So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

For the holidays, we're sharing a couple of our favorite episodes from the year. 

Enjoy this encore conversation with Bob Burg!

Bob Burg is the storyteller, with co-author John David Mann, behind The Go-Giver, a Wall Street Journal, and BusinessWeek bestseller that has sold over a million copies. Bob is a former TV personality and top-producing salesperson. He speaks with corporations, organizations, and at sales and leadership conferences worldwide on topics central to The Go-Giver. And if you weren’t aware, there is an entire Go-Giver series that includes Go-Givers Sell More, The Go-Giver Leader and The Go-Giver Influencer. He is also author of Adversaries into Allies and Endless Referrals. In his personal time, Bob is an unapologetic animal lover and serves as part of a South Florida rescue, foster, and adoption organization.

Learn more about our guest:
Love So Much To Say? Let us know! Drop a review, give us 5 stars in your favorite podcast app, and tell us what made you laugh, think, or just go “yep, that’s me.” Every review helps us reach more awesome humans who want to make legal…well, human. 

Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Where we explore behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We're your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches, Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we're here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real struggles of balancing work with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. We're bringing you real stories, candid conversations, and smart insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer - what makes you human? So whether you’re navigating billable hours or breaking glass ceilings in a woman-owned legal practice, this legal podcast is for you. Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human). 

Bob Burg: [00:00:00] Giving and receiving are actually not opposite concepts. The challenge is the world pretty much hits us from everywhere and every angle and, and on every medium and on every platform and on TV and in the movies. It gives us this, that you're either a, a selfless giver or you're some greedy, horrible. No, I mean that's, again, that's a, a premise.
Bob Burg: We need to always question. Because it's not true.
Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started. So today we are talking about the book, the Go-Giver, written by Bob Berg and John David Mann.
Megan Senese: This book has like a special place in my heart. I'm like, and I have it. I have it right here. This is [00:01:00] really one of the first kind of business books that I read, which sounds ridiculous because I didn't read it until not that long ago, maybe two, three years ago. And so we're just super, super excited to have Bob.
Megan Senese: Jen, did you wanna kind of jump in?
Jennifer Ramsey: A hundred percent agree with you? So the Go-Giver is written in a parable form versus a traditional business book, which for me makes it much more memorable and resonates A little bit more. Just a couple of my, my personal favorite quotes from the book that I wanna share with everybody.
Jennifer Ramsey: You give, give, give. Why? Because you love to. It's not a strategy, it's a way of life. I love that because, um, speaking to Bob before we started the podcast and. That really is what Megan, I think you would agree what our ethos is for our company. We actually love to do this stuff. It's not like, oh, we should do this.
Jennifer Ramsey: And then one other one, and this really is at the core, again, of what we believe revenue [00:02:00] generation is great. It's really about building relationships. So my second favorite quote is, when you base your relationships. In business or anywhere in your life on who owes you what. That's not being a friend, that's being a creditor.
Jennifer Ramsey: And this is in another little vignette in the book, and I love this one because it speaks to, um, all of my insolvency restructuring and bankruptcy lawyers out there. They'll, they'll know what that means. So just a couple of excellent little excerpts from the book. So now the moment we've been waiting for, welcome to our guest.
Jennifer Ramsey: Bob Berg,
Bob Burg: Jen and Megan. So great to be with you both. Thank you for having me.
Jennifer Ramsey: So, as I mentioned in in the intro, the Go-Giver is written as a parable, which makes the lessons much more digestible, resonant and memorable. I'm curious why you and John David chose this format instead of a traditional business book.
Bob Burg: Well, so my first book came [00:03:00] out back in the nineties. It was called Endless Referrals, and the subtitle was Network Your Everyday Contacts Into Sales. You were kind enough to mention that book that's, that's from a long time ago. There's been a few upgrades and, and, and so forth reprints. But, uh, it was a, a how to book that basically was for entrepreneurs and sales professionals who knew they had a fantastic product or service, knew it brought excellent value.
Bob Burg: Uh, to their customers and clients, but they didn't necessarily feel comfortable or confident going out into their local communities and building the kinds of relationships that would result in people wanting to do business with them directly and or refer them to others. So it was the how to guide. It was a system.
Bob Burg: What is a a system? Well, I personally define a system. As the process of predictably achieving a goal based on a logical and specific set of how-to principles, the key being predictability. If it's been proven that by doing A, you'll get the desired result of B, you know that all you need to [00:04:00] do is A and continue to do A, and you'll get the desired result of B.
Bob Burg: Fine. It was a book right? Now, I'd always loved reading parables ever since I'd gotten in sales 40 years ago. And because parables are stories, right? And they, I think stories connect on a deeper level than a a how to, uh, they all have their place, but there's more of a connection, and I think it's easier in a sense.
Bob Burg: For, for people to accept and receive a, a basic concept when it's through a, a parable. But I'm not a parable writer. I'm a how-to writer and, and so it was something I kind of put aside for a few years. In the early two thousands, I met John David Mann because he was the editor in chief of a magazine. I was writing a monthly column for.
Bob Burg: And even back then, John had a superb reputation as a masterful storyteller and writer. And as I got to know him as a, my editor in chief, uh, boy, the guy's character is great, fantastic human being. And I thought, you know what? [00:05:00] I want to team up with John 'cause he can, he could take this idea and just Wow.
Bob Burg: Make it special. And, uh, so I asked him, and, and, uh, you know, fortunately he said yes to it and we got together. He was, you know, he was the writer. He was the storyteller, believe me. That, uh, you know, I couldn't have made that book sing like he did. And, um, the, the funny part was it only took us a few months really to, to write.
Bob Burg: Um, but over the course of the next year. We went through 24 rejections from New York publishing houses before the 25th one portfolio of, of an imprint of Penguin Random House, uh, decided to take us on and they turned out to be the perfect publishing partner. They've been wonderful. So it all works out as it works out.
Megan Senese: Oh, I love that. I love that story. Well, I mean, it's, it's talk about resilience too, right? On the 25th one is when you got your Yes. And I mean, I think what, you know, we talked about beginning of how. I didn't wanna read any how to books. I didn't have time for how to book, but I had time for a story. Mm-hmm.
Megan Senese: And so I think that [00:06:00] part, um, speaks to me and it speaks to our clients, to our lawyers, when like, you need to, you need to read this. So that you can get a sense of, you really walk through the character's shoes, you feel what they're going through, um, and it resonates regardless of what industry that you're in.
Megan Senese: And so it's, it's come into my life a lot as part of the ethos that Jen said of our business and mixed sales feel approachable, particularly for lawyers when sales is an icky, icky word. Right. Your lawyers are trained to become the expert in the law.
Bob Burg: Yeah. They're, they're, they're, um, wonderful practitioners.
Bob Burg: And yet, as you said, when it comes to the, the fact that they need to sell legal services, you know, that's an ick, right. And total ick. And you know, and there's a, there's a reason for it, and that is the way. First of all, the way sales is portrayed in, you know, in, in the me, you know, in the media and, and people have had [00:07:00] some bad sales experience, you know, experience and you know everything.
Bob Burg: But, so here's the thing, one of the things I always say is, it's not that people don't like selling, it's, they don't like what they think selling is. So if you're a lawyer and you believe that selling is about trying to convince somebody to buy something they don't want or need. Which, by the way, is not selling.
Bob Burg: That's called being a con artist. Right? So, so, so of course you think it's icky, it's incongruent with your values of, right. But let's instead look at what selling really is. It's simply discovering. What the other person does need, want, or desire in helping them to get it. Interestingly enough, the old English root of the word cell was lan, which meant to give.
Bob Burg: So when you're selling, you're literally giving. Now someone could say, wait a second, Berg, that's really, you know, that's clever of you and John David, man, you know, selling his giving. But you know, but what are you really, you're selling? What are you really giving? [00:08:00] Well, let's look at that. Let's say you have a potential client, prospective client in front of you.
