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The environment around us is a swirling vortex of chaos, but you can navigate it when you have an anchor that can keep you steady. Each episode, Liz Herl dives into data driven strategies and real world tactics with Dr. Tim Caldwell to help you become more grounded and centered in a world that is constantly shifting and changing. Learn to effectively navigate family strife, career challenges and handle the anxiety of the unknown that the news is constantly bombarding us with. Liz is a Licensed Clinical Marriage and Family Therapist and Dr. Caldwell is a retired primary care physician and personal trainer. You can lean on their decades of experience to find stability and peace without having to control circumstances or people around you. You can be anchored in chaos.
AIC_Ep02_Full
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[00:00:00]
Liz Herl: ~Doing this again. Yes. I like that. I think that that's the best. Just for back, Anchored in Chaos. Yeah. I like that. Thanks for having me back. Always. Yes. My reoccurring co ~
Tim Caldwell: ~host. Thank you. Thank you. Introduce yourself. I know, ~
Liz Herl: ~don't they know ~
Tim Caldwell: ~I know, ~
Liz Herl: ~don't they know ~
Tim Caldwell: ~who I am? No, you better, you better just get in the habit of ~
Liz Herl: ~doing that.~
~Liz Hurl, a licensed clinical marriage and family therapist, and oh my goodness, I hope he can hear me. I apologize. Yeah, do it again. Okay, Okay,~ Liz Herl, Licensed Clinical Emergency Family Therapist. Yeah. I have a private practice and then I decided to do a podcast.
Tim Caldwell: That's right. Yeah. I'm a chiropractor by profession.
~Uh,~ but I'm also the owner and operator of a gym, a business called Genuine Effort, LLC. Liz and I have collaborated now [00:01:00] for eight months. Um. Our collaboration now has led us to this podcast, and we're going to talk about some things that we get to share some expertise in.~ Right. ~I have almost 40 years in mind, and Liz is going on eight, nine years now?
Liz Herl: Almost, inching up towards a decade in private practice. In private practice, yeah. In social services, in psychology itself. If I say the number, then it seems a bit old, but yes, over 20 years, yes. I mean, not as old as you, of course, but older. Oh, right.
Tim Caldwell: Oh, right. I don't see how this is going to go. Anyway, what are we gonna, what are we talking about?
Liz Herl: Before we get to that, I think it's important to talk about that I soon will be a co host on your podcast. Genuine Effort. ~Uh, ~yeah. Yeah. It's gonna happen. All things
Tim Caldwell: happen. Or excuse me, all things planned. We'll have Liz and I in collaboration again on my side of the house with Genuine Effort LLC. We'll have
my own podcast, and this will be my co [00:02:00] host and my very, very, very much frequent, guest. The opportunity to speak about those things that I believe are important, not just within training, but, ~uh,~ I used to believe I had valuable information, but how much could I put out? But when we started actually talking, it's almost limitless because as much as I believe in the philosophies and the paradigms of people who are in training.
I now have some expertise to bounce some things off because I do believe everything below the neck is anatomy, physiology,~ uh,~ chemistry, kinesiology, neurology, but now everything above the shoulders is psychology, psychiatry, all of those things that make,~ uh,~ tie into how the body and mind work together.
Liz Herl: Should, should, should, should. Yeah, should. That's the key word there, should.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, so, so some of the things that we talk about, especially on your side of the house, are going to be those things that are more [00:03:00] on the above the shoulders. What we're, what we're doing to get through life and to deal with different things.
Yeah, I always appreciate you letting me sit in. I appreciate having you. Yeah, you're very great. I love it, I love it.
Liz Herl: Do you want to talk about acceptance? Yeah. It's kind of broad.
Tim Caldwell: It is broad.
Liz Herl: Narrow it down. What is self acceptance? So, do you know, I got this idea from, well, society, but in my practice and in what I see and in what I, as an individual, struggle in myself.
How do we... Become comfortable with ourselves and stop trying to fit into everybody else's boxes. And when do we know that we're not in anybody else's boxes? That's another thing. And I, I hear that and I have a deep compassion for individuals that are [00:04:00] suffering and looking for acceptance. What is, that's, what is self acceptance?
Where does that come from? Where do we learn about ourselves. Well, start with childhood. And those experiences through our parental systems as um,~ um, ~how they interacted with us, what they taught us about communication, love, acceptance not to sound redundant. And what's interesting, I guess one of my thoughts,~ um,~ is a new concept in, well, I would say in, ~um, ~psychotherapy is self care, self love, self care.
And that's a teetering, ~um,~ I would say thought process there, because if you're like too involved with yourself, or maybe you don't pay yourself any attention at all. So what's the balance, right? Right. Scales. That's a better way.
Tim Caldwell: Okay. So we go off one end. We go off the other. So, yeah, [00:05:00] all of this, you know, the fact that we get to speak about this stuff privately,~ um,~ and casually, ~um, ~you know, we spoke about AI on another.
On another topic, ~um, ~in a podcast, we talked about
positivity, body positivity. These things are all interrelated, right? And in my realm,
~ ~
Tim Caldwell: ~um, ~um, where people may stick me up for, can you help me make some changes or a betterment for where I am on the physical side? I can't, I can't without there being a commitment on the mental. I, mine is, mine is, ~uh, ~it's in vain to have a person show up, stand back, do three sets of 20, pat on the head, and release them into the world.
