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South Asian / Desi dads in their 40s stumble through fatherhood, midlife, and cultural chaos — with laughs along the way.
Welcome to NaanSense! 🎙️ A podcast where dads in their 40s share the funny, messy, and real side of parenting, culture, and aging.
We overthink, overshare, and make each other laugh… usually by accident. It’s equal parts wisdom and NaanSense! 🙏🤪
What you’ll hear:
--> Honest convos about fatherhood & parenting in your 40s 👨👧👦
--> Real talk on South Asian / Desi culture, identity & family life 🌏
--> Midlife curveballs — health, aging, and everything in between 🎂
--> Humor, storytelling, and the chaos of being dads 😂
📅 New episodes weekly-ish — humor and fun semi-guaranteed.
Okay. So, Emad, you were telling me about Eid. What happens? It's it's just a little different like Seattle, you know, it's really progressive. And I had not been to this like big mosque that they have here. So, we go for Eid Namaz. And I tried to go through the front door and I got stopped because the main door. Yes. Yes. So, like the guys go through the side door. Like I just was like, "Wow, this is really weird to like have to go through this like strange side door and then walk like 50 extra steps." So it was kind of nice. How did it feel to be a secondass citizen? Yeah, I was like I had some empathy. I It was kind of nice to see that that there was like, you know, the main entrance is for the women and set set up a little bit differently than most places. So, well, that's nice because our mosque, which is not a full mosque, has stairs. You know, if you're if you're disabled or if you have any issues, good luck. You just can't even make it. You can't even make it.
Hello everyone. Welcome to NaanSense!. I'm your host, Ahmed. Think of this show as a way for dads to open up, talk freely and openly about what it means to be a dad. I'll be joined by my wonderful dynamic duo, Twiddle D and Twiddle Dumb, Sajid and Emad, who happen to be uh some great friends. NaanSense! has a South Asian flavor on things, so we generally overthink, overshare, and occasionally make each other laugh. Uh so join us as we stumble through all of this nonsense. Guys, can we talk about something that is amazing that I found like last week? Have you guys seen the show Bait? It's the new Riz Ahmed show. Oh. Oh, yeah. My wife was telling me about it. Guys, as like Pakistani western people, it is so spot-on. So, the premise is Riz Ahmed is an actor and he's trying to be the next Bond. And there's all this like is it B is this based on a true story? No, dude. I doubt Oh, maybe. That'd be amazing if it was, but I highly doubt it. That would be so cool. Um so and is this like all the unraveling that comes with it including like identity stuff and you know being a py you know which in obviously in British context is like a heavily term like Yeah. Exactly. our own people. Yeah. And yeah like YouTube's going to demonetize this. Seriously. Suck it. I mean let's it is what it they said it like every four minutes on the show. Literally that's like the n word over there. I thought, "Yeah, but it's not here. We can say anything we want over here." I guess that's true. Is this show that popular? I have not I I am not on social media, so like that's one thing I miss out on, and I'm okay with that. I have been direct messaging you about this in our group chat, so I know you ignore most of that. So, quick uh editor's note. Today's topic is a bit more serious in nature. I know our show tends to be unserious, but we do want to cover topics that, you know, cover all aspects of life. So, some of those aspects being quite serious. So, today we'll be talking about grief in general. And before we actually start and open up this conversation, you know, I figured I'd give Sajid some airspace here. Yeah, thank you. So, for people that know me closely, uh I lost my mom exactly two and a half months ago, January 15th, and uh we're recording this early April. So, uh yeah, that's the big news. I think there's probably a lot more to unpack outside of that, but she battled dementia for a few years uh before she passed, and it was obviously a very tough thing to deal with. When someone has dementia, it's kind of like you lose them twice. first time mentally uh and then and then the second time physically. So, it was uh it's been it's been a process, but you know, she was almost 81. She was 10 days shy of her 81st birthday. She lived a pretty long life and before her dementia and illness, she lived with so much love and warmth and, you know, I think a a really beautiful life. out. Well, I I appreciate and I'm sure our fans will appreciate your vulnerability here because I think what you have to share is going to be quite revealing for for many men and many dads out there. I want to afford the same opportunity. Obviously, your circumstances are different, Emad, but perhaps you can shed light on on loved one that you've lost. Yeah, I mean I've lost my younger brother who was a year a year and a half younger than me when I was 21 and he was 19 a car crash and I don't often talk about it. It's actually been very hard for me to talk about it. my whole family doesn't talk about it as much which I think we'll go deeper into like how like they deal with trauma and grief but also like there have been other parts of my life where I look at my parents now and I feel for them in so many ways differently because the kind of trauma they've had to deal deal with right like I expect my parents to die but for them to like go through the trauma and having their kids pass away is