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A podcast that explores how AI is transforming careers, businesses, and industries. Hosts Greg Boone and Erica Rooney deliver real-world use cases and actionable AI strategies to help professionals stay ahead of the curve.
Jennie: Work with say, I'm, I'm doing
everything I'm, I should be doing.
I just wanna hit more revenue, or
I want my team to hit more revenue.
And the first thing we do in tactics is do
a calendar audit and look for where, what,
how they're spending their time versus
how they say they're spending their time.
Um, and inevitably I can always
pull at least five hours a week and
say, I can get you five more hours.
How do you wanna spend that?
Is it the copy and paste and PowerPoint?
Do you wanna spend it, you
know, coaching salespeople?
Do you wanna build better
relationships with your customers?
And so we start there so that
people can understand how they're
going to repurpose that time.
And then once you've done that, that's
the magic of AI where you can say, how
am I actually going to add the tools to
make sure that those hours get protected?
Greg: AI isn't the future.
It's now, and whether you're in hr,
sales, operations, or leadership, the
choices you make today will determine
whether you thrive or get left behind.
erica: Welcome to the AI
Voice of Victim Podcast.
We are here live at the AI Powered
Women Conference at MIT, and
today's guest is none other than
Leadership Catalyst and author of
Corporate Rehab at Jenny Blumenthal.
Jenny, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for having me.
So much.
Excited to be here.
Well, I'm excited 'cause we're
talking about evolving your leadership
in the world of ai and what I
love about this is you and I have
known each other for a long time.
So I know the Jenny from five years ago.
Okay.
If you were to pull out that leadership
playbook, which is a good leadership
playbook by the way, I've seen it.
What page would you have to rip
out and rewrite because of ai?
Oh, um,
Jennie: all of them probably.
Um, so for context, I mean, as you know
this, but I've shared this with you, Greg.
So my whole book was born out of
my own experience and 300 other
leaders I interviewed and researched.
And it was all about transitioning from
hustle culture that used to really drive
me when I was a partner in a professional
services firm, running a $200 million
business and managing 300 people.
It was hustle all the time.
Um, and I believe in hustle, but I
also believe it not being, taking
over everything and becoming your
full culture is really figuring
out when to hustle, when to flow.
And so I wrote this book from a
sense of what I wished I had known
then in terms of being able to set
aside hustle culture and be able to.
Stop being in the, doing all the time
and shift into some of that being
where our innovation comes from.
And so at the time, I think I,
I felt really good about that
work, but the whole point of it
was to help an individual leader.
And I think what AI has done has
shown us all of this is gonna just be
on steroids and at scale, and we can
fix one person's perspective of how
they lead and, and lead from a place
that's not fully a hustle culture.
But what are we going
to do when AI is just.
Automating all of the things
that we've already done.
And so that's probably what I
would have to to say is AI has
really challenged me to say, how
do you actually do this at scale?
What's going to change
about the way that we work?
And that's gonna be so different anyway.
Anything that worked for five years
ago has to be set aside because all
of the things that we were hustling
to do or all of the doing, right,
all of the automation and all the
things that are going to be automated.
So really it's now more about how do
you actually help somebody tap into the
most human elements of their leadership?
And let the robots do the rest.
erica: Ooh.
Is that how your, your whole style
is kind of shifting, is really going
in on like that human connection,
the empathy, the soft skills.
Yes,
Jennie: exactly.
So the understanding hustle culture
and understanding how it holds us
back from our potential and how it
teases us into burnout and beckons
us to do more and more is really kind
of the, the first part of the story.
Because if we can understand how
that's actually holding us back from
being who we're meant to be and being
the leaders that we're meant to be.
Then a lot of times people have to start
there and just say, well, wait a minute.
I thought hustle was good,
or always be closing.
Right?
So it's starting to help
them educate that piece.
But once you understand that
everything we're doing today
about 95% of that is going to be
automated, you can't outwork these.
These robots and these
intelligent machines.
