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The Thing We Never Talk About is an educational podcast about personal finance for creatives and other weirdos. We'll discuss managing cash flow with a lumpy income, when to save & when to invest, and how to reduce stress & build confidence when it comes to your money. No hot stock tips, no complicated strategies, and no finance bro jargon. We'll hear from artists, musicians, creative professionals, and other weirdos about how they navigate these questions for themselves. The Thing We Never Talk About is hosted by Timothy Iseler, CFP®, a former recording & touring audio engineer with 18 years experience in the music industry.
Andrew Sandoval: I don't know if we
can do my question that I had for you
or, or if you do it at the very end of,
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, we, well,
I usually do it at the end.
We can do it right now.
Do you want to.
Andrew Sandoval: so, yeah,
let's do, let's do it.
So, uh, my question for you had been...
what would be a, a good first step for
somebody wanting to dip their toe into the
investment market to try and get something
where it wouldn't be tying up a lot of
liquid income, but you know, something.
Timothy Iseler: Welcome to
The Thing We Never Talk About.
My name is Tim Iseler.
I'm a certified financial planner and I
run my own independent financial advisory
business helping musicians, artists,
and other people with weird jobs make
smarter decisions with their money.
You can learn more at iselerfinancial.com
If you have a question about money
or personal finance or mindset or
whatever, please send it to me by
visiting Iselerfinancial.com/podcast
and I will answer it in a future episode.
And if you enjoy this podcast,
please share it with a friend.
After you've done that, please go
ahead and like and subscribe to this
show wherever you listen to podcasts.
Today I am speaking with Andrew
Sandoval, who describes himself as
a producer rather than a manager.
And here's why: andrew and I met when
we toured together for the Monkees
50th Anniversary tour in 2016.
And that band, as Andrew explains in
this conversation, was very uncomfortable
with the term manager, but they were
comfortable with the term producer.
And it honestly fits because, while
Andrew did many or all of the things
that a manager would do, he was also
completely integrated into all details
of the tour and even within the show,
from booking flights and working directly
with promoters to writing the set list
and assembling the video footage that
went with every single song in the show.
In fact, Andrew actually
ran the video footage.
And he committed more than just his time.
Andrew also fronted his own money
to make sure that the shows happened
in such a way that the fans would
get the experience they wanted.
Because what I learned in this
conversation is that Andrew is first
and foremost a devoted fan of all
the bands and projects he works on.
In addition to producing tours, andrew
brings the same fan first mentality
to his role as a book publisher.
He's released books about the Monkees,
as well as Micky Dolenz, who is
the only surviving member of The
Monkees, and most recently the Kinks.
Andrew shows off some of the books
he's released during this conversation,
and for that reason, I'm making
this episode available on YouTube.
I wanted people to be able to see
the size and scope of these books
'cause they are quite impressive.
He's.
He's making really deluxe products
for niche audiences that he
knows are underserved because
he is, again, a devoted fan.
You can learn more about Andrew's
books at beatlandbooks.com.
That's B-E-A-T-L-A-N-D books.com.
So thank you for being here, and I hope
you enjoy this conversation with producer
and book publisher Andrew Sandoval.
Andrew Sandoval: how are you doing?
Timothy Iseler: I am well, how are you?
Andrew Sandoval: I'm doing okay.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, just okay.
Andrew Sandoval: Yeah.
Just okay.
Just okay.
Not, not better than that.
No,
Timothy Iseler: Okay.
Andrew Sandoval: nice to see
you after a long, a long lapse,
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah,,
just less than 10 years.
Andrew Sandoval: Yes, yes.
I was, I was thinking about that.
I was thinking about that, uh, time,
this morning and, you know, and, and
in thinking about this, doing this.
So yeah,
Timothy Iseler: Yeah,
Andrew Sandoval: that was a hectic year.
that was maybe one of the busiest
years of touring that, that I ever did.
So, we got, we, we got to a lot of places,
Timothy Iseler: yeah, yeah.
Ending in Australia.
Andrew Sandoval: Yes.
Ending in the Gold Coast.
And
Timothy Iseler: Exactly right.
Andrew Sandoval: yeah, yeah, exactly.
And that was Peter Tork's last ever gig.
Timothy Iseler: Oh, is that right?
Andrew Sandoval: And it was
also your last ever Monkees gig.
Timothy Iseler: That's true.
Yes, it was.
Andrew Sandoval: We didn't
know that at the time.
We didn't know that, you know,
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Andrew Sandoval: and, um, my Monkees
gigs, there's no more Monkees gigs for me.
So I guess, you know,
that's just the way it goes.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah,
Andrew Sandoval: when are we, have
we begun or we, or when do we begin?
Timothy Iseler: we, we have begun.
I can trim out anything you
want me to trim out, take
anything again you want to take.
It's all right.
Andrew Sandoval: I, it may, you
know, the Monkees thing may or may
not be the best opener, but, uh,
where do you want to,
where do you wanna start?
Timothy Iseler: Well, Andrew, I
start by asking everyone what do
you tell people you do for a living?
Andrew Sandoval: You know, I have a lot of
problems with that, not the question, but
I have a lot of problems telling people.
When I, when we used to do
those landing forms that
Timothy Iseler: Yeah,
Andrew Sandoval: by hand,
I would write producer.
And the main reason was I always felt
kind of under threat, especially in
my role working with the Monkees.
They didn't like me calling the, being
called their manager for some reason.
Even though I negotiated their recording
deals and I would oversee the budgets
for their touring and then vet all of
the offers that came in through their
booking agents, do all the things that
a manager would do, they, because may A,
maybe they didn't respect me enough to
call me their manager, or B, it the way
they began their career, I studied their
history before I worked with them, which
was they were on a TV show, and they
were, they were hired and they became a
group on their own and made records and
made some records that self-contained,
made some records with studio musicians
in many different modes over many years.
So in those days, they there, the
producers of the television show who
created the Monkees, Bob Rafelson and
Bert Schneider, they, they got, they
got the Monkees to get rid of all
of their representation, so they'd
have no outside representation.
And the producers of the show
were essentially their managers.
So being called their producer, I, I
liked to tell myself that that was okay,
Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Sandoval: but, but in reality, I
did the job of a, of a manager as well.
And then I would be, you know, the
creative end of their show, the video
and, and the other elements of the set
list and things that I was involved
in, that was the fun part, but you had
to do all this other stuff, which was
mostly like a lot of accounting really.
So, the fun part was like this
much and then the figuring out
financially how to make everything
work was the whole rest of of it.
And I don't think I would have the job
as either their manager or producer
or whatever they wanted to call me
without being able to look at the
financial aspects of it and be able to
give them some sort of answer of like,
well what am I gonna get out of this?
You know, literally, and, you know,
at you, you can get away with it for
a certain amount of time, sort of
saying, well, this is gonna be great.
You know, most people don't want to
hear, oh, this is gonna be great for
your career, or, you know, you're really
gonna get some wonderful exposure.
I mean, when you're at, uh, an advanced
age in your life, you know, meaning past
your mid twenties, the idea, of just going
and, and working really hard for some, for
just some exposure is, is a tough call.
So, um, so a lot of it came
down to figuring out things.
I started my life in the music
business as a, a teenager.
I was so interested in music that I
started my own music fanzine when I was in
junior high school and I started selling
the magazine, um, just to record stores.
And I didn't have, uh, 'cause I
was a teenager, I didn't really get
advertising from labels or anything
else, so I just figured out how to,
like, okay, I can make this many and,
and sell this many and these stores will
take them on consignment or whatever.
And it was, you know, I did
a few, three issues of that.
And then was getting interviews with
people was difficult as a teenager too.
'cause they didn't really, um, publicists
at labels would be like, well, I'm
sorry miss, they don't talk to anybody
because my voice was really high.
Higher even than it is now.
But, um, so, but I, but I always
thought of doing things the tra...
you know, I would read a lot about
music and that's all I cared about
in my entire life to this day.
If it hadn't worked out, in some
way, I would've been really screwed.
But, you know, I read, well, you
go to a publicist and you call
them and you set up an interview.
So I tried all the traditional things
and eventually it started working.
and then with the, the fanzine, I, I
had a sample of my writing about music,
and so I got a job writing liner notes
for a compilation for the label Rhino.
And I've been working
at their retail store.
And then I managed to get the
head of the a and r department
to come to my birthday party.
And he said, what do you
want for your birthday?
I didn't get you anything.
I said, I, I want a
job at the Rhino Label.
He goes, well, would you
be willing to do anything?
And I said.
Yeah, he goes, customer service?
I said, okay.
You know, I mean, I just figured
I gotta get in my foot in the door
and just start doing something.
And I think the people I've talked
to, most of them older than me, kind
of what you have to do, uh, as far as
experience, but just put yourself in the
places of where things are happening.
Like, don't know how your career as a live
audio engineer started, but I'm sure it
was at, at with some friends or local,
local group or whatever, and you got
some experience firsthand at one level.
And then you could, you know,
people were like, that didn't suck.
You know, do you want to do my thing?
So I mean that, I think that that's,
that's the thing you, I, each thing I
did, I took, I took what that was, and
then I let people know like, oh, I do
this here, look at this, I did this.
