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Most B2B companies overlook their biggest growth opportunity: investing in the customers they already have. Yet, customer marketing leaders struggle to secure budget, prove ROI, and drive growth.
In a world obsessed with more (more leads, more deals, more revenue), how do you make customer advocacy a non-negotiable growth strategy?
This show is for marketers who want to turn customer advocacy into a strategic growth engine. Each episode features customer marketing pioneers, revenue leaders, and industry experts sharing actionable strategies to engage, retain, and expand your client base. And not just through content, but through meaningful connection.
Because customers become champions when you make them feel valued first.
Taylor Page (00:00):
Make sure that you're speaking a language that people understand, right? When you have asks of your sales team, you got to package it in a very specific way. You have to make it easy and digestible. They've got a lot of competing priorities and a lot of things that they have to do. I think if you can really outline the benefits of working with you, you'll get a lot farther.
Jeff Reekers (00:22):
Welcome to Customer Champions, where we explore how the best marketers turn customers into their biggest growth engine. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Customer Champions. Super thrilled for this week's episode to welcome Taylor Page who's joining us today. Taylor is an absolute powerhouse in the customer marketing world who spent the last several years connecting strategy to outcomes and customers to impact. Taylor's the director of customer and growth marketing at Kong, where she's leading initiatives across lifecycle marketing and advocacy. She's built out everything from acquisition campaigns to every type of advocacy program over the years, and she's done it all while keeping the customer voice front and center. What makes Taylor stand out is, I'm going to take this as well, Taylor, directly from your LinkedIn headline is that she's a generalist extraordinaire. She's someone who can zoom in or go deep on execution but also really zoom out on strategy and I've had the good fortune of chatting with and getting a sense of this firsthand as well, and Taylor and I's conversations in the past and on top of all this, she's known as a great teammate, mentor, and someone who really builds up the people around her as a champion for others as well.
(01:30):
And that's most important for why Taylor, we want you on the podcast today and so thrilled to have you. So Taylor, welcome to the show.
Taylor Page (01:36):
Thank you. God, I'm glad that podcasts are an audio medium because I'm really blushing after that. Gosh, also very odd to hear your LinkedIn headlines come to life. It's not untrue. I really do identify as a generalist above anything else, but yeah, always funny to hear your SEO optimized profile lines be read out loud, but thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.
Jeff Reekers (02:04):
Yeah, well perfect. Well actually, let's just kick it off right on that actually, and looking through your history, in your career history, there's a lot of really unique components that have led up to your role today and you've worked across product marketing, growth, sales, customer marketing, and a flurry of different roles over the years and we really have gone deep in those roles. It's something of course that's clicked for you here in customer marketing. I would just love to get a sense of maybe just take us through that sort of career journey and what's led you into customer marketing more specifically and would also be interested in how does that make you unique in the approach that you now have in customer marketing, having those experiences in the past?
Taylor Page (02:44):
Yeah. Well, I actually started my career in nonprofits, which I have found a lot of customer marketers found their way to customer marketing through really interesting and windy paths, so I don't think mine is that unusual, but I started in nonprofits back in the day and that actually is how I got into tech. My first tech jobs were in nonprofit tech and then tech working specifically with the public sector as well. But yeah, I started as a customer success manager at a very small bootstrapped tech company. I loved being a customer success manager. I did a lot of, I worked with incredible organizations. We mostly focused on fundraising events and I really loved how I was able to build those sort of direct connections with customers through that role. But I am chatty and outgoing and so I was very quickly ID'd as, hey, this person should be in sales.
(03:45):
So moved into the sales realm as an account executive and then moved into a business development leadership role leading a team. It was great. I really got to use my camp counselor skills leading a BDR team and it's totally different. I have a liberal arts background. I was an art history major in college, so absolutely no direct experience, but I'm a big believer in soft skills and a healthy sense of curiosity. I think that if you've got the fundamentals, you know how to think, how to learn how to put sentences together and you know how to connect people and connect to people, you can pick up and you've got a healthy sense of curiosity on top of that, you can pick up just about anything. I really enjoyed working in the business development side of the house. It's very fast paced, it's really cut and dried in a way that I will say customer marketing often isn't. Sometimes miss that.
(04:43):
But yeah, from there I moved into customer marketing and I found it. I think it really appealed to me because it appealed to the sort of generalist in me. I love to do so many different things. I love a deep dive into a spreadsheet. I like to analyze data, but I also love events. Love events. Have been running events for my whole career. I love writing and creating content and I think customer marketing really sparked in me because especially at least in the customer marketing functions that I've built up and led, you do a lot of different things. I've had some great opportunities to flex into product marketing, flex into growth marketing, and I am a big believer in when you get an opportunity, snatch it. I love a challenge, I love to try something new. So I think it's been great over the years to jump at those opportunities and it does lead to a fairly rambling resume, but it has made sense in my life.
Jeff Reekers (05:49):
Yeah, amazing. One thing that resonated but in a very different way with my own career is I tried to start my career in nonprofits. That's what I wanted to get into. None of 'em would have me. I tried to work.
Taylor Page (06:01):
That's so sad. Wow.
Jeff Reekers (06:02):
I remember I was trying to work for the United Nations. I had just moved to New York. I was trying to work for the United Nations Foundation, Bill Clinton Foundation, the Clinton Foundation. None of 'em worked out and I got a job in tech and then the rest is history from there.
Taylor Page (06:14):
That's so funny. Actually, one of the best events I ever ran was a fundraising event for the United Nations School held in the United Nations, and so they had, at the time, Ban Ki-moon was still the UN general secretary. He was there as well as a couple of amazing UN ambassadors, including Stevie Wonder, and he came and spoke and then they had a live band and he went up on stage and joined the live band. I think they played, Isn't She Lovely? And this is just a cover band in New York, and they have just had this experience of a lifetime with a Stevie Wonder performing a Stevie Wonder song with Stevie Wonder. It was very cool. I love that opportunity to have this sort of organic, those organic meetings or moments that just happen when you put a bunch of people together in a room.
Jeff Reekers (07:09):
Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. I'm now very jealous as well, but with that background, such a critical element of customer marketing is there are so many teams and folks internally that we need to align with, whether it's product teams or the sales organization, and even thinking of the sales org so often there can be a disconnect between maybe marketing and sales in terms of driving results. How has this background really helped you from that side of collaboration, cross team alignment as you've gone about building out customer marketing?
Taylor Page (07:40):
Yeah, I mean I think that is one of the most critical parts of customer or really any function being successful is basically how well do you play with others. In my case, within Kong, I've been very fortunate to have some great counterparts who are really supportive and interested in working collaboratively. I think the most important thing is to make sure that you're speaking a language that people understand. So for me, I've been in ae it is a really hard job, and so when you have asks of your sales team or something that you need from them, you got to package it in a very specific way. You have to make it easy and digestible. You have to have a clear CTA. They've got a lot of competing priorities and a lot of things that they have to do I think is you can really outline the benefits of working with you.
(08:31):
You'll get a lot farther. Similarly, I partner with our SDR and BDR leadership because often they're the ones who are using the customer stories or the output of all of our advocacy work as they are calling into messaging into perspective and future customer accounts. So understanding from them how can we help them be successful. I think just across the organization, a combination of making sure that you're speaking to people in a language that they understand and getting that buy-in. So shared goals ideally, but at the very least, making sure everybody understands what's the benefit and how you can help them succeed just as much as they're going to help you succeed.
Jeff Reekers (09:16):
Yeah, that's fascinating. It really sounds like it goes back to that element of empathy development and just really understanding what the rest of the team is going through, what's important to them, and bringing everybody along for the journey and how your efforts are going to impact them as well. One thing, I know we were talking about this prior to hitting the record button a little bit, but one thing fascinating about your role is you have both growth and customer marketing. I know that's evolved over time at Kong, but would be really curious to dive into, and I love that. I think that's such a unique blend and customer marketing is ultimately one of the strongest ways to be able to drive growth. So how do you think about that at Kong and how did those two things come together originally to combine those two roles and two functions together?
Taylor Page (10:01):
When I think back on it, if you are doing customer marketing in a SaaS company within a SaaS environment, you're going to end up doing some amount of growth marketing, and I've found that actually there's a lot of companies out there that do some amount of PLG customer marketing. They sort of have similar things that they're doing. Certainly in terms of the communication and lifecycle marketing part of customer marketing. I think in taking on some of our growth efforts and really working on the side of the sales cycle that customer marketing doesn't usually engage with us much so the pre-sales and acquisition side of things, I think I feel like there was a lot of lessons. There's been a lot of lessons that I've learned that are applicable to customer marketing. I think one of the biggest is the importance of onboarding customer marketers. We know that a good onboarding experience is important, it's crucial in setting a customer up for success, but in PLG or growth or product led sales, anything like that, anything that's more product driven onboarding is crucial.
(11:15):
If you don't have a successful onboarding or you don't have a short time to the "aha" moment, your efforts will fail miserably. They just will. Customer market, we know that onboarding's important. We know that it's important for their time to value, to be short for them to have a good clean experience of getting to actually using your products quickly. I think we know all of that, but I think in growth marketing, there's a little bit of urgency around that maybe we don't always have in customer marketing, we're like, oh, we got a year contract or two years we've got professional services. Potentially. If we're in a larger B2B selling space, we've got a lot of chances to kind of make that up, and I think that we can all benefit from bringing a little bit of that PLG urgency to the table. No, this is make or break.
(12:04):
They have to have a good experience onboarding right now from the jump. So that's one piece. I think another thing that I really love and appreciate about growth marketing that I think is good for customer marketers to remember is the power of iteration. I think it's easy, especially if you've been in a place for a long time, if you're in a, maybe less so if you're in an early stage startup, but if you're in sort of a late stage, mid stage startup or even a large company, public company post IPO, whatever, it's easy to, you got your playbook, you got your things that you're doing, and you're just kind of doing them growth marketing that you never rest. It is about iteration. It is about constant optimization and improvement. I think that's a lesson and that's something that customer marketing as a function I think can really benefit from learning from growth marketing.
Jeff Reekers (12:59):
Yeah, fascinating. It makes me think we have a value at Champion, which is "be better than yesterday", and it goes back into that same mindset of just constant improvement. Love that you got that through growth market. It's a great lesson to be able to just any professional be able to extract and take away from, because it can be easy to get absorbed into those playbooks or if you're at a same company for a few years, you just get used to that same cadence of work versus really challenging yourself how to be better. Let's talk about a little bit about measurement and impact, and I think a lot of customer marketers maybe struggle with how to tie their efforts or their campaigns or their work back to demonstrable impact, particularly more sales led organizations or high growth companies where it really needs to tie back into revenue. What metrics do you focus on and how do you tie your customer marketing efforts back into tangible outcomes?
Taylor Page (13:50):
I think like every company and every customer marketing function, there's always, and based on what I just said, we're always iterating this. I have different metrics of success this year than I did the year before, different than the year before. How I look at success and metrics is really around the holistic impact. My philosophy around customer marketing and advocacy is what I would call what I call, I don't think anybody else does. Maybe they do full-stack customer marketing, which is I in my role and when I build out customer marketing functions, we own communication, advocacy and engagement. And so to me it's how all of those things feed in together. So the communication, the lifecycle marketing aspect of things, how we are driving campaigns, how we are influencing either in a direct or an indirect way, existing customer revenue through retention, upsell, cross sell.
(14:47):
We typically are looking at influence rather than source. If we're getting down to the nitty gritty of marketing attribution, which I think is always a fight, I don't think it is necessary to fight about. I think especially if you're in a sales led organization, nobody got the account, nobody got the deal. I think we are in a place now where most organizations understand this more account based or holistic approach to winning a deal, which is that every little piece contributes to the whole, and that's how I think about the work that we do, right? Customer marketing, we are influencing our customers through our lifecycle marketing programs, our comms, we're influencing them through our advocacy programs or our various engagement programs, whether that's round tables, we're hosting our customer advisory board, our community, all of those pieces are part of the puzzle. And then the most important outcome of customer success, which is advocacy, are your customers willing to become a megaphone for you? So when we look at metrics, it's that right? We're looking at pipeline tied to retention and expansion. We're looking at how many of our customers are involved in our various programs, just understand our total impact across the organization. And then we look at pretty simple how many of our customers are telling their stories with us, how are those stories being used? I think there's a million other metrics we could look at. I'm sure next year if you talk to me, we would be looking at different metrics, but that's what we are focusing on.
Jeff Reekers (16:25):
Yeah, yeah. Amazing. We'd love to make that a little bit, maybe dive into a tangible example there. Maybe it's a recent initiative that you've run or a program that you've run particularly of one was that sort of outperformed expectations or maybe something that surprised you and what was it? What were some of the challenges of it and how did you track that all the way through the life cycle of the program?
Taylor Page (16:50):
Yeah, I think we've got a lot of programs. We've run a lot of campaigns. I think the program though that I'm most proud of really is our customer advisory board program. I started at Kong about a little over three years ago, and I inherited a very technical, very product focused customer advisory board. It was all remote because I started at Kong three years ago and it was a different environment then and it had a very specific look and feel. And since then we've really evolved it and grown it so that it now supports our total global customer base. It is very much focused on, yes, some amount of influencing our product roadmap, but it also is influencing our general direction as a company. We've also moved to in-person meetings, again, we keep iterating. We've tried a lot of different formats. We're trying some new ones this year, which I'm excited about.
(17:51):
But what we've done to measure that impact and success is we look at what are the takeaways, what are the actionable insights that our customers provide us? And then pretty straightforward, what are the metrics of the accounts that attend, right? What's the open pipeline? What opportunities come out of it? And then what's the retention of our customer advocacy base compared to the rest of our customer base? And again, it's been an evolution and we are certainly not done, but we have customers that prior to entering the CAB program, prior to one of their members joining our customer advisory board, they were at risk. They had no open opportunities for upseller expansion, and now the account is saved. It is growing. It's in a healthy place, and I will never take all the credit for that. I would never do that to our wonderful account teams who do so much to support our customers, but we can look at it across all of the customers, all of the accounts that participate in the program, and there's a market difference in the level of engagement and the growth potential of the customers that attend.
Jeff Reekers (19:06):
Yeah, amazing. It's funny, there's tangible impact and results from a revenue standpoint, but I just had a conversation with a prior CEO I worked with a few companies ago, a company called Handshake. It was acquired by Shopify many years ago, and I remember our CEO was a very, very product centric leader, and one of his critiques of sales and marketing was that we actually looked too much at the impact and results. I'll never say that anybody looks too much at revenue and results and impact, but his point was there's so many intangibles for a complex business and it's an oversimplification sometimes to just leave it there. And his example was within the Shopify product, if they're going to change an interface or some interface deepen the product, they're not going to measure it by maybe the ROI results from it. It's got to have some sort of intangibles associated with them. And it makes me think also on a CAB and a customer advisory board, there's so many intangibles that I would imagine come out of a great program there, whether it's the insights, the product roadmap, the relationship development, the executive alignment. So curious also, you really gave some great examples and insight on the revenue impact. How do you tell that story of the sort of intangibles behind a great program like this as well, particularly back to the executive team or other internal stakeholders?
Taylor Page (20:27):
Yeah. Well, I feel very fortunate that I have an executive team who didn't really need a ton of convincing that this was an important and valuable thing to do. And I do think anybody who is starting a customer or executive advisory board, you need an executive sponsor or a few in order for it to be successful. They have to think it's important too. I think, oh gosh, the impact that our CAB has had on our whole company. It's funny, I do actually think there probably are plenty of folks in the company who don't know how much of what our product roadmap looks like today or even some of our messaging, some of how we talk about ourselves, how much of that has come out of our customer advisory board meetings. I remember it was November 2024, so well over a year now. We've had many CAB meetings since then.
(21:21):
We had a meeting where we were sharing with our customers some of our big bets going into our Y25. We did a big bets session where our product team, our SVP of Product and one of our VPs of Product presented, Hey, these are not feature, not product, but directionally, these are our big bets. These are the things that in talking to you all and other customers as well as us just looking at our industry and our competitors, these are the areas where we're thinking about investing. And in our meeting, we actually allowed our customers to, they voted and we had a poll where they shared, Hey, which of these is the most valuable to you? How would you stack rank them? And if you compare our product roadmap now and our product releases now, our product offerings as well as our roadmap now to the results of that poll, whatever over a year ago, it may line up very well.
(22:23):
I think that our positioning has changed and grown and evolved, and I think a lot of that has come out of the insights that we've gained from our customers. Not to mention, I think anybody who works in, especially if you work in B2B, especially if you work with enterprise companies, you know that the most important thing in maintaining customers throughout years of really having the customer stick with you a long time is multithreading. And I think that goes both ways, right? Your company has to be multithreaded into your customer account, but your customers also have to be multithreaded back to your company. I think there can be some concern from account teams over like, oh, I don't want my customer getting too many asks, and certainly us as customer marketers, customer advocacy folks, we know we don't want to bombard people too many asks, but at the same time, I think that there's a lot to be gained for our customers and our customer champions to have relationships, not just with their account team, but with other folks across the company.
(23:28):
I feel very fortunate I've been able to build relationships with some of our customers. I'm traveling to Germany next week for a customer event and I'll be in Munich and one of our CAB members who also will be speaking later this year at an event is based in Munich, so sent him a message and said, Hey, I'm going to be in Munich. I had love to see you, and he and I have a great relationship. We've worked together now for years, and it's great to see that the outcomes of putting in the work, it's not just that the customer has a relationship with their salesperson, their customer success manager, they have them really with folks across the company, and I think that that is extremely fulfilling and also valuable. It not just about the revenue, but also doesn't help. It doesn't hurt the revenue, I should say.
Jeff Reekers (24:20):
Yeah, that's such an incredible insight. I've never heard that before in terms of multithreading and so much multithreading. Think of multithreading in potential account or prospect or opportunity or a customer account versus backwards or the opposite direction. Never actually thought of that before. And so often it can be easy for teams to want to silo those relationships or block others off from developing the relationships, and I've never heard that stated before. I think that's such an incredible insight and such a powerful insight for others to start to grasp as well, and how important it's for the customer to have relationships all throughout your organization.
Taylor Page (24:57):
Just because talking about the CAB, and I have a lot of opinions about it because it's sort of my baby that I've grown over the last few years. I have a very strict, no salespeople allowed policy within our CAB and not even just no salespeople, but no selling allowed. Even our executives, sometimes our internal folks are so excited about upcoming features, which may or may not be its own SKU, right, may or may not end up being a separate product, and I am very sensitive to and coach as we're preparing our agenda and our presentations. This is not for selling even certainly no salespeople in the room, but this is not an opportunity for us to sell. That is not what we are doing here, and it's very important to me that my customers, my advocates and champions who are part of our CAB or attend our round tables or events, I never want them to associate me with the commercials of the relationship.
(25:52):
I don't want them to ever think tailor and sales or revenue or deal in the same breadth. It's really important for me to develop relationships with them that are totally outside of that because I think it's really beneficial and it helps customers to really get to a point where they're viewing their vendor relationship with you as much more of a partnership, and that's I think the goal for all of us. We want them to see us as partners, and I think that having folks within your business who are not, it's not transactional. They're not helping you do something, they're not running your qs, they're not closing your deal and working with your procurement. They are just there to facilitate events, to facilitate conversation, to take you out to a nice dinner and not ask anything of you except for maybe do a video testimonial a couple of times, but I think it's really important for them to have those people in your company that they have those relationships with.
Jeff Reekers (26:49):
Yeah, fantastic. Switching gears a little bit, I know you've been hiring recently at Kong. Curious, what do you look for in a great customer marketer and what separates somebody from maybe good from someone who's great? Maybe as a side question, I'd love to understand how that kind of to now in a customer marketing role as well.
Taylor Page (27:08):
Well, I will say the hiring market is very different now than it was back in 22 something when I was hiring, when I was hiring BDRs. I will say that I think the general, the overarching qualities that I look for are the same, right? I am just as in general, I really value curiosity in people. I value empathy and I value people who like to just get stuff done, and I take it that no matter what role you're hiring for, if you hire for those things, you can't really go too wrong. I don't know, flashback to me from later, maybe I will change my mind, but I've, I've been hiring people for a long time at this point and that has never steered me wrong. I think something that's amazing now hiring for customer marketing. Even just a difference from maybe five years ago when I was building out my first customer marketing team, I am able to hire people with customer marketing experience that used to not really be the case.
(28:19):
Even five years ago. I remember hiring for customer marketers and customer advocacy managers, and sure there were some people who had that experience, but so many fewer people even had that experience back then than even now just five years later. I'm so happy to have expanded my team, what we were able to accomplish. Even my new team member has been with us for a month and we're already accomplishing so many more things, but I think what I really value is the investment in customer marketing and advocacy in general. I think anybody who is a one person shop for a long time as I have been, it's really heartening to see all of the work that you've done pay off and to pay off to the extent that your company believes that customer marketing is a function worth investing in. I think that customer marketers are some of the hardest working people in tech, in business, and certainly in B2B world. So many of us are asked to do just an absolutely ridiculous amount with one or even two, one or two people, and I think that's something where that's a direction that I hope the function grows into being able to really prove our value in a way that makes it irresistible for executives to invest in the function.
Jeff Reekers (29:48):
Along with that, maybe that growth in customer marketing that you've seen and that we've seen over the last five plus years here, anything that you think is overhyped today or discussed too much or a hot take of something you don't agree with that's happening in customer marketing today?
Taylor Page (30:04):
Oh, man. Hot takes. I probably have plenty of hot takes. I don't know how many of them I'm going to share something. I'm think I'm so over hyped. I think that the term customer obsessed has gotten to the point where it's so used and means nothing anymore. It's like when you say dictionary too many times and it stops being a word. I think if everybody's customer obsessed, nobody is, so now I will say I get less annoyed about customer marketers using customer obsessed because I think we usually are, and I'm not at all bothered by companies who really are customer obsessed pounding their chest and saying that this is what we are. I just feel like now it's something that everybody just slaps on, so that's a term where if I never hear it again, I will be okay.
Jeff Reekers (30:52):
I think it was Evan Huck at UserEvidence. I think I read a post by him not too long ago on something about customer obsession, and his point was something around, if you're at the point of obsession, it's probably a bad thing. I don't want somebody to be obsessed with me.
Taylor Page (31:10):
Yeah.
Jeff Reekers (31:12):
I would agree with you there as well. You've gotten a lot of work and connect with a lot of different peers and folks in the space. One thing I love about customer marketing as a whole, as I've gone deeper in here in the last few years, is just how open and collaborative and community driven the profession is as a whole. Curious, who's a customer marketer that you've worked with, watched from afar, talked with, respected a ton that you love to hear on a podcast like this?
Taylor Page (31:39):
Oh man, there are so many. I feel very, I am not a big LinkedIn poster and there are so many customer marketers with incredible personal brands and LinkedIn presences. I always feel a little bit overwhelmed, but also extremely impressed. I think Alexie Glover from Frank Advocacy is so awesome. She's such a good voice, so many really good smart takes on customer marketing as an industry or as a function, and her LinkedIn is very fun, which I appreciate. I will say about Evan and the team at UserEvidence as well. I'm not surprised to hear he had the Hot Take LinkedIn post. I feel like they are not afraid to be bold, and I've worked in B2B marketing now for a long time and something that I want B2B marketing to learn from B2C or D2C marketing that I think we will is fun isn't bad. I feel like we're awash in just corporate jargon-filled LinkedIn posts. Like, here's what having a baby taught me about SEO optimization. You're like, okay. I really admire people who are able to have a strong personal brand while still keeping it kind of fun and not too cringy.
Jeff Reekers (33:04):
Yeah, totally. I only do things in life at this point so I can figure out how I can tie it back to B2B sales. That's how I plan my weekend activities, my trips, all sort of main life events.
Taylor Page (33:16):
Yeah. Here's what taking my dog to the emergency vet taught me about B2B marketing. Yeah. I admire people who put themselves out there. I'll say that.
Jeff Reekers (33:25):
Yeah. Last one here. If you give one piece of advice to yourself or to anyone that's thinking of starting in customer marketing yourself, meaning if you could go back in time and give it to yourself at the beginning of your career or somebody else maybe at the start of a career and thinking of getting in into customer marketing, what type of advice would you give them?
Taylor Page (33:42):
Oh, gosh. I think I would say don't forget, as you're advocating for your customers, don't forget to advocate for yourself. I think customer marketers are as a whole, just I have had the same experience. You have just wonderful people. Truly some of the best people, so empathetic, so generous, so thoughtful, but sometimes not as good at advocating for themselves. I'm certainly not always best advocating myself. I'm often not very good at it. That's what I would tell me from whatever how many years ago and anybody else starting, advocate for your customers and also bring that same energy into advocating for yourself.
Jeff Reekers (34:23):
Yeah. Amazing. I want to thank you again for joining me today on the podcast, and congratulations to you for all the impact that you've had at Kong over these last years. It's an incredible company as a whole to watch from afar and see just the great journey and trajectory that it's been on, and just congratulations to you on the impact that you've had there overall this time as well. So thank you again for joining me on the podcast here today. We'll see you all very soon. If you're ready to turn customer advocacy into your biggest growth engine, make sure to subscribe to Customer Champions wherever you listen to podcasts, and for even more insights, go to championhq.com because the best way to grow isn't just by winning customers. It's by championing them.