So how can you actually start to shift
into the connection, the empathy, the
resilience, the stress, understanding
that you'll need as a leader so that
you can actually set that vision
from the top with your teams and lead
your teams through ridiculous, uh,
adaptability that we're all going to need.
I love that you taught,
you called it stress.
What?
It's stress, resilience mindset.
Resilience habits.
erica: Yeah.
Jennie: Connection or empathy.
Yeah.
And then expansion.
Is that the last part of the framework?
Because.
So much of what we're doing right now, um,
my hope really for, for humans, um, but
humans, certainly in corporate America and
private equity firms that I work with is.
So much of what we do today
won't be what we do tomorrow.
And so that expansion kind of is a
nod to the fact that we should be
able to tap into more aspects of
our leadership, more aspects of our
humanity, and bring that into work.
And maybe that means we're going
to be inventing things that never
existed, or we're going to be relying
on intuition, right alongside data
to be making some of those decisions.
So that's the expansion
part of the framework.
Greg: So when you talk about, sorry.
No, you go.
Lemme cut you off.
I think.
Yeah.
I've been p backed a couple times.
I know.
Alright.
We literally have a sign in, uh, one
of our offices that says Hustle on it.
Yep.
Right.
But I have to rethink what
the, what that sign means.
There's other things that go with that.
Right.
But you know, you talk
about speed to scale.
One of the things that we say a
lot of times is let the machines
handle the routine or let the
humans handle the remarkable.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And this like idea, the idea being
like, as you described right, you're
not gonna be able to outpace the
machine, nor probably should you.
Yeah.
Right.
We talk a lot about like, uh, well
we're presenting and training folks.
Over 50% of the work week is comprised
of searching for things to do your job,
copying and pasting or reformatting data.
Yep.
I didn't sign up for that.
I certainly didn't hire anyone to
spend 50% of their time doing that.
And so now being able to have this and
then lift people up to be more strategic
to use those things you talked about.
Uh, we don't say, uh
uh, I don't call them.
Uh.
What do you call them?
Your skills?
What were the skills?
erica: Soft skills.
Greg: Yeah.
I don't say that word anymore.
erica: Yeah.
Greg: Soft skills.
We call 'em survival skills.
Oh,
erica: survival skills.
Greg: Right.
They either survival or durable skills as,
uh, a friend of mine said more recently.
Right.
And so, 'cause I think that people
have weaponized the whole soft skills.
They have terminology like, no, you need.
This matters more than it ever matters.
Yep.
Right.
And so I just wanted to call that
out, but I I love that framework.
Jennie: Yeah.
Actually a funny thing about that,
Greg, I actually had to tell somebody
too, is the whole label of soft skills
is a misnomer because it came up in
psychological testing of soldiers
back in the fifties where they, on a
battlefield, they had to split people
into two different types of skills.
And so they just picked soft
skills because it was in
relation to firing machine guns.
And so he can't shoot.
Right.
Exactly.
And the names.
Stuck and the psychologist said, no,
no, no, that's not what we meant.
You need these two.
But it was too late.
The dam, the brand
damage was already done.
So I am absolutely that
poor, poor psychologist.
Just like, well, there we go.
I'm just gonna
Greg: have you weaponize this.
Literally, I'm, yeah, literally just gonna
erica: have to let this one die.
Right, exactly.
So, oh my gosh.
Anyway, so when you're thinking about
how efficient AI is and then you think
about how emotional people are, how do we.
Keep empathy at the core of
the style when those algorithms
Jennie: are just everywhere we look.
Yeah.
I like to actually lean into connection
when I talk about empathy because
sometimes the, the folks I'm speaking to,
we have to meet people where they are.
Um, if you look at Brene Brown's
work, for example, she did a study,
uh, that led to one of her best, most
recent books that most adults, it was
like 75% of adults could only name.
Three types of emotions
that they could feel.
It was anger, sadness, and happiness.
They couldn't tell you what it felt like
to be frustrated in your own body and
know where that was, or they couldn't
tell you what the difference between
envy and jealousy was, for example.
And so she said about really explaining
all of these, and if you think about that.
We're, that doesn't change when
you badge into an office, right?
So we're working with people all,
all the time that don't necessarily
know why they're triggered by a boss.
So they don't really know at that
moment that they're acting from
a place of reactivity instead
of choosing how they respond.
So I like to try to say like,
empathy is the skill, but the way
it shows up is actually connection.
Because often people take that
same misnomer of soft skills and
say, why don't, okay, I'll be
empathetic and just, you know,
say hello to the person coming in.
That's not really what it means.
It's really about how can you use empathy
is that doorway to connection with
your team and build that connectivity.
And so that's really where I like to
anchor it, is actually helping them
figure out, are you leading with control
or are you leading with connection in
the way that you set your teams up?
Greg: So, so you're saying all of us
need to watch the movie Inside Out.
Jennie: Yes.
And Inside Out too.
Absolutely.
And Inside Out too.
I prescribed that to my
parents if you can believe it.
Because boomers need it too.
Greg: I a hundred percent gotta tell my
dad like, you're gonna sit down, we're
gonna watch this for the 100th times.
Jennie: Yep, that's right.
Because I
Greg: also like it.
Jennie: Yes, agreed.
Greg: Erica, have you
never seen the movie?
Jennie: I haven't seen the movie.
You have to go fix that.
So they personify all these emotions.
I've heard of that one into
little people in their head.
And so you kind of like see a window
into your head and you see like
fear and disgust and all the icky
emotions that anybody wants to feel.
Yeah.
And then you can kind of see how they,
Greg: and the imagination and all of
these other things is such a relevant,
when you were saying it, I was literally
like, oh, this is like inside out.
Yeah,
Jennie: yeah, absolutely.
I
Greg: have three young kids,
Jennie: I've got two so, and
teenagers who need to have
erica: emotional regulations,
so Oh God bless America.
That's a parenting
podcast for another day.
Yeah.
Greg: I had a three major, like three
times, so I haven't got to the teens yet.
They're four, six, and eight.
erica: Good luck.
But
Greg: that movie is a staple.
Both, exactly.
Both one and two.
erica: Well, actually, let's talk about
AI and leadership and these connection
skills, because a lot of people do have
this fear that it's going to replace us.
It's gonna remove all of those
things that we've just talked about.
But the way I view it is like, wow, this
frees up my time for a heck of a lot more.
That I can actually spend with
the people I love and the things
I wanna do in growing my team.
So in your work and kind of
redefining leadership, how are
you working with leaders to kind
of pull them out of the doing?
Yeah.
You know, because that's hard to let
Jennie: go of.
Yeah, it is.
And we all need it, right?
I mean, you can't, you can't just be
being at work all the time and hit these
huge growth goals that everyone has.
So a lot of it comes down to the
strategy about it and then the tactics.
So the strategy really is helping them
look and say, what do you actually want to
commit to or reimagine that work might be.
Um, meaning do you wanna free up more time
to build relationships with salespeople?
Do you, are you a people leader and you
wanna free up, free up more time to just
have op open door policies for people
to walk in and be able to, you know, be
able to share whatever's on their mind?
Do you want to, um, be a thought leader?
And so you've gotta spend some
time having strategy time on your
calendar or innovation research and
make sure that's built, built in.
And we start there because most
of the executives I work with say.
I'm, I'm doing everything
I'm, I should be doing.
I just wanna hit more revenue, or
I want my team to hit more revenue.
And the first thing we do in tactics is do
a calendar audit and look for where, what,
how they're spending their time versus
how they say they're spending their time.
Um, and inevitably, I can always
pull at least five hours a week and
say, I can get you five more hours.
How do you wanna spend that?
Is it the copy and paste and PowerPoint?
Do you wanna spend it, you
know, coaching salespeople?
Do you wanna build better
relationships with your customers?
And so we start there so that
people can understand how they're
going to repurpose that time.
And then once you've done that, that's
the magic of AI where you can say, how
am I actually going to add the tools to
make sure that those hours get protected?
And maybe it's a, a, you know,
a block on your calendar.
I had one, um, executive I work with
who's going from A CMO to a Cee o of a
major company, and she said, I'm just
gonna spend all weekend, you know,
reviewing these board reports so I
can speak from this executive level.
I was like, yeah, you could do that.
Or you can just drop the board report
in the chat GPT and have it give
you a summary on your morning walk.
And she was mind blown.
So I think there's a lot of ways we can
do that, where we can leverage the power
of these tools to just help us lean into
our human gifts, our human skills that
are just gonna make us better leaders.
But we have to do it intentionally.
Yes.
erica: And what I love
about that too is like.
People think it's making us dumber
because we're not spending the time.
But it's like, no, actually I'm
able to absorb and understand
that information faster.
I could still go read a text
book a thousand percent, but
that's gonna bore me to death.
I'm gonna have to restart the page
because my brain's gonna be ping ponging.
Right?
Versus if I go to any AI tool
and I say, great, take all this.
Distill it down to me like I'm five and
you're giving me the top main takeaways.
It's not making me dumber.
It's, it's talking to me in a way that
I can understand and learn better.
Jennie: That's right.
And, and whether that means that
you're doing it while you're moving
or you're doing it while you're
driving and that it, you're just
getting some of that time back.
I think the one caveat to that, that is
really interesting when we look at the,
the research in neuroscience, the last,
the brain rot the last couple of years.
Brain.
Yes.
Brain rot is the easy way to say it.
Uh, but neuroplasticity refers to
this concept that's relatively new
only in the last 10 years that we are
not hard fixed in our personalities.
We can rewire.
And so the one challenge is, are
we pruning our neural networks
away from the critical thinking?
Um, luckily all of us are not teenagers.
We're over 25.
So as long as you're over 25, you're
not really risking long-term pruning.
Um, that is one thing I'm talking
about a lot with my teenagers is
I want you to be able to know how
to do AI for the future so you can
get a job and, and be up to speed.
But right now you need to make sure
you're building those critical thinking
skills to kind of balance both of it.
So I think it comes back to your
question exactly into what are you
using it for and that intentionality
around, are you trying to free up hours?
Are you trying to have
it be a thought partner?
I use it a lot with.
Hey, be a thought partner.
Here's what I'm thinking about
putting in front of a, a client.
You know, what, what am I missing?
And it'll always find something
that I haven't thought of.
Um, I think I work with a lot of
startups that are saying, uh, instead
of hiring, hiring 20 people, I'm
hiring the right five that I can
afford and who really are committed.
I'm super individual
Greg: contributors.
Exactly
Jennie: right.
So I think it'll change how
we put teams together as well.
Greg: One thing on that whole, 'cause
Eric and I, we get in front of people
and they ask that same question
about the brain rod or how, yeah.
Yeah.
I like the way that you described it.
Jennie: Thank you.
Greg: What was it?
The, the neuro,
Jennie: the neuroplasticity.
Yeah.
Plasticity.
Greg: Right.
And the thing that I always come
back to, I say, look, I took a
lot of AP classes in the high
school, a lot of advanced classes.
I took calculus and, and, uh, physics and
all these others in US history and others.
I said, but I also couldn't afford
a TI 82 graphing calculator.
I said, that did not make me smarter.
What it made me do is choose.
So I had to choose what I was gonna double
down in while I watched a bunch of other
people that had effectively at that time
democratize intelligence in their pocket.
Right, right.
That now we now have, I said, so
the idea, I get it, I said, but at
every advancement in technology,
there's been some group like us that
has sat down and had this, well, is
the calculator gonna make us dumber?
Is the typewriter gonna make
us not know how to write?
Is it, I'm like, you're gonna
have to stop it at some point.
So what I tell people and educators
in, in particular, I was on a
panel a few weeks ago with Wake
Tech down in, uh, North Carolina.
