You Can Mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders through resources and relationships to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community.
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You can mentor is a podcast about the power of building relationships with kids from hard places in the name of Jesus. Every episode will help you overcome common mentoring obstacles
Speaker 2:and give
Speaker 1:you the confidence you need to invest in the lives of others. You can mentor.
Speaker 3:Hey, mentors. Just a reminder about the You Can Mentor book. It's titled You Can Mentor, How to Impact Your Community, Fulfill the Great Commission, and Break Generational Curses. The whole point of this book is to equip and encourage mentors with new tools and ideas on how to make the most of their mentor mentee relationship. If you're a mentor, hey, go pick it up.
Speaker 3:And if you're a mentoring organization, pick some up for all of your mentors. If you would like to order mass copies, like more than 20, send an email to me, zach@youcanmentor.com, and we will get you guys a special price. But go and pick up that book. It's good. You can mentor.
Speaker 4:Welcome, You Can Mentor listeners. I'm so excited for this interview today. I'm sitting down right now with doctor Heather Holloman, who is an associate teaching professor at Penn State, speaker, and author. She designs advanced writing curricula for the English department and loves helping students thrive professionally. She has written 8 books, including the
Speaker 2:bestseller, Seated with Christ Living Freely in a Culture
Speaker 4:of Comparison, and an award award winning book on evangelism that she co wrote with her husband, Ashley, called Living a Life That Invites Others to Jesus. Heather also serves with the faculty commons and the professor and graduate student ministry of CREW. She has 2 daughters, 3 cats, and she blogs daily at heatherholliman.com. Her podcast is The Verb with Heather Heather Holliman. Well, there we go, Heather.
Speaker 4:There's my first snafu by calling you Heather. And I'm so glad to to be sitting down with you today. We are gonna talk about your latest book, The 6 Conversations, Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Now as I mentioned, I'm sitting here in in Waco, Texas. Where are you sitting today?
Speaker 2:I'm in State College, Pennsylvania where it is freezing. It is our a freezing spring, so I should be weeding my garden, but it's, like, 40 degrees and raining. So I'm happy to be here on the podcast with
Speaker 4:you guys. Yeah. Let's stay let's just make it an inside day today then.
Speaker 2:That sounds good. Inside day. That's right.
Speaker 4:Well, this book is right up the alley for our mentors. Again, we we exist to equip and encourage mentors, individuals, and organizations, and so I think that this is just gonna be kinda both of that. I think that we're gonna gain encouragement from your perspective and your knowledge and your experience, but also very much that we're going to learn some maybe some practical things to think about when it comes to initiating conversation, maybe maybe keeping quality conversation going from mentor to mentee. This I can even speak from kind of personal experience, Heather, being a youth minister for 20 years and and having lots of mentoring opportunities. I just kinda take I I go back to that, you know, going to the lunchroom, meeting with teenagers, and just struggling sometimes to find a way to initiate when I just don't feel like you know, maybe it's a personality thing or even kinda my own headspace and thinking, man, I really wanna do this kid's service and connect with them well, make them feel important and valuable, but it's always good.
Speaker 2:Help you. I will help you.
Speaker 4:So let's dig in. Why why did you write this book on having better conversations, and what prompted that?
Speaker 2:Well, I wrote the book for three reasons. The first was my husband and I wrote that book on evangelism, and we found that a lot of the people who read the book said, okay. We wanna talk about our faith. We're ready for this, but can you go back a step? Because we don't even know how to have conversations in general, much less talk about our deeply held spiritual beliefs.
Speaker 2:So we really wanted to train people well in how to just have conversations in general. The second reason was the epidemic of loneliness. John, I was so sad and worried about the reports coming out about loneliness. And, you know, not just on the college campus, I was reading the Cigna Health study of 20,000 US adults. You know, people are claiming, you know, over one over half the population is saying they regularly feel alone.
Speaker 2:They don't have meaningful conversations. The third reason was the Harvard Grant study. I was showing my students the longest research study ever conducted. It's still going on. And it's trying to answer the question, what is the single most determining factor of a happy life?
Speaker 2:And the answer is warm connections. And my students would say, well, how do we get those? So I began to research reading all the social science research I could on how do you have meaningful connections with others? What do you need in order to have a good conversation that will intervene in the loneliness epidemic and create closeness between people. So that's what I began to study, and that's what motivated this book.
Speaker 4:Amazing, man. So in this book, you mentioned the 4 mindsets of a loving conversation. So what are those mindsets?
Speaker 2:Well, this is really fascinating research because as I was reading all these studies and trying to figure out, okay, what's the secret here? How do you have a good conversation with people? And it's not just training and asking good question that really has to go back to the mindset you need. In order to have a warm and loving connection with someone, you really need to have 4 mindsets operating. You need to be curious, believe the best, express concern, and share your life.
Speaker 2:Now if one of those things is missing, you're not gonna have a warm connection. And, usually, people are deficient in one of those 4 areas. So either you're not curious, meaning you you're just not good at asking people questions and you really aren't curious about them, or you don't believe the best. Now especially with teenagers, they can immediately tell if you're judging them, if you're not believing the best about them. Expressing concern is about mutual, you know, investment.
Speaker 2:You're invested in what's gonna happen to this person and then sharing your life. A lot of people are good at interviewing, but they're bad at sharing their life. Now what most delighted me, John, about all this research was we've actually already heard all of this before in the Bible. It's really Philippians 2, Romans 12, Galatians 6.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You you see it all there. Take on the interest of other people. Value them above yourselves. Outdo them in showing honor. Hairy each other's burdens and share your life.
Speaker 2:So I love these mindsets. It's really Christian discipleship. If you get these 4 mindsets down, you're really ready to then begin a conversation with someone.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. Man, that's gold. My goodness. Already, you're right. You're hitting us with some really good practical
Speaker 2:It's it's it's convicting, though. It's convicting. Like, a lot of people are really not doing well in one of those areas. And the number one thing people are struggling with is actually believing the best about people. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You know, from 2016 on, we're a culture of suspicion, judgment. You know, we're ready to cancel each other. That's why the subtitle is a culture of isolation and instability. And a lot of Christians really struggle with, what do you mean I'm supposed to believe the best? Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That's not even biblical. How do I love my neighbor? Like, what if they're a different political position? What if they're doing things I don't agree with? But I'm really trying to intervene in that conversation and say, look.
Speaker 2:We see biblically believe the best about people. I mean, Paul says, bless your enemies. Bless those who persecute you. Outdo people in in showing honor. And so it's really hard to think, okay.
Speaker 2:Am I someone who believes the best? I don't know. Do you feel that? Those 4 mindsets, everyone's kinda struggling with one of them, I think.
Speaker 4:100%. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're I think you hit the nail on the head for sure. So I think that it's interesting to as you share those, this this sharing your life, I think they're obviously also very important, but I just can remember kinda personally speaking, this was a relationship.
Speaker 4:It wasn't it was not a formal mentor mentee relationship. It actually was a friend. It was a it was a church member that I was on staff with, and I can remember him saying at a certain point, hey. You know what? There there feels an imbalance here sometimes in our friendship because I feel like I'm always the one that has struggles, and that's the kind of stuff that we're always dealing with.
Speaker 4:And you never really let me know what's going on with you. And that that wasn't, like, an epiphany moment of thinking, oh, you know what? I've kinda done him a disservice, and I think that it obviously makes sense even in terms of this idea of of having our mentees know, and just the people in our lives know that they matter to us is this idea of being able to share what we're going through, like, share the humanity of what we're struggling with as opposed to, oh, I'm sorry. I'm here to meet your need. I'm ministering to you, and so, therefore, it's all about your stuff.
Speaker 4:When, really, it can just be such a wonderful release maybe for them to not be thinking or talking about their stuff, but instead hear from you.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And isn't a huge part of mentoring letting the mentee see how you work through and apply biblical principles to struggles? Yeah. Now in the book, I talk about being self aware in 3 areas, like knowing your major stressors, what is your next biggest upcoming decision, and, like, what thoughts keeping you up at night? And think about that.
Speaker 2:If you're self aware enough to know those three things, you always can share your life with people. When someone says, hey. How are you doing? You could say, okay. Let me tell you some of my major stressors, or let me tell you this upcoming decision I have to make and how I'm let how I'm letting god enter into that and, like, what my decision making rubric is.
Speaker 2:Or, hey. You know what? My thoughts are spinning at night. This is what goes through my head at night when I try to fall asleep. What about you?
Speaker 2:The the mentee will just open up when you are vulnerable. And I think, you know, it's it's hard, though. I mean, John, you gotta be self aware enough to know what you're go what you're going through. A lot of people aren't.
Speaker 4:Sure. Sure. And, you know, it takes intentionality as well. So you have an interesting perspective because you've you've had a life of ministry. You know, I think even just to be a writer, you're you're kind of perceptive on what's on what's going on around you.
Speaker 4:You're obviously a researcher as well. You're you you have the community there at Penn State. So what what is it that you're kinda seeing in terms of the Kermit climate of conversation in in in your worlds that you live in?
Speaker 2:Well, what I'm seeing in the college population is, okay, we don't, number 1, know how to start a conversation, and then we don't know what question to ask next. And, again, there's a lot of suspicion and fear. So people are vetting each other. Like, when you meet someone on the college campus, instead of believing the best, you're thinking, you know, who did they vote for? What did they believe about vaccines?
Speaker 2:What was their position on Roe v Wade? So it can be really tense. And so when I teach students about believing the best, especially, you know, I teach persuasion, academic writing. We talk a lot about honoring your audience because it's your best chance of actually persuading someone. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But they say to me, like, I don't know. What question should I ask? And then and then what do I say? So even a couple weeks ago, I said, well, you know, you could start. Like, what if you complimented someone's outfit and said, oh my gosh, I love that skirt.
Speaker 2:Tell me the story of how you found that skirt. And they literally were like, okay, doctor h. Okay. Then what? Then what's my next question?
Speaker 2:So I really wrote the book about pathways for conversations and categories for connection so you'll never get lost starting or continuing a conversation again. So I'm seeing a lot of just, okay, we've lost this art. And part of it is texting the phones. Like, we share a lot of memes and TikToks and you know? But we're not good at personal interpersonal connection.
Speaker 2:And it really is the number one professional skill young people can develop, how to build a rapport with someone, especially when they're on the job market. They need to be able to talk to people, and they're not good at it. So that's what I'm seeing.
Speaker 4:Okay. Okay. So as we try to make better conversations, we need what you call 3 fresh goals for a loving conversation. Can you share a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:Okay. By the way, I love this interview because we are doing the right thing. We're starting with the mindsets. Mhmm. Then you gotta figure out what your goal is even before you get any practical training.
Speaker 2:Like, a lot of people are like, just give me the tips. What do I need to know, Heather? Well, actually, you need to get your mindsets right. So you got the 4 mindsets, be curious, believe the best, express concern, share your life. But what is a conversation for?
Speaker 2:Now the 3 fresh goals. Now this is confirmed in scripture, but also in kind of the meta analysis I did of the social science research. A great conversation with a loving connection will do 3 things. It will end in encouragement, helping someone grow personally with whatever goals they're setting, and the best is to marvel, which is really weird, getting people to a state of awe. Now how do you do that?
Speaker 2:Usually, it's recognizing divine activity or literally praising God for something, whether or not it's nature, whether or not it's something you're seeing. And the research study I read, took a whole population of very depressed, very isolated senior citizens. So this is the older population.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:They sent them out in pairs and made them do what's called an awe walk, meaning they had to talk to each other, but the goal was to discover something that made them experience awe. Now at the end of their awe walks, they reported less depression and less loneliness. So I just love that study about, hey, let's lead to awe, or let me help you grow, or let me encourage you. Now, what I'm seeing in the culture is what's called hate bonding. Like, you bond over what you hate.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. You bond over complaining. I didn't I just learned that term yesterday, John, hate bonding. Like, people try to bond with, let's complain, let's hate each other. Hate bonding.
Speaker 2:I know. Wow. So I told my students, like, look. What if it became joyful interaction? Lots of encouragement, lots of joyful speech, lots of, okay.
Speaker 2:What are your goals? How can I help you? That's what James Clear said even in Atomic Habits. Like, get close to people by working on projects together and then divine intervention. So if you're always thinking, where can this conversation end?
Speaker 2:You will not go wrong encouraging, helping people grow, or leading to a state of marble. And that's perfect for a mentoring conversation.
Speaker 4:Oh, man. No kidding. Encouragement, growth, and and I just love it awe. Right? Marvel.
Speaker 4:Marvel, baby.
