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Davidson Wicker breaks down the most common work management mistakes agencies make and explains why the tool is rarely the problem — the missing ownership is.
Agency Forward explores the future of agencies as tech and AI drive down the cost of tactical deliverables. Topics include building competent teams, developing strategic offers, systemizing your business, and more.
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Chris DuBois 0:00
Hey everyone, today I'm joined by Davidson Wicker. Davidson is a work management expert and the CEO of Ravetry, helping agencies and professional services firms get more from their project management system. Now he's seen the same patterns play out across hundreds of teams, tools get implemented, nobody adopts it properly, and the founder ends up back in spreadsheets within six months. I wanted to have Davidson on because most agency owners have a project management tool, but very few have a project management culture. There's a difference, and that gap is where most delivery problems actually live. He's got the solution with his tool and methodologies. In this episode, we discuss the number one work management mistake that agencies repeat over and over. What agencies considering a new PM tool get wrong before they buy. How to enforce consistent usage across a team without micromanaging, and more. No one was asking for another community, but I made one anyway, so what's different. The dynamic agency community is designed around access rather than content, access to peers who've done it before, access to experts who've designed solutions, access to resources that have been battle tested, and right now the price for founding members is only $97 a year. Join today, so your agency has immediate access to everything you need to grow. You can join at Dynamic Agency dot community. And now, Davidson Wicker. It's easier than ever to start an agency, but it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is Agency Forward. So, what mistakes do the UC agencies make, just like over and over with work management?
Speaker 1 2:00
Yeah, so the main one is not having sort of an owner of the product at the company who's really enforcing its use, and you know, we see this a lot with companies who are considering Ravetry, and you know, we always ask, like, well, what are you using, and, and, and I actually had a LinkedIn post about this recently, but one of the categories of prospects we see is people who are jumping from tool to tool, and you know, to me that's kind of a red flag. I mean, what, why is that? And usually it's just there's no one at the company who's saying, look, this is what we're using, and we're going to use it, and you know, it's as simple as that, but if you don't have someone who is kind of the advocate at the company for adopting a new tool, it, it just, it doesn't work. So we really push for that with new, new customers, you know, we say, look, you've, you've got to have someone there who's, you know, letting everyone know why you're using a new tool and how it can benefit the company, so that's really the main thing.
Chris DuBois 3:07
Yeah, as those that are jumping from doodle tool to tool, it's like, are they just seeking that magic bullet? Like, is that they think the tool is going to solve everything for them?
Speaker 1 3:18
Yeah, I think so. And so there's kind of two sides to this, and I'm sure you see this with what you do, but there's the mindset. Well, the tool doesn't matter. You got to have the process. Any tool will work. And then you know people who you know, like, like me, you know, who are running software companies, are saying, well, you know, the tool does matter. It doesn't mean that a process doesn't matter too. They both matter, and I think for the ones that are jumping around, maybe they don't have a good process, and they think that having a new tool will help. Sometimes they get the one that's got the, you know, the unicorns that jump across the screen, or whatever. It looks flashy, but it doesn't necessarily solve the problems that they have. So, yeah,
Chris DuBois 4:00
I think that that's what we're seeing. Yeah, there's probably another layer to it as well, where you see this a lot with CRMs, where as soon as the data doesn't work in the CRM, like it's wrong, and everybody knows that that data is wrong, so then nobody goes to the CRM, like they just don't want to use it, and so I imagine with you know, any work management tool, it's like, as soon as this doesn't show me the actual picture of where we're at with our projects and everything, it's like, what's the point in actually going in and updating, and so some of the team members won't do it. So, I guess, are you seeing with a lack of ownership, is that one of the more common, you know, experiences?