That does no good unless we have the opportunity to change the way they [00:06:00] think. When you mentioned acceptance as a topic, I thought, wow, that's, that's broad, but it's... It's very trendy. It's very topical. And it's actually very, very important because we, we struggle, everyone struggles with acceptance, right?
~Um,~ we all see, ~uh,~ Michael Jackson's song,~ um, ~The Man in the Mirror. Yeah. Yeah, it's... That's a good one. It's strange what we see in the mirror. Very. It's strange what we see in the mirror.
Liz Herl: I'll tell you. It's interesting that you would bring that up because I say this all the time in
sessions. The hardest thing that I can get individuals to do is hold up the mirror and say who's accountable, who's responsible for this.
~Um, ~because there's the notion that I'm not really, this was done to me, therefore these are my behaviors and my reactions. And it's okay because this is what happened. This is what transpired. It gives me out of jail [00:07:00] free kind of my behavior.
Tim Caldwell: This is the, the die was cast and I'm stuck in it.
Liz Herl: And getting to a point now,~ I,~ I understand that mentality because i can, if I go to generationally how you're, what you're upbringing, we are creatures of our own environment. And if that's what I taught, we only know what we know. Maya Angelou. You know, when you know better, do better. I have that in my office.
~Um,~ and the fact that,~ um,~ how do we. Well, how do we give ourself a break? But what I mean by that is when I see, I have,~ um,~ I'm very fortunate and humbled at the opportunity to sit in a room with an individual in such a place of despair and loss of self. Being able to be there with them and be present and say, now I'm right here, but you're the one that has to get [00:08:00] off your knees.
Yeah, and how do you discover getting off your knees, right? And I, I'm not, you know, I don't want to leave you alone here because there's,
Tim Caldwell: or even being, even being there where Get up. That's an option. They think they have to crawl around. ~You don't.~ You don't, right? What can we do? Can we change you in the environment?
Can we change the environment around you?
Liz Herl: It's the way you think about your environment, which goes into... ~Um,~ Um, the roles that, that kind of blends into the roles of social media and how it develops us into what we think we are.
Tim Caldwell: That is a, that is a deep, dark pool. When you, when you drag,~ um,~ social media into it, my gosh, the complications are endless.
~Um,~ it's one thing, it's one thing that society, say ~pre, ~[00:09:00] pre internet, let's say, pre 1980s, it's one thing that, that,~ uh,~ individual body image and self confidence were perhaps being tested. ~Um,~ I think some people would blame,~ um,~ weight, religion, sex, race, those may have been some topical things. But now, but now they're, it's everything.
It's, your hair's not the right color. You're, you know, I've seen more people, ~um, ~persecuted for being, having red hair. In the last 10 years, and maybe it's because we're all hyper connected and it's just flooding the stuff I guess, but really it's take bullying from the schoolyard to the worldwide net.
Right. And,~ uh, ~how do you get around that?
Liz Herl: Yeah. I, it's interesting that you say that because,~ um,~ I've had individuals tell me when [00:10:00] I got away from high school, I got, I thought I got away from this BS and now it just follows me wherever I go. So, and. People want to friend me or follow me or whatever it is.
It's like, I haven't talked to you in how long? Yeah. It's like, what is, I am a little, I am that person like, okay, we haven't spoken in this period of time. And I try and keep all my accounts very private. ~Um, ~and when someone kind of hunts me or sorts me out, I'm like, are you just like. Curious what's going on in my life, versus like, you haven't authentically been an integral part of my life in the last few years, I don't understand.
But what's interesting about that, so I have to shift gears there, is that when that does happen to some individuals, it's like, oh, they still care. They're still interested in what's going on for me, like this perceived ideas. ~Um, ~maybe,~ uh,~ I still matter at some level of acceptance, right? ~Um,~ maybe we can reconnect and I'm not against, you know, reconnecting with people.
I'm, I'm probably just a little pessimist there and then [00:11:00] I'm pretty private. So like, if you haven't been apart, where you've been, probably not necessary for you to be back. But anyways, I,~ I,~ I'm just saying for other people that. Other individuals that do, they, they want to be seen so much. Yeah. And~ I tell,~ I tell this story a lot.
Do you see you? Do you know who you are? Yeah. I mean,
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Well, there's, well, there's, that's the, um, that's the heart of the matter. Really? So ~back to, ~back to the social media thing. So young people today, in today's society,~ um, any,~ anybody up to the age of, let's say, 35. ~Um, ~they had a bit of a different world, right?
And,~ um,~ the luxury and exposure of social media, laptop computers, they weren't as available. Now, everybody is reduced to what did I call that? Creatures scratching at glass. ~Um,~ the very fact that we spend so much time [00:12:00] liking things. No, I don't just like it. I heart it. I love that. ~Um, ~I don't even know what that definition means, but I think it's interesting that we have people that are wounded.
You don't, right? I did. I posted something really good. I didn't get any likes. I mean, they're wounded by it
Liz Herl: severely. I mean, significantly. I see that and I hear that a lot. And that is, that's what I'm talking about. Self acceptance. You're seeking out validation in whatever is going on in your life, or this thing or that, and if someone doesn't give you a like or a comment or something, then it's all for not
yeah. And it's not. Yeah. It's not, it's, that's an amazing moment that you're not taking for self, you're giving it away, hoping someone will see the importance of you. Yeah,
Tim Caldwell: but, you know, and there's no buts to this stuff. [00:13:00] This is, it's all inclusive and every element ~has it, ~has an importance. Has some important, ~every,~ every element plays a part, but what ~I will,~ I will say that,~ um,~ how did we get to become so fragile that we need it, right?
And in the acceptance that we can't accept ourselves, the man in the mirror, but we rely so much on our, ~we,~ we evaluate ourselves by the way we think people evaluate us. We've turned over our own comfort to somebody else, and I did. Absolutely. Tell us about your, tell us about what, what was that series, Black Mirror?
Yes. Yeah. Tell us about that episode. Yeah.
Liz Herl: Nosedive. That's the name of the episode. That's the
Tim Caldwell: episode. Nosedive. But it's, it's. The premises. But it's a series called Black
Liz Herl: Mirror. I love all of Black Mirror's episodes. They have this. A Netflix. Yeah, it's a Netflix series. ~Um, ~I really enjoy all of their, most of their,~ um,~ episodes have this really,~ um,~ Psychological turn to it, which [00:14:00] is probably intriguing for me.
But yeah, kind of twilight zone stuff. Yeah, it's there. There's no stigma I wanna talk about. But then,~ um,~ there's another one in their most recent release,~ um,~ it's season six now, maybe of, uh, an AI that is making simulations inside of simulations and people can't just. They're trapped in what is reality versus what is fiction.
And I, when I was watching it with my son, I was like, ~this is,~ this is what's happening in it. And I seemed like a little bit of a crazy person, but I don't want to divert. But anyways, Black Mirror is a great, uh, series. Yeah. And Nosedive, I watched a few years ago. It was in season three. So it's been a minute.
I didn't realize it was that old. Yeah. You just told me. But yeah, it's pretty old. Oh, okay. It's two now. Keep telling. ~Um, ~but yeah, so, but it was that impactful. That's, I think about it all the time and I've actually asked clients to look at it. ~Uh, ~I want you to watch this [00:15:00] episode. I want you to tell me what you think.
Yeah. And they come back and I was like, oh my goodness, listen, I'm like, especially people that really thrive off of social media, which is a large population. Yeah. And are,
Tim Caldwell: ~are, ~are ages 20 and under for sure. 25 and under for sure. Thrive on
Liz Herl: it. No, that's, again, their identity. ~Um, ~I, again, I don't want to get too far off because I have a teenage daughter that struggles with, she finally just, ~uh,~ disconnected, deleted Instagram all together.
I was proud of her. Yeah. I was like, that's awesome. Yeah. Like do that. Jim, ~this is not, ~this is not your value. And that's being a little bit of a mama bear and then occupational hazard. ~Um, ~so Nose Dive is,~ um,~ the premises, and I know you watched a clip of it because I wanted to go over it with you, is,~ uh,~ this,~ um,~ young woman that is pretty much trying to, in a way, be accepted by everyone and everything around her.
And it's all tallied by her score of how she gets, [00:16:00] in our world, like, likes or follows or whatever,
Tim Caldwell: cards or whatever you want to so to lay this out, if people don't get a chance to see this. In this world,~ uh,~ everybody's carrying their digital device, and when you encounter somebody, a pop up will pop up, and it'll have your score.
Your score. Yeah. Right.
Liz Herl: In, in stars. you rate an
Tim Caldwell: Uber. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yep. And everybody has it on display. You're
Liz Herl: exposed. Yeah.
Tim Caldwell: And when you, when you come encounter with people who have different scores, ~uh, ~there are people who are trying to better their scores by giving them good scores. And what do they find out?
It doesn't always work. It's not reciprocal. It's not reciprocal. It's not reciprocal. In fact,~ they even, ~they even go as far as to point out in the analysis of that episode that it's really just a division trying to protect itself in a [00:17:00] division, right? So we're 4. 8 and above and you're 4. 7. And maybe I'll help you out, maybe I won't, but in all likelihood.
You better give me a good score. It's class. It's
Liz Herl: class. It's class. It's class, yeah. At at best. And mm-Hmm. . So in this episode, she wants, she's driving to or trying to get into this 4.8 category, right? Right. And so she gets the better place. She's sharing a reasonable home with her brother. Yeah. ~Um, ~but she has to get, she wants another place.
And,
Tim Caldwell: ~um, ~once again, she's striving to get this score so she can get. Live in a better thing. They'll let her in a better community that's more accepted by other people. But it's not much better than where she's living. It's just so expensive. She's wrapped up in the idea that this will make me look better.
Liz Herl: She's wrapped up in the ideas, I'll feel better, I'll feel loved, I'll feel accepted, I'll feel [00:18:00] wanted. Yeah. As long as I get this, and there's a portion of it in the clip you watched, but the show where she is practicing laughing, like, and it's so, it's so horrible,~ um,~ just to give that indication to another human being that you're enjoying their company, which people know when someone's being real and not, but it's,~ I,~ I, the, please see me,~ um,~ please like me, like me, like me, like me.
