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"If leaders are willing to be vulnerable and listen to their employees.. those are cultures which empower everyone to feel safe and to bring their whole selves to work... A lot of leaders are still trying to hide behind stuff.. and they are not sleeping well at night. The most peaceful place for a leader to be is to have stated values and then can stand in the spotlight of those values."
While Rethink Culture is relaxing on summer holidays, we thought we'd bring you one of the podcast classics - How to Craft Company Values - with Will Scott, founder of Culture Fix Academy, entrepreneur, published author, servant leader, father and triathlete.
Will has worked with 10s of companies to transform them into culture-first workplaces. He talks about creating your values bottom-up, how to "notice and nominate" to reinforce values in the company using stories, how often to revise values, and how he started playing with values and culture as a young child in his treehouse.
The podcast is produced by Rethink Culture (rethinkculture.co). Our Culture Health Check helps you turn your culture into a competitive advantage, with data. Visit rethinkculture.co to see how you can create a healthier culture at your company.
While Rethink Culture is relaxing on summer holidays, we thought we'd bring you one of the podcast classics - How to Craft Company Values - with Will Scott, founder of Culture Fix Academy, entrepreneur, published author, servant leader, father and triathlete.
Will has worked with 10s of companies to transform them into culture-first workplaces. He talks about creating your values bottom-up, how to "notice and nominate" to reinforce values in the company using stories, how often to revise values, and how he started playing with values and culture as a young child in his treehouse.
The podcast is produced by Rethink Culture (rethinkculture.co). Our Culture Health Check helps you turn your culture into a competitive advantage, with data. Visit rethinkculture.co to see how you can create a healthier culture at your company.
Creators & Guests
What is Rethink Culture?
Rethink Culture is the podcast that shines the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. Virtually all of the business leaders who make headlines today do so because of their company performance. Yet, the people and the culture of a company is at least as important as its performance. It's time that we shine the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture and are putting people and culture at the forefront.
00:00:12:07 - 00:00:40:20
Andreas
Good afternoon, good morning. Good evening. Wherever you are. Welcome to Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on business leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. My name is Andreas Konstantinou, and I'm your host. And I'm an entrepreneur with a passion for reinventing culture. With me today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Will Scott. So Will is many things.
00:00:40:20 - 00:01:18:21
Andreas
He's an entrepreneur, he's a published author. He's a servant leader, a father, a triathlete, and an international citizen. So let me tell you a bit about Will before he introduces himself. So as an entrepreneur, he grew two software companies before founding his current business, the Culture Fix Academy, which is a collective of culture coaches. He is sought after for his culture fix, which is a process, it's a process over nine deeds, as he calls them, in 90 days, for helping companies reinvent their core values and culture.
00:01:18:23 - 00:01:55:16
Andreas
He also published a lot of his thoughts and experiences about culture fixing in the book with the same name, Culture Fix. He's also spending a lot of time as a servant leader. He's the current president and founding member of EO, that's Entrepreneur's Organization, in Wisconsin, and he's also an accelerator trainer and chair. He's a proud father of Sam and Chloe and, born in Zambia, lived in six countries, very international, based in the US in the last few years.
00:01:55:16 - 00:02:14:18
Andreas
And he's graciously woken up very early today at 6 a.m., where Will's based, and he's also an athlete and completes several triathlons a year, so hats off. Please welcome Will Scott.
00:02:14:20 - 00:02:20:14
Will
Wow. Thank you, Andreas. That's quite the introduction.
00:02:20:16 - 00:02:21:15
Andreas
So welcome to our podcast.
00:02:21:19 - 00:02:23:24
Will
Let's build up some high expectations there.
00:02:23:26 - 00:02:45:09
Andreas
Really looking forward to that. So tell us about yourself and like how you started out maybe in life as a child and the experiences that led you to work on this topic of culture with a capital C.
00:02:45:12 - 00:03:01:10
Will
Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for that invitation to, to sort of talk about how a story that I like to tell from when I was ten years old that links right up to the work that I'm, that I'm doing today.
00:03:01:13 - 00:03:25:09
Will
Six decades later. Well, five decades later, I suppose. But yes, as you said, I was born and raised in Zambia. And, one of the things I used to love doing as a boy was building clubhouses, all kinds of clubhouses, especially treehouses and something would make me hesitate, Andreas, before I invited friends into my treehouse.
00:03:25:11 - 00:03:55:26
Will
It was so important to me. I'd lovingly built the place, and I really cared about the experience that people were going to have there. And so what I would do is I put up some rules on the side of the tree house, rules like be nice to each other. And my thinking there, my little sort of ten year old self was was, you know, I had these little fears like, oh, what if people don't have a good time in the treehouse or they don't want to come back or they spoil, you know, the feeling in were in the treehouse by by being mean to each other.