And then they're like, oh, well,
he's probably really inexpensive.
We'll get him.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I definitely, when I was starting
my career, I started in recording
studios, but I got started there by,
because I would, you know, similar
to what you were saying, like I would
record my friends' bands for free, and
eventually one of them put out a record
so I could say like, look, I did this
thing and, and got hired at a studio.
And because I was working at a studio,
somebody said, do you want to go on tour?
And I said, well, okay.
I've never done that.
and you know, uh, if you keep at
it, eventually you keep at it and
you're not a total bonehead, you'll
kind of move up the ranks a little.
But definitely in both of those
parts of my career, I started out
by basically doing it for free.
And then eventually got
some kind of traction.
I think a lot of it is just if you'll
show up and work hard, then they'll
give you a second chance, you know?
Andrew Sandoval: Yeah.
And you, you put yourself in,
in the position of being right
there in the mix with people.
my, my main thing has always been I'm,
I've also been a professional musician,
and so doing a charity show with some
friends of mine, and, uh, it was a
tribute to, well, we did a tribute to
Brian Wilson and Brian Wilson showed up,
Timothy Iseler: Oh, wow.
Andrew Sandoval: But that was
a, that was a really big deal.
And this was prior to
his return to touring.
It was about six or seven years before he
started touring again as a solo artist.
And then, um, and Alex Chilton
showed up for that as well.
I mean, so we just had
this sort of organic thing.
And then we, we were doing a tribute to
the Kinks and, um, Dave Davies, who was
one of the founding members with his
brother Ray of the Kinks, uh, showed
up and he showed up at the soundcheck.
I had sort of finagled it, that
my group would back him up.
We'd learned the songs that
he had asked, but he had asked
for an odd grab bag of songs.
Not necessarily the ones that he,
in my mind, I was into his solo work
and he'd made these solo singles that
were really great in the sixties.
And, and so he, but he had asked for
these other songs that Ray had sung, and
I was like, well, man, it'd be so cool
if he did like some of the songs he did.
Like, so on my first meeting
with him at the soundcheck,
he's like, Hey, what's going on?
What do you wanna play?
I said, how about
"Susannah's Still Alive"?
Which I, I wasn't aware of him
doing that since like 1967.
It wasn't a song that they
did on stage or anything.
And he is like, okay, what
key do you play that in?
I go, G.
He goes, you started.
And so I started and he is like,
he just stepped right to the
mic and he sang it really well.
Like he didn't need any recall on it.
And he is like, okay, that sounds good.
So we'll open with that song.
And then what other songs do you know?
So we did all the other songs
that he had asked us to do.
And um, then he was supposed to,
he put out a book and then he was
supposed to go on tour with the
Smithereens as as his backing band.
And he had never been out as a solo
artist in all the years that he had been
touring with the Kinks from 64 through 96.
And he put out lots of solo albums.
He had had solo albums on major
labels, RCA and Warner Brothers.
He never toured, he never
did any public appearances.
So the day he did his first ever full
length concert as a solo artist, I was the
other guitarist in his band because the
Smithereens had their own career at the
time, and it was gonna cost more money.
And then he is like, Hey,
they're these local guys and,
uh, you know, they know my music.
So, and, but we worked
hard and we, we learned.
And then that was my first touring
experience, and it was a really good
touring experience because I was going out
with somebody, uh, whose music I loved.
I, I worshiped this guy, watching
him as like a, I first saw
him when I was 11 years old on
stage at the Forum in, in L.A.
and then like 12 years later, I'm standing
on stage with him playing the guitar.
And so what I learned in that
experience was he had a tough thing
going because he was establishing
himself as a solo artist in a market
where people only knew of the kinks.
They didn't know of Dave Davies as a
solo artist, even though he'd made these
albums and had a few videos in MTV.
So the Dr, his draw was
fairly minimal at the start.
He had to rebuild his career on
the live circuit, and you would
go to these places and he'd have
a guarantee, and if he hadn't sold
enough tickets in advance, he hadn't
made the money to get the guarantee.
And so I would see the tour manager
talk to the, the buyer, you know, who's
always known to the outside world as the
promoter, but it's actually the buyer.
They're the person who's, you know, got
the contract and, or there's the, the,
the person who works for the buyer and
they're at the venue and they're like,
yeah, you didn't sell that many tickets.
So, um.
We are not gonna give you what
you asked for on your rider, which
is like, you know, a six pack
of Coke and, uh, you know, a six
pack of beer and this cheese tray.
It's like, and then I saw, I
saw a very experienced tour
manager say, no, no, no, no, no.
Like, we're gonna, we're gonna
call our agent, you know,
now, and they're gonna get...
because what you find out is the agent,
has sold many shows to the buyer.
So if they're gonna screw them
on this show, they're gonna screw
them on these other shows and
they're not gonna wanna do that.
They're gonna lose some money
on one of the shows, but they'll
make it up on these other shows.
And the overall relationship
is what's important.
So I learned this in my twenties and when
the opportunity came to work with the
Monkees, used that as my experience to how
to deal with these situations where you
had a slow selling show or a no selling
show, or people want to get out of it.
You take a reduction on the
contract, you make a deal with them.
You say, Hey, how about the guys do
like an extra meet and greet for you?
Or we sign some product, or we do
a giveaway with the radio station.
Or you know, you, you come up with
these ideas so that the people feel...
you know, the worst thing is, is
if you go to the venue and you're
like, yeah, well that's your problem.
Where's my money?
Because you're not gonna have a
very long career in the business.
I mean, if you're somebody like
yourself, Tim, or me, idea is that
you would get work with other people
eventually, and you'd go back around.
We've all been to the same venues
and we all know, well, this venue
has a, a washing machine that is
good for you to wash your clothes in.
You know, that's the
other thing you learn.
It's like you gotta save up your
clothes for the washing day.
You know, this place has the shower.
This place has, you know, this place has
the good catering and this and all these,
you know, whatever you take away from,
you know, I know you would always like
get the apples or whatever, and I would
have like my certain things, my chocolate
bars or whatever I would get, and you ask
for small things that you know, you can
take other places to make your job go, you
know, you learn as you go along, how to
make it work for your artist and for you.
But in the music business,
I found that you have to.
Know how to do a lot of different
things because pandemic comes and all
of a sudden we're not going you know?
So had published a book on the Monkees and
I had thought, I've, I'm really screwed.
I had a, a tour starting in April of
2020 with The Monkees, a live album.
It was bundled where Rhino had, the
label that they were on had put out a
record, and they were, each person who
bought a ticket was getting a, a, a cd.
And then there was like
all this other promotion.
It was all just screwed.
And I was the producer of
the album and all this stuff.
So it was a big mess.
And, I was like, what am
I gonna do financially?
Like I li my overhead is this
and I don't want to leave where
I'm living right now and go, you
know, sleep on someone's couch.
You know, like, I've gotta
figure out something.
So I thought about all the stuff that
I had, you know what I, obviously
stuff I could sell off or whatever
and you know, those thing, musical
instruments, equipment, there's
always those sorts of things.
And then thought, well, I have this
book and I want to re redo my book,
but I had some friends who'd done a
Beatles book that I was very impressed
with called Recording The Beatles
Timothy Iseler: Oh
Andrew Sandoval: yeah.
Timothy Iseler: yeah, yeah, I had that.
Andrew Sandoval: um, it's a wonderful
book and it's a very deluxe book and
it's beautifully presented and it's got
wonderful information in it and you see...
but they started off at a price point
of a hundred dollars for their book.
And initially some people said
a hundred dollars for a book.
That's just crazy.
But people collect art books
and other things, I mean, if a
book is really nice, you could
charge a hundred dollars or more.
There's a company in England called
Genesis Publications and they do
really high-end Beatles books and
Rolling Stones books and Who books.
Those cost about five or $600.
They had a Beach Boys book that
cost about a thousand dollars
Timothy Iseler: Wow.
Andrew Sandoval: signed by
various members of the Beach Boys.
But you know, they, there is a market
for that, but it's a very limited one.
So I thought, well, I don't
know if Monkees fans can pay
Timothy Iseler: I.
Andrew Sandoval: for a book, but
they, maybe they could afford,
you know, this, this other thing.
And if I figured out how to finance doing
it, I could redo my book and no publisher
would, you know, I, I had my book
published by mainstream publisher, it was
shut down by the FBI for accounting fraud.
So I got
Timothy Iseler: Oh no.
Andrew Sandoval: I got the rights
to my book back in, in that.
So following that, I was like, no
publisher would do this kind of book.
So gonna sell a product that
no one else would market.
I'll have no competition and it's
gonna be a very narrow audience.
But no one else will do this.
So I did a 700 plus page book on
the Monkees and their history,
and I put everything, I did it
for a year and got it out in 2021.
I self-published it
and I self marketed it.
And I also made the decision not to go
on Amazon because they take such a huge
cut of, , of what, of, of every book.
And they make it so that the
books are very, very cheap.
But the book I want to do was
deluxe, very heavy, large in size,
expensive to ship, had actual value.
And also not having a digital version of
it, because the minute you have a digital
version, some people are honest, but most
people are like, oh, hey, I got this.
Do you want this?
You know, and, and that's, you
know, that's the folk tradition.
Like people pass it on or whatever.
I mean, I get it.
So, you know, I'm a big collector.
I collect records and I know if somebody
said, well, I've got the first pressing
promo copy I'm in the UK and it costs,
you know, 300 pounds and I'll only ship
it this way and it's, that's gonna cost
you another 50 pounds, i'd say, wow.
How can I figure out how to save?
Like, what can I sell to like get that?
Like I want that.
And so for most people, they're
like, well, you know why?
Well, I'm a collector.
Like that's what I'm into.
Like I wanna have this version of it and
very few people have this version of it.
This is what I want.
You know, this attachment to
music and recorded music and
I want this specific thing.
So thinking like that, that's what
I've tried to create is not like crazy
stuff, but sort of crazy like things
that you couldn't get other places and
people would have to make the decisions
like, wow, do I really want this?
Do I, don't I want this?
It's, it's not for a
casual, you know, pickup.
So I thought if I can, you know, you
used to see me when we toured with the
Monkees that people would come up to
the front of house, uh, sound booth
and they'd have their Monkees books or
other things, and they'd talk to me.
And because I'd written a lot of liner
notes or whatever, I was out in the
fan community actively selling the
Monkees, getting people to come in
to the shows and, and, and stuff, and
proselytizing on behalf of, of the cult.
So during the pandemic, I went to
those people and I didn't say, Hey
man, I'm broke, you gotta gimme money.
I said, Hey, I've talked
about it for years.
I'm gonna update my book
and it's gonna be insane.
And this is what I, what I've got.
prior to the pandemic, I went to New
York City and I went and got these
court records with, and all of these,
uh, legal things about the Monkees
that totally changed the history
of the monkey story as I did know.
And I got 2000 pages of things.
It's gonna, I'm gonna completely rewrite
the book and this is what it's gonna be.
And, and the audience was there.
And then I had to figure out how
to fulfill the book because I
realized, well, I can't be just
sending these books out myself.
So I asked around to different
people and they're like, okay,
well this warehouse will do it
and it costs this much per piece.
You know, they pick and pack or whatever.
So you figure out how to do
it and get it out to people.
And then I figured out, well.
I was answering emails for all
these people who get their dented
books or, you know, there's gonna
be problems, we all know I can't do
that and then do this other part.
So I've gotta get somebody.
So I got a remote person who answers all
the emails when they wake up every day
and they're like, order number 79 17,
got the wrong book order, 79 17 got a
book with a, a, a little dented corner.
Like, do we send them a new book
or do we offer them some money off?
Or, you know, all those sorts of things.
And we, we value, it's like we look,
well, they're in England so it's gonna
cost us $80 to send them another book.
So let's see if we can make
a deal with, you know...
but ultimately you figure out these
things and, I'll stop talking in a
second, but the main thing I learned is
don't try and do it all yourself, even
if you can do a little bit of everything.
People don't want to see that.
They wanna know, they wanna know you,
you hire experienced people because
you just look like a crazy person
jumping on stage to tune the guitars
and then running out to the front of
house and then going backstage to, you
know, make sure that the, you know,
the, the deli platters in the back.
It's like you, you have to, have
to, have to let other people in
to help make the whole thing work.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, you, you touched
on some things that I definitely wanted
to talk about and one of them is, there's
a parallel, I think with the music
industry and the publishing industry,
the idea that the physical media is dead
and nobody wants to buy a CD anymore,
nobody wants a mass market paperback,
but they do want the deluxe three LP
reissue and they do want the big art book.
And it was interesting to, I wanted to
ask you how you, how you thought about the
size of that, you know, any of your books,
but you know, let's start with the Monkees
book, the size, the cost, whatever.
But it sounds like because you were so
connected to the community already that
without, without sort of making it a
Kickstarter, you were, you were able to
figure out a lot of that on your own.
Is, is that right?
Andrew Sandoval: Yeah, so I mean, the size
of it was just like, how big can I dream?
Like, so this is physically, this is
the low end version of the Monkees book.
so this is,
Timothy Iseler: I.
Andrew Sandoval: It looks like,
but it's, it's a really nice book.
The Monkees community was underserved
because people would be like Monkees,
why, why would we give them any
more than a $20, 200 page book?
Like they don't need that.
The Monkees don't.
And it's like, no, they've got all this
history and they've got these fans.
When we were touring with them and you
know, in the years proceeding working with
you and the years post working with you,
would see in the concert business that
there would always be people who would be
excited about a VIP package with a meet
and greet or a set list or other things.
People be fighting to get the set list
from the front of house or the, from
the stage, from the, you know, the stage
techs or whatever at the end of the night.
It's like, well, what
if we took that away?
You know, just made the extra
set list for these people and
did, you know, did other things.
We also had an issue with, when I
first toured with the Monkees, the
meet and greets did not go well.
Uh, the fans weren't, they
were, they were oversold.
The fans were not like that well
behaved, like one of 'em knocked Micky's
hat off, like, just like weird stuff.
And then they're like, yeah, we
don't want to ever do that again.
So I'm like, how about we let you guys
have to come to soundcheck anyway?
How about we let them come to soundcheck?
And, you know, I understand that
Paul McCartney charges a lot
of money for the soundcheck.
Instead of thinking about like, well
here's what Paul McCartney charges,
we should do that, it's like, let's
charge 'em a normal amount of money,
but give them like a big experience,
which is like a long soundcheck where
they see you actually soundcheck
and then you do some songs that
you're not gonna do in the show.
You do, you actually give
them some real value.
The word of mouth will spread that you
guys are good people as far as, Hey, I
did that VIP thing, I paid extra money.
But boy, they did like three songs I
didn't see them do that night in the show.
And I got my, you know, I got my
set list or print or lanyard or
whatever we gave away at the time.
So that was sort of a
similar thing with this book.
So I thought, well, three versions
of the, of the basic book.
So it's got essentially the same book,
but the outer casing of it is different.
You know, as a record collector,
I collect foreign picture sleeves,
I collect all, you know, and I
like, they bring me a lot of joy.
But I work for record companies and
they're like, we'll, just give 'em a
poster or we'll give 'em, you know,
like, they would always be like, no,
I'm like, I, I like these people.
They're, you know, they're paying my rent.
I'm gonna do something that I would
want and I'm gonna do something
that will make them feel like
they are seen and supported by me.
Because I care, like, and I want
them to have a good experience.
'cause I want them to come back.
And I subsequently have done
two other books, a book of Micky
Dolenz's photos, and then a book
of other Rare Monkees photos.
And we had a lot of the same
customers come back for those books.
And we built up a, a network and it's
all direct to consumer, all direct
from me them or you or whoever.
and we fulfill all our own product.
We don't have a distributor anywhere
else in the world, which has cut
down on a lot of global sales
because the shipping is so expensive.
But, you know, it's a unique
item and it's a limited item.
And I, I don't, I don't keep
things perpetually in print.
Stuff sells out.
I mean, that's just, it's, we've seen
it all in, you know, in the world of
sub pop, you know, singles and all sort
we've, we've seen all before, but in
the book world, the kinds of subjects
I picked, starting with the Monkees
and now going onto the kinks, they're
underserved for deluxe sort of items.
The kinks in particular
have a whole history....
starting in the 1960s, they were
on a label called Pye Records in
the uk, that's who they signed to.
And Pye were the pioneers, not no pun
intended, of low cost budget records.
So immediately, if the Kinks had a few
hits, they would be out on an album.
Like they would, you know, they'd have
a few hits singles, they'd put out a
separate budget album when the Kinks
were making new albums, like really
brilliant albums like the Village Green
Preservation Society, or Arthur, Pye would
have out budget versions, not of those
new records, but of other older hits.
And they'd be putting 'em out distributing
'em and outselling those records.
They're on the same basic label, but
they were like, we're just getting
our money wherever we can get it out.
And there's people who
want to buy cheap stuff.
And so the kinks have always
had a lot of cheap product out.
And so people to, like, again, it's
sort of like the Monkees thing.
It's, um, starting this, this project with
the kinks, the mentality out there is like
a, a kinks book for a hundred dollars?
That's just insane.
Well, yeah, there's lots of kinks books
that are less, but, you know, but like
a small book in a bookstore now, I
went to skylight books here in, in, um,
Los Feliz, and like, those are about
$30 now off the shelf if you support
a local bookstore, which is great.
So, you know, 500 page book on
the case is, you know, is, is
not a bad value at what it is.
And also it's like you have to also
find out, it's like, well this isn't
just 500 pages to have 500 pages.
I mean, we got access to all of these
print archives and other libraries
and it costs money to, to get to
those places or to actually access
the, you know, the BBC doesn't give
you information for free, for a fee,
they, they will give you information.
What dates did they appear
on these radio shows in 1964?
What's, what do you have for
the paperwork for this TV show?
So they will give you access,
however, it's all for a fee.
So it costs money to do these books and
it costs money to do them in a way of like
providing information to people that they
wouldn't get just free on the internet
or in any of the other, uh, publications.
So you have to find a way to fund
that and not just like, Hey, I'm
desperate, you gotta help me.
