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Hosts Spencer Horn and Christian Napier discuss a better way to build and strengthen teams in any organization.
Welcome to Teamwork, a better way. The podcast filled with stories, experiences, and insights from leading high performing team experts. Here are your hosts, Spencer Horn and Christian Napier.
Christian Napier:Well, hello, everyone. And for folks here in the states, happy Valentine's Day, Spencer. I can see that, you've got some changes in your lighting behind you there, reflecting the color of love. How are you doing?
Spencer Horn:I am doing terrific. In love, of course, with, my sweetheart of 37 years and, you know, got a little bit of red on to red socks too. I I don't wanna necessarily bend over and show those, but, yeah, red lights, hopefully, that's just indicative of Valentine's. How are you
Christian Napier:this beautiful day? I'm doing well, and please don't misunderstand, folks. I am wearing black here today, but that doesn't reflect my disdain for my lovely wife of 33 years. I care for her deeply. I just don't have it reflected in my wardrobe or in my lighting.
Christian Napier:But I know also that you have deep love and appreciation for our guest today who is an amazing, amazing person. So, Spencer, why don't you bring him on and introduce us? Absolutely.
Spencer Horn:So I am so excited to to bring doctor Paul Jenkins on, and and he's, somebody that that you and I know well. We've we've had him on the show before, although we had, I think some technical difficulties last time. So we're so excited to have him come back on Valentine's Day for, you know, special special message. I wanna tell our our listeners, we have guests, doctor Paul, all around the world, and, they may not know you as well as, as we do, but, Doctor. Paul is a clinical psychologist.
Spencer Horn:He specializes in science and the practice of positivity. Yes, it is a science. It's not just a, you know, feel good thumbs up type of thing. There's, there's science behind it, but as a coach and a keynote speaker and a trader and author, he, he talks about this and he's also a host of a popular podcast on and a YouTube channel that has 100 of thousands of followers. He empowers individuals and families and influencers to go far beyond traditional therapy or positive thinking programs.
Spencer Horn:And he does that to help them create the, the life they love through powerful positivity processes, which I know you'll share with us. For over 2 decades, his clients and colleagues and family and friends have accused him of being pathologically positive. And so he decided to do, he just gave up and, and embrace that, that appellation, that moniker. And so now he is, really pathologically positive no matter what. But from a psychological perspective, the word pathological means disordered, disconnected from reality.
Spencer Horn:Crazy. It may sound a little crazy to consider the possibility that he can take that positive position no matter what. And that's something that, you know what, Christian, the world really needs today. Right? And so I think you and and me and our listeners are gonna really quickly see how this model, that he talks about and the positivity model will, will make that, that possible.
Spencer Horn:So, you know, as it relates to teams, Christian, think about what happens when everyone in the organization becomes pathologically positive. I mean, you might wear a different color. Wow. Well, people experience a higher level of joy and satisfactions, relationships improve, you know, problems are solved, innovation happens, and and and stuff, which is a scientific word, gets done, and life gets life gets better. Doctor Paul, welcome to Teamwork A Better Way.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Oh, so glad to be back. And and so far, the tech's working great this time.
Spencer Horn:That's right. Well, I I in in all fairness, I was on the road and, you know, I think I was at some county library in Paragucia or something like that.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Yeah. But, no, we were reading that introduction and giving me a little context here of why I'm here. I am the positivity psychologist. Yeah. And when you mentioned that there's a science and a practice behind positivity, I think it's really important to get past the trite, fluffy, just think positive that you hear from motivational speakers or gurus
Spencer Horn:because people are turned off by that. I mean, there were some eyeball roles when I was talking about that probably. Right?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Well, yes. Because people use that without actually understanding what it is or what's going on psychologically, there's a process that when you understand it, it becomes a very powerful tool that you can use in in all of your key relationships, including your team. So that's why I think it's so relevant to what you guys are talking about with teamwork and supporting high functioning productive teams. We have to know how to operate the equipment of our own mind.
Spencer Horn:Software and hardware. Right?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:What was that, Spencer?
Spencer Horn:We have to know the, the software and hardware. We've got to have that manual. Well, Hey, would you start off, just let our listeners know how did how did you get here? Tell us a little bit about your, your story in terms of what, what brought you to this place in life and, and the focus of, of your expertise, how you develop that. Just tell us a little bit about where that came from.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Well, thank you for that question because what where my mind immediately goes with that is to a time and place in my career where lightning struck. K? In fact, that's chapter 1 in my book. Spencer, you were mentioning pathological positivity. That's the title of my book.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And chapter 1 is titled lightning strikes. This is at a time in my life when I should have been set. At least that was the story in my mind. I had a thriving psychotherapy practice. I'd been in practice for 12, 13 years at that point, and I was busy.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:I was so busy you couldn't even get an appointment with me in 5 months. I had this waiting list, and I had negative cash flow for 2 quarters in a row. And I can't work anymore, I'm already working dawn to dusk, and something is not working right here. K? Now there's a lot of other parts of the story, but the short version is I ended up in a bankruptcy.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And for me, that was what the lightning strike was. But you can look at your own life and think through, okay, well what is it for me? Because I've noticed, I've been on the planet long enough to know that stuff happens. And it happens on a regular basis to really good people, and you don't always get to pick what it is. So for me, it was a bankruptcy, but what is it for you?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Is is it the same or is it a a divorce or is it a diagnosis? Is it some kind of a health condition? Is it a relationship issue? What is it? This stuff happens.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Well, this is when it happened to me. Now I'm a professional psychologist, and I teach people all the time how to be happy, right, or to to thrive or succeed in their key relationships. This is the first time really as a as an adult where I came face to face, head to head with, do I really believe this? Do I really believe all of this psychobabble that I'm, you know, spewing out with my clients? Are the principles actually true, and do they apply to me?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:That was the personal touch that I got. And as I reflect back on it, you know, one of the things that it's almost it's almost embarrassing to admit. But as as I was going through that experience, I thought, I believed at some level that I'm a special case, You know, I I should be able to just pull myself up by the bootstraps, or I I this shouldn't affect me. This shouldn't even really be happening to me because, well, I'm a good person. Right?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And I used to think the people that went through a bankruptcy were somehow flakes or dishonest or off somehow. Right? I've gained a lot of empathy for those folks having been through what I went through. But the part that I noticed, and this was so amazing to me, really, when I walked out of that bankruptcy court, which I had never planned on. I did not sign up for this.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:It's not like, oh, yeah. Pick me. But that's where I was, and when I walked out of that court, the first thing I noticed, everything's still in color. And somehow that surprised me. I'm like, wait.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:What? I don't know what I was expecting, you know, twenties movie where everything's black and white. But, no, everything's still in color. The breeze is blowing. There's children playing in the playground over there, and there's birds singing in the trees.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And the world kept moving forward, but because I was stuck in this, somehow I'm a special case. This shouldn't happen to me. Right? And that opened my eyes a little bit to, hey, I'm I'm not a special case, everything applies to me. This is a legitimate life experience.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Basically, what I learned through that experience is that circumstances are actually neutral. In the model that I've developed, the way that I say it is that it is what it is. K. Now that can be annoying too depending on who's saying and why. But when I say circumstances are neutral, I do not mean that they are easy or or pleasant.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:They might be very difficult and painful, But when I say that they're neutral, what I mean is, it could always be better. It could always be worse. Is that true? Just think about that for a minute. Is it true that things could always be better and could always be worse?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Now, as a professional psychologist, my job is to illuminate the obvious, which is so cool because I get paid to tell people things they already know. Right? But there's obvious things that are completely unnoticed, like like the feeling of your clothing on your body. Can you feel it? Now now that I've mentioned it.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Right?
Spencer Horn:It's a It was it was a little bit tight before, so I could kinda feel it. You know, I've been working out, so it's still a little restricted.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:You're very stylishly dressed and as you always are. It's it's when it's called your attention, now you notice it. What I've developed through my positivity model is a way of showing people something that is obvious but unnoticed, that your mind is constantly engaged in 2 separate processes. You can't turn them off. You're you're going to do it.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Your mind is doing this all the time. And when you become aware of it, then you're back into a position of choice where you can actually steer it, choose what direction you wanna go with your thoughts. And either we steer our thoughts or our thoughts are gonna drive us. So I've I've kind of already launched into, you know, some of what that that model is all about. But I I
Spencer Horn:I thought That's a that that's a great introduction. And, you know, doctor Paul, I've been there too. I've I've been through bankruptcy and what's interesting. I remember, losing my home And it it it it you know, it's exactly what you said. I remember how just what are we gonna do and how, you know, how's life gonna go on?
Spencer Horn:And you know what happened? We found a rental and life went on and it's like, everything, everything was, was normal. Obviously it was tremendously traumatic going through it. And one of the things, so the question I have about that experience is, I know how hard it is to get out of that mindset that, you know, you say you're a special case, but a lot of people file bankruptcy, and then they have a it's almost like they're stuck because the mindset is I'm a failure. I can't succeed.
Spencer Horn:I I won't succeed. I'm I'm in I I had, I had somebody reach out to me that had heard me speak, literally call it crying for help. I mean, crying because just got his dream job and lost it and going through, you know, a foreclosure right now. And it's like I don't wanna live anymore. And so how how do you overcome how did you get to that place where you're like I can see the sky, the sun, and the clouds, and the birds?
Spencer Horn:Not everybody seems to be able to make that switch. How did you do that?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:What we focus on, we feel. And what we think about, we bring about. So when I said my job is to illuminate the obvious, I'm not here to tell you how to think. I don't have that kind of authority. But I do want you to see that you are thinking.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:So if we go back to these two processes, and this is to help answer your question, Spencer. How do you get out of it? The first step is what I call metacognition. Some people call it mindfulness or awareness. But metacognition is a psych fancy psychobabble word.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:K? We make up words in psychology. It makes us feel smart. And and this one, if you break it down, cognition means thinking. If we put that at this level, metacognition is a higher level.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:It's thinking about thinking. And I invite you right now to notice that you can do this. Either you drive your thoughts or your thoughts will drive you. Well, if you're not aware of your thoughts, they're gonna drive you. So take the bankruptcy, for example.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Since we're using that as an example, at the time, this was shortly after, I think, that we went through this bankruptcy. Vicky and I were invited to serve as leaders for a youth experience where these young people were reenacting some of the early immigrant pioneers, what they did. It was a handcart trek. And we were volunteering as leaders for this group of youth so that they could connect more with their their pioneer ancestors who came across to the western United States. And as we were doing this, we were encouraged to research our own family history and see if there was anybody who was in that situation.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And sure enough, I had a family in my genealogy who came across in what's known as the Willie Hancock Company. Now you guys can go Google that if you want to. This was an ill fated group of early pioneer immigrants where they ran into some troubles and, like, half of the company died before they finally got to Salt Lake City. And as I was thinking about this family, the the this was a family who boarded a ship in England back in 1856. They got on a ship with their 6 kids, and 2 days later, they had 7 kids.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:So she gave birth on the ship. K? So now they got these little kids. Their oldest was like 18, their youngest was a newborn. They got these 7 kids, and they get over to the United States with this immigrant group where they discovered that they were a little too late in the season to make the trek across the the the country to, the Utah territory where this group was congregating.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And and one guy raised hand, captain Willie, he said, I'll take one more group. We'll see if we can make it. Well, they didn't make it. I mean, they ran into winter storms in the high plains of Wyoming. I share this story with you because it illustrates something.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:As I was going through the bankruptcy, I'm thinking, oh, this is terrible. This is awful. This is the worst thing that could ever happen to our family. And then I do research about the Moulton family and my family history, who took their 7 kids across the plains of Wyoming in snowstorms. They're wondering, do I have to bury someone this morning, meaning kick some snow over them because the ground's too hard, before we leave?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And and I realized, I know where my kids are sleeping tonight. I know they're gonna get up in the morning, and we're gonna have breakfast. We've got a roof over our head. Spencer, you were sharing, you know, you lost your house. Well, that doesn't mean you didn't have a shelter.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:In fact, you found some. And what this did for me is that it illuminated the first process that I mentioned. So there's 2, k, that I that I want to mention specifically. The first one is evaluation or judgment. And you can't turn this off.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Just notice that you're doing you're constantly judging. You have to because your brain's job is to keep you safe. That's the number one job. Number 2 is to prove you right. Both of these get us into trouble all the time.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:But to keep you safe, your brain has to constantly evaluate or judge your surroundings, your circumstances, to call things to your attention to keep you safe. And judgment implies comparison with some standard. So notice as I take bankruptcy, which is what it is in fact, I've got a visual for this. This is my positivity model, and we're talking about the evaluation mode right now. We take what it is and we compare it to some standard.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:So when I was taking bankruptcy and comparing it to not having bankruptcy, how do I feel about being in a bankruptcy? It's awful. It's terrible. Anytime we compare our circumstances to something that we think is better, we feel worse. Just note I know that's high level science right there.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Right? Well, what happened when I realized that this family in my family history was dragging their 7 little kids across the plains with a handcart, and people were dying every day. Well, compared to that, I'll keep this. Thank you. This looks like a cakewalk now.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:My circumstances didn't change. When we go to the model, it is what it is. If we compare it to something better, we feel worse. If we compare it to something worse, we feel better.
Spencer Horn:That that that is that's a truism, and it reminds me of the Johnny Carson scale. Have either of you either heard of the Johnny Carson scale? No. There's a there's a continuum of things that happen to us. Like, maybe at a at a one, it's like there's a wrinkle in your sheet.
Spencer Horn:A 2 is a paper cut. A 3 might be lemon juice in that paper cut, but 100 is you're dead. So how bad is the situation really that we're awfulizing and catastrophizing about on that Johnny Carson scale?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Well, in my invitation to people is just to notice that you are making that judgment. Yeah. And and and we go on we go on believing everything that we think. So if I think this is bad, I'm gonna believe that it's gonna affect how I feel. And what I'm trying to do is just open up a possibility for people that they could possibly judge or evaluate it differently, which creates a new energy, and energy precedes outcome.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Because what we're gonna do next is called creation mode. Spencer, you mentioned this earlier that you know people who have been through similar things, and they just totally shut down. They give up. They're done. And other people, like Spencer Horn, move on and create something from this, or even because of it.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:I I I feel like a lot of my current success in business is from and because of what I learned in that bankruptcy.
Spencer Horn:I know it is for me too. I know, Christian, come on, brother. I know you got some questions. They're Germany. I'm just
Christian Napier:joyfully listening to this conversation, and I remember you, doctor Paul, introducing me to this, to this framework, last year, in Nashville, and it it just blew my mind. You know, I wanna come back to the focus on teams. And, specifically, there was a video that you'd put out on YouTube YouTube talking about feeling overwhelmed and frustrated. And, I really, really like that, and it has a lot to do with the stories that both of you have just shared through these personal challenges that you faced. But I think you as a business owner and Spencer as a business executive, you know, have had you you just told us about these experiences of of feeling frustrated because you've got more business than everybody before, but you're cash flow negative, feeling overwhelmed because you can't pay your bills.
Christian Napier:You know, these are normal feelings that people feel in in a in a business environment, and you gave some really effective strategies to to deal with those, feelings of frustration or feeling overwhelmed. So, perhaps you could kind of walk us through what you were talking about there in the video that you shared off air, with Spencer and with me.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Well, let's take frustration, for example. Frustration is based in a belief, and it is a belief. Okay? It's not your circumstances. See circumstances are neutral.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:But your thoughts about those circumstances are not neutral. So when you believe that things, meaning your circumstances, are not how they should be. Think about that for a minute. When you believe that things are not the way they should be, that something is lacking, that that I'm way behind. What kind of feelings do you have?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:I've been podcasting since 2007. Okay? That's before podcasting was even a thing. And I've interviewed 100 of people that we would call successful. K?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And for everyone, every one of those inspiring stories has a heart part. Right in the middle. And yet, we get into a belief that this is not how it should be. Really? Do you see the whole picture?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Do you have some divine connection to the grand calendar and schedule of all things that you know for sure that this is not how it should be. And I've learned from all my experience clinically and doing this podcast as long as I have, and even the clients that I'm working with currently, that whatever your story is is perfect for you. It's through that that you learn and gain the skills and the knowledge and the resources that you currently have. You know, I hear people say this all the time. Well, if I'd have known then what I know now, well, you didn't.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:How do you think you learned it? So what if we were to judge or evaluate more maximum model? What if we were to evaluate what it is as being right on schedule. Exactly as it should be. What does that change about the energy?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And like I said earlier, energy precedes outcome because we're not done yet. We've done another process.
Spencer Horn:So it's really part of the it it it's part of the plan to get you to to know what you didn't know.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:It's how you learned it.
Spencer Horn:Exactly. And and, you know, what's interesting, doctor Paul, I mean, I talk with so many executives and leaders that are frustrated with their teams because there's a lack of resilience. There are people on the team that want to be where the boss is right now, but didn't go through everything that the boss went through to get where they are now. They actually think they deserve. So that's that's the comparison.
Spencer Horn:Right? I deserve to be where the boss is now. And therefore I'm unhappy because I'm not where I think I should be. I, you know, I, I want to be sitting in an office and not doing what I'm doing right now. And that creates frustration on their part and on the, the owner's part, because they're like, you're not ready to fill my shoes.
Spencer Horn:And just there's so many fragile egos out there. I feel that people have not embraced the need to to learn resilience, to embrace the the challenges in the army. I think they call it embrace the suck. Right? Because I think that's where we we gain that experience That helps us to be great.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Right. That's how you earn it. It's that classic dilemma that you you need experience to get the job, but you need the job to get experience. Life is designed to give us experience. And so as you go through the hard part, if you can reframe that in your mind to, oh, this is perfect for me, And it's hard to do in the moment.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Spencer, I didn't do this during the bankruptcy. I learned it through the bankruptcy. Right? And and discovered more of what works and less of what doesn't. It's a pretty good business strategy.
Christian Napier:So, doctor Paul, kind of going on what you've said here, you know, a person could take away well, if things are exactly as they should be and I'm right on schedule, then I should be content and everything's fine, but we're always pushing to change and improve and become better. So how do you reconcile this belief that, okay, I'm right on schedule. I'm exactly where I should be with I need to do better. I need to grow. You know?
Christian Napier:Because a person could potentially misinterpret the, oh, well, I'm content with where I am, and I don't need to change. I don't need to do anything. Everything's the way it's supposed to be. But, actually, there is a better way. That's why our podcast is called Teamwork a Better Way.
Christian Napier:You know, we're always trying to learn and grow and improve. So how do you how do you reconcile these 2 ideas that on the surface apparently are competing with each other?
Spencer Horn:That's the metacognition, doctor Paul, by by by Chris.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Bring in the metacognition there And and think about your thinking, because when I said we're not done yet, okay, evaluation is only the first part of this model. Notice as we go to the top of this model, we're talking about creation. And this is creation of what is to be. That doesn't exist yet because we haven't created it yet. So when we move to creation mode, we have a choice because you have to create something.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:But what if I were to give everybody, you, Christian, Spencer, you who are listening right now, an assignment. And the assignment is to take a half hour. That's all you get. Half hour, we're gonna time you to somehow go out there using your creative energy, any resources you can pull into your grasp, And somehow in a half hour, make your life worse. Okay.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Ridiculous. Right? Would you do that?
Spencer Horn:Could be, could take some effort, but it probably could be done.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:No. You're both chuckling because you would never do that on purpose. We do it accidentally all the time. You would never do it on purpose. Why?
Spencer Horn:Well, that would be self immolation.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Yeah. You do have to tell me what that word means.
Spencer Horn:You know, that that'd be like jumping onto a stake. Right? I mean
Dr. Paul Jenkins:That would do it.
Spencer Horn:You know, impaling myself. I mean, that that's
Dr. Paul Jenkins:I mean, you would never do this on purpose because you don't want worse. If I give you 2 choices, look, you can have something better or or, wait for it, worse. Which one do you want? Duh. Right?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Illuminating the obvious. Everybody wants better, not worse, even though what you have is awesome.
Spencer Horn:This is kinda what, like, I learned at, you know, my master's degree of economics. Right? It's all about utility. Let's maximize the utility and and minimize minimize the the pain.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Look, we are creators. I believe this from a very spiritual foundational place inside of me. We are creators, which means we have to create something. And getting back to your the dilemma that you proposed there, Christian, because if we get to a place where we are at peace, going back to the model. K?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:This green arrow right here, peace. When we are good with what it is, no matter what it is. And as we generate that energy of peace, we take that energy to the creation game. Peace, gratitude, abundance. When you feel the abundance of your current life and circumstances, Then you take that energy to the creation game, you can go create and upgrade all day long.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Because you have to create something. And one of the fears, Christian, as you were asking a question, I was thinking about a lot of managers and leaders and teams that I've worked with, where the fear of the leadership is, oh, if we tell the team they're doing good, then they'll never get any better. It's not true. That denies the resilience and the valiant spirit that human beings possess. They will move forward to create.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And think about your own energy. K? Because this is a lot about energy management. When we talk about positivity, it's about it's steering our thoughts, but also managing our energy. Because what we think about, we bring about.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Meaning, we get to imagine what we're going to create, and what do you want, something worse or something better? Duh. Guess what? Your team wants the same thing. But if we spend all of our energy telling our team, because we're in creation mode think about it.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:As as a leader in that team, you're in creation mode. You want something better. And and when we come at our teams and say, you can do better. Come on. You can do better.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:You can do better. Well, our team is in evaluation mode. And when we say we want something better, they hear, you're not good enough. What if we were to meet them with this energy? You are awesome.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:You are rocking it. We are doing well. And you guys, we are compared to something worse. Right? So in evaluation mode, we join them there, we create that energy, and then they naturally join us in creation mode to go make an upgrade.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:This is the dilemma that we face as leaders of teams. Because if our focus is constantly on improvement, our teams are going to hear inadequacy. We get to join them for a moment in enjoying and celebrating the good, rich abundance that we have already created. Pause. Feel it.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Generate that energy, and then we naturally move into creation mode. So back to your question directly, Christian, if we're thinking that things are exactly as they should be or I'm right on schedule, won't that lead to complacency? And I will say it could, but it's unlikely. What that does is it creates an energy that we now take to creation mode because we have to go create something. And everybody wants an upgrade.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:I think about my phone. I think this is like an iPhone 7 or 8 or something. I don't know. But I think they're up to, like, 43 now. And I look at this, it's got more computing power than the Space Shuttle.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:It can do more than my first seven computers combined. It's awesome, and I want an upgrade. Why would I want an upgrade? Because there's one available. And and given the choice, people will always choose an upgrade.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:I think we need to trust our teams to be humans and to honor their powerful creative spirit. The resilience and the creativity that humans possess never ceases to amaze me.
Spencer Horn:Let me share with you an example of, and and I agree with you, doctor Paul. Christian, you know I've talked about Kelvin. You've met him. I actually interviewed him this past week for for my book. I I was able to sit down with him.
Spencer Horn:And, you know, I I experienced what very few people experience, and that is an incredible mentor and leader that I absolutely adored and loved working for. And he's, you know, he's close to 90. I I don't know exactly his age, but we spent almost 2 hours. And and and I just said, you know, how how would you describe your your your business and leadership philosophy? He said, I believe in the dignity of the human soul, and it's all about treating people with dignity.
Spencer Horn:And I'll tell you, I have never worked harder for any individual than for that. He used to say, I don't care if you work 20 hours a week or 80 hours a week as long as you get your work done. I ended up working 80 hours a week all the time, but I was excited to do it because I I he sat me down one time and and I asked him this question, Christian, because I've I've I've talked about this. He he gave me an ultimatum. He says, I I need you to step up.
Spencer Horn:I'm gonna give you 6 months, and if you can't if you can't do it, I'm gonna have to replace you. And I asked him, Kelvin, and I said, Kelvin, do you he's I don't even remember that. And, and I said, yeah. And and at the end of 6 months, he promoted me. And he says, well, you you you must have done something right.
Spencer Horn:He says, one of the gifts I have is I just let stuff go. I don't remember any of that, but, you know, what a what a great leader. He challenged me and and pushed me. And because, you know, many people would hear a a a conversation like that with your boss and think, oh, I need to look for another job. I'm out of here.
Spencer Horn:But the opposite was true with me, and I was I need to get it together because I don't want to let him down. I I, I don't want to leave here. I want to stay here. And so I think that really illustrates what you're saying, but I want to, I want to reverse that. And I had a conversation recently with, with with a project manager that's working on a team that has a toxic CEO.
Spencer Horn:And, this this person, I don't wanna give any hints away who who it might be because I I want them to actually listen to this and and feel confident that, you know, people don't know what what they're talking about. But this team, was was, you know, project team was high performing. They merged with another team that didn't have enough resources. And so, this project manager of this team was, you know, meeting all their expectations and demands. Well, several members of the team quit because of the environment that the CEO has created.
Spencer Horn:And so they went from a 4 team member to this one member, and yet this individual was tasked with maintaining the level of productivity that the team of 4 did. Now this person's been with this company for over 2 decades and losing hope. How, you know, you want to talk about team frustration. How do you know, we've been talking about the leaders creating that environment. What if you're on a team where you have a toxic leader?
Spencer Horn:How do you handle that?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And you're coming from the perspective of being on the team, not the leader.
Spencer Horn:Well, this individual and and other people who are who are in that same environment.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:The the interesting thing about this model is that circumstance, as all others, is neutral. And noticing that we're judging, k, Labeling the leader as a toxic leader is a judgment. Now I'm not even arguing with the accuracy of it. I'm just saying that's a judgment, and that creates an energy. When you're on a team and and something is going in a direction that is not productive, or pleasant, or it causes you some pain, or difficulty, or challenge, we get to do the same process.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:So first of all, you come to peace somehow with what it is, even though it's really tempting to go over here and say, no, this is bad, this is terrible, this is horrible, this is I I had a guy in my office, He's like complaining about his boss, and how this team that he's working on is toxic. He didn't use those words, but basically that's what was going on. And I stopped him at some point. I said, wait. You have a job?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Okay. And he rolled the sides out for a little bit. He's like, okay. Right? He has a job.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:He's getting paid for it. This how cool and amazing is that? What I was trying to do is getting get him into a positive evaluation of what it is. Why? So that he could stay there forever?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:No. So that he would have the energy that's required to go into creation mode and create an upgrade. See, we're still managing energy all along. If you're in a circumstance that is not to your liking for whatever reason, You still get to come to peace with that somehow, because that creates the energy for you to move forward and create an upgrade, and it might mean that you change teams. It might mean that you change careers.
Spencer Horn:Yeah. Yeah. No. That's that that that and that's exactly right. And and, you know, it's I I didn't have your your your scholarly approach.
Spencer Horn:Mine was how, you know, you got to let go of attachment of of what's going on right here and say, you know, what are your options? And, and are you willing to to make a change if if that's necessary? And as soon as you let go of of, you know, what what's whatever is controlling you, and you can start having the power or the energy to make a change that you need to get that upgrade.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:One thing that that you might think of here, Spencer, is that you're gonna neutralize Yeah.
Spencer Horn:I like that. Neutralize
Dr. Paul Jenkins:the circumstance. Yeah. Because that's a little easier than saying, well, it's neutral. Neutralize it. Meaning, okay, it is what it is.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Now what can I do with this? And it engages that creative power. It looks like you were gonna say something, Kristen.
Christian Napier:Well, I was actually gonna ask a question because the example that you just gave, Spencer, is a good example of a person feeling overwhelmed. Right? They just lost their team members. Now I have all the responsibility, and you feel a a sense of despair, a lack of belief. You know?
Christian Napier:So it's one thing to feel frustrated where you're not happy with your circumstances. There's another you feel overwhelmed by believing that there's nothing you can do about it. You
Spencer Horn:know? Hopelessness. It it
Christian Napier:it yeah. It's hopelessness. I I have this feeling of despair. And so these these feelings of frustration and being overwhelmed, I think, are related, but they're also a bit different. And you, doctor Paul, in in the video that you shared with us had a a really interesting approach to dealing with this be this feeling of being overwhelmed, using the example of, of a Pixar movie, which I think is quite appropriate.
Christian Napier:So I'm I'm curious if you can just kind of walk us through, this situation where we might find ourselves in as a leader or as a member of a team like Spencer just mentioned, where we're feeling overwhelmed by our circumstance and how you can address that.
Spencer Horn:Losing a house right now or in that bankruptcy situation that you and I were in.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Yes. I I like to always break this down, doing the metacognition. Okay? Thinking about thinking. What is overwhelm?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And and part of the way my brain works is looking for the opposite. So what's the opposite of overwhelm? Maybe underwhelmed. But we don't wanna be that either. So what would it look like to be perfectly whelmed?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:That's a weird question. You never hear hear people asking that. They should hang around me. I mean, I ask those kind of questions, but what do I what would it mean to be perfectly well? So I'm looking up whelmed.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:You can look it up. I mean, there's a definition for that. That's actually a word in English that means completely surrounded by or immersed in. So a fish is perfectly whelmed in the water. Now if I were in the same position with the fish, I might feel overwhelmed because that's a little too much water for me.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:So if you look at you look at what it means to be overwhelmed, it's a belief or a thought. Again, we're coming right back to this. K? It's a belief or a thought that there's too much. Too much water, too much to do, too much required of me right now, and not enough time.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:K? So that's kind of the foundational belief between behind being overwhelmed as opposed to frustrated, which is things are not the way they should be. And you might be frustrated about being overwhelmed because, well, the thing that's not the way it should be is there's too much that's required. Right? So just track the thinking of that.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And once you identify the thoughts and you separate that from the circumstances, Remember, the circumstances are neutral. So your list of tasks or requirements right now it's neutral. K? It is what it is. You could be asked to do more, you could be asked to do less.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:But here you are. Okay? So noticing that first, then you can call that belief into question. You can say, well, am am I being asked too much? Because it's less than it could be.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:It's more than it might be, but here it is. It's neutral. And I think what you're referring to, Christian, was, a reference I may have made to Dory from Finding Nemo. It's a little blue tang that is voiced by Ellen DeGeneres, and you guys know the movie. But there's a point in the movie where Dory's just kinda swimming along and she has this theme, just keep swimming, just keep swimming.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Right? And what if we had that approach? What if we felt that way about the water in which we swim? And I I work with a lot of entrepreneurs. I do a certification for positivity practitioners.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And a lot of these people are coaches or speakers or influencers who often get into that position. Entrepreneurs do this all the time, where they're wearing all of the hats. K? They they they're doing everything from emptying the garbage to closing a sales call. And they feel overwhelmed a lot of times.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:It's helpful to look at that as the water in which we swim. It's just the way this world is, and we start to move away from the thought that it shouldn't be like this, where I'm being asked too much, but fish never feels like there's too much water. So that's the the the way that we can come to a different belief about the water in which we swim.
Spencer Horn:You know, again, it's interesting. It seems like that that that's a simple solution. There are people that actually, because of their overwhelm and frustration, have medical conditions where they're, high blood pressure or they are, physically ill because of their just how they're thinking about their environment can actually manifest itself in in physical, symptoms. Have you seen that?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Oh, absolutely. Remember your brain is part of your body. It's an organ in your head, and it is connected very literally through blood vessels and nerves to every other part of your body. So it's no surprise that when our brain is processing things in a certain way, it impacts every system in our body. And there's a lot of research that shows this we've known, that stress, anxiety, overwhelm, frustration, anger, all of these things impact the actual physical systems in your body.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:It's actually
Spencer Horn:Which actually which actually adds to the overwhelm. Right? It's like a virtuous circle of of negativity going down.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Well, your brain remember I told you there's 2 main jobs that your brain has to keep you safe and to prove you right. And when your body goes into stress, your brain is concluding that you are not safe, and so it secretes additional chemicals into your bloodstream that trigger what we call the fight or flight response.
Spencer Horn:To help you run away from it.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Yeah. And and it those chemicals are hard on your systems.
Spencer Horn:Yeah. So, you know, we're time has gone very fast. Right, Christian? I mean, we've just got a couple of minutes left. Can you share with us, just any success stories of of people that have been able to change their their circumstances on their teams and their life by utilizing the this this approach, this model that you have introduced to us?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:You know, I could share all kinds of personal examples of people I have known personally or worked with over the years. I've seen this work with teams. And since we're talking about teamwork, I'm thinking of a a technology company that I've worked with now for several years. They bring me in every other week to do a half hour training with their team. All their customer service people, all their sales people, everybody, it's an all hands meeting.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:We have a little doctor Paul checkup from the neck up every other Friday. And after the first two years of working with this company, their revenues doubled. And the that caught the CEO's attention. He's like, wait. This is showing up in our bottom line?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And when you think about it, that's not too surprising because every member of that team happens to be human.
Spencer Horn:Well, that's a surprise.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And their brains operate in very similar ways and every one of them is doing both evaluation and creation, constantly they can't turn it off. So what we're doing there is creating a context in which we've installed, an owner's manual. It's the operating instructions for the equipment that every member of that team is using. And you wouldn't put you wouldn't fill up your factory with people and not teach them how to use the equipment of the factory, but we fill up our teams with humans who have no idea how to operate the equipment of their own mind. Just baffles me.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:So I I use that as a very tangible example of how this, you know, how do we measure success? And for a company or a team, it's usually in productivity or profit.
Spencer Horn:Oh, yeah.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:And this is an example of how this hit the bottom line in a big way and ensured that I have an ongoing contract.
Spencer Horn:Yeah. Thank you. Christian, I can't hear you.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:We're Just just muted.
Christian Napier:I inadvertently muted myself. This has been a fascinating hour for me, doctor Paul. I learned a lot, and I really appreciate you coming on with us. Again, after the first time when we had some technical difficulties, to share your, learnings and experiences and insights with us. And for our viewers and our listeners who will be who either are consuming this live or will be consuming it later, If they want to connect with you, if they wanna learn more about how a pathologically positive professional can help them.
Christian Napier:What's the best way for them to reach out and connect with you?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Well, you can find me, all over YouTube. I mean, that's where a lot of people find me. But what I would offer to your viewers and and members of our team here at Teamwork A Better Way is a free digital download of my mini book, Portable Positivity. You've see If you're watching the visual version of this podcast, you you see that I keep holding up a a model. K?
Dr. Paul Jenkins:It's a visual model. The mini book walks you through the whole model step by step. I break it down for you, and you get to have basically the operating instructions for the equipment.
Spencer Horn:It's a porta posi.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Yes. A porta posi. Spencer, I wish I would have thought of that before we put the title on the book. So go grab it. Just it's easy to find.
Dr. Paul Jenkins:Doctorpauljenkins dotcomerpauljenkins.com, and then do a little forward slash teamwork, all one word. I've created that link just for subscribers to this podcast. Go grab it. You'll get a free digital download. If you want a physical copy, you just pick up shipping and I'll send it to you.
Christian Napier:Oh, that's awesome. What a great, great gift and, doctor Paul, thank you so much for doing that for our listeners and viewers. We will put the link in the show notes so people can get that, by clicking on the link there. So so grateful for that. And, Spencer, you spent decades helping teams increase their performance all over the world.
Christian Napier:If people want
Spencer Horn:to learn more about how you could potentially help them, how should they contact you? Just look me up on LinkedIn, Spencer Horn, the team performance authority. And back at you, Christian, how can people find the amazing metacognitioner?
Christian Napier:You know, just go to LinkedIn. Look for Christian Napier. You'll find me there, and I'm happy to connect with anyone and and engage in a conversation. So, again, doctor Paul, thank you so much for giving an hour of your time. Before we forget, though, Spencer, we've got a great show next week.
Christian Napier:So what
Spencer Horn:are we talking about next week? We're talking about how to have stay interviews instead of exit interviews. Get people to to be excited about staying instead of, you know, talking to them after they've left. Get that information before they leave, and, we'll we'll we'll talk about that. So how to how to keep your team strong, and the retention is so, so important.
Spencer Horn:So here's a technique to help improve your retention.
Christian Napier:Alright. Fantastic. And that will be what? When next week will
Spencer Horn:be the 20th You you you're gonna have me,
Christian Napier:the 20th at noon EST, 10 AM mountain, I think, is when we're
Spencer Horn:That's right.
Christian Napier:That's right. So tune in on the 20th February noon EST 10 AM mountain time. Listeners and viewers, thank you for spending an hour with us today. We really appreciate it. Again, doctor Paul, thank you so much.
Christian Napier:Like and subscribe to our podcast. We'll catch you again soon. Thank you.