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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what
Speaker 3:we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care
Speaker 2:for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you. This episode begins a conversation we have with a friend from college who endured religious and relational trauma alongside us in the same situation as referenced in the Hallelujah and Rumi's episodes from last year. As part of that conversation, those traumas are referenced, religious trauma, relational trauma, and child abuse. No details are disclosed, however, but as always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:How about you?
Speaker 2:I'm okay. In some ways it was harder than I expected and in some ways it was easier than I expected. I'm also proud of us for pacing things a bit. I know there's a lot of things that we could have said that we didn't and it's okay to not just rip the scab off, even though we're being brave to talk about things, you know? And it's hard.
Speaker 2:It really was that hard. And I think that for me, the derailing and and for me, I think part of it was, I think I always thought things would be better when I was grown. Like, that that was sort of my whole childhood of I can do things differently if I can just make it to adulthood. If I can grow up, I can make things different. If I can grow up, I can choose differently than them or do it better or fix it.
Speaker 2:And, you know, until second or fifth grade, I probably still thought I could fix them. And I think fifth grade, which is a whole different story that we're not getting into today, but I think fifth grade broke me of that. That's what broke me in fifth grade was I'm not going to be able to fix my family. And I think up until that point, I literally thought that's why I was on this planet, was to fix my family. And so I think part of what was so devastating for me with what happened in college was absolutely the layer of religious trauma and absolutely the other layers of trauma and the institutional trauma on top of that, the institutional betrayal on top of that.
Speaker 2:But also the layer of that college destroyed my family. And whether they had done good things or bad things or where the truth lies and all of that is irrelevant. Like, they didn't care. They didn't stop to ask questions. It destroyed my family.
Speaker 2:And so not only did I not grow up to save my family, I was the cause of the, like, the last straw, the final destruction, and lost my family. And, you know, in lots of ways, the years away from my family were good for me and healing and gave me the space and room to grow in ways that I couldn't have if I had stayed. But also I didn't get to make that choice. And they took that away from me too. My traumas were complicated because they sent me back to Tulsa to that therapist.
Speaker 2:Like the life decisions I made over the next five to ten years were because of that and the consequences of that. And so I think part of what was so devastating for me was that. And again, it's my fault. Right? It's me doing it to myself, telling myself for sixteen, seventeen years if I can just make it to adulthood, if I can just make it to adulthood, and then getting to 18, 17, 18, and learning, oh, no, adulthood isn't actually, doesn't change anything.
Speaker 2:People are still going to hurt me. People are still going to betray me. The world is still not safe. And it is really, really hard to heal from that. And you throw God into the mix and power and control and shame into the mix.
Speaker 2:And that, well, that was just unpleasant.
Speaker 1:It was. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure it was.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry that you thought this was almost over and then I made you cry one more time. It's okay. Yay, podcast.
Speaker 1:I I seem to have lost one of my contacts.
Speaker 2:Oh, no. That's how much we've tried. Yeah. Do you need it back, or is it what I have learned is called a daily?
Speaker 1:Yes. It's it was on its last little
Speaker 2:Daily? Yeah. I'm so sorry. This was a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 2:How are you going to take care of yourself after this? You're going to maybe cry because we love crying. Going to maybe take a nap because we love naps. Are you okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's funny because my therapist will say to take care of myself after. It's something very similar.
Speaker 2:Well, was robotic. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:It was good. It was good. It's helpful. I'm sure in ways that I don't even realize yet.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of pieces. We went through a lot, but I'm I'm grateful that you were there in it because that is what was different than childhood is that I was not alone in it. And I'm sorry that you got caught in the mess. I'm sorry that your roommate got caught in the mess, but I'm really glad that you were there. I know that we have, what is that when you go through trauma together, but you're actually in it together, like survivors together?
Speaker 2:So I know we have some of that, and we don't always talk about this every time we connect. But to come back to the conversation for the sake of addressing it is maybe the first time that we've done that so directly. And it's kind of a big moment for us. And I'm proud of us in that way, but also I'm proud of us for who we became despite all that or in spite of all that. And how our friendship has shaped itself through our lives beyond just that one experience.
Speaker 2:And so, again, just thank you for still being here.
Speaker 1:Aw. Thank you.
Speaker 2:I turned my camera on. Are you okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I would say all those things right back to you.
Speaker 2:I worry about the level of re traumatizing having No, to talk about
Speaker 1:it's good. It's what I've I've been wanting to do, actually, is to be able to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Maybe we can another time or or after the book is done or something. I I have the chapters that you have sent already, and I can't listen to them yet. I'm trying. I have them in a folder that my therapist can also access so that theoretically in my head I think, here are things we could talk about. You've been listening or editing.
Speaker 2:I skipped through to hear your voice and to do that intro when you're working out the music and stuff. And so that was fun in a practical way, but as soon as we got into story, was like, oh, this is
Speaker 1:not a conversation
Speaker 2:I need in my head.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's that's really intense. I mean, that is reliving it. Well Imagine.
Speaker 2:But what's what's been good is sorting out what is mine, what is not mine, what is mine collectively, and what is real, not real, like Katniss and Hunger Games, with Peter, like, what is real, not real. And and I can, I feel like since the book and especially since knowing you have it and you were there in it, I feel like I can reference things in therapy? Like we're not gonna acknowledge that I actually know about them or that they come up in my head, but I can, you know, in that book over there, we can reference this thing. And so I feel like we're walking circles around it, but the circles are getting closer, so maybe it's okay. But it's hard.
Speaker 2:It's hard stuff. Like today, this was hard stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There are not enough naps. Oh, no. You were very brave. You were very brave. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Who are you? You're like the definition of brave. I don't know how you do it.
Speaker 2:I'm the definition of a mess.
Speaker 1:You're a brave mess.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Do you have any other questions for me before I stop recording this?
Speaker 1:Oh, I wrote down some questions.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. Let me roll up my sleeves. Here we go for round three.
Speaker 1:Do I? Is it okay if I text you? Like, am I texting you too much?
Speaker 2:No. You can I mean, wow? That was a lot of different questions. Yes, it is okay. It is okay.
Speaker 2:First of all, it's very kind of you to ask because we're all about consent now. Right? Yes, it's totally fine for you to text. No, you are not texting too much. I do wish I could text more.
Speaker 2:It is hard for me in my brain to switch between spaces. So if I get a text from you, I want to only text you and so it's hard to also then work or tend to children because it brings up, especially as we are preparing for this conversation, I think now that we've had the conversation, I think it will be easier. But because it brings up so much, it's hard to regulate that to be very responsive. But I am learning about friendships and I'm practicing friendships, so theoretically, I want to respond and be more responsive, and I am getting there. But also I know you want to be super healthy and balanced and so I am enabling your progress of not being codependent by being codependent and protecting you from myself.
Speaker 1:It all makes sense.
Speaker 2:So no, I will do better actually participating and responding
Speaker 1:or attempting to. Understand. And, like, if there's ever any gaps in communication, I want you to know, like, I don't take it personally. I've had practice with another friend of mine who's just very busy. And whenever we finally do get back in touch, it's like, oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:I was just really busy with this or that. And, you know, it's never like, oh, crap. Did I offend her? Or she offended I don't know. I, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I feel like both of us are not the drama kind of girls, so I don't worry about that. I know that as we're both of us because of college, even without anything else, both of us as we're healing relational trauma, as they say, I know that attunement is really important. And so I don't want you to feel unimportant or dismissed or delayed because that is traumatic even if you're like, I understand cognitively, it's fine.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:So I'm aware of that and just wanting to be a better friend. It's just really still hard for my brain. So it is it is a difficult thing, but I it is something I want to do better because people matter. You matter. But I need to be able to talk to you to show you that.
Speaker 2:Was that do you have more questions? Because that was an easy one. Yeah. Let's do another one. You were holding back on me.
