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The gang dishes out yet another in depth discussion answering questions from small groups at Sandals Church. This week the conversation ranges from what it costs to follow Jesus, to who should go overseas and the pros and cons of biblical numerology. Pastor Matt Brown and Pastor Wayne Cordeiro of New Hope Oahu sit down to talk about how they met and how to find the perfect mentor.
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
You hate the beach.
Justin Pardee:Yeah, dude. Sand always getting in your sandwiches. I said that's like my number one
Matt Brown:It's rather
Stephanie Schaefer:called sandwiches.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Exactly. You go to the beach, your mom packs you a snack of sandwich. You put it in a ziplock bag inside a cooler.
Matt Brown:Why does everything evolve around food? Yeah.
Stephanie Schaefer:Maybe you just shouldn't eat at the beach.
Justin Pardee:Somehow, you still open it up. You put your the sandwich in your mouth and there's too much crunch and it's not the lettuce. Hey, everybody and welcome to the Debrief Podcast. This is episode 12. I am your friendly little host Justin Pardee and hey, this is a weekly podcast from us here at Sandals Church with pastor Matt doing questions and your answers.
Justin Pardee:No, it's it's it's your questions and his answers from the bible based on the sermons and the other questions you guys have coming up. We're gonna jump into some q and a in a minute, but we have pastor Wayne Cordero from New Hope Church in Honolulu, Hawaii with us this weekend and it was a really great opportunity for pastor Matt and Wayne to sit down together. So we're gonna have a little listen in on their conversation before we get over to that q and a.
Matt Brown:Hey, Sandals Church. This is pastor Matt. We had a great weekend with pastor Wayne Cordero, and so privileged to have him here and super excited. So thank you, Wayne, for being here.
Wayne:Oh, absolutely. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. You've got you've got a great church. People have super good hearts and willing to grow. So for me, that just fills my tank.
Matt Brown:Oh, thank you. And hopefully you're gonna come back. So I'm really really hopeful Thank you. You'll come back.
Wayne:Maybe if you pay my way next time, Absolutely. I
Matt Brown:You can get on that. So let me just share with you guys just a little bit how I met Wayne. And so in my thirties, as you know, our listeners from San Luis Church, went through a period of depression and just really really struggling. And I'll never forget the first time we went to New Hope Church in Honolulu. We were invited by the Tongs, Jan Tong, which you know, and her husband when he was alive.
Matt Brown:And he was battling with cancer at the time Yes. And in treatment. And he took us there, and I just wept. I cried from the beginning of the service to the end of the service. And and so for me, new hope became a place of hope in ministry.
Matt Brown:It became a a place of of just healing and nurture. And so I began to read your books, listen to your sermons. Mhmm. And and as you know, you know, I was going through some dark times in friendships, in my professional relationships at Sandals. It was the church was growing way beyond my ability, way beyond my character, way beyond everything, and I was imploding.
Matt Brown:And so I just was so blessed by you. I've got to come to DCAT doing church as a team, and just really started getting to know you. We've paddled together a couple of times. I paddled with your son Aaron. I was the worst person on the team.
Matt Brown:We had
Wayne:to drag you through the water. It was terrible, It was alright.
Matt Brown:Yeah. I think you guys picked me because I'm a little fit, but I was terrible. I was like the worst worst guy possible, man, because I don't understand the rhythm of it. But it was fun. I think we beat the Methodists that were there that day we were racing.
Matt Brown:So but so anyways, you know, Wayne, you've just been such a a pivotal mentor to me with your writings and your teaching, and such a such a beautiful picture of what I hope to be. You've been faithful to your wife, your family, your church, and it's just such a blessing. So I just wanna say thank you, Like I was sharing with you last night after the message, just thank you for coming. I love you. You talked this weekend with the church about God's word, the divine mentor.
Matt Brown:Yes. How did you come up with that concept? Because I love it.
Wayne:Well, you know, I've seen people in churches, and they're around on Sunday mornings, and they go to bible studies, but it's like they haven't grown for the last five years. Sometimes we get older, but we don't get any wiser. Yeah. And I thought, no, if if we are people of God, the older we get, the more sensitive, the wiser, the the deeper we should be with a greater insight, greater understanding, and so I thought, well, what's going on? And as I looked around and talked with people, I noticed that they were still Christians, they still serve, but their relationship with the word of God was anemic at best because most of their feeding was on Sundays, and I thought, man, if I only ate on Sundays, would I would have I had trouble.
Wayne:I'd have trouble.
Matt Brown:You'd be an unhappy Hawaiian.
Wayne:Yes. And so I thought, what if I matched my spiritual life with my physical life? Now my physical life, I've got to eat three times a day, not And yet in our spiritual life, we eat once a week and we think that's good enough. So I saw that dichotomy, and that's what began a quest in my life to think through the fact that our spiritual life is as if not more important than our physical life.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Absolutely. So here's the thing. Let me tell you this, and we haven't talked about this, but when I first heard of the the book Divine Mentor, I thought, you know, you're talking about God. But what you're talking about is God and his people.
Matt Brown:And so talk to me about how you've you said this in your sermon this week. You said, these people are my friends. You know, you talked about Jeremiah. You talked about Joseph. That that was a great illustration of Joseph ran through the room.
Matt Brown:It was fantastic. And so I love that idea of these characters in the Bible that aren't characters, they're real people with real struggles are your mentors. So tell me
Wayne:Because about in the New Testament, twice it says, one in Romans 15 and the other in first Corinthians 10, it says, these things that were written down were written for our benefit, so that through perseverance and the scriptures, we will have hope. And then it says again, these things happen as examples for us upon whom the ends of the ages have come. So it tells me that God had all of these recorded for us so that we would gain the wisdom of the ages, and he handpicked these people. It wasn't at random Right. That there was a David or a Joshua or a Moses or a Solomon.
Wayne:These were handpicked, and then he had some scribe or they themselves wrote down
Matt Brown:Right.
Wayne:All as a journal, all of their wanderings, all of their discoveries, their success, and their foibles. For whom? For us. For people who would come after them. And then God said, I will inspire this so that the lessons that were learned in the past will be learned in the future through their mistakes and that we don't have to recurringly make them.
Wayne:Mhmm. So these are friends. These are my divine mentors. They they guide us. They they walk with us, and the Lord said that in Hebrews four, the word of God is living.
Wayne:So these people still speak as he says of Abel in Hebrews eleven four. Though Abel is dead, he still speaks.
Matt Brown:Yeah. That's incredible. And so I think that, you know, I'm thinking about our congregation. We have a lot of non Christians that come to church, new Christians. And I think they look at you and they they think, you know, I wanna be like that guy.
Matt Brown:You know, I mean, I I look at you and and I say that. I wanna be like you. And I love what you said about how wisdom doesn't come in a day, but it comes daily.
Wayne:Yes.
Matt Brown:And so share with us about how God has given you wisdom, so that you can be who you are today. Because there are a lot of people saying, I wanna be like that, but your process has been daily time in the word.
Wayne:Yeah. It comes in layers. It's sort of like if you saw a beautifully varnished table, it's not one thick coat of varnish. It's probably 30 or 40 of these coats, which give it depth, that gives it a sense of translucence, and our lives are in the same way. It doesn't happen overnight.
Wayne:They even say that about, it's kind of tongue in cheek, but it takes about fifteen years to become an overnight success. Yeah. Because it's a process. The depth of God in one's life does not happen instantly, it it eventuates over time because you're developing the character that allows there to be, more of an insight. You have to have perseverance before you have understanding.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Wayne:So all of these are layers. And then when it's all stacked up, now you're beginning to understand
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Wisdom. Yeah. And so, one of the things that I do in my bible is I always write down the date whenever I read something. So there's little dates all throughout my bible. And it's always amazing.
Matt Brown:God's word didn't change, but what I hear changes.
Wayne:It
Matt Brown:does. Because my life has changed.
Wayne:Right.
Matt Brown:And so how has how has God's word you talk about those layers. How has it changed for you over the years as as you've gotten layer after layer?
Wayne:Yeah. Because sometimes, you know, two years ago, I wasn't in a position or I didn't have a heart posture to hear something. God has to bring us to a point where maybe sometimes of desperation or crisis. And I always say, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste. Yeah.
Wayne:Because what God has done is he's postured you in such a way that now you're ready to hear. Now you're ready to accept. Now you're ready to submit. And so he gives you certain lessons knowing that it'll take you some maturity before you get the next lesson. So God gives you layer by layer by layer.
Wayne:Because would've He would've given you a lesson that you'll get next year.
Matt Brown:Right.
Wayne:If he gave it to you today, you would squander it.
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Wayne:You wouldn't understand it. You would missteward that. Yeah. Absolutely. I don't know, Matt, if this is theologically accurate, but when Joseph shared the fact that he had dreams Yeah.
Wayne:And that his brothers were gonna bow down to him, oh, by the way, consequently dead, you're going to as well. I don't know if God gave that to Joseph and it was
Matt Brown:Time to share it.
Wayne:Untimely spoken and then shared, and I'm wondering if maybe God sometimes says, you know, I think I'm gonna like with Abraham, I think we're gonna hide Yeah. For a little while what we're gonna say until he's ready.
Matt Brown:Right. Absolutely. So another thing I love about you is your transparency as a leader, and you've gone through some emotionally challenging times. How has the word of God been there for you in times of burnout, in times of just real emotional pain? How has that been, you know, because a lot of times, the first thing people do is they stop reading God's word when they go through an emotionally dark period.
Matt Brown:So how has that benefited you?
Wayne:Yeah. You know, Matt, when you go through valleys and times of discouragement, you wanna jettison, you wanna unload everything you can because you feel your life is too heavy, it's too complicated. So you wanna simplify it from exponential multiplication to just like addition and subtraction. You want to get rid of everything you can, get back to the simplicity of life. Wanted to, when I got to that point of depression, I wanted to get rid of everything.
Wayne:But one of the things I knew I never would and never could would be the discipline of hearing God. I remember one day saying, I need every voice to be quiet in my life. And then I said, I don't wanna hear from anybody. And then in my carnal mind, was thinking, even God, because he might challenge me. Right.
Wayne:And I'm not ready to be challenged. And I caught myself, and I thought, no, accept God. I need to hear his voice only. And then I understood that the avenue through which that would be heard most clearly is through the Bible and through my daily times in the Bible. So I though I jettisoned every other discipline and responsibility, I said, I cannot let that one go because that's my only lifeline, And if I let that go, I'm done.
Wayne:That was my lifeline.
Matt Brown:Yeah. It's it's amazing. You know, we both pastor, you know, in this age where, you know, we meet Christians all the time who don't go to church and don't read the word, but they consider them followers of Christ. What would you say to a person who you know, if if they're listening to this podcast, they're probably going to church. But what would you say to that person that's not in God's word?
Matt Brown:Like, what what what would be your plea to that person that just for whatever reason, you know, can't read, ADD, too busy. What what would you say to that person?
Wayne:Yeah. You know, you can still be a Christian and not know God's word. You can still go to heaven. But the question really is how fruitful do you want to be with your life? I mean, we've got one life to live.
Wayne:This is it. Right? Yeah. And once this is over, we're in heaven. Now, we'll make it to heaven, but I wanna make a difference on earth
Matt Brown:as well.
Wayne:That's why God sent you and me here. Right? It wasn't to just buy time, get saved, and and if the only reason God saved us was to get us into heaven, then as soon as you would have received Christ, he probably would have killed you. Good mice will get you into heaven now. Right?
Wayne:No use of hanging around here, eating somebody else's food, taking But up it wasn't. God saved you and me and left us here for a purpose. But we don't have that all worked out yet, so God says, if you will stay at my feet, I will disclose everything you need to hear. But, you're not ready right now for the whole enchilada. Right.
Wayne:I'm gonna give it to you one level, one strata at a time. Yeah. And so, I would say to those that are Christians, how much a, b, c, d, e, or f, how much of a passing grade do you want on this earth? And, you know, I I wanna when I stand before God, I want him to say, well done. Amen.
Wayne:You know, I don't want him to say, well, you got a d plus. You know? Yeah. And I I want him to say, you did
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Wayne:What I asked you to do. Paul the Apostle said in Philippians that I might apprehend that for which he apprehended me for. We've gotta come to grips with what is our purpose? Why did God put me here? There's a reason.
Wayne:And he says, if you will stay with me, I'll whisper it to you, but I'll whisper it along the way because you're gonna need character along with knowledge. Because if you don't, then you'll misuse the knowledge, and the Pharisees did that. Yeah. And so, that's why Jesus said, you in Mark 11, you because you know not the scriptures nor the power of God. And so, we can be people known for our religion, but still make huge errors because we know not the scriptures.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Amen. I think in your sermon too, you also it wasn't in your notes, but you quoted, second Timothy three sixteen. Yes.
Matt Brown:And I often use that verse actually in weddings when I talk to the men. You say, you're never you're not gonna know who she is or what she wants, but I love the verse that that it will equip the man of God for every good work. And so just that process of God's word is gonna give me experience and wisdom that I don't have on my own.
Wayne:Matt, I I wanna encourage every Christian to and I know this is a high call and a high challenge, but to dedicate the rest of your life to the mastery of one book. Amen. Because if you don't, you won't know how to answer or you'd have no recourse against the enemy. In Luke four, how often Jesus said, To every temptation, it is written. It is written.
Wayne:It is written. If we don't know what is written, how will you be able to defend yourself against the wiles of the enemy? It is so critical. Jesus himself says, I came to fulfill the scriptures. Well, he better have known what the scriptures were.
Wayne:And how often he quotes out of the prophets. He just quotes out of the book of And his whole life was guided by the word of God. And so, he leaves us an example, says Peter, to follow in his steps. So, we have to. The other thing is, with all of the different things God wants for my future and for your future, Matt, if he just told it to you, you wouldn't remember it.
Wayne:You've got to write it down. Yeah. And so, God spoke to Moses and David and Paul the Apostle. They wrote it down and so we can read it and not necessarily have to reach again to where they are, but start from where they were and actually increase. So, I would encourage every Christian, dedicate your life to the mastery of one book, and that starts with every day.
Wayne:A twenty twenty. Just twenty minutes reading the Bible. Twenty minutes journaling. If you get one gem after one year, you will have had deposited to your account over 365. And, boy, I tell you, if you can increase 365% a year, wow.
Wayne:Yeah. Amen. That's my heart.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Well, thank you, Wayne. So glad to have you. We love you. You're always welcome at Sandals and we enjoyed
Wayne:your teaching. Thank you.
Justin Pardee:Well, hey guys. We are excited to jump into some q and a. We're gonna do some lightning round stuff today. It was so cool having Wayne here hanging out with us this weekend.
Matt Brown:Yeah. It was awesome except for the fact that he made fun of the fact that I'm white.
Justin Pardee:That that he did. Yes. But shout out to pastor Wayne though because on Sunday morning here, he was rocking the Debrief podcast t shirt.
Matt Brown:I know. Yeah. He was so cool. He's repping us big time.
Justin Pardee:Indeed. Okay. So also speaking of people repping us, I want to say thank you to everybody who is leaving some awesome reviews for us in iTunes and ratings. We continue to get up there. We saw we were number number one in the religious new and noteworthy stuff, which is awesome right next to a podcast on
Matt Brown:I saw that. Tarot
Justin Pardee:cards. Tarot cards or something like that.
Matt Brown:What is wrong with our country, dude?
Justin Pardee:Amazing. It's just crazy. And then all of that stuff is happening.
Matt Brown:Thank God we beat them though. Geez.
Justin Pardee:Can you imagine? That's true. Because we were number two too.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Pastor Matt Brown, number two behind tarot card tarot card
Justin Pardee:update. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Stephanie Schaefer:It's our weekly podcast.
Justin Pardee:Dude, we've been getting some great reviews though. I think we have 36 reviews right now which is every one of them is five stars. So we got one from listen, Undercover Eskimo. He left a review. Waste another Tuesday of your
Matt Brown:life without listening to this. Way to go, Undercover Eskimo.
Justin Pardee:Exactly. Also, I'm sorry if you're a
Matt Brown:female in Alaska though, not a lot going on. Sorry.
Justin Pardee:That's that's big.
Stephanie Schaefer:She's trying to stay undercover and you
Justin Pardee:just Exactly. Called her dick. Outed her. Okay. Listen.
Justin Pardee:This one's from Joey Valdez. I'm not going read the whole thing, but this is what he said. You're to like what he did here. He called it the deep brief. Woah.
Justin Pardee:Wow. Isn't that great? Yeah. It's not just because of your voice. I think it's because the spiritual content is Maybe it's is pretty high.
Matt Brown:I told you I would be a natural bait base if I wasn't so tight.
Justin Pardee:It's true. Yeah. Okay. So this here's the one and I want get you guys feedback on this little review. It's from Nynchens.
Justin Pardee:I have no idea what you
Wayne:just said.
Justin Pardee:Was that English? It's Nynchens. Here's the here's the review. Well, there's the one part I want to highlight to you says, amongst all this other great stuff about the podcast, I love Justin asking the questions even though he pauses a little bit too long sometimes. And I just been feeling a little self conscious in that since I read that on Thursday.
Justin Pardee:Have you guys noticed? Am I pausing too long at sometimes?
Stephanie Schaefer:You were pausing a lot when you did it right there,
Matt Brown:but not normally.
Justin Pardee:Well, that was subconscious
Matt Brown:we call in ministry is the chocolate covered turd. So it's a compliment, but after you bite into it, it's
Justin Pardee:you lost me a chocolate. Alright. So we got a lightning round. We got a ton of questions that have been coming in and stacking up and we are going to jump into them. We should
Stephanie Schaefer:I'm going to start with the first one from Liz's group. They're actually listening to episode four and somebody in her group had a question. Can a child be overcome by demonic spirits or unwanted spirits from a relationship that was not godly? If yes, how can we protect them from these spirits?
Matt Brown:Woah. Yeah. So I mean, obviously that's a question that I don't have near enough information, and so the first thing I would do is if you're concerned, what what I would do is make an appointment with a pastor at church
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And try to figure out what's going on. But, you know, in my experience, usually children are are not. I think God protects them immensely. There was even a case in our church where a person was subject to ritualistic satanic abuse in our church as a And when we met with her, she was she was not demon possessed at all, even though the parents were doing incredibly abusive things, I mean, worthy of prison time. And so, you know, I I would just say no, you know, if you're feeling concerned or worried, you know, pray, but pray don't pray in such a way that you scare the kid.
Matt Brown:I mean, that's I think that's the worst thing to do is is to make the kid more worried and scared of the dark than they already are. Right. And so, know, don't terrify your children, you know, but just trust God and ask God to to protect your kids, and I believe that he will do that. And so, you know, I don't know what she's saying there from a relationship. Was it, you know, is this a relationship with someone where a kid was abused?
Matt Brown:Is this a relationship with a teenage child where, you know, they got involved sexually? You know, I so I don't I can't comment because there's just not enough detail here to the question. And and so let me just say that anytime I'm rendering advice to people about their lives, I always try to be really really careful because these are people's lives that we're talking about, and we need as much information as possible, and I don't want to be flipping in my answers because your lives matter, and and I care about you. So I would just say in general, you know, I think that kids are enormously protected if you are concerned. Certainly we've had situations, not not like the example she used, but we've had situations where parents have come in and said, hey, I'm really really, you know, concerned with what's happening here.
Matt Brown:And, you know, don't be afraid to ask. I mean, we we believe the spiritual world is real. You know, we believe that these things can happen, and so I wouldn't I wouldn't be so afraid about it that I that I didn't bring it up, and I didn't bring it to someone's attention. We have incredible ministers here, incredible people that will pray with you, work with you to discover, you know, and find out what's going on. And so again, in all situations, I think that it's important, and we talked about this I believe on that week that, you know, issues are are mind body and soul issues, you know, sometimes they're physical, sometimes they're emotional, and sometimes they're spiritual.
Wayne:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so when you're facing something with a child, you need to exercise and look at all three of those avenues. And so, sometimes it requires counseling, sometimes it requires, you know, some some mental healing that needs to take place, and sometimes there's some spiritual things that need to take place. And so that's what I would say is, you know, if you're concerned to the point where you feel like this is a real issue, come into the church, you know, talk with us, and so we can dive into this situation deeper. I just don't feel comfortable commenting on it with that little of information.
Justin Pardee:Right. Okay. So here's another question kind of about family and still from Luke chapter eight. This came from Lorraine in Melissa's group. So, Luke chapter eight verses 19 through 21, basically Jesus's mother and brothers show up to see him where he's preaching, but they can't get inside the house where he's at.
Justin Pardee:And Jesus replies, my mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do that. What does Jesus mean by that?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So, mean, we're right. We all have biological family, and those are blessings in our lives. You know, I have my mom, my dad, I have my wife and my kids, you know, that's my biological family, but I also have my spiritual family. And that includes, you know, Stephanie and you.
Matt Brown:You guys are part of my family forever. And so, what Jesus is saying is there's a uniqueness in terms of his relationship to those who love him and obey him. And at that point in time, his mother and his brothers are not believers. You know, I don't know what happened to Mary, but at some point, right, the young woman who had an angel appeared to her, and then in Luke two fifty or in Luke two, not understanding why he's in the temple, at some point Mary got confused.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:And and thought that Jesus was just her kid again, or or she didn't fully understand. And and the gospels don't give us all the details, but you know, in the gospels, Mary actually tries to stop Jesus because she's concerned. The family thinks he's gone nuts. Mhmm. And they're worried that he's gonna get hurt and something bad's gonna happen to him.
Matt Brown:And so, oftentimes when they're pursuing him, and I think in this case specifically, they're not a part of Jesus' ministry yet. They're they're they have not accepted the truth of who he is yet. Now, eventually his brother James will accept the truth of who he is and will become the bishop of the church in Jerusalem, and probably the most powerful spiritual leader in the church after Christ's death. A lot of people don't realize that. That it's not Paul, it's not even Peter, but James becomes kind of the focal point of of the church for the first couple years after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Matt Brown:So, yeah. So what I think he's saying here is is his family, and that's what he's starting. He's not starting just a kingdom, but it's a family. When we when we become born again Christians, become a part of the family of God. And, you know, that's why, right, Jesus tells us, and I'm excited, you know, to go into Luke 11 this week, because we're gonna talk about the Lord's prayer this next week.
Justin Pardee:Cool.
Matt Brown:So Jesus says, when we pray, pray this way, our father. Not my father, but our father. And so we need to learn to see God as our dad, and we need to learn to approach him in that way. And there's something unique about our spiritual families, and that's why it always makes me so sad when people flip it flippantly move from church to church. I look at Sandals Church, my commitment to Sandals Church is is like my commitment to my family.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. It's something that I I am committed to, something that I, you know, that I I love deeply and and would die for. I mean, this is my spiritual family. And I think it's a tragedy that many Christians never realize the depth of love that God wants us to have for each other. And so I think Jesus is drawing a sharp line.
Matt Brown:He's not trying to be insulting to Mary or his his brothers, and we don't know where his his father is at that time, we assume that Joseph is dead. Because Joseph falls off the scene after the scene in Luke two when he's 12 years old. So at some point in time, Joseph passed away, or is out of the picture, you know, so we don't have a definitive statement there. But but Jesus is saying, look man, I am calling you to something radical. And that's why the church grew because people without families, people that had been enslaved from other countries and brought to the Roman Empire Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Many found a family. They didn't just find a religious experience. They didn't just go to church, but they found family. A family that loved you in spite of of what you've done or or or the mistakes you've made. And that's why, you know, I I picked the name Sandals for our church.
Matt Brown:And a lot of people don't know this, but in the nineties, I don't know if I've shared this on on the debrief, but I had these horrifically ugly toenails. Now, they have medicine for it. I took medicine. Okay. I don't I know.
Matt Brown:I have beautiful feet now, but but in the nineties you couldn't treat this fungus. You know those commercials with that little crunchy guy underneath the toenails? I had that. And so I was incredibly embarrassed to wear sandals in front of people, and like children would comment on it. Oh my gosh.
Matt Brown:What's wrong with uncle Matt's feet? Oh. It was just disgusting. And I thought, you know, I wanna be a part of a church where people can see the very worst of me, and still love me. And and a lot of people don't realize that, but the logo, you know, in our sandals, for the logo for sandals is actually two sandals.
Matt Brown:It's two left feet coming together.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And that's what our church is. It's it's people coming together to be real with each other, and that's just so absolutely important for our church because we are a spiritual family. Your biological family, you'll be with, you know, your whole lifetime until they die. Your spiritual family, you're gonna be with forever with Christ. And so, and that's what God's starting.
Matt Brown:He's starting a new family where we love each other, we care for each other, we serve each other. The church is supposed to be everything you wish your biological family was. Mhmm. So, church is supposed to operate the way your biological family should, but a lot of us come from very very unhealthy backgrounds. We come from broken families, we come from hurting families, some of us come from abusive families.
Matt Brown:And so, the church is supposed to be a place of healing and and nurturing, where like I said, we love each other because Christ has loved us. We forgive each other because Christ has forgiven us. We serve each other because Christ has served us. We give to each other because Christ has given to us. And the church is a beautiful beautiful place where we get we have the freedom to act selflessly.
Matt Brown:And that's why he says, my family are those who do what I say. And so that's what I'd say, some people have had awful experience with Christian. Jesus is saying, just because you have a Christian t shirt doesn't mean you're a follower of Christ.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:The followers of Christ are known for what they do. Those who do what I say, Jesus says, that's my family. Mhmm. Not the people who claim to know me, but the people who actually are different, are loving, are kind, you know. And that that's what that's what Christ is calling us to do.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, I think some people are a little offended by that, and and certainly we gotta be careful because cults grab this passage and separate people from their families, exclude people from their friends. You know, the Jehovah witnesses are notorious for doing this, ex you know, And I I don't just wanna pick on them because even churches, you know, do do this, and it's really really sad. I was actually talking to a young gal at Sandals East Valley this weekend, who moved her membership to Sandals, and and she started crying. I said, why is that? And she told me because her her former church disfellowshipped her.
Matt Brown:And I was just like, doesn't sound very Christ like, you know. And she'd grown up in this church and it just it just broke my heart. Mhmm. You know, because I want people to come to Sandals because they love it, not because they're to be here. My gosh, that's not the kingdom of God.
Matt Brown:Right. And so we got to be really really careful. Cults love to manipulate things like this, and and again, I'm not saying her church was a cult, but that's a cultish like behavior. And, you know, I mean, the church is not a prison. Right?
Matt Brown:I mean, you're you're not mandated to stay here. You know, the church is an invitation. It's a place for people to come and be loved and cared for, and so, you know, that's what I think Christ is talking about. So I don't know if I answered.
Justin Pardee:No. I loved that.
Matt Brown:I talked about it forever,
Stephanie Schaefer:so No. No.
Wayne:I loved it.
Stephanie Schaefer:I loved it. Our next question is from Justin in Alan's group. He said that you mentioned that Jesus is the head of God's army. Was this figurative? And why does God need an army if he's all powerful?
Stephanie Schaefer:Are there little gods that fight for power?
Matt Brown:Right. And so there's it's a multifaceted question there. Loaded. You know, so is Christ the head of God's army? Absolutely.
Matt Brown:There's also the archangel. You know, so the bible talks about, you know, in Ephesians, principalities and powers of the unseen world. And so there's there's a world out there that exists that that we we cannot see. And, you know, human life is not all life that there is. We we we don't know what that is, you know, is it spiritual life?
Matt Brown:Is it biological life? I mean, we don't know what it is, but the Bible says very very clearly that there are things out there, living beings, spirits, powers, principalities, rulers, kingdoms, all kinds of things that we're completely unaware of. And, you know, Jesus Christ says, you know, in the passage we talked about that if we if we don't accept him, you know, now that he will reject us, and he says he will reject us when he comes with his father and with the holy angels. So when Christ returns, right, there's gonna there's gonna be like this this pomp and this circumstance, and it's just gonna be like, woah, who are these people? And and and there's all kinds of rank and all kinds of rulers, and so to answer the question, is there are there other gods?
Matt Brown:No. Not with a capital g. Are there other gods with a little g? Absolutely. You see that all throughout the scriptures.
Matt Brown:You know, there is one God, one all powerful, almighty being, the alpha, the omega, you know, the beginning and the end. There's only one God like that, but there are all kinds of other supernatural, divine like beings that are incredibly powerful. And so, know, there is going to be a final battle. Revelation speaks of it, that Jesus Christ will lead God's armies, he will be riding a white horse and the bible says that literally swords of light will burst out of his eyes. I mean, it's just as powerful incredible, you know, battle that takes place.
Matt Brown:It's it's the it's the final battle, the the battle of Armageddon, and that's my favorite place when we go to Israel as a church, we stand on top of Nazareth overlooking the Valley Of Armageddon. And so the bible talks about that there will be a final battle that takes place, and this this understanding of good versus evil. Everything is moving towards this point. And so Christ is the leader of the armies. And so, you know, Joseph in the old testament, excuse me, not Joseph.
Matt Brown:Joshua. Joshua in the old testament, before they enter the promised land, he sees this angel and he's like, who are you? You know, are you for us or are you against us? Mhmm. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, he's it's it's just this powerful powerful experience, and and and I believe that's probably Christ. And it's just he's he's he's you know, sometimes referred to as the archangel of God, the warrior of God, And that's who Jesus is. He's he's the great warrior. The bible says in Revelations that his robe is dipped in blood. I mean, that's like, you know Pretty intense.
Matt Brown:Well, what's what's that movie where he pastes his fate blue? Oh, Brave Heart. Oh, Brave Heart, dude.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:You know, I mean, right? It's just like this freedom Yes. You know, moment. And, know, too bad Mel Gibson went crazy, because he made some awesome movies. But that's that's Christ, man.
Matt Brown:I mean, Christ is just this incredible, I wanna say a word I can't say, incredible word Yes. You know, awesomeness Yeah. Just warrior. And so so, yeah. He he is the head of God's armies.
Justin Pardee:So so why does God have this because why does he even need an army? What's the point of that? If he's totally all powerful, because like couldn't he just smite?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Abs absolutely. I don't know. We have to ask God when we get there,
Wayne:you know.
Matt Brown:So, is it figurative? Is it literal? You know, the book of Revelations indicates it's not much of a battle. Right. You know, everybody gets dressed up for nothing.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So, because Christ speaks and it's over. So, you know, I mean, even right, Jesus even refers to that with Satan. He says, I saw Satan fall like lightning. Now, he's not using the word lightning because it's impressive.
Matt Brown:Right? He's using it in the sense of immediacy. So when Satan is defeated, right? Think about lightning. Wham.
Matt Brown:Boom. You know, Satan got his butt kicked. Mhmm. Like that. And so so I don't know.
Matt Brown:You know, but God uses angels to fight. I mean, we see that we see that in, you know, the old testament. Angels fight for them. Mhmm. So so so they do serve a purpose.
Matt Brown:The question is, you know, why does God have it? You know, I don't know. Right. Not God.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. I like when you talked about just the pomp and circumstance of it all like pointing to how awesome and, yeah, just big and cool Yeah. God is.
Matt Brown:And so and so part of that is, right in the ancient world two thousand years ago, what made Caesar great? Well, what made Caesar great was his army. Yeah. Because without his army, he's not great. And so, is it figurative?
Matt Brown:Is it literal? So so what makes God great? He has this army that cannot be defeated. Does he need it? No.
Matt Brown:But he has it. That's awesome. Right? So he's awesome. And so, know, he's powerful and God creates things for purposes just like you and I have a purpose.
Matt Brown:Why did he create us?
Wayne:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:You know? I mean, because there was part of God's heart that that, you know, he just wanted to love us and and to enjoy us in a real relationship, and we're to enjoy him in a real relationship. And so, you know, God does what God does. That's what makes him God. He doesn't have to ask us, you know.
Matt Brown:He want an army? Okay. No one's complaining. Right?
Justin Pardee:That's awesome. Okay. So let's do this. Ray and Jesse's group asked this question that comes out of Luke eight and there's this story where in verse 52, it tells us about Jesus is healing Jairus' daughter and when he goes there to the family, Jesus says, stop weeping, she isn't dead, she's only asleep. And then in verses fifty four and five, he says, taking her by the hand, Jesus called saying child arise and her spirit returned and she got up at once.
Justin Pardee:So Ray's question is, was this little girl actually dead? And then if so, or whatever's going on there when this verse says that her spirit returned, what does that mean?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So I think I addressed that specifically in the message, but I'll go for it again. Right. So, yeah, I believe she's dead. Yeah.
Matt Brown:She's she is dead. That's why people laugh at him. You know, are you kidding me? She's dead. She's totally dead.
Matt Brown:People knew in the ancient world what a dead person was. And so, what I think Jesus is saying there is not that she's literally asleep, but look, in in the grand scheme of things she's simply taking a nap Mhmm. Because I'm going to wake her up. And that's what he says. Right?
Matt Brown:Little girl arise. Wake wake up and come back. And so, I think, you know, again, Jesus is limited in language to describe what's happening to what we can understand and to what the people can understand. And so the question of, you know, where did her spirit go is I think what you asked me. Yeah.
Matt Brown:You know, and so that's what what we talked about in that week's message is that our spirits go to one of two places when we die. One is, know, before Christ died on the cross, the bosom of Abraham. Mhmm. And so we'll talk about that in a couple of weeks when we talk about the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Yeah.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, there was this understanding of of two places of waiting. One, a place of comfort, the bosom of Abraham. The other, a place of torment where the rich man goes. A place of agony where he says, tell someone to dip their finger in water and touch my tongue. Right?
Matt Brown:He's parched. He's he's dying in agony. So Jesus is speaking to a desert crowd. So he's not gonna talk about the misery of Mount Everest and snow, because nobody's gonna understand, you know. But if if, you know, to our Eskimo listener, if Christ would have died on the cross in Anchorage, right?
Matt Brown:Right. The pictures of suffering would have been extreme cold. But they're in they're in The Middle East, so you know, heat is the problem. Mhmm. So so every single one of us when we die will go to one of two places.
Matt Brown:I think both places are a place of waiting. One is a place where we wait in paradise with Christ awaiting the final judgment where he will pass out our rewards for those of us who've given our faith and trust in Jesus Christ. The other is a place of prison, which is a place of waiting. So it's it's not hell yet. It's not the final judgment yet, but you're awaiting that final judgment.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so that's that's what I believe is happening. And again, we don't have all the pictures, you know. The Apostle Paul says, we see now, you know, things dimly. We we can't see. So, it's like trying to reading the Bible when we're looking at spiritual things and things that are beyond the earth, it's like trying to make out your own image in a in a maybe a fogged mirror.
Matt Brown:You can kind of see yourself, but you can't really see yourself. And so, there are just some things that we just ultimately have to trust to God. You know, Jesus said to the thief on the cross, he said, today you will be with me in paradise. And the word paradise actually means garden, which interesting. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:What did God create initially? A garden? Yeah. Where he walked with them and he talked with them, and so that's the word paradise. It really means like orchard Mhmm.
Matt Brown:You know, place of fruit trees. And again, what what what's in the Garden of Eden? Many fruit trees. Yeah. And one that you're not supposed to eat of.
Matt Brown:And so, know, the Apostle Paul says to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. And so, think prior to the resurrection, Jesus talks about that place of blessing as the bosom of Abraham. But post resurrection, we are with him in paradise. Abraham is with Christ in paradise. And so so I think she was really dead.
Matt Brown:Her spirit had gone to be with Christ, or or with Abraham, and had returned because of Christ. And like I said, so we talked about that that week that God God breathed our spirits into us. So we talked about in Genesis, you know, in the beginning when God he took Adam from the mud and he carved him and he breathed life into him. We even see that in Ezekiel, the valley of dry bones. So, right?
Matt Brown:He tells Ezekiel to prophesy, and these bones come to life, and muscles and tendons are all on them again. And then he tells Ezekiel, now breathe life into them. Command command my spirit to breathe life into them. Because in that image, right, they're fully they're they're standing corpses, and that's an army by the way. Yes.
Matt Brown:It's God's army. They're they're standing corpses, but they have no life in them yet. Ain't that bizarre? Mhmm. To think about bodies just standing there, and they they need the spirit of life in them.
Matt Brown:And so, Ezekiel prophesies over them, and they come to life. It's pretty powerful. It's a it's a it's a I mean, that's the basis of the understanding of the resurrection. It comes from Ezekiel where, oh, wait a minute. When you die, that's not it.
Matt Brown:There's there's something after that. And and so it's it's beautiful passage, beautiful imagery. Not only do we get a new body, but we get a new heart Mhmm. And we get God's spirit with us forever. So it's absolutely powerful.
Justin Pardee:Any parents looking to start reading the bible more with your kids? Ezekiel is probably just a great place to start right before you're tucking them in bed and Yeah.
Matt Brown:Bring that in
Justin Pardee:for you.
Matt Brown:There's some scary stuff in there. Stay away from like Ezekiel 28. Some intense stuff
Justin Pardee:in there.
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Stephanie Schaefer:Alright. Our next question is from Eric in Jake's group and he says that there's a lot in Luke eight and nine regarding the cost of following Jesus. What are some ways to help discern my role in following Jesus?
Wayne:Mhmm.
Stephanie Schaefer:For instance, whether I should go out into the nations to help plant churches and spread the gospel, or stay in my local community to spread the gospel, serve the church, and maybe support people financially to go overseas?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Absolutely. What a great question. And I think that every single Christian should be answering this question. Every single one of us, if our faith is real, we have to ask ourselves, what is it costing me?
Matt Brown:And if it's not, we we should we should be freaking out. Because, you know, right? What what did what did my salvation cost Jesus? His very life.
Wayne:Everything.
Matt Brown:He gave up everything. He released his spirit to God. He died a horrible death on the cross. Not only that, but Christ experienced, I believe hell Mhmm. Because God turned his back on him.
Matt Brown:So Yeah. For the first time in history, the triune God was separate. The father separated himself, the spirit separated himself from the son, and that was the most agonizing moment of the crucifixion. And because of that, because Christ has suffered for us, because Christ has died for us, we long to do this and love to do this. And so, you know, Luke nine twenty three, you know, if any man would come after me, let him deny himself, pick up his cross and follow me daily.
Matt Brown:You know, that's for the person who again, we don't need to preach this to people who don't know Jesus. This is not this is not, you know, he's speaking this to his followers, his disciples. These are people who who are following. He's saying, okay, so you wanna do this, then this is what this looks like. And that comes right right after Peter figures out you're the Christ, the son of the living God.
Matt Brown:And then right after that is the the transfiguration with Peter, James, and John. So that's a that's a deep moment. And we need to be careful that we don't expect new believers to fully understand that. This is something for mature believers to wrestle with. You know, what what is my role?
Matt Brown:How do I sacrifice? How do I how do I count the cost? And, you know, it's just like when we build a building, I don't expect our non Christians and our new believers to build it. I expect our mature believers to sacrifice, you know, I'm already a tither. Okay, Tammy, who's my wife?
Matt Brown:We're gonna we're gonna figure out what we can give over and above that. We gotta count the cost. Mhmm. And so for us, and so not only that, but then I send missionaries. So I I'm not going to go to India, you know, with with our 100 missionaries, but I'm going to, you know, finance those missionaries.
Matt Brown:My wife Yeah. And I already do. We finance, you know, the first three we sent. Mhmm. That's that's a part of of of what we what we feel like our calling is.
Matt Brown:And so what I would say is, what was this guy's name? Justin?
Stephanie Schaefer:Eric. Oh,
Matt Brown:Eric. Sorry. Okay. So Eric, this is what I would say is, is you need to pray with your small group. You need to look at your spiritual spiritual giftedness.
Matt Brown:And so you need to look at your gifting. How has God gifted you? So one of the major reasons that I know that I'm not called to foreign missions is I don't I don't learn languages quickly. You know, I took Spanish like a thousand times. Still can't speak Spanish.
Matt Brown:You know, I wrestle. I had to take Greek over and over again in seminary. I to take Hebrew over and over again. So language acquisition for me is very very difficult. If you cannot learn languages, you have no business going overseas.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Because the primary way the gospel is spread is through language and culture and understanding those things. So, I learned very very quickly that my role is to to be a supporter and a sender. And so, my role is to finance and to challenge those to to send, to be to go and and to help them, and challenge others to send them. And so, that's what I pray about.
Matt Brown:What is your giftedness? Are, you know, are you good with people? Do you make friends quickly? Can you share the gospel? Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Like, you can't share the gospel here, you certainly aren't gonna be able to do it there. And so, know, do you have the gift of evangelism? Do you wake up every day just wanting to tell somebody about Jesus? If you don't, don't go. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:I mean, why should the church expend all these resources, all this money if you're going to be a tourist for twenty or thirty years? And that's what a lot of missionaries are. A lot of missionaries around the world are tourists, and they're sucking up all these resources because they had a heart for missions, but they don't have the gift. Mhmm. And so that you have to ask yourself, do I have both?
Matt Brown:And so I have a heart for missions, but I don't
Wayne:have the gift. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so what I do is is I help to send people who have the heart and the gift. And so that's what I would say to Eric is, you know, what are your gifts? And again, if you can't share the gospel, tell if you can't, you know, tell people about Jesus and you have not seen yourself lead, you've not experienced yourself leading people to Jesus here in The United States, you won't do it there. It will not happen. Because the pressures on the mission field are so great.
Matt Brown:And I have seen incredibly strong Christians go on the mission field, and their weaknesses are instantly exposed.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so that's what I would say to anybody considering ministry. The weaknesses that you have when you step out in ministry will not be hidden by Christ, but they will be exposed. The the greater the leadership, the greater the greater the the challenge of what you're doing for Christ, the more you're gonna be exposed.
Wayne:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so so you you gotta you gotta deal with your weaknesses, you gotta deal and that's not to say that we we're gonna send perfect people, it's just that you've gotta deal with your stuff here. Yeah. Because it will be exposed there. So whatever problems you have as a couple here, you go to India, those things are gonna be magnified. The mission field magnifies our sins and our struggles.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Because the enemy Right. Doesn't want you there.
Justin Pardee:Totally.
Matt Brown:The gospel is already here. If you're going to a place where the gospel hasn't been spread, so you've got to deal with that stuff. So I would encourage him to ask other people. Here here's the mistake that we make in modern day ministry, is people come to me and say, I feel called. Well, I don't see that in the gospel.
Matt Brown:What I see in the gospel in the the gospels and in the book of acts, people saying you're called. Barnabas sees something in Paul. Mhmm. Jesus sees something in Paul. There's an affirmation, the church prays and agrees, you should be sent.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, the body of Christ needs to speak to this and say, I see this gift in this in you. I believe this in this, and I'm gonna support you in this. And so it's a little backwards nowadays. Totally.
Justin Pardee:Man, that's awesome.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. That was super helpful. Even for me as I'm like considering, you know, my role looks like, so
Justin Pardee:Totally. Yeah. I love that idea that even while you're here trying to figure these things out still really intentionally pursuing that Yeah. It's The Christ call is costing us something. So super super legit.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So here's here's a fun one. Luke chapter 10, Kimberly in Jeff's group. Well, define fun. Right?
Justin Pardee:Because who knows? The number 12 and its significance dates way back to the old testament and occurs 187 places in the word with revelation alone having 22 occurrences. Is there a spiritual significance to the number 12 relating to the power of God?
Matt Brown:Right. And so, you know, there's a whole study on numerology and people get all excited about numbers and you know, whether it's a I believe it's a 100 and Is it a 152 fish that Jesus catches in the great catch? I can't remember the number.
Justin Pardee:You're gonna say that's that's close.
Matt Brown:Yeah. It's close. 72 disciples, by the way, there's a textual variance. I didn't go over this in the the sermon because we don't have time. But some some of the some of the original manuscripts say 70, some say 72.
Matt Brown:It's it's it's a problem. Mhmm. And I I you know, I don't say it's a problem, but it's the the manuscripts don't exactly agree with the 70 or 72, and I would say it doesn't matter. He sent them out two by two or not to go alone. And so anybody that gets caught up in numerology, would just say be very very careful and stay away from that.
Matt Brown:You know, just like Satan's name in Revelation is six six six. Well, have to remember in Greek, numbers and letters are the same. So six six six is actually a name.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:So it's not just numbers, know, and he and he shall be six six six. It's it's a name. He has a name on him. And so it's probably an abbreviation for for a name. So those are letters.
Matt Brown:And so we just have to be very very careful, you know, with this whole idea of numerology and stay away from it. Know, numerologists are always predicting the next coming of Christ. And as far as I know, they're always wrong. Right? Right.
Matt Brown:I mean, they're like Right. Always they're always wrong. And so, you know, it doesn't matter whether you're the Mayans, right? 2012, remember that, Mhmm. Or you know, I can't remember that Christian organization.
Matt Brown:I think in 2010, the end of the world and they sold everything, and then he recalculated his numbers. So you you just gotta be really careful and and and just say, look man, end Jesus says no one knows the hour, only the father knows. So even Jesus doesn't know when it's gonna end. And so so what I would say, you know, is is there something spiritual about the number twelve? No.
Matt Brown:Do numbers sometimes mean something? Yeah. Absolutely. But, you know, don't worry about that. I know I was a little negative on that, but
Justin Pardee:Well, is well, and that's what what's the why behind don't worry about that? Is it so that you're just to not get caught up in that?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Because I I think people that get into numerology get weird and get cultic, and get bizarre. I've never seen somebody start studying numerology and come out a better person. I just I just haven't seen it. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:You know? They just tend to get weird. And you know, it's this whole idea of of like a hidden code in the bible. Why would God do that? He knows how dumb we are.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. He doesn't need to hide a code. Yeah. He needs to tell us exactly, you know, he needs to tell us exactly what he means. It's just like in a Greek for years and years and years people believe that the New Testament was written in the most beautiful form of Greek.
Matt Brown:And then we figured out it's not, it's in Koine Greek, which is the most common form of Greek. And and one of the best ways and the best tools to interpreting the bible was actually women's grocery lists from Alexandria. Right? Though those were some of the best interpretation tools. Because God's not an idiot.
Matt Brown:Right? Right. He knows we're the idiots. He knows he has to be the most clear, the most direct, and so I don't think God's going to hide a bunch of stuff in there. And so we just gotta be very very careful.
Matt Brown:That's my advice. I know I'm gonna just rile up a bunch of people and look, just focus on loving people and loving Christ and sharing Christ. Don't start studying numbers and and barcodes and all this stuff.
Justin Pardee:Got it.
Stephanie Schaefer:Alright. So moving on to Luke 10 now, I was noticing kind of reading through there when Jesus sends out the 72 or the 70. He directs them to enter a town and stay at one house, and then says that that town doesn't receive them, that town will face judgment worse than Sodom. And that seems pretty intense. It almost seems like he's telling them to place their judgment of the entire town on whether or not
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Stephanie Schaefer:You know, one house receives them. What if they like happen to just meet the town jerk, or what does he mean by that?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Well, there's a bunch of things here. So first off, you know, this is a great passage, you know, for those of you listening. Why do we support and pay our staff? Because Jesus is gonna say here, you know, the the worker is worthy of his work.
Matt Brown:And so we need to take care of. So I believe stay in one house is don't take advantage of people. Don't go from house to house looking for a better opportunity to bigger house, better food, whatever. Stay in one house. So so the church needs to take care of me and take care of me well, but I don't need to get wealthy.
Matt Brown:I think those are those are two different things. The church's responsibility is to take care of me well, and I my responsibility is to take care of our staff members well, but I don't need to be wealthy.
Wayne:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So so I think there's the big meaning there. But what he's saying is is we have people are gonna be held responsible for when they reject the gospel. And so I think your question is, you know, are there different level of of judgments? Absolutely. Because, you know, Sodom and Gomorrah didn't hear the gospel.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. They didn't hear the gospel. They they didn't have that chance to to repent from, you know, the teaching of Christ. And so, these towns are hearing the gospel, man. And not only are they hearing the gospel, they're seeing miracles.
Matt Brown:Yeah. They're seeing people be healed. They're seeing they're seeing demons be exercised. They're they're seeing thousands of people fed. Right?
Matt Brown:I mean, all the evidence is right there in front of you, and yet you're still rejecting Christ. And so and that's what I think Jesus is saying is, and he's trying to get their attention. He's saying, look. So Sodom and Gomorrah is, you know, the effective worst cities in the history of the world. Right?
Matt Brown:There's nobody worse because they were so bad that God sent fire from heaven and burned them. I mean, that's how bad it was. So what he's saying is, hey guys, in your self righteousness, you need to listen because it's gonna be better for those guys, because by the way, the day of judgment wasn't when fire came down. That's not the day of judgment. The day of judgment is still coming.
Matt Brown:He's saying, it's gonna be better for you guys because I'm standing here and you rejected me. You rejected my teachers. You've rejected the gospel. And, and that is that is a horrific sin, because we're rejecting God's God's offer of mercy. God's offer of forgiveness.
Matt Brown:And and you have to think about that. A lot of people have a problem with that, and it's because you haven't fully wrestled with what Christ went through to offer that forgiveness. And so that that's that's where people, you know, they get so offended. Well, how could how could God be so, you know, judgmental and and so angry? And and how how could a loving God have wrath?
Matt Brown:Because he sent his one and only son, and his son died a horrific, awful, ugly, terrible death for you Mhmm. And you reject it. And and that's why. So God's wrath is gonna be poured out on Jesus or on you. And, you know, I believe that, you know, judgment is personal, just like rewards.
Matt Brown:So, you know, is hell going to be the same for everyone? No. I I also believe that rewards won't be the same for everyone in heaven. We'll we'll all be in heaven or on the new earth when he creates a new earth, but it says very clearly that he's going to dispense rewards based upon faithfulness. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:You know? And like when pastor Wayne talked about those Chinese Christians this weekend.
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Matt Brown:You know, traveling twelve hours to go to church, sitting on, you know, an unconditioned, an air conditioned home on the floor for eight hours a day for three days. Right? God's gonna bless those people when we're like, oh, it's raining today, or I have to drive ten minutes, or you know, the pastor preached for forty minutes. Right? God's going to bless those Chinese believers in a unique way.
Matt Brown:He talked about the one who'd been in prison for nine years.
Justin Pardee:Great.
Matt Brown:For nine years because of his faith in Christ. Man, that guy deserves to be blessed Yes. In a unique way. He doesn't need to get the same reward as me. You know, I'm just gonna be glad just to be there.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. So and we need to think about that and going back to count the cost, you know, die die or pick up your cross daily. We need to remind ourselves of that, because the standard by which I'm not gonna be judged isn't my fellow American Christians. Mhmm. You know, that we talked earlier about the body of Christ.
Matt Brown:The body of Christ are people in China who are suffering and dying for the gospel. You know, right now, we're talking about sending out missionaries. A couple weeks ago, I'm sitting in a meeting with a missionary from Afghanistan, and he's telling me about how he went with a group of three and only two came back. Because one of his team members was shot in front of her hotel room. Like this isn't like, you know, fifty years ago, thirty years ago, like this is 2013.
Matt Brown:Yeah. 2013. They they picked up everything, they trained their church raised support, they went as a team, and only two of them came home. And he's telling me this story about how he then took the father and they went back to Afghanistan because the dad wanted to see where his daughter died. This happens.
Matt Brown:And what kind of reward does she deserve in heaven? Mhmm. I I don't know, better than mine. And I'm okay with that. And so I think that, you know, heaven, not all blessings are gonna be equal, and I think hell, not all of hell is going to be the same.
Matt Brown:I think, you know, there's gonna be a special place for Adolf Hitler. There is. And if there's not, you know, God is not who he said he was. And I think God is going to judge specifically, you know, Hitler in a unique way.
Justin Pardee:So Totally. Okay. Let's do one last question here from Luke chapter 10. And this one came in from Justin in the Debrief podcast. This is mine.
Justin Pardee:So in the middle of Luke chapter 10, Jesus has this cool little prayer, and in verse 22 he says this, my father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the son except the father and no one truly knows the father except the son and to those whom the son chooses to reveal him. Can you talk about does Jesus only choose to reveal the father to certain people, to some people?
Wayne:Right.
Matt Brown:Well, and so this I mean, is a, you know, this is a classic argument between Calvinism and Armenianism, does God choose or do we choose? And and so, and I think the truth is theologically somewhere in the middle. I think both God chooses and we choose, and somehow that works out together. But specifically in this context, you know, Jesus is speaking to his disciples. You know, he's very clear throughout the gospels, I have chosen you.
Matt Brown:So remember a couple weeks back, he had all kinds of disciples to choose the 12 from. Yeah. He prayed all night, and then he chose those 12. So, he's chosen them. But what he's saying is, is that he he has a unique ability to connect us with God.
Matt Brown:So, think about John fourteen three. I'm the truth, I'm the way. I'm the truth, the way, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me. So, what Jesus is proclaiming is that he is uniquely the connection to God.
Matt Brown:And so, one of the things that, you know, offended people so greatly about Jesus was how he called God dad. And people picked on up on it immediately. Wait a minute. When you call God your dad, you are making yourself equal with God. Absolutely.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Right? Just like my son, by definition is a human being, because I'm a human being. Jesus Christ, by definition, if his dad is God, what is Jesus? Jesus is divine.
Matt Brown:And so, Jesus is revealing to his disciples that there's something that I'm going to reveal to you about God that no one knows. No one knows God the way I do. No one knows. And that's why we have to be so dogmatic about Jesus Christ is the only way. Look, all kinds of religions are great.
Matt Brown:They do great things. They make people's lives better. You know, they give people meaning and purpose. Man, that's great. No one connects people to God in the way Jesus does.
Matt Brown:No one does. He is unique in that way. And so he's saying no one knows God like I do. So in John, we talked about this last week. It says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So we talked about that language of face to face. Jesus has always been face to face with God, and so he uniquely understands him, and he uniquely reveals him to us. And so, it's just it's just so absolutely important that we understand that we can only find God through Jesus. So now, the part of whom the son chooses to reveal him to, yeah, absolutely. He is only revealing God to a select group of people until the resurrection.
Matt Brown:And then he says what? Tell everyone. Mhmm. Reveal me to everyone. Reveal me to the nations.
Matt Brown:Reveal me to the world. Tell everyone about me. And so there there's a period of time where who he is has to be kept in secret, and it's it's a very very precious thing. But eventually, he's going to tell the whole world, and that's why the 72 disciples are sent out. So in in Matthew, Jesus sends out the 12 and says, only go to the Gentiles.
Matt Brown:Excuse me. Only go to the Jews. Yeah. Don't go to the Gentiles. In Luke, he says, go to the Gentiles.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. And so, I think Luke is prepping us for how this is going to change. It's going to go from, I'm only revealing myself, I'm only revealing God to those I whom I choose, to you are going to reveal me and God to the world. And so it's going to change. And that's why it's so absolutely important, because the world needs to hear about Jesus.
Matt Brown:Because he is the unique son of God, and by the way, he is the one by which every single human being will be judged on the day of judgment. I actually got a text this week, you know, when your sermon we talked about Vishnu, you know
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And this person was just all worried that that person was headed for hell, and they asked me, is that person gonna spend eternity in hell? And this is what I said is, I don't know whether or not that person will spend eternity in hell. This is what I know. The only way I know for sure that we won't spend eternity in hell is by placing our faith interest in Jesus Christ. That's the only guarantee.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. This is what I know, is that individual that you met and talked about will stand before Jesus, and Jesus will decide is he. Yeah. Because Jesus is the judge, and he has complete authority to do whatever he wants to do. And no one no one will complain.
Matt Brown:He will make whatever decision Jesus renders on the day of judgment for people, everyone will go, amen. Amen. I mean, it it will be so so righteous and so true. The world will have never seen judgments like this. I mean, imagine imagine a day and age when when a family, you know, a beloved son is accused of murder, and the judge renders a judgment sending them, sending that son, that beloved son to prison forever.
Matt Brown:And the family's like, that was a good decision.
Wayne:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Because it will it will all be presented. The truth will all come out. Every secret will be laid bare, and Christ's judgment will be right. And and no one will be, you know, I mean people that are sent ultimately, it says that there'll be a grinding of teeth. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:You know, they'll be they they won't agree with the rendering, but everyone else will be like, oh my gosh, that was such a great rendering. That was such a great judgment. Because Jesus Christ is the perfect judge.
Justin Pardee:Man, that's a good way of thinking about it. I love that analogy with with the family. That's a really good way to think about it. Yeah. Mhmm.
Justin Pardee:Good episode. Great stuff. Well, major thank you to everybody for sending in all these questions. It's seriously so much fun, getting the emails throughout the week and putting these together for Pastor Matt. And if you guys would do us a favor, if you are liking the Debrief Podcast at all, please do us a favor, jump over to iTunes.
Justin Pardee:It could probably just take you like two minutes. Leave us a fantastic review. Leave us a review of your choice of your choosing. My hope is that we would have earned a fantastic review in your heart.
Matt Brown:I'm gonna guess eventually we're gonna get a bad one, but
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Probably. Well, I mean, I thought we kind of already got a bad one when they talked about my
Matt Brown:Oh. Pauses. My pauses. You got a bad one. Me.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So I interviewed Wayne and I sat in your shoes and I realized how hard that is to be listening to the answer and thinking at the same time in the next question. So, I really appreciate what you do.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. You very much. You guys can't tell us on the podcast, but my cheeks just blushed a little bit.
Matt Brown:And he's
Stephanie Schaefer:he's little rosy.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Exactly. So, thanks for those thanks for those reviews. We seriously appreciate it. Do us favor.
Justin Pardee:Maybe tell somebody about the the podcast. Help them get subscribed as well. We're gonna try something new today, Pastor Matt. We're gonna close with your thoughts on an inspirational quote. So we're gonna give you inspirational quote and then you just you just give us your thoughts.
Justin Pardee:Are you ready for this?
Matt Brown:I'm so nervous.
Justin Pardee:Okay. Here you go. Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.
Matt Brown:I don't think that's actually correct. Because, right, the stars are way beyond the moon.
Stephanie Schaefer:Thank you. That's exactly what I was saying.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Science. I think, you know, talk to the numerology guy. They need to recalculate the math. So shoot for the stars and you might hit the moon.
Matt Brown:That's what I'd say. That's like the lamest inspirational quote ever.
Stephanie Schaefer:Sounds nice. But, yeah.
Matt Brown:Shoot for the moon and you might hit a star? Yeah. Know, even if you
Stephanie Schaefer:missed You've never heard that? You ever seen that like on a poster and in like the dentist office or something? Failure.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Wait. Like not even comparably closer. You could say shoot for Mars and you might hit the moon.
Stephanie Schaefer:I'm gonna start saying that.
Matt Brown:I'm sorry. Yeah. A lot of things that are inspirational don't make sense.
Justin Pardee:Alright. Send in your favorite inspirational quotes, guys. We love you halfway Somebody's
Matt Brown:crying
Stephanie Schaefer:shoot it down.
Justin Pardee:So Yeah.
Matt Brown:Exactly. Somebody has that painted over their child's bedroom. Like, oh
Justin Pardee:my gosh.
Matt Brown:Pastor Matt hates me.
Justin Pardee:Sorry. Love you guys. See you next week.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Love you. Bye.