00:03:55:28 - 00:04:35:09
Will
And that's why I put rules up, you see. And I realized when I started doing this work some decades later, when I'm helping companies put core values on their walls, but importantly, making sure those values are not just empty words on the wall, but they are alive and thriving in the hearts and minds of the population in that organization, such that they can use them and use the power of values to create the environment that they want and to lead from a place where the behaviors are such that positive outcomes happen and people feel safe.
00:04:35:11 - 00:05:01:15
Will
They feel, creative and they feel their best selves and they can really live, you know, a holistic life of of joy and meaning. And so taking that sort of theory back to the tree house, if ever my friends were, you know, arguing or fighting, and I can remember one very specific time when Stewart and Diagora were actually, arguing about who should light the fire.
00:05:01:17 - 00:05:28:09
Will
I just said, hey, guys, remember we all agreed and then point to the words on the wall to be nice to each other, and they would just say, oh yeah, sorry, Will, rules of the clubhouse, you know, they just got it. I wasn't bossy or an asshole. It was just the rules. And, it worked. You know, it helped us maintain a nice environment for everybody.
00:05:28:12 - 00:05:51:22
Andreas
And I think this is so underutilized today, Andreas, in the workplace. And this is where I realize my work comes from. I know most companies by now have figured out they need to have core values. Very few of them have a valued culture. And that's why with the Culture Fix, we're about going from simply having core values to truly having a valued culture.
00:05:51:24 - 00:06:19:24
Will
And we've figured out the some things that you can do to make sure that when you have values, they are actually alive and thriving and being used. It's a very, very low investment for the business leaders. And yet there's a massively high return. And we see this all the time. We measure it. We measure before and after and we see these, these big, you know, 30 point plus improvements in in the culture.
00:06:19:27 - 00:06:28:19
Will
It's a long answer, Andreas, but thank you. It kind of tees up our conversation around, you know, what we're talking about today.
00:06:28:22 - 00:06:52:06
Andreas
So how did you go from like the vision of that communal, feelgood, respectful behavior in the tree house to like the journey of founding two software companies and then choosing to focus on culture? So how was that journey for you?
00:06:52:08 - 00:07:18:02
Will
Yeah, yeah, well, a bit like it happened naturally for me in the tree house, I think I was naturally, I'm naturally a people person and I naturally cared about how people felt, you know, and, you know, how often these, these values, you know, values, Andreas, are voids. They're voids that we have inside us that are so deep that we can't get enough of them.
00:07:18:02 - 00:07:49:07
Will
That's why we value it. Right? It's kind of, an antithesis of what you might think. But so clearly I had voids where it was, which, which were, come from experiences in my upbringing, you see, that mean I cared about how people feel in organizations that I'm lead, that I'm leading. And, you know, funny thing, I remember in my 30s, realizing that, you know, my mission in life, my mission is to create environments where people thrive.
00:07:49:09 - 00:08:11:08
Will
And funnily enough, Simon Sinek actually in a conversation with him, helped me finish that statement because I said, hey, Simon, I like to create environments where people thrive. And of course he said, why? The "why" guy said, why? And I was able to, to immediately respond with, oh, you know. Yeah. So they can be the best that they can be.
00:08:11:10 - 00:08:39:16
Will
And so, you know, I, I think, you know, a lot of us are striving to find our purpose. And luckily for me, you know, some events in my life have helped me, you know, understand my purpose, understand my, you know, my gift to the world. And so here I am doing this, this, this joyful, noble work of helping organizations with their culture and changing the environment and the lives for so many people.
00:08:39:18 - 00:09:11:06
Will
And it's it's naturally, you know, who I am. So you mentioned the software companies. I'm not technical myself. I don't write code, but, I was really more the process person. I would solve business problems with processes, and then my team would sort of enable that with, with code that that led to technical solutions. And so that really meant that my focus as a leader was on the people side of the business.
00:09:11:08 - 00:09:26:04
Andreas
That's unusual, actually, because most founders are like the engineers or the tech, the technical experts, you know, whether it's the cooks or the carpenters or what have you. But you are the people person who's started the business, right?
00:09:26:06 - 00:09:41:00
Will
Yes. Well, so I should say that, in the case of the supply chain software company, I started that together with, my brother and another, chap who was the technical.
00:09:41:00 - 00:10:07:17
Will
He was the software guru behind it all. And in the case of the mobile app development company, I actually bought into a company that had been started by by a technical visionary. And if you know the sort of EOS speak of visionary and integrator. When I bought into that company, I took the integrator role and together and he was he was brilliant when it came to technical solutions and to code and together we did create rocket fuel.
00:10:07:21 - 00:10:28:07
Will
You know, we grew a company, but the company very quickly. And it had actually been on a slow decline when I joined, Alex, at that company, but together, and once I brought my focus on culture, we quickly turned and we grew very quickly for the next six years until I exited that company. Yeah.
00:10:28:09 - 00:10:41:20
Andreas
So moving to like, where you are today with Culture Fix, I understand it's like, I think you called it a coaching system where you you coach the coaches, right?
00:10:41:23 - 00:10:42:15
Will
Yeah.
00:10:42:17 - 00:10:48:20
Andreas
And, well, what, so, like. Go ahead.
00:10:48:22 - 00:11:10:03
Will
So Andreas, that began because once I, exited, the mobile app company in 2016, friends who had seen what I'd been doing with culture at my company, and that's what I was sort of more passionately writing blogs about and talking about, they asked, hey, well, could you come and help me with my culture?
00:11:10:05 - 00:11:28:25
Will
You know, there's a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of business leaders don't like the way it feels in their own company, after a few years, usually because of some of the people they hired. And, so I would get, you know, I got a number of requests to help people and that's when I realized, oh, yeah.
00:11:28:27 - 00:11:53:16
Will
People have values. They don't have a valued culture. In fact, my research has shown that less than half of all employees can name less than half the values, and therefore the values have very little value. Right? If you do the math on that. So, there's a huge opportunity there. And that's when I decided, okay, I believe there is a system here, there's a framework.
00:11:53:18 - 00:12:23:16
Will
And so I wrote the 9 Deeds in 90 Days, bring your cultural life, make it thrive, and use it to drive performance, with all the things that are aspects that are in the Culture Fix book. And now my second book, The Gift of Culture. And, so I was consulting myself and then after a while I thought, you know, this there's something that's working here, and I would like to get this out to a greater, you know, proportion of the world and grow this more quickly.
00:12:23:18 - 00:12:58:07
Will
And that's when I adopted the methodology of having coaches become members of the Culture Fix Academy, so they could then take this, the Culture Fix to their clients. And, very quickly, you know, got to, 25 coaches, actually, Andreas, now, and in 12 months. And it was a common thing. Coaches are doing this great work going into usually you know, SMEs, small and medium enterprises, and they've got solutions or tools that they're bringing.
00:12:58:09 - 00:13:31:27
Will
But there aren't a lot of codified frameworks, culture solutions. So they love it. And I call it a collective of, of culture coaches. And we meet every week, on on Zoom and share best practice. And now, you know, they're taking it to, to their organizations. And it's a very exciting time for me and my business to see, to see this starting to happen. I had no idea, you know, that there was this this need in the world.
00:13:31:29 - 00:13:47:23
Andreas
Do you find that values is the domain of HR, or of CEOs like and like, what's your experience and how do you feel it should be like, who's concern is it?
00:13:47:25 - 00:13:56:06
Will
Yeah. Thank you. So I do believe that our work at the Culture Fix is actually helping leaders to lead with values.
00:13:56:08 - 00:14:16:00
Will
We're just using this term culture that people sort of understand to get that. But I and and you're... leading with values is very important that that is coming from the leaders of the company. And so we have a you know, we have an enormous amount of work to do on that side without actually getting into HR.
00:14:16:01 - 00:15:01:02
Will
So the Culture Fix, we don't really do HR. We don't write handbooks and that sort of thing. We are about, first of all, bringing a cultural definition for that organization. And even if they've got core values, sometimes they didn't come about it in a very, you know, discerning and native way that really taps the DNA of the organization. So we're very intentional about about uncovering with surveys and interviews, not just of the employees, by the way, Andreas, but all the stakeholders, because I believe that leaders, you know, CEOs and company leaders, they're not just leading the company, they're leading a culture which is a far more grandiose and bigger and and more responsibility too.
00:15:01:05 - 00:15:44:09
Will
When our employees go home, those values spread to to everyone they're touching. What about our vendors upstream and our customers downstream, our shareholders, you know, our investors. If we can lead with values across all of those different stakeholders, magic happens. And I'm excited to be getting into a project. I don't know if I'll have time to talk about it today, but in a non corporate setting, a school district, a rural school district in Indiana, Andreas, through one of my coaches who is active in that, in that geography and in the school system has asked for health and education, you know, can really use this.
00:15:44:11 - 00:16:03:13
Will
So I'm going to be working with not just the teachers, which was the obvious thing for the superintendent. I'm going to involve the children at that school. The parents and the board of directors. You see, it's a community thing. And together we're going to establish values, which I believe, and then then train them how to lead with those values.
00:16:03:13 - 00:16:23:06
Will
And I believe that's going to make a very big difference for for the challenges that education faces today. Teachers are burned out post Covid, but some of the behaviors in the schools are very disrespectful and and challenging. And, so I'm looking forward to to making a difference there.
00:16:23:06 - 00:16:28:18
Andreas
That, that that could very well be a pioneering project.
00:16:28:20 - 00:16:56:04
Andreas
I was thinking of of something else you mentioned, investors like there are some cases where companies have been vilified for their culture, like WeWork or like, what was the other one? Uber, of course. Do you find investors care for, like, the companies they invest in and what values they uphold? Or are they just
00:16:56:04 - 00:16:56:21
Will
Well,
00:16:56:21 - 00:16:57:04
Andreas
you know,
00:16:57:09 - 00:16:57:19
Will
yeah.
00:16:57:19 - 00:17:01:12
Andreas
buy into them and find out.
00:17:01:14 - 00:17:25:00
Will
So I think your question is almost leading, isn't it? It's almost insinuating probably the real situation, which is that, investors are known for not caring about the environment and the way people feel in the company and really just caring about, of course, the, you know, the shareholder value that's created and the growth rate.
00:17:25:02 - 00:17:50:08
Will
And, but I believe that is absolutely changing, Andreas. And if it isn't changing now, I can confidently predict that in the future this is going to increasingly matter more and more. And I think it's already happening today. And there's some beautiful examples, you know, like, the founder of Patagonia and what he just did recently. Where do people want to work?
00:17:50:09 - 00:18:54:22
Will
Where do the millennials and the Gen Zs want to work? They want to work in companies that do care about the purpose and meaning of the company. They do want to work for companies that are not harming the planet. And, and I think enlightened board members and even where investors are invested in a company, if they trust the CEO and the CEO is caring about those things, the sorts of things that conscious capitalism teaches, then, actually what happens in conscious, in consciously capital (is that a thing?) companies, what you see is not only a great place to work that is caring, but also very high financial performance, actually even higher than companies that are simply focused on profits and growth. So it's coming and and the leaders that are going to benefit from this and the investors are going to benefit eventually will be ones that care.
00:18:54:24 - 00:19:27:18
Andreas
It's a very interesting topic of discussion. We of course, have heard of, culture eats strategy for breakfast. And we, we know that if employees are disengaged, this incentivized slacking or just not there, your business is not going to be efficient. But.
00:19:27:20 - 00:20:02:23
Andreas
I personally think is not just a question of performance. I think it's more if you enjoy what you do, is gonna look like work to others, but it's gonna look like fun to you, and you're going to be putting much more of your potential in your work, and you are going to be reverberating that positivity and shining as a result of finding fulfillment as an employee.
00:20:02:25 - 00:20:31:17
Andreas
So there's a lot of intangibles there. And I don't know if the tools we have today, and I'm just thinking out loud here, like Glassdoor or similar sites, I don't know if like there is enough transparency and visibility and awareness, into the culture of companies. In the same way there is visibility into the financial performance of public companies.
00:20:31:19 - 00:21:00:02
Andreas
And, you know, there is obviously visibility into this company raising X and that company raising Y and that company going public. So there is plenty of visibility on performance. But when we look at, you know, which company should be out there and which leaders should be showcased and elevated in the public eye for running these amazing cultures where people feel empowered and engaged.
00:21:00:02 - 00:21:08:03
Andreas
And so on. I don't know if there's enough of that transparency and awareness. I don't know what your thoughts are.
00:21:08:06 - 00:21:18:16
Will
No, I, I completely agree with that. I dream, Andreas, one day of, you know, I don't know if you know J.D. Power and how they rate companies on quality.
00:21:18:19 - 00:21:18:26
Andreas
Yeah.
00:21:18:26 - 00:21:24:17
Will
I would love one day to have a system that rates companies on their culture.
00:21:24:19 - 00:21:49:21
Will
And how do you do that? Well, one way is you would you would write them on do they act in concert with their stated values. And so many companies do not. One of my favorite games to play, Andreas, whenever I hear a corporate scandal is, oh, I wonder what their core values are. And I always know, before I go there what their core values are going to say.
00:21:49:23 - 00:22:36:18
Will
And there's so many examples of this. I've written blogs about, you mentioned Uber, Wells Fargo, Boeing, all kinds of examples of companies. Those are sort of negative stories, but they're also very positive stories that have been about in terms of McDonald's and Starbucks, where these companies clearly the values they chose to put on the walls and their mission and purpose were were, you know, ideals that they, by their operations, just stomp all over. And employees, however great a job we do as leaders of of describing the culture and leading with that, employees will follow the two the two things that that are natural to humans, and that is the examples that are set by the leaders and the incentives that are in place.
