty dark. Sympathy is like, Yeah, it's dark.
Jason:There's a light switch over here. You can just turn it on. It's bright now. That's overwhelming for them, and it invalidates their whole experience. There is something sanctifying about being in
Nick:the
Jason:Saturday moment. What I mean by that is from Good Friday to Sunday, when we're in Good Friday and something bad in our life happens, we try to rush to the Sunday theology, and there's something sanctifying to just be with someone in their Saturday moment. Saturday, after Good Friday happened, was probably devastating for them. There was no clear outcome. They were sad.
Jason:They lost their savior. Their minds were probably turned in knots about all the things he said, and they had no idea how this was going to look. If we're not careful, we quickly rush them through that moment to hopefully get to the Sunday moment of theology, and they're just not ready for that. So we have to be more patient for that. Now, some people want hope immediately, but some people it can take days, weeks, months.
Jason:I think that's the delicacy of being able to kind of help someone walk through their struggles, whether it be depression or anxiety, is to just let them lead the pace. Yes, you can sprinkle in truth, if they fight you on it or if there's a little bit of resistance, it's just not the right time. So it's to be able to be present with them in the yuck and not try to fix it.
Nick:Which I don't I mean, I don't know if you guys would Isaac, you would say about this, but I'm sure you've experienced this, Jason, but, like, having people I don't think I've ever been actually depressed, but there have been hard things that have happened in my life. And having people there who just are there and are not necessarily looking to fix you Mhmm. Or to make everything happy, because everything's happy, which I don't think is a biblical way to go about things either, but, you know, because obviously Jesus himself was sad and wept, and there were times where he was
Jason:very Yeah.
Isaac:What'd he say? It's better to be in a house of mourning Than
Nick:a house of full joy? I don't Feast. Don't Look that one up, Caleb, please. We're gonna need help. Fact.
Nick:But anyway, I just mean to say, like man, lost my train of thought. What was I saying? Gosh, Isaac, you derailed me.
Isaac:I don't know what was up there, man.
Nick:My bad. I'm gone. Anyway, you were saying,
Jason:I do think though that this idea that Christians shouldn't struggle is not biblical. Oh. And I would argue. Go ahead.
Nick:Sorry. Just remembered what I
Jason:was saying.
Nick:Yeah. Just having somebody there for you Yeah. Is impactful. Like, what you said about empathy. Like, being with that person in that moment, that shows true love and friendship Mhmm.
Nick:And it stays with you because they don't want to just fix the situation or act like everything's okay and everything's happy. But they're there for you, and they communicate that by just being there and listening. It's honestly, you do this a lot in marriage. Like, you're just Yeah. You're there for the person and you receive it.
Nick:Yeah. And I think as a husband, like, I've had to learn, okay. I don't need to just, like, solve every problem immediately. I actually need to just take it and just sit and relax for a second.
Isaac:I was about to say that. Like, everything you're saying reminds me of the age old problem of men trying to just fix the problem when the wife just wants you to listen to her.
Nick:Yeah.
Jason:Right. It is really interesting, so here's where we'll go, psychology behind that communication. Men communicate very differently than women do. Men are usually problem solvers and information chairs. If you just listen to men talk, they are telling each other information back and forth.
Jason:Then when one's done, the other one's like, Oh yeah? This also happened to me. Just kind of do Here's some more information. Yeah. Women don't share information.
Jason:They tend to share experiences. It's like, This happened to me, and they're like, Oh my goodness, that's so sad.
Nick:That is What crazy that you say that because it just makes me think of all the conversations I've heard about women when they talk about giving birth. My wife has talked with other wives about people, and it's like, as soon as they have their first baby or second baby or whatever, it's like they just wanna talk to another woman about how it went. Know what I'm saying?
Isaac:Whereas, our skits are like, heavy? Nice. Anyways. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Nick:That's funny. But experiences.
Jason:Yeah. That's interesting. And so, the empathy part is just connecting with that. It's not, you're not a good husband if you fix it. You're a good husband if you sit in it.
Jason:A lot of times, because we're information sharers, we want to understand it more. Empathy is more about understanding that someone is feeling something, not why they're feeling it. Because men really get stuck. If I don't understand why my wife is feeling a certain way or why this person then if I don't agree with it, then I can't have empathy for it. The agreement part is not necessary.
Jason:It is just to know that she's overwhelmed, she's sad, she feels hurt, she whatever it is, you don't have to agree that you would feel the same way. It's just understanding what they're feeling.
Nick:That's real. Question off of that is, do you deal more so with women than men
Jason:in your practice? It's probably fifty fifty.
Nick:Seriously?
Jason:Well, it's probably fiftyfifty. More women seek counseling than men, but more men seek counselors than are men.
Nick:Interesting.
Jason:So I do think there's a draw because most clinicians are female. Yeah. So, there's not as many clinicians who are men. So, with me being a male clinician, there's a lot
Isaac:more Your ratios are different.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Why does that surprise you, Nick? I just think that just strikes me, like, when I was growing up and in high school, seemed like all the girls were depressed. Seemed that most of the girls were depressed.
Isaac:I think I've heard that more men are depressed.
Nick:I think that's when you think of that is I could be wrong, but I feel like that's, like, later on in life. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Sure. Whereas, like, I'm just thinking of, like, social media and the comparison thing and, like, all that all that area of of struggle with with women, and in that's my experience, though.
Nick:But I think it is true. Like, Isn't it the case that most men are the ones who are committing suicide?
Jason:Yeah. It's really interesting. The data on that is just interesting, and it's all a little bit skewed because when you look at traditional depression and anxiety, a lot of men are not diagnosed because for most men, depression looks like anger. They're not in bed all day. They wouldn't even identify being sad.
Jason:They're just really irritable, and they think that life is unfair. That part gets missed a lot. They're also not seeking treatment very often as readily. Now, I think the stats are now you'd have to correct me on this if I'm wrong. I think the stats are more women attempt suicide, but more men commit suicide because men are unfortunately better at it.
Jason:They are going to attempt suicide typically with firearms and hanging, which is way more efficient than overdosing and cutting.
Isaac:Really?
Jason:Yeah. It's so I think that's where some of that disconnect is.
Nick:I'm just thinking also of I know this is a heavy topic. I'm not trying to be light about it. But thinking biblically about suicide, the first person I think of is Judas, and you compare him a lot of times in studying the Bible, you think of him versus Peter. Mhmm. And you see how Peter is an example of repentance Mhmm.
Nick:And Judas is an example of unrepentance. And see just what we've been talking about, which is looking inward, looking inward, looking inward. And one of them, Jesus receives back with joy, and and he has a redemption arc. You know, he's got he denies Jesus three times, but then he's at the beach with Jesus, and Jesus asked him three times, do you do you love me? And then you've got Judas who betrays the son of God and just goes straight to taking his own life.
Jason:Mhmm.
Nick:Anyway, I'm just thinking of the the constant looking inward. But at the same time, like you said, Isaac, there's things that happen that that we need other people for. Yeah. We need counselors for. We need and that's what we haven't touched on yet, but I do wanna talk about is medication.
Nick:Okay. So at what point do you say this person might need medication?
Jason:So there are some factors that we can look at to see if this is more of a genetic biological issue or a psychological or theological issue. Some signs that we look for that would indicate medication or essentially that it's a neurochemistry problem is family history would be one. So if it runs in the family and it happens, and usually you see this in younger kids, so their depression and anxiety start happening at, I mean, as young as six, seven, eight, even four. I mean, we have a couple of four year olds in there, which is like, you can imagine that they couldn't be depressed, but when you look at the symptoms, I mean, comes out more as irritability or temper tantrums. But, when you see such a significant family history, we would suggest that it would probably be more neurological and more the neurochemistry.
Jason:I'll be honest, other things that really impacted are thyroid issues, pregnancies significantly postpartum.