Speaker 2:I didn't know there were more questions. This is good. You interviewed me.
Speaker 1:It's it's not a happy question. Oh. So is there something going on with your bio family with them being mean to you? They
Speaker 2:are just not impressed with me at this point. They have the book. They have the podcast. They, my parents, as you know, are deceased. So that peace, there's nothing I can do about that, this side of heaven.
Speaker 2:And, the rest of my family is is generally uninterested anyway, But also there are things I have wrong or done wrong, like college, that are still held against me and also because there's so much trauma, very difficult both for me and for us to untangle and sort through. So we are both respectfully trying to not make it worse. It's hard because especially, like, with DID, for example, like you talked about, how that email about us not being friends came to that child part as well, not just to the adult person getting the email, which is exactly why that was so traumatic. And I feel like the same thing is there because in my head, so to speak, or with certain parts, it's confusing why we are not still little together and why we are not still the best friends that keep each other safest and why why they I think the betrayal there their my betrayal of them is that I said any of this, the true part and the wrong part or the compilation part. The, the betrayal that I feel is about why if we were so close and if we were siblings, why would you believe that I am bad before you would believe that I was being abused at this college and needed help?
Speaker 2:And it really goes all the way back to that. And so, those are really hard pieces that I don't think can, I don't know how to fix them safely for anyone because I don't want to make things worse? And I can say, I got this part wrong and I got this part wrong or I shouldn't have done this or I should have done that. Like I can have those conversations but if that's where the conversation stops with only how bad I am, then that's not a conversation that actually heals me at all. So even though it would be the black and white things that they need, it would not actually help me at all.
Speaker 2:Even though learning how to be present or what's real and not real and what's truth or what's present in now time is part of healing. But leaving me as the bad guy, like, I'm already the bad guy, that doesn't move me forward at all. Yeah. Does that make sense? When you, when you two were able to leave the school and you had your families to go back to, I left the school and was in trouble with my family for what happened at the school.
Speaker 2:So it was, it was, for me, it was more trauma and part of my trauma, but for them, it was me acting out and worth being condemned over. So that goes back to it feels like why I'm it feels like I'm still being sent to the van at church. So I'm really sorry. It's hard. Like, it's impacted a whole generation, right?
Speaker 2:Because it's not just us. Like, I grew up not having access to my nieces and nephews because I am so bad. And my children don't know their cousins because
Speaker 1:it's
Speaker 2:not accessible in a safe way. And so, I mean, that just is and maybe it's all for the best, but I, I also, I, I don't want to fix it or make it worse. And parts of me genuinely care and parts of me genuinely want to say all the things that I need to say on my end to make things better and continues to heal and trying to do that in the ways that I can. But if if if that's the only piece that comes out of it, then that's more of the black and white right and wrong as opposed to tending to wounds, which is what I need. And so I think we're in that stalemate of both of us not getting what we need and there's no parents to give it.
Speaker 2:And so how do we give that to each other without making things worse, but we both care enough to not make things worse? Except I have a podcast which does make things worse. Like I So It's a reason to stay in therapy, right? Like finish up therapy, stop podcasting, and then finally get to that stage where I am a good wife and mother and sister who keeps her mouth shut. No.
Speaker 2:Right? I mean, I I'm I'm teasing, but but also it's just it's very sensitive, it's very hard.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. I didn't know that person saw things that way. That's not right. I mean, you know you didn't do anything wrong with the book.
Speaker 2:I I don't I don't know that.
Speaker 1:You don't know that? You didn't do anything wrong? You're telling your story, and you did it anonymously, and you protected everybody as much as you could. You just it's good to tell your story.
Speaker 2:I wanted to tell lots of people's stories. There's so many out there that need hope and healing and a way to find light again when it's been so dark for so long. And so doing that in a real way with real experiences with real people seemed a way to make that valid. But it was at great risk, and every day, I don't know if it was more than the cost. It was not with malintent.
Speaker 2:I'm aware that and it I'm sorry. I did I didn't mean to cause hurt or harm. That's a pattern sometimes with me that my best effort just makes things worse.
Speaker 1:Okay. I have another friend who, is also very talented. My friends are so talented. You're so talented, by the way. She wrote a memoir, and, she published it using her real name, that she kept, like, she didn't use real names of other people in the memoir.
Speaker 1:And it, it severed the relationship between her and her mother. Her mother's borderline. And so, And I, I just say that because I know you can see things more clearly for other people than for yourself. I mean, I, everybody's like that, I guess, but, you know, she didn't do anything wrong. And, especially your story, I think it just has had tremendous impact already.
Speaker 1:Just so much good has come from it. And it is still coming from it. So I'm really glad you did it.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:My younger sister has a biological brother. Who never believed her about, the abuse. And she doesn't she's cut off contact with him. I mean, he occasionally has reached out to her. And every time, you know, she's She rethinks everything, like, what But, it's just not It's not healthy.
Speaker 1:And There's a word for it, like triangulation, you know? When the abuser kind of gets the other people of the family on their side and makes it a battle, makes it it's just it's just trauma on top of trauma. It's just awful.
Speaker 2:It is. And it's hard because I was on the outside since I was little, and so I never felt like I belonged. And so there's grief there that I was on one side of the family too much like my mother, and on the other side of the family too much like my father to be wanted or approved of or excluded and, and so, like there's lots of ways that many people tried to care or wanted to care, but it was very early in my life that things were just tallied against me. And at some point I couldn't win anymore. I, like, there was no chance of winning.
Speaker 2:And so finding my own way is the only thing that kept me alive, because it's the only thing that still gave me hope. And then the problem with that, especially being so young, my sibling and I both left home so early, that part of the problem with that, and really we hadn't had parents since junior high, and I don't mean that in any way disrespectful of my family, but after my parents' divorce and my mother had custody of us, as a single mother, she had to work a lot. So even if we're not making accusations about anything, I just mean practically. I mean that's what happened in eighth grade basically, since fifth grade, sixth grade, we did not have parents anymore. And, I guess fifth grade because that's when we moved to Iowa and all of that went down.
Speaker 2:So we did not have parents and, and without that kind of parenting, I didn't have any help or guidance or support or way to do any kind of adulting, much less transition into adulting even. And so it just impacted so many layers, and I got into all kinds of messes because I had no help, because I had no one, and my life has been very hard because of that. They see that as natural consequences. I experienced that as abandonment, and so if, if they're my natural consequences, there's nothing I can do about it. If it's abandonment, there's nothing I can do about it.
Speaker 2:And so I've just worked really hard on finding chosen family, and what does that mean to me. And that has been a process because I had such a low bar to start with, and put me through so many difficult relationships and difficult situations, and the fawning trying to be safe, or the hunger to be accepted, and all of those things have been so, so difficult, and adding to trauma so that it was like I was always living through one more fire to put out instead of healing from anything. Like everything just kept getting stacked on top of, even, even trying my best and safe, like the husband now never hurt me, but with all the trauma of fostering and all the trauma with our youngest in the hospital, even in therapy so many times it's like we had to talk about those things instead of the things we were coming to therapy to talk about. And so how does, how does that heal? And in the meantime, like all of his children are grown and now have children.
Speaker 2:And, or I mean they're not all grown, but are growing up and, and more than half of them have children. And our children are growing up with trying to even remember the names of their cousins because they don't, they haven't seen them since they were, the triplets haven't seen their cousins since they were six and they're turning 13. They're 13 turning 14. And so, like how do you heal? I don't know how to heal that.
Speaker 2:I don't know how to make it better. And at the same time, while that will always hurt, I think there will always be grief there aside from the trauma. And for them too, I think at the same time, I have found my way, and I have worked hard to create my life, and I have found love and happiness and all the things that I wish I could have found when I was 18 or 19 or 20, you know? But I, I'm there, I'm getting there. So maybe I'm slow and weird and delayed in sorting it all out, but I am doing the sorting.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:It's amazing. You are the boat. Right?
Speaker 2:I am the boat. I am my own ship. Wow. You ask really hard questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think I'll end with that one.
Speaker 2:Was that too much? Was that too long?
Speaker 1:Oh, no. No. You're okay? Yeah.
Speaker 2:You don't have any more that you need asked?
Speaker 1:Mm-mm.
Speaker 2:Are you sure?
Speaker 1:Okay. This is not a big, like, important I have to know question. It's about how you experience DID. What is sleep like for you? Is there ever, like, a time where you feel more rested than somebody else because maybe somebody woke up and you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Like, do you ever get a good night's sleep?
Speaker 2:That is actually a really good question and the whole world would like to know. Sleep is challenging for lots of reasons. I have a lot of nightmares. Sometimes they are memory type nightmares. Sometimes they are nightmares that I don't know if they're just nightmares or if they were memory nightmares because it's things like the college or things that people told me or tried to make me think.
Speaker 2:Like I had that therapist in Tulsa that talked about things that happened to me that I know were not things that happened to me. And so made that even more complicated and made it worse, which is one of the problems my family has with that, which is valid. I get that. It makes me angry too. It's distressing to me too.
Speaker 2:But it was also really hard to solve all by myself without anyone else telling me different. You know, like it was a hostage kind of situation is what it feels like.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:so that is hard to untangle. That is hard at night. There is a lot of waking up and not knowing if I'm safe where I am. I don't mean that I'm in danger in my house. I mean waking up and physiologically not knowing if I'm safe.
Speaker 2:And so that is really hard to settle back down, like neurologically or something, like in my body, it's really hard to settle my body back down in those kinds of moments. But also, I am exhausted enough, and since chemo, I fall asleep pretty quickly. Staying asleep is harder, and there are a lot of times where I think I have gone to sleep, but I can tell because of like my watch or something that I got back up or someone got back up and did something else and then tried to go back to sleep. Or we get up really early and can't go back to sleep. So I think we get enough sleep and there are sometimes where I sleep well.
Speaker 2:So it's always just a hard piece, I think. I don't take any medicine. There's a lot of people with DID who take medicine for different things, maybe for sleep, or for depression, or anxiety, or different things. I don't take any medications other than estrogen because of my hysterectomy. And so I don't know if that would be something that was helpful or not.
Speaker 2:The only time I've ever had medication from DID was then in school when that therapist put me on Ritalin to stop the switching for school. But that I only had it for, like, those months that she paid for it. And then she was like, I don't like your school. You're not going to school anymore. Right.
Speaker 2:That question was easier. Did I answer it or no? I'm sorry. That's one of the problems with DID that, like, there's there's never an easy answer. It's not never a simple answer.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:No. I was just curious.
Speaker 2:Anymore? Mm-mm. Nope. That was a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I'm still kind of in shock that we're talking at all. I get to see your face. Hello.
Speaker 1:Hello. Yeah. Oh, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:I'm proud of us. That was a big deal.
Speaker 1:Just
Speaker 2:emailed and you're like, okay. I'm ready to do this. Let me notify my therapist.
Speaker 1:Well I don't know if I'm ever really ready but if it's like an hour never kind of thing.
Speaker 2:I was very brave. It was also hard. I don't feel as nauseous as I did before we talked about it, but also there's that heaviness of, we talked about that, and that's a thing. It's real. Because
Speaker 1:she was No.
Speaker 2:Too. Like, I can't just I didn't make this up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it makes me sad that there's more people out there getting hurt or just thinking, oh, this is a safe place to send my kids. Yeah. Like, do summer camps and things now even, right, like to make money. So they have, like, summer church camps and different things on campus and the dorms and everything. And I just think that is not a safe place for children.
Speaker 2:I don't know how to tell you. Help you understand that is not a safe place for your child.