Bob Burg: You're gonna have a sales conversation and they're gonna decide whether or not to retain you. So you are selling, what exactly are you giving? I suggest you're giving them time, attention, counsel. Education, empathy, and ultimately exceptional value. So if you see selling that way as a lawyer, now you look at it not as a, not as a necessary evil, but something righteous you are doing in order to serve another human being.
Megan Senese: I mean, we could end
Jennifer Ramsey: the podcast right there. That was so good.
Megan Senese: It's a struggle. You know, Jen and I are. We are trained business developers, and it's, it becomes a struggle when we try to talk to lawyers. People are so afraid of being viewed as that icky salesperson, car salesperson. I'll throw in car, you know, floor mats as the extra, that's the value that people just don't ask questions at all.
Megan Senese: Right? And so you don't [00:09:00] even get to that kind of being curious or figuring out what the offer is and how can they serve people. People are terrified of being categorized as a salesperson.
Bob Burg: Well, they're, they're lucky to have the two of you as their leaders in this case. Uh, you know, they're lucky to be your clients because you're helping them to really overcome something that's, that's a story they've told themselves in their mind.
Bob Burg: That they're seeing is truth, but it's really nothing more than a belief. What is a belief? It's a subjective truth. It's the truth As one understands the truth to be, which means it could be the truth, but often it isn't. And so really it's, it's helping them reframe this and, you know, helping them to present themselves and what they're doing in a certain way so that it doesn't come across as though they're being.
Bob Burg: Sticky, but instead as though they're serving. And then again, it is also up to that other person to be able to take them up on that, on that offer.
Jennifer Ramsey: And it's helping people get out of their own head.
Bob Burg: Yeah, that's [00:10:00] exactly what it is. And we've all been there, you know, we've all been there, we're in in different areas.
Bob Burg: You know, it's, uh, li you know, life is a set of belief systems and these are beliefs that from the time we're, you know, born from our upbringing, environment, schooling, news, media, television shows, movies, popular culture, cultural morays, we're, we're hit with all these. What's right and what's not from society.
Bob Burg: And you know, often we don't believe that. We think we're operating out of conscious choice and free will, when really it's more like if you ever watch the first movie, the Matrix, you know, only instead of machines. It's, it's the information we're given, right? And so we're, we're operating, uh, you know, from a, you know, a set of beliefs that don't necessarily serve us.
Bob Burg: It doesn't allow us to serve others, so, so it's really becoming conscious of this. It's questioning our premises and it's asking, okay, why do I believe this is true? Where did I learn that? From whom did I learn [00:11:00] that? And where or from whom did they learn that? Does this match up with universal laws and principles of, of success?
Bob Burg: Okay. And so when we, when we start to question these premises, now we're making the unconscious conscious. And it's only at that point that we're able to, you know, overcome a challenge that we currently have.
Jennifer Ramsey: Coming back to the Go-Giver, what's great about the Go-Giver is that it gives five stratospheric laws of success.
Jennifer Ramsey: So, and each one has its own poignant tagline, if you will. And so the first law that we're introduced to in the book is the Law of Value. Which in a nutshell suggests that you give more in value than you take in payment, which is okay, yes, we've got that.
Bob Burg: Which, which sounds, that can sound counterintuitive though at first.
Bob Burg: 'cause it sounds almost like a, a recipe for going out of business. You have more in value than you take in payment. So you just, you just, until you understand the difference between price and value
Jennifer Ramsey: right. I can tell you [00:12:00] and, and, and my lovely business partner Will, will probably agree with me. I, I struggle with this.
Jennifer Ramsey: Okay. And I know that our lawyers and business owners struggle with fearing that they'll give, actually no, I don't struggle. I want to give things away for free. Okay. Yeah, you do. Megan's always telling me no. So let's, so talk to us, Bob, about. Lawyers and business owners who might struggle with fearing that they will give away too much for free.