And so she's really She walks around with this plastered smile on her face all the time. It seems painful, like, ~um,~ and it's very sad. But, and then when she encounters someone with a lower score, she really can't give them, even though they used to be her friend. She can't really engage them or talk to them because it's like, but if you're seen talking to someone who's a 3.
1, then, oh, then you're going to get scored too because you're in the lower class.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, and to help,~ uh,~ demonstrate [00:19:00] a little bit more of just how this class thing works, is, ~uh,~ at her work, you can't even work there. Right, exactly. So, this guy, this co worker of hers, who she likes, ~He fell, ~he fell below the scale and he couldn't get in the building, but she knows I can't show you any favoritism because people will see me favor you and you'll damage my score.
So she ostracizes him, he in turn ostracizes her, and in turn everybody's ostracized, right? Except for...
Liz Herl: Yeah, the upper class. So as the... Storytellers, it is a mirror of what happens to her because eventually her breakdown of this. This masquerade, this facade she's putting on,~ um,~ she goes outside,~ um,~ well she's supposed to get in a taxi, she's late for the taxi, the Uber driver scores her down,[00:20:00] ~ um,~ she's walking out to,~ um,~ her car, she bumps into someone of a 4.
2 status and higher, she spills coffee on them. And then they rate her now. So she's like spiraling. ~Um, ~Um, and then every
Tim Caldwell: little chain of events, just, right. Just keep
Liz Herl: pecking away at her. And she goes to the airport to try and get to this wedding that will, the point of her getting to this wedding is to get ~her, ~her score higher.
Tim Caldwell: And she can't even get on the plane because her score has just dramatically dropped really
Liz Herl: shortly. She can't even rent a decent car. Yeah. Because that's all her score allowed. And as she's standing in line and she's trying her best, and this is a scene that the full scene I'm describing here, you didn't see, she is like.
Almost pleading with this woman, with this plastered smile, like, I really need this. And these people behind her are just right behind her just, and then, and then she gets what's called double damage because she's over a three, she's under a three, you [00:21:00] know? And they're like, well, like you go to like score prison for that.
Which
Tim Caldwell: we find out she, she, they literally have a prison.
Liz Herl: Uhhuh . Yeah. That, that, that meet the bottom of the barrel. ~Um, ~but there is a really beautiful part of which is,~ um,~ it shows you that,~ um, she's,~ she rented this horrible car that doesn't get her there, and she's at her witts end. She's waving people down the, a trucker pulls over a female truck driver and she starts basically telling her, like, I used to play that rap.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. So from what I saw, because that social thing pops up, you little, it just pops up. The trucker looks over and sees her score and goes, I don't play that game. And she then begins to red pill her. Which is really interesting because,~ uh, ~it's really very interesting in that episode. I encourage everyone to watch it.
I will watch it again, I think. There's a lot of great symbology and stuff in there. She redpills her. And, [00:22:00] uh, for those who don't know what redpill is, she opens her eyes to the fact that this is all a lie.
Liz Herl: She said she's like the water and then the whiskey, and the whiskey was the red thermos. Right. And she, her symbolization is when she's on the side of the road, she opens up the canister and she starts chugging the whiskey.
Right, right. And it's like, that's her. Freedom, almost, not the whiskey and all that. It's the symbol, like, the symbolic piece of this is exhausting. Yeah. Like, this is so
Tim Caldwell: tiring.
I'm so tired of pretending. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Liz Herl: ~ Um, ~and then she gets to this wedding and she... Shows up. I think it's a really true self.
She calls people out in, and at this time, I mean that her, she gets no score because it goes into such a deficit. There's no, they don't go into negative.
Tim Caldwell: She didn't even have a good enough score to get in the wedding. That's right.
Liz Herl: She had to climb the wall. You didn't see the show. I didn't see the show.
The pull up. So just to climb the wall to get in.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. She shows up and she's supposed to be a bridesmaid and she's all tattered and dirty and [00:23:00] just, she looks like a wreck. But at this point, she's totally red-pilled, right? She's done playing the game, and she, she lets it all out.
Liz Herl: Security drags her off and. ~Um, ~she's telling this childhood friend,~ um,~ I think it's I Love You Nay Nay, I think is what she's saying, which is her nickname.
And when they were, and it's so beautiful because when you watch it,~ uh,~ their friendship began out of, they would, they had little rag dolls that they would, I think they either made for each other or something along those lines. Hey! But the innocence of children, and it was in that moment ~that~ that's what like really kind of got to me was, how did we lose all of this?
How did we get to this level where, by the way, ~um. Um, ~she, you know, was screaming out profanities and she's saying, you know, I slept with your husband you just married. ~Um, ~yeah.
Tim Caldwell: She totally turns over every
Liz Herl: one of them. It's kind of beautiful, but yeah, probably a little alarming.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. You know, ~uh,~ I'm not [00:24:00] sure how you say the name, Wachovy, Wachovy Brothers, they're the ones that I've seen.