Speaker 1:My therapist does some teaching at, I think it's a community college. Or no, it's a regular college. I don't know. But when I talk about the college, she's like, They can't do that. Right?
Speaker 1:And I'm like, she, she's talking about this diversity and inclusion thing, but it doesn't apply to them. It doesn't apply to them because they're exempt from it or whatever. I looked I looked up some of their policies and this, like, agreement you have to sign to go there. And, you know, after every statement, there's, like, all these bible verse references, and it's just it's just.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's hard. I was I was looking at different jobs this week because war is not supposed to be my baseline right? So I was just exploring things and looking at different things and one of the things that was a possibility I had actually been asked before to do was teaching at a college and because of where we went to college, that's actually a really hard job for me to get because of accreditation and, and different things, right? And so for me to get asked to do that after I've tried for so many years to do that, because I think I would enjoy it, I think I would like that.
Speaker 2:And so it was a big deal to get offered. Anyway, I was looking at this place and it it was not that school, but it was a different school and the same kind of thing with an honor code and with policies and bible verses and scriptures all over, and I was like, I cannot do it. I cannot physically, neurologically do that. I can do the job, The job is unrelated to any of that. What I would be teaching would just be stuff I talk about on the podcast all the time.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, I could do that, but I could not be myself there. I could not be safe there. I could not love there. I could not live there.
Speaker 2:I could not function there. Not even even if you took a took aside the whole flashback trigger kind of experience that that kind of environment can be. I was I can't do it. And I told them, no. I can't do it.
Speaker 2:And I'm not that's the whole point. Right? It's I'm learning slowly. I'm sorry. But I'm learning not to put myself back at war.
Speaker 2:Don't wanna be at war anymore. I can't work there. And what I learned from that college that we went to is that war is not always about guns and missiles and snipers. Sometimes it's words and intentions and the mental and the physical and the betrayal institution, and I cannot do it anymore. And, and I'm, I'm tired of sitting in the van.
Speaker 2:I don't, I don't know what's gonna happen when I get out of the van, but I'm tired of sitting in the van. So what does that look like? And I think part of what made that possible for me to recognize was the pandemic. Someone talked about that on the podcast. It it hasn't aired yet, but about how because of the pandemic, churches went online, and so suddenly you had access to music and to worship and to talks and sermons and thoughts and community, even fellowship in some ways without having to go in the building or without getting sucked into all of the stuff.
Speaker 2:And I think that happened for me as well, that because I spent two years not being able to go in the building, that now on this side of things, I'm no longer okay with just waiting in the van. I don't wanna sit in the van anymore. That's not being safe is not the same as living. I'm I'm glad to be safe. I'm glad I have a van to go sit in.
Speaker 2:I'm glad I have a husband that doesn't hurt me. That's fantastic. Points for my life. But that there is more to life than just that peace. That being safe is a great step.
Speaker 2:The most important first step. But being safe is not the only step.
Speaker 1:I wish I could go to church with you.
Speaker 2:We had church just now. This was church.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. I have the same the same type of thing. I haven't been going to church since the pandemic started, But I'm gonna see my immunologist in a couple days, and they're probably gonna say, like, You're responding. So I'm probably gonna go back to church. And I'm like, oh, yay.
Speaker 2:It's a lot to sort out. I want to know the differ I want to be intentional. I want to know the difference between what I'm choosing because I'm choosing it and it meets a need that I have and it's expressed in a way that is meaningful to me. And the difference between that and other people telling me who I'm supposed to be or me protecting myself from that by sitting in the van. What is that gonna look like?
Speaker 2:I don't know. Sidewalk chalk. Step two. Oh my goodness. I kept you for a really long time.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:No. It's good. I had some eggs before I came on here. I had some protein. Good job.
Speaker 2:Good job. We needed protein for this conversation. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh. Okay. Well, get some rest and protein. Cyboc check.
Speaker 2:Cyboc check. Thank you, really, really. I don't want to cry anymore, so that's all I'm going to say. Just thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing.