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As the customer success industry explodes, there's an ever-increasing number of people looking to try something different, take the leap, and become a CSM from other fields. In this episode I'm joined by Jeffrey See to explore some of the crossover skills educators can bring to customer success.
Happy Customers is about why making customer successful - and ultimately happy customers is more important than ever before.
Over the course of this series we’re going to explore what people inside some of the world's top companies are really doing everyday to go beyond the metrics and numbers on the balance sheet, collaborate across their entire organization, and truly invest in making their customers successful.
Stuart Balcombe (00:08):
As the customer success industry explodes, there's an ever-increasing number of people looking to try something different, take the leap, and become a CSM. But what does that actually take? Just how transferable are skills and experiences in other disciplines to customer success? One profession that seems to be at the forefront of the movement to CS is professional educators. And for good reason, there are lots of parallels between teaching and education and making customers successful, so much so that at times it's hard to tell them apart. Today's guest is Jeffrey See, assistant principal of the DC Everest area school district. Jeffrey has a wealth of experience as a school administrator and as an educator. So I wanted to dig into what he's learned and how he's now applying those lessons and principles to make the shift to making customers instead of his students successful. This is Happy Customers, the show for exploring what people inside some of the world's top companies are really doing every day to go beyond the metrics and numbers on the balance sheet, collaborate across their entire organization, and truly invest in making their customers successful. I'm Stuart Balcombe, and I'm excited you here. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcast. Okay, on with the show.
Jeffrey See (01:31):
So I'm an assistant principal at DC Everest Senior High School, and what that involves is, first and foremost, keeping kids safe. That's a huge part of the role, but beyond that, it is building relationships with students, their parents, with community members. And I think this role has expanded from what it has traditionally been known. I took part in referendum meetings, where you are trying to help local businesses build a new tech ed wing at our high school, and we succeeded with that. So we now have a nine-and-a-half-million-dollar tech ed wing that is better than some technical colleges because we help sell the community. And now the community will have students who can walk in and literally do jobs that the community wants them to do.
Stuart Balcombe (02:28):
Tell me a little bit about how did that change come about? How does a project like that... That obviously has a big dollar number on that program. How did you get to that point and that actually happening, because I think to put this in a CS context, businesses have goals. They have targets. They have sort of new things that they want to do to ultimately get to a point where everybody is successful. Tell me a little bit about that journey to that point.
Jeffrey See (02:53):
Sure. To be up front, our superintendent is phenomenal. She has so many connections in our community that she knows everyone who's a business owner in the community. When we had to go to the referendum, we surveyed the community. We wanted to know what is it that you are willing to support and help us out with. And then, very purposely, the district leadership team came up with a smaller number than that because we always want to be good stewards with the taxpayers' dollars. But then, as part of that, we wanted to... So part one of the roles that I had, I ran around with my iPhone taking pictures because people needed to see the type of equipment students in 2019 we're using, I mean, we had routers that were from another era. We had CNC machines that maybe from the '60s, '70s, which is typical, by the way, across the country. There aren't enough of these types of programs.
Jeffrey See (04:00):
And by communicating with our... We call them community partners. So our auto area has eight auto bays in it. The lists in there are the same lists that our students, if they go out and get a job in the community, same exact lists that they would already have experience on. When they built it, they designed it on purpose because our community is short on diesel mechanics. So the doors to let in vehicles are big enough that you can put a semi tractor in there. So our kids will be able to learn diesel. So some of that I think is, even in education, we've got these thought leaders and they do think like business people. Our teachers in that program... I know that we came up with an initial design, an initial kind of ask, and they said, "So have you talked to our community partners?" And that was a stub your toe kind of moment and went back. And when we went back to the community partners, that changed the dialogue because those partners, there were signs in the front of their businesses saying, "Vote for this referendum. It'll make DC Everest future ready." And I've been at this a while and I haven't seen too many communities where businesses are saying, "Raise our taxes so that we can do this."
Stuart Balcombe (05:22):
And I guess that's on two front, one is what you mentioned that the community was short on diesel mechanics, so that is a need that you're learning from engaging with the community, but on the other side as well, together, we can actually push this forward.
Jeffrey See (05:37):
Yes.
Stuart Balcombe (05:37):
How do you think that translates to, A, other projects? If you were to go and look at the next project that you're working on or something that is not education focused but explicitly business focused, how would that change the approach?
Jeffrey See (05:52):
I think that part of what helps change the approach with that is, even though, I think sometimes when you think assistant principal, you're limited. You've only really rubbed shoulders in your building, but I have more than just this jobs experience. So I have an ability to rub shoulders with people in our business community and feel very comfortable. I'm not going to be intimidated by executive presence. I can speak very comfortably to superintendents, deputy superintendents. I was an IT director in a smaller district. I know the questions that IT directors are going to ask, and I think that sometimes someone else in this role, without that background, they're not going to know the concerns. And I experienced it as we implemented products, and particularly SaaS products at times. So I understand how that works, but I always like to say, I feel comfortable talking to everyone in a school system. So just as an example, from a superintendent to the lunch ladies.
Stuart Balcombe (06:51):
One thing that I know you've talked about a lot on LinkedIn has been a subject of a lot of your videos, which have been awesome, and it's really cool to see folks who are maybe not starting in CS putting out content that is related to CS. You've talked a lot about crossover skills and the things... And you just mentioned that there, like being able to pull context and learning from something totally different, but then apply it somewhere else. What do you see as the trait or the experience that educators have specifically that maybe is missing in other folks with other experience?
Jeffrey See (07:25):
One of the things is I think we come in with that relationship-building piece, and you and I think talked about this before we started the episode. It's in an educator's DNA, I would say, that relationships are important. And I think I even said a lot of the job descriptions say, "Must be able to build relationships with customer partners." And I think what I told you was "Who can't build relationships?" And I really think that's something that teachers can bring to the table. The CS summit at the center yesterday, one of the sessions dealt with empathy, and I think teachers that's something that they really bring to the table because we're working with a variety of students. And I don't know if empathy can necessarily be taught. I think you become more aware of it, but in a lot of ways, I think you either have it or don't, and most teachers I know have that.
Stuart Balcombe (08:19):
Yeah, that was going to be my next question was what's an example of a situation that exists in education that has a comparable scenario that maybe making a direct application of that relationship, I guess, skill, so to speak?
Jeffrey See (08:35):
I think sometimes people aren't aware of how much of the work that we do is data driven because, at the end of the year, we get back reports from the standardized testing that students take. And we analyze that data. No matter what the report card grade may say that you did, this is about helping students be successful. So we will drill down into that data and take a look, is this a matter of there's a piece of curriculum that we're just not teaching that is being assessed? So do we need to shift our curriculum? Is this just an idea where a subset of students... So when I think about customers... So everyone in my book of business, let's say, are all of my customers having the same difficulty or asking for the same feature? If it's only a subset, well, I know that I probably need to engage with that particular customer, interview them, ask questions, really try to understand that problem.
Jeffrey See (09:32):
Just like we do in a school, we're engaging with our teachers. We are engaging a lot of times with students because we try to bring in that student voice. And at times, it's just maybe they don't have a real good concept of testing vocabulary. If you don't know what the questions are asking, if you knew what those words meant, you probably could solve the problem, but you don't know what those words mean. So those are the types of things that we have assessed and taken a look at. And we will even do longitudinal data, which is something that I think, as CS grows, it's probably going to be something more and more important to companies. As you're retaining customers, you want to take a look what does the data say, year over year, about a particular customer?
Stuart Balcombe (10:18):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great point about the longitudinal data, looking at performance or success of customers cohort by cohort, segment by segment over time, and how do you better use the data that you have to inform what you're going to do next? So you mentioned something that's really interesting, and this is something that's talked to about a lot in CS, which is, we're talking a lot about voice of customer. Does the company have a voice of customer program? Who owns that voice of customer program? And you just mentioned you're looking a lot in education at getting the voice of the student into your process and your planning and prioritization, which sounds very similar. But yeah, how do you go about doing that in an education setting when you have a lot of students, how do you make sure you're hearing the things that are going to be most impactful to make a decision?
Jeffrey See (11:08):
Here's an example where I think it involves working with cross-functional teams. So our school counselors, they're not... The guidance counselors is what they used to be called, but they really are a school counselor now. And oftentimes, they will have groups of students and they will take them aside and they've got a set of questions, and they're really trying to take a look at things, what's working, what isn't working. And, as an example, we had a student death in the fall and impacted a lot of our students, so that school counseling team took a group who was significantly impacted and asked questions, tried to really understand what they were going through, what was going on, and developing a program. And so we've got that student death in November, December, and in March, we are bringing someone in who can talk well about that topic for us. So that's one way that you do it.
Jeffrey See (12:11):
We will do surveys. We'll blast out a survey, but I can tell you those aren't necessarily as effective because there you're relying on a student to read their email, which they may or may not want to do. So I really think that what's effective is, can you get someone in a meeting of sorts, whether it's a face-to-face meeting, a Zoom meeting? Can you pick up the phone and call them because sometimes surveying when you're talking to someone it's a little bit different than just that Google forum that sometimes goes out?
Stuart Balcombe (12:41):
Right. Yeah. That totally makes sense. In a conversation, you have the ability to react and ask a follow-up and go deeper than you can in a static survey. So one thing that I want to ask, because I'm curious about in a school setting... So you mentioned cross-functional teams. You have a lot of stakeholders. As a principal, you have your teachers. You have the principal. You have students. You have parents. There's all these different... You have the community. There's all these different groups. How do you think about success for each group, and how do you, I guess, juggle the differing priorities of each group.
Jeffrey See (13:17):
I actually think about this quite a bit because if you don't have everyone in the same boat, at least mostly going in the same direction, it could be a challenge. So by making sure... So my job as an assistant principal, I want to take as much off my principal's plate as I possibly can. What are things that I can do so that he can focus on those higher-level things. And when I ask students "What do you think the purpose is of the work that we do here?" and a lot of times they'll say, "So I pass my classes." And I'm like, "No, our purpose here is that in June of your senior year, you walk across the stage with the skills you need to be successful in life. It's not just get to graduation. It's to be successful."
Jeffrey See (14:05):
And then thinking about working with parents, parents are doing the best job that they can, especially in this pandemic. They have been forced in directions none of us could have imagined. And they're doing the best they can, many of them working two, three jobs. So parents who traditionally might have been home to support a student, sometimes it's a matter of letting them know, "I know you are doing the best job that you can." And I can tell you, I always hear a sense of relief from parents when you just acknowledge that they are doing everything that they can. And I think when their student leaves and they are able to get a job... And parents especially like when they get a job in our community because that means they'll be staying close. And so when that happens, that's how you really build that with parents. But working with the community, that referendum is a huge example of it.
Jeffrey See (15:01):
We talked about that autos area. We have 18 welding bays in that metal shop. And why, because we worked with the community, and for the community to be successful, we need welders coming out of our program. We need machinists coming out of our program. We've got that in that shop as well. We need students who can build houses because our area contractors don't have enough people. So by engaging in that, our customer... in that case, the community... they're very supportive. They're appreciative that we came in with a low referendum number, and they're supportive because for the last two years, we have started graduating some of the students who went through these new programs and they're seeing the benefit from it. And I don't want to forget teachers because, with teachers, they're caught in the middle, because they're delivering content to students. And for them to be successful, our job is to support them.
Jeffrey See (15:58):
And sometimes it's through evaluation and trying to see, is there an area for growth for them because we want to try to support them and help them be successful at their job? Sometimes it's challenging someone who maybe they're already near the top, but we don't want to stop there. "So do you provide opportunities? Do you recommend they maybe look at getting their administrative license and taking on a leadership role in that way?" So again, it's different audiences, it's different customers, but I think that you'd see the same thing in a CS job. So am I talking to the superintendent in a district who maybe doesn't like the particular program, even though the IT department and curriculum vetted it? So to be able to talk to a different customer, hear them, and try to resolve the problem. So when I tell you that these skills are transferable, that's an example of what I'm talking about. I have these difficult conversations every day, and the end goal is always to find a solution to not always even a problem, but to find a resolution that makes a customer happy.
Stuart Balcombe (17:08):
Yeah. I love it. It's funny. We're talking all about education here, but we could equally be talking about a business. These are all situations which exist. There is a proxy for all of these things in a business-to-business relationship. So I know you wanted to make sure you didn't forget the teachers. I want to go back to the teachers because one of the challenges that we hear about all the time in CS and just generally is people, typically under resourced, understaffed, and expected to continue to exceed growth goals all at the same time, which from the outside seems like a lot of teachers are in that position too. How do you think about the difference between how do we help increase the average and how do we increase the success of individual students or individual participants within a program?
Jeffrey See (18:00):
And, in some ways, I think we have to think outside the box with the way we deliver education. Some kids really struggle even with the concept of school. Coming back after being out for a year and a half in the pandemic, we had some kids fully virtual. We had some kids really only coming to school two days a week and then expected to work outside of that. I can tell you that at the beginning of this year, a lot of students with anxiety. So what do you do? You take a program... People call them different things. They used to be called at-risk programs because these are kids you're worried are at risk of not graduating, but under that umbrella, we have a whole swath of students with mental health issues, with high anxiety. So a program like that... because kids who you can't get into school at all, they're not going to learn because they're not in school. So by being able to get them in, and maybe they only attend one or two face-to-face classes, but that's a win because we couldn't get them into the building. So some of it is doing things like that.
Jeffrey See (19:08):
Special education teachers are saints. I'll tell you that straight up because they do it all. They write these extensive, individual education plans for students. They're helping students meet goals, so... But again, that's how we try to reach a student who has a learning difficulty or they're emotionally or behaviorally disturbed. How can we get them to focus? And it can be something so simple. This week I was working with a teacher who was really frustrated. He had a student who just couldn't stay on task. And this is in that tech ed area. And the kid was constantly distracted, and for the teacher, it's a safety issue. He doesn't want that student getting hurt. And the teacher didn't want the student to be in class second semester for safety reasons. Well, we reached out and talked to the teacher, and that student special education teacher said, "Okay, I have five strategies we can try, and I think they're going to get him dialed in." So in doing that, we help those students be successful.
Jeffrey See (20:10):
And then I think schools have across the country and across the world, you're identifying your middle-ground students. A lot of those students benefit from activities you have that aren't academic. And because they are forced to time manage and they have structure, some of these kids, they come home at 9 o'clock and then homework starts, but they learn how to manage that. And then your highly-functional kids, you want to give lots of opportunities to. Those students who are probably going to a prestigious four-year school, they might be on the debate team. They might be on mock trial. But if you don't have the resources to provide those programs, if you don't have the staff in place who can supervise that, those things go to the wayside and it makes it more of a challenge, because the data shows that kids who are involved in at least one club or activity, they are statistically more likely to graduate from high school than those who are not.
Stuart Balcombe (21:13):
Yeah. Let talk a little bit about the data. I know you posted about this, people asking the question around how do we show the ROI of this book? And I think it's interesting... You already mentioned how you are defining success as the starting point. In order to measure ROI, we need to know what does success look like? Where are we trying to get to? And you already talked about that where it's not about the kid who... or your role is to help them pass class but is to prepare them for what happens after they walk across that stage. And I'm sure that you have had to do this. How do you make the case to increase programming, to make sure that you retain programming, which is supporting kids in getting to a successful outcome that they may not otherwise...
Jeffrey See (22:00):
I think we advocate four budgets at times. And I think, particularly in the environment we're in now, it's a little bit challenging to get more money depending on where the funding comes from. If it comes from the state, are you getting more funding there, because in the state of Wisconsin, for instance, there's a revenue cap in place? And even if you got more money from, let's say the federal government, the cap is in place. So you can't spend more than you spent last year because that cap holds you in place. But other districts across the country do it differently. So for us, we... In fact, we're going through this right now. We're trying to prioritize. We know what our budget circumstances look like and so let's prioritize. What are programs that we deem can't live without? And for us, it really is mental health, and we've seen that over these last two and a half years. So if we don't invest a good chunk of our dollars in mental health, we won't be able to help students be successful.
Jeffrey See (23:04):
And the other thing is investing in elementary education, can we reduce class sizes? And we say that because, in that fully virtual world, we had classes that were way too large. So we know that reducing that number... So we might have 50 priorities that we all think are important. And if you're the high school principal, you want this, this, this, but you've got to prioritize overall as a district. Everything is a district view, really. It's not just at your building level because if we choose to hire an additional tech ed teacher, where are we not hiring a teacher, or where are we not replacing a teacher who retired or left the district, because that's traditionally what happens?
Stuart Balcombe (23:50):
And so you mentioned a couple of times, "We know that if we do this, the outcome is going to be better." What is the data that you're using to make that decision? This is not software and tracking software... Sure, it can be complex, but you have the data. It's just a matter of showing the data, but here, we're talking about people and we're talking about human interactions. How do you think about showing... Well, being able to go back to the data and say, "We know the outcome's going to be better if we invest here"?
Jeffrey See (24:22):
Some of this is we can look at students' test scores prior to the pandemic. So we know students and where they scored on standardized tests. And we know transition points are usually struggles for kids period, but we can see a student who, yes, there might be a little struggle in that transition, but they get to the next grade level, they settle in, and they're still on that track that they've been on. So we can look to that and we can look... We don't have access to all the names, but we have the data, number of students who are reporting mental health concerns, number of students who are seeing... We actually are privileged to have counselors from the community who come into our building and that way, students don't have to leave and be gone for three hours to go for a counselor appointment.
Jeffrey See (25:13):
But we know that we can provide some of those services to keep them going, but what happened is, during this pandemic, even though kids may have been together at times outside of school, they were terrified of coming back to the building, students who had never seen their parents struggle before. So thinking data wise, we can track that, and that's where a longitudinal comes in. We know, by following a student's success, probably where they're going to end up. And so a student who is struggling prior to the pandemic, we see a downturn in those test results in passing, failing grades, and that's where it's our job to step in. And that at-risk program, we want to make sure we get these students as back on track as we can. And sometimes it's not fully back on track. We might have to use alternative learning for them.
Jeffrey See (26:06):
So they might be getting some of the learning on a computer using software. So that's some of the data that we have, Stuart, that we can look at. So we can see that when these mental health issues... And the county will share numbers with us, so we know that as this rose and as, by the way, parent mental health issues rose as well, we see this downward trend, even for our students who are performing at a pretty high level. And for a lot of reasons, and that's where I can show you data there, but then I have to go anecdotally, where a student who was vying for valedictorian but had to work 60 hours a week because both parents got laid off. Those are things that you can't account for.
Stuart Balcombe (26:52):
Right. And it's interesting, you mentioned this earlier, and this is directly relatable to software. You mentioned you can do a survey blast, you can send it out to everybody, but you end up with... The response rate is a little hit or miss because it relies on people opening their email and caring enough to fill in a survey, which a lot of companies do with like NPS, for example, blast it out. And you're making decisions based on partial data, but the conversation that you can have one to one with the student is really where the... It's much less likely, I guess, in a survey that somebody's going to say, "I now have to work 60 hours a week. Therefore, I can't do this, this and this." And that's the real cause of the performance change.
Stuart Balcombe (27:34):
So I guess let's talk a little bit... We've talked a lot about education and things that are... We could have been talking about CS. We've talked a lot about things in education that have direct parallels with CS, but let's talk a little bit about CS and the transition to CS, the path for an educator into a CS role. CS is exploding as an industry as companies are finally figuring out that making customers successful is actually a good thing. But what do you see as the roadblocks on that path. From our conversation so far, it sounds like that it should be not exactly a one to one, but pretty much a one to one. We do this in education. It applies over here in business and CS. What do you see as the roadblocks to that actually being the case?
Jeffrey See (28:17):
I think that until more educators get into these roles, I think you just see some, and I don't know where it lies. I don't know does it lie at hiring managers? Does it rely at recruiters? Does it rely in a company philosophy that they only want to hire people from the industry? So I think that that is part of it. Here's an analogy that I'll give you: When I do interviews and I'm trying to hire a teacher, that teacher graduated from a math program, let's say, I know they know math, because they graduated with a 4.0 or whatever it is in math. Yep, they get math. When I'm listening to the interview, all I care is I'm listening for words do they care about kids? Because I can't teach a math teacher to care about kids, but I can teach a math teacher if they are short on some math skills how to teach math.
Jeffrey See (29:10):
So thinking of that, I think that educators know they don't know everything about SaaS sales. And by the way, if I were to give a recommendation to educators trying to get in, go to Success Hackers and get your Level 1 CCSM certification because that's something that can show up on your resume, and it at least shows you're invested in yourself, you're willing to learn. But I think there are just going to be skills that we're going to have to learn. But what I can tell you, what I know about teachers, we learn very quick. Most teachers I know, most, they're Type A personalities and they're like, "Give me the rubric and I will get an A." And so I think that once more teachers get an opportunity, once more administrators get an opportunity, I think companies will see... The thing that I try to say, but I can't back it up with dollars... So return on investment, if someone chooses to hire me, I learn really quick.
Jeffrey See (30:07):
And I've been dealing with technology for quite some time, and I've been an IT director. Whatever programs I need to learn, I'm going to learn them quickly so that I'd be able to move on to what's that next thing you want to train me on so that there's a shorter timeline to get me directly dealing with that book of business and trying to support customers, so less time investment there. And I think you would see that with a lot of educators as well. So I don't know what the roadblock is.
Stuart Balcombe (30:40):
Yeah. It's interesting. You mentioned a couple of things that... So one is teachers being really fast learners. If you have the rubric, you can go and be successful. You'll figure it out and get that A, but you mentioned something earlier, which I think is very transferable. And you mentioned the certification that you recommend that the teachers or educators go and take, but you mentioned something earlier talking about test scores for kids, which is that kids often don't know the testing language, which is directly applicable to SaaS or any industry. There are particular things that hiring managers probably expect to hear just from somebody which... and somebody who's been in the industry just knows, like how are we going to measure performance? Well, it's SaaS metrics. What are the SaaS metrics that we're going to talk about? So I think that that's also an interesting starting point is to... And also, a relatively low lift. If you're faster learning things anyway, knowing what the terminology is that is expected is going to be relatively easy.
Jeffrey See (31:35):
Yeah. I can tell you when I took the pretest for that, that reinforced for me that I can do this job because that pre-assessment, most of the questions I was like, "This isn't a hard lift. This isn't a heavy lift." And I'm a little over halfway done with it. It just takes a time commitment every night. Give yourself an hour every night, you'll be through it before long, and I think people would find that they can do that. And then you do have that language, if you're in an interview that you can talk about, because we know data, but we don't know the metrics for the industry, right?
Stuart Balcombe (32:06):
Yeah, absolutely. So to close this out, this has been really awesome. I'm so excited that there are things... We can almost do a, is this SaaS or not, or this CS or not type of episode. But for you personally, where are you trying to get to, and what has been the... You mentioned the certification, but are there other resources, other places that you've found particularly helpful for you?
Jeffrey See (32:29):
I think people need to reach out and don't be afraid. And I think teachers, at times, there's a tendency because I know that revered speakers on the education circuit, people sometimes get starstruck by that. And it can be easy to do that, but don't be afraid to reach out. Some of the biggest names that you've heard of, when you reach out to them, they direct message you and they're like, "How can I help?" And they're not just saying it. They mean it. They want to help people to be successful. So when we say build the network, if you want to be in CS, make sure that you're trying to connect to a lot of CS people go to things like the CS Insider or speed mixer. Go to the CS summit at the center. I'll be honest, some of that stuff, woo, way over my head, but I could still take down some notes and fill in some of that vocabulary that I don't have. But find yourself a mentor. And there's so many people out there that if you'll just ask, they're willing to mentor you. And again, you and I talked about this, I think, before you started recording. This community is so supportive and giving because I think they want everyone to succeed. And what's interesting, I find this to be a less competitive environment that I'm seeing than in education.
Stuart Balcombe (33:50):
I can certainly concur on this community is incredibly giving and incredibly helpful and welcoming to... Whatever your previous experience, everybody he wants to help. And I think it's certainly interesting to speak to the competitive point. The goal is not to compete amongst each other, but how can we make the customer, how can we make the subject of the success work more successful, which is ultimately the win?
Jeffrey See (34:18):
Or how do we lift everyone? Because if we lift everyone, you're going to have more people capable of making the customer happy.
Stuart Balcombe (34:26):
Thanks so much to Jeffrey for joining me and taking us on a journey through his experience in education. Let's go back to our big idea from the start of the episode. How can skills from other disciplines be transferred to customer success? By starting with clearly defined goals and creating a shared and individualized plan to achieve them. Making customers successful means first understanding what success actually looks like and the specific challenges an individual needs to overcome to get there. I love Jeffrey's story about uniting his community around a shared goal. By getting buy-in early and leading with how a project would be valuable to them specifically, he was able to achieve a much better outcome than going it alone. I think that's such a directly transferable concept to just about any role.
Stuart Balcombe (35:17):
If there's one thing I'm taking away from this episode, it's that anybody who has people at the center of their role today likely has a compelling story to tell (or ten) that could just as easily be from a customer interaction as a CSM. We talked a lot in this episode about getting to know the people. And in our next episode, I'll be chatting with Mary Poppen from Involve.ai about why knowing the most about people, even as you scale, is the key to more effectively making your customers successful. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this conversation, I'd really love for you to reach out to Jeffrey on LinkedIn and let him know. If you have any feedback or questions, I'd love to hear from you as well. It's stuart@arrows.to. See you next time.