Speaker 2:Great brain state. We're really happy when we're experiencing awe, and it's missing.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's missing in our conversations.
Speaker 4:Well, you mentioned, you like a shared project. And so, again, little self plug in order to be able to do I I I got to share with you a little bit about what we get to do with mentoring and project mentoring. And, man, because I just feel like so many teenagers and so many people just in general are are kinetic, and, you know, they're kinetic learners, and they're visual. And so I always say with with the ministry that I get to be a part of, it really instead of mentoring across the table, I'd like to mentor under a hood. You know?
Speaker 4:I wanna work on I
Speaker 2:love that.
Speaker 4:A project. I wanna work on a car with somebody and kinda give them that that ability of of maybe doing something that they never thought possible, that didn't even know how a thing worked, and yet we're kind of empowering them and encouraging them to be able to do a thing well. That's growth. And, man, it's just so important for us.
Speaker 2:What a great life skill. I I do a lot of that with baking with one of my daughters loves to be in the kitchen. And you're absolutely right. When we're side by side doing some hard, you know, elaborate recipe Mhmm. You can have the best conversations, and you're helping each other with whatever projects you have.
Speaker 2:I love that. And I love passing on life skills
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Teaching kids. Okay. Here's how you cook a meal for yourself. You know, here's how you fix a car. I love that you do that, John.
Speaker 2:That just makes me so happy.
Speaker 4:So another thing and I don't know if this is a tangent, but I I really do think it's right on with what we're talking about. And this is I believe that, you know, society has has really kind of championed the specialist so often when we can kind of think about that as far as, like, you just kinda take your your average 8 year old who's in athletics, and we say, oh, look. If you want to be an elite athlete, you really need to commit to a certain sport, and then that needs to be the thing that you do for the rest of your life. Well, what we're kind of also starting to talk about in some circles when it comes to what it means to be there for young people and kinda give them the tools that they need to become successful adults, more and more talk is centering on becoming a generalist. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I heard that. Right? And and I think that this is really interesting because it kinda hearkens back to a time when your average person just kinda had a general working knowledge of things in their lives. You know? Before technology became so complicated, they kinda knew how to fix things because they kinda knew how things generally worked around them, you know, the things that they that they owned.
Speaker 4:Again, it was it was less about having a disposable kinda culture where when something breaks, you either take it to someone who knows what they're doing or you simply throw that away, and then you just Amazon a new one. Right? Yes. Yes. You know, again, part of this conversation that I that I think is interesting is not really about even, you know, when when it comes to my context with maybe working with a skateboarder in the community and someone says, oh, well, isn't that nice?
Speaker 4:You can take this kid who doesn't maybe have much of a future and you can give him some skill and maybe they'll go to a trade school, and then they'll they'll become this, you know, master mechanic. And I and I always say, sure. I think that would be really good and very interesting. However, I think that there are kids that run the gamut and really people across the board that have just maybe not as had had as many environments to expose themselves. To just again, not about forming a specific specialist, but instead someone who can just experience a little bit of success in something that they're not really familiar with, and then that will help to inform the other areas of their life.
Speaker 4:And so they I love it. Right? They become critical thinkers and and problem solvers in that way. And so and also breeding community of saying, like, well, I don't know everything there is to know about this, but, you know, this guy does. And so breeding that relationship and and having a friendship that way, that's that's kinda some of the stuff that's our bread and butter with our ministry.
Speaker 4:And I love it. I love that you're speaking into some of these things to build community. And so in order to do that and even how we communicate, let's talk a little bit about your best advice for handling things like fear and self consciousness that are that are absolute conversation and friendship killers. Speak into that
Speaker 2:a little bit. Especially with young people. I mean, my daughters tell me and, you know, I have a lot of teenagers in my neighborhood. I love teenagers. I also love the middle school population, and they do say, okay.
Speaker 2:This is so awkward. I'm not gonna ask a question at the lunch table. Well, I love showing young people the research that people actually don't perceive you as awkward as you think they're perceiving you. They're actually not even thinking that. In fact, if you ask someone a meaningful question about their life, they're gonna end up liking you.
Speaker 2:The Yale Relationship Lab and other research studies I read said that we are severely, like, misjudging this. Like, we're thinking like, if I asked you a question, John, about your life, in my mind, I'm thinking, oh, he thinks I'm so awkward. He thinks I'm stupid. I can't believe, you know, he's judging me. No.
Speaker 2:Actually, you liked that I asked you a question. And the research even shows that even if it's an inappropriate question or, like, a sensitive question, you end up liking me more because I displayed curiosity about your life. So I share that research, like, with my daughters and other young people. I was like, look. Just take the risk.
Speaker 2:Ask a question about someone's life. They will like you more. They will feel close to you, and it gets easier. Just have a couple questions in your back pocket that you can ask people that will make people wanna talk to you. And so a lot of the book that I wrote was, okay.
Speaker 2:Here are 6 categories of questions you can ask. And that gives people a sense of confidence. And so and my husband is an introvert who doesn't think well on his feet, and he's really proof of concept. Like, once you get these strategies down, you're not gonna be as self conscious. You're not gonna be as awkward.
Speaker 2:So it's a risk. It's called a prosocial risk, and people will end up liking you more. Mhmm. So take the risk. Ask an awkward question.
Speaker 2:The more you do it, the easier it gets. And so I send people out, young people. I'm like, look. Sit down at the lunchroom. Ask people something really basic.
Speaker 2:People love to talk about the physical aspects of their life, which includes food. Say, okay. Tell me about this signature sandwich you had. Tell me the story about how you got this sandwich. If people will open up, ask about how do people sleep last night.
Speaker 2:People love to talk about how they slept. I asked my college students the other day. We were you know, when you get a class of, you know, college juniors, nobody's bonding. I was like, okay. First question, how's everyone sleeping?
Speaker 2:John, I learned more about lavender, melatonin, their Spotify playlist, ASMR. They went on and on about their sleep schedule. So the physical category is one of the 6 pathways of how to connect with people.
Speaker 4:Incredible. Okay. So, listener, this is where the rubber meets the road. Okay? We're 20 minutes into this conversation, and I think it's already gold.
Speaker 4:However, this is the beauty of of this equipping, and I think that doctor Holloman is is now going to be able to kinda share as we get into these specific pathways. But just to kinda remind everybody, these are the tools that are going to be in your toolbox that you can refer to before and during these all important times with your mentees. And so that being said, let's get into the best part, doctor Holloman. And and would you explain the pathways that you've discovered, these what you call the 6 conversations?
Speaker 2:Yes. Now this came from a conversation with my husband where where we were trying to help people who said, look. I just don't know how to have a conversation. Even if you give me the first question, I don't know what to do next. So my husband I was teaching a book called Being Human.
Speaker 2:And my husband said, well, what if we gave people 6 categories of what it means to be human and they could ask questions in any one of those categories? So that's the origin story. So the 6 categories of what it means to be human. So imagine you're looking at your mentee. They are social, emotional, physical, cognitive, meaning they're thinking something.
Speaker 2:They are volitional. Volition means human agency, the decisions they're making. They are spiritual. Okay. Most people only ask questions like, say, for example, in the emotional category, like, how are you?
Speaker 2:That's an emotional question. But, really, when you see someone, you can ask a question in any one of the 6 categories and you can quickly find out what your mentee likes to talk about. For example, I see someone. Hey. I haven't seen you for a while.
Speaker 2:Who have you been hanging out with? Social. I could say, hey. Has anything challenged you about your day? Are you struggling anything?
Speaker 2:That's emotional. If I did the physical category, I could say, hey. I haven't seen you for a while. Ask something about their physical bodies or physical spaces. Like, young people like to talk about their room, their spaces.
Speaker 2:I'll say, I haven't seen you for a while. Have you updated anything about your dorm? Oh my gosh. They'll go on and on about their space. Cognitive.
Speaker 2:I don't I don't love to talk about all the categories. My favorite question is when people say, Heather, I haven't seen you in a while. What have you been thinking about? What's been on your mind? That's cognitive.
Speaker 2:Volitional, hey. I I haven't seen you in a while. Have you made any major decisions? Volitional is about decision making, and it's actually a blessing to young people because I consulted a trauma expert who said that these kids get so overwhelmed with the decisions they have to make. So it is a profound act of blessing.
Speaker 2:You are blessing someone when you say, what decisions are on your mind? What what are you struggling with? Let's talk about decisions. Or how did you decide? So for example, you see someone, they have a great haircut.
Speaker 2:By the way, young people like to talk about their products. My daughters tell me, look, ask about the shoes. Ask about the hair. Ask how they got it that way. You could even say, I love your haircut.
Speaker 2:How did you decide to get that haircut? Or I love your Nikes. How did you decide on the they will tell you a great story.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So that's how you start the conversation. What I love about the pathways, you're never gonna get lost again because you have endless I call them permutations, but you have endless pathways to follow. So if I said to a neighbor who I hadn't connected with, hey. Did you go to the basketball? Did you decide that's Volition.
Speaker 2:Did you decide to go to the basketball game? He says, yeah. I went to the game. Well, a lot of people get stuck there, but guess what? You have 6 categories.
Speaker 2:I could say, hey. Who did you who did you go with? Social, Physical? I could say, well, you know, I know you've got those floor seats, but tell me how your body handles sitting on those seats. I'm getting older.
Speaker 2:Does your body ache? Ask about the body. Mhmm. You know, emotional. How'd you feel about that new coach?
Speaker 2:Anything. Just go down the list. How did you decide to get tickets? What have you been thinking about? So, John, it is a game changer.
Speaker 2:You're never gonna get lost starting a conversation or continuing it. And the reason why I asked, you know, Gary Chapman to write the foreword, who wrote the 5 love languages, is it's really a love language. You can really figure out what kids like to talk about. If you move down the list and you're getting one word answers, they probably don't like to talk about that category. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And, you know, in my professional life, when I'm in kind of high stakes conversation and I need a warm connection with someone, I'll kinda go down the list. I'll see what people like to talk about. But I was, like, in a salary negotiation recently, and the dean was on you know, he was this engineer. He's not very warm. He wasn't open.
Speaker 2:I couldn't find a way to connect. And I noticed that he had, on the Zoom call, he had a lot of land behind him. All I said, John, was, I noticed you have a lot of land behind you. I I did physical. I said, are you a gardener?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. What do you do with that space? 25 minutes later, my husband and I had an invite out to the cidery with he with him and his wife. He felt so warmly connected. So that's it.
Speaker 2:It's so easy. I bet you're like, why didn't anyone teach me this before? So that is that is the tool. The on the last thing you need to know is what to listen for. So I wanna make sure I tell you that before we end our conversation, but I didn't know if you had any follow-up about these 6 conversations.
Speaker 2:Did anything strike you? I feel like it's so easy.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. Yeah. Well, I think that it's again, I just keep going back to how how important this is. And I thought even even in listening to you talk about this intentionality because that's that's what I think it's really centered on. Well, more than anything, I think it's about connection.
Speaker 4:And so even even what you've discussed, and I know everyone would agree, there are powers out there in the world that are actively working to disconnect. Right? It is it is a spiritual battle taking place. The enemy comes, and what what does he do? He isolates before he attacks.
Speaker 4:Because when we're together and when we're unified, whether it's the body of Christ or our family or just people in the community, we're strong. We're strong against temptation. Right? And we're strong in our in our walks, and we and we see God work and move in really powerful ways. So when we're kind of aware of that, it makes me think about the mentor that goes into a a social situation that maybe initiates a relationship with a mentee or maybe even just kind of realizes, oh, this could be so much stronger.
Speaker 4:I I want God to really just kind of breathe some intentionality into this relationship. What you're doing is you're giving us that that ability to kind of categorize and to think about, okay. This might and I and I enjoyed what you said when you said, you know, one of these 6 might be kind of a a sticky situation for a mentee or maybe they don't know how to process or maybe there's something going on there. And then you kinda have to make that decision on, hey. Do I wanna push that?
Speaker 4:Do I wanna lean in on that, or do I wanna maybe maybe back off? I mean, is that is that fair to say? I certainly don't wanna put words in your mouth. But You
Speaker 2:mean if you can tell that someone's hesitant that they don't know how to answer?
Speaker 4:Yeah. You know?
Speaker 2:Some yeah. For sure. I mean, you don't wanna push people. And so what I love about the 6 conversations is they're really avenues to get into what people want to talk about. You're you're they're getting warmed up.
Speaker 2:And what you're doing when you're talking to people is you're listening really carefully to their core values. You're looking at themes that God is writing in their life. You're looking at things that stand out to you that you can say, hey, you just said that. Tell me more about that thing you just said.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you can when you notice hesitation, just keep asking questions. Listen for themes. Listen for core values, and then that that mentee is gonna feel so safe and loved and understood.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. Mhmm. And, again, just what you mentioned, I think that's what we go into each conversation with. Right? Like, we we kinda go mindful of the intentionality of that conversation and so that when you think, you know, what do I really want from this time?
Speaker 4:Well, it would be that. It would be that when I walk away from this time with a student, that they would feel those things, that they would know that they're that they matter. I you know, again, we talk about a lot of times, even with our body language of how we sit with our mentee, we might be bringing in, you know, all these cares of the world and that I believe our mentee has this way of not really understanding that we're struggling with, you know, all of these situations with other relationships or burdens that that all adults carry, but instead, they'll personalize it. Right? If we're if we're seeming distracted or or really not engaged, they're gonna think, what have I done?
Speaker 4:Like, why aren't I enough? And and that is such a such a terrible thing, but, obviously, young people, you know, are dealing with some insecurities and and as they're at their station in life anyway. So all the more reason why we kinda wanna come into this thinking, oh, man. I really want this girl to just know that she is loved by God and that I care for her deeply and when we say goodbye to each other.
Speaker 2:I think you're absolutely right. Giving someone your full attention is one of the greatest gifts.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Noticing things about them. And when you articulate things that you're noticing in conversation, you're the holy spirit's gonna give you insight into maybe things they didn't understand themselves. So the greatest thing I learned when researching this book, all the social science I read, I realized that nobody really teaches you how to listen and what you're listening for.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so if you were to say, okay, Heather, what's the number one thing you learned? It's what to listen for. And what you're listening for is core values that then you articulate back to the mentee. So for example, I was in I had a colleague that I was working with for the first time, and I needed to build rapport with her. I needed to quickly form a close connection, and I I really wanted to just build a good relationship with her.
Speaker 2:So I just said to her, tell me how your week has gone. Has anything challenged you about your week? And what she said was, oh, I turned in this one assignment. It wasn't my best work. Then I had to do this one curriculum thing, and I really didn't think it was excellent.
Speaker 2:Oh, John, she went on and on, and I noticed something. I noticed a pattern, and this is what I said. Every you know, I'm noticing, as you're talking, that you really value excellence. And I'm so curious right now. How do you recover when you feel like you haven't done your best work?
Speaker 2:It led to such a wonderful gospel conversation because his colleague said to me, oh my gosh. I do. I really do value excellence. I loved how you said that. I hadn't noticed it that way about myself.
Speaker 2:So I tried it again with another person that I was in conversation with. She was talking about how boring life was and everything was about whether or not she was bored or not or and I just noticed this theme of boredom. And every time she talked about things that weren't boring, I noticed a theme of adventure. So I said to her, I know why you're bored. Every time you're talking, I'm noticing that you really value adventure, and life does not feel good for you unless you're in an adventure.
Speaker 2:She said to me, oh my gosh. I do. I really do value that. You know me. And then you're able to go down the 6 pathways.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:How do
Speaker 2:you how do you decide your next adventure? Who do you like going on adventures with? You know, just go down. Mhmm. You know, how do you feel when you're on an adventure?
Speaker 2:So in terms of mentoring, I don't know if you've come across a lot of good training on what you're listening for. Because it's very it's a sacred space.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Like, what do you value? What when you're talking, I can tell you value this, and it's judgment free.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Which means, like, your value isn't better than my value. I just really know you right now. Now I can develop what God's doing in you because I know what your core values are.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I didn't learn that until this year, and I'm 47 years old. Nobody taught me what to listen for.
Speaker 4:That's so good. That's so good. So what I even get to pick up on what you're sharing even with that is I love how you give your mentee kind of a stage in order to share the good and the bad. What are they proud of? What are they struggling with?
Speaker 4:Whatever. For their voice to be heard is very valuable, and then we have the opportunity as a mentor to then be able to have that that amount of perspective. And as you said, put into words, be able to say this back to them, and it's almost like you're playing tennis together and you're volleying it back, but you're giving them, like, such a word of encouragement where they where they understand and maybe even in a different way because you've summarized it in a way to just say, hey. You value this. This is something that's important to you.
Speaker 4:So they feel heard, and then they also kinda just get a word from someone who can put it into words that they would have never thought possible. And that, I think, is also just an another really wonderful thing to be mindful of. Doctor Holloman, there there is a question that that comes to mind. I think of whenever whenever it comes to maybe being given some practical help or or some guidelines to initiate quality conversation or, you know, really be able to kind of maintain quality relationships. I think that there are some that struggle between the balance of how can I keep this relationship, for lack of a better word, kind of organic and casual, but also be intentional?
Speaker 4:If and I'm hoping you kind of understand what I mean. I've I've sometimes
Speaker 2:I do. I do. I mean, you're actually I've been I've done a lot of interviews and podcasts about this book, and a lot of interviewers say, this sounds too formulaic. This sounds like you've got an agenda coming in. What what do you think about this?
Speaker 2:And here's what I say. It's like learning how to play piano. I'm giving you all the notes, then you're free. You're free to make a symphony of this conversation. You're not pushing an agenda.
Speaker 2:You're letting the holy spirit guide you, but you've got all of these tools in particular, the biblical mindsets, the 3 fresh goals. And what you're doing is you're you're asking meaningful questions. And when you get those they they're called closeness enhancing behaviors. You're doing things to create relational closeness, which is gonna help prime the pump for that for whatever God wants to do next. It's gonna be so rich.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be so meaningful. And then you're just listening to what what people wanna talk about, what they reveal to you. And you're gonna be able to sense what God's doing. And so it won't it's not gonna feel like you're pushing this kind of, you know, pre, you know, pre formulaic thing. You're just learning a lot of the kind of skills you need even before you start the first question.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Is that kinda what you meant by that? Like, how do we keep this from being, like, formulaic and, like, you're pushing something?
Speaker 4:Yeah. 100%. Because I think it's also and, again, not to get off into this too much, but I still think this is such an interesting topic is is evangelism, you know, and Yes. In living our lives with intent and taking opportunities to share our faith. But, again, something that that I really value in in the ministry that I get to do, which which involves kinda meeting people for the first time and then initiating friendship even when it comes to, like, giving this kid a skateboard is that I want to live with intentionality, but I never want a person to feel like they are my project.
Speaker 4:Right? Or that Right. That in some way, I've kinda given myself, oh, I need to share my faith with 5 people today. Guess what? You were number 3.
Speaker 4:You know, that I don't really feel like that speaks well into things like value. And, again, we wanna we have formal relationships. Let's just say a mentor that goes to you know, that goes and signs off to be able to go meet during lunch at junior high. There's there's a lot of formality in that, and that's good because that gives us the opportunity for that intentional time together. But, again, what you mentioned and what I think that is very important is to understand that our our mentees and those that we're investing in, should also have a sense of understanding that, hey.
Speaker 4:At at the end of the day, this is also just John wanting to spend time with
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 4:Richard, right, as opposed to youth minister, you know, teenager, or professor, student, like, that that you'd in a sense, we want people to understand that we would we would wanna share our faith and share our life with them just on a human level anyway and that and that it's not about a number.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I love about reading the book Scent and 6 Conversations together. Because the number one question I get is, how are you able to talk to so many people about Jesus? So that's a regular part of my conversations. Now here's what I'll promise you. When you have the 4 mindsets, the 3 fresh goals, you're engaged in this wonderful conversation.
Speaker 2:It's never gonna feel like a sales pitch or a strange
Speaker 4:pivot when
Speaker 2:all of a sudden
Speaker 4:you're talking
Speaker 2:about Jesus. Guess why? You have a warm connection with someone. So like that professor I met when she was like, well, oh my gosh. When I don't do my best, everything falls apart.
Speaker 2:I feel like I'm a bad person. I can't get over that. She's like, what about you? What do you do? I'm like, okay.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you why I love Jesus so much because when I don't do my best, it doesn't even matter. And she was like, what? What do you mean it doesn't you know, it's just so it's like when I talk about Jesus, it's not like a shift in the conversation. It is a natural when it is my time to share. Now here's the problem when you're talking about a mentor mentee.
Speaker 2:One of the things I recommend is training the mentee how to ask meaningful conversation questions. So you've you've talked. Right? You're having your time. You're investing in their life.
Speaker 2:You're talking. At some point, I would love it if the mentee asked you a generous and meaningful question about your life to train them in the art of curiosity, believing the best. So sometimes I'll even say to young people, I've really enjoyed asking you all these questions. I cannot wait to see what question you're gonna ask me. Now when that question comes, it's not gonna be weird for you to immediately talk about the thing dearest to you, which is Jesus.
Speaker 2:So all the time, I'm able to be like, okay, this is this is what Jesus is doing in my life right now. You know, when I ask people what have you been thinking about? And they say to me, now again, I'm at a I'm sort of at a hostile college campus. So you imagine, like, these aren't you you would think I would be afraid. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But when I ask my colleagues, like, okay. What have you what have you guys been thinking about? And they throw it back to me and they say, what about you? What have you been thinking about? I could say, okay.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I'm reading the book of Sam first Samuel in the bible. I gotta tell you about Samuel in the bible. You know, whatever.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's so natural. Nobody's like, oh, this is weird. You're talking about Jesus all of a sudden. No. We have a warm connection.
Speaker 2:I'm sharing my life, and then people just ask the best questions about Jesus. It's wonderful. I mean and it's not weird. Mhmm. It's not weird because you've shared it's an authentic, warm connection.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? I wanna just put it out there to to all of us that at times in our lives when a conversation has gotten spiritual and we began to feel a sense of, you know, maybe our our heart started beating a little faster or we or we kind of struggle to maybe find the words. And I, you know, I I look back on those times or even when I'm talking with someone who in dealing with this issue, I just I remember that it really does come up from a place of, hey.
Speaker 4:We really don't wanna mess this up. Right? And so if that's I don't I hope that's not spinning the issue too much. But generally speaking, we we understand that it's important to share our faith and so that when we think, well, wow. You know, why do I feel so different when I talk about Jesus than when I talk about tacos?
Speaker 4:It's because I think on that level, we understand, well, this is this is an eternal situation, and and this, you know, that that matters.
Speaker 2:There's a weight to it. It does matter. There's a weight to it. And I love when I when my heart beats faster and when I get nervous about it because it's almost like, okay. God, I need you.
Speaker 2:Your holy spirit has to lead me in what to ask next. Give me wisdom and insight. Give this other person a spirit of revelation. Review you know, I go into intercession, John. I'm like, okay.
Speaker 2:This is a moment. But just so you know, one of the ways I take that pressure off myself is I regularly say to people, look, I'm totally gonna mess this up. I'm not the best at answering these questions. So if you get in a situation with a mentee where you're like, I screwed that up. I didn't do my best.
Speaker 2:How wonderful is it to go back to that mentee and say, okay. Wait. Can we go back to that conversation we had on Tuesday? Because I think I totally screwed that up. And I thought about it, and here is a better answer for you.
Speaker 2:That communicates humility. It communicates thoughtfulness. It communicates dependence on the holy spirit that we don't know everything. God's word is our authority. We're not experts in everything.
Speaker 2:Kinda like what you said about being a generalist. Like, I'm not gonna have the answer to everything here. I just love Jesus. Here's my story. You know?
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So just to relieve the pressure off of you know, it doesn't depend on you. It's really the holy spirit. It's Jesus drawing the people. He's just you're just cooperating with him, going on this adventure of seeking and saving the lost.
Speaker 4:Amen. Goodness. And you know what? I I I really like the opportunities that I get in a conversation with a mentee or someone that I that I'm ministering to to be able to say, hey. Can we talk about this next time that we that we get together?
Speaker 4:That to me is just a really wonderful quality to say, first of all, that that I'm looking forward to that, but then we're gonna have another conversation. Right? So even sometimes when maybe a question gets posed that we just don't know about a matter of theology, something in the Bible to just say, oh, I'm I'm so glad that you asked that. I'm gonna spend some time looking that up this week, and then and then that can be something that we talk about next time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then And I can't wait to know what you think about it. Yeah. You know the idea of outdoing one another and showing honor? One of the coolest things to do for young people is treat them like adults.
Speaker 2:They love it. Mhmm. That's one of the number one things my students say is I love that you treat us like we're colleagues, like we're peers, almost. So what to honor someone and say, I think God's gonna give you insight into this and you'll you'll probably be able to teach me. I think it's one of those ways where you outdo one another and showing honor.
Speaker 2:You know, if there was one Bible passage that I think summarizes how I deal with a mentee mentor relationship, it's Philippians 2. Take on the interest of other people. Outdo one you know, value others above yourself. Outdo one another is Romans 12. You know, take on their interest.
Speaker 2:Empty yourself. Take on the nature of a servant. It's such a humble, like, hey. We're together. I wanna learn from you.
Speaker 2:I want you to learn from me. Something amazing is gonna happen in this conversation, and I can't wait. Mhmm.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. Okay. Doctor Holloman, what do you mean in your book when you say that we all have a default conversation style?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. This is good. Do you okay. I'll ask you. Do you find that when you talk to certain people, you always talk about the same thing and they always talk about the same thing in the same way?
Speaker 2:What I would love this is what I'm learning too is I love to talk about ideas. Right? I'm a theologian in my heart. I love you know, I'm a a PhD academic. I love ideas.
Speaker 2:I can quickly exhaust people, especially young people. So I've broken out of that default conversational mode. Instead of asking about ideas, I've learned to ask the teenagers in my life social questions. Tell me about your friends. I've learned to talk about physical.
Speaker 2:Hey. Have you been to any new restaurants lately? I do not love those categories, but they do. So it's a way to show love to them. The other blessing of helping people break out of their conversational styles is, you know, my friends who just love talking about Penn State Basketball or Penn State Football, go ahead and start there.
Speaker 2:Physical. It's a physical category. You know, you're talking about the world of sports, whatever. But try to break them into other categories like the volitional. Okay.
Speaker 2:I gotta know your decision making process here. Tell me what went into you deciding to get season tickets? Because those are so expensive. How'd your how'd your family decide that? So that's kinda what I mean.
Speaker 2:I mean, you do you like talking about physical processes? Like, you're working with your hands? Like, what's your favorite thing to talk about, John? 100%.
Speaker 4:I I love
Speaker 2:That's my husband. That's my husband.
Speaker 4:I love talking you know what? I also just love talking to people that are passionate about whatever it is. For some reason
Speaker 2:Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I think
Speaker 4:I just I think I just like to be around excited people. You know?
Speaker 2:You value that. I love see. I mean, I'm listening for your core values. No. But I think if I were to ask you, like, okay.
Speaker 2:Tell me about these skateboards. Mhmm. You know, you'd probably go on and on and on, but I'd quickly find out, like, what you just said. You actually, at the end of the day, you can talk about anything. If there's passion there, if there's you're just curious about the world.
Speaker 2:I love that. Like, if I started to talk about my passion for strong verbs and the semicolon, you'd probably go right there with me, which I deeply appreciate. So yeah.
Speaker 4:You got it. Hey. Listen. This is a connection that we have. You you know, I was an English major.
Speaker 4:Yay. But but really only because it was, like, my favorite language. You know? Like, it's it's the only language
Speaker 2:that did you go to school? Where were you at?
Speaker 4:I went I was a I I got my bachelor's from Texas Tech University in Lubbock. Yay. And those were some of the best years of my life moving from Houston to Lubbock. The sunsets, right, the sandstorms, the tumbleweeds across the college campus. I I will tell you, in all seriousness, the Lord really used that city in that in that school and that experience in a in a very, very strong way as a as I moved there as a 20 year old.
Speaker 4:So love those years. Love the little the little English department there. And by the way, I even saw just a few days ago that they built this incredible English and journalism department, and so, you know, guns up.
Speaker 2:I love that. Now I know if we had, like, another hour on the podcast, I literally would go down my list of 6 of 6 pathways. I wanna know, like, are you still in touch with those English majors, the alumni? That's social. I wanna know the decision making process, the volitional.
Speaker 2:How in the world did you decide to be an English major and did your parents pressure you to go pre med or pre law instead? Like, we are gonna have the best conversation. We we would have the best conversation today, John. I gotta know all about it because the English major is getting a bad rap right now. I also would love to know, like, your favorite book that you read as a student.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I just have so many questions, but I know the podcast does have to end at some point. But I love that you're an English major.
Speaker 4:Unfortunately, it does. You're right. Yeah. Well, thank you for that. I mean, I am yeah.
Speaker 4:And, you know, just give me a give me a a cup of coffee, doctor Holloman. We can sit, and I'll talk to you about Larry McMurtry just as much as as I get the chance to. So I'm for some reason, I love naval novels and westerns. Elmer Keaton and
Speaker 2:Do you? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I I don't know why.
Speaker 2:Novels and westerns? Yes.
Speaker 4:I know it's a little bit of a Ron Swanson. You know? I think he even mentions
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. I love Ron Swanson. I'm a huge Parks and Rec fan. That's hilarious.
Speaker 4:Well, what's interesting is is I don't I'm a land lover. I I would rather not go as as adventurous as I am in other areas. I don't really wanna be on a boat, but for some reason, I find it interesting to read about people on boats and and sunken ships and and all that. So who knows? Well, this this has been a joy I love it.
Speaker 4:To to hang out with you and talk. I've got one more question for you. You know? You end this book with a chapter called the greatest conversation about God's questions in the book of Genesis. Can you tell us just briefly what did you discover there and why having conversations with God matters for how we relate to others?
Speaker 2:Well, 2 things. I thought deeply about how well, kinda what you said, how much God values relationships and unity and togetherness. And I thought, gosh. It sort of encoded in the way we think about God as Trinity, how how important relationship is. And I just was kind of in awe of thinking about God, thinking about the way we see Jesus modeling conversations in the gospels.
Speaker 2:And when I thought about it, I said, well, what are the first questions ever recorded? And I got really excited when I thought about the way God kind of this greatest conversation idea. Because in the book of Genesis, the 3 questions that the first recorded questions are, you know, where are you, Who told you you were naked? And what have you done? And when I and you love metaphor.
Speaker 2:I know that. I thought about, okay, what do these questions really symbolize at their deepest level? So where are you is okay. God wants to know where are you in relation to me? Where are you?
Speaker 2:Where are you sitting right now? You know, who told you you were naked? I love that question because it's sort of like who are you authorizing in the culture to tell you who you are? Where is your sense of identity coming from? Who told you this?
Speaker 2:If it wasn't me, it's not right. You know what I mean? Who told you these things about yourself? And the last one is, you know, what have you done? What I love about that is God saying, look, I came to rescue you from being enslaved to sin.
Speaker 2:When you when you're able to tell someone, look, what have you done? Meaning, that conviction of sin, that knowledge, like, okay, I am separated from a holy God. I need Jesus. It's just a it's almost like a beautiful moment where God's like, okay, let's let's get to confession here. And I'm gonna show you a picture of me covering your sin.
Speaker 2:You know, he literally clothes Adam and Eve. Mhmm. And I just love that. And when you think about the way God engages people with questions, it just means that he's a God of loving conversation. A lot of young people don't know they can actually talk to God.
Speaker 2:I talk to God through the Bible, with my prayer journal. I literally ask God questions. I wait and see if the Holy Spirit will guide me through his word. I listen. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Is this too mystical for you, John? Like, when you think about having a conversation with God, is that how you think about it?
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Again, I Okay. Good. You know, I hear intentionality. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Not at all. No. No. I mean, I think that it's life is such a wonderful balance of understanding, you know, what is happening in the practical world, but my goodness, you know, everything is connected. And then I know that's kind of this general basic thing to say, and what does that even mean?
Speaker 4:But, again, I I think you're speaking into that very thing, and it's it's for us that God has given us the opportunity to understand that he's at work in so many ways. Right? And and kinda so behind the scenes. And so why wouldn't we wanna be aware of that at at every given moment? Understand that everything is sacred.
Speaker 4:Sacred, right, and that everything is connected in that way.
Speaker 2:Well, it is. And when I start my day with a conversation with God, love and connection, it does fuel what happens next. I wanna keep in step with the spirit. You know, that's Galatians 6. I wanna ask God to guide me in my conversations.
Speaker 2:I really believe that it's no accident where you live, where you work, the people God has supernaturally placed in your life, and you're gonna be an agent of blessing and proclamation. You're gonna God's gonna send you to have loving connections with them, and you're already gonna be in the right mindset. You're gonna be controlled and directed by the Holy Spirit because you spent that time in loving conversation with God, not just in the morning, but all day long. Like, when bad things happen, I'm like, okay, God. What are we gonna do about this?
Speaker 2:Like, I'm constantly calling to mind
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:The presence of God, my union with Christ by the Holy Spirit, and knowing that that's what God wants. We're not alone.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It's the best conversation.
Speaker 4:Mhmm. Goodness gracious. That's some good stuff right there, you guys. I mean, again, when when the storm hits, instead of saying, oh, God, where are you? But instead saying, oh, lord, you know, let's what are we going to do now?
Speaker 2:What are we gonna you're never alone. What are we gonna do about this? My friend my friend who values adventure texted that to me. Mhmm. Like, you know when you're with someone and they're like, I don't know what to do about this.
Speaker 2:I don't know what to do about this. You say, la la la. You got your pronouns wrong. It's what are we gonna do about this. You're not carry Jesus is carrying your burdens.
Speaker 2:You've cast your cares upon him. His yoke is easy. His burden is light. You're no longer what am I gonna do about this? You say to Jesus, what are we gonna do about this?
Speaker 2:Or even, what are you gonna do about this? Like, I cannot handle this. What are you gonna do about this, Jesus? So he's right there with you.
Speaker 4:Amen. Okay. Doctor Holloman, tell me a little bit just as we wrap up about this new book that you've got coming out.
Speaker 2:Yes. Oh, by the way, you can go to heather holloman.com, and there's a bunch of free resources. I give you my 100 favorite questions to ask students. Your mentor your mentees are gonna love these questions. My favorite one is, what's your favorite way to procrastinate?
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh. Your young people love to talk about how they waste time. Okay. You can go to heatherhalladman.com. Also get an excerpt and a free little worksheet I made about conversations that I think your mentees would love to.
Speaker 2:I care so much about young people that I actually wrote my very first middle grade novel. It's called This Seat Saved. It comes out June 6th. And it's about a little girl who can't find her seat in the lunchroom, the 7th grade lunchroom. She knows she's not popular.
Speaker 2:You journey along with this girl, and then she realizes she's already at the best table with Jesus. You will cry. Mhmm. The kids will cry. It's just a beautiful story based on my book, my nonfiction book, seated with Christ, living freely in a culture of comparison.
Speaker 4:Amazing. Well, listen. Is it okay if that we just kinda make a verbal contract right now that when this book is released, we'll have you back to talk about it? Oh, I'm
Speaker 2:coming back. Okay. Yes. And I would love to come back because I think we can talk about how to use novels in men like, I love the idea of, hey. Read this book.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about it. Did you ever go through this? People have deep wounds. I can guarantee you that your mentees have a wound of the middle school lunchroom. I've never met one person who said they do not remember that moment of not being at the popular table.
Speaker 2:And even if you were at the popular table, some of those people will say, yeah. And I I feel really guilty about it, what I did to people Mhmm. In order to protect my popularity. There's so much to discuss in this book. So I would love to come back.
Speaker 2:Email Janice, my publicist. She will get me right on.
Speaker 4:Amazing. Amazing. Well, that's that's a deal. You know what? It reminds me of the old saying that we are nothing more than the collection of books that we read and people that we spend time with.
Speaker 4:Now we know theologically speaking, we are much more than that. However, it's an important fact. And, yeah, you're right. You know, I can remember just about every book that my dad he was kind of the he was he would kinda bring along the next novel, Johnny Get Your Gun or Jaws or Anything for Billy, which was in fact my first Larry McMurtry book. But I can just remember these being I knew the impact when he said, hey, read this.
Speaker 4:And so, man, it's just about that investment, and that was always a joy for me too. So I I get excited to think about a mentor being able to say you know, sliding a book across the table and saying, this this was important to me, and I think that you'll you'll really find it important to you too.
Speaker 2:Yep. That's right. That's amazing. This has been great, John. This has been a great conversation.
Speaker 2:I'm so grateful that you and honored that you had me on the podcast.
Speaker 4:Goodness. Thank you. It's been a it's been an honor for me as well. Look forward to the next chance that we can talk. And again, blessings for you and your family and your work.
Speaker 4:We're so thankful that you're producing such encouraging and equipping materials, doctor Holliman. So just been a joy to meet you.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Same to you.
Speaker 4:We want to remind our listeners that to go pick up doctor Holliman's resources that she has been so gracious to give in her website and to go purchase one of those books as well if you would, so that you can be equipped and encouraged. We wanna remind you that you can mentor.