But more like, I want to bring
something out to the world that
doesn't exist in one place together.
And it's gonna bring you not just a night
of fun, but like, you could, you could
be reading this for years, literally.
This book took twice the time
of the Monkees book to do.
It was much more complicated.
But that's, but that's sort of the long,
the long answer, which is, you have
to, I think you have to think about
what's not happening rather than, oh,
this person's doing this, let's just
do that and, and charge more money.
I, when we were growing up and seeing
bands, there was like, sort of like this
enigmatic part to, it's like, wow, how do
they, how do they, they got out on stage,
they did these songs this night, they're
doing these songs this other night.
Like, now it's like, oh, well I know
what's gonna be on the set list.
Oh, I, you know, I went, you know,
it's like the, the enigma is gone.
But the people have had to figure out
a way to directly connect with their
audiences, directly, engage their
audiences, and let them know it's
important that you come see my show.
It's important you buy my records.
It's important that you buy my book,
and this is why it's important.
You know, this is what's in it.
This is what you're getting, and this
is, this is what you need to know.
And that's, that's where we're at now as
far as having to tell people, you know,
the set list is gonna be a surprise.
I may be doing all new material and
no, no songs that you recognize.
And for a small portion of the
audience, that'll be great.
But for a lot of people,
you're gonna be like, what?
I'm never gonna see that person again.
You know?
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Yeah.
Before we move on, what's the
name of your, your book company
and where can people find it?
Andrew Sandoval: It's called Beat
Land Books, B-E-A-T-L-A-N-D books.
it's, uh, so you can find
it to beat land books.com
or beat land books my Shopify,
I think this is one of the
extensions, but there's the
Timothy Iseler: I.
Andrew Sandoval: about the four
books I've published so far.
Uh, three on the Monkees one on the Kinks.
I Also have a book out, uh, years ago on
the Bee Gees, I, I wrote a book on them.
And these, uh, these books are taking
the day by day activities of the kinks
and the Monkees, the recording sessions,
breakdown of The, the format of the
recordings, like if it was on, on half
inch, four track or one inch, eight track,
who were the recording engineers were,
the place that recorded at the musicians
that are on it with the Monkees, it
has all the session musicians listed.
I went to the, uh, American Federation
of Musicians and got all the original
records, went through all the original
multi-tracks and matched them with the
records to see what was, know, what,
what, what there was between the two.
Also transcribed any of the, the
chatter, the talking between songs and
then, radio appearances, television
appearances, and live concerts, you know.
And then you get the venues.
Where they're playing.
And, and if there's some, some
contemporary coverage from the local
newspaper, there'll be some, a blurb from
that to sort of give you an eyewitness.
So they may, there may be something
interesting, they say, you know,
three, three people jumped on
stage, the show had to be shut down.
Or they did this song, and
you're like, they did that song.
Really?
Are you sure?
So, , I do a lot of stuff with newspaper
archives and, and bringing in a lot
of things that you wouldn't find just
easily, you know, by looking up a
Wikipedia and, uh, entry or something.
So
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, so music
has been your career, your
life since you were a teenager.
Do you feel like there are things
you've learned either in your capacity
as a producer slash manager, or now
publishing books or writing fan zines
or whatever that you have applied
to your personal financial life?
Andrew Sandoval: yes and no.
I, I feel like.
I kind of, it's like having
a, a higher religious calling.
And I, I don't mean to be blasphemous
to, to anybody who would think,
think that, but I mean, music
is essentially my, my religion.
I always, you know, people ask me if
I into sports, I'm always like, well,
music is kind of my music and my sports.
Like I the extra thing that people
would put into sports, like, I
take like another helping of music.
But I'd like to say that it's been an
inspiration to how I handle my finances,
but it's been more like I've gotta
figure out a way to do this, , because
this is so important to me in my life.
So I, I, so just so people know
who are listening, don't have any
financial support from my family.
my parents are both deceased and I was
more or less asked to leave the house
when, when I graduated high school.
So I was living on my own and supporting
myself from music from the time of 18 to
the time now when I'm in my early fifties.
So, and the way you do that is by just
like hustling hard time, like what
can I do to make, you know, I would've
liked to have been a singer songwriter
and I made four or five albums of my
own songs that you got good reviews
and I sold a few records and I, you
know, did some touring and, and other
things, but that wasn't the main thing.
I also was interested in older
music, so I did a lot of reissues
and that was a big business for a
long time with CD sales and stuff.
But when Tower went away and the economic
fall of 2007, um, you know, I got laid
off from my job, and then I got into
Management with the Monkees and, and spent
a few years getting them back on stage,
'cause I had a relationship with them.
So music has informed many of my
choices, and not all of them have
been very practical or even very
reasonable, but I always felt like,
well, if I'm going down, I'm going down
with something I've truly believe in.
And if I have to go out and sell things,
I'm selling something that in my heart
of hearts, I really think is great.
And so that's been my ethos with, uh,
with, you know, both the book company and
my earlier, uh, exploits and, and even,
you know, what I do with live concerts,
like, you know, to talk to people who
are doing stuff year round at these
venues, when they get the impression
that you're not just like, well, I want
what I want and screw you, know, tends
to be like a better working atmosphere.
So that's, that's what it's been.
But one of the things I think you
touched on, in, , in our emails and
it sort of, the, the, uh, the outer
description of your podcast is how do
you deal with, I think you call it a
bumpy income, which is you get, so you
might get a job for $5,000 and like, wow,
$5,000 I could pay for a lot of things.
It's like, well, when are you getting the
$5,000 at the, at the end of what you do?
Or 60 days or 90 days, or 120 days?
Like, I've, you know, I've worked for
some of the largest record companies
in the world, and that's not a boast
because they're the worst to pay usually.
You know, I'll be chasing after that
$5,000, six months later, and you'd be
like, well, I really didn't make much
money because like, this has turned into
like a full-time job just trying to get
accounts payable to even return my email.
Oh yeah, we, well now you gotta send
an invoice with an invoice number
and we've changed the PO numbering
system, so we're gonna start again.
So the clock starts again
and you're like, what?
know?
So if that's your only thing and you
were counting on that $5,000 to pay for
all this stuff, you're really screwed.
So this is something that most people in
the music business have had to deal with,
which is that, yeah, even if you sign to a
label in the old days, you might get this
advance, but that's the last money you'll
ever see because you are unrecouped for
that amount of money until, you know, if
you made a huge hit record, then you might
recoup some of the money, but then they
gave you money to go on tour, or they gave
you money to make a video, or they may
gave you money to, to make another record.
And, but they said, we only wanna
make this record with you if you're
gonna have this producer and this
producer is gonna cost $150,000 and
we'll give you guys, you know, $15,000
to, you know, just to pay some bills.
But that's come, you know, the $150,000
and the $15,000, I mean, that's it.
And then, you know, maybe, we'll,
you know, we'll renegotiate, but
that debt is always gonna be there.
So, you know, these are the
things that we deal with.
But I think you have to, you
can't go into it as a lark.
I mean, you have to, to
really be committed to it.
And then, you know, you've transitioned
out to be, uh, a financial advisor,
and I'm sure you were in investing,
not literally, but investing yourself
in that interest tandem to the
music, work that you were doing.
Timothy Iseler: That's correct,
although really just the last year
that I was touring, I had, um, I had
been going really hard for a number of
years when you and I worked together.
You may recall I was just, I
was living out of a suitcase.
I didn't have a fixed address and
was just a total mercenary, like, you
know, if the Monkees had three weeks
off and I could pick up a tour for
two weeks in between I would do it.
And so just was really burning myself out
in a big way and was kind of struggling
to find where, where I fit in that world.
'cause I was, where I was
headed wasn't satisfying.
And, and I decided that this would be a
way that I could help the same community
but, you know, do a different job.
And help and also help people in
a longer term relationship than
just, I'll work with you from this
date to this date, and then maybe
we'll never see each other again.
So the idea of having some kind of a
second act was there for a while, but it
was just the last year that I was touring
where I was actually like, at the same
time getting licensed and setting up my
business and doing all that kind of stuff.
Andrew Sandoval: So what made, like,
what made you want to transition?
Uh, I, I, I think you answered it,
but was, do you feel like you've
stabilized your life through this?
Timothy Iseler: Hmm.
Uh, in a way, well, yes,
I definitely think I have.
In a way though, I,
I would, I have never been the
kind of person who is like, I'm
gonna get it figured out and then
jump off of the moving vehicle.
You know?
It was like, I just, I knew if
I kept touring, I knew I could
keep working, but it, it had
lost its shine for me, you know?
It wasn't exciting.
And, and when that happens,
it's, it's not fun for anyone.
It's not fun for me.
It's not fun, the fun for the people
around me, and I wanted to be, I
wanted to find a position where
I felt like I was helping people
in a bigger way, like I said.
And through so many years of, of
that kind of a lifestyle of, you go
on tour and you make a lot of money,
you come home and you spend all the
money and just figuring out like how
do you manage that kind of a life?
And learning how to invest on
my own and learning, you know,
getting into credit card debt and
getting out of credit card debt.
I just sort of learned all of
these things, these ways to
handle that kind of a life.
And what I saw in the people around
me is that there were lots of
people who were making good money.
You know, I mean, I, I don't know if
you're comfortable saying with this, but
like, the Monkees paid well, like I, I
made a good amount of money on that tour.
And so there, I, I knew people who
were making that kind of money,
but there was no support for them.
And in the music industry, at
least the, the version of it that I
existed in, if you talked about your
money, that was the worst thing.
You know, you would, you were
there because you loved it, not
because you someday hoped you
might buy a house or something,
or someday hoped you might retire.
And so I wanted to be able to help these
people that I knew, except for the fact
that they had weird jobs, they had all
the qualifications of making better
decisions, but there just isn't really
an outlet for people with jobs like that.
You know, you can't walk
into your bank and say like,
Hey, I want a financial plan.
I have no idea what I'm gonna make
this year or how many states I have to
file taxes in, or, you know, I don't
have any retirement plan at work.
Like, they don't know
how to deal with that.
Andrew Sandoval: They don't, and I
mean, I think a lot of the people that
you and I have come into contact with
and, and they're wonderful people, but
they're, they're, you know, they're
professionals at being irresponsible.
I
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Andrew Sandoval: the whole thing.
You know, they hire somebody like you
not, I mean, I'm saying on tour even, you
know, not just 'cause you are doing, uh,
production management and tour management,
which are unique, unique things.
Sometimes there's, they're split apart.
You're also doing front of
house, so that's why you're
paid as well as you were.
'cause you're doing the, you're doing
these different jobs and they're often
helpful to do together because the
logistics of what you're doing, all
sorts of fall falls under the same thing.
So when you get to the venue, when
you're advancing the shows, it's helpful
that it doesn't have to go out to three
different people, but sometimes it depends
on the level of where they're split.
But, but a lot of people around you,
they're counting on you to have all
of that information and have it all
nailed down so they don't have to,
all they have to do is roll out of,
you know, a bed for a lobby call and
get to the venue and do their thing.
You know, I always feel like the
band has like the easiest job in the,
in, in the entire production, even
though they're with the ones on stage,
because they just have that one job.
Whereas if you're the stage tech,
you know, you're usually doing like
two or three other things and you're
also trying to get your next gig.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Andrew Sandoval: At the same time
you're trying to line that up on
the side and then you're coming
to me as the tour producer saying,
Hey, so the last thing you have,
like, are we gonna be working again?
Because I have this other thing.
What do you think about this?
And I'm like, yeah, just take, you
know, take it or don't take it.
Or no, we do have these things.
Or like if you do, you
can you sub it out for us?
Or whatever else.
But there's a lot of sort of delaying,
especially when you're on tour, like,
I'll deal with this when I'm off tour.
I mean, IE even in my personal
life, I had to do a lot of that.
And for my loved ones or my
than loved ones, they were like,
know, you know, what do you mean?
And so, uh, in a sense, I, on tour,
I was running away constantly.
Not, I was running away with
a purpose, it was my job.
But you know, it was easier to deal
with things in a remote way or say in
September when I'm home, we'll have to
deal with that, you know, or, or for you,
you know, you, I remember you would say
like, I have all my stuff in storage.
I mean, I have a huge footprint of
all this stuff that I've collected.
So, know, I, I'm always like, I gotta
keep it all to, I gotta keep enough
money coming in to pay for, you know, the
overhead of, of everything that I've got.
And that in itself becomes crippling.
So, it's an odd, a really odd thing,
but it is really difficult to get
like a loan or to get, you know, if
you haven't established credit or you
haven't, you know, done other work.
So, I mean, that's been my thing
of like doing a lot of different
things in around music is to
try, try and get that stability.
I mean, I, I would prefer stability,
but I haven't really found it.
I would say, even with what I'm
doing now, because, you know,
consumer sentiment is at a, in a, in
a, would say it's at a weird spot.
And that would be really generous
of me to say that, you know.
And I, and I, you know, if I'm
waking up, I'm like, I don't know
what's gonna happen tomorrow.
I gotta look at the news.
You know, and informing people's choices
on like, whether they go, you know, not so
much whether they go buy an $8 coffee, but
whether they buy, you know, spend another
$40 beyond that on a book or whatever.
I mean, just the way it is.
Or, you know, buying a concert ticket,
which concert tickets are, you know,
upwards towards a hundred dollars and
up with all the fees and or, you know,
your car payment, you know, your rent.
There's all of these different things.
And how do you, you know, how
do you kind of make it work?
I think, I don't know if we can
do my question that I had for you.
Or, or if you do it at the very end of,
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, we, well,
I usually do it at the end.
We can do it right now.
Do you want to.
Andrew Sandoval: so, yeah,
let's do, let's do it.
So, uh, my question for you had been...
now here's my background.
I've been working in the music
business since I was a teenager,
as you, as you've heard.
And you know, my savings has
gone up and it's gone down.
And mostly I've invested in my
own projects and some of them
have been very successful and
some of them modestly successful.
I haven't had any abject failures,
but I've never really invested outside
of like, oh, I bought, I bought a
copy of The Beatles, uh, yesterday
and today I was in Iowa City.
I bought a beautiful butcher block cover
a thousand dollars, but I knew that
it was worth more, and I flipped it
and I made a couple thousand dollars.
Right.
But it was still an expensive investment.
But, but that's been the level
of my investing to this point.
I've never, never indulged in the stock
market or, or even, you know, when I had
a Roth IRA, I had to get rid of it to, to
get some, you know, more liquid income.
So what would be a, a good first step for
somebody wanting to dip their toe into the
investment market to try and get something
where it wouldn't be tying up a lot of
liquid income, but you know, something.
Timothy Iseler: I am glad you gave
me that context, and I'm glad you
said that thing about the Roth IRA.
'cause I did wanna bring that up.
When you emailed me, you specifically
mentioned limited liquid, and
that's one thing I want...
i, I do like the idea of people
putting money in retirement accounts.
I think they give you really great
tax advantages, and, and I, I would
be happy if anyone did that, but there
are penalties, sometimes penalties
and taxes when you take your money
out before a certain age, and so
in that sense, you know, they're
liquid, but you pay a steep price.
And so in that sense, they're
kind of illiquid because there's,
they come with these hefty fees.
So there's, what you might just call like
an air quotes, regular investment account,
a brokerage account, it's also called a
taxable investment account, and it's, it
doesn't give you any of the advantages of
a retirement account, but the upside is
that you can turn everything into money,
into cash at any time and get it out,
you know, typically next business day.
So that, that's first of all a point I
wanna make is whatever you're investing
in, if it's in a retirement account,
you should count on it being kind of
locked up until age 59 and a half is the
official age, which is, I always think
it's dumb, it should be age 60 'cause who
remembers when they turn 59 and a half.
But...
so with all that said about account
types, I think this the best way to
get started for somebody, somebody like
you, somebody who's just starting out,
is with whatever is the simplest thing
that you can stick with for a long time.
So whether you can do $10 a month or
a thousand dollars a month, whatever
you're, wherever you're at, if you can
keep putting money into an investment
account consistently, the, the superpower
that everybody has when it comes
to investing is compounding growth,
which it's kind of hard for people to
understand because most of the things
we deal with in our lives are linear.
You know, like how fast can you run?
That's a linear thing to figure out.
But exponential things are kind of
hard for our brains to understand.
So compounding growth starts very
slow and then it dramatically
ramps up into the right, you know?
And you only get that if you can
stick with it for a long time.
And so that's, that's why I think
whatever is the simplest thing you
can stick with for a long time.
A good example is just a
US stock market index fund.
It's kind of like a plain vanilla type of
investment, but it's easy to understand,
you can put your money into for you,
you're putting your money into just one
thing, but you're effectively owning
tiny slices of hundreds or even thousands
of different companies, so you're not
putting all of your eggs in one basket.
And like you, most self-employed people
tend to invest in themselves very heavily,
and I think that's amazing, but it is
sort of a situation of putting your all e
all of your eggs in just your one basket.
And so if you can put some into another
basket by investing in someone else's
business, you know, like, like the
stock market, I think it's a good idea.
I also think if you're, I'm not
saying this, that you are like,
timid about the stock market, but
if somebody is sort of nervous about
that, I think just starting at a level
where it doesn't feel threatening.
So if a hundred bucks a month
doesn't feel threatening to, you
start out at that level and you can
kind of watch it go up and down.
You know, you give it a few years and
it'll go up, it'll go down, but if
you kind of stick with it long enough,
you'll notice it turn into your favor.
And for me, when I started investing,
it was probably, probably around
three or four years where I was, I
was sticking at it very earnestly.
And some years were up
and some years are down.
And then, and then it got to a point
where it's like, oh, this is, this
is a significant amount of growth.
It wasn't yet a significant amount of
money, but it was like, this is bigger.
You know, it's, it's not
just 10% more than I put in.
It's like every year it's much bigger.
Does that make sense?
Andrew Sandoval: It makes total
sense and it makes me feel a lot more
secure in doing something like that.
And that you have a, you have a
specific, because often when you would
go to, if, if you were to go to like
a q and a or something, people would
be like, well, I don't wanna give you
any specifics, but in general, you
know, you have to talk in generality.
So I, I do appreciate you gave a
specific thing to start on and I think
that that's, that's really reasonable.
I know after we worked together in 2016,
as you say, it was a, it was a big year.
It was a really big year for the
Monkees as far as, they had a new
album out that I had worked on a bit.
It was, uh, their first
top 10 record since 1968.
We had this huge tour for their 50th
anniversary, and we worked, you know, we
went to 40 of the 50 states that year.
It was probably the most work that they'd
done since like the eighties really.
And then we went to Australia as well.
But after that, I had a considerable
amount of money from working all
that time and not being home,
not paying for my food every day.
And you know, I mean, I was still
paying my rent and whatever else,
but I had, you know, I came home
to like put back together my life.
Which was also like when you're
out on tour all the time, whatever
your local social life is kind of
dwindles 'cause people call you
and you're like, yeah, I'm on tour.
And then they just stop
calling you at a certain point.
They're like, yeah, you
know, he's always gone.
So the people for year, like,
there's like, oh, are you in town?
They still say this to
me like 10 years later.
It's like, yeah, I'm, I'm in town.
the next thing that I did
was producing another show.
Because I was, I had invested in producing
the Monkees show and for specific reasons,
not so much for the financial remuneration
I would get at the end, which there was
a really good one on that tour, and was
on most of the tours I did with them.
However, the main thing was
for the creative control that I
could have over what was on the
stage, what was being presented.
So if they had of like, well, let's do
like a 20 minute blues song, I'd say no.
And I'd have a lot more gravitas
because I'd say, I've just paid for
all the plane fares and, you know, I
advance you the money for the buses
and all this other stuff, which I did.
And that, you know, there were times
where like $80,000 on my credit
card when Michael Nesmith needed to
go in and have a quadruple bypass.
And I had to sit with that and like,
is Michael Seth gonna make it out?
You know, he's somebody I've known for
since, since I was a teenager, you know.
Is he going to live?
Is he going to die?
Is is, you know, is, is the $80,000 gone?
Like all that stuff.
I mean, it ended up working out okay, but
you know, you have these different levels
of like, you're personally invested, not
just financially, but emotionally too.
So the next thing I did after,
after the Big Monkees tour in 20 16,
20 17, I did another tour with, a
tribute band noticed tribute bands
always had like a sure fire audience.
People were like, I'm gonna get
to hear the hits of The Beatles?
Okay, great.
So this band, the Fab Four had been
touring for 30 years doing this
Beatles thing and I'd seen 'em a lot.
I love The Beatles.
So I thought, well they do a great show
and then what if I combined them with
Micky Dolenz, where you get like The
Beatles and the Monkees on One Show?
And then the people I worked with
who were the booking agents said,
well, like maybe one other element.
So I got Mark Lindsay of Paul
Revere and the Raiders, who was
the lead singer of their, there,
he's still great voice in that era.
And Micky had a great voice.
And then the Fab four were thrilled
because they could break out of
doing just their Beatles thing.
I found though, when we got on tour
with them, they want to do very, a very
short set of the Beatles and then do
this Monkees Raiders thing at the end.
And then, and I'd have to go and like,
you guys need to do a longer Beatle
set, because actually more people
are coming to see you do your Beatles
impersonation than seeing these actual
guys from the sixties do their hits.
I mean, they're like, that's cool.
But we came to hear the Beatles.
So that was counterintuitive to them.
But I was like really afraid of
like, Hey, I've done this successful
thing I'm going to, the next thing
I do is gonna be even bigger.
I was like, I gotta look at
what's the safest sort of bet.
But even that one was like, it
did okay, but it didn't really
push things forward that much.
And um, it was interesting though.
I was having, having been more
successful, I felt I was more cautious
coming out of the success than I
was going into becoming successful.
So I, I dunno if that will resonate
with some of the people listening,
but sometimes success doesn't
always build, uh, confidence.
Sometimes it builds insecurity.
And I certainly felt really insecure
financially after, because I
didn't wanna lose what I'd worked
so many years to, to build up.
So I thought like, what can I do
that's not gonna be totally stupid,
you know, I'm not gonna go buy
a boat or something, you know?
But, um, anyway.
Timothy Iseler: yeah, I mean, do
you feel like you were able to take
that success and, and extend it?
I mean, may, you know, not, maybe not
the same level of that 2016 amount
of income, but like, did it work?
Andrew Sandoval: Well, yes and no.
I mean, it worked for a
certain amount of time.
It, it gave me, The, um, ability to
invest in all these other different,
you know, invest in myself and
these other creative projects.
Most of what had physical, results,
not just like, well, I decided to
study poetry or philosophy for a year
and I really feel better about myself.
Or, you know, I'm doing
much better with my health.
Whatever.
I, my thing was always like, well, that
means that I could do this project for
this record company, and they're not,
they're gonna pay me like almost next
to nothing, and then I'm gonna work
all this thing, but I get to do this
project that I would want to do anyway.
So I essentially became, start
to subsidize other people's
projects with my own savings.
Which seems like a bad idea, but
to me it was like, well, this is
what I want to do with my life.
To me, it's as important
as, you know, going away and
learning yoga or, or, you know.
Finding, finding the meaning of life.
It's like I get to work on such and such.
Well, it would normally never
happen, but it's happening because,
know, I'm sort of saying it doesn't
matter how much money I make on
this, I just really want to do this.
But I, so I did that
for a number of years.
Now I'm sort of back to Square one of
now with this new project I'm doing with
the Kinks, because it's not the Monkees.
And I, I did work with the Kinks on
their reissues for a number of years.
So I have this background with them, but
building a new audience of consumers,
for lack of a better, I call them readers
or whatever can call 'em, whatever,
but basically they're your people.
And you know, you may find one group of
people, but you have to find the next
group if you want to diversify out.
It's just like if you are in a band and
then you go solo, as we talked about
at the beginning of this, the people
who loved your band are not necessarily
gonna come see your solo thing.
It's gonna be a small
part of that audience.
And so find myself in
a changing environment.
You know, I think that that's what
you deal with in a music career too.
It's just like, stuff
changes by the day, you know?
Oh, well we were on tour now
the singer hurt his back.
We can't go on.
We have to, the, all
the dates are delayed.
We gotta, everything we paid for
is not paid for, you know, uh,
we have to postpone everything.
Or we may go back, or, or
maybe they're injured and they
may never go back on tour.
Maybe they're like, I never want
to tour again because i, you
know, I just had this thing like,
where I just can't do it anymore.
And that happens.
So you have to be prepared to
just be r riding this thing.
It's like, it's so unstable and,
and so, Maybe your advice is gonna
be the, the, the, uh, salvation
of not just me, but other people.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Well, I, I definitely think about it
this way as like, uh, well, let me
say that I know some people, the way
they interact with the stock market
is very active and they're like
buying and selling and trading in and
out, and they're on it all the time.
And I don't do that.
I don't do that for myself.
I don't do it for my clients
because number one, I think it
doesn't actually work all that well.
I mean, there's no evidence
that anyone is any good at it.
And like I said earlier, I think the,
the most success anyone can have is to
own an investment for a very long time.
Let's say instead that you bought a,
whatever, a 1959 Fender Jazz Master,
Andrew Sandoval: right.
Timothy Iseler: And you got a good deal
on it, and you could turn around and
sell it, but if you kept it for five
years, it would be worth more money.
If you kept it for five more
years, it'd be worth more money.
And, and so to me the best kind of
investing is that way where you buy
the thing and you let it work for you
while you're not even paying attention.
And in that way, like as you were talking
about all the work that you put into
your business and all of the hustle
and whatever, and it's like, imagine
if you could get a cut of someone else
who is hustling that hard, so their
business and a hundred other people like
them, or 500 other people like them.
And that's that at, at its best,
that's kind of what you're doing.
You're saying like, well, you know, I
don't know, pick on whoever you wanna
pick on Apple, Microsoft, whoever.
You're like, maybe they run
a better business than I do.
Maybe they're smarter
about business than I am.
I could own a, you know, I can buy this
US index fund and I can own a tiny slice.
And when they do a good
job, I do a good job.
And you know, if they do a bad job,
I've got uh, you know, hundreds of
other companies that will fill the void.
But the point I wanted to make is
like, if you're investing like that
consistently, it should be making
work, making money for you over time
without you doing any extra work.
Because what I find with, you know,
everybody I know who's self-employed,
just generally, but certainly creatives,
it's like you hustle and you hustle
and you hustle and you hustle.
And if you get a little bit of success,
you can't let off the gas that much.
You know, you, if you get a hit record
and you wait too long that nobody,
you know, you lose your momentum.
So investing should not be
hustling, in my opinion.
It should be like, let your
money do something while you're
focused on the other stuff.
Does that make sense?
Andrew Sandoval: So, yeah, totally.
And so an index fund versus
say like a mutual fund...
Timothy Iseler: oh, great.
So, a fund, generally speaking, this
is a little bit of jargon, it's called
a pooled investment vehicle, where
a bunch of investors, you know, I'm
doing air quotes, pool their money,
and then the fund buys the investments.
So you, as the investor in the
fund, you own a share of the fund,
and the fund owns whatever it owns.