Jennifer Ramsey: Okay. How do they balance? Generosity of giving with running a profitable business.
Bob Burg: Okay, so let's look at the law itself and then come back to the, the free thing, okay? 'cause, 'cause the law value says right, your true worth is determin about how much more you given value than you take in payment. Mm-hmm.
Bob Burg: Price. We've gotta understand the difference between price and value. Price is a dollar figure. It's a dollar amount. It's finite. It is what it is. It's the fee, it's okay. Value. On the other hand, is the [00:13:00] relative worth or desirability of a thing, of something to the end user or beholder. In other words, what is it about this thing, this product service concept?
Bob Burg: Uh, legal advice, what have you, that brings so much worth or value to another human being that they will willingly exchange their money for it and be glad they did. While you make a very healthy profit outside the business, let's say you hire an accountant to do your taxes, she charges you a thousand dollars.
Bob Burg: That is her. Her fee, literally her price. But what's the value she provides? She saves you 5,000 in taxes. She saves you countless hours of time, and she provides you and your family with the security and peace of mind of knowing it was done correctly. Okay? She gave you well over $5,000 in value in exchange for a thousand dollars price.
Bob Burg: You feel great about it because you receive much more than what you paid for, but she also made a very healthy profit because it, it was worth it to her. To exchange her time, her energy, her [00:14:00] knowledge, her wisdom for that thousand dollars in any free market based exchange. When I say free market, I simply mean no one is forced to do business with anyone else, okay?
Bob Burg: In any free market based exchange, there should always be two profits, the buyer or client profits and the seller, or. Profits because each of them come away significantly better off afterwards than they were beforehand. Okay? So let's say you have a, a lawyer, it could be anything that they, they do okay?
Bob Burg: Whatever, whatever their specific pr, uh, area of, of law. So whatever they're, they're doing, I guarantee you. They are giving more in value or use value to that person. Okay. Let's say they're, uh, let, let's say they're an estate planner or something, okay? They're in estate planning and they're helping that person to feel safe, secure.
Bob Burg: Comfortable helping them to make a lot more money eventually than what they're paying. They're allowing that person to be able to leave a [00:15:00] legacy, to protect their family, to protect their loved ones. Okay? So whatever this, this lawyer is charging, they're giving a lot more in value than the money they're receiving.
Bob Burg: They didn't give it away. They still made a very nice profit for doing that. Okay. Again, that is, that is, that is how business works. Everybody comes away better off afterwards than they were beforehand. Okay? That's actually the meaning of that law itself. Now, when we talk about free stuff, free, free by the way, is basically a strategy.
Bob Burg: Because I, there's nothing wrong with that. That's part, it's, it's a part of a strategy. You, you're providing some value so that people can get to want more to Yeah. And well, and so they get to have confidence in you. Right. And when they have confidence in you, in the value that you've provided, like you said, they want more value.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yes.
Bob Burg: And they're gonna pay for this value. So there's, there's never anything about being a Go-Giver that is sacrificial or [00:16:00] self-sacrificial, or door Matty or martyr. Okay? You understand that when you place your focus. On providing immense value to others. Okay. What not only is it, is it the most fulfilling way of conducting a a practice, it's the most financially profitable way as well.
Megan Senese: I just feel like I'm learning so much and just right before we, we got on, Jen and I were talking, we're, our business is in this kind of weird little like tipping point. Do we hire someone? Do we not hire someone? And so we were talking about how can we impact more people? In the Go-Giver way to be able to continue to, to provide more value.
Megan Senese: And we, you know, we have to bring in more help to help us so that we can continue to do that. But this is how we're trying to think about our business all the time, every day. What we see a lot, um, particularly with our, with our women lawyers, is being open to, to receiving what is being given to you, right.
Megan Senese: And the opportunities that are, that are allowed. And I, and I think a lot of times people sometimes [00:17:00] are. Uncomfortable with that or, or even break it down even smaller. Right. Sometimes people will, I don't like talk about myself. Some people will like to compliment me and I'm like, oh, you know, I, I, I feel like a, you know, a, a blockage come up.
Megan Senese: And the quote is, if you don't let yourself receive, you're shutting down the flow. So what is your advice for, for the lawyers when. They're happy to give. I think I'm, I'm actually very happy to give, but I feel uncomfortable with receiving.
Bob Burg: So again, the law itself, the law of receptivity, says the keto effect of giving is to stay open to receiving.
Bob Burg: What does this mean? It's understanding that yes, you breathe out, you also have to breathe in. It's not one or the other. It's an, and you breathe out carbon dioxide, you breathe in oxygen. You breathe out, which is giving you breathe in, which is receiving, giving, and receiving are actually not opposite concepts.
Bob Burg: They're simply two sides of the very same coin, and they work in tandem. The challenge is that the, when [00:18:00] we kind of alluded to this a little earlier, the world does not give us that positive message about prosperity and abundance, and in fact, the world pretty much hits us from everywhere and every angle and, and on every medium and on every platform and on ev, on tv and in the movies.
Bob Burg: It, it gives us this, that you're either a, a selfless giver. Or you're some greedy, horrible receiver. No, I mean that's, again, that's a, a premise we need to always question because it's not true. And so, you know, what we need to do is, aside from, from constantly checking our premises, I would also suggest making a study, a proactive study of prosperity.
Bob Burg: Now, there are a number of terrific authors. Who write on this, who blog on this? Who, who do you know seminars on this and who, who have videos on this? People like Randy Gage. People like David Nagle, people like Sharon Lecter, [00:19:00] people like Lisa Peterson, uh, and Ellen Rogan, Ken Honda, the late Bob Proctor. You know, these people all have wonderful materials and I, and I'll tell you, 99.9% of what they teach is just how to get past the blocks.
Bob Burg: How to get past those, those mental blocks. See, it, it comes out physically, Megan, like you were saying, but it, but it's all mental, it, it's all, uh, and it's all unconscious. So by, so, so one of the things, and let's, let's talk about, uh, compliments, like you said, and one of the things I suggest is building on your small successes.
Bob Burg: Okay? Which means when someone compliments you, okay? Instead of going, oh, no, no, no. What you do is you go. Well, thank you. That's very kind. Now practice that a bunch of times. Do it in your head. Do it out loud. Practice it so that when the time comes that this happens, you are not saying or doing it for the first time.
Bob Burg: You're getting that [00:20:00] feeling. You already have that feeling. You've rehearsed it like an astronaut rehearses hundreds of missions before he or she goes out into space, right? And so you say thank you. That's very kind. Or somebody offers to pour a cup of coffee. Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you. Or someone, you know, offers you to go through the door first.
Bob Burg: And what happens is, as you're getting used to accepting these, these compliments or, or it could be anything or, or money or deeds or whatever it happens to be, uh, you, you get more and more victories.
Jennifer Ramsey: It's like gratitude, right? It's like gratitude is like the antidote to giving right. Like you, you like say thank you when, when, when you are receiving.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. Like thank you gratitude. It's a beautiful response.
Bob Burg: So one thing I had to do, and speaking of gratitude in there, 'cause that's very important, is I always had this, this idea that I had to, no matter who I was. Eating with that, I always had to pick up the check, so I'd be with a group of people, whatever.
Bob Burg: Now why is [00:21:00] that? And this is before I had the money to be able to do that comfortably. Okay? The reason why was because when I was a kid, my dad and my folks came from poverty and they ended up having a good business, and they just very kind, generous people. They always picked up the check, especially my dad always picked up the check.
Bob Burg: So in my world, the Berg family picked up the check. Now again, this is a story I told myself. It was a belief, it was a subjective truth. There's no reason that had to be, and my folks could afford to do that. By the time they were doing that, I couldn't. But my belief was I had to pick up the check until some finally, somebody took me aside and they said, you know, Bob, when you do that, first of all, you know, you're disrespecting everybody else who wants to maybe pick up the check or who wants to, you know, and and so forth.
Bob Burg: And you're also really putting yourself in a position that you can't afford to be in. Right. And I thought about it, oh my gosh, they're absolutely right. Why am I doing that? Is it, you know, and it, it wasn't an ego thing. It wasn't, it was my belief system. I'm supposed to [00:22:00] pick up the check. So once I got past that, I could, now, it was uncomfortable at first.
Bob Burg: Don't get me wrong. Right?
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah, right. It was
Bob Burg: uncomfortable. Somebody would offer to pick up the check and have to say, oh, thank you. I appreciate that. That's very kind. Oh, the first couple times it hurt. And then, right. So, you know, it's like anything else. We're all human, we're all, we all have these stories.
Bob Burg: We tell ourselves based on our belief systems and to the degree that we can, again, make the unconscious conscious, that's the degree that we can get past that
Jennifer Ramsey: change. Mm-hmm.
Bob Burg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And
Jennifer Ramsey: flexing muscle memory. Yeah. We have the saying in yoga, I. I'm a big yogi and it's like, practice makes practice.
Jennifer Ramsey: Mm-hmm. It's like not practice makes perfect. Right. Practice makes practice. You just keep, like you, what you were saying, Bob, you just keep doing it over and over again until the uncomfortable moves.
Bob Burg: Yeah, exactly.
Jennifer Ramsey: To the comfortable, to the, even like then it, you know, it, maybe it goes back into the unconscious like you just now, this is your new way of life.
Bob Burg: And what you were saying about gratitude, very important [00:23:00] because gratitude is basically the trait that makes everything else possible.
Jennifer Ramsey: Hmm.
Bob Burg: Right. Because, and you've got to be able to receive with a sense of gratitude.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yes.
Bob Burg: And you've got to feel that. And those who express gratitude to others, and, and this is thanking people all the time for, for whatever it is they might do, it's thanking the, uh, the executive assistant, you know, for, for being helpful or for maybe you'd like them to be helpful, right?
Bob Burg: But it's sending them a, a handwritten thank you note, or it's, it's telling their boss about how fantastic they are. So gratitude is absolutely a key to, to success.
Jennifer Ramsey: Curious if you were rewriting the Go-Giver today for the generations to come? Is there anything you would add or emphasize differently?
Bob Burg: No.
Bob Burg: The principles themselves are, are pretty ti you know, and Jono and I, we say we didn't make up these principles, you know, we gave them names and we did, but it's nothing that we invented. So, no, the, the principles are timeless. What I would've done [00:24:00] though, is I would've made sure to make the point that.
Bob Burg: Being a go-getter is not the opposite of being a Go-Giver. We say being a go taker is the opposite. We love go-getters because go-getters take action. They get things done, and we all know you can have the nicest thoughts, best ideas, greatest of intent, but without action, nothing gets done. So the, the point where Joe said to Gus when he said, uh oh, when, when, uh, when Gus said, Joe, you're, I will, I'll say this for you.
Bob Burg: You're a real go-getter. And Joe says, oh, thank you. And Gus says, don't thank me yet. It, the reason why that was, is because Joe was also a go taker at that point. We say, be a go-getter and a go giver. Just don't be a go taker.
Megan Senese: So if people wanna know more about you, they can visit berg.com. They can learn more about your books.
Megan Senese: Uh, they can sign up for your daily Impact email. They can go to Go Giver Academy and Success Vault. We appreciate you showing up and we're so, so thankful that you were able to be on, and that we were able to [00:25:00] share such a, like, a lovely message with. The legal community and we, we thank you.
Bob Burg: Well, the two of you are wonderful.
Bob Burg: I appreciate you both very much.
Megan Senese: If you are looking for more information about how to grow your business, visit us at www.stage.guide. Sharing is caring. Send this podcast link to someone you love.