00:22:36:20 - 00:22:51:11
Will
So part of having a great culture is to have leaders that absolutely walk the talk of the stated values of the company and their incentives in place encourage compliance with those values.
00:22:51:13 - 00:23:16:17
Will
And, yeah. So there's there's so many examples and I think one way to change that, Andreas, to change the challenge that you just posed is for leaders to be not only very transparent with their finances, but to be transparent with themselves. How do leaders do that? Of course, it's through being vulnerable. If they are willing to be vulnerable and willing to listen to their employees.
00:23:16:19 - 00:23:36:16
Will
For example, I always like to do a survey and I find some some CEOs don't want to do the survey because they actually are afraid to hear what the employees are gonna say about their organization. That's that's ludicrous, isn't it? But leaders that are really willing to listen, that are ready to show their weaknesses, their mistakes, to be vulnerable.
00:23:36:18 - 00:24:02:23
Will
Those are cultures which empower everybody to feel safe and to be their best, bring their best selves to the workplace and not really have this work and home life, but just one life. So yes, thank you for that question. And there are ways to do that. And again, the best leaders are absolutely transparent about the culture as they are transparent about the, the, the finances.
00:24:02:29 - 00:24:20:27
Will
And when something happens, they immediately, you know, are open about that issue too. And of course, that's better. They're not trying to hide issues, to be open and, you know, come out with press statements and all that sort of thing and be willing to stand behind a microphone.
00:24:20:27 - 00:24:48:24
Will
And, you know, something that I think leaders misses. A lot of leaders are still trying to hide behind stuff, but I think they're stressed and they're tense and they're not sleeping well at night. The most peaceful place for a leader to be is to have stated values which really say, this is who I am, and then can stand in the spotlight of those values. I think that's a really peaceful place to be, and it's great for all the people around you.
00:24:48:26 - 00:24:56:18
Andreas
I'm going to put that on a poster. I liked, I very much liked your quote. I'm going to quote you. So...
00:24:56:20 - 00:24:58:13
Will
Please. Yeah.
00:24:58:15 - 00:25:12:23
Andreas
In the case of values. Right. I mean, you mentioned earlier about companies not standing up to their values. The name of Enron came came to my mind who whose value was integrity, right? Of all companies.
00:25:12:23 - 00:25:13:25
Will
Yeah. Yes.
00:25:13:27 - 00:25:42:24
Andreas
And. I've always struggled in my business. How do you bring these values to life? Like. In in my business, in Slash Data, we created a set of behaviors next to each value. So we have seven values and a set of behaviors. So what does like transparency mean? It means like we run postmortems.
00:25:42:26 - 00:26:17:12
Andreas
It means that we are open about all the information, you know, sales costs, whatever, except for salaries and everything is public. So we give out examples of behaviors for each of the values. How do you work, with your clients when you want to bring these values to life so that they are then internalized, metabolized, adopted by the staff?
00:26:17:15 - 00:26:41:02
Will
Yes. Well, one of the most important things that we have found there is to have a notice and nominate scheme where one member of the population, one employee, can nominate another employee when they saw them committing a core value, and then have them at your at your weekly town hall. And hopefully, hopefully companies are meeting kind of weekly now.
00:26:41:05 - 00:27:08:12
Will
Not monthly because 12 touches a year is not enough. I don't think if you really want to instill values in people, you need to have 52 or at least 50 touches a year. Right? And so a notice and nominate scheme. And then at that town hall, you know, you ask Fred to tell the story about how they caught Mary committing a core value and what that meant and how it made them feel.
00:27:08:14 - 00:27:41:12
Will
That story is what people will remember. And that is a great example and memorializes that value. And people go, oh, that's what that value looks like. So that's on the sort of the, that's the easy one, the notice and nominate where we give a shout out, right? But then I also encourage in sort of culture 2.0, more mature cultures, is to step into catch the catch and correct that we teach, where we're actually catching and correcting when when somebody is not behaving in alignment with the value.
00:27:41:15 - 00:27:59:24
Will
So I love what you did at your company, Andreas, where you had values. And then, you had descriptive behaviors that helped them know what do we mean by that value here? But then there's notice and nominate and catch and correct. And the catch and correct takes takes some skill. But that sort of comes at the end of our Culture Fix process.
00:27:59:26 - 00:28:22:06
Will
And that's why it's so important to get at the beginning of the process is to get the the words right. Because if we're all providing a language that employees can use easily to catch and correct, just like I did in my treehouse. Hey everybody, remember we all agreed to be nice to each other. Oh, yeah. You know, sorry.