It could be stocks, it could
be bonds, it could be a mix.
A mutual fund is one type of fund, and
I don't want to get like two in the
weeds on this, but it has to do with,
um, sort of how they collect the money
when they do transactions, et cetera.
Another type of fund is called an
exchange traded fund, eTF is the,
the, uh, you know, the short version.
They operate from a consumer point of
view, they operate exactly the same way.
You buy one share, you know,
you can buy the Vanguard Total
Stock Market Mutual Fund or the
Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF.
From a consumer point of view,
they do the exact same thing.
It's sort of like what's under the
hood that's a little different.
And an index fund just means
a fund that tracks an index.
So like the s and p 500 is an index,
or the NASDAQ 100 is an index.
So you could buy, Vanguard has one, I'm
using Vanguard 'cause they're a very well
known low cost fund company, but they
have a, a fund that all it does is it
tracks the s and p 500, whatever, whatever
is in there, that's what they own.
If a company gets added, they buy it.
If a company gets kicked
out, they sell it.
And so it's a way for you to buy one
thing and get exposure to 500 things,
or they have another thing called
the total stock market index, which
is over 2000 different companies.
So you can buy one thing, whether
that's a mutual fund or an ETF,
and it just tracks an index.
Does that make sense?
Andrew Sandoval: It makes sense.
And so if you, is it intuitive to
think that if you get into this and
you watch it for a couple of years and
then you see certain elements of the
investment that these people have made
on your behalf, and you're like, oh,
I'm interested in that, then you might
go and dabble in buying some stocks
directly of that specific company.
Timothy Iseler: that does
logically follow and that also
follows my investment journey.
I would say it, it kind of depends on how
excited you are about the whole thing.
Some people are like, great, my
investments are doing well, that's good.
And some people are like,
oh, I'm excited about this.
I wanna learn more.
That was, that was my experience is I,
I had been investing in some funds, and
one thing you can do is if you've, you
know, like I said, you can, you can get
pretty far just doing a basic stock market
index fund, but you might say like, I
want something that is a little less
volatile, doesn't go up and down as much.
Maybe I'll balance that
with a bond market fund.
You know, bonds are less growth
oriented but also less volatile.
So you balance it out a little, or maybe
you say, I want something that's not U.S..
You could get like a, you know,
a what's called developed market,
which is basically, you know, non-US,
well-regulated international economies.
So eu uh, different parts of Asia,
different, you know, Australia would
be considered developed market.
You could say like, I want to diversify.
So those are some things you can do.
But like you said, if you get into
investing, if you like it, if it's
interesting to you, buying some
individual stocks is a totally, I
think it's a totally fine thing to do.
I think it should be something you do when
you have a lot of conviction because it
is inherently more risky because you are
sort of saying like, instead of putting
my money into 500 different companies,
I'm gonna put it in one company.
You know, so it, it can
be a little more risky.
But if it's something you really
believe in and you can be patient,
it can pay off in a big way.
I'll also say that for everyone from like
the amateur to like top level professional
investors, you know, like Warren Buffet,
it's one of the most famous living
American investors, like he's had duds.
Everybody has duds.
So if you're buying individual companies,
you should expect that if you do an
all right job of it, some of them will
do really well, some of them will do
average, and some of them will tank.
And that's just kind of
the nature of the thing.
And if, yeah.
But the, if you, if you do it and
you hang on to the ones that are
doing well, they kind of overtake
the ones that are underperforming.
Andrew Sandoval: But if you're, if you're
just in an index fund, then you've got
kind of a potpourri of things and you're
sort of, kind of covered for the, the good
and the bad, and you are just sort of...
is there, is there a good, so we talked
about point of entry for this, uh, I've,
so I don't, since I don't currently have
any investments, you know, and I see
advertisements and things like that,
people online, like are there are apps
and things like that, is there a starting
point of, of where, you know, you don't
have to give one specific one, but like a
couple of different places where you, you
know, something that you say, well, you
might wanna check out this app or that app
to like, begin your investment journey.
Or do you just go directly to, say
Vanguard or something like that?
Timothy Iseler: Well, this is my
opinion on it, because I worked with
someone who had a Robinhood account
and trying to get the money out of
the Robinhood account was a pain.
And it wasn't a huge amount of money
and the fees involved with getting
the money out kind of made it like,
it, it, I think they probably lost
something like five or 10% of their
money just getting it out of Robinhood.
So, and,
Andrew Sandoval: Right.
Timothy Iseler: and I'm not trying to
pick on Robinhood, but that happens to
be the example that I'm thinking of.
And so some of those apps that
make it very easy, they kind of
make it hard to get your money out.
Some bigger companies that I have,
that I have used as a consumer,
you know, not as a professional,
are Vanguard, Schwab, and Fidelity.
And I have no affiliation with
any of them, but I have used them
and they make it pretty easy.
I have a little bit of an affinity
to Vanguard 'cause they were the
pioneers of low cost funds so that
average people could be involved
in, in investing in that way.
But Fidelity and Schwab and
Vanguard, they all make it very easy.
I'm not trying to solicit work
from you, but it is also something
that I do, so you know, it.
Andrew Sandoval: right.
So, well, but that's, but that's the
sort of the general, I, I always felt
like if, if we, with, you know, if I
encountered people along the way who
talked a lot about money or bragged
about I've got this going or that
going, I always felt like they must not
have very much money if they're brag.
My, that's my, the, I don't
know where I picked that up.
I was like, if, if anybody's bragging
about it, it's usually they don't have
as, as much money as they say they are.
It's the, the people who don't talk
about it, and that's like, sort
of the subject of your podcast.
It's like they might have a lot more
on the ball, like, you know, if they're
not throw throwing it out there.
Anyway, it, it's, it's interesting to me
for sure, uh, because there is the sense
that I, I do feel less well-rounded.
I'm like, there's something I'm
missing, you know, uh, by not
understanding this, this thing and
being kind of scared of it in a way.
which I think a lot of money is
really scary for a lot of people.
Um, and I think a lot of that also
comes from whatever your background
is and how, how much that was a factor
in, in, uh, your childhood of, of,
you know, your wellbeing and people
have, are financially insecure, like
their food insecure and other things.
I mean, if you grew up not having a lot
of money or your parents were always
hustling for money or they're always in
debt, or, you know, you had to move a
lot or you had to, you know, all these
things can make you really freaked out
about it and not give you the confidence
to feel like you can trust people.
Or you can trust the thing.
I mean, you and I have encountered,
I'm sure I, I speak in general, but
lot of artists who don't feel they
can trust anybody, not just with their
money, but with anything, because
they've had so many bad experiences.
And sometimes it's, it's
like adopting a shelter pet.
It's like you think, well, like,
it'll be different with me.
Like, you know, but you're gonna get
scratched and bitten at, at the outset
of it because these people have had
so many, in, in, being able to trust.
So I mean, as a financial advisor, I'm
sure you run into a lot of people who
it's difficult for them to, to trust.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah, I definitely
have worked with people where...
I do, I offer two different
types of services.
One is investment management and
the other is financial planning.
And I've worked with people where
they hire me to do a financial
plan, and from the beginning
they're like, absolutely not.
I do not want you to
manage my investments.
Right?
It's, it's crystal clear.
And then by the time we're sort
of wrapping up the financial plan,
they're like, Hey, would you mind
managing these accounts for me?
So it kind of, it can take
weeks or sometimes months to
build up that kind of trust.
And I don't take it personally because,
you know, for someone who's never met me,
or even someone who has met me, but they
know me from my previous life and maybe
they're just a little nervous about it,
um, I don't take that personally at all.
But what I try to do for everyone
is that I work with, is make it
as non-threatening as possible.
So I can't tell you today is the stock
market gonna be up or is it gonna be down?
I have no idea.
I have no idea if this year is
gonna be a good year or a bad year.
But I'm pretty confident that
if we zoom out over the next 10
years, the stock market will be up.
If we zoom out over the entire rest of
your life, the stock market will be up.
You know?
So I try to, if for that reason, it's
like I, I don't want anyone to take their
whole life savings and put it in something
that is gonna like, stress them out.
But if you can put some amount of money
in now, you know, maybe it's every month,
maybe you put a 10th of your money in now
and a 10th of your money in later and,
you know, kind of spread it out so you, it
feels like less of a risk, if that helps
you stick with it, I think it's better.
I think whatever makes you stick with
it will make you a better investor, even
if it's not like what the spreadsheet
says you should do or whatever.
You know what I mean?
Andrew Sandoval: Yeah, I, I guess the
takeaway is sort of like, well, A, don't
put all your eggs in one basket and B,
you know, it shouldn't be everything
as far as, which is the same thing, but
it shouldn't be everything is like, you
gotta keep doing your thing and it if,
if you're gonna be constantly freaked out
about, well, I just saw the stock market
like plummeted on the news of new tariffs.
What am I gonna do?
It's like, well, yeah, but it may
rebound by the end of the week or by
the end of the year, or what, you know?
You can't, you can't be freaked
out about that right now.
In a sense, I mean, it's an investment,
but it's also a little bit of a gamble.
just like if you put a hundred dollars
down on what something you thought
was a sure thing, and then you lost
the a hundred dollars, you know,
you have to be prepared for that.
You, you, that can't, the
a hundred dollars can't be
your last a hundred dollars.
Timothy Iseler: Right, exactly.
And if you need, if you're gonna need
that a hundred dollars at the grocery
store next week, like don't invest it.
I tell people, if you know that
you're gonna need, well, first
of all, I think everybody should
maintain some cash savings at all
times to cover a few months worth of
expenses, just generally speaking.
So don't invest money you might
need to spend in the next few
months for your necessities.
But if you know that there's something
you need to buy in the next one to two
to three years, like if you're saving up
to buy a house or you need to buy a car
next year, like don't invest that money.
Keep it in cash.
You know?
'cause you never know what's gonna
happen in the stock market next year when
you wanna put down that down payment.
But if you're talking about, I
wanna put money aside now so that,
you know, when I'm 70, maybe I
don't have to work full-time.
You know, maybe, maybe I could afford
to take, uh, you know, work part-time.
Maybe I could even retire.
Like, if you're talking about that
timeframe of, you know, decades or the
rest of your life, then the ups and
downs from whatever, tariff news or
whatever, whatever's in the news today,
20 years from now, will seem quaint.
You know what I mean?
Like even the, the 2000 eight,
2009 stock market crash in the rear
view mirror, it looks like, ah, if
you had just been investing right
then you would've made a fortune.
But everybody was scared right then.
You know what I mean?
It's like, it's the hardest
time to do when you're scared.
Andrew Sandoval: Right, and I mean we,
I mean, you know, I think the pandemic
of 2020 may have been even scarier, but
the fact that so many world financial...
Timothy Iseler: i.
Andrew Sandoval: Of governments and,
and, and businesses and everything
made it so everybody got, tried to get
people through it because they were
hoping that on the other end of it, uh,
that, you know, things would be back.
And, and things, you know, to an extent,
I mean, we're all a little bit scarred
from it, but things are back in a big way
as far as the things that we used to do.
And it's sort of scary thinking, you know?
it's almost like it
didn't happen, but it did.
My last question, uh, of, of my
different questions is, so, so as
a, as, like, I was a younger person,
always, I was like the youngest person
around all these people, and now
they're a lot of passed on or whatever,
and, or they're retired or whatever.
But I, I don't feel like, so other
than investing, it's like I also see
various things about cryptocurrency
and other non-traditional, non
actual physical and, and, and paper.
Does that play a role into, into anything
that you, uh, deal with in your life, or
what, what's your point, uh, take on it.
Timothy Iseler: Well in, in terms of
my professional life, I am not able
to buy and sell cryptocurrencies
for clients the same way I can buy
and sell investments for clients.
Andrew Sandoval: Mm-hmm.
Timothy Iseler: That's just what it is.
I'm not sure if there's any
investing platform that lets
someone like me do that.
There might be.
In my personal life, I do
own some cryptocurrency.
And just for complete disclosure, I own a
very small amount of Bitcoin and Ethereum.
And I know for me, I happen to have
a very high risk tolerance, meaning
I can deal with it going up and
going down and dropping 30% in a day.
Like I can handle that.
And I am thinking about that
as like a long-term thing.
I took a, a certain amount of money that
I felt comfortable committing to that.
And I'm just gonna see how it goes.
For most people, I think when they
hear about cryptocurrency, they hear
about the success stories and they
get excited and like, oh, the, this is
no joke, the first time I heard about
Bitcoin it was $1 per coin, right?
And I could have made a fortune, but I was
like, this doesn't make any sense at all.
So people had had these, this
idea of like, oh, if only I
had done this, I missed out.
But it's only appropriate for someone
who has an extremely high risk tolerance.
'cause it's all very speculative.
There are like these, the stable
coins that are tethered typically
to a US dollar, but that's not a
growth asset, that's a stable asset.
So if you're talking about something
like Bitcoin, it's completely
speculative and it may have great
long-term potential, but you have to,
you have to have like a speculator's
mindset if you're going to do that.
And for almost everyone that
I work with, they are too risk
averse for something like that.
Even if they're sort of like, Hey, I
heard about this, should I do this?
It's like the reality of watching your
investment be cut in half in a week,
for some people, that's just too much.
So I'm not gonna say that I,
I'm not gonna say it's like a
great decision for everyone.
I'm not gonna say it's a
terrible decision for everyone.
It's just like.
It's an okay decision if you have a
really high risk tolerance and you can
pick some amount of money that you're
comfortable if it goes away forever.
Andrew Sandoval: Right.
Well.
I'm glad to hear that viewpoint
because it's very balanced and, you
know, non, non-emotional as far as,
as far as where you're coming from.
Because I mean, that's the thing, if I
was gonna make that kind of investment,
I think I would make it in, in myself to
do some crazy project that, you know, at
least would have, you know, I'd feel good.
Well, at least I did that.
You know?
I, many times I've run into
the, this in my career, which is
like sending some advance to an
artist, uh, for a tour, whatever.
I did these, a couple tours
of, uh, British invasion
artists, uh, about 12 years ago.
And it was, it was great 'cause
I love that music so much, but I
had one artist, uh, Jerry Marston
of Jerry and the Pacemakers who,
who's now deceased, heart problems.
No, no joke.
But I did love his music.
And, um, you know, he was supposed to
come on this tour and I had to send
him $50,000 as an advance against
what his guarantee was for the
individual shows that we had booked.
it was a real risk.
And then he ultimately couldn't travel
to the United States, and I had to
get the money back, which I did get
the money back, but, you know, it
was a little bit of a nail biter.
But I thought, like, I really
don't wanna lose $50,000.
Nobody wants to lose $50,000, but it's
like still operating in this world of
like, these are the things that I love.
So I, at least I'm, I feel in a moral
sense, I'm, I, you know, if I lost this
money and it would be tragic for me,
would still be like, well, I, I was doing
something that I thought was right, you
know, like, and ultimately I got it back.
And then we had to go on tour
and he had been billed, uh,
on a number of these shows.
And so I had to tell each of the buyers,
if anybody comes to the, you know, to,
to somebody at the theater or wherever
we're at the casino and says, Hey,
I'm unhappy, I thought I was gonna see
this guy, we will give him money back.
And the ended up the money that we had
to give back was pretty negligible.
And, you know,
but you don't know going in
like, are people gonna, like,
is this gonna collapse things?
But you, you know, there was
enough of everything else.
But it, it's just, you know, these are
the experiences that I've had of, of
trying to put money into things that
I believed in, or I thought like, I'm
gonna do this thing that other people
do, but I'm gonna do it in a little
bit of a different way that I think
might be elevated or a little better.
So.
Timothy Iseler: yeah, yeah.
That makes sense.
And they're, the people that
are really into crypto tend
to feel that way about crypto.
They really, really believe it.
And it's almost like a religion to them.
So it's a, it's a good, good example.
You feel good about this?
Andrew Sandoval: Yeah.
Yeah, I do.
Timothy Iseler: Cool, cool.
Well, I have to say, I really
appreciated talking to you about this.
I mean, we did, we spent a lot
of time together in 2016, but
didn't talk all that much about
your, your background, your life.
And, and to me, one thing that really
stood out is how you, how much you're
approaching both the concerts and
the books as like, what is missing?
What does a fan want?
What's missing from the experience
and how can we give them that?
And I don't know, that stood out to
me, and I really appreciate that.
Andrew Sandoval: Well, yeah, I mean,
I mean, if I wasn't, you know, at
the front of house or, or backstage
or whatever, running around, doing
what I do or, or sitting, you know,
writing about it, I, I, you know, I'm
a consumer and I'd be out at the venue.
these artists or buying the
books or buying the records.
'cause this is what I love and this,
you know, I'm doing all those things so
I can keep, you know, buying and, uh,
and trading the, the things that I love.
And, and so, it's, um, it's good.
But, but we all, I think
everybody wants more stability.
So hopefully the things we talked
about, people take something from
it and at least feel empathy for
the, for their predicament or feel
like, Hey, that's not a bad idea.
I should, I should do that.
So that would be, that
would be a great thing.
Timothy Iseler: Yeah.
Awesome.
That seems like a great place to wrap up.
Thank you to Andrew for
speaking with me today.
This conversation was a total pleasure
because, although he and I spent a lot
of time together in 2016, I don't recall
us talking much about our personal
lives or even all that much about music.
I loved learning how everything
Andrew puts his energy and often his
own money into is driven by his love
of music and collector's mindset.
Music is, as he describes
it, his religion.
And I don't think I realized the depth of
that commitment when we worked together.
So thanks again to Andrew for
speaking with me, and you can find
his deluxe books on the Kinks and
the Monkees at beatlandbooks.com.
Again, that's B-E-A-T-L-A-N-D books.com.
That's it for today.
I will be back next week to talk about
getting your financial house in order
-what that means, what it involves, and
how it makes you feel once you've done it.
Spoiler alert, this is also the first
part of every financial planning
engagement, so you'll get a little
sneak peek into what that looks like.
I will see you back here next week.
The Thing We Never Talk
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may have interests for or against
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Thank you so much for listening.
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