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Life by Design is a podcast that shares the experiences and tools to help couples align their wealth goals and reclaim their time, enabling them to experience freedom, abundance, and a life by design.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:00:09] Welcome to the Life By Design podcast with your hosts Jessilyn and Brian Persson. We work with professional couples to help resolve conflict and elevate communication within their relationship.
Brian Persson: [00:00:20] We are the creators of the Discover Define Design framework, which supports you in resolving conflict and communicating better.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:00:28] Our topic this week is Agreements Part two. If you recall last podcast we discussed what are agreements, why do we need them, and how do they work? This week we're going to cover what are default agreements, what happens when you break an agreement, and why should you review agreements on a recurring basis? So Brian, what are default agreements?
Brian Persson: [00:00:50] Default agreements. They're a danger. That's what they are for your relationship.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:00:55] Yes.
Brian Persson: [00:00:56] Basically a default agreement is something where you haven't openly discussed it and actually intentionally chosen that to be your agreement within the relationship. It has happened by default. So whether it's through some irritation that you've created an agreement within your relationship or whether it's through just actions that were going on in your relationship, like for us driving. By default, I drive the highway driving and by default you drive the city driving.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:01:30] Sometimes it's also assumptions from the other partner, right? Like I assumed you knew when the garbage was overflowing and you just take it out.
Brian Persson: [00:01:39] Yeah.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:01:39] And that default did not work.
Brian Persson: [00:01:41] Yeah. The default agreement was that I was to empty the garbage.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:01:45] Yes, but you did not.
Brian Persson: [00:01:47] No. But the the parameters, because it was a default agreement, because there was really no discussion around it, there was really no parameters around how that garbage should be emptied, i.e. like how full it should be. It really was relatively undiscussed. And so it became non-intentional and instead a default.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:02:10] Yeah. So we need to reflect on what agreements might have unintentionally entered your relationship. And I'm going to tell you right now, to our listeners, you have a lot of them because we did. And I'm sure if we dug extra deep, we might still have a couple that we haven't... It's obviously working because we're not complaining about it, but we've had so many where we've had to come together and just make it a formal agreement, if you will, that you and I both understood and agreed to in terms of what it was going to be, who was responsible, how it was going to work.
Brian Persson: [00:02:45] Yeah. You'll always have default agreements in your relationship. It just, it's really a question of like, how much energy do you want to put into finding those default agreements and making them intentional? And it's like anything in life, you know, do you want to put energy towards your business? Do you want to put energy towards your kids? Well, whatever energy you put towards that thing is obviously going to improve.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:03:11] So we have, you know, default agreements used to be like I would do almost all the cooking. And it was because I'm very particular in what I like to eat. And it's not that you can't cook, it's just that, I mean, aside from being slightly picky, I also enjoy cooking, right? It's something I just grew up doing. If we're being real honest here, it was my way to get out of doing the farm chores and cleaning the barn, so I became a really good cook.
Brian Persson: [00:03:38] Yeah, there's some history there. Yeah.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:03:40] But I do enjoy cooking, but not always, right? There are times where I'm like, I just don't want to decide what's for dinner or, you know, once I got pregnant, the pregnancies were a little hard on some of my joints. And so my, you know, my right wrist doesn't work like it used to. And so it just became frustrating for me to do some of that prep work with chopping up the food. And so this is where I enlisted your support. And now our agreement is that you're my sous chef.
Brian Persson: [00:04:09] I'm the sous chef. Yeah.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:04:10] And then I cook, right?
Brian Persson: [00:04:12] Yeah. But think about how that agreement came in to place. So years it took us to figure out like what, like why that agreement was even the default agreement and really what the reason it became a default agreement from the beginning, obviously your very far past history of trying to get out of the farm work. But in our history, when we knew each other, the reason it became a default agreement was because I was tired of trying to find food that you would enjoy.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:04:46] Right.
Brian Persson: [00:04:46] And so I was like, you know, what? The heck with this. This is not worth my energy to try and cook for you when you're not going to enjoy anything that I cook. Not a bad cook, it's just a matter of pickiness. So by default you just took over the cooking.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:04] I mean, it helps that you like everything.
Brian Persson: [00:05:07] I like everything.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:09] So it's not hard for me to have to cook. But yeah, exactly.
Brian Persson: [00:05:12] But it created, because it was default, it created a lot of irritation for you.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:18] Yes.
Brian Persson: [00:05:18] Because you were in your head. I'm gonna paraphrase. You can tell the listeners what what you probably really thought, but it was something along the lines of like, God, like, why do I always have to cook? And there was no discussion as to why you always had to cook at the beginning. And so a lot of assumptions were made, no intentions were set. And the agreement became by default.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:43] Yeah. And it wasn't even a full agreement. Now I've had, you know, I obviously have conversations with different women all the time and I know I had one lady who came to me and said, she does all the cooking and she's just, it's frustrating because she doesn't want to always do the cooking, and she's frustrated when there's never any leftovers, even though she's cooked, you know, a lot of food. So as a career person, when she wants to go grab something to eat from what she thought might have been there, it's not there. And, you know, my first question to her was, well, have you had this conversation with your husband? And she didn't. So obviously it was a default agreement.
Brian Persson: [00:06:20] Yep, yep. Leftovers are one. Did we have an agreement over leftovers?
Jessilyn Persson: [00:06:25] Yes.
Brian Persson: [00:06:25] I don't touch them unless I'm supposed to.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:06:28] That's right. That is right.
Brian Persson: [00:06:31] Because I don't know what ones are going to be used for supper. That, again, it's your department to choose what you want to cook for supper. So unless you announce it to me, then I, the agreement is that like save everything in case it's used for supper.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:06:48] Yeah. And also part of the agreement is if I don't want to cook or I know I'm going to be gone or I'm too busy, I let you know you're in charge of dinner. That's our agreement.
Brian Persson: [00:06:59] Yeah. Other areas that kind of happened by default were like real estate. The default there was that I manage all the real estate. Early on we kind of--
Jessilyn Persson: [00:07:13] -- both did.
Brian Persson: [00:07:14] Yeah. Yeah, we both did. But like, through a short period of time as we took on real estate, it became very obvious that I was doing most of the management, but there was no real discussion about it. The reality was that my personality is just better suited to real estate management.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:07:31] 100%. I mean, we had conversations but they weren't targeted towards agreements per se. It was just a realization of you see my reactions when certain outcomes happen with our renters. And you are like, no, Jess, you can't do that. And so just by default, you took on managing our renters and showcasing our real estate.
Brian Persson: [00:07:53] Yep. Just a better personality to, like, manage, you know, the thoughts of a renter and get them to pay the rent. Not that we have too many problems. Manage all the maintenance people, like understand all that stuff. It all happened by default but now we have intentional conversations around that. And there are parts of real estate that you now take on. Not in the management side of it, like per se, boots on the ground. But up until that point, up until recently, it was really just a default agreement between us that I was the manager for the real estate.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:08:29] Yeah, I actually want to delve into that a little deeper because that impacts, I'd say, I'm going to call it ego. So I do remember when you were managing it and it was my ego that kind of got in the way, because it's not that I can't manage it, I can, it just, like you said, it's not my personality for the outcomes we want. I mean, you know, we've mentioned before, I'm a project manager, so it's not that I can't manage things. It's just I have a certain style of how I manage and what I manage, and managing a project, you know, with specific outcomes and budget and resources is not the same as managing tenants who are, if this is their home, this is dependent on their jobs, like there's different plays in effect there. But for the longest time I just struggled with the thought that I couldn't manage it and I wasn't capable, and it was more my ego being, and finally when I just let it go and went, yeah, you're right, you are the better manager when it comes to all that. All yours. Thanks, hun.
Brian Persson: [00:09:26] Yeah, actually, this year we just recently did our yearly planning session. Not quite over yet. I think we have to go out for dinner one more time. But inside of that, we resolved actually sort of a default agreement when it came to business. Very similar to what you're talking about as a project manager. And the reality is that, like, I can get stuff done, but you're kind of the bigger picture person, and I'm more the person that gets a little bit into the weeds and takes on the skills and actually like brings things to the finish line. So the default agreement was that you thought I was an equal partner in the CEO role. And we were like somehow CEO and CEO. The reality is that you're the CEO. I don't know what my role, I don't know what, I'm the CO-everything else. But like for a long time, there was an agreement that I should equally be able to make the same quality of decisions that you're able to make in that role. And the reality is, it didn't work.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:10:37] It didn't work. And I would get so frustrated because I would leave it to default, leave it to you to make a decision. And sometimes you wouldn't or sometimes you made a decision that wasn't maybe what I would have agreed to, but it also happened to me with the work. So there we share a lot of the work in our business, and there is times where you are just better suited for some of the work. Again, not that I couldn't do it, and sometimes I think it might have been ego or whatever you want to call it, where it's like, well, I can crank this out and do it too. But as we discussed, it makes more sense to have set roles and things we're going to do. So then I'm not thinking you're doing it or you're not thinking that I'm doing it and it's not getting done. And then we're getting frustrated. But also now you know what to expect from me as a CEO. And I know what to expect to give you and vice versa.
Brian Persson: [00:11:25] Yeah. And ego kept me in my position, like unworkable position, for a long time too, because I kept thinking that one day I'm going to start making decisions like my partner makes, my spouse makes decisions. And the reality is that you just, you think different than me, right? Just like you, the way you approach sales is quite a bit different than the way I approach sales. The way you approach larger CEO visionary decisions is different than the way I approach those decisions. And yeah, ego got in the way a lot with that. Even for me, it was like, I'm going to get to that point where, like, I'm going to make the decisions just like you want to make the decisions.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:12:15] Yeah, I think it's removed a lot of frustration from both of us in terms of what we're doing in our company. But I mean, that's one of how many default positions. So, you know, I'd encourage our audience to look where it is default anywhere from, you know, the cooking, chores, the decisions on the kids, the pets, who's running the errands, you know, a lot of those happen by default. And if you sit down with your partner and review it, I think you both will have a better understanding and come out happier. And speaking as a mom with a career, I know I work with a lot of career moms, and I know they feel the burden of trying to run a career or their business and manage the household and the kids, and they just feel this heavy weight, and it causes stress and anxiety. And I think they're hesitant to ask their partners for more help and support in that area, feeling that it's their responsibility, when really it should be both because you're you're equal partners.
Brian Persson: [00:13:12] Yeah, yeah, I mean you, that is really what you got to have the discussion about, like see where the agreement is. Because once you start looking for those defaults inside of your relationship, you're going to find them. Right? And I think most relationships start off with just irritation around what they think the agreement should be. And that's where it stays. It just stays in that irritation phase. Yeah.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:13:39] Yeah. So what happens when you break an agreement?
Brian Persson: [00:13:42] Yeah. So. Agreements, they don't really care. They don't have any emotions. They don't have any thoughts or feelings. But we tend to personify them as if they do. Just like I was saying just a minute ago, you think the agreement is a certain way and therefore you experience irritation around that agreement. But the reality is that they're not right or wrong, they don't have any like feeling behind them. And the reality is that if you intentionally made an agreement, not by default, but if you intentionally made an agreement, then there is the option to revise that agreement.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:14:25] Absolutely. Review it, revise it, don't throw it out.
Brian Persson: [00:14:29] Don't throw it out.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:14:30] Right? I mean, everything can be, sometimes it's just a mild adjustment and it's like perfect for you and your partner. But there's times where we've thrown things out completely, thinking it wasn't workable, just to come back to it and be like, oh, we just needed to tweak this one little thing to make it work for us.
Brian Persson: [00:14:47] Yeah, yeah. And like I was saying earlier, too often they either, inside of a relationship, they either throw out the agreement or they experience that irritation. They throw consequence onto their partner. And the reality is that it's not that. It's just that the agreement wasn't right to start. And so you got to sit down. You got to have a discussion. Our Discover Define Design framework is a great way to go and explore where that agreement maybe didn't quite work out and what you have to revise in it. And then you can revise it, continue, see where else it might not be quite workable. Come back to the discussion. Revise again.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:15:36] Yeah. If an agreement that you have with your partner is broken and say it was your partner who broke it, make sure you communicate that as soon as you can. Too often, and I'm speaking for myself, I sit on it and be like in my head, yo, you just broke an agreement. Like, what is up with that? And I stew on it weeks. Months, maybe. Don't get mad, let it fester, and then it builds on other things instead of just outright, you know what? If you're nervous to approach your partner about it, let me tell you, those nerves are worth getting over right away than stewing on it for months. And if it's you who broke the the agreement then speak about that as well. Acknowledge it. I think your partner would be like, super grateful that you at least acknowledge you broke it. Or if it's not working and you foresee that it's not going to work, have that conversation.
Brian Persson: [00:16:30] If you're nervous about bringing up a broken agreement with a partner, then probably one of the first things that you got to look at is your agreement around communication. If you're nervous, your agreement on communication is probably not quite right or nonexistent or by default, and you have to look at that and make sure that you actually have an agreement around communication. We communicate on a scheduled basis so that there's no room for us to say, stew or have things fester. And then inside of that agreement, if there is something that is a problem and it isn't brought up during our regular communication schedules, then it's on us to make sure that the next time it is brought up. And it's not really on us to, as a ticket to allow us to stew and fester a little bit more.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:17:29] Right. 100%. So why should you review agreements on a recurring basis?
Brian Persson: [00:17:34] Exactly what I just said. If you aren't on top of your agreements, if you aren't on top of your communication, then things will drift into default. Your agreements will become default agreements that had worked in the past and no longer work today or will work into the future. And yeah, you might experience a lot of negative emotions around it because now your agreement doesn't work anymore and you're not talking about it.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:18:05] Right. Agreements change. Period. They will. Just, life changes, things change, and with that agreements change. And you can let them change silently and by default, or talk about it and make sure it's workable. And if agreement is changed and you notice it has changed, but maybe it hasn't been spoken, like, don't be afraid to schedule that and point it out that it has changed. And if it's not workable for you, don't just eat it. You know, mention that it's not workable for you and why. And I promise you guys will come to an agreement that works for both of you.
Brian Persson: [00:18:37] Yep. Yeah. Agreements, agreements change. Communication is probably the primary agreement that people out there, our listeners, should review and revise on a regular basis. We consistently revise our communication agreement, like when, how often we do it, what is involved in that communication agreement? Like what we're going to talk about when we meet and have our scheduled communication.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:19:04] I can't stress how important having agreements are. I know we discussed having agreements about large decisions like buying a house, career, business, decisions on who's going to do what, decisions on communication and calendarising. But we have agreements on everything. For example, money, right? Like we came from very different backgrounds when it comes to money. I know, you know, I grew up on a farm without money and so I really had that poverty mentality. Right? So I just like very resistant to spending, saved everything I could, scared really, because I didn't know, I didn't ever want to come into a situation where I might not have food on the table. And then you come from more the middle class background, where you had a different understanding and appreciation of money and how to spend it. And it took us like years of being together and then actually taking some courses to come together on what money as a family between you and I look like.
Brian Persson: [00:20:07] Yeah. And individually. You know there's a lot of soul searching you got to do in yourself, too. But as money as a family, one of the issues in the past was like, as you were saying, you came from a little bit more of a poverty mentality. I came from a little bit more from the middle class. And what ended up happening was that anytime I said anything about overspending, you would immediately flip from black to white.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:20:40] Yeah. Stop spending everything.
Brian Persson: [00:20:42] Yeah. And for me, it was much more about, it wasn't so much that we should all of a sudden stop spending. It was more that we should get back to consistency. Right? And so we had no agreement around like exactly what consistency looked like. And we had no agreement over what too much spending looked like or what too little spending looked like. And so there was a lot of reactionary behaviors inside of it. And until we started to get very intentional about our communication and about the way we managed our money, it really was reactionary where things would go black to white and cause just different types of anxiety and stress around it.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:21:32] Yeah, 100%. And as our careers grew and we both made more money, my mindset around it didn't really shift. It took some training to understand that, like, okay, we have money now. I don't have to worry about it. So what are we going to do with it? Right? Like we had to come together on how did we want to invest, aside from obviously real estate portfolio was our big first decision. But then when we decided to be like, okay, you know, we got the portfolio we want for now, what next are we going to do with money and what does that look like? And are we both on board with what that might look like?
Brian Persson: [00:22:07] And as you said, a lot of revisions. Right?
Jessilyn Persson: [00:22:10] Yes.
Brian Persson: [00:22:10] It wasn't like we just came about one day that like, oh this is how we're going to treat money. We went through a lot of discussions, a lot of revisions, and even today, as you were just mentioning, we have some decisions to make around money. And the difference is that now we have a framework that we use. And now we don't allow those money decisions to come about by default. And we make intentional money decisions.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:22:41] Exactly.
Brian Persson: [00:22:42] That are allowed to be revised. Yeah.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:22:46] And if one of us has an idea or sees something that we might want to do with money, again, it's not an automatic yes, and it's not a hey, I shouldn't say this. It's a let's put it on the table, discuss it, decide if it's going to work for our family or not. Right? It's never a always, we don't just throw out an idea. We'll always at least hear it out and look at it from both angles and move forward how we feel it's best for us.
Brian Persson: [00:23:15] Yeah, yeah yeah, intentionally though. But like, and through communication. And for us, and how I recommend it to everybody out there, is schedule your communication. Because you'll always keep on top of things if you can schedule your communication.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:23:29] Yeah. And I mean, you know, going further into when we say have an agreement for everything, we have agreements for date night and sex, right? Like if I want a date night, I tell you, and you are to book babysitter, set up that side of it. And then when it comes to sex, I mean, because that fell somewhat into default, right now the agreement is I can ask for it whenever I want. And I mean, and that is, I mean, because there were times I may have wanted it but I felt you had so much on your plate, whether it was business or you run around for the kids, that I just didn't say anything. And then when you found that out later, by default, it was frustrating for you because you're like, whoa, right, wait.
Brian Persson: [00:24:14] Any man should.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:24:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we came to the agreement now that whenever I want, I can ask for it.
Brian Persson: [00:24:20] Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:24:23] Now that we hit a hot topic, I'm going to recap our takeaways for this episode. First takeaway is reflect on what agreements might have unintentionally entered your relationship and be watchful for agreements being created by default. Number two, an agreement isn't right or wrong, it's what you both decided on. If broken, review and revise. Do not throw it out. And the third takeaway is agreements change. You can let them change silently and by default into something that is no longer agreed upon and not workable. Or you can intentionally review and revise. Our topic for next episode is going to be on accountability.
Brian Persson: [00:25:05] We release podcasts every two weeks. Be sure to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app to journey with us and create your life by design.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:25:14] Thanks for listening to the Life By Design podcast with your hosts, Jessilyn and Brian.