00:28:22:08 - 00:28:43:01
Will
And what's beautiful about that is, Andreas, if I challenge you, that can look like a conflict between me and you. But if I call both of us to a higher standard like a compass, a true north, and I like to believe that there's a poster on the wall for this, then it's a much more of a, oh, yeah, that's right.
00:28:43:01 - 00:29:05:29
Will
That's kind of that's kind of our that's our code of conduct. Those are our values. And so it's really important that we help people have that. Because the example I like to give is let's say I'm in a meeting, I have an idea. And somebody, the kind of bully in the room, sort of shuts down my idea or makes me feel dumb or stupid for that.
00:29:06:01 - 00:29:35:09
Will
And if we've got a value of, you know, we listen to understand or, you know, teamwork or something, then I can then I want to feel empowered. Even if I'm an introvert and it's hard for me, I want to be able to say to that person after the meeting, hey, can I just take your side and just talk to you and do this by the poster and say, listen, one of our values is this and the way you just made me feel in there was, it didn't feel like that was in concert with that.
00:29:35:11 - 00:29:51:09
Will
And if I didn't say something to you, there's a danger that I'm not going to bring my ideas next time because you're just going to shut me down. And that's not a value that we have here. So isn't that fantastic, Andreas, if I can do that without going to my boss? Most companies, I got to go to my boss and complain.
00:29:51:16 - 00:30:12:01
Will
And they go to their boss and complain. And we have this chain of complaints going around instead of just two humans addressing a difficult conversation with the values. And this is what I mean about people have values, but they are not using them in that way. Most of them don't even know the company's values.
00:30:12:04 - 00:30:19:02
Andreas
So how do you, like, if you have a value that's not self-explanatory, you have teamwork.
00:30:19:02 - 00:30:45:13
Andreas
Or if you have something like do what's right. You know, how do you add color to that so that the staff can have a mutually agreed understanding, like a completely intuitive understanding of what the value means, what behaviors are allowed and what behaviors are not according to that value?
00:30:45:15 - 00:30:50:17
Will
Well, so in your example there of, you know, do the right thing.
00:30:50:19 - 00:31:11:18
Will
It is, you know, do the right thing is great. But of course we can go a step further with that with, let's say, three bullets underneath do the right thing or with descriptive behaviors that say what we mean by that. That's one thing that helps. Now, we've already embellished or given more context to the value with those descriptive behaviors.
00:31:11:20 - 00:31:39:14
Will
But then if we start having notice and nominate schemes, where we're telling the stories about when that value happens and we capture all of those, before long, we've got, you know, in our in the annals of our of our history, now, we've got all these stories that talk about and that exemplify what we mean by that. And they're happening live in our town halls and being talked about all the time.
00:31:39:16 - 00:31:59:15
Will
That's that's a great way to create a culture which, you know, this is this is not all science. I mean, as you talked about, I like to say that, you know, strategy is to thought as culture is to feelings. And if we're all strategy and thought in a business, then we're ignoring what it's like, what it is to be human.
00:31:59:18 - 00:32:19:23
Will
And so humans communicate with words, and words are really important. And then use stories to codify those, those words, those values that are coming through that. And there's one other thing that I'd like to make on this. You know, it's not just about one value. You said you have 7, Andreas. So it's about the way the values work together.
00:32:19:26 - 00:32:51:25
Will
So you build up this picture, here's the value, here's the descriptive behaviors, here's the other values and the other descriptive behaviors. Here's the stories that support all of that. And before long you've got a culture which everybody, you know, gets and feels and understands and we can measure them. They are also ways we have something called the core score, Andreas, to measure the way employees and associates align with the values. And then we can give them feedback on that based on the, on the, on those values.
00:32:52:01 - 00:33:17:10
Will
And give them real examples about from stories where we saw them either behaving in concert or in opposition to the values. So do all these things, and these are all in the Culture Fix. And then we really can codify culture and have it such that the members love where they work, they love who they work with, and they have purpose and meaning to their work, which we haven't really talked about yet.
00:33:17:13 - 00:33:41:04
Will
But, when, when you when you combine, when you have the values that help people enjoy the present, today, and then you have a purpose, that is something exciting about the difference we make for the world, the goodness we do for the world that's in the future, then I think there's some magic there too, for, for for a culture.
00:33:41:07 - 00:33:59:19
Andreas
So as you as as as as people build this heritage or legacy of culture within their business by, did you call it naming and I think you called it citing.
00:33:59:19 - 00:34:03:10
Will
Notice and nominate. Notice and nominate. Yeah.
00:34:03:13 - 00:34:11:02
Andreas
But you have a body of culture that's building up. To me, that sounds like the culture is itself an organism.