Nick:Yeah.
Jason:There are a lot of hormonal issues that happen, and that's where it is going to impact the brain chemistry.
Isaac:Thyroid is like a gland that's affected by pregnancy?
Jason:That was separate, but it can be affected by pregnancy. Thyroid is part of the endocrine system, which releases hormones. Where's your thyroid? It is at the base of your brain.
Isaac:Oh, it's in your head?
Jason:Yeah. It's kind of near the neckline, I think.
Nick:What are the what's here? Lymphs. Okay. Your lymph nodes.
Jason:My bad. Nodes. I'm thinking
Nick:of that.
Isaac:Is there such thing as getting hit in the thyroid and then that causes depression? No.
Jason:That's the thyroid is such a it is like at the center of the brain. So, it would have to like,
Isaac:yeah. Yeah.
Jason:That it's protected by a lot. So that's it's nearly impossible. You you would have more significant concerns if something hit that because it would have to hit a lot of other things. Yeah. So but he here's the interesting thing.
Jason:Like, these are not separate ideas. Your brain chemistry and your experiences change each other. If we look at brain imaging, we can see how chronic grief, anxiety, depression actually change the structure of the brain and how it's functioning. So this is what happens where it's like, Okay, what came first, the chicken or the egg? Was it a brain chemistry issue that's leading to the depression, or are we in a type of depression that's leading to brain chemistry?
Jason:Now, that aspect in the brain senses is what we call neuroplasticity. It actually is awesome because that allows us to learn. Our brain does change and evolve, and this is why counseling and biblical mentorship have such a big impact. Because just as chronic grief or PTSD or depression, anxiety can negatively impact your brain, Persistent prayer, dwelling
Nick:on
Jason:the word of God, meditating on the word of God also has brain chemistry changes that you can see on an MRI. Wow. Wow. So it's pretty cool. So when we're looking at it, if we were looking at some of those, what are some of the triggers?
Jason:Is it right after giving birth? Is it a family history? Things like that. We would also suggest that from our standpoint, we would lean more towards medication if it's incredibly resistant to all treatments. So you've been working with your pastor, you've been working with a counselor, and you're not seeing the benefit, and it's legitimate work, then we would probably have more conversation about maybe this is a neurological issue and we probably have to address it through medicine.
Nick:What about someone who so if somebody's on medication, like, how do you find a balance between becoming dependent on the medication and, like, how do you get them off of it? Like, don't know. I'm just trying to think through if if I was even on this stuff. Like Yeah. Trying to find the balance between relying on the medication.
Isaac:Yeah. Are you just on it forever?
Nick:Right. Are you relying on the medication for help, or do you eventually find almost like a hybrid approach where it's like I don't know. What would you say? Sorry.
Jason:I think each client's different. Obviously, primary goal would be to get off of medication. I'll state, I don't think medication is inherently sinful. I think laziness is sinful. Right.
Jason:And sometimes So think of it this way, if we have high blood pressure or obesity and you could take a medication for it, but you're not going to change your lifestyle, so you're still going to eat horribly, you're still going to be slothly lay on the couch all night, I would say medication would be a sinful approach. Not necessarily the actual taking of the medication, but the Ozempic. Yeah. Right?
Nick:Yeah. Yeah.
Jason:So, like, again, there are some individuals who need high blood pressure medication because we've tried everything else and it's not working.
Isaac:Right.
Jason:So if we apply that same analogy to a depression and anxiety, there are going to be people who have tried everything and they're not getting the impact that they want. We can add medication. Yes, our ultimate goal would be if it can happen and we can safely do it, to wean them off. We would use the medication to get their brain functioning well, and hopefully that that becomes the new means of operation so your brain gets used to functioning well, so then over time we could slowly titrate it off and reduce it. Now, some people, we try that, and their symptoms immediately pop back up.
Jason:So, there are some people who
Isaac:Yeah. Are on What's wrong? Is there a bad side effect to antidepressant medication?
Jason:There are significant side effects to antidepressant medications. This is something that our culture makes antidepressant medications a first round. Yeah. You can go to your PCP, and this is how sad it is, you can go to the PCP and just tell them, I'm having trouble with motivation and I can't get out of bed. You will probably walk out with a prescription.
Jason:That's how quote Without it really knowing the true impact that it has. A lot of it some like annoying side effects that aren't really problematic are dry mouth, headaches, things like that. It can cause irritation, but other side effects are pretty significant. One of the most common side effects is sexual side effects, so libido, lack of sexual response, things like that. Suicidality can increase with that.
Isaac:What's that?
Jason:Thoughts of suicide. So have you They increase?
Nick:They increase after taking antidepressants.
Jason:Yes. They are black labeled.
Isaac:Seems So
Jason:there is a risk more so for kids and young adults, but taking a medication that's supposed to help with depression and anxiety can actually increase thoughts of harming yourself. So those are things that we would have to monitor.
Isaac:Now, this
Jason:is also why I say if you're on medication and you want to try to wean yourself off, do not do that on your own. Like that is not safe because it can kind of throw the system off. I would work very closely with your medical provider to have those conversations and whatnot. Now, the long term impact of antidepressants is, so this kind of gets a little nerdy, how, so you have these neurons which are the cells in your brain. There are electrical impulses within the cell.
Jason:Electricity is great because it's wicked fast. So you can process a ton of information. The problem with electricity is once it's going, it can't stop unless there's a break in the wire essentially. So like once you flip the light switch on, the electricity is going to the light unless you cut the wire. Well, built into the chemistry of the brain is in between each cell is a break.
Jason:One cell ends and the other one gets really close but doesn't touch it. That gap is called a synaptic gap. In that moment, it turns from electrical to chemical. So this is where our neurotransmitters like serotonin, when you take Prozac or that, they're called SSRIs, serotonin specific reuptake inhibitors. Really fancy name.
Jason:But when cell A is firing and wants cell B to hear the message, it releases a bunch of serotonin into that gap. Cell B, tries to suck it up. If it sucks up enough of it, then it's like, yep, I can fire and it's like a gun, pull the trigger. Once there's enough pressure to pull the trigger and they have enough of the neurotransmitter getting there, it fires the message. In the joy and or the happiness and pleasure centers of the brain in depression, those aren't firing enough.
Jason:So what they do is they prevent cell A from absorbing the serotonin it released into that gap back up. So, cell A releases it. Before cell B can absorb enough of it, cell A doesn't want to waste any of it, so it starts to retake it back.
Isaac:But happiness comes from all of that serotonin reaching cell B.
Jason:Yes. What SSRIs do, they don't create more serotonin, they stop that reuptake process, so more serotonin stays in that gap, which then allows the cell more time to absorb it. Long story short, long term use of it, your cell B realizes it doesn't have to be very efficient because it's got so much access to serotonin now, so by taking the medicine, your brain becomes less efficient at using the serotonin. So over time what happens is you need-
Isaac:Increased dosage. You need more,
Jason:yeah, to have that same effect.
Isaac:Eventually if you were to get off it, then you'd be really, really Absolutely,
Jason:Because it is just not used to being very efficient. It never had to it hasn't had to be very efficient, because there's just an abundance of that. And then when that's where we typically have a crash.
Isaac:Yeah. It's tough.
Jason:It getting off the medication can be challenging. So
Nick:But do you think that, like, if I if I'm thinking about this right, let me know if you disagree. But is it like, well, so I wanna, you know, come back to thinking of this as Christians, and it's is the thought process you only get medication if you're bad enough to get the medication? Like, that's an extreme case. You'll get it. That will be something that is an option for you only if, like, nothing else is really working, that's, like, the worst of the worst.
Isaac:You're talking about Christians only?
Nick:Yeah. Well, I think
Isaac:because he was just saying, like, the world jumps to that way too quick.
Nick:Of course. Yeah. So want to think of a Christian perspective. Should people think I don't want people to walk away and think, don't know. Don't want to encourage people to immediately think of medication as the answer.
Jason:I don't either. Okay. Well, and so what would be is it fair to replace depression and anxiety with say, high blood pressure?
Nick:That's what I I had thought If you
Jason:think about that, when would taking, when would, because there's such a negative stigma with mental health. Like, even in the Christian community, like, we don't want to admit we're struggling. We don't want to admit our pastors are struggling. So we there there is this, like, negative stigma about it, especially when it comes to to to the point of taking medication. And it's like, I just think it it's potentially very risky.
Jason:That's what I'm saying. Because of
Nick:how risky it is, like, don't want yeah. I I just I don't want the encouragement to be like, well, if you think you're bad enough, you should consider medication because of the I think you look at it and we know we're sinful people, and so we know we're looking for the easy way out.
Jason:Yeah. So that's where the way we operate in our practices, it's usually the last resort. Yeah. So we are doing counseling, we're doing spiritual mentorship, We work closely with an integrative physician in the area that looks at supplements and does blood work and stuff like that because that's the other factor of genetics is it may not be it may be low iron or some other supplement or complex vitamin B12 or B6. We can supplement it without resorting to medication.
Jason:This is where I don't know where some of the other conservative Christians land on This is the part where it's like, there are probably individuals out there who are like, No, medication they view medication as scripturally sinful, and I would love to have that conversation Because that's not my my training. I don't have a master's in divinity, but from a clinical standpoint, it's like we can see where it has a place at the end as a last resort, not a first option.
Isaac:It's funny because you can't really lump it in with a lot of other spiritual matters or sins because there is a, like, a scientific and medical side to it, but you can't really lump it into a medical side to the to to other medical things because there's a spiritual side of it. Right.
Nick:Yeah. But you're I think it's helpful to think about it in the I think we're kind of talking about all medication really in a way. Like you know what I'm saying? Like
Jason:Yeah. That I think that would be my like, I would love to hear your guys' perspective. Like, is there a difference between medication for mental health versus physical health? Or should we take the same approach whether we're talking about physical health or mental health?
Nick:The first thought I have, honestly, a biblical example is was it king Asa who was diseased in his feet Yeah. Who went to the physicians first before he went to God. And if I remember correctly, that did not go well for him That's correct. Because of his reliance on medicine.
Jason:Yeah.
Nick:Or I think of, like, when I have a headache, like, I just pop an ibuprofen. I don't even think about it. And, I mean, God wants us to come to him with every problem that we have and every single you know, he wants us to come to him and ask him, and talk to him, and it's I'm being king Asa in that example. I'm like, oh, this will fix me. Yeah.
Nick:So, I'm just thinking through I know we're talking about medicine generally, but it is a useful thing. It's not like medicine is I think all of us can look at examples in our life where like, wow, the advancements of the Yeah. Medical field are incredible. Yeah. Or there's people here who I know their lives are saved because of
Isaac:Yeah.
Nick:Medical intervention.
Jason:Yeah. Because if you have I think it gets very risky if you use the spiritual standpoint to cut medicine off to say, okay, well then you can't even have penicillin if you have an infection. Like, oh, that's this is where it gets I agree with you. I think there's a place. I would even think about like like think of Elijah under the Yeah.
Nick:You mentioned that earlier. What are
Jason:you Under the Juniper tree. What was the response? So we're referring to Elijah. I think it's in first Kings 18. You that
Isaac:up, Caleb?
Jason:I might be able to pull
Nick:it up too. He's got his physical bible with him. Very nice move, Jason.
Jason:First Kings 19. Oh, you were close. That was close. Verse four, this is right after he slaughtered all the prophets of Baal, remember? He- Right.
Jason:This is after his prophetic His peak. Yes. So you see how quickly this can change for us, but in verse four he says, But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness and came and sat under a juniper tree, and he requested for himself that he might die and said, 'It is enough now, O Lord. Take my life for I am not better than my father's.' So he goes from an absolute pastoral high to the lowest of lows. Yeah.
Jason:What's God's response? Lay down, slept under a juniper tree, and behold, there was an angel touching him, and he said to him, 'Rise and eat.' God gives him a nap and gives him a snack. So part of this is like-
Nick:Two things men need. Yeah.
Jason:And I'll be honest, sometimes it is a physiological thing. It's not just rushing to theology. Now again, I'm saying theology is a big part of it, we should usually start there, but we also have to realize that the theology is part of the brain, which is also part of the body. We are mind, body, and spirit here, Sometimes we are in despair because we need a nap and a snack, especially men. Yeah.
Jason:So I just think from a biblical standpoint, when we take care of the person, like it gives them a little bit more margin to be able to theologically change their thoughts because it takes just so much energy.
Nick:Well, I love the rest of that passage that says, yeah, an angel touched him and said that well, hold on one second. I wanna switch over. I mean, I always listen to the Bible in ESV because I like that guy's voice more than the n s NASB guy.
Isaac:You know the guy who reads the YouVersion NASB is dead?
Nick:I thought the ESV guy
Isaac:was dead. No. That's the NASB. Yeah. Died in a car wreck.
Isaac:So Wow. So I don't.
Nick:Thank you for that, Isaac. Okay. So it says yeah. An angel touched so there was an angel touching him, he said, arise, eat. And then he looked, and behold, there was at his head a breadcake baked on hot stones and a jar of water.
Nick:So he ate and drank and laid down again. The angel of the Lord came again a second time and touched him and said, arise, eat because this journey is too great for you. So he rose and ate and drank and went in strength went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb, the mountain
Isaac:of God. So He got his swagger back.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah.
Isaac:It's funny. You mentioned that it was right after the great victory with the prophets of Baal, because I'd never put that together. But, I've heard a lot of people who have huge highs in their life, it's coming down from that that causes depression. UFC fighters talk about it, because UFC, it's like a solo sport. You have a whole stadium chanting your name.
Isaac:You have your walkout, your moment of victory. It's one of the most like, glorified a person could be, and they all just have this massive high on fight night. But they talk about, like, the next couple days, like, it's miserable.
Jason:Yeah. That's super interesting. Yeah. Super interesting.
Isaac:They also have, like, broken bones and concussions usually. Yeah. Some of that might contribute. But
Nick:They might not be right in the head after I
Jason:mean, I don't wanna, like taking care of the body is important. I mean, is one of those things. You look at the scientific research, if you address individuals eating, sleeping, exercise, if you address those three, eighty percent report significant reduction in their depression and anxiety symptoms. Woah. And if you typically think about just when you guys or when we are struggling the most, usually we're staying up later, we're scrolling on our phones, we're not eating well, we're not exercising.
Jason:All those things that we do to take care of our temple, we don't have time to do that anymore, and we just kind of waste away, and all of a sudden, our mood kind of decompensates. So it it can be a good it's gonna be an aspect of the healing process to take care of the body Yeah. That the mind is in.
Nick:Do you exercise?
Jason:Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:What do you do?
Jason:Wife and I walk quite regularly and golfing is probably one
Nick:of my
Jason:I wish I was a runner. I've tried to be a runner so many times and I every moment of running is Pain. Misery.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why someone would choose
Nick:to be Of a
Isaac:all the ways to stay active, why would you run?
Nick:It's terrible. I think
Jason:there's a isn't there a proverb that fools run when no one is chasing them? Oh, yeah. That usually plays in my head. I know that's taken out of context, so I'm sure there's an individual like, Wait a minute. I got to tell them why.
Isaac:It's also not good for your joints. There's other things, like people who swim, it's a lot better for you.
Jason:You put a ball out there, I will run forever chasing a ball, basketball, soccer, football, something like that. But just running the run is
Nick:horrible. Yeah. It's hard.
Isaac:It's hard. Jason's like six foot five, by the way.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. He's a tall guy.
Jason:Yeah. So he looked like a drunk giraffe.
Nick:Okay, but exercise, like, was just trying to make the point that exercise really does help with this kind of thing. Mhmm. That's true, you would say. Yeah. Yeah.
Isaac:Absolutely. Yeah. What other habits can you have in your life that help depression, or prevent it from ever coming in the first place?
Jason:Well, that's a good point, because I do think a lot of our treatment for depression and anxiety is actually proactive. It is building margin in our life. So if you are, diet, exercise, and sleep are kind of like the controllable. So oftentimes we zoom in and try to control the controllable. So what are the controllable factors of the situation?
Jason:Sometimes we're depressed and anxious because we should be depressed and anxious. As a Christian, we are incongruous to this world. This world's going to bring us despair and pain. I I I don't necessarily think that the lack of struggle is a good sign. Like, we should struggle.
Jason:There's evidence of that in scripture. When we're struggling, we need to kind of focus on the mind, body, and spirit part altogether. The proactive stuff is to take care of yourself, eat well, sleep well. I bet you sleep is probably one of the primary things that people do not get enough of. That alone, if you want one controllable aspect of it, is to get your full eight to nine hours of sleep each Eight to nine?
Jason:Yes.
Nick:Isaac, how many hours of sleep did you have last night?
Isaac:Last night. I mean, I don't I don't even remember. It's not much though. You and I often text each other at like one.
Jason:So
Nick:You're talking to us, Jason. You and I was waiting for you to say the full, and I'm waiting for the numbers. And then you said eight to nine. I'm like, oh my.
Jason:How far off are you?
Nick:I probably average six hours a night.
Jason:That seems about right.
Nick:I'm talking to a psychologist. Can I start diet
Jason:research? Sure. Yeah. We look at the impact of lack of sleep, and study that benchmarks us, they broke them up into three groups. They had one group that got a full eight hours of sleep every night, and then what they did is over the span of a week, they gave them a cognitive battery to look at problem solving, attention focus, things like that.
Jason:Group number two, they averaged about four to six hours of sleep a night, and then they did the same thing for seven nights. Group number three, they kept up for forty eight hours straight. Woah. So the interesting thing thing is the people who were kept up for forty eight hours sleep had a significant decline in their brain functioning, couldn't pay attention, and usually, we can tell that. Like, you've been up for eighteen to twenty hours a day, you can tell you're fatigued.
Jason:It's really hard to stay You're foggy. Yeah, you're foggy. We can't pay attention. They have a lot of insight to their decline. They know they're not at peak, and they can feel the decline.
Jason:The interesting thing is that after seven days of getting four to six hours of sleep, the individuals who are getting four to six hours of sleep have the same amount of cognitive decline as being up for twenty four hours straight, but they have no Because insight into that decline is gradual over seven days, they feel they are prime. So this is where most people, most clients of mine, I'm like, How much sleep do you get? They're like, About six hours and I feel great. I'm like, You would think we feel great, but are some people who function very well on six hours. I would argue that if you're on vacation, how many hours of sleep do you get a night if you don't have to set an alarm and you can sleep in?
Isaac:That's a crazy question because-
Nick:Actually, yeah, because I think it's less.
Isaac:I get less as well, because me and Emilio will stay up till 3AM because we're on vacation.
Nick:Because we're on vacation. Yeah. Because I'm on vacation.
Isaac:But then the kids still wake us up
Nick:at eight, know? Or seven. Actually, my kids wake me up at seven every night.
Jason:What if there were no expect like, if this was your rhythm and you could you would go to sleep and wake up whenever you woke up. Like, right now, you still have your kids waking you up. So if you were on vacation with your wives with no kids, and you could stay up till two in the morning, are you still getting up at six to make breakfast?
Nick:No. I'd probably sleep like, I went on a trip with a friend of mine, and we went to bed whenever we wanted. We all woke up whenever we wanted. I mean, we were anyway, anyway, we went to bed at, midnight to one in the morning almost every night, and then we woke up at, like, nine. So, it was about eight hours.
Jason:Yeah. That's eight hours.
Isaac:Wow. Nice.
Jason:And that's where, that's the way to determine how much
Isaac:sleep You naturally need.
Jason:You naturally need. That's it. Is if you're not So, getting woken
Isaac:I did a little case study on my cognitive abilities with, as it relates to sleep, because I play a lot of chess.
Jason:Oh, cool.
Isaac:And I play a lot of bullet chess on my phone, and you can play a whole game in a couple minutes, but you constantly have a rating on the chess app, and it fluctuates up and down. And I've noticed when I'm very well rested, my trend will just go up and up and up, and I'll just beat everyone. And then, when I'm tired, it's like I'm 300 points lower on the scale, like, I'm just an idiot at chess.
Jason:That's super cool.
Isaac:And I don't feel it much otherwise, but then that's made me realize, I really must be just Well, stupider I'm
Jason:it's interesting, because you don't feel stupider. That's, yes. You don't have insight into it. That's why
Isaac:I needed something tangible to show that to me, because I don't feel stupider Yeah. When I'm on no sleep.
Jason:Yeah.
Nick:You should listen to that episode we did on video games.
Isaac:Chess, video game, that's up for debate. Let's have Ken Wegren in on that. He was a chess state champ, your brother-in-law.
Nick:Yeah, yeah. Oh. I was going to mention too, do you know, did you guys ever hear about the guy who stayed up the longest, who had, like, a record for this? Mhmm.
Isaac:So, like, the Russian sleep thing?
Nick:This is Randy Gardner. So he was from San Diego, California. He once held the record for the longest amount of time that a human has gone without sleep. So this is in the sixties, and he was 17 years old, he stayed up for eleven days and twenty five minutes. Woah.
Nick:But the craziest thing is he there were no long term effects.
Jason:Once he was able to go back to sleep.
Nick:Once he was able to, like, get back in getting back into a rhythm. Yeah. Apparently, the record was broken in 1997.
Isaac:How long did he sleep for once he
Nick:Yeah. That's what I wondered. I can't remember. I read into it one time. I can't remember.
Nick:But apparently, though, the record was broken, and now somebody has eighteen days and twenty one hours.
Isaac:That's
Jason:ridiculous. That's Which is insane. Incredible. Yes.
Isaac:It's crazy.
Nick:But anyway, sleep very important, and you
Jason:said Yeah. A lot of times, we prioritize controlling the controllables upfront, and the long term support is helping with the cognitive kind of refocusing on God's character, because ultimately what protects us long term from those episodes and helps us get out of it, and this is evidenced in our Psalms, even in Elijah, he gives him a snack and a nap, and then he refocuses on the character of God. There is this transition that we have to work on from focusing on the problem to the promise. Because the depression usually is, is we're hyper focusing on us. Me, my failures, I'm not good enough, or how life is unfair, it's not the way I want, or I'm comparing myself to others.
Jason:And anxiety, we're focusing more on the situation. The thing that's uncontrollable, the thing that drives it's unpredictable and uncontrollable. So if we can intentionally capture that, this goes back to the spiritual depression quote about thinking to ourselves or listening to ourselves less, but talking to ourselves more. So, we have to talk to ourselves by replacing our priority focus from the problem to God's promises and his character.
Isaac:What exactly is anxiety, and what does it feel like, and does everyone have it?
Jason:I hope you have it. If you don't have it, it's significantly problematic. Again, anxiety at the core is a godly given function to keep you alive. It's fight or flight. I would say you absolutely have it because this is why if you're driving in a car and you're about to get into an accident, you don't think through the process of how to stop the car.
Jason:You just automatically do it. The anxiety spikes. It's fear, fight or flight. You have a threat and you act. So it actually triggers a different area of your brain.
Jason:It's the amygdala, the sympathetic nervous system. So it's not going through logic anymore. So it's just completely reactionary. You can do this with like, you see this with flinching. You see this with like yeah.
Jason:So there's there's lots of examples of kind of like you just Detroit. No anxiety,
Nick:mate. Right? So if
Jason:you don't have anxiety, you are not registering real threats. Now, when we have an anxiety disorder is when that gets stuck on and a real threat isn't present.
Isaac:I was gonna say, that makes it sound like anxiety is a good thing, so why does everyone describe anxiety as a
Jason:bad thing, and when does it become a disorder? Anxiety is described as a bad thing because we think all, our culture thinks all uncomfortable emotion is unhealthy emotion, and that's not true. Just because it's uncomfortable does not mean it's unhealthy.
Nick:Yeah. But you may I don't wanna cut you off. Don't want you to keep going, but you made this point earlier where you said there's no, like, middle ground. Like, person every bad emotion is, like, automatically, well, you're just depressed or you're anxious. But it is true that there aren't any like, you can just be sad for a day or, like, there's a you know, that you're concerned about something and you feel uncomfortable and it's awkward and it's weird and you don't like it.
Nick:But, like, there's no there's no middle ground for things. It's like either zero to a 100, and that's it, which is a a bad thing.
Isaac:But
Jason:Yeah. I think it's a bad thing, and I think trying to rush and fix it, which which leads to us trying to rush and fix it because we think it's bad. But as Christians, we're not called to suffer quick. We're called to suffer well. So it it's to have joy in the midst of suffering.
Jason:Suffering and trials are going to be there. We're called to have a joy during that, which joy is more of a cognitive mindset where you're focusing on the promises of Christ even in the midst of whatever struggle that we're having. So they're uncomfortable, but they're not necessarily unhealthy.
Isaac:But it's not good to be anxious.
Jason:If there's a tiger in the room, it
Nick:is good to be anxious.
Isaac:I understand I think you're
Nick:saying worrying, right? Is that what you're saying?
Isaac:Yeah, I guess so. Worrying and anxiety are the same? No?
Nick:No. Well, what would you say, Jason?
Jason:I mean, you could There are similar aspects of it. You're not called to have a spirit of fear in you. Yeah. The fear shouldn't be driving your decisions, but there are times where we should be that we're naturally going to be anxious. I mean, emotional reactions are a God given process.
Jason:Yeah. I mean, even in I think one of the questions you gave me, don't know if we mentioned it earlier, talks about how does this fit into the being fearfully and wonderfully made. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Jason:So it's like part of that is to kind of understand like, okay, when I read through the fearfully and wonderfully made, so where does anxiety fit into this? Being fearfully and wonderfully made is not necessarily saying that we are in our perfect state right now. Our bodies are impacted by the fall. I think in the phrase of being fearfully and wonderfully made, David in the Psalm, I think it's one thirty nine, he's talking about just how intimately God knows us, and knows us at the core. But later in that same Psalm, he talks about, he's praying that God knows his heart and knows his anxious thoughts.
Jason:He's admitting he's anxious, and in the same moment, it's not a different time. Both things can be true. God can be good. God can be sovereign, and we can still be anxious in the moment. It's not necessarily the experience of anxiety and depression that makes it healthier or unhealthy, it's our response to it.
Jason:If we look for a quick fix, I'm going to drink alcohol, I'm going to take medication, I'm going to just sleep it away, I'm going to dwell on it, That's a problem. But if we use that to transition from focusing on the problems in life to the promises of God, that's the key difference for a Christian.
Isaac:Is there such thing as having anxiety that's not correlated to a specific event or circumstance?
Jason:Keep going with that. What do think?
Isaac:So, I was talking to a guy who was saying that he just has anxiety. He just has anxiety. He's just anxious. I've heard people say that. I've heard it from two different people, and I asked one of them, okay, what does that feel like?
Isaac:What does that mean? Because normally, if I'm anxious, I feel like usually related to, I don't know, finances, or work, or something else, like some And they said, picture you're in trouble. Your boss is angry at you, you know he's gonna call you into his office later, Or the feeling that you get when the principal calls you to the office, you just have that, it's kind of like a cloud that hangs over you. Yeah. And no matter what you do, the rest of the day, you have that weighing on you, and it's just a feeling of general anxiety.
Isaac:They're like, take that feeling that you have in your gut and in your mind, and just, you have that throughout the day for no reason. Yep. So, is that a thing?
Jason:Yeah. It's called generalized anxiety disorder.
Isaac:So, that's
Jason:a disorder. Worrywarts. They're always anxious about something. It's kind of like playing whack a mole in their minds. They're worried about finances right now, and then they're worried about what to eat for lunch, and then they're worried about their car, they're worried about this relationship, and, Oh, no, I didn't tell my boss goodbye, so now he hates me.
Jason:They're just chronically worried about something. To go back to the original question at the very beginning, when we talk about what distinguishes a mental health disorder versus a healthy source of anxiety, it's intensity or duration, and that individual would be anxious for no reason. Like, there's no the intensity of the anxiety that he's feeling at every moment far outweighs what he should be feeling. So that would be problematic, and it gets in the way of life. And it's exhausting.
Jason:It's absolutely exhausting.
Nick:What you said is helpful that it's not or that it is how we are taking those thoughts or those motivations or those whatever that is happening in our in our heads, how we respond to it. So are we taking that those problems or recognizing? Are we taking that and going to the promises of God? Yep. And what scripture says, or are we taking it and trying to cure it ourselves?
Nick:Yeah. Because really, I don't I like you know, we we have scriptures as a tool. It's very helpful. It is is God breathed, and one of the things Jesus himself says is don't worry. You know?
Nick:He's do not worry about today for Is it is there's one
Isaac:that says be anxious about nothing. Right?
Nick:Yeah. Be anxious for nothing. You know? And so I'm just thinking, like, scripture is the what you said earlier, Jason, like, what did you say? If we focus on what scripture says, like, it just it it does change our the chemistry of our brain.
Jason:Absolutely.
Nick:And it's I was thinking, like, oh, it's almost like God's word is living and active and powerful. Yeah. It's amazing.
Jason:And and it's funny because science ultimately catches up to God's scripture. So when you say be be anxious for nothing, you're thinking of Philippians four. Yes. To read it, it says, Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be known to God, and the peace of God which surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds through Jesus Christ. The interesting part is that within the last couple years, they've done research on the power of gratitude, of being thankful, and it shuts your anxiety centers off.
Jason:You cannot be simultaneously practicing and meditating on being grateful while being anxious. So again, the solution is in scripture, but it's just how we respond to the anxiety. It's like you can sit with it. I I I don't think the actual anxiety is necessarily sinful. It's what you it's how you respond to it.
Nick:Are you are you saying then because I'm you had pointed out, Isaac, what scripture says about it says, do not be anxious. So then are is your whole point like this thing is kind of like a it's it's something that is in us that is you said fight or flight. Yeah. Like, triggers an emotion. It triggers a something.
Nick:Yeah. And we can decide to take that initial trigger to wherever, you know Yeah. Wherever we decide. And oftentimes, decide to, be anxious about the thing. Whereas that trigger we should take that and respond by going to Scripture and getting encouragement rather than dwelling on that anxiety or that anxious thought.
Jason:God, if you read through Scripture and when you read through the Sermon on the Mount where he talks about consider the lilies in the field and whatnot, God does not want to just remove your anxiety. He wants to replace it. So we need to acknowledge it. Imagine how different you would feel and be if you took every moment of anxiety and despair as an invitation to draw close to God. It is God calling you back to Him.
Jason:All of a sudden, we can have anxiety and it could be like, God is good. God is sovereign. All of a sudden, when we truly bask in the glory of God being good and God being sovereign, no matter what situation you're in, you're okay. You're not anxious anymore. There's a degree of scariness to it because sometimes, I'm sure Daniel in the lion's den, there was a little bit of apprehension.
