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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Hey, so today's episode we were going to just have as one bigger episode, but we've decided to split it into two parts.
So
This is the first part of the episode and then next week we will be releasing the second part of the episode just to give it more complete
uh conversation.
So hope you enjoy.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn.
We are so glad that you are here.
As always, let's start the show with a question from Scott.
Let's get right into it.
Today's episode is on puberty and I feel like I have a ton of questions and I also asked listeners through
Instagram to list out what they want to hear from you.
And I've sort of created this list of questions in order of hopefully something useful for people in the end.
And what's interesting, actually, I found very few people asked for specifically how do you talk about like this?
Like one specific thing.
How do you talk to your girls about periods?
And how do you talk to your like there was no specific thing that they wanted us to tell them.
It was more about how do we even have this conversation and feel comfortable doing so
And like when should we do it?
Right.
So Jess, as a parent and a therapist, have there been any unexpected challenges that you have
seen in having the puberty discussion in our home versus the advice you've given online and through therapy clients?
I think
For the most part, because I have taught sexual education for so many years and body safety for so many years
A lot of it does come really natural to me.
I feel like for the most part I have been quite confident to have these conversations with our kids and we can go through why.
I think the one thing that did and does still bring up some feelings in me is having the sex talk.
That's something that I've had to reflect on.
Like why do you feel so uncomfortable to have this conversation?
And I think the biggest reason that
in my reflections I've found is that I just I wanna keep my kids innocent for so long.
And there is something that I have this feeling of that just comes up for me of like, well when I have these conversations, am I gonna take that away
And I know that's a fear that so many parents have and a fear that we will address.
Obviously there was quite a few questions around that.
Mm-hmm or comments around that.
Like how do you have these discussions and then also keep your children from feeling
First of all, like all of a sudden they're bad kids because they start to have feelings when they have puberty and like different feelings and urges and that kind of stuff.
And it seems like parents are worried about their children feeling like
they're no longer good.
And it's because of what they've taught them.
The innocence is no longer there.
And I would say that's less of my worry because I think the way that we'll talk about sex with our kids, it won't make them question their goodness
I think I'm more so worried of like now you're gonna view this world and you're gonna understand things that you didn't understand before.
You know what I mean?
Like you're gonna understand
Oh, when I walk past a store that sells bras and there's a girl in a sexy bra.
Like you're gonna start to make these connections that right now it's just a girl and a bra.
Right?
Yeah, oh so pretty.
Oh yeah, exactly.
Like for our little girls, we walk past a lingerie store and they just think it's the most beautiful thing they've ever seen.
So pink.
Oh mom, you should get them all.
You know, like they just think it's the most beautiful thing in the world.
Yeah.
And the more I reflect on that, it's like I just want to hold on to their littleness and preserve that.
And we'll talk about this, but
I have to have these conversations with them in order to preserve their innocence.
Because if we don't, as parents take the lead on that, they will find out these things.
They will start to understand why the bras are not just bras but a whole sexual thing, right?
But I want them to know that from me first.
And that helps protect their innocence.
So
That does help me when I'm starting to feel that way.
Another common thing I guess that I saw in the questions we were receiving was that parents felt like there was this delicate balance or dance they had to play.
between providing information, being informative, and not overwhelming their children.
Because it's like like you said, it's opening their eyes to something that they didn't realize existed before and now they can kind of see it everywhere
So from your experience, are there subtle signs in your child that most children will show that suggest they're ready to even have the conversation about puberty and the sex talk and all that kind of stuff?
And again, I know it's not like a one-done type situation, but is there are there subtle signs where they're ready for the next stage?
And what even are those stages?
Yeah, so
Can I just back us up just for a minute, just in case people haven't heard our other episodes where we talk about this?
But my approach to the sex talk, to the puberty talk, anything related to body safety is small conversations that happen over time.
So historically, if you're listening to this when you had the sex talk, if you even had it when you were a kid
It was probably like a one-time, super awkward conversation with your parent.
Unless your parents were a little bit more um, you know, progressive or understanding of these topics.
It probably was like a one-time conversation you had.
It was super awkward if you even had it.
And that was it.
And that's what we're trying to avoid doing.
There will still be probably that one kind of more awkward for you conversation that we'll talk about that, the actual sex talk conversation.
But what we want to do is have small conversations with your child over time.
And so that starts in infancy and toddlerhood and preschool age, you're telling them about their body parts in a very neutral way.
They're learning about it just like they would an elbow or their hand.
And you start having these conversations over time.
Something even like the period conversation, I think a lot of
Parents feel like that has to be this one big conversation that we have before our child has their period.
I would like to see that as an evolving conversation over time, right?
Maybe your child finds pads in the bathroom and you just have a very casual conversation about what it is.
Yeah
And slowly as they get older, closer to the age that they might actually have their period, right?
So you asked about signs of readiness.
There's two different signs of readiness.
There's the sign of readiness that your child's asking questions related to the topic.
So if they're old enough to understand enough to ask a question, we want to be able to give them a factual answer.
I think parents often are afraid.
So let's say
our daughter were to say, Daddy, what's a period?
They know what a period is.
But if they were to ask you that and you feel so uncomfortable, you're like, oh yeah, I don't that's not something for you to know.
And you just shut it down.
Your child knows enough to ask you the question that tells us that they deserve an answer.
Now you don't have to explain every single thing about a period to them.
We like to think of it like a small factual answer, something to give them, because they'll stay curious.
So then if they're asking you and you don't answer, then they'll go ask a friend and they'll go ask someone else and they'll get an answer, but it might not be factual.
Right.
And if you don't have an answer in the in the moment, you might say, wow, that's a really great question.
Tell me a little bit where it's coming from, because it's coming from somewhere, right?
They heard something, they saw something.
Let the child
Answer that.
Yep.
Right?
That's a good idea.
I wouldn't necessarily think by default to do that.
Yeah.
That should be your first response.
So if your child says, Daddy, what's sex?
Oh, tell me more, you know, where did you hear this word?
Oh well I heard about it on a show that you were watching.
Oh okay.
And what do you think it might mean
Right.
So first ask them where get curious.
Ask them where they've heard about it.
Ask them what they think it means so that you can correct anything.
Right, because they might say, oh, I think it means this.
And it might totally be wrong.
So once you have all the information, then if you feel comfortable in the moment answering, you can
If you feel like you need a little bit of time to just sit with that and come up with the answer, you might say, I am going to answer your question, but I just need a little bit of time, but I will come back to you.
The other thing is that sometimes if you have multiple kids in the home, like we do, kids might ask in front of their very little siblings questions like, why is there naked people I saw on the bus, you know?
And maybe you're not quite ready to have that conversation with your four-year-olds who's overhearing, but you want to for sure have that conversation with your 11-year-old who's talking to you about it.
It's okay to say like, hey, yes, we'll definitely have this conversation, just not right now
But within the day, maybe at bedtime or something, you circle back to it.
Yep.
Okay, so can we go back though?
Yes to Sorry
What are the signs uh that they're ready to be given more information?
So one you said is that they're just asking questions.
Yes.
But I feel like some kids won't do that
So we have appropriate conversations per age.
Okay.
And we also have the question asking.
So if your child's asking a question, they're ready to hear an answer.
Maybe not the full answer, but they're ready to hear 'cause I can imagine like a three, four year old, like our four year old.
She has or would ask, like where did babies come from?
How how did the baby get in family member whatever aunt's belly?
How are you gonna have that kind of conversation with them?
Like, they're asking, but are they ready to receive all of the information?
Exactly.
So where do babies come from?
There's varying stages of answering that question, kind of depending on your child's readiness and your child's age.
So if you have a four-year-old ask that question, where do babies come from?
I might, I did, answer our child and she asked that, oh, in order to make a baby, you need one part from dad.
Like in that scenario it was dad and mom, right?
So you need one part from one parent, you need one part from another parent.
and they swirl together and they're put inside of a mommy's uterus and that helps to make a baby.
And that was enough for her to be like, oh okay, so you need something from one parent, something from another parent
They get mixed together and it makes a baby.
Okay.
And you would use the term uterus?
I would use the term uterus.
But our kids know uh you may not know this, but our kids know what a uterus is.
It doesn't surprise me that that is the case.
I feel like I have not been a part of that conversation then.
No, well I just had that conversation like a couple days ago when we were on the way to see a newborn baby.
Oh, okay.
So I wasn't there when again that goes back to we're having all of these small conversations, right?
So I've already
told our kids that the uterus is the squishy part underneath your belly button inside your body.
Right.
And I've already told them that when they were growing inside of me, they grew in my uterus.
My uterus got bigger and bigger
I've already told them that babies come out of a vagina or they come out of a small incision that's made in a belly.
So I've already given them all of those pieces of information just slowly over time, like when they ask
about questions about when I was pregnant with them, right?
And just very casually I've had those conversations with them.
I've told them about the uterus.
I've told them about birth.
So when they asked, how does a baby get inside, it wasn't too alarming to them to hear, oh, you need one part from one parent and one part from another parent.
I mean, I literally labeled them.
I was like, you need an egg from one parent and a sperm from another parent, and they get swirled together and then go inside the uterus and that's how a baby's made.
So
Now they have that.
Again it's those small conversations over time that will evolve.
So that eventually when you're having, let's say
the actual sex talk, then we're talking about how those parts come together to form a baby.
But they already have the other information and that makes it a lot less overwhelming for them because we're s like
There's building blocks in order to have the conversation eventually about puberty or sex or whatever, because it's all been talked to them.
Like they they've been slowly growing their knowledge over time.
Right.
Okay, so just to reiterate, you're saying they're either asking the question and you give age-appropriate answers, or they reach a certain age and you are the one as the parent.
providing them with the information, like having that talk with them.
Exactly.
I mean I can see that I have a few questions about that, but we'll get to that towards the end
I looked up a bunch of research articles before this episode too, and it seems well documented that children today, for a myriad reasons, are going through puberty much earlier than previous generations.
So I was kind of wondering like how does this impact the way you have talked to parents about having the discussions and like counsel parents when they want to discuss puberty?
Mm-hmm.
And how is that different from
Let's say what previous generations have had to do.
I mean that's assuming that previous generations really had much of any of this discussion.
Yeah, I think we have a lot more information out there now about how to have the discussion
From my talks with people of how they learned about puberty, I mean there's varying things.
There's like I was talking to someone and she just said, Oh yeah, well
My mom said, Yeah, you'll get your period just like your sisters, probably same time.
And that was the whole discussion.
And she had to learn everything through like watching her sisters and stuff like that.
You know, and then I've heard from people that, oh, my mom just gave me a book
And it was just on my bed one day and I had to read the book and I learned everything I could but there was no conversation.
The book just appeared on my bed and then that
was that.
So that was a lot of what the conversation was, right?
I think parents wanted to have the conversations, but they didn't have the information as to how to have those conversations
Right.
I think now we have more information and and we're able to talk about this more with our kids, right?
So in terms of children entering puberty earlier, I can't speak to the biology of that, but that is something that's proven that
We're seeing girls have their periods earlier and earlier.
And so that does mean that we have to have those conversations earlier.
Yeah, it seems like based on the articles.
A bunch of scientific publications I was reading and they were saying that it's several years younger than previous generations.
I've heard from many followers because I've been talking about this over on Instagram.
that their children are yeah having their periods for the first time as young as age eight.
And so that does infect us as parents because we need to then have those conversations earlier because we want our children to be prepared for when and if that happens
to not only themselves but their peers.
Right.
Right?
So let's say that happens to their best friend at school and they have no idea what that is, that can still be really concerning and confusing for a child.
Well and I think my initial thought is the fact that
kids are going through puberty earlier?
Yeah.
Like are they even developmentally ready to have the discussion?
Because their body is going through things that maybe their brain just is not able to comprehend
Yet.
Yeah.
Fully.
I think that's a really important thing to talk about.
And then not only are they going through puberty earlier, but they are being exposed to things earlier as well.
Right?
So
Cause you're even talking about having age appropriate discussions with your ch your children.
But let's say our daughter who
is eight, has her period.
Like is she fully ready to have the conversations that you would have otherwise said are
more meant for like an eleven-year-old?
Like developmentally ready.
Yeah, developmentally ready for that.
It's so tricky, right?
Because developmentally, maybe not.
But also if we don't
Like it it's the balance, right?
Like so you developmentally, she's eight.
Her job should be to be playing, to be having fun, to be curious about things, right?
We might start seeing the curiosity developing around age eight, around things like, oh
Okay, hold on.
Why are why do parents like kissing?
Or wait, why is this happening on this show, right?
They might start to pick up on those things naturally around age eight, but because of
the media that is so easily accessible to children and children are having devices, they're having access to YouTube, they're having access to pornography a lot easier than ever before, right?
Especially let's say if they're on a school bus with older kids.
They have older siblings.
It's much more likely that they're going to be exposed to that kind of thing at an earlier age.
It used to be the first exposure to pornography was usually age eleven
So then we were trying to have sex talks with kids like nine to ten, so that that was before age eleven.
But newer reports are showing that kids first exposure to
Pornography is getting earlier and earlier.
So it's it's becoming more that eight to nine age.
Yeah, right.
So developmentally, are they ready for that conversation?
Possibly not.
Do we need to have that conversation a little bit earlier?
Yes, we do, because their likelihood of being exposed is so much higher.
So it kind of sucks.
We're in a a not so great position.
Now we can have that conversation about sex-related things, but again, it's an evolving conversation, right?
So you're not gonna go straight into sex
But you can talk to your eight-year-old about safe and unsafe pictures and images.
You can talk to them about what to do if someone's showing them or they see something that makes them feel
feel scared or nervous or unsure.
You can talk to them about how it's not okay for them to be seeing videos of people naked.
So that you at least have that
Framework laid before you get into the sex conversation.
So again, that's like a smaller conversation that you have first.
Yeah, okay.
I see that
But that goes back to that original main theme that I saw where people were saying there's this delicate balance between overwhelming or informing your kids.
Yeah.
And it feels like we almost have to err on the side of we sort of have to overwhelm them a little bit.
Like that's the feeling I have at least.
So we almost have to overwhelm them.
with information that they shouldn't have to know, but it's important in order to actually protect them from the real real world.
Yeah, exactly.
There is a balance.
But in terms of the word overwhelm, I just want to talk about the way we have these conversations with kids.
Because I think it can feel really scary to a parent.
I know it's scary to me too.
that your child might be exposed to something when they're at school or at a cousin's house, that kind of thing.
And so because we're scared, we might rush through these discussions.
We might like quickly have them with our kids because we want them to have all the information
And that will overwhelm them.
I guess my initial feeling or thought is that maybe it's more overwhelming for me than it is for them.
Exactly.
Right?
Like
I am slightly overwhelmed by the idea of having the discussion and talking to them about it, but maybe it's like everything else.
We have factual discussions with them about everything else, so why is this any different?
And if a child feels so safe when you're having those discussions, so don't have it in the heated moment.
Don't have it when you're feeling anxious about it in your own body.
Right.
Like I picture this, like the time when our child's most likely to talk to us.
I feel like there's two times.
One is in the car.
Yeah.
So I feel like I have great discussions with her when I'm in the car and I can have trickier discussions because we're not necessarily face to face and she'll always tell me about her friend.
struggles or blah blah blah, whatever's going on at school when we're in the car.
So a drive is a nice time to have that discussion.
The other nice time is at bedtime.
Like I feel like she's always open, wants to chat with us about everything because she wants to leave.
Yeah.
She wants to stay awake
So what I imagine is creating an environment that's so safe.
And in terms of the overwhelming, again, go back to the small conversations.
So the first time you have the conversation, you're just talking about pictures.
Right?
Not a big deal.
Hey, just so you know, it's possible that you might see a picture of someone w without clothes on.
And if that time ever were to happen, I want you to let us know right away or let your teacher know.
Right?
It could happen in class.
People have access to devices.
Sometimes it does happen at school.
or on the bus.
So if it happens, please just let us know or let your teacher know right away.
Done.
Doing it in a safe and cozy way and your child's like, okay, like I trust my parents like and
And I even say to parents, like you're gonna teach your kids about road safety.
You're gonna teach your kids about safety in all sorts of areas.
This is just another way you're gonna teach your kids about safety, right?
And you're gonna do it in a calm way.
And then the next time you have a conversation, maybe a couple weeks later, you give them a little bit more details, or even like months later.
And so I think we can have the conversations in a way that's not a total like brain dump on your child of
everything they need to know at once, you do it slowly and you do it in a safe way.
And I think it will probably feel more overwhelming to you than to them.
Because to them it's it's facts that you're teaching them unless you come in with a whole bunch of emotion and fear, then it they'll feed off that fear and they'll know it's a scary thing.
So that
though you're saying do it when you don't feel overwhelmed by the idea of the conversation.
But I think a lot of parents would say
I'm always gonna feel overwhelmed.
I have the discussion, it's gonna be overwhelming.
So a couple of things to that, because yes, I agree.
I think for a lot of people, because of our own insecurity and the way that we were raised and the way that we were talked to about these things, like
we personally feel so uncomfortable.
So I guess two things.
One, try and roleplay it out.
You love that idea.
I hate that idea.
I still get people responding to our other episode like
Let's do more role plays.
Scott needs to get over it.
Uh but anyway.
I do think like if you have a co-parent or even your friends, like talk out what that conversation might look like.
And how it might evolve before you're in the moment with your child, just so that you're not stumbling over your words like you've practiced, you know what you're gonna say.
And then second, try and fake it a little bit
You might in your body feel like a hundred alarm bells are going off, but you're not gonna let your child know that.
They need to know that you're the leader.
They can trust you and they can come and talk to you about this.
But if you come in, you're like, oh yeah
There's like some really scary stuff online and like I don't want you to see anything scary and it's so scary and if you saw it like it would be really bad for you so please don't see it and vote your child's gonna be like, Whoa, this is way too overwhelming for my parent.
Like I can't come to them with
this.
So there is sometimes in parenting like to be the leader, we need to kind of fake being the leader even if we don't feel it inside and then release those feelings to your friends and be like
Oh my word, I just had this conversation, it was so stressful, but you know.
Yeah.
Don't talk to your kids about that.
I think being married to you has made me far more open.
about having these discussions.
Like I don't know by default I would have been like that, except for the fact that you are.
So I think that's been quite helpful.
I think for a lot of parents both are likely kind of awkward about it
Yes.
My concern is something we'll talk about at the very end of this.
But I think what you said makes sense and
There's a lot of shame around the discussion of puberty.
And even I've noticed in our short discussion here so far
It almost feels like puberty and sex are inextricably linked together and we go to the very like
We focus on the sex.
That's yeah, that's all we focus on.
Meanwhile, I feel like it's so much more than that.
And yes, that is a part of it.
Yeah.
And the urges are a part of it.
And body development is a part of it.
Yeah.
So I'll say we just finished creating our puberty toolkit.
And this was a discussion that we had a lot during that toolkit, right?
Because we're like, do we include sex in that or is that a different thing
We decided to not include sex in that toolkit because we wanted to have this toolkit lay all the framework for having those sex discussions maybe next.
So this is like your first step.
Right
And we didn't have it in there because we didn't want parents to only focus on the sex piece.
It sort of feels like yes, that is an important discussion.
But that's sort of the not final discussion, but that's towards the end of the whole puberty discussion itself.
Yeah.
You talk about your changing body and the things that you'll start to feel and
Your voice might change a little bit and you're gonna grow certain body parts that you don't have currently and And let's talk about how big that is for kids.
Right?
Like imagine being, I don't know, a 10-year-old
Child, let's okay, we'll go with girl, but we could talk about boys too.
And all of a sudden your breasts start developing.
It's sore, it hurts.
I have these lumps on my chest, right?
And maybe it's exciting.
I've said it's so gross and they do not want them.
Our girls are grossed out by it the idea of that happening to them, right?
So that's big and all of a sudden you have hair growing from parts that
ever grew hair before.
Your whole body's changing.
And the reason we didn't want to include sex in the puberty toolkit is because we're like, let's not bypass how big this is.
For kids, like we need to talk about the puberty too, right?
Like your breasts are developing.
For boys, like your voice is changing.
It's cracking all the time, right?
Like that's a big deal.
And
And you have hair and you have these new urges and oh well now I have my period and now I'm getting more erections than I ever have and I don't know how to deal with them and now I have wet dreams.
Like puberty is a huge time and I think
Historically, a lot of our parents didn't know how to talk to us about all these different changes that were going on in our body, right?
So let's not only focus on sex.
And I think to your point of sex being the big conversation
If you're having puberty conversations with your child, right, you're starting to talk about erections and when that happens, and then you're starting to talk about periods and boobs growing and all of these different things.
That sets the stage for having the sex talk in a lot easier of a way because now you've already talked about all these other things as well.
Mm-hmm.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, Thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent.
Education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read, facial cues.
views, you'll talk about safe and unsafe touch, and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff, like tickling that goes too far, and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
We made this course at Nurtur
First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak up sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
So check the course out at nurturedfirst.
com slash body safety and to save 10% use the code
robot unicorn.
And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
Have you noticed
patterns in parents.
Like let's say for me, I knew nothing really about puberty.
I feel like in school we learn nothing.
It seems like something we should have learned more of.
Mm-hmm.
I certainly don't know what girls were going through growing up, right?
So
My experience is limited and I feel like there was again this this sense of shame that was always kind of went hand in hand with
Any talk of puberty.
It's like this thing you should kind of feel a bit ashamed of and like these urges you should feel a bit ashamed of and Because it's talked hush hush.
Right?
Yeah.
Like every single kid is going through this in your class at the exact same time.
You're all going through puberty, but it's like, shh, okay, so we're gonna just take the boys out and have a conversation with them and like
At least this was my experience.
We weren't in the same class.
But like for me as a girl, yeah, we never learned about what's going on for the boys.
And we only exclusively learned about our periods, nothing else, in school.
For me, right?
Nothing about all the other body changes that was ha happening and the urges and sex and like we didn't learn about any of that
So what that does is like when we're saying it in secret and in hushed voices, it's like this is shameful.
Like this is gonna happen to your body, but it's shameful.
So like don't talk about it and don't share how you're feeling
and keep it a secret.
So now you're a parent and you're trying to teach it and you're like, wait, I have to have this conversation with my daughters?
Like I'm not allowed to know about periods.
Well I feel like
Our parents' generation was kind of the same, right?
Like they also wouldn't say were the most comfortable having these discussions.
So
I will say my mom did a good job.
Like she had the period discussion with me.
Oh yeah, okay.
In a good way.
Yep.
That was probably like ahead of her time to have that conversation in that way.
But even for her, I'm sure that was awkward because I'm sure she didn't get that conversation.
And she didn't have anyone to teach her how to have that conversation with her kids.
So I'm sure even the fact that she had that with me was probably very uncomfortable at the time
I would imagine.
Mm-hmm.
But thank goodness she did, 'cause I was the first kid in my class to have my period and I knew about it ahead of time.
So that was good.
Do you find that there's challenges that like I would say for us
the fact that you are so open about it and you have done sex ed courses and courses on puberty and all that and taught people about this, you've sort of forced me to become
less uncomfortable with the idea of having the these discussions.
But I wonder about let's say if you're a couple and you have two v
vastly different experiences growing up and you want to handle the discussion differently.
Like how do you overcome that gap?
That's a conversation I think you and your partner definitely need to be having, especially earlier on.
But I can imagine they w it would be easy to disagree on how to approach the conversations though.
I see what you're saying.
Like it'd be easy to have different like
One partner's like, no, like this is They don't need to know this.
They don't need to know that.
And the other partner's like, no, I want to teach him.
Yeah, that would be hard.
And I I can't necessarily tell you what to do except for have the conversations like and even things like you're already listening to this podcast, so that's a really good step, right?
And you might not agree
Right, but that could be the one person that actually wants to have the conversation.
Right, and the other partner's not listening to the podcast and doesn't want to.
Yeah.
I think it kind of comes to all things parenting.
Like can there be some things that you can negotiate on
and some things that are non-negotiable, right?
Like for example, the safe pictures thing.
Like to me that should be a non-negotiable that every parent should teach to their child as they're entering the school age.
Your child needs to know about safe and unsafe pictures.
That's non-negotiable to me.
Because we know how likely it is that they might be exposed to something that's unsafe and you want them to come to you.
Things like teaching your daughter
at least your daughter about a period.
I would be teaching my sons about it too.
I always joke to Scott that's one of the reasons I am sad to not have a son because I was looking forward to teaching them all these
things but at least with your daughter you're ha you're teaching them about periods far before they're gonna have their period.
I would say that should be a non-negotiable right so there's certain things that are non-negotiable if you feel so deeply uncomfortable to teach your son about periods.
I mean
I think reflect on why you feel so uncomfortable about that.
But at least you're teaching that to your daughter, right?
So so come up with things that
Like they have to know.
And also ask yourself, like if you're the skeptic listening, who do you want your child to turn to when they get exposed to this type of content?
Yeah.
And that's what I I would always say when I was teaching this to parents
Who do you want them to go to?
Because if they don't know that you know about sex and you know about unsafe pictures and you know about periods
If they don't know that you know that, they might just assume you don't know about those things or it's way too shameful and bad to talk to you about it.
And they will
Turn to Google.
They will turn to their friends.
They will talk to other people to find out their answers.
So I guess choose who you want your child to go to, but
For us and for the parents I teach, I want kids to go to their parent so that they can get accurate information and feel safe if if something ever were to happen to them
Right.
Do you feel we've ever had that kind of disagreement on what to teach our kids?
I don't think so.
Or like has there been anything that we've learned you've learned from our journey doing this together?
I feel like
More so you definitely came into it a lot more uncomfortable, right?
Like I remember even when we first got together and if I had wanted you to get like tampons or something, I
I feel like you would have been so awkward about that.
Like I I can't like remember a time, but like you definitely weren't the boyfriend who was like, oh no problem, I'll go out and get you tampons.
Like you probably would have been like, no way, I can't be seen
And I feel like I remember having that conversation, like what, you think people are are gonna think you're buying it for yourself?
Like like w what's the fear here?
I don't get it.
Yeah.
So you definitely weren't telling me.
See now I can just buy it on Amazon and put it in gift packaging if I really need to, you know?
So I think even things like that, like and for you, like No, I wouldn't be bothered by that.
And nor should you because you're gonna have three daughters and this is gonna be a big thing in your life, right?
But even things like do you know how to put a pad onto underwear?
Nope.
So things like that that I feel like because you were not the boy who learned these things, this is why I do think it's important to teach this to your sons
'Cause your sons are gonna have friends who are girls.
Your sons are gonna have friends who are girls who maybe their period leaks out of their pants and I would love for your son to be the one who says
Yeah, here's a sweater so you can cover your your bum, right?
Or so you don't have to show that, right?
Like I I think it is important and it's important to teach our
daughters about things like erections and things like that because they're gonna see it and they're gonna hear about it in class.
You know how many times I heard about that type of comment or joke in class and I like didn't know what people were talking about, so I felt so awkward and ashamed.
I'd rather our kids just know and like, hey, if they accidentally see a kid at a pool party with an erection or something, they just kinda walk away, not b make it a big deal.
'Cause the more even as we're creating the puberty toolkit, the more we're reading about erections and like learning about them.
It's like that's gonna happen all the time when you're a young boy going through puberty, right?
You can't really control it.
Yep
And so I'd rather our girls know what that is from us and know like, okay, don't make it a big deal, just like walk away on top of all the other body safety and consent stuff.
I'd rather they know that from us than have to try and figure out what to do in that awkward situation themselves if they're at a pool party or something like that.
So anyway, all that to say is I think something that maybe we've not been on different pages about, but like
Because I've taught this for years and years, like saying the word erection does not phase me at all.
Saying the word penis doesn't phase me.
I feel like there's still like an awkwardness to you that I can even tell right now as I'm talking about these things.
No, I just want to laugh
Yeah, right.
That goes back to my childhood for sure, cause me and the other boys in the class would always laugh at those kind of words and
Yeah, I'm sure.
You were probably the voice making everybody else uncomfortable in the class as you were like dying of laughter about it.
We were always laughing about it.
Picture that
So I think for you, I mean we've had the period conversations, but we're not like in that stage yet.
Even learning things like how to put a pad on underwear in case I'm not there
You know, and and uh one of our daughters has their period for the first time.
Like I would like for you to know how to coach them through how to do those types of things.
And that's not something you've ever had to do or like even like open a pad, right?
So I I would say for parents who are not so comfortable with this
Get yourself comfortable.
I think I've used a pad before as a bandage when I cut myself really badly.
Yeah, I think you did.
But but otherwise, like you would have never you've never looked at a tampon.
No.
I don't even know if I would know what it looks like to be honest.
Right
And you have a tail or something on it, right?
Yeah, a string.
A string?
Tail.
It looks like a mouse or something.
Okay.
Get yourself comfortable with those kind of things.
And even you can do it with your kids, you know, like with your daughter, like if you're teaching.
One of the things that we suggest for puberty too, especially as your kids enter into that age where they
or their peers might be starting to have their period is like make a little kit, just have it in your backpack, you know, just in case you need it.
So maybe if you're the uncomfortable parent, maybe you're the one helping them make that kit.
Right?
But I would say that's kinda the only issue that we've had.
You've mostly taken my lead, I think, and and respected that I've taught this for many years, so Yeah
that I hopefully know what I'm talking about.
Well I feel like the level at which you understand the topic is far greater than what I understand.
So not gonna interject when I don't know anything about it.
Well and I I want to share this.
The reason that I got into teaching this
to begin with, body safety, sexual health, like all that kind of stuff, is because I was working with adults with intellectual disabilities and children.
And they were never taught this information.
Yeah, they were pulled out of sex ed yeah.
So the youth that I was uh teaching this to, the special education classroom would be pulled out of
these discussions and they would not learn about consent and sex and periods and all of this stuff, even though this was still happening to them.
and the rates of abuse for people who were not taught this information were so much higher.
Like there's a lot of research to back that up.
That having these discussions with your children, whether or not they have an intellectual disability that just happened to be the
population I was teaching this to, having these discussions decreases their rates of abuse and vulnerability to abuse.
And that's like a highly researched thing.
So
That's why I became so passionate about having these conversations and teaching, especially to people who were not otherwise going to be taught
And we could see just even like anecdotally in the teaching that we were doing and the stories that we were hearing that it was saving people from abusive situations.
And I did so much research on this in my undergrad.
Like I kind of thought that this would be the area that I fully specialized in.
And now, of course, it's like one of the areas that I specialize in.
But I do feel really passionately about teaching this to kids because I want to decrease their vulnerability to ex abuse.
For me, that's how I got over being awkward.
about talking about it.
Cause I'm like, it's so important to talk about it with our kids and h give them this information.
It's more than just like they know what a path is.
Like the more we can be the trusted leader and have these conversations, the more we're actually protecting our kids down the road.
And that's why it's so important to me to have these conversations and to teach you how to have these conversations with your kids too.
That I think is a good segue into vocabulary.
And the terms that we use, because you have said that that helps reduce the rates of abuse.
Mm-hmm.
But it seems like
people asking questions and people commenting on Instagram on posts and all that, they feel it's again one of those situations where you're taking away a child's innocence by teaching them these words that maybe maybe we just feel shame.
or discomfort around them.
Do you think there's anything to be said about the vocabulary?
Yes, you should teach your children the right words for their body parts and all that stuff.
But
is having discussions about like if you were to use like a slang term for your penis or vagina or whatever, like if you use a slang term, is that really that bad?
I mean
Why do you have to use a slang term, I guess is my question.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I mean yeah, I think uh the a major reason for people being hung up on vocabulary, because that's really what it is, I think, is just words
Is there discomfort around the whole whole subject, like we've been talking about?
It's a Exactly.
There's a lot of shame around puberty and sex.
So on one hand you're saying well I guess not on one hand.
You are saying that teaching them the right terms is better.
Yep.
But do you think there's anything wrong with teaching
Like slanked.
I don't know.
It to me it just kind of seems like we're splitting hairs.
Like if you're gonna teach them, just teach them.
And if you're not using the exact right term for a body part, does that matter so much?
I
say to parents, like at least make sure that they know what their body part is called.
So don't only teach them the slang term.
Okay.
You know what I mean?
But I think my issue with slang terms and you're right, it's might just be splitting hairs
is like if we're using a slang term with our kids because we're so deeply uncomfortable with saying the word penis or saying the word vagina, we are in turn passing down our shame to our kids.
And I just feel like, why?
Like there's no point in my head.
Like when I used to teach adults this stuff, we would have a chart.
Like we'd have like a a big chart.
and we just write down every slang word that you know.
And the chart would be like pages and pages and pages of slang words.
And sometimes the adults I was teaching didn't even know the proper name.
They only knew the slang terms.
That really is when I started to think about it.
I'm like, okay, if
You're 30 and you don't know the word vulva and you don't know that that's your own body part.
And you feel so deeply uncomfortable when I say it that I see you like looking away, like oof, this is so shameful.
And it's just your own body part
That's really helpful actually to know what it is in case it's itchy, or what if your child has a yeast infection or a UTI or there's something itchy down there and they want to tell you it's important that they know the word and they're not like my cookie, you know
Right.
And like even worse case, if something happens, there's also research on this, that like a predator is much less likely to abuse someone who knows the anatomically correct name.
Like so if they've heard you and oftentimes predators.
Is that what it is though?
It's the fact that they know the n it's just had that discussion with
That tells them that they've had this discussion with the parents.
Right.
Right.
But is it the fact that it's not the fact that they just know the in a I guess that's like that's part of Yeah.
But there was interviews with
Um, I don't know, I'll have to find the actual article maybe and uh link it here, but there is something there was like interviews with child sex predators and they're saying something along the lines of like if they knew that the child knew the words
then that told them that they had had conversations with their parents and like they were less likely to be victims.
Because oftentimes the people who are the abusers are in the child's life, right?
They're a family member, they're a family friend.
So they would have n probably known that the parents are having this kind of conversation.
Anyway, that's a separate talk.
So to me it sounds like what you are saying is
it's worth sort of just getting over the discomfort and having the discussion with the correct names of the body parts.
Yeah, I mean, that would be my recommendation.
Like I don't know if you ever played this when you were a kid, but sometimes
As a kid, my friends would like the penis game.
Yeah.
Okay.
I wasn't sure if that was like a niche game that we played.
Oh my word, I never did that at school.
Oh really?
Yeah.
Hundred percent.
Oh my word.
Uh no, the penis game, I think we played it like under the bridge by my parents' house.
Really?
You of course played that in class.
That adds up to the that checks out.
Me and my buddies would be sitting in the back of class just slowly saying it louder and louder and louder.
And guess what, kids are gonna be less likely to say have the penis game if they have heard the word penis since they were two years old and don't think it's a big deal.
Anyway
It's a separate topic.
They won't think it's a funny word.
Maybe they'll still find it funny.
But it's gonna be less funny if you've heard it.
For people like you, it'll always be funny.
But um so play that game in your own home.
Like look in the mirror, just say it a hundred times.
The word's gonna lose like its
You don't think it's gonna lose its funniness?
No.
Okay.
Well, never mind then.
Scratch that game.
Yes.
True.
And I think for me, you know me.
I like just putting out comments there that just create a slight amount of discomfort or leaving the silence for a little longer than is comfortable.
Yeah.
So it makes sense that
Yeah, I mean there's reasons why you like that.
But um anyway, back to the questions.
Okay.
Yeah.
Do you think there are any other deeper anxieties around
The use of like the correct terms though.
Because I know like one of the main things that people say is that your child is losing their innocence.
And you kind of said that at the beginning too with the sex talk.
Yeah, I think that's the main anxiety people have.
Well, I don't want them to not be innocent.
And like two year old children shouldn't know the word vulva, right?
So I guess we have to reflect on our definition of innocence.
And again, I've wanted to say this whole episode.
We view things through our adult brains, right?
And our adult brains know about things like sex and they they
Like we think about things from a more sexual point of view because we're adults.
Do we though?
Well I don't know.
Like it it's not like it's an all consuming thing.
No, but for example, I had a dad reach out to me once and he said
Jess my son is having erections and I'm really concerned about him.
You know, he's only three.
And that is the example of what I mean is like we're viewing it from our adult
brains and we're viewing that as like that's like a dirty, terrible sexual thing.
Oh my goodness, my three-year-old's like this you know sexual person already.
when in reality that's a very normal thing to happen to a three-year-old when they get excited or when something happens or whatever.
Like that's very normal.
But that dad was viewing it as dirty and bad because of his own lens that he takes to it.
And so we need to remember that our kids are coming into these conversations with that lens.
If we tell them a vulva's evolva and a vagina's a vagina and a penis is a penis, that's not a dirty thing to them.
That's not taking away their innocence.
It's simply just naming a body part.
So that's why again we want to be mindful of our own biases and our own lens in which we view these conversations.
Because for the most part, that's not going to take away their innocence so long as we don't project that onto them.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
Yeah
I know that's the way I see our girls too.
Like one of them, we were at the water park and all of a sudden was naked and standing over top of a water jet.
Yeah.
And was looking at me like Daddy, do you want to try this?
Like it feels so good.
Right, of course it does.
Yeah, we're like So it's natural.
It's
like the most innocent thing that they could do because they're like, oh, this actually feels kind of kind of nice.
Yes.
And like, dad, you should try this
Like well that's another question I get asked, like, oh my goodness, like my child's touching themselves, or they're like touching their vulva or they're touching their penis, or they're putting their vulva under like the bathwater when it's coming out or whatever
And again, like we're viewing that from our adult brains, right?
Like, oh my goodness, like they're masturbating, that's so dirty and gross for a child to do, you know, but we gotta think about it from their brain and for them it's just like, oh, that feels interesting.
Oh, that feels different.
Oh, I didn't know it would feel that way.
It's just an interesting, good feeling to them.
That's it.
And you can still set boundaries like
Yeah, you're not allowed to stand naked over a water jet at the splash pad.
Like we don't do that because that's your private body and it's your private parts and blah blah blah.
You can have that conversation with your kid.
You can tell your kid like
No, you know, when grandma and papa are over, you can't pull down your pants to touch your penis in the living room.
That's something that you can do in the bathroom, but that's not
something that we do in public, right?
In our body safety toolkit, we talk about public and private behaviors and and so you can have that conversation without shaming them and making it like a dirty sexual thing.
Yeah.
And then they will have a hard time having that conversation.
If they have
ever have kids in the future too.
Because they feel shame around it.
Yep, I understand.
Well, thanks for listening to today's episode on puberty.
We'll be back.
Next week with part two of this episode.
Hope you'll be back.
We really enjoyed having this discussion and can't wait for uh the second part of this.
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
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