00:34:11:05 - 00:34:50:02
Andreas
It's living. And as I'm guessing new people come in, their perception of culture might be changing or might be slightly different. So this is like a growing body of stories of what culture is like, which to me reminds me that values is not what some people think it's set in stone. Like, define the values and they're there forever, but like Amazon does, where they review their culture or their values annually.
00:34:50:05 - 00:35:13:24
Andreas
I think it's, you've captured that perfectly, that in my mind, this is like a living organism of values, which which the values are itself are living. Does that need at some point to be checked or aligned or realigned in some way?
00:35:14:12 - 00:35:21:01
Will
I love it. And the answer is, of course, Andreas, is yes. Now, you know, pick a time frame.
00:35:21:01 - 00:35:47:10
Will
But I'd like to think that values are not reviewed every year, just in my opinion, every every 3 to 5 years? Perhaps. Yes. But there are certainly times when it's a good time to refresh or revisit the values. And I've actually done this in my own career. At one point I stepped away from the supply chain software company and put a managing director in place, and after some time the business also made a pivot.
00:35:47:13 - 00:36:15:21
Will
So by the time the CEO is changed, most of the employees have changed. The business has pivoted. It's probably time for, to revisit the values. And I don't say we throw them out and start again, but a lot of our work is just that, Andreas, is refreshing the values and we keep the best of that really is true and exists, and we make them a little bit more, memorable and catchy and easy to use in everyday language.
00:36:15:23 - 00:36:39:04
Will
And then do do the rest of the things that we talked about. So yes, I do believe there are times when it's appropriate to do that. And, I don't know, it seems to happen a lot when companies are doing like moving into a new office or, you know, it's sort of inflections in the company's, growth. And it can be really energizing, to do it.
00:36:39:06 - 00:37:04:18
Will
Unlike a lot of, people that that teach culture where they say values should be discerned by the leaders and then rolled out to everybody, which I think is crazy. How about, you know, involving the whole population in this, in the refresh? And then everybody feels like they contributed, everybody feels brought in, and everybody believes that these really are the values of us.
00:37:04:18 - 00:37:16:26
Will
They recognize themselves in those. And that is how you can get a little magic upturn in in your company's trajectory.
00:37:16:28 - 00:37:35:28
Andreas
And how do you kind of help bubble up those values or those ideas that come from like the ecosystem or you mentioned the employees, the suppliers, the customers, like the whole circle around the company? How do you help these values bubble up?
00:37:35:28 - 00:37:43:24
Andreas
And like, how do these crystallize into just a few values at the very top?
00:37:43:27 - 00:38:01:15
Will
Yes, well done, Andreas, it's a really, really, insightful question. Well, the answer is, and by the way, in my second book, The Culture Fix, sorry, The Gift of Culture, we actually lay out all the survey questions that we asked the different stakeholders, and we talk.
00:38:01:17 - 00:38:30:17
Will
And that's a fable. That's a story of a coach helping a CEO transform the culture in their company. And at the same time, the CEO is transformed. It's really cool. But, the answer is we survey those different populations, right? Which which take doesn't take long at all. We also do some interviews of those different, of a smaller number, of course, of those different stakeholders.
00:38:30:19 - 00:38:58:09
Will
And then we've got and then we use tools that will, that will, show word clouds. Right? And it'll show what words, what values across all those different, that ecosystem, are actually bubbling to the top to use your, your, your words there. Excuse me. And then we, then we will start building mind maps of the for the values and for the descriptive behaviors coming off those values.
00:38:58:12 - 00:39:25:07
Will
And then we go through a sort of messy, creative, iterative process of boiling those down to something that is a very tight description of the culture. But but the end result is partly about that. And it, and of course it wasn't dreamt up. It came by asking, who are we? What makes us who we are, what makes us great?
00:39:25:09 - 00:39:46:21
Will
And, so it's partly the outcome that comes from a very genuine process in place, but it's also the journey of getting there, you know, of, of testing these mind maps with folks. Hey, what do you like? What don't you like? What feels like it really is us? What? What makes us different? What what what is our, you know, all those kinds of questions.
00:39:46:24 - 00:40:13:04
Will
And so that's how we boil it down. That's how we involve everybody. But end up with something that is, you know, unique. I like to think that those values are going to be the only company in the world with those values when we're finished, and sometimes, Andreas, they're phrases, sometimes they rhyme, sometimes they. But there's definitely a a look and feel to those words.
00:40:13:06 - 00:40:41:00
Will
And then of course, very important in the... So that's kind of the alive part of our process. In the thrive part of the process, we then bring imagery. Because there's lots of research that shows when we combine words with imagery, we augment our communal intelligence. How beautiful is that, if you're in the culture business? Augment our communal intelligence and increase the human bandwidth. Increase human bandwidth to what?