just one that like just is very gut-wrenching to feel it from so many different perspectives. I greatly appreciate your vulnerability also. And yeah, man, before we move on, Iman, just the fact that you're talking about it is huge. I know we've talked about it only probably once or maybe twice the whole time we've known each other and you know, we're close friends and I know how hard this is for you. Obviously given the recency of this, what was your perception of grief going into it versus now that you're dealing actively dealing with loss of life, you know, for a loved one? How is it on the other side? Like is it different? Does it match sort of your expectations? Like what is that gap like? So I think it's really different in in a lot of ways than I thought it was going to be. like I thought so my parents just to give you guys a little bit of context my parents are about 10 to 15 years older than other people my age. So I came late, you know, I was I like to say I was a miracle or a mistake, however you want to, however you want to see it. But me and my brother have 14 years a lot of things. So many things. So many things. So my brother and I are 14 years apart and it's just me and him and I'm the younger one. So my whole life since I was a kid and this is probably something that needs to be unpacked and I hope to work on this but since I was a kid I had this fear of losing my parents especially my mom and I was also extremely close to my mom. So I guess having that this you know my whole life I kind of like thought about what it would be like when they when they passed away when my mom passed away in particular but I didn't think about the part where they'll age and that part is actually really complicated and messy and like just really challenging. So in some ways I don't know if it's like a you know in Allah's all knowing all wisdom approach like it it's almost like there's a preparation of sorts that you know her her illness created that when when she passed like I am and I was extremely sad extremely like at times melancholy and I get hit with it with waves of it but I also have this like you know there's this like sense of she's in such a better place, right? And I think having faith and having that part of it is so vital. At least it has been for me. I want to hear from you a little bit more about this process of aging. Like did you feel like there was a moment in time when that process started for you? Like man, my mom is starting to age or was it slow and built up to? It was. It was mostly slow, but there was a moment eight years ago when she had a stroke. And I think that was a real turning point. And while the dementia didn't manifest too much initially, I think if it was there, it was accelerating a lot after the stroke. So the last 8 years have been a certain level of stress and tension, but in particular, the last 3 to four years have been particularly heavy. And then she spent about nine months in hospice care. So hospice luckily was at home which was in her home which was really I think a huge huge blessing. I guess in those last couple of years I I can imagine you experienced a whole host of emotions you know sadness anger from time to time but were there moments of joy also and and happiness that you were able to capture and and hold on to? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's spot on. I think a lot of sadness. Candidly, I would go to their house and um I'd be with them and then I'll just go to the bathroom and weep because it was just like so difficult to kind of see her in the situation she was in. But the joy was very much there too because even though she had dementia, her core would still emanate and her core was like beautiful and sweet and loving. So, you know, she would like even if the things she was saying were not so coherent, it was something like sweet that she would say or she would like laugh or whatever. So, that was one thing. And the other thing was when she would see my kids, the way she would light up and the way she would hug them was just, you know, something I can't describe. The last picture I have of her actually is her hugging my oldest son, which I try to like grab real quick. And so so yeah, there's definitely a lot of joy and I think it's important to hold on to that. And the other part is that I hold on to like when we look at the pictures, I like looking at the pictures from before her illness, you know, before it got really tough. And I think that that type of stuff helps. When uh Ami passed, I got so much love and so much support. Being on the other end of it, I'm like blown away by how powerful that is. Like I almost had to there were a couple of friends who I went back and apologized to because I was like you know when your mom passed away. I wasn't really there for you. Like I showed up for like the you know funeral and you know kind of did the obligatory things but like I recognize how much it goes how far it goes when friends and loved ones really show up. So that's been another another kind of big thing propelling me through this. It's it's truly like you know pushed me through this whole process. How did your uh kids take it? I'm also curious like we also went through watching our grandparents pass away and our parents were in the spot that you might have been like I I wonder how your kids took it. How you how you think of it going back to when you were a kid. Yeah. One of the things I was really worried about and felt anxious about we would talk to our kids a lot. I would get in wood. we would really try to have kind of real conversations with them but in a natural way and I think it's another thing where Allah gives strength or Allah gives guidance and provides the wisdom because yes they feel sad obviously we we talk about how it's sad but they also are very understanding more understanding than I thought they would be and I was really worried about my older two my youngest one and this is one thing that makes me sad is my mom never really registered my youngest one as my as my child. You know, he's four and a half, so that's a long time. But she but she did, you know, she would light up, you know, whenever he was around. And she registered him as like this sweet, wonderful kid, but she didn't, you know, she couldn't remember his name or whatever. And and actually, you know, different than what you described, Immad, I don't really have a guide book on that because all of my grandparents except for my nani passed away before I was born. So, you know, essentially I don't have memories of anyone. On top of that, my parents immigrated here in 1981 into the US. So, all of their uncles and aunts passing and even some of their parents, they weren't there for that. So, they were far away. Okay. So, I did see my dad and my mom grieve, but we weren't going to funerals very often. I mean, I remember there were like four or five big community funerals that we went to in the ' 80s and 90s, but those were like, you know, not that common. Now, the people that immigrated here in the 70s, 80s are, you know, starting to starting to uh pass on. So this wave is something actually kind of new that we didn't experience. Even my parents didn't experience it in the same way. And you know, we're kind of figuring it out. Yeah. Um, you know, for for me, my mother-in-law passed just about four years ago. Yeah. And remember, you know, it's hard, right? Like my my son took it, you know, he was obviously resilient and, you know, in the moment he didn't show any emotion. He was kind of numb to it. But what came out was it was the summer time and he was at a new summer camp and generally he's a pretty outgoing, easygoing kid. Yeah. But that week he completely hated his summer camp. Uh he didn't want to go there. He didn't want anything to deal with, you know, the location. So much so that that location has now just become like this uh kind of figment. The piece in his imagination that is associated with uh Amy's death, right? And that time period. So he um you know he doesn't want to go to that location. So you know I I think kids deal with it in different ways. But yeah, a big part of it though is they're mirroring us, right? So if we are outward and emotional, which we can be, there's no issues with that. I think kids will interpret that and yeah, you know, be emotional. Also, I think if we are numb to the initial reaction of death and stuff, I think kids will emulate that. You know, they're leaning on us to to understand the world around them to model. Yeah. I I'll tell you guys a I have to tell you a funny story. Now's the time you choose for a funny story. I know it's not it's not it just shows you like how kids think about like I was telling my daughter who is now five. I'm like hey like this relative like I watched them fall down and took they took kind of a bad fall and I didn't feel like it was good and like immediately she's like so did they pass away or what? And like just like nonchalant just like said it. I'm like oh man like I was like so just a matter of fact, right? So yeah, I think we have some sense of it it's people get old and they pass away. But there's something innate there. It's a it's I think nature's way of like having grandparents go first and there's some some beauty to that that like prepares and obviously like things go out the window when somebody young passes away, somebody in a traumatic way. I mean, even before my brother's brother passing away, I remember going to a funeral of a classmate whose brother passed away, like when I was in high school. Yeah. And it's just hard, way harder to like first experience that. And obviously, like it goes in the depth of despair when it happens to somebody you're so close to. Yeah. It's it's so heavy. So, Immad, if if you don't mind, have you talked to your kids about your brother? So, my brother passed away in Georgia when he was at school and recently we visited with my family and we were we went to his um grave grave site and I remember just taking some time and obviously like it was one of those times where I couldn't like I I was just like crying as as as bad as it gets. But my my kids saw that and they remember remember me remember remember me like in that mode which I think is very looking back at it I feel bad because I feel like they don't you don't expect to see your dad crying and not just crying but like really really crying and I think it was a bit shocking for them. So like they still remember it like they'll remind me like and it's at least I should say my younger one will my older one still a bit reserved and doesn't want to bring it up like realize it's like that hey like it's a personality thing too right? Yeah. Not just age. Yeah. So I think they get it and we always talk about his name was Ibad and was we we talked about Ibachu. So they they they know obviously and I have to give credit to my wonderful wife who like makes sure that they have they're really well aware. Mhm. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like they're still this they're still processing it of like what this means and how this happens and what this means for their dad. Yeah. Totally. I think what's so interesting is, you know, the way that we kind of include our kids and major elements and I think this goes for most DY dads today and I think most dads at large is like the form of parenting is to include your kids in all the various parts of life and activities and you know show them you know what life is. And you know, I think I have a very specific memory of when I was 8 or 9 years old of, you know, the first death that happened in, you know, our family was my cousin's dad passed away. And that was a really, you know, just a big moment. It's it's like a poor memory. I was I was probably eight or nine years old. And um you know I just remember that you know we I didn't even my like my parents kind of suppressed and hid the fact that my uncle had passed away up until the point we drove in the car from New York all the way to New Jersey. And you know there once I started talking to my cousin I learned that his dad had passed away and I think that's in complete contrast to how we are raising kids today. I think of course you know every family does things differently but generally you know Saja to your point earlier it's like this is a new thing that we're dealing with right like you know experiencing this first wave of immigrants that you know came here is now passing on and we as you know the new generation have to sort of understand what death means for us you know what our emotions are and then also how to translate that for our hits. Yeah, there's a big societal component here, right? In terms of aging, parents and just people aging, community aging, them passing. There's a lot of logistical concerns or emotional considerations. The first time I saw my dad cry was I think I was four or so and I still remember it. So, I your kids will remember that probably forever. Um, for sure and maybe I think it can be a good thing. So I saw my dad cry because his brother died. M uh but he wasn't in uh America, he was in India. And I saw my dad crying and um I saw him just being really emotional. And my dad is very traditional in a lot of ways. But when it comes to showing emotion, he has been really in in a very nice way surprisingly good. Uh I had a lot of moments when all of us, you know, cried and hugged and that kind of stuff. So it's it's interesting how that kind of can paint your experience. And my dad would always go do gussell, you know, the cleaning of the body before it's buried. And it's actually really a kind of a beautiful kind of process. So there's, you know, even if he didn't know people, he would just kind of volunteer and help. So there was always this like conversation around people passing away around us and if anything that probably made my fear of my parents passing more heightened. So there was that. But yeah. Yeah. And I think that's so atypical. So I guess you know you mentioned hugging and crying. Do you think men in our culture have the space to grieve in that way? I don't know if our culture is any different than other cultures. I think men in general are expected to hold things, carry things. In my experience, I've seen a lot of my relatives and community members that are men grieve. I think the difference might be like there's this there's this initial phase right after kind of someone passes where I think that is okay and people kind of do that and they hug it out and they and they and they cry and they break down. But then after that we kind of get into something called spiritual bypassing. So, one thing I've started doing is go to grief therapy and that's been really helpful for me. So, I've been doing that since since my mom passed. And spiritual bypassing is something that's come up and essentially and I and you know I'm not an expert but essentially it's rather than kind of sitting through the emotions you kind of say all the right things spiritually like uh you know alhamdulillah or you know Allah give this person Jenna so on and so forth which you should do of course you should like make the duas and all that is really important but then there's the other part of it of like sitting with the emotion and being like uncomfortable with it. And I think that's where men and maybe women both, I don't know, but I think men especially are expected to like move on a little bit. And when you're when someone asks you like, "How are you doing?" The right answer is alhamdulillah. And then you know that's it. You kind of move on. I mean that that's a part of the right answer, right? Like if someone really wants to know how you're doing, you should feel comfortable saying it. And it can be in any culture where men some and like for me like the oldest child like you're expected to be strong for everybody else so that they don't break down. And I think that is not necessarily helpful and is counterproductive because you're sitting with your whole family and everybody's trying to be strong for each other and not sharing any real deep emotion that you're should be feeling and sharing. And I think I found that really really hard because and and this is where like I don't think my I hope my family doesn't get to like hear this but like we like never never went through that process of like just we always acknowledge and every year like you know there's the birthday and the p that my pass like that and then it's just a hey like just a call to my parents and like hey how are you doing your and then that's it like we don't we don't like share our emotion or like We all know that we take take some time to like weep and cry like I guarantee each one of us is doing it but neither my sister nor my mom or my dad like we won't go there with each other and I don't think that's necessarily healthy you know that for is that for any particular reason that you all aren't able to get there emotionally or do you think that's just walls that have been set up over time those are the walls right like it's like hey you got to be try to be strong for so that others don't like everybody stays strong And it's like is that the right solution? I don't know the answer. Mhm. Both of you have brought up the role that faith plays you know being Muslim and you know there's this concept of subur right which often times gets you know translated as patience but it's such a it has such a deeper meaning right how you know maybe you can shed light on how faith has shaped sort of your your experience in in dealing with loss and remembering your loved ones. I think that there are lots of moments that happen after somebody passes away that almost everyone I've talked to like goes through these moments of like having dreams and having to meet somebody that passed away recently or getting to see them again. And then the second thing that like makes me my f at least gives me a lot of hope and joy is being able to see my brother again, right? like I it g I I I hope to see him again one day like and it makes that fear go away in a sense that like there's a bright side to death which is like I get to meet some of these people and I haven't seen my brother in a very long time and it'll be I tell my family like if that happens like don't worry like it'll I will be like there's a really happy side to that to that for me uh as well you know yeah Sajid how about Yeah, I I think you're totally hitting it. So, my mom only passed away two and a half months ago. So, it's still really new and I don't know what 2 years, 20 years will look like. But as of now, uh I would say that this experience has definitely brought me closer to faith. And the sense of hope, the sense of this is not it. And we get to reunite in the next life is really, really powerful. this experience for me. Also thinking about, you know, how her illness was a way for her to shed away any any mistakes or, you know, things that might be negative for her because there's that there's kind of Islamically speaking, there is a certain purification process that happens when someone goes through that. So kind of all of that in context. Yes, it's it's really powerful. The other thing is just very tactically speaking, last Ramadan in 2025, Omar Solomon came out with something called the Barzak series. And that I watched it before my mom passed, but in many ways I was preparing, right? Uh and then I started watching it again when my mom passed. That has really helped me. And um like multiple people have told me, make sure you watch the Berserk series when when my mom passed. And I was like, I'm on it, you know. Thank you. That's actually good tactical advice. Um because it really in in a in a clear tangible way. Uh and in and in terms that make sense to us as kind of American audience explains how the afterlife works. in particular the barak right the the time after you pass but before the day of judgment so I think the other thing IMA I think I think it's like you have to find the people you can lean on because Mhm it's maybe too intense to do it you know with the core nuclear people I mean in my case too yes when my mom passed my brother my dad my hobby we had a lot of moments of grieving But since like we don't do as much of that because it's like it just kind of bubbles things up, but I lean more on like my wife, you know, um or friends. Totally. And I I'm very lucky that like my wife actually knew my brother growing up like Yeah. because like we knew each other. So it's really cool. And the one what one other part that I think is really interesting that is not often talked about. I mean this was your first Eid after your mom passed away. I want to hear like you probably had lots of emotions, right? I have every single event like I remember at my own wedding. Yeah. My brother's best friend, he was there and like like in the middle of the wedding I was just hanging out with him and just start crying like I'm like oh man this is very tough. like I expected him to be here, you know. Yeah. So those moments get really hard and I think as those people that you remember seeing like and again it goes back like I have seen my mom for every Eid of my life and to not have her one E like is going to be a very different experience you know man again I'm sorry about what you know how that bubbles up and like what you shared about your wedding Eid was tough Eid was really tough Ramadan was tough so actually the first day of Ramadan, there was all this kind of enthusiasm. There's like so much good energy right at the beginning of beginning of Ramadan. And for ear, we had my dad over and my wife's parents over and you have the empty chair, right? And that is like that that hit me really hard. And that's very tough. as we were breaking fast and I'm making like a dua. I'm like looking around and I and I, you know, really felt her presence missed and I started breaking down. So, I like booked it upstairs so I wouldn't, you know, disrupt the whole thing. Not that I was trying to like hide from my kids or whatever, but just so you know, it it wasn't it didn't seem like the right moment. And then on Eid, we were at my brother's house and then my wife is like, you know, the cemetery is not that far from here. Like, let's just let's just make a stop. And I was like, no, no, you know, I think like let's just go, like, we'll come back. It's just like been a long day, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, no, I think we should go. And I didn't realize how much I needed to go, you know, see my mom's um grave as as much as I did. It was like so it was weighing on me the whole day and I think I was just going through the motions and then we go there. And while all five of us were were there, the the only ones at the actual grave at that particular moment were me and my oldest son. At that point, I just really like started crying. And my my son, who like we were just kind of like had our arms around each other, he just like pulled me in and like gave me the biggest hug and just like hugged me while I wept. And you know, to our points earlier about kids and how they manage and like they kind of know in some ways, you know, there's something innate there. or something like like in that moment he was taking care of me and I was I was like you know totally out of it. I think kids past a certain age like they are like essentially fully grown adults like they can co they have cognitive cognition that we underestimate the autonomous Yeah. I agree. Yeah. before my mom passed. I thought after, you know, once she passes, I'll just be like broken for many weeks or months and I just like, you know, my mom and my has is gone, you know, she's not here anymore and this is so finite and it's just so painful. But after it happened, I'm realizing that when Allah gives you strength, right? So there's that part of it, but on top of that, the this like feeling of what would my mom want me to do? She wouldn't want me to be like sitting in this and just like, you know, she would want me to do the best at whatever I'm taking on right now, right? So, um I think I think that really is like something that propels. Also, there's so much to take in from that. I guess like one thing I I I want to kind of touch on also is how hasn't community not shown up for you in in your moment of vulnerability? Like what has been a delta, a miss, something that you know you wish that it hadn't been that way? That's a big one. Emma, while I think of Yeah, I have I have some thoughts here. Yeah. I want to hear you. I I have to say, you know, when my mother-in-law passed, there were a few aunties and uncles that I was quite disappointed in. Um, you know, not not being there for my father-in-law and giving us like lectures about what we could have done better to care for my mother-in-law. I mean, there was an active lecture. Serious like this happened? This happened like, you know, and I found it so preposterous. Like there was one auntie that lectured my wife before my mother-in-law passed on what she should be doing for my mother-in-law's care, which was absolutely so out of this world, so uncalled for. And it made me really angry without context. I'm sure without context, right? And you know, daisies are the masters of having no context, right? They have no tact, no chill. And you know, I and I don't hold a grudge, but you know, I I think aunties and uncles do a really bad job in our community of just being there and letting things be and understanding where other people are and where they're coming from. Like there's this weird notion of like expectations that are placed, you know, from our community. This is, you know, that they place on you. And those expectations were being relayed to my wife in her moment of extreme pain and loss. And you know, I just found that to be so so out of place. So, um yeah, it I haven't had a good experience with aunties and uncles and I think this is more of a generational thing. Dude, I'm sorry. That sucks. Like any advice like that or lectures, that's a that's a real bummer. I I think the part that probably overall I'm pretty impressed by how the community came, including older members and the prior generation. And there's also this like just kind of saying the words that they're supposed to say and then moving on and it feels a little like scripted, but people also don't know what to say in that moment. So, I think everyone should get a pass, you know, except for like some really egregious [ __ ] that you know. Totally. I mean I I I generally I generally don't give passes but that's just who I am. Yeah. Yeah. We we see that we see that. Um, you know, I I I want to say like I feel like I don't have any issues with any thing. Like I don't know what the counterfactual would be, but I do say I do think that like for how much faith in being prepared for death we are we say we are or at least I say I am. I am like so illprepared because so all the work that I should be doing in like my trust and will and making sure like it's as low overhead for anyone to deal with like I have done like very little preparation and I think break that down you haven't done your will and trust I have not done my will and trust and I need to like like we're like we we keep saying oh we got to do this like it's like let's be a PSA yeah exactly Emmad actually uh wants to live forever like Brian Johnson. So this is why he hasn't planned he's an infant or trust. The guy is an infant. He's an infant. Okay. So, you know, I'm curious you you've experienced all these different emotions over the last couple of months and obviously a mods for you for for quite some time. Can you guys share something random uh or maybe like a humorous thing that's reminded you of you know your you know your mom Sajid or or your brother Ahmad's well there's something that we always would talk about in respect to my mom even before she passed. So when she saw something that was not exactly to her liking, instead of saying anything negative, she would say something different. And that has like become such a thing like our whole family, my kids, my in-laws, like everybody, you know, like we'll say something different. And that just like is a trigger for like in a in kind of a fun way remembering her and showing showing love to her. Yeah. I like how it's become like sort of like maybe a new family tradition. Yeah. How about you? Any any specific things that kind of bring laughter or or joy or something funny? So my brother is just a very like silly person. He would like just do pull pranks and like crack all the dad jokes that you you know you can imagine to the point where like you know he showed up to events wearing a Spongebob tie and I see so much resemblance in my sister in both my kids the way that they so there's not a day that I'm not like reminded about him anymore which is really fun and cool to see. So it's it's it's kind of nice and like is just I remember when he passed away at some point after that I just like thought to myself that hey like I will I will try to laugh twice as much and try to get try to live the joy that he would want to live. And I feel like over the last it's been what 21 years since this happened and I I am not only trying to live that but like seeing that in my sister and my two kids is just so great. That's beautiful man. You know another thing that you just said that like I'm happy to hear is you think about him every single day. I think about my mom every single day, but it's only been 75 days. And I kind of sometimes fear that like, you know, do people stop thinking about their loved ones as much. And I never want that to happen, right? Like I always want her to be front of mind for me the way that she has always been in my life. And yeah, I I it sounds like you know, you lost your brother so many years ago, which man I like losing a mom is one thing, but losing you know, a brother in a tragic situation is like so heavy. So man, well, I mean I look I'll as much as I say all of this like like you know this is very tough for me but like I also get to see my parents and who lost a kid that was 19 years old. Yeah. that they like that is like the next level that like and I see that every time I see them right like I see their grief like you cannot meet with them without feeling the grief pouring out of them almost every day and that's tough it's so tough the only thing and my wife like she she she's the one who's like observing this whole family from the outside and the only time she's like Man, I've I've seen joy in your parents is when they hang out with our kids, but other than that, man, it's just tough to like watch, right? And it's hard not to like be in it with them, you know? Like it's just it's that's the and I I don't know how to deal with that. I I mean I think that we're going to carry this grief and this is a they're normal parts of life but then there are like parts of life that you're like I don't want to even go there of like what it could feel like. Yeah. So I you know I guess on on pulling on that thread like what how do you how do you navigate others through grief? Like how do you manage and and navigate your parents? It's hard. I don't know the answer to this. Like I don't I think it happened so early on. Now I realize this. I didn't realize it. Like I was just a kid. I was a 21-year-old kid when this happened to me. And yeah, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to like how to be there for my parents who probably needed me a lot more than hey, I was there for them. So, it's been really hard to like I know I can hold space and I know the feelings and the emotions that anyone who has lost somebody close like I I can feel it but it's been hard to like give some because there's nothing you can do to like get rid of grief. Like I think that's hard like not and that's not fair. I think that's that the concept of spiritual bypass that you're saying like I think that's not fair to like try to like heal, right? Like you have to like I think that's a part of life that you kind of have to be okay with. You can't go have to go through it and maybe you go through it for a long time or forever. My wife was very close to her mom and her mom unfortunately passed away at a very young age. you know, she was barely into her 60s when she passed. So, it was, you know, kind of very, I wouldn't say abrupt. Uh, she had been dealing with, you know, you know, a chronic disease and and illness for a long time. So, you know, but nothing prepares you for that moment. And you know, I think for me my biggest, you know, something that I had to learn was that you can't just talk and impose your own emotions onto the person that is grieving, right? Like sometimes, and she would she she told me this is like sometimes you just need to let me be. That is such a that's such sage advice. Just because someone is experiencing some emotion, that doesn't mean that you have to provide advice or you need to make sense of it. What's more important is that you let them experience that emotion and let them go through it and help them help them through it. And sometimes helping them through it is just letting them experience it. You know what's interesting about what you just said is your instinct was kind of like the auntie that you were complaining about earlier and that you wanted to do something right to help and auntie's reaction is bad. Your reaction might be more loving and thoughtful but still that's not what's needed right then. What's needed is what you describe maybe space or maybe a bite to eat. I don't know. like it's like a very there's no like right way to grieve but I think one thing that I've learned is giving people space in a way that is actually uncomfortable you know it's like the silence in the room the awkward silence like sometimes you need to pause yeah awkward space for grief it's like what I said about apologizing to friends who's lost especially a parent I realized how un like emotional I was about it maybe with them or supportive. Um you know our guy Zean for example showed up for me when I lost Emmy in a way that like you know he did like little things because he's like he went through it like only a few years ago and I think you only know after you've gone through it I think is kind of part of the part of the issue. And one thing I I I think it's an interesting this this is a very cultural thing that I wish we did differently whenever I and I haven't been to an like a non-Muslim funeral yet but at least like watching from movies or observing like there is their funerals are very much a celebration of life plus grief grieving. ours don't seem to have that secondary component where you bring a lot of the memories and like people like it's not a natural thing. At least I haven't observed it. I don't know how if it's been different here for you all. Dude, that's a really good point. And actually another example of my wife knowing I needed something without me knowing or asking for it. So we had Ami's funeral. So, we got together at my brother's house a couple of days in a row, but then she helped organize this, we called it a dua and remembrance. And this is at my house. Ahmed was there. Immad, you were out of town otherwise I know, you know, I would have seen you. Um and like most of the people didn't know my mom but came out of love and in um and like celebrated her, you know, made dua for her and then celebrated her life like really genuinely. I love that. I feel like this is Yeah. People came up and were like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've never been to something like that. And I was like, yeah, I don't know. And like we had neighbors there. We have, you know, Muslim non-Muslim. This should be a start. I think we should like show up for each other in a way that like Yeah. And credit to to your wife who got this going. I feel like this that's a really good practice to like propagate. But yeah, I didn't know that I I would appreciate it as much as I would. And like Salman was there too, who's you know, not on camera, but is obviously our producer. And like everyone showed up at like different like uh ways of like showing love and support. Like I remember someone pulled me offside but like he said some things to me and like they just really stuck. Wow. He you mean Mr. Producer was yelling at you for for doing something wrong? Yeah. He was like, "Hey dude, you know, can you like fix your lighting on the show?" Like I think that's what he was talking about. Like dude, come on. My mom just died, bro. Give me a break. Yeah. Like let me give me space. Give me space. Yeah, give me some space. Give me some space. No, I think that's a um I think that's a wonderful note to end on is I think we should be celebrating life more often than we do today. You know, life is precious. Our loved ones are even more precious. Uh here's to celebrating uh them more often. You know, a couple of, you know, quick closing thoughts. Grief really doesn't go away. It's something that just becomes a part of you. Um, and it helps you move through life. As men, uh, I think it's really important to, you know, sort of recognize that we've been conditioned to being stoic and, you know, this macho man or or macho personality. But I think it's it's okay to show emotions. You should show emotions. You know, you should cry, you should be angry, you should be happy. And above all, you should celebrate th those loved ones that are near and dear to you and those loved ones that have passed because I think in all of this, your kids are emulating you and you know, they need to see that range of emotion if we're here to create better human beings for the future. Before we break, sorry Emma, one really beautiful idea related to everything you're saying that someone shared with me. There's this uh person named Bel Hooks and she talks about how death allows us the freedom to love someone perfectly. And really the idea is that all the love you have for the person becomes just uncomplicated in death. And I think that's like a really liberating idea. That's uh yeah, it's really beautiful. That's a very deep and very deep quote. Something I wouldn't expect from you. Have there been any good resources? Any other resources you would recommend? I'm so glad you mentioned that there you're seeing um a therapist maybe. Is that Did you mention that? That's been huge. That that's been great. Seeing a therapist I think has helped me a lot. And outside of that, talking to a few like key people that I lean on a lot and then going on walks like I started going on hikes and walks like way more. Good stuff. Well, to both of you, I greatly greatly appreciate your vulnerability. I think it's it's necessary conversation. So, I greatly appreciate both of you. To our audience, I hope you take something great from this conversation. As always, I'd be remiss to not say, please rate, like, follow, and subscribe. We are at Nonsense Show on Instagram and on YouTube. Also, we want to hear from you. In what ways have you dealt with grief or, you know, other elements of loss? We are nonsenseow@gmail.com. Anyway, until next time, one last thing. One last thing, make dua for Ibad and my mom. Tons of dua for for Ibad and Saj's mom and for all the loved ones that we have lost through life. See you next time. Bye.