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Is your leadership costing you connection?
In this honest and thought-provoking conversation, Walter Kim, President of the National Association of Evangelicals, joins ECFA President Michael Martin to explore the emotional and relational challenges leaders face behind the scenes. From the illusion of transparency to the power of biblical vulnerability, this episode uncovers what it really takes to build meaningful friendships in ministry—and why you can’t lead well without them.
Whether you're a pastor, nonprofit leader, or executive, you'll find practical insight and deep encouragement to help you lead from a place of connection, not isolation.
About Walter Kim:
About Walter Kim:
Walter Kim is President of the National Association of Evangelicals. He earned his PhD at Harvard, was a chaplain at Yale, and has served in diverse pastoral ministries. He is on the board of World Relief, Christianity Today, and The Salvation Army, USA. He is often sought out for his theological and cultural commentary on issues facing the church and society.
Additional Resources:
Additional Resources:
If this conversation resonated with you, don’t keep it to yourself—like, share, and subscribe for more insights on healthy leadership. Drop a comment below with your biggest takeaway, and keep the conversation going!
Creators and Guests
Guest
Walter Kim
Walter Kim is President of the National Association of Evangelicals. He earned his PhD at Harvard, was a chaplain at Yale, and has served in diverse pastoral ministries. He is on the board of World Relief, Christianity Today, and The Salvation Army, USA. He is often sought out for his theological and cultural commentary on issues facing the church and society.
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
BTS Walter Kim Full Episode Mix
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[00:00:00] Walter Kim: How do we ensure that as the demands of leadership increase that we are actually also increasing in the sustaining foundation of, uh, intimacy with the Lord? You don't do these things when you're emotionally tapped out. You really do need to be connected deeply. And connections with friendships and communities of faith tapped into the flourishing that God would have, uh, for us and the flourishing that we seek to lead and proclaim to others.
[00:00:36] Ryan Gordon: What if the very thing that's keeping leaders isolated isn't their schedule, but their fear of being known? In this powerful conversation between ECFA, president Michael Martin and Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, we explore the relational cost of leadership and the surprising freedom that comes through biblical vulnerability.
Something Walter shared that has really stuck with me is how too often we settle for surface level transparency that manages our image, when what we really need is the kind of Christ-like vulnerability that leads to deeper connection and healing and empathy. This is a conversation every leader needs to hear, so let's dive in.
[00:01:20] Michael Martin: Well, hey Walter, it's good to see you. Welcome back to the ECFA podcast.
[00:01:26] Walter Kim: Michael, thank you for the invitation. Always love connecting with you.
[00:01:30] Michael Martin: Yeah, always. And I say welcome back because you were actually one of our very first guests ever on the Behind the SEAL podcast, so it's great to have you back with us.
Mm, thanks. Yeah. And, um, you know, you have been, you and NAE have been really just such a great friend to ECFA. And, uh, in that vein, I'm excited because today our conversation is about friendship and the importance of spiritual friendship and what that means to leaders. So anyway, it just feels like a perfect tee up to have you here.
[00:01:58] Walter Kim: Hmm, that sounds great.
[00:02:01] Michael Martin: Well, hey, so since it's been a minute since you've been, uh, with us, a, a lot of life has happened, uh, here in the last couple years. I think you and I were reflecting last time that we were together. We're part of, uh, we jokingly sort of call it, we can laugh now, I guess, but the, uh, pandemic President's Club, right.
So it's like we came into our role right around that season and boy, in some ways we, none of us knew what we were signing up for, but just. Yeah, catch us up to speed on what's been happening in the, in the last few years. How has, especially leading in such a season of significant disruption and challenge and all those things, how is God using that to shape you as a leader?
[00:02:38] Walter Kim: Yeah, Michael, I mean, yes,
we absolutely pandemic presidency. The challenges that arose not just with respect to a virus, but with respect to all the disruptions that were happening in society more broadly and in the church. Whether it was areas of polarization that, uh, are deeply inflected by our political [00:03:00] polarization or broadly cultural ideological tensions that exist, or racial issues that arose in our country.
Even understanding the history of our country became. And is, uh, continuously, uh, contended and then understanding the place of religion, you know, the kind of rise of those who are not spiritually affiliated. Uh, the decline in attendance of church, the difficulties that some churches, many churches have had post pandemic of recovery.
And yet also, um, a growing awareness that some of the deep. Mental health challenges, the deep disconnection of particularly younger generations, uh, are providing an opportunity, maybe a fresh opening, uh, for the gospel. And, uh, I think for me, uh, you know, since we last met, you know, what, what has transpired.
Yes. All those challenges, uh, both inside and outside of the church and society more broadly, uh, those are all true. Uh, but the opportunities are true. And I found that in the last several years, um. Underneath the particular programs and initiatives, and we've had a bunch of programs and initiatives to start.
Um, underneath it though are a couple of themes that have become really apparent. One is the need for bridge building. Do we take seriously that the gospel is a message of reconciliation? That calls, uh, people from different backgrounds together. Do we really believe when Jesus prayed in John 17 on the night before, he was betrayed, uh, for the unity of the church, reflecting the unity within the trinity and empowering the ministry, uh, of the gospel being proclaimed.
You know, we show that we are disciples because of this. Do we really believe these things? So, you know, this very important ministry of bridge building. And both within the church, but between the church and society at large. And the second thing is this understanding, uh, of a gospel that is more comprehensive and beautiful and encompassing than we could ever imagine and more often than we are ever discipled into.
You know, um, we're really great about our personal discipleship, our personal implications of salvation in Christ, but what are the public dimensions of our faith and how do we even disciple people into those public dimensions and, uh, responsibilities and calling, and that seems to be another big, uh.
Opportunity and challenge, you know, the bridge building and a gospel as comprehensive, and a discipleship as comprehensive as all the engagements of our public life. I, I, I think these are some of the things I've really occupied, uh, my attention.
[00:05:58] Michael Martin: Yeah. Um, [00:06:00] I'm grateful that you mentioned that because I think about even the mission of ECFA.
It's like, you know, enhancing trust in Christ Center churches and ministries, but not just for the sake of enhancing trust, but so that we can more effectively reach the world for Christ. I mean, it's really about, I think especially on that second point where you're talking about there with the gospel witness.
I think that's huge. I also really resonate, Walter, with what you said about. It's in the times of greatest challenge that we also find the greatest opportunities. And just as you were sharing too, not just thinking about Yeah, what are the opportunities for our organizations, but also what are the opportunities for us as leaders?
It's like when we go through those hard times, that's when we're really squeezed in a lot of ways, like drawn closer into the, you know, the presence of the Lord. I think we're able to, um, experience more of the formation. That he has for us. And so, because this is the Behind the SEAL podcast and we kinda go behind the scenes with, uh, our friends who are with us, if it's okay, I'd like to just kind of put you on the spot there and say what has that looked like for you, um, in your leadership?
What has it been like to kind of experience. Some of the opportunities to grow closer to the Lord in the midst of some of these challenging times.
[00:07:17] Walter Kim: Yeah, I mean, it's so true that we've witnessed in, in all sorts of public ways, but have also experienced this in our personal networks, that, you know, you can have the right strategy, you can articulate the right mission statements, uh, you can even have a thriving program, church, institution, uh, and yet whether it's a moral failure.
Uh, or it's burnout, uh, or it's this profound sense of leadership anxiety, uh, are the question of what does it take for a person entrusted with the call to lead others? To him or herself also be led, be led into the presence of God. Be grounded deeply into the rest that we believe, uh, is offered in Christ, and how do we ensure that as the demands of leadership increase.
Uh, that we are actually also increasing in the sustaining foundation of, uh, intimacy with the Lord of Friendship, with the people of God, of our ability to look at the world as not the enemy, but even as people who also need to be offered friendship. You don't do these things when you're emotionally tapped out.
Uh, you don't do those things when you do not have the spiritual resources to forgive, uh, and to be gracious, um, you, you, you really do need to be connected, uh, deeply in rhythms of life, in connections with friendships, in communities of faith, [00:09:00] in an openness and posture, uh, that is deeply, uh. Tapped into the flourishing that God would have, uh, for us and the flourishing that we seek to lead and proclaim to others.
[00:09:17] Michael Martin: I can so relate to that. Um, that's been my experience. Certainly. It's like, I guess, uh, you know, at first you sort of walk through some of those hard things and you, you may be, uh, at least me, I'll just be honest. It's like you ask like, God, why, why, why the challenges? Why am I walking through this? But, um, then coming to see it really as an invitation, it's really an opportunity.
And staying, like you said, not only very connected to. God is a source of grace that allows us to do all the things that, you know, he has called us to do. It's really through his power. But I also appreciate what you said too about, uh, there is a connection that is so important to a community, to, uh, spiritual friends, those who are around us.
You know, God doesn't call us to do any of the, the work that we do alone. And so I'm curious what that's looked like for you, um, just as you've taken on some of these additional responsibilities with. NAE and uh, as God's continued to kind of entrust you in your leadership, uh, with even more, um, what has that look like for you in terms of leaning even more into, uh, the importance of friendships, uh, connections with those around that can be that kind of support?
[00:10:30] Walter Kim: Yeah, I think, um, there are two interesting. Tensions that I'm gonna put together and hold together because it's been my experience, I think with all the travel of leadership, um, with all the various demands and different communities now that, uh, call for attention, and particularly with a network like the NAE, uh, that, that pulls you in all sorts of directions, right?
I need to be both more intentional and planned and scheduled and more spontaneous. And free and open to the moment than I ever before. So when with respect to friendships, I need to actually schedule into my calendar, uh, weekly, biweekly, monthly opportunities for me to connect with mentors, with friends.
I just need to book it. Sometimes it means booking several dinners. You know, I have this set of friends that we, we have this monthly kind of dinner date, uh, that we go out or cook at each other's home, and we seek to schedule that out months in advance. Um, so that it's in our calendar. Uh, and then, um, I have this friend that I have actually in some way, shape or form.
Uh, for the last over 30 years, even though we have lived in different countries and in different states, uh, and continue to live in different states and haven't lived [00:12:00] in the same location for, you know, over 25 years, um, we find times, uh, used to be every week, it's now moved to every other week. We just schedule it.
So it's in my calendar. Opportunities, uh, weekly, biweekly, and monthly. So I, I am more scheduled than I've ever been before with preserving and spending time with those friendships, but I've also found myself more spontaneous when I think about my, um, relationship with my sister, I whom I love, love, love, love, love dearly, you know, wonderful follower of Jesus.
I, I find that, um. Just in the, the cracks in my schedule as I'm walking from one gate to another at an airport or I'm on my car ride from the airport someplace else, or in an Uber from one thing to another. Finding those cracks of time, um, not to simply write an email. Um, or prep a particular talking point, but hop on the phone to call my sister or a loved one or a friend and just to catch up.
Just have a point of connection just to invite, Hey, I'm about to, you know, head here. Could you pray for me? Um, I found myself simultaneously more. Than ever before in terms of maintaining my friendships or meaningful spiritual relationships, but also more spontaneous, uh, than ever before. Um, and both are needed.
[00:13:33] Michael Martin: Both are needed. Yeah. I appreciate you raising that tension. That's, that's really interesting. I'm also curious, um, what does it look like for you when those friendships are lacking? You know, like what are some of the warning signs or the indicators in you where it's like, hey. It's been a little while since I've touched base with my sister, or like, maybe I've, I've started sending more of those emails, like in the, you know, occupying my time, staying busy, you know, getting caught up in the, in the things like what does it look like for you?
When, or do, do you start to notice like some warning signs whenever, um. Maybe you aren't quite as intentional as you should be with those friendships.
[00:14:12] Walter Kim: Yeah, that's great. Um, I would say there, there are a few things and, and there the, there's the physical, there's the emotional, uh, and then the spiritual, well, I'm put in those terms, uh, and get very.
Real with you. There was a period, um, of time where I was starting to ha actually have some physical symptoms. You know, I like have these tingling in my, uh, hands and I was not sleeping well and I historically have, I don't necessarily sleep long, but I have never had problems falling asleep and staying asleep.
Um, and all of a sudden I went through this stretch of time that I was not. Sleeping well. Uh, I couldn't point to anything. [00:15:00] Uh, it's not like I was having a recurring, bad dream, um, and this tingling stuff, and I realized that I am not processing this information with anyone else. It's in my head. Um, and I began to realize not only do I need to talk to like my doctor and say, Hey, this is going on.
You know, like, what, what, what's happening? Um, but I also needed to ask the question, um, who else in my world, other than my wife actually knows that this is an issue, can help me process this, can be praying for this, and that's. That's when I began to realize I'm not, this is not a prayer point on anyone's list.
Um, not just having, you know, divulged this to your entire listenership. You know, maybe I all of a sudden thank you for this. We all saying thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I realized I don't have someone that's actually processing and praying for this that's so good, other than my spouse. And that's not right.
Because if I really believe in prayer and if I really believe that I need people to be praying about. A flourishing ministry or the next speaking engagement or whatever, I really need to them to be praying for this. The second thing is the emotional thing of if I ever get to this is a good sign. If I ever get to the point of feeling like, Ugh, no one in the world understands me, I'm all alone in this.
Uh, that is a big sign Also. That, um, I'm realizing that I've gotten into a particular emotional space that is actually not only not right and true, um, not healthy, uh, but is actually robbing opportunities for friendships to deepen. Right it. It's robbing the opportunity for the community of God to be the community of God.
So that's kind of the second thing of like, if I ever feel like I'm alone in this or no one understands, well, that's probably a sign that I'm not taking the time to help people understand. Taking the time to remind myself that no, there are plenty of people who love me and are more than happy and eager to
walk with me through this.
[00:17:26] Michael Martin: Isn't the deception there? Yeah. Sorry. Just gonna interject there too, like is, isn't it interesting even how. I feel like in you sharing that, like there is a level of, of deception, right? And it's like, I think the enemy would even want to plant those seeds in our minds of like, oh yeah, we're the only one.
Or, you know, whatever it may be. Because, uh, yeah, if we believe those things, it, it does keep us from, you know, being in those kinds of relationships that we need to be. So, uh, I really appreciate that. Okay. Go on. So I think you're gonna hit the spiritual
[00:17:57] Walter Kim: Yeah. The, the spiritual thing is, um. [00:18:00] The, the, the emotional places it more in the terms of, oh, I feel alone, or, you know, here's this I don't have anyone to talk to, or, um, and it's not just, I don't have some guru to talk to or I don't have a book or a solution to talk to.
I don't have someone with whom there is the empathy, uh, that may not actually have any idea what to recommend. But expresses the kind of empathy that removes the feelings of isolation and aloneness that often comes with leadership, uh, and often complicates any decision that we have to make. The, the third thing, the spiritual for me.
It is, uh, one, you know, warning sign is you. It's for warning signs is, um, if I allow the language of Satan, who is the accuser of the brethren who stands before the throne of God day and night to accuse the brethren, or, you know, in the Old Testament, this is imagery of the high, um, that in Zacharia was, um, being accused by Satan and kept, you know, in dirty clothing.
Um. Uh, this relational isolation makes me more prone to the work of Satan, who is the accuser of the brethren. This doesn't make a difference. Who are you to lead in this way? You talk about holiness, but look at your own life. Um, oh, when's the last time you really prayed through this issue? You know, I mean, there are all sorts of ways that I think Satan and my own sin nature conspires, uh, to amplify, uh, the accusation.
To me, that's a huge warning sign. I mean, maybe for others it's not, but I know for me it's a huge warning sign if, um. I see myself not saying, oh, you know, that didn't go as well as I had hoped. Um, maybe even it was a failed experiment to shifting to, oh, I'm a failure, you know, to, to making it deeply corrosive to my relationship with God, or producing shame or producing doubt.
To me, those are all huge red flags, and sometimes you just need love with skin. You need a friend to come and tell you, that's ridiculous. I just think you're doing a great job. Or, Hey, listen, I don't understand all the dynamics that you're facing, but I wanna tell you, um, God really does love you and I do as well.
Um, and so those, those are some of the spiritual indicators.
[00:20:48] Michael Martin: Those are so good. Wow. As you're sharing those, I was just thinking about even some meals you and I have shared together mm-hmm. And we've had some of those moments, you know? Mm-hmm. Of just being able to speak truth, uh, into others' lives and just [00:21:00] how powerful that is.
Um, I love kind of where you're headed with some of this too. I think a key that you mentioned, like kind of transitioning a little bit into like the how. Yeah. So identifying like, we all need these kinds of relationships, but within the how, I think one of the really critical questions is. It really is the who, you know, you were talking about like love of skin on like the, the relationships with, with people.
I wonder, um, yeah, what are your thoughts related to just how as leaders, and maybe even speak from your own personal experience. You talk about these different groups and, uh, relationships that you're in, but like how do we really discern who are those right kind of people? Um, and what about too for leaders who feel like.
Is there really anyone else out there? You know, what does it look like to find the right who in our lives?
[00:21:50] Walter Kim: Yeah. I would say there are two aspects to the question. Uh, when you ask what is, you know, who is the right who? And one is, um, am I the right who? And then can the person become the right who? So I think.
Friendship, we can fall into the same traps that we do with romantic relationships. Um, we just want to know this is the one and all the sparks happened the moment you laid eyes on each other. You both knew that was, it was just it. Uh, that this is Mrs. Or this is Mr. Wright, and you just know it. Uh, and then you over the course of life discover some things.
Um, you discover, oh, uh, in my case, maybe this was Mrs. Wright, but actually I have a whole lot of Mr. Wright to become still, you know,
[00:22:52] Michael Martin: so turn the mirror. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:54] Walter Kim: And then the second thing is we are not static. So you want marriage, but you also want friendships to grow with you. The friend that you made when you were a single college student, if it's actually going to endure, it needs to morph to when you have dating relationships or marriage or children or when you live in different parts of the country.
So in other words, even when you ask the question, who is it that you should be looking for, um, that who will not remain the same? And that who might be perfect for this particular very sli, you know, small sliver of time. But if that, who can't grow and transform that, who won't be the right person later in life or even maybe two months or two years later, right?
And all of a sudden, if you're so concerned with finding the right who that you forget that friendship is in two ways. Um, you're not becoming the right who for a relationship that is really thriving. So I, I would rather control, uh, [00:24:00] for, um, who I am and what I offer in friendship and how I seek to help the person love me better.
Um, then finding some magical aha. Friendship that requires no work, that mystically just fits. Maybe God blesses you with that, but I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm gonna say that's not gonna last for long. Maybe a month, two months, maybe two years, but at some point, if the friendship doesn't grow with you.
And if you don't change and that person doesn't change, the friendship is going to become stagnant. Um, so really, I, I want to ask that question of are you capable of being truly vulnerable? Are you capable of listening well? Are you capable of asking good questions and offering disclosure that's emotionally rich?
And if you can't, no matter how good the other person is, your friendship is going to be stymied. Uh, because you are not able to become the kind of friend that would enable the other person to become the kind of friend that would deeply minister to you. Um, and then allow friendship to grow.
[00:25:15] Michael Martin: Hmm. This is where we all hit pause and like we could be done right here with a lot of work to do for ourselves, you know?
Mm. I'm grateful that you challenged us to do that, to not just think about others, but who do we need to become? Um, also, I think is just, um, important to ask too, like what about leaders who are afraid. To be real. Yeah. Yeah. You talked about the importance of being vulnerable, but I think that's a very real fear that a lot of leaders face is like, how can I be my real self?
[00:25:51] Walter Kim: Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, we are in a culture that has this reinforcing cycle of, uh, portrayed success. I mean, you become an influencer on social media because you look good. And even when you're trying to become an influencer, because you wanna portray yourself as you know, this bumbling person, making it through life that happens to hit on the right things.
That is such. A manicured.
[00:26:21] Michael Martin: You gotta keep it up.
[00:26:22] Walter Kim: Persona. You gotta keep it up.
[00:26:24] Michael Martin: You gotta keep it up. Right. Good luck.
[00:26:26] Walter Kim: And so much of our life is manicured success. Manicured and manufactured success. So the kind of, um, and, and I would also say there's something about the world in which we live in that we've confused transparency for biblical vulnerability.
[00:26:48] Michael Martin: Yeah. Tell us what you mean by that.
[00:26:50] Walter Kim: Yeah. People will share the most transparent things on social media, um, [00:27:00] but that's not biblical vulnerability. Transparency is the, that might just be a. You know, the, the voyeurism and exposing yourself in order to get clicks. Um, sharing a, a story in, you know, I could be share doing this very thing right now with you on this podcast, sharing stories about the tingling in my hand, or, you know, feelings of, uh, inadequacy or the accusation.
Uh, uh, of Satan. That's transparency. And I have plenty of other things I could be transparent about. You can make a whole industry out of leadership in sharing OGEs of transparency that make for good sermon illustrations or book material, uh, or social media feeds. That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the vulnerability that really says to another person, this is what I shared in public, but I actually need you to help me get out of this.
I actually need you to speak into my life and I need to pay attention that you, you have actually something to very important to contribute. So transparency just gets stuff off our chest and maybe in the worst case scenario is manipulated in order to advance our persona. Um, vulnerability is the sort of independence.
That the Bible describes, that says, when one pers one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers. That we weep with those who weep. We rejoice with those who rejoice. Um, that we are able to say, uh, that I am not able to truly know and be loved by God until I have found it mediated. Through this flesh and blood community of fellow followers of Jesus that enable me to understand the incarnation.
That's a whole nother level. It's what Jesus did when he went to get the Garden of Gethsemane, and he invited, uh, Peter, James, and John to come and pray with him.
And he was heartbroken that they couldn't stay up with him. He actually, this is the son of God and he said, I need you to pray for me. And he was heartbroken that they couldn't stay up. That is vulnerability. That is an interdependence where you actually can be truly hurt. When someone doesn't rise up to the occasion and meet you,
that's very different from the kind of social media transparency that we often see.
[00:29:57] Michael Martin: Yeah. I love just thinking through it that way. And that's [00:30:00] a great test for motives. You know, I think for all of us to do a little bit of that self-reflection of what is this sharing? What's the, what is the heart behind it, you know?
Uh, that's really good. I'm also curious too, in addition to, I think one of the, the big questions is the who that we were talking about, but then also how about, um, leadership? Um. In the context of, you know, your marriage doing a lot. I know there's a lot of people who would be listening who, um, I mean, life and ministry are in very much, I mean, I know I feel this way with my wife Brittany, but it's like as a team.
And so, um, whether the spouse of the leader is directly involved in the ministry or not, it's very much, um. A team effort in the work that we're doing. And so I think sometimes too, uh, that question of like, what does it look like for us as a ministry couple or as a couple, maybe even outside of the ministry, uh, to have those kinds of friends.
Um, that's another difficult question that I know comes up at times.
[00:31:09] Walter Kim: Yeah. Yeah. It's really, um, a challenge too. Again, I find friendships that you resonate with as individuals, much less as a couple if you're a married couple or seeking for a friendship. Uh, so I, again, I come back and say, do not underestimate the power of commitment and humility.
When you combine that with vulnerability, that is a recipe for friendship. Um, you don't get to choose. Many things in life, right? Your family, you're just born into it. And there's a reason why, uh, the Christian body is often de, you know, described as brothers and sisters as the family of God. It's like you, you are born into a family physically that you didn't get to choose and you're reborn into a spiritual family that you don't get to choose.
Um, I do think the consumerism of American Christianity where you, you can hop from church to church and have disposable friendships as well as disposable communities or, uh, you know, that that has some damaging impact on us. Um, because, uh, the selection of, uh, friendship that Jesus put together in his disciples getting a zealot.
And a tax collector and saying, Hey, I want you to go two by two and your life depends on each other. You know, go out there. Right. Um, this is extraordinary that God would call us to cultivate friendships. I think Jonathan and David, here's a friendship that had to overcome family opposition. I mean, the father deeply posted friendship.
It Act actually had to overcome potential rivalry. I mean, David's ascendancy meant that [00:33:00] Jonathan would not get the throne. All sorts of opposition distance, right? I mean, they were, David was on the run for much of their friendship. Um, but they chose to be in a covenant friendship with each other. They chose to say things like, may God judge me.
If I ever blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? And this is like in first Samuel 20. I mean, this is a beautiful picture of God's covenant toward us, uh, to see the covenant that Jonathan and David had, uh, for one another. Uh, the rabbis, uh, used to call the, the. Called this, uh, the ideal friendship that all friendships should be modeled after.
So, you know, when I think about all that work as a couple, what are the challenges? Well, the challenges, you know, is this a transactional friendship? I mean, do they want to be our friends merely because of ministry? Uh, expediency? Will we all get along? You know, will the various permutations of the couple get along?
Um, uh. Can we talk about things other than ministry? You know, all those things that might be question marks that once again, you might just hope would magically fall into place. Lord bless you with something like that. Um, but by and large, even if the Lord blesses you, um, if we don't learn the hard work.
Of, um, listening well, of being vulnerable, of shifting conversations, uh, to deep and important issues beyond the transactional. Um, then we're not gonna have those friendships and we need those friendships, right? We need multiple types of friendships. Of course, we need the mentor, uh, coaches, basically. Of course, we need.
People who are our peers that we could share and swap. Uh, mutual concerns and challenges in leadership. Of course, they're mentees people who we should be building into. Um, but we definitely need to have people in our lives for whom their primary way of understanding us is as fellow followers of Jesus, that we are entering into this covenanted relationship.
That is not expedient. That will take work, and we're going to intentionally cultivate.
[00:35:26] Michael Martin: Well, I just have to say you've been a very good friend to me today because I know I'm, I'm probably throwing some, some tough ones at you, but you're doing just great sharing so much, um, wisdom from scripture, from life experience, I think of one other.
Um, one other challenging question, you, you've already touched on this a little bit, but also what does it look like to, for leaders to diagnose, like when is a relationship. No longer life giving. Like when are the, when does it kind of come to a place where it's time to let [00:36:00] go? Like it's time to move on from, uh, a relationship?
How do we diagnose that?
[00:36:06] Walter Kim: Yeah. Wow. You are not sparing me from these-
[00:36:11] Michael Martin: like I told you, that's, you've been a great friend, you know, so whatever reflections you have.
[00:36:16] Walter Kim: Yeah. I'm gonna use a ministry example. Uh, in, again, in scripture. Um, so I acts, uh, 13 introduces this kind of tension that Paul and Barnabas who have this amazing relationship right?
Deeply, uh, affectionate, uh, and I imagine like a friendship, a ministry partnership. Without comparison in the earliest, uh, church. And then they ran into this deep conflict. Um, John Mark had gone with them on the first missionary journey and in a second missionary journey, uh, you know, they were considering taking him again.
And because, uh, John Mark had left them, uh, first time around, Paul said, no, I can't trust him. And Barnabas said, no, he needs a second chance. And the disagreement was so strong that they parted ways. Right. Wow. I mean, we're talking about Paul and Barnabas and they couldn't see eye to eye. Yeah. And how do we even determine what, who is the right one?
The importance of the mission, Paul? Yeah. We have to affirm that. The importance of second chances, Barnabas. Yeah. We also have to affirm that there are occasions where a parting. Is not even on the basis of something sour. Uh, it's on the basis of something deeply convictional. And I set that up because I would say, um, one, that there are occasions, um, where we need to consider God's call on us into different domains of life and experience, which will open up different domains of friendship.
Right. So there may be just circumstances, I hope if you move to a new city that you won't just still be pining for the old city you left, but you would actually make friends, uh, in, in this new city. It is an easy thing in geographical locations to say, oh, I need a new set of friends. And the old set of friends will still stay in touch, but it will be not in the same way.
Um, I think the same thing can be said in non geographical ways, um, that we have a different call in life and we're moving in different directions. The Lord has called us and we need to follow that. And recognize that, uh, certain sets of relationships will need to shift, and we need to be open to that.
There are times in which of course, relationships become toxic, and this is where I get back to my original question of, are you the right person and are you developing a friendship that grows with you? Um, and, and even then, [00:39:00] I would say, don't do this too quickly. Uh, because, you know, a friend loves at all times.
A brother is born for advers adversity, as the proverbs would tell us. Uh, and, and so we often quit too soon. But there are times where we will need to part ways, not just because we're called in different directions, but we're called to be a different kind of person. Um, and this person really, um. Is actually having a deeply toxic influence, uh, a deeply, I don't wanna just use pop psychology, you know, terms that maybe get misused, but um, is not an iron sharpening.
Iron is becoming a place of accusation, uh, and a person who's, um, no longer growing with you. Uh, I, I think that's a, a deep concern. Um, having said all of that, i, I, I do want to say in second Timothy Paul asks for presumably the same John Mark to visit him when he is in prison. So somewhere along the line, he was reconciled with Mark and, uh, not only reconciled.
When push came to shove and his life was on the line and he wanted someone to bring some help to him and encouragement to him in prison, he asked for Mark to come. And I find amazing, a beautiful picture. So having everything that I've just said about, sometimes life brings you in different directions.
Sometimes discipleship will require you to part ways. Uh, from with a person, uh, to always also be open to the possibility of restoration.
[00:40:57] Michael Martin: Yeah. And time. I think that is so key. Give things time. Well, it's all well founded because those are all, those are all biblical, uh, ideas and principles. A great framework for answering that question.
So I guess, you know, we, we've covered a lot of ground. We are gonna let you off the hook here. No, this is good. You've been in the hot seat. But, uh, just to kind of bring it all to a close and just thinking about. The leader who's listening and you know, have heard this conversation, maybe they've been stirred in their hearts about, um, reigniting.
A desire for friendship. Maybe that's been missing. Maybe this has been an area of, uh, struggle over a period of time. Uh, but those who are kind of yearning for these kinds of spiritual friendships that we've been talking about today, but maybe they find themselves struggling in some way. Um, what would be just kind of one next step?
What would be one thing that you would recommend for [00:42:00] those who have that desire?
[00:42:01] Walter Kim: Mm-hmm. Make a choice and begin the work. Um, I would say do not wait, uh, for perfection. Do not presume, uh, of a perfect fit. Do not, uh, expect that all the, the pieces will match. Um, choose because it is a need in your life. It is a call of God.
I mean, again, Jesus himself, the son of God, modeled the need for friendship. Um, Jesus himself said, I no longer call you servants, but I call you friends. It is deep, deeply a matter of discipleship that, uh, leaders should have these kinds of friendships. Um, and it's an existential need. You, you would just need this.
Um, so, you know, cultivate a relationship in which you appreciate, but do, don't have a need to impress, um, in which you. We'll take the time and actually help the person become a better friend to you, uh, of talking about that. I, I, I think we need to think about our friendships like we would a marriage. Um, and that is we expect marriages to take time, effort, energy.
We expect marriages to have ebbs and flows. Um, but we remain committed to growing in it, and a friendship should be that way. It too is a covenanted relationship in Christ. It too will require prayer, cultivation, vulnerability work. Um, and, uh, we, we really ought to not wait for perfection, uh, before we begin it because the process is what perfects it.
All right. It, it, friendship will be sanctified just like you are being sanctified. It is a process.
[00:44:08] Michael Martin: It's messy.
[00:44:10] Walter Kim: It's messy.
[00:44:11] Michael Martin: In one word, it is messy, but it is the model. Yeah. Um, it's the model of what God has called us to. This is what he's, uh. Chosen, you know, in a lot of ways to, to allow us to become more like him.
Uh, so those are great words, you know, make a choice, begin the work. And I appreciate Walter, how you reminded us today that, uh, a lot of that work begins with us. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for your friendship. Thank you for all the wisdom that you've shared with us today. We really appreciate you all the great work, uh, that you are doing.
And also the NAE is doing.
[00:44:48] Walter Kim: Thank you Michael very, very much for this conversation and for helping me remember the importance of friendship.
[00:44:55] Michael Martin: So good. Well, hey, we need to have lunch again soon. This is a [00:45:00] reminder. Let's make that, get that on the calendar. We'll do it. Yeah. All right. Thanks again.
[00:45:03] Walter Kim: Peace.
[00:45:08] Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.