00:40:41:02 - 00:41:03:10
Will
Well, to to remember, to recall the values, to use them in everyday conversation. And so when we're done, we don't just have amazing words, but they look beautiful too. They're combined with engaging imagery. 65% of us are visual learners, why not tap into that? And picture tells a thousand words, right? So,
00:41:03:10 - 00:41:04:22
Andreas
So how do you do that?
00:41:04:22 - 00:41:06:22
Will
that's the important part of our thrive process.
00:41:06:24 - 00:41:12:02
Andreas
Do you have like, superheroes or like, personas or...?
00:41:12:02 - 00:41:31:26
Will
Sometimes. Yes, yes. Very often I would say sometimes that is the outcome that we personify the values with superheroes. But that depends on the culture. That works with techie cultures. And it works for, cultures maybe that are, that are, you know, working, you know, outdoors, kind of a lot of labor work.
00:41:31:28 - 00:42:18:05
Will
We've found... But then sometimes real images, real photographs work or we actually have artists create, you know, images with backdrops, with icons for each, each each value. And, there's a number of examples on our website at theculturefix.works. And my next book that's coming out next year, Andreas, is going to be The Glorious Book of CoreCharts™, where we want to inspire the world to, to, create their own CoreChart™ based on combining their magical values with an engaging image to to help, you know, all the good things that come from from having a CoreChart™.
00:42:18:09 - 00:42:36:00
Will
Which does not just have the values on by the way, we also like to put on there the CorePurpose™, which has a CoreDate and a CoreTarget. So that's something else that every three years or so I like to see people redo, redo their CoreChart™ with a new CorePurpose™.
00:42:36:02 - 00:42:48:06
Andreas
Will, it's inspiring to hear your vision about people and culture and how you're living it, but you're also gifting it.
00:42:48:09 - 00:43:03:01
Andreas
It's not just that it's your business, but I think you're doing a lot of work to really help employees, people, you know, companies out there
00:43:03:03 - 00:43:29:12
Andreas
understand who they are and live those values. One question I have for you before we wrap up. Is there something you read or something or a book or something else which you really appreciated, and you think more people should be reading or watching?
00:43:29:14 - 00:43:53:27
Will
You know, there's a lot of great books and a lot of great teachers on this stuff and, you know, Andreas, on the Entrepreneurs' Organization, you know, we love, we have thirst for learning is one of our values. And of course, and there's a lot of teachers that have come before me whose, you know, teachings I've adopted and used and turned into something practical.
00:43:54:00 - 00:44:16:11
Will
So, without mentioning any of those, I mean, I think I would go to my father really as being my inspiration, if that's sort of where you're going. My father was, you know, he was a part of making it possible for me to build treehouses. And, but he was just a real values man.
00:44:16:13 - 00:44:39:04
Will
And he had some, some phrases, some sayings which I've loved and I love to... which I think is really where my inspiration, a lot of my inspiration comes from. Things like, "Do what you do do well, boy," that's something he would say. Do what you do do well, boy. And today we're trying to get...
00:44:39:04 - 00:44:46:17
Will
Excuse me. I've got a frog in my throat.
00:44:46:19 - 00:45:07:15
Will
Excuse me, Andreas. Today, companies are still struggling, aren't they, with accountability. We just want people to do their job and do it well. And so things like that, I think, made me, you know, focus in on that. Another one of his was, "A job begun is a job well done." Oh, no. Is a job half done.
00:45:07:15 - 00:45:26:20
Will
Sorry. "A job begun is a job half done." So anyway, I would look to my father. He never actually wrote a book. But if he had, that would be the one I would turn people on to. But I'm trying to live his legacy.
00:45:26:22 - 00:45:32:03
Andreas
You're getting to write these books for him from the sounds of it.
00:45:32:05 - 00:45:35:26
Will
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
00:45:35:28 - 00:46:08:14
Andreas
So, Will, I really enjoyed the nuggets of gold you shared with us. There were some parts which I'm going to quote. And, I think, I just want to wish you good luck with really spearheading this vision of companies living their values and helping employees be the best they can.
00:46:08:14 - 00:46:13:05
Andreas
And again, living, living the values.
00:46:13:08 - 00:46:40:02
Will
Yes. Thank you, Andreas. We believe we can have a $10 billion, sorry, a $1 billion impact on the profitability of 10,000 companies and their million employees globally by 2030. Why? So that they are loyal, fulfilled and have the freedom to be happy at work. And I only need 100 coaches to achieve that. And we're on our way.
00:46:40:04 - 00:46:43:28
Andreas
You're on your way. Good luck with that, Will. Thank you for being with us.
00:46:43:28 - 00:46:47:07
Will
Thank you. Thank you for having me on your podcast, Andreas.