Jason:Mean, even think of Joshua. What did God say numerous times to Joshua before telling him to go into battle? Be strong and courageous. Be strong and courageous. Courage is not the absence of fear.
Jason:Courage is stepping into it even though you're fearful. God didn't say, Hey, I'm going to remove that anxiety so that you don't have to be courageous, because nobody has to be courageous to go and do something that's not scary. Have to be courageous to do something that is genuinely going to cause you fear. I think that ultimately it's that response that is going to be an invitation to draw close to God. We are not going to find peace in circumstances.
Jason:The outcomes of situations, this is where your individual with generalized anxiety disorder, yeah, he might be nervous about the car making a noise and not getting home, and then he gets home, and then the anxiety is still there. So then his brain's like, Well, then I must be nervous about money, or I must be nervous about this, or this conversation. It's going to keep looking for it. The peace comes from focusing and meditating on God and his character. That's what is stable, and that's what gives us the peace that goes beyond understanding.
Isaac:Yeah. So where anxiety becomes sinful is where is when people try to take things into their own hands, like take problems into their own hands, and they try to control the situation instead of just relying on God.
Jason:Yeah. I I mean, again, like, I would love to have conversation with some individuals who are way more theologically sound than I. I just know that there are incredible men of faith, whether you look through David and his Psalms, you look at Elijah, you look at I mean, even some modern, more modern versions like Spurgeon, like there is chronic struggle with depression and anxiety. Could you make the argument that it is sinful but not controllable at the beginning? Sure.
Jason:But I do think that when it pops up, the the most important action is what you do with it next. And we have to practice that response, the Christian like response is to refocus on God. He wants to replace that anxiety with comfort from him, not just remove it.
Nick:Which another way to do that, also to to help bring you to God is we we talked about this a lot last time, and I think it would be helpful if we touched on it now, is relying on leaders and rely you know, coming to them for help and for comfort and for reminders about who God is. We, you know, because we discussed, I think we asked you last time, like, when would you say you should go to a pastor versus a clinician? And we really established, like, you should be going to your pastor, period. Yeah. That should be where you go first.
Nick:Yeah. And just how important that is, especially in regards to depression and anxiety, because they're gonna know who you are. They're gonna know your tendency, and they're gonna know, like you said, the guys here, pastors here, masters of divinity, they know the word. Yeah. They know the spiritual battle, and so they're gonna know the truth to combat it with.
Nick:Yeah. And they're there to help you. That's what it says in Hebrews, right? I mean, it says to obey your leaders and submit to them because they keep watch over your soul. Yeah.
Nick:And it says, let them do this with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. So, it's like your leaders are there not to just, you know, be like a phone a friend, I need your help, but they're literally watching over your soul. Yeah.
Isaac:And it's crazy how well pastors, elders, deacons know the flock
Nick:Oh, yeah.
Isaac:And know your problems, and man, I just can't express it enough. They deal with so many different situations and problems. It's not like they themselves in their own life have had experiences that
Nick:Give them, like, they're a Yeah. Master over They've got all the experience.
Isaac:It's that they've helped so many people that are probably in your exact situation.
Nick:Yeah.
Isaac:That's the reason we had Bart and Jules come on last week to talk about dating. It's not because they were better at dating.
Nick:Or that they dated a ton of people.
Isaac:Yeah. It's that they work with so many people that are dating that they've become experts on it, and that's like church leadership across the board.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. So I I did wanna nail that down also just because, you know, we're talking about habits and, like, where you go, your response.
Jason:Well, I would I would argue that you should be doing that even before depression and anxiety is a thing.
Nick:Yeah.
Jason:This is where it gets to we should be protecting ourselves ahead of time. So most of our treatment is proactive. Most of the things we are doing, if depression, anxiety, if you're a human, the odds are you're going struggle with it at some point in time in your life. It's sixty percent. Why not start doing the things and kind of incorporating the patterns of life that's going to protect you from that?
Jason:So be involved, be connected, be meditating on God's word with other people, because if we don't have those relationships, those first calls are hard. If you're not connected with other men at the church, or women if you're a woman, and now you start to struggle, calling someone and reaching out is really difficult at that point. But just being in fellowship with men, that protects you. Now you have a bunch of eyes on you, they're going to start noticing red flags before you do, and all of a sudden you have those relationships that you can lean in and rely on when things get difficult. It also protects you just because the closer you The more you're in the word with other men, closer you are to the shepherd, the safer the sheep is.
Jason:You want to draw as close to the shepherd as possible through your daily rhythm.
Isaac:On that topic, what signs can we be looking for in our friends to maybe diagnose that they're depressed? What signs can we be looking for in them to know that they need help?
Jason:What signs have you noticed? Have you noticed friends who have gone through struggles? Like, looking back, what were first some of the first signs you may see at retroactively? Like, after the fact that you realize they're in trouble?
Nick:Separating like being alone, not being with, you know, not coming to things, not being with the people. Quieter.
Jason:The isolation is important because that and that was a one time in Genesis that God said it was not good was when Adam was alone. Throughout the Genesis creation story, we are not built to be alone. Isolation is probably going to be one. Now, I know that there's some people who prefer to be alone. What I would encourage us to realize is when there is a functional difference happen.
Jason:So if someone who's typically outgoing is now missing groups and hasn't come, that would warrant Now does that mean every time someone misses a Bible study that they no. But it warrants probably a follow-up, especially if they've missed two. It's just like, hey, just checking in. How are things going? Love to grab coffee.
Jason:Let's rally around each other, but we should be looking for changes in behavior, changes in mood.
Nick:Yeah. That's helpful because and it's it reminds me of just how amazing God is and how his design is perfect. Like, we really aren't meant to be alone. We are meant to be with each other, and you realize how much that actually helps you. I mean, it is also a a fact too that people who have a community and who even if they're not Christians, if they just go to a church, like, or if they go to some sort of community organization, or they're involved somehow in some community
Jason:Oh, yeah.
Nick:That they're happier, and that they're they're, you know, more likely to have a stable life. Yeah. But especially people who are of the faith because, you know, you realize you just realize, like, even when you just said that. I mean, what is a person missing two two events or two Bible studies and then somebody reaching out to them? It's a safety net.
Nick:I mean, it's like they're going they're they're they're being protected by God. Yeah. Because God's design is for this, for that to happen.
Isaac:Yeah. It's just crazy how well some people hide depression.
Nick:Oh, okay.
Isaac:Like, I I remember one time, I had a conversation with a guy at length, and I was asking him maybe some harder questions, and then he killed himself that weekend. And it was like kinda shattering to me, because I was like, I I wouldn't have ever picked up on the fact that he was depressed or headed in that direction.
Nick:Mhmm.
Isaac:So it's like, how do you how do you pick up on that when talking to people?
Jason:If they don't want you to know, you will not know. I do think there's not a responsibility on the receiver all the time, it's a responsibility on the sender. So healthy people ask for what they need. I think Robin Williams, who was a comedian who committed suicide, he had a famous quote that the one He said, The people who typically make you laugh the most are the ones struggling the most, because that's how they cope. I'm not saying that's a global truth, but I am saying there are people that hide it and hide it very well.
Jason:I do think though that when you start living life with people, you start to see through some of the facade and the masks that they wear. You start to realize that things may not be as great
Isaac:as Better you get to know them. Yeah. So if you are walking through life depressed, to some extent, should you ever be hiding it and putting on a face of joy? Or should you just be honest and just act how you feel?
Jason:I'm not sure if there's a right answer there because there's obviously clear moments where you probably should like okay. Let let let's be completely honest or transparent. Like, if someone's having a rough day and they have to go give a talk
Nick:Yeah.
Jason:They shouldn't go up into their business talk and say, oh, man, and just start ripping off their depression. Right. Times in life where we have to it's just not the appropriate moment. But if that's the general coping strategy that you have, yeah, it's going to be pretty problematic. Mhmm.