It's like stop saying, are they cheating?
And start focusing on changing the
tests, meet them where they need to.
And to your point, you know, I can
learn so much more in different mediums.
I said, I've learned more in the
last six months than I've learned
in the last five years combined.
Jennie: That's right.
That's right.
Greg: And I said, because I
don't AI search, I AI research.
I'm learning about things so
that I can talk about them
more so that I can do them.
And it's only cheating if you
can't actually do the things
Jennie: That's right.
Greg: That, that you said that you can do.
That's exactly right.
That's the cheating.
Yes.
Jennie: And so, but to your point, why
would we then, if, if that tool is in
our pocket, why wouldn't you use the
graphing calculator equivalent now?
And if you're just saying, I'll do
it the hard way or the old way, then
you're not actually advancing the skills
that you're going to need to compete.
So it makes a ton of sense.
Concept.
Yeah.
Like doing division
Greg: isn't the thing.
Right, right, exactly.
Trying to figure out
how do you apply that?
That's right.
Math to create something new
to solve the cure for cancer.
These other things like, I just feel
like people look at it the wrong way.
Yes.
And then, and even that whole
research, the brain ride, it was like.
Yeah.
Duh.
No shit.
If you don't actually spend time even
thinking about the thing, of course
you didn't, you know, remember it.
Jennie: That's right.
That's right.
So yeah.
Makes total sense.
You still own
Greg: it.
erica: Yeah.
Jennie: You
erica: still own the outcome.
That's right.
That's right.
What is the one thing you think that
leaders are just missing the mark on when
it comes to bringing AI into their tees?
I think
Jennie: one thing is we've, we've
probably seen the MIT study.
Here we are at MIT, about 85%, 95%.
Right.
Not, not showing the results.
I think too often we look at it as a
bandaid or the next new shiny toy and
let's all get on board and if we implement
it, the people that know AI will figure it
out and we'll all get these great results.
I think it comes back to
what you said, Greg, of like
understanding what the intention
is, but also owning that outcome.
And if the outcome is.
Being really specific about if it's
productivity that you're returning
hours or it's innovation that
you're trying to get people to,
to think about that differently.
The way you set up the, the structures
around using the ai, so those, the
people, the operating systems, the
guidelines is really what is the piece
that's going to make or break us.
So it's not the actual tools themselves
because all of them are being.
Overwritten and updated
every, you know, few weeks.
You can't, you can't really be building
something new at this point that isn't
going to be obsolete relatively soon.
So it's not about the tools and the
technology, it's about how are you
equipping your leaders to actually better
leverage AI to be better for their teams.
erica: I've got a thought because I
know, I know really everybody take
a minute, but I, I don't ever really
consider myself an early adopter.
I'm usually like, okay, we'll see how it
all plans out and then I'll jump on it.
And I think a lot of people think about
AI in early adoption and they're like,
I'm gonna wait until the dust settles.
Right.
Until it's a little bit more done.
Now my mindset has flipped on that.
I'm like, no, you need to be,
you know, jumping in now and
learning it while it's evolving.
Right, right.
But what are, what are your
thoughts on that with leaders today?
Jennie: Absolutely.
I am a hundred percent in that boat.
And again, if you don't get too
caught up on what tool you're using
and what the stack looks like, but
more, what are the concepts and how
are you thinking about the business
problem that you're solving with it?
Then you can try to surf as
these next tools come about.
I was just at a conference earlier
this week and they were talking
about how AI is just as big as the
internet in terms of disruption.
And the idea being that people
thought, oh, the Internet's a fat,
I'll wait till it keeps going.
And she gave the example of Blockbuster.
Of the Blockbuster.
Cee o said, well, no one's
going to want to replace.
Greg: Oh, are we talking
about this all the time?
Right,
Jennie: exactly.
The, the Friday night movie selection.
Right.
Um, so it wasn't the
tools and the technology.
They knew what the technology
was, but they failed to kind
of see what the culture needed.
They failed to see what their
customers were asking for and
kind of what, what, you know,
erica: the rest of the team said.
Well, in that exact example, right?
One of the things that I use for
my AI all the time is like, tell
me what I'm not thinking about.
Tell me what I'm not seeing.
And if the Blockbuster Cee
o had said, Hey, ai, tell me
what I'm not thinking about.
They said, Hey, we're gonna
tell you in, in, I don't know,
two years, three years, like.
This is what it's gonna be.
They might have taken a
different course of action.
That's right.
And they had
Greg: no capacity to to to see the future.
Right.
Even imagine we, so one of the podcasts
that we produce is for Jess Xtra, and she
had Mark Randolph, one of the co-founders
of Netflix on there multiple times.
So I always would follow em and I
always tell people, whether it's
the changes that Google has made
or some of these others, they had a
blockbuster meeting, Netflix moment.
What I keep trying to explain to folks.
And you know, one of the coolest
things, I think Netflix did the
early days, a lot of people don't
remember this, but one of their
first taglines was No More Late Fees.
Jennie: Oh, that's funny.
Which was a
Greg: direct affront to block.
Blockbuster.
Blockbuster.
'cause they made so much
money off of late fees.
Yes.
Hoping you couldn't get back to the store.
Yes, yes.
So they had no appreciation.
I remember sitting in an office at IBM
where I started interning in 1998 and
people were debating about Google and
Yahoo and the internet and all these
fake companies, and they were like, oh.
You know, there's no way
this is ever gonna work.
And every time someone says,
no way, it's not gonna work.
It continues to work.
Work.
'cause they have no imagination.
And then going back to the, to
the MIT study rate, 95% of these,
uh, AI failures or whatever.
But if you read through there and
start to pay attention, one of the
big things is, uh, you kind of hit on
this, is a lot of times there's this
build in house or do it yourself.
It's like how are you gonna
build something that is literally
changing every two to three months?
Right, right, right.
So that's thing one.
The other part is the people adoption.
Yes.
We talk about this all the time.
Yep.
People process platforms
in that order always.
And if you can't get
people like invested in it.
'cause we always say, the reason
why they ask me is like, why are
you partnering with an HR person?
You're, I say, well, she's
the human, I'm the machine.
Right?
And I said, but what I'm trying
to get across is this is the first
time in our generation, right.
That it's more than just one person in it.
That can be a potential saboteur.
That's right.
Yeah.
This affects every human on the planet.
And so now you're saying you keep
talking about your outcomes, but you
haven't told the rest of the employees
where they fit into the story art.
So now you have 90% of the org rowing
against you and you seem surprised.
That's right.
So when I looked at the M mi t
study, I was like, yeah, no shit.
Jennie: Makes sense.
It makes total sense.
Yeah.
And I think that the friend or Fae piece
of that too, when you think about, okay,
where is this gonna leave me behind?
Or am I going to, you
know, have to, to catch up?
Yeah.
Even if you look at the, some of the
studies now, there's, in the next five
years that you know, 80 million jobs will
be created and 71 are gonna go away, it's
still forecasting a 7% job net increase,
which is something like 80 million jobs.
The idea is like we are going to be freed
up to tackle higher order things that we
just can't fit into an 80 hour workday.
So like to me, that's very hopeful
and exciting to think about.
If you're starting with the people
first, to your point, which I agree with.
Think about the development needs
that they're gonna have met that
they don't even know they have.
The things you'll be able to create for
them, or the things they'll be able to
do in their job that isn't just, boy, I
am looking 15 years towards retirement
and then pushing the same button like
that to me is very exciting when we
think about that aspect of it too.
erica: I love it.
It's such an opportunity for
leaders, for companies, for
individual contributors to just.
Dive in and see what's possible
because of where we are in this moment.
That's right.
Oh my gosh.
Thank you so much, Jamie,
for being on here again.
We are at the AI Powered
Women Conference here at MIT.
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