It's supposed to be like a dark comedy. Yeah. It's dark and there are things that are, there are fun, there are funny parts in it, but,~ um,~ in that she comes to the realization that the freedom is to cast off all of these cares of being so, ~um, ~but it's too late because now she's headed for score prison or whatever.
They literally lock her in.
Liz Herl: So, well, as they talk about the show's premise is all these pastel light free colors, like nothing~ is, ~is darker are a darker moment, not just in her cell that she gets put into, but,~ um,~ when she's in ~the, ~the truck driver's cab, like that's probably the, another area where she's, you know, like a flannel, you know, just normal inner, you know, ~um, ~attire I would say.
Like, this truck driver is not playing the role anymore, like she's done, [00:25:00] and which is a little alarming for the actress who's playing the role, like, how do you just not do it? Yeah. And I will tell you how many times do I get, and I'm sure you've had this, how do you not care, Liz? And I'm like, it's not that I don't care because my daughter has asked me that, Mom, I wish she could be like you and not care.
And I'm like, I do care, but I just don't let it accumulate to the value of who I am. Yeah. Right? Like, I'm not going to stress myself to a place of... If this is just something you're not open about, that's fine.
Tim Caldwell: I'll be the devil's advocate here because part of the reason they seek you out in treatment is somebody needs to speak to somebody who cares.
You care. Absolutely. I guarantee you care. I know you personally that you're very caring. But, you know, to put a finer point on what you meant about not caring is... You can't pour yourself into everything. There'll be nothing left of you. And you're gonna have to pick and choose. [00:26:00] Are these things that,~ um,~ is the return on investment?
Is there hope that they'll ever be returned? Will it be reciprocated? I don't know. We all have tolerances, and those tolerances can be severely dashed by disappointment. People who can harm you the most in disappointment are family and people you love. I mean, promises made are not promises kept, and they just, and they can be so devastating.
~Um, ~I understand the not caring. ~I,~ we, we've,~ um,~ commented about the commonality in the way that we're raised and that I have,~ um,~ no,~ um,~ qualms about saying that I've been accused by people who I thought were my friends and family about being a little cold and ~distant about,~ distant about some things. ~Um, ~some things around money and some things around health and some things.
~Um, ~it's not that I'm cold, it's that I'm gonna tell you the cold, [00:27:00] I'm gonna tell you the cold hard facts, and then I'm gonna step back. You're gonna deal with it, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be a monkey in your circus. ~You need,~ you need help, I'm here, but ~uh, I have,~ I have my own circus to run, right? I don't have a, I don't have time for everybody else's circus.
Liz Herl: Not my monkey, not my circus.
Tim Caldwell: That's fair. Isn't that fair? I think that's fair.
Liz Herl: Oh, it's beyond fair.~ It's, it's, ~it's healthy mindset right there. I can't go around being everybody's savior. Yeah. No thanks. Yeah. For passing.
Tim Caldwell: You know,~ the,~ the neat thing about this program, and I'm glad we got a chance to talk about this.
~Um,~ this really hit us today, and I appreciate that ~you,~ you brought this up. But in the realm of acceptance. ~How, how do you, ~how do those, well, I shouldn't say put this way. There are people who are like firebrands. Now, not the extreme Elon Musk's and,~ uh,~ all of those people who [00:28:00] create AI and all of these people who are just innovative beyond innovative.
~Um, ~I'm not talking to that realm, but I am talking about people who are successful in business. They have successful marriages and they have successful businesses and they have successful. Well, you know, the common thing with most of those people is that,~ uh,~ it's not a lack of caring. It's the fact that they very much manage what they care about.
And a lot of it is,~ um,~ I think it's a lie when people say, Well, I don't care what people think. You care.
Liz Herl: Everybody cares. Everybody cares. Everybody cares.
Tim Caldwell: I'll wear what I want and I don't care what you think. You're wearing, you're wearing what you're wearing because you want me to care about what you're wearing.
That's just the truth. When you have profanity or whatever, you're telling me that I should have a care, good or bad. ~Um,~ but in that, the people that are brave enough to do that are the people who want to stand behind it. [00:29:00] I do this and sometimes you get beat down, sometimes you get things clarified and you change your own opinion, but at least you're doing your own thing.
~And if you're going to follow,~ if you're just going to follow the herd and be... Cheapish about these things, like we talked about before, I go along to get along. Dead fish follow the flow of the river, right? ~Um,~ some people have to make, I mean, ~it's a,~ it's a battle for fish to swim upstream. Not only is it against the current, but it's against the others.
Where are you going? Move that way. That's hard work.
Liz Herl: And that's actually crowned upon in our society. I mean, I watch a variety of different podcasts. And when anyone is challenging anyone's ideas or belief systems, just because it's their perspective, they can, you know, that will be a whole other episode, but cancel culture.
Like, well, let's just get rid of you because what you're saying is [00:30:00] hurtful or unkind or whatever.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. What do you think the lesson is learned? What lesson should people learn from this? From?
Liz Herl: When people hear When you say this?
Tim Caldwell: When people hear us speak about the lessons of being your own person and not to feel a victim to social acceptance what should they take from this?
Liz Herl: I think it's awareness is my hope. My hope is awareness that I mean it sounds cliche to say you're not alone, but you're not alone. We all feel. We all want to belong. We all want to feel accepted. We want to have a connection. But at what cost? Which is something we talked about earlier. To yourself, if you're continuously negotiating yourself out the door in every aspect and engagement that you're in.
Or compromise. Yeah, I just,~ I'm,~ I'm like, it's not, it's not worth it to me at that [00:31:00] point. ~I,~ I, and I, that's my hope of around that is a driven awareness here. That. You don't have to have a score. You have the like button. You don't have to. Do you even like you? I mean, That's a huge thing.
Tim Caldwell: We, you know, we can, there's more to talk about.
We talked about our upbringing. I, I have, I have something I always want to pose to people is that,~ um,~ post World War II, ~um,~ we were, Americans were fed a pretty good bag of Not lies, but false promises. ~Um, ~buy now, pay later. ~Um, ~college is the only way you're going to be a successful person. Home ownership.
~Um,~ those are some pretty big fibs. Now, there was a time that those things mattered. And they were an okay model to pursue. But as we [00:32:00] get going, as in all things created by,~ um, ~many outside influences, and I would say the banking industry and the school.~ Juggernaut,~ the post educational juggernaut that's educationed now.
~Um,~ it's not very feasible, but I should say, ~these are some of the, ~these are some of the things you're not told about, is,~ um,~ We used to be ~multiple,~ multiple generations in homes. ~Um, I know that, I, ~my great grandmother,~ um,~ and my brother, And sometimes even my father, we had three generations in one house living there.
~Um, ~other cultures have five, right? You may, ~you may ~have your great-grandmother. Absolutely. And your and her great-great-grandchildren living in, in one home. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . But in America, we,~ uh,~ we were sold this bill of goods, and let's see if this is new to people. And a new concept was, Hey, you know what, if you're really doing good, you need to go out and get your own home.
Now, that aspires to, I am doing good, and I will go get my mortgage. But you [00:33:00] know what happened was, in the banking industry, they're wringing their hands. Excellent. I took a home, a home that was doing well, I split it in half, and now I have two mortgages going.
Liz Herl: Can I just tell you that small, small segway?
Yeah. And that is... The ridiculous size of a home for like two people. It's crazy. You two people live here? Like, when I think about, you know, five generations living in a home. And it's like a three bedroom home. But in other homes, it's like two people live in this little mini mansion.
Tim Caldwell: I've told you before this story.
My family, my eldest brother owned a large engineering company. And he'd bring representatives over from other countries. And he brought these four or five Chinese men over. And they walked in his house, and they were taking pictures. How many families live in this home? And he goes, it's just me and my wife.
They were blown away! Because a small village would live in that home. Right? And they're blown away. ~Uh, ~back to [00:34:00] my point, and that is,~ um,~ so, ~uh, ~now banking has other things, too. Buy now, pay later. It's a horrible thing to do with most people who are just, it's just too easy to... Back then it was write checks.
Write a check. ~Um, ~and you don't see that money leaving your account because it's so easy to just put in an ink on a piece of paper that's a promissory note and you don't have it. The old joke is, how can I be broke? I still got checks.
Liz Herl: Well, and I was going to say that and the joke is, will you take a check?
Yeah. That's a check? I hear checks all day.
Tim Caldwell: They double down on that. Now they give you a checking account. Hey, you know what you need? You need a debit card. So now you have a checking account, you're writing on that, and they have a debit card. And you know, you're not paying attention. I have no idea what I wrote down a check a week ago, and it's gonna hit the bank, and I'm gonna use my debit card to get fuel or groceries or whatever.
Ugh! That plays in the same, the exact same scenario as,~ uh,~ credit [00:35:00] cards. It's gonna date me. It's just too easy to swipe that card.
Liz Herl: When I say this, it's... I know, this would be very easy for you to refer to, but it's gonna date me. Oh, thanks Liz. Thanks Liz, go ahead. It's probably created in your time. Oh, my Liz.
And this is just the way it is. I don't think it's a fault of any. It is. And then is, my children wouldn't know if I told them when I did a checkbook and what the register was. How to balance? I would write in my check number, and what I did, and how much it was, and I'd deduct what was in my account, and then I'm good.
The register. Yeah. And that's how I'm, well, we didn't have online banking and all the things, right? No. You didn't just gamble and say, well, let's see if there's some money in there. Yeah, yeah.
Tim Caldwell: No, I mean... That's right. And you know, here's, here's the thing. So, long story short, what's the difference? Is the people who had a good grasp of these things were the older generation that said, you don't live outside your means.
Yeah.
Liz Herl: Right? Yeah, yeah, [00:36:00] yeah. Pay your bills.
Tim Caldwell: ~Um, ~not to give you,~ uh,~ ammunition, but I'm an all cash guy. I, I either pay with an account I have a, I know exactly what that's in and exactly what that's for. I pay into that account all the time. But if I have cash, I pay in cash. I don't buy anything, it's a big purchase.
It's paid in cash. I know that it's gone in cash. I'm not gonna write a check. I'm not gonna trade a debit or use credit, I mean use cash. It flies in the face of my credit score because now my credit score is not growing because I'm not, which, you know,
Liz Herl: you clearly dunno how to manage your money.
Tim Caldwell: I could give a crap about my credit score and that just,
Liz Herl: well, which is circle right back down.
I know. So in this, in the Black mirror. Mm-Hmm. , that's what that accrues. It accrues not only your likability but your financial pieces like you cannot get into certain financial institutions because of your credit score. She couldn't get into this home, which is ironic, because it's true. You can't get some [00:37:00] homes because of your credit score.
But, and they were saying, oh, your circle's too small. You need to get this, you need to do all these things. And so she's just striving to do what she needs to do to get seen. So, I, that's my question. Does society cultivate neediness? Hmm.
Tim Caldwell: Does it cultivate neediness?
It seems to, doesn't it? It seems to be, it seems to be with the ease of swipe up, swipe left or right. I know that I've seen stuff on the, on your phone, your handheld devices where It's just so easy. Um, look, swipe. It's mine now. That's beyond credit card. It's swipe. It's mine now. If you have your credit card on file, all I gotta do is accept.
Liz Herl: That's exactly right. On my Amazon account, there is, you can put it in your cart or you can buy now. And if you push buy now button, you're immediately, I [00:38:00] mean, it's shipped. It's done. It's a done deal. It's crazy.
Tim Caldwell: It's crazy. I don't, I just don't know where that end? Oh, no, it just spirals. What's the goal? I mean, at some point, at some point, there's got to be some,~ um,~ Resolve that, ~how,~ what are we, ~what are we~ doing by driving a society into just
Liz Herl: instant gratification?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, that, but, I'm just running you into the ground. Is it so that you become reliant on somebody else?
Liz Herl: Oh, I mean codependency?
Tim Caldwell: I mean, debtor's prison. I mean, are we going to be indentured servants to our country? I, I don't know. This is all, this is all Huxley. Orwellian to me, but it is, it is true. It is, it is actually in place just like AI, right?
But [00:39:00] the message, I guess the message I want to try to put to others is, ~um.~ This is, this comes from my age, my family, military graves, military graves. ~Um,~ we don't live in a society that will, that believes in, will fight for or die for anything. And I mean anything.
Liz Herl: I'm not challenging.
Tim Caldwell: Anything. I'll
Liz Herl: take that.
We believe in a
momentary idea of a thought that we have. And we will, we will stand on our righteous mountain to cut you down.
Tim Caldwell: It's true. To put to one point. Would you give your life for it?
Liz Herl: Hell no. . Yeah. I give my life for it.
Tim Caldwell: Well, that's my point is I'm, I'm the on the end of the Boomers and all of my family, ~um,~ all the male [00:40:00] members of my family have served in our nation.
I, I wore two uniforms in that I want people to know that, ~um.~ It's a show. I'm not doing it for a show. I'm not doing it for the accolades or even for the, you know, Hey, let's recognize the veterans at a hockey game. I don't care what people know about that. I'm just saying we live in a society that now has become so
wrapped up in what, what they think needs to be acceptance by others, that you don't even accept where you are or what you live in, or what you are, what you are doing in your life or the, the ability to change that is your choice. You have that ability.
Liz Herl: You have, it's always, it's always the individual's choice.
At the end of the day, the person that has to do most of the work is you. Yeah. And you relying on anybody else to do that work. That's true.
Tim Caldwell: But the message I want would send people about. Acceptance is,~ um,~ you can do this all on your own. ~We've,~ we've talked, we've talked, we've talked about this [00:41:00] before, is that people who are successful at a lot of things, if they'll take the time and a bit of humility and look back, they'll realize they couldn't do it alone.
But I'm not, I'm not one that would fall into the paradigm that it took a village. It didn't took a village, it took one or two people to believe in me, motivate me, inspire me. But definitely somebody I could model. And I can forge ahead and I'll find another person, an island of people, a group of people, I'll model, right?
And I'm not holding myself up as a model to anybody else, I'm just saying that's a good way to go through life. Find people, and acceptance be damned, if you really believe in it. Do it. If you really believe it, do it.
Liz Herl: One more pushback on, you said this before in a previous episode, maybe body positivity, I can't recall.
But when you say that you challenge the village concept, idea, whatever you[00:42:00]
one of, it's actually a really sweet, cherished memory I have, that It's kind of like when you say everybody's poor, you just don't know you're poor, you just don't know you're poor. We all, we lived in,~ um,~ a very small trailer home, uh, trailer park. And we did help each other though. I mean, it was the cup of sugar.
It was, hey, you know, do you have a few bucks for a couple, you know, for some bread and milk? By the way, back then, a couple bucks could get you some bread and milk. But anyways,~ um,~ I don't know, I'm dating myself, but. There was that, hey, I'm going to run to the store, can you keep an eye on the kids? I remember that.
~Um, ~and there, you didn't fear so much of, well, what is this person going to do to my child and things of that nature that you have to consider now. Not to say that those dangers weren't there then, I want to be clear. Yeah. But there was a sense of community. Yeah. And [00:43:00] family and... And it was really quite wonderful.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. And in my defense, I remember those times too. ~Um, ~I remember party lines on phones. I remember that. You had to pick up the phone and ask, is anybody on here? And you could talk. And you could talk and you'd go, I'm on here, could you hang up the rrrr? Yeah. No, thanks. Thanks, Liz. The pushback I have about the, I heard it again.
The pushback. And Andy Griffiths, thank you. ~Um, ~My pushback, my defense to that is I remember those times too. I, I remember watching my mother and grandmother,~ um,~
Tim Caldwell: ~uh, ~prepare the meat that was offered by a neighbor and would share it among, I remember.
Liz Herl: That's right, yes, we would make pots of chili and, and. We, this was pretty inexpensive to make.
My mom would make vats of chili. Yeah. And we would all be sitting around on the ground, in the middle. I mean, it was winter by the [00:44:00] way. And just outside, just talking. Like, it was, it was really quite beautiful. You know what's different
Tim Caldwell: though on today? is ~um, ~you owe me that sugar. Now, and this is, this is, You owe me something.
This is hard to hear. Somebody owes me something. I shouldn't be in this trailer park. I'm a good person. And, but if I look at your record, you borrow sugar from me every month. You borrow, get a grip. Get control. Get, if you know you're gonna be, well I can't afford sugar, then stop using sugar. I, I, we're only using that as an example.
I'm just saying, live within your means, and ~Um, ~people are, people will be accepting if it's within means, especially their own means. But if it's, if it's within their means of morality and ethics, just be, if their default mode is kindness, it'll work. But we don't, in today's society, we have a lot of people who go through [00:45:00] this in light.
Not the enlightenment entitlement. And when it comes to, um, do people feel like they're being accepted, I'm not being accepted in their own color. I'm the wrong size. I have glasses, I have braces, I have pen, skin, I don't know, whatever draw. I'm too short, I'm too fat, I'm too, whatever that is, I'm a victim.
And that's where acceptance is. Back to the bully again.
Liz Herl: Sure. So to round out this episode, and that is, I, I'll go back and I'll, I'll put that in as. My hope in all of our conversation here is I would want you to look within yourself. Who am I comparing myself to? Why? And even this is what I, one other thing, stop judging yourself today for who you were two days ago, much less 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago, because I can tell you the Liz 20 [00:46:00] years ago is not the list today.
And I'm not, ~I'm not~ I'm not going to pay for the sins of my past, of my behaviors and all that. When do I give myself? You know, compassion and consideration and all that, and accept all the growth that I am today as a whole self, as it, as it just me. Well, that's what you can do.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. You can. And then seek help.
Ask for it. ~Um.~
Liz Herl: Cause you may not, you're right. You may not have, you know, necessarily the road paved out in front of you, but yeah, go on and see if you can get a navigator.
Tim Caldwell: A lot of times. Yeah. A lot of times in life. The road is being laid brick by brick. Literally, you're walking up and wondering where that next brick will be.
And you could be so overextended, you're about to fall. It's, it's, you know, it's a miracle that that next brick lands. But you know what? It just takes hard work. Experience. You have to be able to fall back on what you know [00:47:00] works, and some very conservative values, and those are the things that hard work.
But know who you are inside. I can do this. I can do this. What's the, what do I always tell you about trading? You tell me a lot of things about trading. Yeah. But it was a word you started using when you... Didn't feel like you could do something. Kept saying I can't. And I don't, I don't, I don't believe that.
~If I, ~if I didn't see... But I
Liz Herl: stopped recently. Yes you did.
Tim Caldwell: But the encouragement of your friends and the people who love and encourage you will be... Yeah you can. Let me show
Liz Herl: you. Yeah,~ um,~ you just mostly challenged me. Why are you saying I can't? That wasn't a part of something you used to say before. Yeah, right.
This has become new. Then you made me think about it. Why am I saying that? Because, because I'm... Me, me. Thank you again for being here.
Tim Caldwell: I appreciate it. You know, Liz, make sure that you save this little part at the bottom. We haven't been saved. [00:48:00]
Liz Herl: To go to social media, which is so ironic that I would
Tim Caldwell: say that.
We're totally learning as
Liz Herl: we go. No, but I'm just talking about likeability. Yeah. Now, would you please go to
Tim Caldwell: social media and like it? Yeah, that's right. If you want to hear more about it.
Liz Herl: That's what it's about. If you want you want to hear more, go to our website, my website, Anchored in Chaos. And also, I am all the sudden on social media platforms.
Yeah,
Tim Caldwell: like, share, comment. Comment,
Liz Herl: yes, I do like comments. I'm not opposed, hey, challenge me, I don't have any issue with that. Yeah. Or just inquire, not necessarily challenge me.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, I don't think, you know, ~um, ~just a quick closing caption. It's just that I get to be Liz's foil a little bit. I get to be a bit more...
I get to be a little bit more of the adjutant, and Liz is very good about what she does. She's a goof. ~Um, ~but the whole idea is,~ uh,~ we're going to, be some [00:49:00] pushback and straight talk, and that's exactly what we want people to have in these kind of conversations.
Liz Herl: I couldn't agree more because I'm giving them a little taste.
The next episode, we're going to go over one word. We're not putting anything before it or anything after it. We're going to have a topic. From a woman's perspective and a man's perspective, a masculinity. Now that might be when we get a lot of comments. That's cool. Yeah, that's cool. All right.
Tim Caldwell: Thanks, Liz.
See you.