Jason:Avoidance in general of emotional reactions is difficult. That's usually the number one cause of mental health problems is is that when they happen, we trend tend to not wanna deal with them.
Nick:I also think too that I mean, how many have you guys I've experienced this. Have you been in a situation where you need to change your attitude and your emotions and you do? You know, like, you can. Sometimes I'm I'm not saying 100% of the time that's possible, but there have been times where, like, yeah, go into a scenario. I mean, a great example is, like, coming home.
Nick:I'm not gonna come home and just if I have had a rough day at work, it would be wrong for me to come home and give that to my family. Dump it on my kids and my wife. I think God does give us power over our sin and over our flesh to say, no. I'm gonna have joy in this scenario. Yeah.
Nick:I'm gonna be happy. Or I just think of, like, what you said, like, you have to give a talk. Yeah. It's like, I can think of those times in my life where it's like, no. It's time to actually step up and just do what you need to do.
Isaac:Can't just be crippled by you. Have to keep moving through it.
Jason:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as Christians, we're called to have self control. Yeah. Some of it's gonna be temporary self control over our emotions.
Jason:But again, the extremes are problematic. So having self control to the point where you're hiding it from everyone, that's not you're not honest. You don't have fellowship with anybody. They have a fellowship with a mask that you present, but the struggle with that is they may feel close to you and they may fall in love with whatever the mask is, but you know that that's a version of you that's in between and that prevents you from feeling connected. So you can kind of have a little bit of self control for a short time.
Nick:Yeah. That's what was gonna right.
Jason:Yeah. So walk home. Yeah. Like, you gotta be present for your kids and your wife. They have needs too.
Jason:But at some point, it's probably worth leaning in and having an open conversation with your wife. Like, that also leads to fellowship in your marriage.
Nick:Mhmm.
Isaac:True. So, this is definitely a more heavy or dark topic, but what is what are happening are suicide numbers increasing right now or decreasing, or what's happening with that in America? And then also, what goes wrong to get you from point A, Depression, to point B, Suicide?
Jason:I don't exactly know if the numbers are increasing or decreasing. My guess would be they're decreasing because they were at all time highs during COVID. Oh, were they? And because of that isolation, depression rates and suicide rates went through the roof.
Isaac:How is depression and suicide related, I guess is how I should ask it?
Jason:Suicide is somewhat of a symptom of depression. Depression is the feelings of being under grief or sadness or morose. Then suicide is having thoughts of wanting to end your life. Now, from a clinical standpoint, a lot of individuals have thoughts about wanting to end their life. We take it there's a hierarchy with whether we're having thoughts of suicide, whether we have a plan, and then whether we have intent.
Jason:And as that escalates, we would take separate varying degrees of steps to respond to that. Here's what's interesting about suicide is people often think it is an emotional reaction. It can be an emotional reaction, but it's mostly emotional and impulsive for kids. It's really hard to predict suicide in kids because they can get just an F on a paper, and then they just take in like, they impulsively take steps to try to end their life. Wow.
Jason:Adults, it's actually more often a very logical thought out process. In the sense of they are under a large degree of distress that they have no hope would ever get better, and they just want relief. So if you think of it that way, I'm under a lot of distress, I need relief, and it's not going to get better, what's logically your solution? I can get relief in their mind by ending their life. Now, this is where the whole theological debate comes into play about, Okay, but what happens afterwards?
Jason:But they are just looking A lot of times we are really looking at the problem, and the problem is right now on earth I'm in despair, and I want to end it. I want the relief from that despair, and the only When it gets risky and dangerous, that's the only solution for them.
Nick:Reminds me of what Elijah said. Yeah. Yeah.
Isaac:Yeah. Yeah. I also thought of Paul. I've heard this before. Paul said something along the lines of it would be easier for me to just die and go to heaven right now, but I need to stay on earth because there's things to be done Yeah.
Isaac:Or work to do here. So I guess that should that kinda correlates back to what you were saying earlier where serving and being with others is a big way to combat depression. That's what Paul did.
Jason:Yeah. Yeah, I think it's being fellowship minded and being kingdom minded. When we're focusing on God and his plan, I mean, if if God is good and God is sovereign, if we are alive, there is a reason for it.
Nick:Right. And it's it's I hope we emphasize too how, I mean, suicide is wicked. It's evil. It's it's the destruction of the flesh. It's destruction of the the body that God has created.
Jason:Yeah. Well, it's murder of self.
Nick:Yeah. It's right.
Isaac:It's murder.
Nick:Yeah. Exactly. It is murder.
Jason:Yeah. So part of it, like, in those moments as a Christian, we have to, again, transition from focusing on what's wrong to the character of God. I wish I could give this quote, Rightful ownership. I just don't know where I read this a while back. This is what the process looks like through counseling delicately.
Jason:Counseling starts with presence. I'm going to meet them where they're at, I'm not going to rush to this, but over time this is how we get into challenging the truth. The truth is delicately saying, This is hard. I'm not minimizing that. What we're going through is hard, but there's probably more to the story.
Jason:The quote that I read a while back is, When God wanted to make David a king, he didn't give him a crown, he gave him a Goliath. When God wanted to raise Joseph to the palace, he didn't give him a shortcut, He gave him a prison. When God wanted to make Esther a queen, He didn't give her comfort, He gave her a crisis. When God wanted to make Moses a leader, He didn't give him a stage, He gave him a wilderness. Often when it feels like God is trying to break you, he's actually building you.
Jason:God gives you what you need to be everything he needs you to be. If we get focused on the current situation in the prison or the Goliath that's in front of us, it looks hopeless.
Isaac:Yeah.
Jason:But we have to realize that there is no vanity in that struggle, and that's where the joy comes into play. From a Christian, we have to realize it is hard now, but it's hard for a purpose. Yeah. And God is refining us. He is equipping us, and he's growing us.
Jason:And this is where, like, if we could just address all of our struggle and view it from the point that it's an invitation to draw close to him, it's like, Oh, thank you for that. We're not dwelling on the negative and saying this is so hard and this is so unfair. We're actually appreciative of the struggle and trial that we're facing.
Nick:Yeah. We can, I would love to wrap up with just kind of the truth encouragements? So, like, the truth of scripture, but also the qualities of God that we should remind ourselves of to keep these to to to battle and fight against depression and anxiety. So one thing but one thing that comes to mind is the passage in James that says I mean, we talked earlier about, like, not telling somebody who's depressed, oh, just be happy. And I don't think this is exactly that kind of, you know, this kind of application.
Nick:But I think of James, it says, consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds Mhmm. For the testing of your faith produces perseverance. And you're you're absolutely right what you said, Jason, which is like, gave you these things for a reason. Yeah. If it is if you are going through many trials, like, we should find joy in that because it shows that God wants to test our faith and grow us.
Nick:Yeah. And that's that's just something I think of off the bat of, like, you know, I've experienced trials in my life, and I need to remember that God is sovereign, that God is good, that he wants what's best for me, that he's putting me through this for a reason. Actually, it's kind of crazy. I I think about people who don't know God, and I'm like, I don't know how you get through things because when I think of my struggles, I'm at least I can go back and say, well, God really is in control, so I really don't have to worry that much about it, even though it is really hard. Yeah.
Nick:I at least know that God is watching over me and that he loves me. You know? But if somebody doesn't know God, it's like, well, this is happening for some reason. Maybe not. Maybe it's just completely random.
Nick:I'm like, wow, that's hopeless. That's a great
Isaac:point.
Jason:That's usually when I'm speechless. For non Christians, I'm like, I don't know how you make sense Without of the God at the center of
Isaac:it all,
Jason:good luck.
Nick:Yeah. Exactly.
Jason:It's tough.
Nick:Yeah. But what what would you guys say What are some promises of God, some qualities of God that we can focus on and encourage listeners with, or ourselves with, to combat depression and anxiety?
Jason:I mean, would rely I mean, if we solely focus on the fact that God is good and God is sovereign, that above all else kind of prioritizes and helps us conceptualize everything. Even in the verse in James that you quoted, what's interesting about it is when you go back to the Greek original word of the testing, it's actually the testing of silver. So when you understand what that process is from a metallurgist back in the days of purifying silver, you get it really, really hot, you put a lot of pressure on it, all the impurities come up to the top, they scrape away the impurities, they let it cool down, then they get it really, really hot again, and that's the process of testing silver. Well, pure silver is reflective. So if we have the perspective that the trials and suffering that we have to persevere is so that God can see Himself in us, that's beautiful.
Jason:This is where the joy comes into play because, yes, it's hard, but it's hard with a purpose. If we can prioritize that even when things don't feel good, that we serve a good creator who's in control. It's like, okay, no matter what it feels like for me right now, I don't have to carry any of this. He's got it under control.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. I remember when we talked with Lucas Wilson, one of the great guys here at our church, used to be a pastor, and he gave his testimony. It was really great, but one thing we said at the end, asked him for encouragements, he said, like, what he would want to leave people with, and he said, God is good, and then just kind of sat there for a And few I think if you would have said that to me as a kid or as a teenager, I would have been like, yeah, know God is good. Like, yeah, Okay.
Nick:But if you just sit and think about it for two seconds, I mean, there are all kinds of different things that things that become real. You think, okay. Well, God is good. He's my creator. He's in control.
Nick:That means he's not against me. That means he he's not trying to attack me or put me down or destroy me. He does really want what's best for me, which means that
Isaac:He wants you to have victory, and he wants you to win.
Nick:He wants us to have victory over our flesh. He wants us to he wants to bless us. Like, I always remember, you know, what who among you, when his son asks him for bread, gives him a stone, or, you know, asks for whatever and gives him a serpent. It's like, God wants us to give God wants to give us good things. He the word literally says, delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart.
Nick:You know, he he desires to bless us and love us. Mhmm. And, anyway, I just think that dwelling on the goodness of God, I hope is an encouragement to listeners as well because of how how much that is just endless.
Jason:Yeah. So But but growing in your faith is not done in trusting that God is good when things feel good. Right. Growing in your face is done when you trust in that God is good when things don't feel good. Right.
Jason:You have to have the not feeling good
Nick:moments for our
Jason:faith to grow. We should be thankful for that and for those opportunities.
Isaac:Yeah. And I think Gary mentioned this in a Sunday school, a Christ the Lord Sunday school a few months back that was on depression, but the Psalms are such a good place to go if you're struggling with depression, because like you said, David was depressed for half of them.
Nick:Didn't Gary say, you should be living in the Psalms?
Isaac:Yeah. It should be your food and water. Right. Because it's just wild seeing what David goes through, because every single Psalm, it seems like he's just like, my enemies are coming on all sides. Why have you abandoned me?
Nick:I'm about to die.
Isaac:He's in absolute despair, which crazy thing is probably was about to die.
Nick:Right. That's what I'm saying
Isaac:is like He's being chased by Saul and went up, but he, like, he just had these crazy things going on, but you'll notice almost always it turns back in the Psalm two, but I know, like, you're good and you're gonna provide.
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. What's the Psalm that you why are you cast down on my soul and why are you disturbed within me? Hoping God for I will yet again praise him, the help of my accountants and my God. I mean, that's that's literally what we're talking about.
Nick:Yep. Problem, solution. Yep. You know? Yep.
Jason:Yeah. And I just think the devil's game is to distract us because the devil can't take your salvation, but he can rob you of God's peace, and he's gonna do that by keeping your mind distracted from him.
Nick:So Yeah. Well, praise God for his goodness. Let's wrap there. Isaac, any other thoughts? No.
Nick:Jason? Nope. Thank you for your time. Yeah. Thank you.
Nick:We love having you on. Oh, I appreciate it. Yeah. Love you, Jason. Love you,
Isaac:Love you, guys. Love you, Nick. Love you too, Isaac. Caleb? Love you, Caleb.
Caleb:Love you, guys.
Nick:Alright. Thank you guys for listening to this episode of Fellow Heirs. If you enjoyed it, our conversation with Jason, please share it with a friend. If you have somebody going through something hard or if you have, you know, people in your life who are struggling, use God's word. Please speak with a pastor.
Nick:Please speak with one of your spiritual leaders. Yeah. I hope that encouragement was clear, but share this episode with a friend, a relative, coworker, anyone. If you would like to learn more about our church, our website is in the description. And if you'd like to contact us for any reason, comment criticism, correction, we said something stupid, we have an episode that you think we should do.
Nick:Anything like that, we can be reached at fellowheirspod@gmail.com. There's also gonna be like an anonymous submission form. There'll be a link in the description too for anybody who wants to submit any anonymous ideas. And, yeah, what's next week?
Isaac:So, yeah, I was gonna say we're starting something new. We're if we're if it's Right. If we can, we wanna let you Sometimes guys we don't plan out that far.
Nick:Sometimes we
Isaac:But we wanna let you guys know what the next week's episode is gonna be on, so if anyone has a question that they really wanna be answered, or something that really interests them about that topic, they can reach out to us and and put it on our minds, that we maybe we can ask them. Next week is on Mormonism. Mormons. Mormons.
Nick:So, if you have any questions that you want answered about Mormons, please email us. We will accept submissions via email. Yeah. And we will we will do our best to add them if they are helpful to the conversation.
Isaac:Are we doing a riddle? Oh, we're doing a riddle. Okay. Oh, yeah. Take it away.
Isaac:This is It's actually a very special week for for riddles, so I'll get to that. But first, we have to award last week's riddle, which it's a $20 award reward for last week's riddle, which was what five letter word typed in all capital letters can be read the same upside down. We had three people answer this riddle correctly, and I gave their names to Caleb and Caleb Wait.
Nick:What were the answers?
Isaac:So the answer the go to answer is Swims, because w and m are reversible. So you can rotate it a 180 degrees, and it will be the same word.
Nick:Right. Which is yeah.
Isaac:Yes. But some of the people that answered this riddle actually interpreted it in a different way. Like, cut it in half. Yeah. Like, cut it in half and flip it like a like a mirror, which would still be upside down.
Isaac:So, I gave it to those people as well, and that opens it up to a variety of words that are spelled with parallel letters. Caleb, I've given Who's you three this week's winner of $20 to
Nick:Sheets? It's Luke.
Isaac:Luke Nowak.
Nick:Luke Nowak, finally.
Isaac:Friend of the show finally wins.
Nick:Friend of the show, he was on recently.
Isaac:Thanks, Luke. Yes. Good job, Luke. Okay. Now, this week's riddle, this is very special.
Isaac:Enjoy your
Nick:sheets, Luke. Enjoy your enjoy your your hot dogs, which I know you will be buying with the gift card.
Isaac:Luke loves sheets hot dogs. What? So, this week's riddle is very special because it is a sponsored riddle by a listener. This riddle is sponsored by Parker Cornwell. And Mister Parker Cornwell.
Isaac:We would love to wish his lovely wife, Jeanette, a very happy birthday.
Nick:Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, dear Jen. Sing it louder, Caleb. Happy birthday to
Jason:you.
Isaac:Everyone who listens to the show, go up to Jeanette and wish her a happy birthday if you see her at church or anywhere else.
Nick:This is the first happy birthday we've ever had.
Isaac:Yeah. This is sponsored. If you wanna sponsor a riddle, let me know. So this week's riddle was actually also provided by listener Parker, and here it is. How Alright.
Isaac:I already started wrong. Alright. Here's the riddle.
Nick:You got this.
Isaac:What has many names but no voices? See next week.