Speaker 1 4:38
Yeah, we see that sometimes, and I think this is more, more common when you have separate tools, and of course that's part of our pitch, is you know, with with Rave Tree, it's an all in one, and you don't have that separate CRM and the separate time tracking, and you know, add your other tools to the mix, but yeah, I mean, in a. Of course, on the CRM side of things, it's the cliche is, you know, salespeople don't want to enter data, you know, they don't like updating things, but, but it's important to do it. Everyone benefits by seeing updated information, and it just takes a little bit of effort, doesn't take much to put that data in, whether it's a comment or whatever the data may be, so it is important, and I think when, when people realize by just spending a small amount of time, and it could literally be like 20 seconds, you know, updating a file or whatever, the benefit you get from that, it is hard to measure, but you're definitely going to benefit by putting in all the data points,
Chris DuBois 5:42
right? Yeah, I think, like, data hygiene is as difficult with sales reps as, like, oral hygiene with toddlers, where you're just, please, we know this is going to be good for you, please just do
Speaker 1 5:56
it. I love that phrase, and that's kind of a thing. Also, on the software side, the technical side is it's usually about like commenting your code, and of course, now with AI, you know, a lot of that's changing, but you know, if you don't, if you're not updating the comments, then you know people can't understand what you're doing, and and one downside to that, it's almost like incorrect comments are worse than no common, but yeah, that's just again on the technical side.
Chris DuBois 6:25
Yeah, no, I can definitely see that out of curiosity. When, when an agency comes to you guys, how many tools on average are they already using to manage their work?
Speaker 1 6:36
Yeah, so it varies. I mean, I think the most we've seen is maybe like five or six, you know, so this could be, and of course it depends on how you want to define it, you know, it's like this email account, but the utility tools aside, like email and file storage, etc. you know, there's spreadsheets, a lot of spreadsheets, we see a lot of people that are using, you know, a separate time tracking tool, of course, they've got their accounting software, which they're still going to need if they're using something like Ravetree, because we don't do general ledger accounting, we do integrate with those services, though it could be a resource management tool. We've seen companies, they're using like three or four project management tools, they're they've got Trello, Asana, Monday, like all at the same time, and to me that's just ridiculous, and that where you have, honestly, you know, poor leadership, who's who's just saying, well, on one hand it sounds good, let the teams use the tools they want to use, I mean, that sounds good, and everything, give them the freedom of choice, but at the end of the day, data is everywhere, no one knows what's going on, so yeah, it could be five or six different tools.
Chris DuBois 7:46
Yeah, I guess if they are using kind of competing tools, is it is it more so that the different teams within the agency are just using other things, or is it they're like, hey, for this process we really like Trello versus whatever.
Speaker 1 8:03
Yeah, I mean, the reason for that is a bit of a mystery to me, but down to, you know, you've got, you know, just maybe like design team, if it's an agency's website, maybe there's a, you know, a software team, and and they all kind of have their own preference for a tool, and they run with it, you know. Software might prefer Jira. Maybe you've got engineers who came from a product company, so they're used to using Jira, and then they move into an agency setting, and they're like, "Well, let's just keep using that. And then designers, maybe they were freelancers before they moved to an agency, and they were used to using Trello. And then they start leading the team, and they're like, well, let's just use Trello, and that's how you get this hodgepodge of just a bunch of different tools that are not talking to each other, and you know, make everything just disconnected and fragmented,
Chris DuBois 8:52
right? So, what's your advice to, like, an agency owner who's ready to kind of simplify, move on to one platform, reduce all of those other kind of data sources. How do you, how would you recommend they get after that change, so the team actually adopts it?
Speaker 1 9:08
Yeah, so they have to really communicate why they're making the change. I think that's critical. Just simply saying, oh, we're moving to a new platform. Okay, well, you're just telling me what we're doing, but why are we doing it? I think the why is really, really critical, and you know, once people understand, then they're not going to, you know, get upset when they have to log time, right? I mean, no one likes logging time, that's kind of the big thing that a lot of agencies are doing, and no one wants to log their time, you know, it could be in a law firm or any anybody's doing billable hours, it's not the most fun thing to do, but if you understand why you're doing it beyond just kind of the obvious, then I think people are less, you know, reluctant to get it to get the job done, so yeah, communicating wise, definitely the most.
Chris DuBois 10:00
Important thing, yeah. Time tracking is probably one of the best examples to get out here. So, the argument everyone wants to make is that it's like, I don't want to micromanage. It's like, yeah, but like, if you frame this up as a positive for the team, of like, hey, if I know where your time's going, then I can help you get more resources to help with, like, this thing takes you six hours. I know we should probably aim for like three. I'm going to help you be able to do that, or like I'm not going to overburden you with more tasks if I know it's actually going to take longer than we expect.
Speaker 1 10:32
Yeah, and you know, and I don't think it's micromanaging, you know, and someone who's told they have a long time might think that, but it's not about micromanaging, I mean, first of all, you're probably billing by the hour, even if you're not, even if you're doing fixed fee work, and a lot of our customers are doing both, you know, you still want to know where your time is being spent, and so I used to be a software engineer, and when I was working at other companies, I had to log my time, I didn't really enjoy doing it, but I understood that, you know, this was just part of the job, and of course we were using Jira, and it wasn't, you know, maybe the best tool for doing that, but yeah, it's just it's it's something that has to get
Chris DuBois 11:14
done, right? Yeah, when I was running an agency, it was, I mean, time tracking was just part of our flow, it was definitely annoying for everyone, but we didn't have a ton of issues with people doing it, but I was talking with one of our developers, and he had a Stream Deck, and I basically rigged all the buttons so that he could just start time on various tasks and stop time and everything, so he never had to actually open the time management tool, he was just right from his desk, we just click up, doing this now, click it. It would start the timer, so I guess we had a system like that, right? Awesome for everybody. Yeah,
Speaker 1 11:48
absolutely.
Chris DuBois 11:49
But yeah, he was a nerd, so everyone can do that. Shifting gears a bit, so let's say someone does adopt new like work management tool. What are the things that they usually get wrong with, like just the initial structuring of it, like what should they be tracking, what should they be thinking about setting up, and then why don't they?
Speaker 1 12:10
Yeah, I think the one thing that we see is sometimes a company can just over architect what they're trying to do. Now, for example, in Ravetry, you can create really simple projects, simple tasks, or you can create really complex structures with dependencies, nested tasks, is, you know, 10 levels deep, if you need, and I think sometimes, you know, companies can kind of over architect what they're trying to do, and you know it's easy for someone with an engineering mindset to want to do that, but I think you know keeping it as simple as possible is always the best approach, you know, and that can still mean you've got, you know, nested structure and dependencies, and so on, but start simple, add complexity only when you need it, when you find that you're not getting the data that you need, or whatever it may be, but don't start complicated and then simplify from there, because what can happen, especially if you're moving from an environment where there's no process, and then you say, okay, we're going to get this new tool, and we're going to add this really complex process that's that's culture shock, you know, to a company, and if you're not a manager who's, you know, on a day to day basis extracting that data, you're just kind of a doer, then that's going to be that's going to be confusing to you, and you're probably going to, you know, go against it at some level, so yeah, just keep it as simple as possible, definitely. So it's good advice for anything, really,
Chris DuBois 13:50
with with Ravetry. Do you, or I guess, across all your clients, you guess fine? You have more project managers like structuring everything within their accounts, running that, or like a, I don't know, maybe like a head of operations or something that's kind of overseeing everything and aligning the pieces for the project managers to just kind of execute the work within the system.
Speaker 1 14:14
So, more on the project manager side of things, usually there's a handful of power users that are typically project managers, a lot of times the agency owners, principals, presidents, whatever their title may be, managing directors, they're they're not necessarily in their day to day, they'll go in there at the end of the week, the end of the month, look at some metrics, things like that, but it's the project managers that are, you know the power users, for sure,
Chris DuBois 14:44
right? Yeah, I'm trying to.. when we were running an agency, I think all of our marketers were also their own project manager for that account, but we had a like.. when I was head of ops, like I kind of built out everything in our system of like. Hey, here's the path we're all going to take. Let me do, like, the high-level thinking for you, and then you just work within the system for your clients. That seemed to work well for us, but we were also very.. I don't know, like we weren't in pods or anything, but it felt very much like we were empowering each individual user, so like, there it wasn't the most streamlined, I guess, is what I'm saying, like every every person could kind of do what they wanted within the accounts themselves, and yeah, I don't know, that was the best way, in retrospect, the best way to run things, and so
Speaker 1 15:35
yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, you know, I mean, there's a balance, right, and it depends on the agency, right. A 10 person agency is very different from, like, an 80 person agency. Even so, when you get to that size, which for an agency is kind of a little bit on the larger end, I mean, obviously there's agencies with 1000s of people, but most are in that kind of smaller range, but when you get above, you know a number where you've got more than one team, you know, you want to have a little bit, you want to offer or allow for a little bit of autonomy between the different teams, but still kind of have like an overall structure in which everyone adheres.
Chris DuBois 16:16
Yeah, I imagine there's a bit of, so, like, in the military, we kind of, we have command and control, and they're just on different ends of the same spectrum, right? Where it's like command is more, I want to give you the mission and just trust you to go, go take care of it, versus control, where it's like kind of basic training style, like I do not trust you to actually solve things. Let me walk you through this, and like everyone exists kind of on that spectrum somewhere, and so, like, more experienced teams might be able to run the command play, versus, like, hey, we gotta, we have a lot of, like, very junior team members, so let me lean into the control side. Yeah, so I guess I could see that having the, the ability to move around on that spectrum within whatever work management platforms, as your team does get, get better, you can kind of shift that way. I think that would be great. Makes sense, but yeah, so I guess you brought up, like, we don't want to move from being complex to being simple, we'd rather move from simplicity to complexity, as we, we need to adopt other things. What are what are some of, like, those data points that we want to be able to identify within our work management system, so that our agency can thrive.
Speaker 1 17:31
Yeah, I think the most common one is utilization rates, just knowing, you know, who's over utilized, underutilized. When do we need to bring on more designers or more content writers, whatever it may be, but yeah, just tracking utilization, definitely,
Chris DuBois 17:51
yeah. And is there a so, like, utilization? A lot of agencies think about it differently with, like, how much they're utilizing, and, like, what percentage do we actually move up? Do we need everyone at 100% Do we want wiggle room at 90? Do you have recommendations for how they even view that?
Speaker 1 18:09
You know, not really, just because we've seen so many different philosophies on that, but you know, one of the things that just maybe to go off in a little bit of a pitch with Ravetry for a second, but one of the things that we do around utilization and allowing them to accurately track it is pulling in events and meetings, you know, from their Google calendar or Outlook calendar, so you know Ravetry, you know, you're assigned a task for four hours a day, or you know, whatever it may be, and that all adds up. And okay, now we're like seven hours, and you know, we've got eight hours of availability, but but then if you're in a two hour meeting, you know, then you're over one hour, right? So now we're actually pulling in those calendar events, so they will impact your availability on the schedule and the utilization feature in Ravetry, but yeah, I mean, we've seen agencies say, well, you've got, you know, you work eight hours a day, but, like, really, if you're at six hours, then we consider that 100% two hours of kind of flex time for other things, you know, meetings, or whatever,
Chris DuBois 19:19
internal, yeah,
Speaker 1 19:20
yeah, so, but it varies a lot, and we see a lot of different, different things. We actually had one customer, and the one person at the company, and they were like, maybe like a 28 or 30 person agency, something like that, and and she was booked for like 35 hours, like a day, you know, so well, that's impossible, but I think she was like assigning herself to everything that she was managing, which, you know, we kind
Chris DuBois 19:51
of
Speaker 1 19:52
inspected her on a better way to do it, but
Chris DuBois 19:55
right, yes, well, and so that kid brings up like another. A good insight, like even, even for like the founders and managers, right, who do want that oversight on everything, they should be tracking their time, like what tasks they're actually having to to put an effort on, because that's going to influence what the rest of the team has to do, and if they need to hire, they can see all these things. How do you recommend like the leadership team actually gets in, sees the data that they, they need to, without having to be personally involved in every task.
Speaker 1 20:29
Well, I mean, it's just a matter of how they choose to sort of attach themselves to that work, right? So, if you're a manager, you're managing, let's say, you're managing like six people, eight people, whatever, you know, you don't need to assign yourself to all the same tasks, I mean, you can, but in Ravetry, we've got this concept of an owner, right, so you can be the owner of a task, which you can interpret however you want, but typically that'd be like the manager, and then you've got the assignees, so we, you know, we'll say just add yourself as an owner to all these tasks that you're managing, but you're not the assignee, and then you can run reports in Ravetry and say, well, show me total hours for, you know, based on things I'm assigned, as opposed to things where I'm the owner. Then you can get a nice kind of sort of split between the two, and instead of that scenario I was mentioning, where someone was booked for like 35 hours on a day, you know, because they were assigning themselves to things and didn't realize that they could actually segment sort of total managed hours, let's say, versus, you know, assigned hours,
Chris DuBois 21:34
right? That makes sense. And as an owner, they can still get all the notifications and everything that they would want for the tasks,
Speaker 1 21:41
right. In fact, we even have a third thing where you can be a follower, so if you're, if you're the owner or the assignee of a task or a project or whatever, then you're automatically added as an as a follower, and the followers are basically people who get the notifications, but you can disable that, so you could say, well, I want to be the owner but not be a follower, or I want to follow it, and I'm not an owner or an assignee, but for whatever reason, you still just want to be in the loop regarding the updates on that particular item,
Chris DuBois 22:09
right? Makes sense. Shifting gears a bit, is there a methodology that you've been seeing work better for agencies like Agile, anything like that?
Speaker 1 22:20
Yeah, and that's that's a good question. So, we early on, we sort of like we were in, in the agile thing, you know, and maybe that's because, you know, I came from software where agile is real big, and at the time, you know, agile marketing was kind of a big thing, a lot of people were talking about it, seems like I don't hear that as much anymore, agile marketing, and maybe it was more so in like marketing departments as opposed to in agencies, but we still used to hear it, I think. Now it's like, honestly, waterfall is what we see more of, you know, using Gantt charts, creating dependencies, you know, and there's some elements of agile that are sort of integrated into that waterfall, that traditional waterfall mindset, but you know, I think in looking back at the time when we were more kind of focused on agile, like we used to have explicit constructs in Ravetry for for sprint management, things like that, and you can still do that in Ravetry. You can do it actually really well, probably better than before. But there's a lot of rituals around being agile. If you want to just go, like, buy the book agile, you know, you've got your like daily stand-ups, you've got, you know, sprints, epics, user stories, and so on, story points. I mean, I think a lot of that stuff is just, I think it gets in the way. It's just my personal opinion, but what we're seeing, I get there's fewer people that are saying, you know, hey, we're agile, can Rave Tree help us with our agile project management methodology? And the answer there is yes, but we don't hear that as much anymore. It's mostly they're not even really talking about methodologies, they're just, they just are waterfall, and they don't really think of it that way, though.
Chris DuBois 24:10
Interesting. Yeah, because I imagine, like, if I was an agency working with software companies that I would want to align with, like an agile type play, so that it's like we're speaking the same language as we're going through, and so
Speaker 1 24:24
that's true. In fact, we there was an agency that, that, that did they sold story points, so like instead of hours, like, hey, you can buy, you know, 20 hours of work, you know, per week, or whatever, they would sell story points, and I thought that was kind of weird. I guess you know their customers were, you know, software companies, but
Chris DuBois 24:47
right,
Speaker 1 24:48
yeah. So,
Chris DuBois 24:50
yeah, that's interesting. I mean, it makes sense, right? Like, speak and sell to what they already know.
Speaker 1 24:57
Yeah, it's a little bit ambiguous, you know, yeah. What do story points mean, and different people think of it in different ways, but yeah,
Chris DuBois 25:09
right, yeah, that's
Speaker 1 25:11
strange terminology, or like, you know, t-shirt sizes instead of story points, you know, there's like this is an extra large epic, or you know, whatever, whatever that means. I mean, for me personally, I just, I like hours because it's unambiguous,
Chris DuBois 25:27
like
Speaker 1 25:28
it's gonna, it's gonna be 10 hours, like I know what that is, right? But I still, I still like some of the agile concepts. I think it, in just like a general sense, it makes it makes sense to be Agile, lowercase A, you know, not necessarily capital A, with you know all the rituals, but yeah, it's everybody's
Chris DuBois 25:55
no one, I think with like the tools available today to be able to help us get work done. It's like at Agile, like being able to line up sprints and just continuously work on like a single focus at a time, like just seems to make more sense right now. And maybe I'm, I'm sure people could disagree, like, well, no, now I can do tons of different things in the same amount of time. Yeah,
Speaker 1 26:21
I think sometimes it comes down to just like the terminology, like a company might be agile and they're doing sprints, but they don't call it that, they don't even, they might not even be aware of the terminology, that there is this methodology called agile, but that they're behaving as if they are, the terminology is less important. The mindset is, I think, what's more important. So, you can have an agile mindset and operate in a what might be considered a more traditional waterfall workflow, you know, again with Gantt charts and dependencies, and so on, because dependencies, I mean, it's not to say that, like, you can't have dependencies if you're doing agile, and, but I think sometimes people view it that way, and in an agency setting, the truth of the matter is, there are a lot of dependencies, you know, a lot of this depends on something getting done before, you know, maybe it's a design or whatever, so yeah, the the terminology terminology, in my opinion, doesn't matter as much. It's just the mindset,
Chris DuBois 27:27
right? Yeah, that's.. I like anytime I'm looking at actually executing something, I kind of break, break it down by mindset, skill set, tool set, and like that's the order we should flow in. So, like, let's make sure we're thinking about this, right? Then let's make sure we have the actual skills to do it, and then what tools can help us do all of this faster?
Speaker 1 27:45
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, like the,
Chris DuBois 27:47
yeah, hasn't, hasn't failed me yet, but we'll see. I'm sure could just be right around the corner, yeah. Cheers. So, as I guess, what is like a belief that you have for how agency should operate, that like founders push back on, like it's one of the early things that they're just, they're super hesitant to execute, but you're like, man, if you just did this, like, your life would be so much easier,
Speaker 1 28:16
you know, that's a, that's a good question, I can't think of a good answer right off hand, I you know, beyond maybe what I touched on earlier, which is just like have like enforce what what you want to get out of the tool and communicate why they need to use whatever tool in order to get the data that management needs. Yeah, I guess I just don't have a great answer for that one, to be honest.
Chris DuBois 28:49
Yeah, I guess if I could potentially even reframe your advice, tell me if it's wrong. But even just slowing down to be more intentional about how you're actually using the tools. I think everyone has fallen into this. I don't know if it's from hustle culture or what. It's like everyone wants to move very fast, so I get the tool up. Let's get going, like get the work work in, right? Let's just keep moving, versus like, all right, we're actually going to roll this out over a month or maybe 60 days. We're going to make sure that every step that we're taking is deliberate, so that once we do hit the like the sprint portion, we're good. We have no questions, like everybody's on the same page. The system is refined. Yeah, I guess I don't know if that lines up.
Speaker 1 29:30
Yeah, well, I think that goes along. Yeah, it's kind of, you know, maybe similar to what I was trying to say, but probably couldn't get it out as well as you did. But yeah, just, you know, it goes back to communication, you know, under like, why, what are we doing? Why are we doing it? Everyone needs to understand that, and then people can go off and do their thing, if they just go off and do their thing, and everyone's running around scrambling, and we have seen agencies like that, they're just like, they have so much work, they have, like, you know, they've like. 5010 minute things that they have to do every day, and then it's just, you can't remember all of it, and you're it's hard to really like have a just to know like in what direction you should be headed. It's
Chris DuBois 30:15
right, yeah, yeah, because I think a lot of people do fall into that, like the move fast and break things kind of culture, but even if you're going to do that, like, it requires you slowing down enough to be able to document what you're breaking, so that you can make sure, like, like you're testing things as you go, but to run a test, you have to have a hypothesis, right? You have to have, like, the criteria to decide, is this, is this conclusive, like, is it a failure or what, and yeah, I think that gets missed a lot, like people, it's like they're building kind of by accident rather than intentionally, and so
Speaker 1 30:53
yeah, and of course that mindset, you know, came from software developers, where I think maybe that makes more sense than in an agency setting. I mean,
Chris DuBois 31:04
I agree,
Speaker 1 31:04
it still makes sense sometimes, but yeah, I mean, if you're, if you're a, you know, product, like if you're like Ravetry, and you're just building this one thing, then maybe you can take that approach, but when you're building something that you've been asked to build for some by someone else, then you know, you, you kind of need to be a little more careful with, with how you're moving. Yeah.
Chris DuBois 31:28
Okay, I've got two more questions for you, as we, we bring this one home, with the first being, what book you recommend every agency owner should read.
Speaker 1 31:39
Yeah, so there's probably better people to ask that question, but I'll tell you a book that I did read, and I've got it here on my desk, and I just, I read it maybe a couple months ago. It's called Get to the Top of Google. It's like an SEO book, but it was about with all the AI capabilities, how you can still sort of be found with, you know, with all the new AI tools and LLM models that are out there. So, I got a lot out of that book. Now, you know, I am not a marketing professional, so you know, but I imagine there's some nuggets in there that people who are marketing professionals could still find useful, so
Chris DuBois 32:24
yeah, yeah, it's still like the wild west for like that topic, and so I think even across all the like SEO agencies I work with, they're like, we don't know, like we're still guessing and trying to figure things out, so probably worth a read for everybody.
Speaker 1 32:40
Yeah, it's crazy how fast it's evolving, but yeah, it still seems to be a bit of a mystery. There's all kinds of techniques people have that seem to make sense, and I guess time will tell. I mean, we'll probably look back at this time in five years and it'll be obvious, you know, but right now it's not so obvious.
Chris DuBois 32:59
Yeah, last question for you is, where can everyone find you?
Speaker 1 33:06
So you can, if you're, if you mean me, as in
Chris DuBois 33:11
Ravet, both,
Speaker 1 33:11
then yeah, ravettree.com you know, we're, we're the, in my humble opinion, the world's best agency work management platform. We've got more capabilities, yet we're very easy to use than pretty much every other tool out there. So, yeah, ravettree.com As far as me personally, I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn. You know, I'm trying to be more active making posts when I feel like I've got something useful to say, but otherwise I'm not too active on social media. I don't do, you know, X or anything like that. I'm basically just LinkedIn, is probably about it for me. Yeah,
Chris DuBois 33:52
your LinkedIn approach is probably still 100 times better than most of the people who are just trying to pump stuff out with AI, so that's a
Speaker 1 33:59
maybe I
Chris DuBois 34:00
Be awesome, Davidson. Thanks for thanks for joining.
Speaker 1 34:05
Yeah, well, Chris, yeah, thanks for having me. This has been fun,
Chris DuBois 34:09
awesome. Bye. That's the show, everyone. You can leave a rating and review, or you can do something that benefits you. Click the link in the show notes to subscribe to Agency Forward on Substack. You'll get weekly content, resources, and links from around the internet to help you drive your agency forward.
Unknown Speaker 34:55
You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai