Ornamentals

Dive into the vibrant world of ornamental aquaculture with Travis Knorr, as he discusses sustainable practices for the aquarium trade. Learn how captive breeding and innovative aquaculture techniques can protect ocean ecosystems while inspiring future conservationists.  Gabby Bradt and Michael Chambers explore the journey of ornamental fish from reef to home aquarium.

 

In This Episode:

Guest: Travis Knorr, Masters Student at University of Florida and Owner of Summerland Ocean Life

 

Host: Gabby Bradt, Ph.D. Fisheries and Aquaculture Extension State Specialist, New Hampshire Sea Grant/UNH Cooperative Extension, University of New Hampshire

 

Co-host: Mike Chambers, Ph.D. Aquaculture Research Professor at the School of Marine Science and Ocean Engineering, Center for Sustainable Seafood Systems 

 

 

Show Notes

 

Key Takeaways:

• Discover the impact of wild ornamental fish collection on coral reefs.
• Learn about ornamental aquaculture and its role in marine conservation.
• Explore career paths and education in aquaculture and marine science.
• Understand the potential for repurposing existing infrastructure for coral restoration.
• Consider the economic and environmental benefits of sustainable aquaculture practices.

 

Resources Mentioned:

• University of Florida Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory 
• Summerland Ocean Life Ornamental Hatchery
• Florida Keys Community College (now College of the Florida Keys) 
• Dynasty Marine
• Reef Renewal USA
• IC2R3 (International Center for Coral Restoration and Research)
• AquaFort
• EE Blue Aquaculture Literacy Grant
• NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration)
• North American Association for Environmental Education 
• College of the Florida Keys Marine Environmental Technology Program 

 

 

Connect With Us:

• Travis Knorr (UF/IFAS tropical Aquaculture Laboratory)
• Gabby Bradt (NH Sea Grant/University of New Hampshire Cooperative Extension)
• Michael Chambers (University of New Hampshire/ Center for Sustainable Seafood Systems)

 

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Featured Quotes:

• Travis Knorr: “What I saw, I couldn’t ignore…these fish that were supporting my career were getting fewer and fewer. And so I started to feel pretty guilty about what I was doing.”
• Travis Knorr: “Aquaculture should be considered as a trade… If you work hard, if you’re willing to do stuff and learn that, you know, you can start building your skills that way.”

 

Behind the Story:

Travis Knorr’s evolution from a scuba-diving fish collector to a passionate advocate for ornamental aquaculture showcases a growing awareness within the aquarium trade. His firsthand experience with coral bleaching and biodiversity loss in the Florida Keys spurred a career change, leading him to explore sustainable alternatives that balance industry needs with environmental stewardship.

 

Take Action:

Explore aquaculture education programs in your region.

 

Share This Episode:

Learn about #ornamentalaquaculture and its potential to save our reefs! Listen to the Get Aquacultured! podcast episode with Travis Knorr. #aquaculture #marineconservation

 

Creators and Guests

Host

Gabriela Bradt, Ph.D., Zoology/Animal Biology

Host

Michael Chambers, Ph.D., Zoology/Animal Biology

Michael has been advancing open ocean farming technologies for over 30 years in the US and Abroad. In the US, he has managed submerged cage culture projects in the Gulf of Mexico, Hawaii and the North Atlantic.

Guest

Travis Knorr

Masters Student at University of Florida and Owner of Summerland Ocean Life

What is Get Aquacultured!?

Get Aquacultured! is a new limited-series podcast from University of New Hampshire The Center for Sustainable Seafood Systems that dives into the many sides of aquaculture—straight from the people who know it best. Hosts Gabriela Bradt, Michael Coogan, Michael Chambers, and Michael Doherty share a lively conversation with industry experts, practitioners, students, and educators working in aquaculture. Together, they’ll bust myths, spotlight different perspectives, and bring the fascinating world of aquaculture to life. From science and innovation to classrooms and coastal communities, Get Aquacultured! explores stories you won’t often hear in the mainstream media—but that matter for our oceans, our food systems, and our future. Fun, informative, and accessible, these conversations are designed to connect you with the people and ideas shaping aquaculture today

Mike Coogan
Hey there and welcome to Get Aquacultured!, the podcast where we dive into the deep end of the world's fastest growing food industry. On this podcast, we invite industry professionals, researchers, and educators to bring you inside the systems that make up modern aquaculture. So whether you're a curious eater, a coastal neighbor, or someone who likes to nerd out about ocean science, we're glad you're here. Did you know the global ornamental fish trade moves millions of fish every year from tiny tetras to flashy clownfish. Today on Get Aquacultured!, we're joined by Travis Knorr, owner of Summerland Ocean Life Ornamental Hatchery and a master's student at University of Florida's Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory to unpack the colorful world of ornamental aquaculture. How do these fish get from coral reefs to your living room? What happens when wild collection meets captive breeding?
And how can aquaculture transform this vibrant hobby to help protect ocean ecosystems and inspire the next generation of ocean conservationists? Your host for today's episode of Are Gabby Bradt and Michael Chambers. It's part science, part art, and full of surprises. So grab your snorkel and let's Get Aquacultured!.
Gabby Bradt
And I don't know if we're going to be on YouTube, but Travis is a master's student in fisheries and aquatic sciences at the University of Florida, and as I like to call him, an ornamental aquaculture expert. Because I think, honestly, other than Michael Chambers, who's with me too, I don't really know as much or know anybody else who can grow such beauty, beautiful fish. So how about we go around and introduce ourselves?
So I'm Gabby Bradt. I'm the fisheries and extension specialist for New Hampshire Sea Grant and UNH Cooperative Extension. I do a little bit of aquaculture education and literacy. I have tried to grow my own things, but mostly I just try to get Michael to grow it and then I tell people to eat it. So that's my extension part of aquaculture. But I have been doing aquaculture things since, I want to, say, 2001, when I was working with baby summer flounder and pigmentation issues way, way, way back when.
Michael Chambers
My name is Michael Chambers. I'm a research associate professor in the School of Marine Science and Ocean Engineering. Also work with New Hampshire Sea Grant and the Center for Sustainable Seafood Systems. Too many things to wear. I specialize in farming the open ocean shellfish, seaweeds, and fin fish.
Travis Knorr
Cool.
Gabby Bradt
Thank you. So, Travis, let's open this up and tell us a little bit about who you are, why I call you the ornamental expert.
Travis Knorr
Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'll start at the beginning and sort of, you know, tell the story of how I got to where I am, because it kind of all builds on top of each other in a sort of cohesive way. So as a kid, I loved aquariums, but it was really my D who brought aquariums into the home. He had a pair of 50 gallon or 55 gallon tanks and they had piranhas in them. And so when I was a kid, you know, we'd go ice fishing, we'd bring home the minnows, and the minnows became, well, you know, fish food for the piranhas. So it was very exciting.
It was a very impressive component of my childhood and it really opened my eyes to, you know, caring for animals and aquatic animals and maintaining aquariums at a very early age. So I always loved fish. As I said, we were fishing, we were ice fishing. We would go down to the Florida Keys as a young child. I was probably 12 years old the first time I went down. And before we went down that year, my dad and I learned how to scuba dive. So at a very young age, I was prepped and I was ready, got real tired real fast of diving in 50 degree quarries in Wisconsin.
So I was, I was pretty excited to go down to the Keys and see what the real scuba diving opportunity really was. And so we went down and of course my, my love for the ocean started there. Saw the most beautiful fish I've ever seen in my life. Just 12 years old, but, you know, still it was, it was very impressionable at an early point in my life. So it just kind of built. Every year my parents would go down to the Keys, I grew a little older and I wouldn't be able to go every time. As I started my own career and, you know, progressed through high school and college and everything. So. So at some point wasn't, you know, the best student first time around in college.
And so I, I went into the trades in some way, shape or form and I, I learned a ton of different things. I, I did doors, I did windows, I did plumbing, electrical, all of these things. And, you know, it was fun. I got into audio, I got a tech degree in sound production and recording. That was fun. I did car stereos and you can see where this is going. I'm bouncing around all over the place, you know, not really finding the perfect spot for me to fit into yet.
And so through a few years of that, I started looking broad and wide for a job that would really excite me. And on Craigslist, which was a little bit more relevant back then. I found a scuba diver wanted ad in the Florida Keys. And it just seemed a little surreal, you know, how could this be?
What aren't they telling me? So that winter I had the opportunity to travel with my parents down to the Keys on their annual vacation and sort of test drive this job opportunity. And what it turned out being was a fish collector is what they call a fisherman for ornamental fish, specifically in the Florida Keys, but other places as well. So there I was, back in the water, looking at these beautiful fish that I loved and now earning a living as a fisherman, collecting ornamental fish. I spent about four and a half, five years doing that. I worked for an outfit, a professional fishing company and then eventually bought my own license and started working for myself and did that for a couple more years and spent about five consecutive years underwater diving almost literally six days a week, three tanks a day. I racked up some serious bottom time over that period of time in my life.
And what I saw, I couldn't ignore. This was between 2007, 2013, when we saw some of some of the first real widespread bleaching issues in the Florida Keys, followed by a decline in biodiversity, a decline in coral cover, and these fish that were supporting my career were getting fewer and fewer. And so I started to feel pretty guilty about what I was doing. And so I decided that was the time to make a change. And so I enrolled in college at. Back then it was the Florida Keys Community College. Now it's the College of the Florida Keys.
Fantastic little school, small classes, very, very hands on dealing with the environment of the Florida Keys, the Florida Keys coral reef ecosystem. I got a degree in marine environmental technology, also a college certificate in ornamental mariculture, basically raising clownfish and recirculating aquaculture systems. And so this was really the transition into my career as professional in aquaculture, specifically, in a nutshell, how I got to where I am now.
Gabby Bradt
Back in 2017, I got to see you in your element at Florida Keys Community College. And Michael and I know Mick, your wife very well because she came to UNH years ago and you know, we stayed in touch for a long time and we're huge fans. So I wanted her on the podcast too. But I think we're running out of time for all the things. So that's going to be for season two. But I do remember thinking at the time when I went to visit and I was getting a tour of all the different clownfish aquaria and all of the maintenance that you had to do and all the plumbing and tubing. So you said that your degree was in the ornamental mariculture or it was in.
Travis Knorr
So the certificate is tropical ornamental mariculture certification. The degree is Marine Environmental Technology. It's a fantastic, really well rounded degree. It's basically, you know, how to be in the field doing research. And it's not just, you know, go collect the data and, you know, come back to the office with the data. It's process the data. It's how do you run an outboard motor?
You know, these technicians, they're going to be on the boat and they need to be able to learn to learn these things. And when things go wrong, they need to be able to save the day. And so my advisor at the time, Dr. Patrick Rice, he sort of built this program in this really diverse way because he saw what employers are looking for in these sort of green research candidates, you know, at this technician level, this two year degree level. And so he built that degree to sort of support what those employers are asking for.
Michael Chambers
So I have two questions. The first question is, can you show us all your fingers? Ah, that's good. Okay. Just wanted to make sure you had all ten playing with piranhas. You never know. The, the other question is, when you went to the Florida Keys to dive, did you go work for Dynasty Marine?
Travis Knorr
I get that question a lot. So I worked for Mike Freeman. Fantastic gentleman, no longer with us, but he's one of those salt of the earth guys that, you know, he was born and raised in the Keys, a true conch, as they called him. He fished for a living in his entire life in ornamental fishing specifically. So he actually grew up, you know, good buddies with the, the owner, the, the originator of Dynasty Marine. So they worked in parallel their entire lives. So I worked for Mike Freeman and boy, the things he taught me while being underwater, just how to, how to watch fish, how to understand the fish's behavior.
And it just, it sort of, that really built on top of my love and appreciation for fish and ornamental fish specifically.
Michael Chambers
Yeah, I actually had a similar experience. I was down in the Florida Keys in the early 90s, late 80s, early 90s. I was a diver and would do the same thing as you did and collect all these different organisms from the reef where aquaria would call in and say, we want a lobster, we want a nurse shark, we want an eel. And all the things you learn on how to capture each one of those organisms, then transport it to the surface, to the warehouse and then put in the tank where it doesn't eat everything and then pack it up and ship it in the mail. It's. It was one of the best educations I've ever had.
Gabby Bradt
As you said, Travis, you have been, you know, observing fish behavior and sort of, you know, you were one with the ecosystem, if you will. I. And this question is for both of you, you know, tag team it, but what was the impetus for you guys to move out of that into sort of, you know, not taking this stuff from the wild, but, you know, sort of producing them on your own? Travis, you mentioned it a little bit, but I kind of want to explore that a little bit more.
Travis Knorr
Well, I'd say the one particular species of fish that really pushed for me was the blue neon goby. So the blue neon goby is cute little guy. It's a striped black and blue striped fish. It's a slender, elongated. They kind of rest on boulder corals, masses, and they will hang out and grouper, snapper, other big predatory fish, will solicit cleaning, right? So they'll swim up to these small fish and they'll open their mouth and the blue neon goby will swim inside and it'll pick parasites off the gills, all the teeth, you know, it's really in there. At any moment, this grouper could close its mouth and that little fish could become dinner.
But because of that behavior, they are very popular in the aquarium trade, very popular in public aquariums. So they are in huge demand. They're also incredibly important for the natural ecosystem. So they're being collected in high numbers, sold all over there in demand, but they're not that hard to culture. So I thought to myself, well, why are we taking all these fish from the reef? Why are we impacting the reef, the health of the reef, when we could just be raising those in captivity, offsetting the demand and supplying an industry that's in need, and it's a really beneficial product for that industry. So that's.
I think that's what really tipped the.
Michael Chambers
Scale for me in a similar manner, too. I started to feel the pressure on the reef was. Was a bit much and thought about, well, I should be looking in, into how we can raise fish as opposed to take fish from the reef. And it just so happened that Hurricane Andrew came through. I'd been there for about two years. Hurricane Andrew came through and really hit southern Miami very hard, and it wiped out part of the facility in the Florida Keys or General or not. So the company was really struggling because of that.
And so I decided at that point in time, this was a Good time to go get a master's in mariculture. So I took off and went to Texas A and M and Corpus Christi, and I started doing offshore aquaculture research as well as I got sent down to a shrimp farm in Ecuador to do some research there, too.
Gabby Bradt
Can you define what we mean by ornamentals? Ornamental mariculture, just like it sounds.
Travis Knorr
It is kind of a clunky name, I feel ornamentals, but they are something that we appreciate the aesthetics of. That's really the origin of the name. I don't really like the tie that it's an ornament of sorts, but it really is something that we cherish the beauty of it. We cherish the aesthetics of it.
And so, you know, we bring it into the home. We care for it like any other pet that we would. So we. That's. We bring fish into the home that are pretty and attractive, interesting, and give us some sort of joy.
Gabby Bradt
Okay, so that's. Into our homes. So how is that, you know, would we call sharks in an aquarium ornamentals?
Travis Knorr
That's interesting. Well, I mean, yeah, so there's eels, there's sharks, there's all kinds of predators that, you know, maybe the aesthetic really isn't visual, it's behavioral. You know, we appreciate what they represent. You know, a predator on the reef is. It's impressive. Typically, the term ornamentals doesn't really apply to shark keeping, but, you know, I.
Gabby Bradt
Mean, we do do that. Right. Part of what you started with was for the trade. For the aquarium trade and so on. And, you know, more commercial big aquaria are. They do have all those beautiful fish that, you know, you can see in a coral reef, and they simulate coral reefs, and they bring in corals and anemones and all that stuff. So, you know, where.
Where do you draw that. That definition or that line?
Travis Knorr
That's an interesting. That's a. I like that.
I'm going to. I'm going to think about that a little more in the future.
And, you know, because. Because Dynasty is really well known for supplying sharks and big grouper and big snappers and eels even to public aquariums. That's really what sets Dynasty apart from, you know, the average Joes that are out collecting ornamental fish. Even though. Yeah, we would collect some. I've collected a couple guitar fish and some eels and stuff. And they would go certainly to public aquariums rather than a home aquarium.
But, yeah, there. So you're right to sort of, you know, investigate that because they do sort of get lumped together ornamental collecting and also public aquarium supply and so, in fact, my. My aquaculture business at home now we do supply blue neon gobies to the Key West Aquarium, which is something that I, you know, the trajectory from where I started, it really pleases me because that's exactly what I wanted to do from the gig. So Summerland ocean life was sort of a product of spending a lot of time at home during COVID At that point in my life, I was working for the Key West Aquarium. I was still working for the college in Key West. I usually have at least two jobs plus and am a student on top of that and a home business owner. So, you know, I have almost no free time, but it's fun.
It keeps me busy. So Summerland ocean life started out of, you know, spending time at home. And we do a lot of clownfish, we do gobies, cardinal fish, and we dabble with jawfish, which I can get into later. But yeah, so that's in a nutshell. Small ornamental fishes that are, you know, don't take up a lot of tank space because, you know, this is. This is just in my garage, basically.
Gabby Bradt
Yeah. I was going to say, could you tell us exactly where it is? I think I've been there.
Travis Knorr
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And as Michael is familiar with, you know, these. These homes in the Florida Keys are often stilted, right. So we deal with pretty routine storms. And because of that, we raise our houses up on stilts.
And then underneath is typically your carport, your garage, in my case, basically a garage. And that garage is now filled with a lot of aquariums, a lot of pumps, timed lighting, and refrigerator filled with fish food. And so that's where Summerlin Ocean Lake lives.
Michael Chambers
Awesome. So one of our best sellers at Florida brine shrimp was live rock. Do you grow live rock and sell that?
Travis Knorr
Not yet. Not yet. Not yet.
Gabby Bradt
Sorry, excuse me. Define live rock because I don't know what that is. Excuse me.
Travis Knorr
Oh, sure, sure. So, you know, your home aquarium relies on the same, you know, cascade of bacteria to, you know, take care of the. The fish waste. And so live rock is basically a home for that bacteria to live. And it can also have things growing on an epiphytic, you know, algae and all sorts of wonderful things that increase the biodiversity in your home. It actually helps the. The stability of a home aquarium in a big, big way.
And so live rock is basically, you know, it's allowed to. To populate with this bacteria in a saltwater environment that can be in your tank. It can be seasoned or somewhat cured in a way that bacteria grows in sort of this Somewhat controlled environment in a tank. Or it can actually be grown in the ocean on Elise, which I think is one of the more interesting passive aquaculture sectors that we have in ornamental aquaculture culture, specifically. Michael, maybe that's more of your. Your wheelhouse.
Michael Chambers
Well, exactly. And we thought about it extensively when I was down there, but fortunately I left. But to get a lease and put out certain rock on the bottom and let Mother Nature seed it out is really a great way to go. We would go out and dive and bring in what we call small rock and large rock. A small rock was five pounds. A large rock was. Was ten pounds.
And we essentially would get a dollar a pound for it as a diver. And then they would triple that amount and sell it to aquaria. But we would see when the storms would come, through hurricanes, especially all that live rock, which is just loose rubble in the ocean. Loose coral that gets broken off in storms. When a hurricane comes in, it'll tumble it up and put it on the bottom. And all of a sudden you see these white rocks because it's upside down, but then they regenerate. They regrow on the other side of the rock.
So it grows quite quickly. So if you just took down some substrate, cheap. Well, some substrate that would be good for aquarium and ornamentals, place it on the bottom on a lease, you could grow it, I think, very easily.
Gabby Bradt
Kind of like old cement or something. Could something like that work or is not. It's not quite the right substrate for it.
Travis Knorr
Concrete can work. You just have to take care of it. It sort of leeches influence on ph.
But once it's. Once it's seasoned out in the ocean long enough, it. Basically there's. In fact, there's a lot of new products on the market that are artificial rock that are some sort of concrete mixture. And, you know, you can look at those reef balls. You know, those are concrete. They use those for restoration.
So they add a little bit of soda ash to the concrete mixture to keep the ph normalized. Yeah.
Michael Chambers
Ideally, you want something that is porous, so organisms can kind of flow into it, but also less weight than concrete. So when you ship it, it's not such a heavy. It's an extra cost for that weight. So something lighter weight that will sink in your tank, not disappear in the ocean if the current's too strong. So, yeah, I think that in itself would be a fun project. We actually have a person at UNH that's making porous concrete. It's got a patent on it, and we've been putting it in the ocean here to see what settles on it.
And so far we've had some different macroalgae and we've had barnacles and some mussels and I've actually had some of these little pieces and put in my aquarium downstairs and didn't really do too much. So.
Travis Knorr
Yeah.
Gabby Bradt
So I wanted to ask you, when you were at Florida Keys and you, you were in this program, what were your other peers like? I mean, what was attract. So part of the reason I'm asking is I've been working with another colleague on trying to figure out what sort of educational opportunities and programs and things like that are available at least in New Hampshire or in New England for people who don't really know too much about aquaculture. But you know, as, as a field to get into. And so one of the questions that I always want to ask is, well, what were the demographics like when you started it's. But you know, in Florida and have you seen that change at all? And do you know like you started your business in, in the basement?
That seems pretty accessible, right? Like I could, you know, is that, is that something that, that you think really is, or is it just for the fortunate few or.
Travis Knorr
Well, yeah, so there's a lot of, there's a, kind of a lot to unpack there. But it's, it's actually a really nice story that, that college, because it's a destination college, draws, you know, ambitious, young, bright eyed students from all over the United States and some from abroad as well. Their programs are very good for the size of the school itself. It's a very small campus, but they have a lot of power. There's a lot of passion in the faculty and the administrators. So they've created a lot of programs that draw interest to a lot of different people on a variety of paths. Aside from the program that I was in, they also do quite a few other marine science programs.
They have marine engineering, which is, you know, propulsion and you know, this sort of like commercial trade application to marine environments. You know, think about people working on, you know, mechanics, engine mechanics on boats, shoreline construction type stuff, things like that. And then they, they had recently opened up a bachelor's program in marine resource management, which was the second component of my undergrad. And that program is absolutely fantastic. It preps students for basically, you know, that next level of being a field technician in research or even beyond that into a master's program, prepping you Even for a PhD if research and academia was really what you were looking for. And so to sort of answer your demographic a little bit more specifically. When I started say that there was kind of a lot of guys and a lot of dudes, you know, and that's, that's what happens in some programs.
But as I was there for, you know, four, five, six years, that changed. It was, it was really refreshing to see, you know, a lot of female interest in this marine science and this sort of open, opening up to, you know, this, this isn't just a realm for guys. This is, this is science. Women are in science and that is what the future looks like. And it was a breath of fresh air to see that while I was there.
Gabby Bradt
That's so cool. And one of the things that we are hoping to do is really open it up. Design workshops or programs for more women or non traditional age students and things like that. And so I will probably have to poke you and mix brain a little bit more about that as hopefully we get some funding in the near future. But because I feel like that's one of the things that, that keeps coming up a lot is. Yep, it's still, I wouldn't say still, but a lot of it feels very male dominated. And a lot of it I think has to do with the fact that we aren't getting all those other sort of techie skills or, or you know, when I started, I, I was never told you if you're going to go into marine biology and this, you need to go learn how to operate a boat and know the parts of the boat and figure out the, the motor and stuff like that.
And I'm still learning. At my very advanced age, I finally got my boating license. Right. Because, because it was never part of that sort of normalized education, at least for women at that time. If I would go out, if I needed to go out on a boat and sample, some other guy was driving the boat and I just was a passenger. And so, you know, that kind of leads me into that question of, you know, what were some of those skills that really helped you as you embarked on that and would you. And I feel like a lot of, a lot of women or underserved populations aren't getting those, those opportunities to, you know, to advance those skills, I guess.
But anyway, yeah, yeah.
Travis Knorr
So to address that, that college has a basic seamanship course now. Like I said, there's people coming from all over the U.S. you know, states with no ocean coastline. And so a lot of these students, they've never, they've never driven a boat. They've never, you know, they've never operated an Outboard engine. These, these are very, very fresh skills that these students are very green with. But this college addresses that very head on and very forward thinking that, you know, understanding that just because a student isn't from Florida doesn't mean that they should, they shouldn't have an advantage.
They shouldn't at least get up to par with the rest of the people that they're competing with for jobs. And so the college did a great job of getting these skills at an entry level so that these students could learn these things. They can learn how to read charts, how to navigate with the old school protractor and doing it really not assuming that everybody's gonna have a gps. They go right to the basics so that they can understand from the ground up and then apply the technology. Once they have that real, you know, foundational knowledge of being on the water, operating a boat and then doing the research on top of that. I haven't even gotten into the dive classes yet that they offer, but it was, you know, that they take those skills and then they put you underwater. So it's, it's just really cool the amount of, of learning and the accessibility of that learning and like you touched on.
It's, it's not just, you know, you know, these, these first year college students, it's non traditional students. I was, I was one of many non traditional students in that, in my own cohort and many so in others. So it's, it's a very diverse classroom.
Gabby Bradt
That's really cool. I also brought it up because Michael is also doing some online modules for aquaculture and stuff like that as a way to, you know, also engage broader audiences and bring them into the whole aquaculture, mariculture world and so on. So, you know, I feel like with these topics we could just, you know, yammer on forever. So but what is your, other than, what was it, the blue neon Gobi? What is your favorite, favorite slash easiest pretty fish that you, that you can grow?
Travis Knorr
Well, my favorite is not the easiest and that's what makes it my favorite. Right. So the, the. In the Florida Keys we have the yellow headed jawfish. Apistognathosaurufronts. My favorite fish on the planet is actually the, the blue spotted jawfish, which Sea of Cortez. So a colder fish, but they, they sort of occupy the same niche within their ecosystem.
They're a bottom dweller, they build caves. So they're sort of an ecosystem engineer. They dig little holes in the sand, they're burrows where the male. They live in a community. So you'll See these little speckled holes in a sand bed adjacent to, you know, some, some grass or a sort of rubbly zone about 25 to 50ft deep. And you don't usually see them, but if you're patient, you lay down on your belly in the sand next to one of these areas and you'll slowly see these little yellow heads creeping out of the holes in the sand and they'll start looking at each other and they'll dart back in the burrow and stuff. And so the male comes out, he's like, look how pretty I am.
The female's like, ooh, he is pretty. And so she follows him down in the hole, they do their thing and then the female goes back to her hole and he comes out and he's got a mouthful of eggs. So the male takes care of the eggs. They're a mouth brooding species. And from then on aquaculture of that species is pretty, pretty simple, right?
You've got big eggs, big larvae. They take the normal live feeds that most marine species do, so rotifers, copacodinoplyi, that sort of thing. Keeping a breeding adult pair in captivity is tricky because they, they occupy a lot of space. They need space to sort of stay away, but also be close enough that they can, you know, perform their courtship. And so typically with most fish, we're, we're handling the eggs, right? The, the fish are broadcast spawners or substrate spawners. They either release the eggs into the water column.
You can collect them with egg collect substrate spawners like the gobies and the clownfish, where they're laying the eggs on a tile or a pipe or something like that. Well, these guys, the males specifically hold the eggs until they hatch and then the larvae are free swimming in the water column. And so the trick there is to capture those larvae from the water without damaging them.
They're very, very fragile. And so very recently, just this year, the blue spotted jawfish has been successfully cultured in captivity. Full life cycle where the broodstock were held in captivity, the offspring were reached maturity, juveniles were settled and they are now adults reaching the market. So that's very fantastic. I will say that the yellow headed jawfish had been cultured in captivity previously, but it's, it doesn't seem to have been commercialized yet. In other words, you have a one and done sort of thing. Somebody as a hobbyist, they check the box, I did it, that was really cool.
They move on to the next thing or the production was so difficult that it hasn't been profitable yet. For a commercial operation in captivity. They're a wonderful fish. They don't require a ton of space. They do require a fairly deep sand bed. So you need about 4 inches minimum to keep them happy of sand, which is. Is actually a challenge in an aquarium.
Gabby Bradt
Wow, that sounds really cool. It sounds like the same issues, right, Michael, with more larger scale, you know, food, aquaculture. Right. Like you could, you know, you can try and figure out what species will grow well and so on and so forth, but at some point, if it's not profitable, people, you know, don't continue it further, which I think is a shame. Right. But I guess everybody has to make money. Darn it.
Michael, do you have any questions? I feel like I've been monopolizing all of the questions.
Michael Chambers
Real quick questions. How many students does the college John there graduate each year?
Travis Knorr
So that number varies dramatically, especially post Covid. There was. There was definitely an uptick. The college had a lot of steam going into that 2019 growing. They just, you know, underwent a name change where they went from Florida Keys Community College to the College of the Florida Keys. So a big, big marketing push. And they, you know, they're always drawing in students from all over the place and they've done a great job at keeping tuition very affordable, especially for in state students.
So I honestly, I'm very foggy with those numbers, but I can't say from my own experience, I wish Mick was here, she'd be able to tell you that. Exactly. But my own experience, a classroom is about 10 to 15 people, maybe 25 for some of the like, biology one oceanography type of courses where you're almost in like a small lecture hall. But really it's a very intimate setting. And the graduation class each year, well, they have. So that's another thing to mention is that they have a nursing program which is very, very important for the community and for the college itself. And so they graduate quite a few people there as well.
So that makes it a little bit more difficult for me to actually grab a number out of the air and say, this is what it is. I really couldn't say quite accurately.
Michael Chambers
Gotcha. Yeah, I wish when I was growing up they would have a program out there that I was aware of. I would have been there in a heartbeat.
Gabby Bradt
Me too.
Michael Chambers
Ironically, now I'm from Wisconsin too. I grew up in Ashton, Wisconsin, up north of Lake Superior. Whereabouts were you in Wisconsin?
Travis Knorr
Wisconsin Rapids. Right smack dab in the middle pretty much.
Michael Chambers
Yeah. So interesting enough, I graduated 1985 from University Wisconsin, Stevens Point. And back then, aquaculture Was not a word there. And now you know what the school is like today. It's one of their prominent educations now. It's the biggest and in the area. But again, you know, before my time and you ahead of your time to a certain degree with your interest in ocean and diving.
But anyway, as far as aquaculture in the Florida Keys is, do you see a lot of businesses there? Is there a lot of opportunity for aquaculture in the Keys? And does anybody do any sort of food, fish or shellfish, seaweed down there?
Travis Knorr
So that's, that's a great question. And there's a lot there. I'm going to start off by saying that it's becoming more and more difficult by the year. Everything is expensive and it's only getting more expensive. The locals have a really tough time, you know, working in the service industry or something that, you know, if you're not in a very robust paying job, life is, life is tough. You make sacrifices to live in the Keys, you know, that's understandable. It's. It's a small destination island chain.
There's always a vacationer that's, you know, willing to spend, you know, for that, that hotel or that Airbnb, and so that it drives prices up and that's the nature of things. And we understand that and we appreciate living there if we have to make some sacrifices. So that's, that's, you know, at the basic level, that's kind of what it looks like. So with that said, it's hard to find good help. It's hard to find people who are willing, you know, to earn that sort of pain point when they could move to the main state, they could move to another coastal area and cost of living is less, pay is about the same. So it's tricky. There's a few other.
Well, there's quite a few collectors. Of course, that makes sense because you can't really collect in many other places to that same degree. Some other collectors do some passive aquaculture things like live rock, things like algae. The college, of course, they culture fish, but they're different than a commercial producer, as far as I know. I might be the only one producing ornamental fish in the Keys right now. Don't quote me on that. But it's, it's possible.
There's, you know, so there's still, there's still a brine shrimp producer on cards out, as far as I know. And they do, they do raise some seahorses.
Michael Chambers
Oh, okay.
Travis Knorr
So that's something. Fish, seafood, aquaculture is. There's, there's kind of a resurgence, not, not fully realized yet. But there's a lot of investment in trying to bring some seafood aquaculture options directly to the restaurants in the Keys. Of course, there's a lot of, a lot of restaurants in the Keys, a lot of demand for seafood. We all know what fishing yields compared to aquaculture production look like at this point. And so there is a drive to raise some food fish in the Keys.
And I will say one of the species that are in the crosshairs is hogfish.
Michael Chambers
Oh.
Travis Knorr
In fact, the lab that I work at now is doing some research with hogfish, but there is a private interest in developing hogfish aquaculture in the Florida Keys. In fact, I don't know how much of this is public or I can share. But Michael, the place the shrimp farm used to work at. Yeah. No longer a shrimp farm. In fact it's, it's a coral farm. But they're doing, they're doing a couple different things there with some of that old infrastructure.
Michael Chambers
Is that where David Vaughn works?
Travis Knorr
That's right, that's right. So that's plant a million corals. Dr. David Vaughn.
Michael Chambers
I'll be dying.
Gabby Bradt
So there's coral farms. Are you, are, do you participate in any of that?
Travis Knorr
I do in fact. And so that was, I guess I left the College of the Florida Keys. I went to the Key West Aquarium first as the life support systems manager and then the operations manager. And in that time, you know, still being side by side with ornamentals, loving every aspect of it, bringing that awareness to the general public. But I did feel like I, I stepped away from that aquaculture goal that I, that long term goal that I had. And so from there I went to Moat Boy. It's IC2R3, International center for Coral Restoration and Research.
Research and restoration. IC2R3, right.
So a lot of acronyms in aquaculture and research, but in a nutshell, they specifically do research for corals, for coral health and disease for coral restoration in the Florida Keys. I was their life support systems manager for a couple years. And with a bachelor's degree I quickly realized that, hey, I need, I need a little bit more education if professional science really is where I'm going to land here. And so that's when I went to the University of Florida pursuing the master's degree that I'm in now. And so yes, I am in coral restoration still. I work for Reef Renewal usa, which is another startup coral restoration practitioner and they are working with folks in the Florida Keys and also with folks in Ruskin here Where this lab is Ruskin, Florida.
It's inland from Tampa Bay. And it is on the facility. On a facility that used to be one of the largest indoor freshwater ornamental aquaculture facilities in Florida, if not the United States. It's absolutely massive scale. And so they've repurposed a lot of this infrastructure to raise corals specifically for restoration. And so this is one of the first times that we're seeing the ornamental industry at scale turning around to do something beneficial for the Florida Keys coral reef ecosystem. And they're using that sort of, well, what's the term?
Efficiency at scale, that scale of efficiency to sort of make restoration more achievable. As we know, research funding, restoration funding. The money to do this is.
It comes and goes. And sometimes when it's there, it's really not that much anyway. And so being able to do this at scale and driving cost per coral down is really important if restoration is ever going to be successful. It can't cost us a ton of money to do it. It has to be something that's achievable with the funds that are available. So this Reef Renewal USA has done a great, great job of bringing in, you know, the people who did this for the ornamental industry and sort of using their thinking outside the box to turn around and sort of put that effort back on the coral reef restoration.
Gabby Bradt
That's really, really cool. And what a great way to sort of, you know, you've mentioned a couple of times people reusing or refurbishing existing infrastructure for new purposes. So that's really cool. What do you think is sort of, where do you see the most potential for aquaculture in general, at least in the U.S. i mean, the ornamental mariculture. I mean, I don't know, maybe you guys can give me better stats. Food, aquaculture, aquarium aquaculture.
Travis Knorr
Well, I'll, I'll say from my opinion, I'll just buckle quick here. I love aquaculture for the ornamental aquarium trade. It's where my heart is. It's, you know, it's what I've, I've loved my whole life. But there's a nervousness about the being a professional in the industry that this is, this is something people use their spare money for their, you know, this is a. It's something they do for enjoyment. It's not a commodity per se, where people need to eat people.
You have to farm fish to feed the planet. That's something that's reliable. And when I look at where I've positioned myself as a professional, I understand that it's A little dicey that it's, as far as, you know, if we're going to compare ornamental aquaculture to seafood production, you know, I'm taking some risk that maybe is a little bit more, you know, this sort of effort, put it towards seafood production is a little bit more guaranteed. Michael?
Michael Chambers
Well, yeah, I agree. I, I have eight tanks in my basement, so I, I can't escape ornamentals. I love them and grow them. And the most exciting thing for me is when I can grow, I grow a lot of cherry shrimp and freshwater ornamentals. They're much easier, but I can take them to a local pet store and I trade for items on the shelf or for fish in the tanks for what I grow and bring to them. So I get a real satisfaction of growing things and being able to barter and trade. But, yeah, you know, I've been looking more, leaning more towards the open ocean, for obvious reasons, because it's a great expanse in, in the US we have so much, so much water on all the US territories around the world where we can grow seafood.
We're just not doing it. And it's mostly because we're not allowed to do it. The permitting process is so challenging compared to other countries. And I was doing cage culture in the Gulf of Mexico back in the early 90s, thinking that this is going to be the future. We're going to have farms offshore and growing fish, and yet we're not much further along today as we were back then. So I hope and think, and I guess we'll have to see what happens, particularly now with this administration, if there will be changes allowing the bar to come down so people can actually get a permit. We have permits for offshore commercial fish farms in California, the Gulf of Mexico, New York, and actually here in New Hampshire.
So I think time will tell, hopefully in the next couple of years if someone actually gets a permit so we can start producing seafood for our country.
Gabby Bradt
So, but that brings me, I feel like I'm like the gnat that brings me always to. All three of us are really passionate about sort of growing this industry for whatever purpose, ornamentals, restoration, food, et cetera. But how do we get that message out to people and that education out to people that is that this is a viable path to pursue. And in my opinion, it's a noble pursuit, right? Like, whether it's to, like, what reef renewal is doing and, you know, sort of instead of extracting resource, putting some back, and same with, you know, growing your own growing seafood. I feel like one of the biggest stumbling blocks with all of this is a. Getting people to know it's a thing.
It can be a thing, it should be a thing. But where's, where's the money? Where's the education? What, you know, how do we. And I see little pockets like, you know, in the Florida Keys or in North Carolina, you know, Carteret Community College. College does a lot of similar things. But I feel like in order for anything to really expand and move forward in this country, more people need to know about it and want to do it.
And I think part of this podcast is trying to get that these are some options, but I feel like it's a big hurdle in terms of capital and investment and education. And maybe I'm just, you know, a little skeptical, but I don't know. In terms of the science, I think it's fantastic. I think everybody would be totally fascinated. Right. But any, any thoughts, any ideas on, on how we could, we could move the needle forward?
Travis Knorr
Well, I. It's an uphill battle, you're right. You know, in bringing science to the public has always been a challenge. That's why science communication is always, you know, it's a skill that researchers, anybody who's in science specifically, needs to be able to communicate their findings and sort of bring that to a level that the public can trust and understand. And it really doesn't help when there's so many industries that are very protective of themselves. And aquaculture has unfortunately come in conflict with some constituents who feel that wild caught fisheries are the dominant supplier of seafood and that commercialized component of the sector, it protects itself. And so there's, we see it all the time on social media, some, you know, mistruths, false information about seafood products, and gosh, that just needs to stop.
And I don't know how that happens, but I think the more that we bring the benefits of aquaculture to a level that people can understand, the more, the more the general public will be able to identify that misinformation for what it is. I think it's really important to sort of broaden the stroke of what we're doing here, you know, bringing aquaculture. Because if you think about aquaculture is very new in terms of agriculture at large. Aquaculture is very, very young. And so it seems new to the general public. Even though the folks in this room, we know aquaculture, this is inevitably what the future looks like. I think.
Yeah, we just need to continue to do what we're doing where we bring, we bring these discussions into the public space. Right.
Michael Chambers
And I would add, I think demonstration farms are really key and important, but it takes funding. And right now we have the Aquaphor, which is a demonstration farm and very fortunate to have a donor that's supporting it. But it's a, it's an aquaculture education training and demonstration facility. In fact, we had people out this weekend from the Island Institute up in Maine, Chen, cb, Gabby, who we know quite well. And so they want to do one up in mid coast Maine, which would be fantastic if we could break into Maine waters. But again, like what you're doing, Travis, you know, obviously as a private company, you might not want to share your secrets. But if for other aquaculture businesses, I think having something where you can bring the public, bring tourists, regulatory people, entrepreneurs, investors to learn and see what the potential is.
And that's an important component that we can spread good information and try to shoot down some of the misinformation that's out there.
Gabby Bradt
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think that would, I feel like a lot of the people we've spoken to on this podcast, a lot of us are, you know, we're, we're in the industry either because we're researchers or, you know, we came at it in a different way, got exposed to it, but I feel like all of us had had some sort of hands on exposure to it. And I do think that's, you know, seeing a facility like, you know, like the reef restoration in action would be cool. Or, you know, having a summer class, you know, for growing clownfish would be a neat way, you know, to expose, you know, younger children, K through 12, to that kind of stuff. And I, the hands on aspect of it, I feel is really, really important because you can look at all the YouTube videos, you can, you know, look at all the documentaries, but until you're kind of in it, you don't get it really. Right. It's kind of like walk in my shoes for a minute and then you'll sort of start to drink the Kool Aid type thing. But, but yeah, I, I love, I wish we had a lot more time because I would love to ask you more about, you know, are a lot of your, the skills that you're doing now.
Could, you know, if you decided that ornamentals wasn't the way to go go, you know, could you transfer a lot of that to growing seafood and stuff if you have like two minutes, maybe.
Travis Knorr
Yes, yes. In fact, so that, that's kind of why the college and Key west chose their ornamental mariculture technician program. You know, it has that sort of tie to the Florida Keys, you know, Coral reef track ornamental fish. It has that backing, but it uses clownfish as a model to teach aquaculture skills so that they can do this on a small, achievable, financially viable scale. And that, you know, you don't need giant tanks to raise clownfish. You can still teach nutrition of broodstock. You can still teach nursery practices of hatching. Altruistic. Interesting. Help me out, Michael.
What's the word I'm reaching for? Altricial. Altricial larvae. Right. Very undeveloped larvae that don't have eyes. They can't eat. They're very fragile.
You know, all these things are common, especially with marine species. Michael touched on that before. The freshwater fish are a little bit easier, but that's really the frontier of aquaculture is getting into the marine species. And so, like I was saying, they use these clownfish so that they can teach all these skills at a scale that is viable for that classroom setting on a small campus.
It's very achievable. You know, I've taken that. That skill set with me. I can, you know, I can go into other sectors of aquaculture with those same skills. You know, there's some differences, but the concepts are there. The live feeds, we're raising algae to feed to the zooplankton. The zooplankton are flying, fed to the larval fish. Right. That's a very common pattern with all of these different species.
It's almost in. You know, it's a recipe. Insert species here. You got to figure out what it eats. But beyond that, the skills are there.
Gabby Bradt
Yeah, that's very cool. And Michael, do you think, well, you already have these skills. You've been, you know, sort of puttering in your basement with ornamentals for a long time.
Michael Chambers
But I think people like Travis are perfect for aquaculture because you. You came up and you started to learn all these different trades.
Electrical, plumbing, building things. And. And that's what you really need to know. You need to be a trade of a jack of all trades to be successful in aquaculture, because you have to know all of this stuff, let alone how to be a business owner. That's a whole other thing. But it's. It. It uses a very broad set of skills, and it's not easy to learn those overnight.
It takes a long time to gain that knowledge and to apply it.
Gabby Bradt
So, Travis, last question. Would you say that Michael is right, that jack of all trades is probably the best thing you can prepare for, for a future in aquaculture?
Travis Knorr
I'm not going to say no. It's very Commonly accepted that, yes, you need diverse skills, but, you know, aquaculture is a trade itself. There are entry level positions for people who are harvesting fish, for people who are feeding fish, and that you can get started and build your skill set, you know, step by step. You don't have to come into this, you know, as a person who is a former plumber or formal electrical engineer, a former business owner. I, you know, I have those skills, you know, just out of luck and stumbling around in a very blind career path. But aquaculture should be considered as a trade. You know, the trades are back, people are getting back into trades.
They're, they're understanding that you don't have to have a four year degree in all circumstances to be successful. If you work hard, if you, you know, you're willing to do stuff and learn that, you know, you can start building your skills that way. And I think it's an excellent example. And so, yeah, to sort of summarize, no, you can just want to learn, want to work hard. That's all you need. And you can get into aquaculture.
Gabby Bradt
I love that. So I don't want to mess it up. So I think we will say thank you so much. That was a great way to end it. And like I said before, we could talk and talk about this stuff for a long time. It's really, it's so cool and fascinating. It's great to, to have had this opportunity to chat it up with you, Travis.
So thank you.
Travis Knorr
My pleasure.
Michael Chambers
Thank you for your. Thank you so much for your time and allowing us to get to know you. I love what you're doing and I wish you the best and your endeavors in the Florida Keys and your business.
Travis Knorr
Thank you so much. Yeah, I appreciate it. And keep doing what you're doing because this is really important, you know, as we touched on communicating what aquaculture is to the public, it's incredible, incredibly important for the future.
Mike Coogan
Thanks for listening. Each episode is sustainably cultured here at the University of New Hampshire and produced by Talia Katreczko. Get Aquacultured is funded by the EE Blue Aquaculture Literacy Grant and supported by NOAA and the North American Association for Environmental Education. Subscribe today and listen to more episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you heard, leave us a review. We'll catch you next time on Get Aquacultured!.