Grazing Grass Podcast : Sharing Stories of Regenerative Ag | e111. Revisiting Mack Farms with Eli Mack

Join us as we reconnect with Eli Mack of Mack Farms, who returns to share the evolution of his regenerative livestock operation since his initial visit on the podcast. Eli gives us an enlightening update on his holistic management training and how it's shaping the expansion of his farm. Focusing on cattle and sheep, and occasionally poultry, Eli offers valuable insights into the art of regenerative grazing. As we chat, we also discuss the broader impacts of these practices on the ecosystem and community, and how they're paving the way for the future of agriculture.

In our conversation, we tackle the practical aspects of expanding livestock operations, with personal anecdotes about land acquisition and the challenges that come with it, such as water access and managing parasite issues with minimal intervention. Eli and I both share experiences from our respective farms, highlighting the importance of livestock genetics in creating hardy breeds and our experiments with mixed-species grazing and innovative fencing strategies. These stories not only provide a peek into the daily life of a regenerative farmer but also serve as a testament to the commitment required to maintain and grow a successful operation.

Finally, we wrap up with an exploration of the principles of holistic land management and the transformative journey of becoming an accredited professional with the Savory Institute. Eli's experiences underscore the value of continuous learning and adapting, while I chime in with my own approach to embracing progress and the resources that have influenced my farming practices. Whether you're a seasoned farmer or someone curious about sustainable agriculture, this episode is packed with practical advice, personal reflections, and encouragement to take that first step towards a regenerative future.

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Noble Research Institute
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What is Grazing Grass Podcast : Sharing Stories of Regenerative Ag?

The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.

This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?

Welcome to the Grazing
Grass Podcast Episode 111.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: You have
your lane, something that's been

given you to run with, you've
been blessed with something.

Just start where you are,
embrace what's around you.

Cal: You're listening to the Grazing Grass
Podcast, sharing information and stories

of grass based livestock production
utilizing regenerative practices.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage.

You're growing more than grass.

You're growing a healthier
ecosystem to help your cattle

thrive in their environment.

You're growing your livelihood by
increasing your carrying capacity

and reducing your operating costs.

You're growing stronger communities
and a legacy to last generations.

The grazing management
decisions you make today.

impact everything from the soil beneath
your feet to the community all around you.

That's why the Noble Research
Institute created their Essentials

of Regenerative Grazing course to
teach ranchers like you easy to follow

techniques to quickly assess your forage
production and infrastructure capacity.

In order to begin
grazing more efficiently.

Together, they can help you grow
not only a healthier operation,

but a legacy that lasts.

Learn more on their website at noble.

org slash grazing.

It's n o b l e dot org
forward slash grazing.

On today's show we have Eli Mack
of Mack Farms, and if you've been

a longtime listener of the podcast,
that name may be familiar to you.

Eli joined me on a very early episode
of the podcast, in fact, episode 5.

If you've not listened
to it, Go listen to it.

Talks about his journey and
what he's doing, and that would

happen in November of 2020.

So, here we are, three and a half years
later, and I asked Eli to come back on

and share about his journey since then.

One thing in particular, he was
starting his holistic journey and

some training there and what's
gone on with that since that time.

Also, we talk about his farm and how
it's expanding and what he's doing there.

It's a wonderful episode.

Eli is always a wonderful
guest, so I hope you enjoy it.

And if you like this style where
we reach back to some of our old

guests and bring them on to update
us about their progress, let me know.

We do have August Horstman on a
future episode doing the same thing.

It's been about three years
since he's been on the podcast.

So trying a little bit different
to bring some of those guests back.

I really appreciate Eli
coming on episode 5.

You know at that time we were, my
downloads for a month, were very few.

So I really appreciate
him coming on and sharing.

He's got lots of knowledge and
I think you'll really enjoy it.

As we look ahead to next week, we have
Steve Kenyon on and that's a really good

episode and the following episode will be
August Horstman 10 seconds about my farm.

You've heard me speak about
my accidental lambing season

and we just sold those lambs.

We did something different
that we usually don't do.

We weaned them.

and directly sold them.

It's the first time we've done that.

Um, actually I was quite pleased
with what we got and how it worked.

Um, very low effort on our part.

I don't know if we'll do that
again, but it worked out this time.

So I was pleased with that.

Uh, lambing season's going good.

Currently we've got 90 lambs on the
ground with a 140 percent lamb crop.

I really was worried about that
percentage is really lower in the

season, in the, yeah, lambing season.

It's barely been here, but we've
got 90 lambs on the ground.

Um, we had a lot of singles at first,
but now we're getting a lot of twins.

One thing, we've been growing the flock,
so we've been keeping all the ewe lambs.

So we have a large percentage of ewe lambs
that causes that number to be decreased.

But lambing season is going good.

We also grafted some pecan trees.

We had OSU Extension out
from, um, Mayes County.

Mike Rose came out and helped us.

And Tara from Craig County came over
and we grafted a few pecan trees.

We have done that in the past.

I say we.

Very loosely, my dad has done it
in the past, but it's been a couple

decades and I think the last time
we tried it didn't work very good.

So we wanted to get someone out
here to show us, make sure we

were on the right path with that.

So we were able to graft a few trees,
so we're excited to see how that goes.

It was a great, wonderful learning
experience and I appreciate Mike and

Tara coming out and helping us with that.

Enough of that.

Let's talk to Eli.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Eli,
we want to welcome you back

to the Grazing Grask podcast.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Thank you, Cal.

I'm happy to be back with you.

It's always a good time.

I'm excited to talk about some stuff.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: So Eli, you
were on the podcast for episode five.

I believe that was November of 2020.

So it's been a few years.

And just thought we would touch base
with you, see what's happening with you,

how things are going on your journey.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yes, sir.

I think you and I both commented
because I went back and listened

to the original episode to see.

What all we covered and where we left off.

And that way I could jump right in
on the on ramp and you'll probably

agree with me, but it's, rough hearing
your own voice played back to you.

I'm not a fan of that.

I'm sure you're not a fan of that.

I don't know anybody that is, but

that's, it's always a rough time.

But yeah, a lot.

There's a lot in that episode
that kind of caught my attention.

That's just different from where we
are now, starting points versus how

we've grown and some things that
we've stepped more into and some

things that we've stepped out of.

So it's been quite the journey here.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: At that time you
were using 20 acres with cattle and sheep.

And then I think you had poultry also.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah.

I think at that time I had some
turkeys that I was running.

And then I had some experimental pigs
at this point, I've just honed in

on the pastured animals, the cattle
and the sheep I do poultry off and

on, and I don't have pigs currently.

I just made the context decision
that's not where I fit right now.

Maybe one day I get back into it, but
for now I'm just sticking with my pasture

grazers out there being the Highland
cattle and the sheep, there's a Couple

oddball cows in the mix, but still using
the same home base, home farm, 20 acres.

And then I also purchased
an additional 41 acres.

That's adjacent to us across the road.

It doesn't interlink with our farm,
but I can get there if I have to walk.

Yeah, I can get there on a four wheeler.

I can take a truck or tractor.

It's close in proximity.

So we're going to make it work,

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Do you
manage that Did you say 40 acres?

And then 20 acres?

Do you manage that all as one piece,
so you're moving cattle and sheep from

one property to another as needed?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: right?

Not yet.

Just because that new
property is landlocked.

So we have to develop some
hard roads for better access.

And there's

no good water source yet.

It's a blank slate.

So that's something we're hoping

to address this year is get
water established over there.

So right now I'm just running a couple
head of sheep and a couple head of goats.

Just a small number that I can haul
water over with the four wheeler, no

big deal, check on them all the time.

But it would just be a little
bit too much of a chore.

Hauling water.

Everything over there is uphill.

Like it's a

bowl, a bold hillside and
hauling water, especially in the

wintertime would be difficult.

So for now, it's just sheep and
goats until we make some changes.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: And hauling
water to sheep and goats is a lot

different than hauling water to cattle.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: It is, I can
satisfy a couple of thirsty mouths with

a five gallon bucket versus needing
a whole water tote to keep the cows

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yeah.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026:
It's a big difference.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Now, do
you already have a plan in place

for how you're going to solve
your water issue over there?

Considering options?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: yeah, I
did dig into a couple different

options, but I think for now
we're planning to dig out a pond.

Like I said

it's a a hillside bowl.

So there's like this huge funnel
right in the middle where all this

water is coming into this pond.

And it's wet there all year round.

It holds water there all year round.

I had a crew out and they did
some test digs with me just

to look at the composition.

And they said, everything looks good.

It should hold water when we dig it out.

So that's what we're going to try to do.

We're going to try to collect all that
water coming down off the hillside.

And I like that a little bit better
than, you know, drilling wells and

digging for water here and there because
it's just a natural recycling of the

water as opposed to extracting it.

And also, I know at 1 point, the
mine kind of went under that part

of our neighborhood and a lot of
the neighbors wells got messed up.

So I don't even know what
you would get into trying to

drill and get a well or hit a,

made a water.

It's a little bit of a gamble right now.

I'm excited to just do.

The water catchment with the pond.

I think it should hold.

I think it'll catch enough
water and we'll be in business.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: With that
having a wet spot and of course you're

talking about your slopes there.

Sounds like a perfect location for a pond.

Now you mentioned mines.

What kind of, is it coal
mines or what do you have?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah,
it's big coal mine country here.

Big coal mine country here It's wound
down over the past couple decades, but

there's still some active mines going
on, but it would all be coal business

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024:
How deep is your coal there?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026:
That's a good question.

I haven't been down there cow I that
you know, if I get down there sometime

i'll take my

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh,

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: measure
with me and i'll figure it out But I

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024:
You'll let me know.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: I don't
know, to be honest with you.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: I know
in our area of Oklahoma, we have a

lot of coal mining going on here.

Actually, it is winding down, but
they dug, one of the properties I

use was recently dug and reclaimed,
so we're talking ten years ago.

But it's all strip mining
here, so it's surface access.

And I think they have a shallow
ribbon of coal about 30, 40 feet deep.

And then they have another one, and
I'm going to guess at this, at 70 feet.

And I think what happened, the area
was dug and they harvested that

shallow ribbon years, decades ago.

like 50s, 60s, and then they came back
and they dug that deeper one lately,

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Gotcha.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: or since 2000.

At least that's my understanding,
but to be honest, outside of driving

over there and marveling at how big
those tires are on the dump trucks,

I'm a decent sized person at 6'4
and those tires make me look small.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026:
You're six four Cal.

I didn't know that.

That's pretty tall.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024:
Yeah, It's deceiving.

I look a lot shorter on video and stuff.

And to be honest, I always told everyone
I'm 6'4 The doctor would probably say

I'm 6'3 but I'm gonna stick with that
6'4 And this is a complete tangent,

but I'm the runt in my family.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: serious?

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: My dad is
6'6 My brother is 6'9 Now, I'm taller

than my sister and mom, they're both
only 5'9 so I, I'm taller than them,

but, but my, we take, this is crazy,
I take a picture, I ought to post

a picture on one of the Instagrams
maybe my farm account sometime, of my

family, because you, when my dad, and
my brothers in there, and my nephews,

even my nieces, but especially with
my nephews, my brother, And my dad

in there, I look like a small guy.

It's just people would look at it and
if they would think either I'm small or

they're big and I'm just normal size.

But people tell me I'm pretty good size

and I'm trying to diet.

So that's okay.

One of those crazy things.

So Anyway, enough on that tangent.

So I think that's a great idea
about, you've got a wet area, a great

solution to getting water over there.

And that, and water is always
a limiting factor whenever

we try to use any property.

First we ask about fencing, and then
we're like, how are you getting water?

Because water is the toughest one.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah.

Yes, it is.

So that's what we went with.

We're going with a pond plan.

I think we'll be able to
pull that off here this year.

And that's been the, like you said,
the biggest limiting factor for me,

really leveraging the potential for
that property, because right now

it's just doing the bare minimum.

And

when you're doing small acreage
grazing, you have to make use of

most of the area that you get.

And that's why I sprung on this property.

Cause it's, I'm surrounded
by big landowners.

Yes.

all around our home farm.

These guys do hundreds
and hundreds of acres.

So this little lot came up for sale
and I grabbed it because I wasn't sure

if I would ever get the opportunity
to have a piece of land close to the

home farm like that again, or if in

the future, it might be somewhere
that's 20 minutes away from the

home farm and then that gets a
little bit hard logistically.

So this was

my one shot maybe in my lifetime.

I don't know, but I had to snag it.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: right.

Yeah, and I think that's excellent
that you did in that area.

Now, you have your cattle and
your sheep and a few goats.

Are you going to expand on those
numbers so you can utilize all that?

Is that the plan?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yep.

Yep.

That 40 acres is hopefully going
to stretch out our grazing season.

I would like to use them
all as one fluid unit.

I will say that sorry, I lost my
train of thought there for a second.

I started going two different directions.

But yeah, so the 40 acres will help me.

Expand.

And right now the home
farm is pretty maxed out.

I've got 31 head cattle
of various ages and sizes.

Plus we're lambing right now.

We're at like 20 sheep, so
imagine that on 20 acres,

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yes.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: that's.

definitely more than your county average
of one animal unit per acre, I've been

really pushing the limits of the home farm
and now we've exceeded it, but I haven't

downsized because I know that property
is just around the corner, We're almost

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, right.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: If I were to go
out and sell off a bunch to try to stay at

capacity, then I'd be cutting myself short
right when I'm about to expand, so I'm

trying to hold on to everybody
until we make that move.

It's tough.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

But I think that's a good point.

If you were to sell out the way prices
are going right now, it'd cost so

much to bring more in or something.

It's great that you have that.

But I do think that's good.

You hold that together and
then you're able to utilize

that land as soon as you can.

And it's so close, so I know you're
eager to get that going so you can.

Now, I believe you were direct
marketing beef and lamb before.

Have you continued down that path?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah.

It was more so on the
beef and poultry side.

Lamb was in the radar,
but not quite there yet.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, okay.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: now my
flock is getting to the point where

I could start looking at some lamb

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, okay.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: I might go
more the breeder route with the sheep.

I haven't drummed up quite the market for
lamb like I do with the beef products yet.

Beef

I'll still offer poultry.

We'll still offer lamb might be
more so on the breeder stock side.

And I did actually bring in a second
group of sheep over at that new property.

And I got into a really
nasty Parasite issue.

And I lost a bunch of them.

And this is a debate and some people
will love me for this stance and

some people will hate it, but like
we're a very hands off management.

At Mac farms.

And so I don't use any products as far
as worms or anything like that goes.

Like I want an animal that's
going to do it on their own.

So, you see that parasite
issue evolving and you try to

position them as best you can.

But at the same time, I want
to see who pulls through that.

And then go with those genetics.

So it definitely whittled down the flock.

Like I said, some people are going to

hate that answer.

They're going to, They're going to eat me

alive, but other people would say that's
natural selection doing its thing.

So right now i've got a couple ewes
from that group that are left and i'm

And I want to observe them over the
next year and a half and see how they

do but that was going to be my big
Sheep expansion then I got cut out at

the knees there with the parasite load.

Yeah, so I started to expand
in that direction then had

to press pause for a minute

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Those
parasites can really be an issue.

We really struggled with parasites
this year, and we have not

struggled with them in the past.

Occasionally we might have something,
but our weaned lambs this year, I

put them in a paddock that will hold
them, and I grazed it too short.

I knew I did.

and then we, it was wetter in late
summer than it's been for a few

years and we had a wreck there.

And those things, if you're going
to doctor them, which so what

we try and do, we try and doctor
them, but then they leave the farm.

So we doctor them, get them
wound, and they're gone.

Because we do not want those
genetics, but the, you have to

be very proactive about that.

One that you're like, oh,
I better check that one.

You better go check it right now.

Or, it may be dead later and
that sometimes is a problem with

all the irons in the fire too.

I get that and that's a tough thing.

With your highlands you've got
those so you're able to graze

them before, after, or with.

Are you grazing them all together now?

Granted the sheep you were talking
about was on the other property, but

your home flock, are you grazing those
as a flerd, as Greg Judy likes to

call it, or are they still separated?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026:
Yeah, we are together.

Now.

We were separate there at the time
we recorded that initial podcast.

That was another thing that
made me just tilt my head and

say, wow I barely remember that.

But yeah the cattle and the
sheep all move together now.

And that really got started it might have
been that following winter where we were

bell grazing just outside the barnyard.

And that was the high dry spot
and I needed to hold them up there

for just a little bit longer.

And so I forced everybody into the
same area and put up electric netting

to really keep the containment so that
the sheep weren't sneaking out on me.

And it was during that time of
bill grazing side by side, I think

they both learned that they could
tolerate each other and there's no big

issue.

The sheep still like to go try to find
their own corners of the paddock but

otherwise they, they move with the cattle,
they lamb in with the cattle without any

issues, and we move all together as one,
and that just makes things so much easier.

You're minimizing how much fencing
you're setting up, how much water you're

moving around, and it's just really
the way to go in my context, somebody

else has a different context, that's

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yeah.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: I really
enjoy having them together.

It just makes things easier and it's a lot
cooler, and you get to see those species

interacting together every now and
then I'll come out and there's a cow

laying down and there's two lambs
playing push around on top of it,

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yes.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: just funny stuff
like that you wouldn't otherwise see.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: I started a
experiment last November, I took some

newly weaned lambs, ewe lambs, and I say
newly weaned, they were born in March,

or in May, sorry, they were born in May.

We don't wean our ewe lambs, so they,
so when this opportunity came up,

what happened was I weaned some heifer
calves, I didn't plan on weaning at

the time, and I thought, I've got
these heifer calves weaned, I'm going

to pull some of those ewe lambs in.

And that's weaning for them, a stressful
time, with the goal of them bonding.

And I've read a paper, I don't even know
where I read it, but I read it about,

for 8 weeks, 12 weeks, you hold them
in a small pen, they bond together.

and then you can manage those as a group
and those sheep will stay with those

cattle and they provide predator control
or more done that and I moved them up

on one of the properties I had them in
there and then winter got, we got some bad

weather so I changed where I was feeding
them and moved them all to another spot.

They didn't bond very good.

Now, I say that, they ended up a
half mile away from where they were,

and luckily it was on my dad's land.

I got them back in, but they, now they're
staying where they're supposed to be right

now, but I was optimistic I was going
to get a better bonding there, and I do

think they are bonding a little bit more
now as I go out and unroll hay, Cows come

over and eat, and sheep come over and
eat, and I think that makes a difference.

I had some goats in that pen as well.

And the goats totally don't care
about what anybody else is doing.

They are, in fact, I'm not
moving them or anything.

I have them, they're in some woods where
I rotated them all through last year.

And they are hanging out there till I
start forcing them to do something else.

And they'll come over.

And grab a bite of hay if I
feed close enough to the woods.

Otherwise, they don't even come visit me.

Which is, I don't know.

I'm hoping this year to get
them all within a couple strands

of polywire, see how it goes.

Are you using polywire or
netting to move your flird?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah, with
the combined group there at the

home farm, it's all braided twine.

And I'll jump into that in just a second.

On the other property, the newer
property, it's all electric netting, just

because it's a little bit more remote.

I don't see it out the kitchen
window, like I do the other

ones.

So I'm taking a little bit more
precautions over there, trying to keep

them out of the neighbors and stuff.

They've done well in the electric netting.

I haven't had any predator issues.

I just had somebody messaged me today.

They're, asking about sheep.

They're like, do you have dogs?

What do you do to keep predators away?

And I'm like, I don't know if I'm lucky.

I don't know if it's the electric netting.

I haven't had any issues over
there, the home farm they're in

with the cattle and there's enough
human activity night and day that.

Predators don't really come in there.

At the home farm, I haven't gotten
the sheep down to just like a single

wire, like I would with the cattle,

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh,

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: but honestly
it's, irrelevant for me because I've

started planting trees to create
some silvopasture effect on all of

my normal paddock divisions that
I know I'm coming back to, and I

really want to protect those trees
while they're getting established.

So I've put up like a semi
permanent fence, but it's all

with fiberglass posts and braided
electric twine and four strands.

And when

that's hot, the

sheep don't mess with it.

The cattle could really care less
because, one strand's enough for them.

But A lot of my routine now has revolved
around four strands just because I

want to make sure that they don't touch
those trees while they're growing.

And I do, I use the small Kiwi
tech reels, like you'll see them

in my Instagram videos sometimes.

And when I'm doing small acreage,
it's very tight paddocks, like

small space, heavy impact.

So I'm never unrolling more than
200 feet of twine at a time.

I could see where that would be
annoying for somebody else, but for

me, I can string four strands super
quick and be done because we're

doing very high concentrated areas.

And with high con you would know this too.

It's when you're putting higher
pressure or greater area demands on.

Animals, like you better make sure
the fencing is up to the task.

If you choose too small of an area,

there's not enough to eat.

They're pushing and shoving, somebody's
going to go through the fence eventually.

So that's the other reason I'm doing
like maximum security right now is

because I'm trying to protect the trees,
but also I'm pushing the limits of how

small our paddock can be at this point

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: yeah.

Yeah.

And with your trees, did you, I know
Austin that was on the podcast 15

talking about silvopasture, he had
some tree protectors that you planted

a tree and they grew up through.

Did you use any kind of tree protector or
do you just have them planted out there?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah, Austin
has a great silvopasture business.

If anybody, I would encourage you to
go back and listen to that episode.

It's a good one.

Austin has a business
that revolves around that.

It's called Trees for Grazers, and it's
all about establishing trees within

working pastures, which can be a task, but
they've made a pretty good formula for it.

And yeah, they like to use the
tree tubes or tree protectors.

He did hook me up with about 50 of
them and I used them on some of the

trees that were taken off the best.

I really wanted to let
them keep going, so I

put those tubes around them.

And those are good.

Those are good.

I would encourage everybody because
that protects them from livestock.

It also creates like a little
mini greenhouse effect for

them which can be helpful.

I've also done a few
things here and there.

If I have a, like the one paddock,
I have this little ash tree

that's just popping up on its own.

It's a volunteer tree out
in the middle of a paddock.

So I've got my two rows.

Of trees fenced off

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yeah.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: And
then I got this lone tree that

I would really like to keep.

So I've actually used scraps of
woven wire just to make a cage.

And I hold that

cage up off the ground with fiberglass
posts so that it's insulated.

It's not contacting the ground.

And then I'll just run one single
strand of polywire electric braid

around that thing to electrify the cage.

That way they don't rub on it.

Cattle love to rub my Highland cows,
especially with their horns and

their shaggy hair, they
really love to rub.

So it's not even always them munching.

I'm more concerned about the
sheep munching on my trees.

But the cattle rubbing on them.

So if I can

eliminate both of those
things, I'm doing good.

I have been doing some experimenting too
with no tree protectors, just fencing

off, if you can picture this, so like a
paddock is got two lanes, two, two edges

to it, but then I'm actually fencing
off another buffer outside that paddock.

So maybe it's like a two foot width.

Of no man's land in between paddocks
where I've been planting trees, but

also I've just been letting what's
coming up just come up like, whether

it's, honeysuckle or whatever.

And again, I have my 4 strands
of electric on both sides of

that to keep them out of there.

And I've also found that's where
a lot of the wild pollinator

species want to pop up.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: yes.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026:
that's my hope there.

It can be my tree nursery in these rows.

And then also it can be promoting
pollinator plants that don't get trampled

and disturbed all the time by livestock.

So I'm really trying to create
the pollinator and hedge effect

in between my paddocks to hold

as much wildlife biodiversity as possible.

On a small scale.

I'm having fun with it.

It's a cool experiment.

I'm excited to see where it
goes here in the next 10 years.

See what comes of it.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: I love the
idea of a hedge fence, of something.

I see those pastoral pictures of
England or Scotland with their

hedgerows, and I think, wouldn't it
be cool to do something like that?

And I haven't yet.

Maybe someday I'll get to it.

But that'll be interesting to
see how that develops for you.

Now, with your tree species,
you went in and planted some.

What tree species did you go with and why?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: I
did a lot of black locust.

It's a nitrogen fixing tree.

They're pretty tough when
it comes to starting off.

There's not a whole lot that disrupts
black locust in our area, especially

like something that was stripped.

And then left go to regrow a lot of times.

You'll see black locust popping
up there just because it is.

It's 1 of

those 1st species.

That's yeah, we're going
to take this back over.

And it's really high in tannins.

It's a good natural
parasite fodder for animals.

So I'm looking forward

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yes.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: some black
locusts, especially to the sheep.

And so I did a lot of black locusts.

Those are doing well.

Those are probably the tallest
and best trees I have right now.

I've also done hybrid
poplars and hybrid willows.

They're going to be
very quick establishing.

You can, they throw a nice shade.

You can also use them for fodder.

They might not be as long lived as some
of the other species you might plant.

But if you keep pruning them either by
coppicing or pollarding, cutting them

down at the base or cutting them above
browse height and letting them re sprout,

that can really extend their life.

I also have a lot of wet bottomland,
wet soils and wet bottomlands.

I have some swampy areas.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yes.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: And some of those
areas, honestly, I'm not even looking to

graze as much in the future, but use that
spot for wet nursery for things like black

willow and sycamore and maybe some like
red osier dogwood and arrowwood and things

that I already have growing on the farm.

Maybe take some live steaks,
stick them in there, and I can

start propagating my own stuff,

To stick elsewhere.

And anytime I have a tree that comes down
that's a nut bearing tree, I gather up

all those nuts and I go chuck them in
those hedgerows in between my paddocks

just to even if 2 percent of them grew
into a tree, that would be amazing.

Yeah, last year we did that.

My, my wife and I, there was a shag,
shag bark hickory that came down and

it was loaded and we gathered them
all up and then we just ran around the

farm, just chucking them everywhere,

trying to find places where they would
have a head start to start growing before

the animals started messing with them.

I've also been doing
elderberries, sticking elderberry

live stakes in those rows

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, okay.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Really
anything, I'm not opposed to it.

I think the more diversity you
have, the more resilient you are.

This year I'm hoping to incorporate
more fruit trees for human

use, and I'd like to dabble with
pawpaws because pawpaws are like the

most tropical kind of fruit that we
can grow in this northern climate.

They're a unique tree, a unique
fruit, and I would like to,

I'd like to get into that.

And I'm saying that having

never even eaten a pawpaw.

I'm just going on faith on that one,
but you know, diversity is the key.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Even if
you get those growing and you don't

eat them, something else will.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Absolutely.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024:
exciting to see how that

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: tough spot, yep.

And if you get in a tough spot, you
can always go hack some of those

branches, feed the leaves to the cows.

You can

go collect those fruits, dump
them in, it just makes you all

the more resilient and you have so
many more options when you have.

Diversity and a lot of life
just popping out of your land.

It's the best case scenario.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yes.

Yeah.

One more statement about your cattle.

We moved away from your cattle and talked
about your trees this little bit, but

one more statement about your cattle
before we, we adjust just a little bit.

You take wonderful pictures on Instagram.

I see some of those pictures and I'm like,
This should be a canvas you can order.

Um, I think your bull drinking out of a
watering trough and some other pitchers.

I'm always excited to see what you post
Eli because I think you do a good job,

but then some of those pictures are
just excellent quality and I haven't

showed them to my wife because she'd be
like, yeah, I want a picture of that.

Or my daughter would.

Any plans to monetize that?

Because that may be a
revenue stream for you.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, it's funny.

A lot of people comment on that.

I make no claims to be a photographer.

I'm not a photographer.

I have a smartphone with a decent
camera and occasionally I find myself

in the right place at the right time.

And I like those moments of the
farm and you capture them and

other people can appreciate the farm
too, even though they're not there and

we just had conversations this week
of getting a website going more so to

offer the services like consulting.

And things like that.

And the coaching aspect of what we do.

But it's also in discussions that we could
do some prints of some of those photos

so that people could have those unique
pieces from the farm and put them in

their house or whatever they want to do.

And just enjoy them as much as we do,
because that's, we get to see that

stuff every day, and that's quite the
blessing, and if we can pass that on

to some folks, and if we can, like you
said, monetize that a little bit for

ourselves, that'd be a little bit extra
of a trickle coming into the bucket.

Yeah.

We would like to do that.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: I know
for my parents, and I'm even less

of a photographer or claim to
be one than you claim to be one.

I'm terrible.

But I have taken a few pictures that
I printed off for my parents on canvas

for them to hang in their house of
our own cattle, which is really.

Really nice just as an individual rather
than having who knows what up there.

I've got pictures of our own
animals and I really like that.

And that's just a side
bonus that we get to do.

One thing you mentioned there was
about consulting and helping with that.

When we talked to you three
and a half years ago, you were

starting on your holistic journey.

I don't remember exactly where
you were in it, but you were

fairly early in that journey.

Can you tell us about that journey,
how it's gone, and what you did?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah, absolutely.

Early on in this whole grazing journey,
I knew I wanted to try to do it naturally

and stick within those guidelines.

And I wanted to, manage in a way that
I wasn't cutting corners and I could be

sure that I was making the right decisions
in a way that was going to affect the

landscape positively and not negatively.

And, these are things I want to pass
on to next generations, like planting

trees, that's a generational thing.

These aren't just decisions that

we make on a daily basis on a whim.

Like we need to have some kind of
framework for making these decisions.

I came across holistic management
through the Savory Institute.

And that's basically, in a nutshell,
holistic management is a decision

making framework to help you deal with
the complexity of natural systems.

And it has a lot to do with grazing and
introducing animal into the landscape.

And so I started digging into
this and I was going through

savory institutes resources.

I read their book.

I did some of the online courses
that really break it down and

they start talking about, you
Water cycle and mineral cycle and

community dynamics and diversity.

Like we're talking about and all those
things that play into how you look at an

ecosystem, whether it's your backyard or
a 20 acre farm or a thousand acre ranch,

like there are ecosystem ecosystems and
there's little micro ecosystems and.

All of these variables
are playing into that.

And when we're managing, we're out
there doing our thing, making decisions

about how we do something versus doing
it this way, we're doing and seeing

results that maybe we intended for, but
probably also causing results that we

didn't intend for worse or for better.

And so holistic management is really, is

Why is what I jumped into because I
wanted to know that as I'm managing

as I'm making decisions moving
forward I can also keep an eye on the

unintended things so that I'm not Doing
anything detrimental to the landscape.

I want to make this landscape abundant.

I want to

make it last I don't
want to detract from it.

I really want to Put myself into it.

I don't want to take from
the landscape for me.

I'd really like to put myself
into the landscape and holistic

management allowed me to do that.

The journey through that, like I said,
read the book, did the online courses,

and then I became an AP and accredited
professional through Savory Institute.

And I worked with my mentor, Daniel
Griffith down in down in Virginia.

They run Timshel Wildland.

He's a great guy.

He has a lot of philosophy around
the topics of grazing and wildlife

and wild systems and holistic
management and everything in between.

He's a really interesting guy.

He's wrote some books.

He was on your podcast.

Daniel has a

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Yeah, Episode
17, I just looked that up to remember.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: But yeah,
Daniel is a wealth of knowledge and

just a lot of different perspectives
that you can gain from him and

listening to what he has to say.

He asked questions that
nobody else is willing to ask.

And and then even dabbles in answering
them, which is sometimes, sometimes

you have people that like to ask
questions, but they don't really

want to throw out their answer.

And

he.

He does both sometimes, which is good.

So I leaned heavily on him and he
brought me through my savory journey.

And now I'm out the other side as an
accredited professional where I can teach

the principles of holistic management.

I can help people.

Hopefully I can help people better
understand their own landscape and

understand their own context for

managing that landscape in a way that
creates the quality of life that they

want to see that is hand in hand with the
landscape that they're trying to create.

Holistic management is a
beautiful thing that helps us.

Manage the complexity
that's in front of us.

When we look at a natural landscape,

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Now, when
you Consider holistic management.

You've got the Savory Institute
and you've got, is it Holistic

Management International?

And I'm not sure if you can speak to it.

What's the difference between the two?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: I
haven't dabbled in the other.

I've only really been within the
realms of the Savory Institute.

So I probably shouldn't
say, because I would just be

guessing and lying to somebody.

I don't know the difference between,
but I know Allen Savory has been

working in the holistic management
space for decades and decades.

This is not.

New stuff, like back in the sixties,

people were getting excited about this,
of course, some of the literature has

been revised and now we have different
names for some of those concepts and.

and.

things like that.

But the idea of viewing things
holistically hasn't changed.

It's, when we look at our world, there's
nothing we can point at and single it out

and say, it's not attached to something
else, or it doesn't affect something else.

Even within your own family,
like everything in life is.

And we really see that when we

look at, when we look at nature, it's
like pulling on the cobweb and one

strand of the cobweb and then you see
the whole thing shudder in the sunshine.

That's how connected and
integrated everything is.

Those are the principles that
they've been working with for

decades at the Savory Institute.

So quite acquainted in there.

They're the pros and that's why I wanted
to get with them because they know what

they're talking about when it comes
to holism and holistic management.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yeah.

And I don't know the
difference between the two.

I've thought I'd need to check into
either or because I've read some of

the Holistic Management I can't even
think the full title of the book,

but the Holistic Management book.

As you think about someone who's
just saying, Oh, I should find

out more information about this.

Where would you suggest them go

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah, I
would send them to Savory website.

They have a map laid out of and a
list of all the APs at least, but

then they also have a map of the hubs.

Hubs are a a regional center
for holistic management.

And some of those training courses
like Daniel would be a hub down in

Virginia with Robinia Institute.

That's their hub name.

So a lot of that stuff is regional.

Sometimes there's gaps between regions,
but some of those hub leaders are willing

to reach across those gaps and get people
the training and education that they need.

So save your website would be good.

Otherwise most of us are out there
floating around on Instagram, if

you know what you're looking for.

Or at least in the ballpark, we're
all posting about what we're doing.

And we're pretty active on social media
and I forgot to mention to the ecological

monitoring cow, the EOV is another

aspect.

I don't know if you want to
talk about that now or later

or whatever you want to do.

I'll leave that to you to decide

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: we can go
ahead and go into that if you're

finished with about the hubs and
stuff We can talk about the EOV.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: sure.

EOV is a service that a lot of hubs offer,
not all hubs, but a lot of hubs offer EOV,

which is ecological outcome verification.

Which is the whole data
collecting, scientific,

technical side of regeneration.

We all like to make claims
in our Instagram posts about,

we're a regenerative farm, we
do this, that, and the other.

But how do you really know?

Like, How do you know
if you're regenerating?

How do you know if you're
moving forward on the landscape?

There might be things you're
looking at that tell you that.

There might be some other things
that you're not paying attention

to that tell a different story.

So EOV is a service where we can
roll out onto a farm, onto a ranch.

We can do some short term monitoring.

We can do some long term monitoring.

Really in depth stuff where you're
like on your hands and knees, nose

to the grass, like pulling grasses
apart, looking for certain things

everything from diversity to.

Water cycle, to water infiltration,
to species identification, wildlife,

and bugs, and insects, and manure
decomposition, and all these things.

All the complexity has
a place on the rubric.

We use a rubric, we use a scorecard
that is customized to an ecoregion.

It's not just across the board,
United States that would be

wrong.

That would do nobody any good.

It's all based on ecoregion.

To where we can score your farm
accurately based on your eco region

and give you feedback on that.

So you can actually get a score on.

Your mineral cycle oh man, we're not
breaking down our organic matter.

What's up with that?

And then we can have conversations
about how we can go about those things.

So EOV is a service that gives you all
that information, just spit out at you.

And you can pinpoint, this is where
we're at on the scale of regeneration.

And from year to year, we monitor that and
you can say, okay, we're moving forward.

We're moving forward.

Or.

You know what?

I was really lazy in my management
last year and it shows in the score.

It's it's kind of accountability.

How do you know you're regenerating
if you don't ever ask the question,

if you don't ever collect the data?

You won't.

We're all just making claims and if
you want to make those claims then

we should have a way to measure that.

So it is the measuring
tape for regeneration.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Is there
a certain time of year that you

go in and do the EOV or can it be
done year round and The what you

find is adjusted for the season.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: So we like
to do it during the growing season.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh,

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: That can
be any time during the grazing

season or the growing season.

And I would say when you come out for the
base year, you're what do you call it?

Baseline.

You're setting up your baseline year.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh,

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Whatever time
of year you're out there, you should

probably come back the same time.

The next year and the year after keep
everything as consistent as possible.

During the growing season, that's
great for the identification part

because things are in full expression.

Sometimes we get somewhere and the
paddock or the pastures that we're

trying to monitor have just been grazed
and everything's just like a green stub

and you're like, okay, identification
is going to be really tricky here.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Yeah

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: you
just have to work with that.

Or you make a note like, Hey,
this paddock was just grazed.

So keep that in mind with the scores.

Cause maybe there's
not as much to look at.

And the funny thing, Cal, is when
I'm out and about in my own paddock

or I'm visiting a farm, once you've
done EOV, cause it is a lot of work.

Like it's pretty labor intensive.

You're sweating, You're

covered in bugs.

Like it's a good time,
but it's a bad time.

You know what I mean?

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: right.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: And when you're
out there and you roll onto a farm that

has like a lush, diverse paddock that you
have to monitor, you're almost Oh, okay.

This is going to

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh,

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026:
This is going to be a minute,

and then sometimes you roll onto a
farm where it's like pretty sparse

and it's hurting and you're like,
okay, yeah, we can knock this out.

And now here we go, and once you
have a gauge for that and the work

that you're doing that's how I test
myself as I'm walking around my farm.

Like, all right, let's
look at this paddock.

Would this paddock difficult to do EOV on?

Would it be a pain in the

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yeah.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Or
could I knock this out quickly?

And for me, sometimes that's all the
more of a question I need to ask.

You'd be like, yeah, this
paddock could use some work.

Cause I think I could make a
long term site here and mark

all the data pretty quickly.

Or other paddocks where I'm like,
Ooh, I don't want to do EOVO here.

Cause this would take forever.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Yeah.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: and so when
you're engrossed in that data collection,

it's funny to just look around and you
get your vision for those kinds of things.

And you can look around and say, yeah
this paddock just by the feel of it

is doing pretty good or the contrary,
but it's just one of those things.

The more you get tuned into it, the
more you can see it everywhere you go.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yeah.

I think having a rubric and
qualifying that what you're seeing

out there can be really beneficial.

The other aspect you
mentioned was year after year.

You can see.

What kind of trend you're going, what
kind, where you're headed, I think those

points in time, it's so important we take
a time, take time to go back and look.

For example, your podcast from
three and a half years ago.

Granted, I, I listened to it,
actually I read the transcript.

I read your portion so I knew
where it went, but then I'm looking

at my portion thinking, Oh dear.

And the podcast has really evolved
and it's really nice to go back and

see that and say, Oh, we have evolved.

Maybe part of the time I do
have a coherent sentence.

So it's good to go back and see
that you've got some growth.

So that EOV, doing it over time, I
could see a lot of benefit from that.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Absolutely.

Even like your podcast example, I
listened back to it as well, just to know

where we left off and I was oh, man I
really didn't know anything back then.

I feel like I don't know anything now.

So I really didn't know what I was doing

back then.

Yeah.

So we need a report card every now
and then, and we need to know if

we're moving the dial on that stuff.

It's very important to keep checking
up on ourselves and a lot of people,

I think this applies through multiple
layers of life, but sometimes people are

hesitant to start monitoring, whether
it's EOV or theirself or their progress,

because they feel like that initial
report card is not going to be good.

And we always tell people like, Hey,
baseline year is a great year to suck.

If I could say it bluntly,

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh yeah,

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: because.

then guess what?

Next year's scores are going
to be all that much better.

Don't wait to get the landscape of
your farm, the landscape of your

mind, the landscape of your skills,
your landscape of your career.

Don't wait to get all
the pieces in place now.

Don't, before you start

electing that data, before you
start comparing yourself and giving

yourself progress reports, like just
start now, just create a baseline.

It doesn't matter how bad it is.

Like we're only going to.

We're only going to improve
unless you're not managing well.

Maybe we move backwards, but
yeah, don't be afraid to start.

Cause that's no reason to hold back.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: But if you do
move backwards, you've got some data

there that you can work off of and
figure out what you should be doing.

Just this podcast so many times in Advice
to New Farmers, we talk about this.

You've got to get started.

You've got to take that
first step to get anywhere.

I started this podcast and I'm not saying
I know how to do anything now, But I

really didn't know how to do it then.

And, but if I'd waited till I was ready.

I'd probably still be waiting.

I'd probably still be
trying to figure it out.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah,

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: There's a lot of
benefit to reading, to resources, getting,

gathering all this knowledge, but we don't
want to get into that analysis paralysis,

stealing a real estate term where we're so
knowledgeable and trying to figure it out,

but we're afraid to take that first step.

The real learning occurs
after you get started.

And that would, I would render a guess.

That's.

The EOV, once you get started, that's
going to be so much more beneficial

for you and you're going to learn
so much than if you're trying to

learn everything ahead of time and
try and get everything in place.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: absolutely.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: All
that to say, get started.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Yeah.

Get started.

I have quite a few areas in my
life, even this year, where I'm

like, dude, just start, like you'll
keep getting stuck in preparation.

Just get started.

Just start pushing the cart.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh yeah,

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: And that first
step is oftentimes the hardest, but if you

can push through that momentum takes over.

Yeah.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: right I
think, I went to the Noble Research

Institute's Essentials of Regenerative
Grazing, and one thing they said that

I thought was really good, That kind
of relates to this getting started.

If we get started, for grazing,
we're doing daily moves, for

example, or, adaptive you're doing
moves based upon what you need.

But if you think about a daily move
and you move them and you've got

your animals in there too tight and
they're, you come back later and

they're out of grass, guess what?

Change it next time.

You've got that feedback,
give them a bigger area.

And conversely, if they're, if you're
like, Oh, they didn't graze this like I

thought they should have, Reflect upon it.

Reflection is such an important part.

And then tighten that
rotation up just a little bit.

Most of the time that first
step is not gonna hurt anything.

We just gotta take it.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026:
Yeah, that's very true.

And I think oftentimes we elevate
our position as managers, whether

of landscape or livestock.

Really, I like to let my
animals do the teaching.

I'm the student we're observing,
we're seeing what's going on.

I like that.

I like to let them do the work too.

Don't get me wrong.

They're the teachers and the workers.

I'm the student but just even recently,
we're winter time here in Pennsylvania.

We're maxing out the home farm.

So we are bell grazing, we're feeding hay.

And I just got bored with
how we were doing it.

I wanted to switch it up.

I wanted to try some stuff.

And so we've done a couple of different
methods and patterns and guess what?

You learn things when that happens.

And

I was even thinking of
this comment earlier and

Daniel taught me this phrase
and it's a holistic management

theme where disturbance
creates emergence of some kind.

So whether this is the soil
surface, we disturb it to a certain

depth and it emerges somehow.

And we determine, good, bad
or indifferent or whatever.

The same with our routines
and our schedules.

If you create a disturbance, if you
shake things up, that allows room

for different results to happen.

So here I am, I'm bale grazing.

I'm bored with how we always do it.

I'm like, we're going to try something
else, and it's been really fun.

It's been really fun just to let the cows
teach me things like I was doing a really

tight paddock the other day and I'm doing
kind of a, I've never done this before.

Usually I roll out all the hay for
the paddock and they have that hay

until we hit that mark where, I said,
okay, the hay should be spent by

now and we move on to the next one.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh,

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: Right now we're
using about one round bale per day.

So we're on a really tight
paddock and I'm doing a, I,

people call it different things.

I call it a winter windrow where
I unroll the hay and then I run a

single strand of electric over top of
it and they eat from underneath it.

Because we're into some wet weather here.

And if I roll out all the hay in
the paddock, they end up trampling a

large portion, which I'm fine with.

I'm

okay with

that.

When it's wet, we get a lot of
dimpling and I was trying to mix it up.

And so this way, they really flatten
and compact the area that they're

standing on for the day because
they're all standing in this row.

And they're leaving the hay

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yes.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: And the next
day, that's the row they're all standing

on and they're working it in evenly.

So instead of all these random
craters, we're actually getting

a pretty nicely laid hay

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, interesting.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: And.

Come this growing season.

I'll tell you if that was good or
bad, we'll find out but coming out and

the same three cows are like over the
fence eating hay from the other side

and This is my pride in the situation.

I'm like, ah Those darn three
cows, like those are the

troublemakers, like what's going on.

And I kept putting them back in and, after
three days, it's the same characters.

And I'm like, all right, what's going on.

And then I was like, yeah, you dummy.

Like those cows are trying to tell you
something and you're not listening.

Cause you're taking
yourself too seriously.

Those three cows, weren't
the troublemakers.

Those three cows are at the bottom of
the totem pole getting pushed around

to the point where they go through

or under or over the wire, just because
everybody else is bossing them around.

And so then.

Okay, you made an observation.

You learned something because you

disturbed your original rhythm.

Now there's an emergence
for a learning opportunity.

And I probably should have pieced that
together on day one, but I didn't,

I was just being dumb about it.

So then I'm able to collect
data on this situation.

I said, okay, let's look at
the length of this paddock.

This paddock is 25 paces.

So it's roughly, 75 feet for my cattle.

31 head.

That's not enough room.

And then that led me to,
okay let's measure the horns

on some of these Highlands.

The average was like 40 inches, which I
didn't realize I would have guessed like

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, yeah.

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026: We're
closing in on four feet of horns.

That takes up a lot of space when

you're side by side.

So I'm like, okay, I
switched up my routine.

A learning opportunity emerged.

I observed it, I collected data, and
now I can go back to the drawing board

and we can have some more fun with this.

And that's the beauty, it's the beauty,
it's the fun, it's the enjoyment

of grazing and doing what we do.

I really love it.

But that's just an example
that I've had recently of,

Learning and collecting the data

and starting over and mixing things up.

That's okay.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Yeah,
and that's a wonderful observation

you made with that, and then
you adjusted your practice, so.

Maybe those cows aren't
getting bullied into the next

paddock, so it works out good.

Eli, it's about the time, and
I didn't warn you earlier.

Of course, this is our second try at
it, so maybe you did get a warning.

But, you have to answer
the Famous Four questions.

I know you answered them before, but
let's see where you've gone with that now.

But before we get there, is there
anything else you'd like to add before

we transition to the Famous Four?

eli_1_02-09-2024_171026:
Oh I don't know, Cal.

I think we're okay.

I think we can go to the famous four.

Last time I got ahead of myself.

So I'll wait to the questions.

cal_1_02-09-2024_161024: Oh, okay.

There we go.

Okay.

Famous four questions.