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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: [00:00:00] Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds back at you Brands, Beats and Bytes podcasts. You know what it is, Larry, I need to start this one with a thank you to all of our listeners in more than 100 countries. We really appreciate you guys listening to Brands, Beats, and Bytes. Uh, you know, we wouldn't be doing this without you guys, so we're very appreciative, which leads me to something when we talk about different countries.
Um, I, uh, I'm a brand builder. Um, but I have not built any brands in my entire life without a partner right next to me. Who is this? These are the great, the great brands, the great projects. I've never been able to build one of those without a creative savant, next to me. And in these situations, [00:01:00] Brand Nerds.
It hasn't been a competition of, well, the brand person must lead, or the creative person must lead. It's always been a symbiotic kind of a relationship where I have respect for the creative chops. And by the way, brand nerds. I know you know this likely, but in case you didn't know creatives. Are as good as strategy as you brand folks think you are.
Okay. I know you, you try to put 'em in a box and say, oh, they're just, they, they're just creatives. They are as strategic as you are. And sometimes my, my chief creative officers out there, your brand folks can be as creative as you are. It go, it works both ways. This next guest, uh, LT is one of the most advanced creative savants I have ever worked with, and when he and I met one another, literally straight away, we had not [00:02:00] known each other before then I knew of him, but I, I hadn't worked with him before on any project.
Right away we hit it off like right. It was like being in a room and it wasn't that long. A couple comments go back and forth and I'm thinking, who's that dude over there? Who's that? And dare I say, uh, LT, I think he had a similar thing when he heard me talking and he and I were going back and forth. It was really interesting.
Now, back to, uh, my, my, my thing about origin stories, I'm gonna get into this a bit more, uh, later. I had the, um, life altering experience of coming home for the first time in my life in 1996. And home for me is the continent of Africa. I'd never been to Africa before. And I arrive in 1996 for you boys and girls that are counting.
That is two years after [00:03:00] the legal end of apartheid. So this is two years, and when my feet hit the ground, even before then, we're flying in and we're flying it to Cape Town. Brand Nerds, if you've never flown into Cape Town, you must do this. You must be near a window in an aircraft, and you must see this.
I'm looking Larry, as we're landing and I see luscious water, wonderful sandy beaches, lush greenery, all in one cinematic, sweeping view coming into Cape Town. When we land, I get off that plane when my feet hit the ground, I knew I was home. I knew I was home in, in South Africa, an overwhelming feeling. I'm going on a little longer here.
Uh, 'cause there's a connection to the South Africa piece that you're gonna hear about a little later. [00:04:00] Also, origin story, I'm walking down the street from one of the business meetings. We were having to go to lunch, I think it was. And, um, uh, during that time, I would have been described in South Africa as colored, not black, but colored because of my complexion.
I didn't know this by the way, until I, I got to South Africa. And, um, and so we're walking to lunch and then we, we get to lunch and I notice that the people I'm traveling, it's like five or six of us, they're kind of checking me out as, as, as we're walking to lunch, I can, I can tell they're kind of noticing something.
I don't know what they're noticing. Larry, we get to lunch and, uh, we're not even at the table yet and they say. No one from South Africa thought you were South African. Yeah. No one thought you were colored, even though you would be colored here. And I was like, why? Because I look like I'm colored, don't I?
They said no, because the way you were walking down the [00:05:00] street, they were like, this dude has to be from America. He's bumping into everybody. He's not like giving away. This is all the stuff that was going on, man. I, I had such a great time in South Africa. I'm, I'm, I'm arriving at a point, Larry. You know, my mom used to say this to me when I would drone on, she would say, uh, uh, baby, are you arriving at a point?
Yes. Yes. I would say yes. My mom arriving at a point. I'm arriving at a point. Um, our next guest not only understands commerce, he understands culture. He understands soul. Brand nerds. When you have an executive that understands both the value of commerce and culture, you are dealing with a beast that can do things that other people simply cannot do.
Lt, let the peoples know who we have in the building with us [00:06:00] today. Please.
LT: Uh, DC That's such a great setup. We have Noel Cottrell in the house today. Welcome, Noel.
Noel Cottrell: Well, thanks so much, uh, DC Thank you for the flowers. And Larry, thank you for having me.
LT: Well, we're thrilled to have you and, and, uh, Noel, uh, I know you've talked to, to us about having listened to the show, so you're gonna, you know, what's coming next, and we have to let the Brand Nerds, as we say, who's know who's in the building.
So, okay. Brand Nerds, we have someone who is a legit, creative giant in our industry, both domestically and internationally, having successfully started and sold creative agencies. Let's walk you through his backstory, and this is what DC was alluding to, A native of South Africa. Noel attends the University of Cape Town earning a BA in English and Psychology after graduation.
Noel is in London and there is a great story behind Noel obtaining an unpaid internship with Saatchi and Saatchi in London. So I, I hope that [00:07:00] comes out later, Noel. But while we believe folks should be paid for work, we also believe sometimes is just about getting your foot in the door. This is what happens with Noel after Saachi.
He then heads back to South Africa and takes a real job as a copywriter with Tholet Sievers & Associates, where he cuts his teeth on brands such as Goodyear, John Deere, and Smirnoff. He then earns an opportunity to join the Jupiter drawing room, as a senior copywriter working on brands such as Red Bull, Sissy Boy Jeans, oh, I, I love this, the, the brand name of that and Musica Retail Music Stores.
At this point, Nola's figured out as a creative person, he really has something to offer for clients and he opens his own shop called Joe Public United, where they are a full service communications agency and blow up the agency model completely opening as a sort of a takeaway corner store where you could order advertising off a menu.
And they work with clients such as SA Breweries, USAID, and Siemens. Okay. It is now [00:08:00] 2001 and this is the first time an agency Noel starts is purchased by holding company, and Noel then becomes managing partner and chief creative officer for KBS, where he works with clients such as Cisco Systems, my team, the San Francisco Giants and Diageo. Feels like Noel at his heart, wants to do great creative and he then heads back to South Africa where he starts another agency.
Fox P like Peter two, Foxp2. The agency is named after the the creativity gene in humans and is originally housed in a lab. Clients include Diageo, Coronation, a Asset Management and Wonderbra. It is now 2005 and Noel sells the agency to Dentsu and moves back to the US joining Gray Advertising as their executive creative director working on key accounts such as Diageo, P&G, and e-Trade.
A couple of key points to make here Brand Nerds, number one, not sure if you picked up on it, but this is the third agency Diageo followed Noel to When clients obtain great work from a [00:09:00] creative leader, they trust, and this is what DC was alluding to, if they can, and sometimes politics, internal, external won't allow it, but if they can, they follow great creatives like Noel, wherever they go.
Point number two, for E-Trade, Noel and his team develop and produce the most, the most, talked about one of the most talked about Super Bowl ads of all time, dare I say. But certainly in 2008. With the talking babies, that is an uber success. Here's what we mean by success. On the Monday following the Super Bowl E-Trade recorded more new account signups than any other single day in its history, and also had a 32% increase in newly opened and funded accounts in the, in the week after the game.
After the success at, at Gray, Noel joins Fitzgerald and CU and CO as their chief creative officer, where he spent nine years, spends nine years working with many prominent clients, including our friends at Coca-Cola Turner Broadcasting and Sony Mobile to name a few. He then moves on to VM [00:10:00] LYNR as their chief creative officer.
V-M-L-Y-N-R is a combination of global creative powers, wonder and Thom Thompson and YNR back in the day known as Young, Young and Rubic Camp. Key clients there include Wendy's, North Face, and Intel. Okay. Noel's entrepreneurial is ever present and in 2023 he decides to upend the agency model once again and he founds Murder Hornet, which is an advertising collective that swarms on client brands.
Why Murder Hornet? Well, if discomfort is a catalyst for change, they build bespoke teams to swarm on solving problems. They call it creative violence. Discomfort means better work, more impact, and greater results comprised of a nest of full-time staff and a much larger swarm of partners. They're the creative agency for Fortune 100 Company, New York Life, Tazo and Lipton Teas and Nandos Perry Perry Chicken in the US just to name a few.
They like to say Creative violence solves everything and has led [00:11:00] them to be the adage Small Agency of the year in 2025. This is gonna be a great one. Brand Nerds. Welcome to Brands, Beats and Bytes, Noel Cottrell.
Noel Cottrell: Thanks so much, Larry. It's, uh, the longer you went down the board, it's like, God damn, I'm old.
It's like, I've been around for a minute. Oh my gosh. It's, uh, that's a, that's a lot. Uh, the amount of pride I felt in everything you're naming there is equally, uh, equally sort of like shaking my head how long I've been doing this for. But, but I think if you got it, you know, if, if, you know, if it bites you, like I know with DC it did back in the day, like, I don't know if it ever really leaves you, you know, you're kind of like, people have said to me like, if you thought of retiring, I'm like, I would like to never retire. I'd like to do this till, you know, till they shuffle me off. The sort of like, I love doing what I do.
LT: That's great.
DC: Uh, it's funny you mention that, brother, because I was looking at, uh, success and um, how it's defined in terms of [00:12:00] numbers. I won't have this exactly right. But the, some of the greats, uh, Old Blue Eyes, Frank Sinatra, who was considered to be one of the most iconic entertainers who have ever lived of his entire catalog of songs, 17% of them were hits. 17%.
Noel Cottrell: Yeah.
DC: The Great Bambino. So we're talking about baseball royalty right here. New New York. Uh, New York Yankees, I know Boston and all that. But the New York time, he had 714 home runs before Henry Hammering Hank Aaron broke his record. The percentage of his total hits that were home runs were in the single digits, single digits.
The point here, Noel, that I'm agreeing with you here, is that you don't have to do a [00:13:00] thousand great things. You just have to do a few great things and they stay with you forever, brother. And this is what you get in your flowers here. Now you've done a lot of great things, but this is how one establishes a resume like yours, man.
So congratulations on those flowers. Uh,
Noel Cottrell: Thank you. Thank you.
DC: You're welcome, Brand Nerds, a couple things popped out that I gotta bring you, uh, back to in the flowers that Noel got before we get to the get comfy section. The first one is this. If y'all have never tried Nando's Perri Perri Chicken, you are cheating yourself outta one of life's great joys.
I've not been to Nandos here in the us but haven't I've been to several Nandos Yeah. In, uh, in South Africa and the first time that I had man and
LT: in the UK too.
DC: Yeah, in, in the UK. In, in the UK. But I tried it in South Africa. Thank you, Larry. [00:14:00] That shit was so good. I was ready to slap somebody. I mean, I just could not believe how good this chicken was.
And then speaking of the uk, uh, I've had Nandos in the uk, but there's another kinda smaller, big now, but high quality chicken, uh, uh, places called The Chicken Shop. The Chicken Shop in, uh, in London. Equally good. Well, not equally good. Kind of almost there. More smoke, but Nando's Perri Perri Chicken, you guys need to try that.
Where, wherever it is. But I digress. I digress. I'm going to the get comfy section before I ask this question to you, Noel. Um, I said earlier like, origin stories. I also really appreciate the rhythm of the universe. So I, I gave the origin story of how Noel and I met. Now let me get to the rhythm of the universe.
Unbeknownst to Noel or I. Both of, [00:15:00] both of us had daughters that were at SCAD, Savannah College of Art and Design School, Atlanta, uh, campus. I didn't know he had a daughter there. She's called Sasha. He didn't know I had a daughter there. She's called Lauren. So we find out that our daughters are in the same school and I think the same majors, right?
Not only that we find out they're besties. Okay, they're besties. We had no idea that this was happening. But it kinda shows the rhythm of the universe and the origin of, uh, of our relationship, and then the origin of both Sasha and Lauren's relationship. But I wanna go to another part of an origin story.
I didn't know anything about brand management until business partner and best friend Jeff Shirley. Called me from business school. No, and said, Hey man, [00:16:00] I just heard about this thing called brand management. You need to get your ass in the school and start working on brand management. I didn't know what it was. That's how I got into brand management. But I think your origin story is a little better about how you got into advertising. No, please share. Please share.
Noel Cottrell: Thank you. Thanks DC. Yeah, mine, mine was pretty weird. I, uh, I had an English and psychology degree, as Larry had mentioned, and I was working in London, but I had like 16 jobs.
I was playing semi-professional basketball. I was bouncing at the Hippodrome and the Empire nightclubs. I was like working as a lifeguard. I was a, like working for the Big Pan Catering Company at the Earls Cork Motor Show. I was like, I had 20 jobs and I was just hustling. Mm-hmm. Um, but I'd met a, I'd met a, a woman, uh, who was, who became my girlfriend, who was an au pair for the Saatchis.
And I didn't, I'd never even heard of advertising. And when we decided, uh, to go back to South Africa, she was like, they really wanna meet you. [00:17:00] I've obviously spoken you up and everything. So they invited me for dinner and I got to go sit there. And, um, it took the, kind of the f the, the kind of the story that's a bit fuzzy, so I don't remember which brother it was or exactly how that worked, but they, but they were like, uh, the girl's name was Angela.
And she said to me, she said, you know. You know, Noel's got an English and psychology degree and they were like, oh, you know, what are you apparently, what are you doing with it? Have you ever thought of being a copywriter? And I was like, well, I don't have any legal background. You know, thinking like copywriting was something that you did, you know, legal work.
Jade: Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Noel Cottrell: And so they were like, well, we own an agency called Saatchi and Saatchi in London. And they were like, if you want to just come and like walk around and sit in there and see what it's about. So the next day I went in and. Um, I walked in and it was almost an immediately, like a love story.
I walked in and the one office had been painted green and they were doing work for the pen tennis balls account. And there were two, two 30-year-old kids in there, like, with like, like hitting a tennis ball against the wall, like dressed up in tennis gear. And then they were like, Hey, it's almost [00:18:00] lunchtime, you wanna come with us?
And they, we hopped in a Porsche and went to the local like steakhouse and had a steak. And by the time I got back I was like, I'm definitely doing this job. Whatever this, whatever this is, whatever this is, I'm doing this. Uh, so I kind of like. The, the other fun part was I was there illegally, working illegally as pretty much most people did.
Uh, a lot of South Africans traveling to the UK at the time. Um, and what was interesting was, so I worked there for like a month and a half and they kept asking me for my equivalent to my social security number. I just kept telling 'em like, oh, I left it at home. I'll get it next time. I'll get it next time.
And by the time I left, I had like two, two ads in my book and I went back to South Africa and I was like, I worked with Saatchi and Saatchi and here's my ads. And I was like, they were kind of spec ads. But anyway, it was just like, kind of falling into it, you know, A lot of fun.
LT: I love that story. Um, so do you mind if I ask a follow up?
DC: Please, brother.
LT: Um, so Noel, when, so you had all these odd jobs, you're bouncing, you're playing basketball, you're doing all these things. [00:19:00] So were you, at the time you, you were you thinking, man, what am I gonna do with my life? Or are you just living life and things are just, you know, you'll, you're, you're gonna catch whatever wave you're gonna be on.
Noel Cottrell: I think it was the latter, really. I, I didn't have many plans. I was just having a lot of fun and making pounds as opposed to rans, which is like a, I think it was a 20 to one at the time. I was like stacking, stacking pounds and just having a good time. So, um, and, and you know, I think I was in my early twenties, so just kind of, I always say to Sasha and Lauren, you know, who always like really, um, keen, my daughters are keen to get on with their careers and are worried about their careers.
I'm like, you got a few years, you know, just, um, yeah, have some fun. Have some fun early.
DC: Yeah. Uh, Brand Nerds, uh, we all know the agency Saatchi now, uh, and we've known them to be a great agency, uh, for decades. But when, when no heard [00:20:00] about them, they were big then, but they weren't as big as they ultimately be, uh, became.
In the us uh, context, it would be as if 30 some odd years ago, uh, 40 years ago, whatever the, the count is, if someone were an au pair to Ogilvy, David Ogilvy and they say, go and talk to Ogilvy. They, they, Ogilvy wants to meet you. It's, it'd be like that. Okay.
Noel Cottrell: That was crazy.
DC: Yeah. That is like nuts.
LT: It is.
DC: That's nuts. No. So, uh, so no. When after you got in and they're like, yeah, come on and do, after you had your steak and your, I would imagine martini, but if you're in the uk it might have been a pint. I'm not sure, but, uh, either one. Either one does. When you had your first understanding of what a copywriter did, what was that moment for you?
Noel Cottrell: [00:21:00] I mean, honestly, like the guys would took me back to the office after a few pints. You're correct. Uh, and they were showing me kind of some of the ads they were working on that they had stuck up on the wall. And I was like, oh my gosh, I had no idea this, this entire industry even existed. Yeah. Um, and I, I always had had a flare for writing.
I'd done really well in English, um, in college. And I also, to your point earlier, DC kind of had a, had like a bit of a, I could, I could put stuff together. You know, it wasn't just a couldn't, it wasn't just a writer. I kind of had a bit more, a bit more to it. So when I saw that it was like Commerce plus.
Like English language. I was like, Hey, this could be really great. So, uh, it, it really bit me. And, and even, you know, they'd gimme briefs. I'd go in, they'd gimme briefs, um, and I would work on 'em and I'd come up with ads and I'd scroll up little ads and go to the photocopy machine and cut out things and create things.
And, uh, you know, this is, this is way before computers, which is, which was really dead me. So it's like, you know, like, kind of like, and I had a little book. By the time I got back to South Africa, I had a little [00:22:00] like. A little case that I carried around with my favorite ads I'd done at Saatchi. And uh, so, you know, it just kind of, but I really got hooked.
I really got hooked by, and as someone had played semi well competitive sport, um, it was pretty much as close as I could come to sport as well. It was that feeling of like, that feeling of competition, that feeling of like winning that feeling of like doing something. There was definitely, it felt like an, it was analogous to like playing competitive sport.
You know, you're in a team and you're working as a team and you're trying to, you're pitching and winning or losing. And, uh, it was definitely like, I definitely got a little bit of, a little bit of that, the, the buzz that I got from playing sport. I got a little bit of a buzz from, I got the same buzz from advertising and I still do.
LT: And it's interesting too, Dee, what he's done with, uh, with his most recent incarnation, uh, Murder Hornet, because that's bringing people together, like all kinds of different people, the swarms, right. And so you can see, [00:23:00] uh, the, the true line from, uh, from playing sports I did too, Noel. And it's the, there, there's something about, uh, being on a team and, uh, and, and get coming together and, and succeeding as a team that's, uh, sort of incomparable in life.
Noel Cottrell: Yeah, absolutely.
DC: That is well said, Noel, about the correlation of what you do and what we do largely in our business, but especially on the side of, uh, agencies and firms and consulting practices, but also on the client side, the correlation to sport. That's really good.
Noel Cottrell: It is. Yeah.
DC: That, that, that's, uh, that's, that's really good.
It reminds me of, uh, a quote. I don't have this quote down exactly, but I'll try to come close and paraphrase it. That speaks to what you recognized in the moment when you were at Saatchi and Saatchi, and the quote goes [00:24:00] something like this. It's one thing to have an opportunity presented to you. It's another thing to recognize that that opportunity is happening and you better do something with it.
That's not the exact quote, but that's what you did. Yeah. You, from the moment you saw that green wall, them hitting balls up against the wall in their, in their, uh, Wimble Wimbledon gear. Once they had all of that on and they, and you saw that, that, I'm gonna imagine it was a 9-11 Porsche, probably a 9-11.
You see this 9-11 Porsche. And, uh, we're talking what, what, what year was this? I, I don't want to date you, but what year was this?
Noel Cottrell: It was the nineties, so I, I couldn't put it on an exact year, but it was, uh, it was a beautiful time to be in advertising.
DC: Okay. So, so now just brand, there's one other thing, then we'll move on.
In the nineties, well back up a second. There are [00:25:00] car companies that are known for the name brand of their car company like Ferrari or Bentley or Bugatti, and, uh, Porsche's, one of them, Mercedes. And then there are cars that have a, a model that is on its own, a 9-11. Porsche 9-11 is such a model. You could go around the world and draw with a pen, the shape of a 9-11 and ask someone, what car is this?
They would say, this is a Porsche. They just from, there's no other car in the world where you can do that. Within the world of Porsche and nine elevens, there are variants, so these are the different types of Porsches that they make. Throughout the years, when Noel was hopping in the car, he might have been in what's called a 993.
They made this car from 1994, but a 95 model to 1998. It is considered to be [00:26:00] peak Porsche, one of the most beautiful cars ever made. So this dude is getting, as a 20 something year old is getting into one of those cars. Oh, oh boy. I recognize this opportunity. I'm taking advantage of it. That's nice. I
Noel Cottrell: remember, I remember it was chocolate brown.
That's all I remember about it. Like the exterior was like chocolate brown. I was like, this is like, I've never even seen a brown car before. I was like, this is, this is ridiculous.
DC: Ooh. Ooh. Alright, we will move on to five questions and Larry and I go back and forth. No. Until we arrive at five. I'm up. First I'm curious about Larry, his answer to this question.
I'm very curious about it. Mm-hmm. Noel, what was the first experience you had with a brand? That lit your soul a fire that you just could not spend enough time with it. You, you couldn't like covet it more. [00:27:00] You, you thought you were engaged with it maybe for 15 minutes and you were engaged with it for an hour or had it on for an hour.
It just brought you so much joy, so much joy, like a first love. What was that for you?
Noel Cottrell: It's kind of interesting 'cause Larry had mentioned Sissy Boy Jeans, um, upfront when he was, when he was going through my resume, um, Sissy Boy Jeans was the first time I worked on a brand that I felt like that. So I've kind of, I, I joined the Jupiter drawing room after about three successful years at, um, my first job.
So Jupiter drawing room was my second job and I had two great mentors there, Ross Charles, Kevin, uh, who passed, but like great mentors and they put me with a killer art director designer. Her name was Joanne Thomas. And they gave us this brand Sissy Boy Jeans, which was a female only Jean. So as a six foot eight, 300 pound guy, you can imagine this is a weird first jean to fall or first brand to fall in love with.
But [00:28:00] the brand, uh, had this amazing guy called Ronald Sasoon as the, uh, the owner of the brand and the CMO and he was the bravest guy you will ever meet. Um, and so. And actually I might be getting his name wrong, 'cause Ronald Sasoon was the brand, was the, uh, anyway, I, I might be getting his name wrong, but, um, the, the owner of the brand who started it, um.
He was incredible because he gave us literally as much rope as he wanted. So we came up with a tagline for a woman's pair of jeans called, and the tagline was, Sissy Boy Jeans wear the pants. Um, and they were, and then, and then what we say that again?
LT: Say that again. That's so good.
Noel Cottrell: Sissy Boy, jeans wear the pants.
Um, and the first ad we did for them, which I did for them, um, with my partner Joanne, was we did. All the Karma Sutra positions as a double page spread, uh, where the woman was on top. Um, and then it was Sissy Boy Jeans wear the pants. [00:29:00] And obviously that caused a huge stir, the double page spread in Cosmo Cosmopolitan Magazine.
Oh yeah. And then, you know, then when that took off and we got so much press for it, there was so much, like, there was so much buzz around it that we were like, all right, look, what do we do next? And so we landed up doing something. Uh, there was a huge, um, drug problem in South Africa. We did a, like, we did a sort of a woman's take on that.
And then most famously in our, in my third year there, we South Africa. And again, these are all weird things about South Africa. One of the weird things about South Africa was pornography was banned in South Africa, so you were not allowed to have any pornography. Um, and then when they unbound pornography, um, in South Africa that year, all these um, all these women's magazines flooded the country.
All the external, you know, the playboys and the, not the fact that I can't name any others is probably good. Um, but there, there were a whole bunch of them flooded the country and at Sissy Boy Jeans, we kind of had this moment where we realized [00:30:00] that woman had no, there was no pornography for woman. So we shot a four page foldout of a guy, naked.
Um, and said, you know. There are currently 250 like pornography magazines that have just launched in this country. None of 'em are for woman. And you open it up and there was a fully naked guy, uh, and it said like, um, and it was just like, Sissy Boy, Wear the Pants. And what we didn't reckon with was that they ripped all those magazines off the shelves because it was a four page fallout in Cosmopolitan.
And the pornography magazines had to be wrapped in plastic. So they ripped all
DC: Oh, yeah.
Noel Cottrell: Yeah. They had to rip all the magazines off the shelves. And we got, we had bomb threats. We literally came to work one day and there was like spray paint in the elevator saying like, today's the day you all die. Um, and like, you know, from very conservative things.
And so it was kind of interesting. I saw, I talked today about creative violence at Murder Hornet. Like that was the first time where I saw the real impact that [00:31:00] creative violence can have. Like where you go, all right, it's a brand and we're gonna. We're gonna do some crazy stuff. We've got a client who's willing to go there.
Um, it's a fashion brand, so, you know, it's also not like, you know, how bad can you, can you make it? Uh, and we, and I think also just the fact that we were a pro woman and we were calling out like, like pro woman stuff, really like kind of, I, I will say that I've been married for 27 years. My wife would, would argue that this is not the reason she married me, but she married me.
The, she, her and I met the year that, um, I was doing the Sissy boy jeans, like Centerfold ad. And I met her in a club and she said, what do you do? And I said, I'm a creative person. She says, is there any ad I've ever seen that you've done? And I said, the Sissy Boy naked guy. And she was like, and literally she.
She came, like we went, we went kind of, we went out on a date that night, and then we've been together for 27 years. I attribute that ad to
DC: Oh wow.
Noel Cottrell: Like to my, that's [00:32:00] hilarious relationship and having built a family with two girls. So it's like kind of that, that brand is still like front and center in my heart.
Like such a, such a huge part of my life, you know?
LT: Noel, don't doubt yourself. I just looked it up. Ronald Sassoon was the founder of,
Noel Cottrell: oh my gosh,
LT: Sissy Boy. So I just looked that up, um, according to my Google search, and I think maybe where you got caught up, there used to be a brand back in the day called Sassoon.
Noel Cottrell: So that's why I was so the foot to myself the same thing.
LT: Same, same, you know, spelled the same, but No, that's, that was Ronald Sassoon in, uh, in the eighties, um, in South Africa. Yeah. So you, you were right.
Noel Cottrell: Yeah. And actually I recently a friend of mine. Uh, who was Myre director at the time is now lecturing at, um, Michigan State.
He's a lecturer. He lectures marketing there. And he was my, the, my Chief Creative Officer at the time when we did that work. And he actually asked me to send him the ads the other day and I sent them to him. Um, and actually the drum asked me recently for the [00:33:00] five most important ads I'd ever done, and I sent them the Sissy Boy Naked Centerfold ad.
Uh, so it's still floating around in the ether.
LT: You know what, for all the reasons you just stated, it is, it's probably, it should be number one, even with your great success, uh,
Noel Cottrell: It is.
LT: You know, with E-Trade and whatnot, so, yeah. That's awesome.
DC: I got a question for you, Noel.
Noel Cottrell: Yeah.
DC: The centerfold ad that came after the Karma Sutra, so Yes, you did, you did the Karma Sutra first.
So this is the first time that you all are sharing. Your thoughts with, uh, Robert? Uh, is it Robert Sso? Robert or Ronald? Ronald,
Noel Cottrell: Yeah.
DC: Ronald. Ronald. Ronald Sassoon. Alright. What's that meeting like? You're coming in here with something that's like, it's kinda out there. No. What's that first meeting like with him and his team?
Noel Cottrell: I will tell you that he was the bravest client I've met [00:34:00] before and after the brief was like, the brief was like shock and awe. Like just do something that's gonna really, oh, okay. Put this tiny brand on the map. And, you know, we presented a lot of work and he was, he was all about it. He was like, get me banned, get me thrown off the shelves, get me like, uh, that was, uh, that was, uh, a lot of fun, you know, having a, that open a brief earlier in your career?
DC: Rare. Yes.
LT: Very.
DC: Yeah. Rare. Cool. Larry, any more from you before the next question?
LT: Nope. Ready to go to the next question. Okay. Uh, you alluded to it, but let's go direct with this question. Uh, Noel, who's had or is having the most influence on your career?
Noel Cottrell: She's gonna be embarrassed 'cause she's sitting in the office here and I'm gonna have to, uh, um, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to pull her over to say hello for a second.
DC: Pull her over. Bring her over.
Noel Cottrell: Come on over. Just come. She's not her. She's not gonna have, she's not gonna have sound, so she's just gonna come on. That's great. She's just gonna come put her head in. This is Alex, my partner and the President of [00:35:00] Murder Hornet. Um, and you know, the, the question I, I thought about it last night 'cause I asked was like, who's the person who's currently having the most impact on your career?
And it's Alex. Um, I started an agency at the tender age of 56, 57 and was looking for someone to help me on the account management side and Alex came over and we started Murder Hornet, just the two of us in a little two person area. And, um, just watching her like grow insanely from, you know, sort of a senior account person at Tombros to joining me to helping land all these giant accounts and do what we're doing with Murder Hornet and growing it the way we've grown it and.
Everything. Um, it's funny, I, I dunno what I'm more proud of, uh, like our accomplishment of being ad agents of small agents of the year last year, or Alex being on the Forbes 30 under 30, um, this year, which is a huge accomplishment for someone. She actually turned 30 at the same time. Um, I think it's [00:36:00] really good and it's been energizing for me, you know, like kind of.
When you get to, you get to the back nine of your career, as they say in golf, um, it's sort of like you think to yourself like, no, there's, there's a comfort in sort of choosing other people who look like you or feel like you or you know, are like you, um, to, to do your work with together. But there was definitely something about, about Alex that made me think like, you know, this could be, this could be something bigger and different and I could build something with her for the future.
And, and even now, like looking forward to the future of the agency, the hires we are making and the people we're building and, and that are so, like we're building it for the future, you know, and we're building the systems for the future. And it's not like my last hurrah. It feels like it's her first hurrah.
So it feels there's something really great about that, um, that synergy and also very, I mean, I know it's supposed to be like this, but my strengths are her weaknesses and her weaknesses are my strengths. That sounded wrong. I think I screwed that up. But anyway, she has strengths that I don't have and I have strengths that she doesn't have, and it works really well together.
And you know, [00:37:00] she's, you know, we do things like, uh, we have onboarding documents and we have, you know, we, like for an agency of 10 or 12 people, we are very organized. So I, I would say that, you know, there's, sure, there've been people throughout my career to Myron at, uh, at Gray, who went on to be the CMO of Apple, still is the CMO of Apple.
Like, you know, he was one of the guys that, I mean, he did the original E-Trade work, you know, we did it. He, he was the CCO at the time. And I've got a lot of like great people who've influenced my career. But I would say like someone right now who's influencing my career the most is, is Alex. Sorry, Alex.
LT: I love that.
Alex. Alex McInnis, right? Alex last name?
Noel Cottrell: Yeah. Yeah.
LT: Yep. Okay. D, I love this because so often, and it just shows Noel's way of thinking, and you just alluded to it, you've had great mentors, you've had great folks who have helped you along the way. And I love the present future orientation of, of you saying Alex.
Um, and it just shows what you guys are doing [00:38:00] with Murder Hornet and all the wonderful things that you have right now, present and then coming. So I I, it's such We've never had an answer like that, Dee. I can't remember an answer like that, right?
Noel Cottrell: Yeah.
DC: Never.
Noel Cottrell: Glad it feels original,
LT: For sure.
DC: Larry, we have invoked this many times.
We're gonna invoke it again. Who's that world famous basketball coach? UCLA Rest in peace. What, what's his name and what's the quote?
LT: Mr. John Wooden. We can't say it's enough. Uh, Noel, we love this quote. It's what you learn after you know it, all that counts.
Noel Cottrell: Oh, I love that. That's great.
DC: That's you Noel. Um,
Noel Cottrell: oh, thank you.
DC: Yeah. What, what you have now built with Alex is you saying. Alex, I've been in the game for a while and you, you said that listening to your experience being played back to you, [00:39:00] yet at the same time, I've got a lot more to learn.
LT: Yes.
DC: And you can teach me and from a completely different perspective, they're, there are not many know that would do that.
They would go, let me tell you youngin, how it should be. Yeah. That's not what you've done. That's impressive, man. That's impressive.
Noel Cottrell: No. Oh, thank you. So she's impressive. So it's great.
DC: Cool.
LT: Alright D Ready to go to the next question?
DC: I am. You have a long and storied background. You have many successes, much to be proud of, much that you've done to actually change our industry.
This next question has not a thing to do with any one of those, uh, wins. This next question no. Has to do with the largest fuckup, the largest F up you've experienced [00:40:00] in your career. Not one that you could point to someone else. Ah, my boss made us do this. The client made it. It's your f up. And more important than naming the F up, what did you learn from it?
Noel Cottrell: Uh, this is gonna be an emotional one because it, um, involves a, a once great friend of mine, uh, his name's, uh, Dave Fitzgerald, uh, DC You might
DC: Ah, yeah. Yep.
Noel Cottrell: Know Dave Fitzgerald. Uh, the founder of the agency, Fitzgerald and Company in Atlanta. And, um, Dave took a chance on me as a young hot copywriter, ECD copywriter coming out of New York, having just done like some famous work for E-Trade and Fabreeze and, you know, kind of.
He took a chance at me to come down and be a CCO and welcomed me with open arms. I can't tell you when I arrived, I came up the elevator. There was a sign that said, welcome home and all. And he made me feel at home every day. And he gave me as much rope as I needed [00:41:00] to turn that into a great agency creative like I could.
I hired the best people he allowed me to do, to get rid of the people, even though they'd been with him for 20 years that maybe weren't right. Um, and hire the people I wanted to hire. He gave me carte blanche of the clients, gave me carte blanche of the work. He sponsored everything he was, he could not have been better, could not have been a better, um, partner, boss, whatever you want to call it to me.
Um, and then there was a really sort of, he was. He was kind of in the twilight of his career, probably a little older than me than I am now. Um, and we had some real success with Coca-Cola and we grew that from a tiny account to be a very big account. And suddenly McCann Erickson at the time, McCann now got very, very, very involved with the day-to-day running of the, of everything because they saw the traction that we had on Coca-Cola.
So they came down one day, and this is my biggest mistake of my life, is they said that they were gonna swap Dave out, um, as president and [00:42:00] owner and CEO of the company. And they were gonna install a sort of a Coke team that were gonna run the agency because we kind of like Coke head, head office. This has nothing to do with an amazing guy that they brought to put in Dave's place.
But the trust and everything I built with Dave, the relationship I had with him and his family and spending time at his lake house and doing all that stuff. I didn't feel I had a choice in that moment to say yes to McCann. I couldn't say no to them. They were doing this, um, and they, uh, they kind of made Dave the sort of, they, they made him a sort of like, almost like president, what's the word?
DC: Emer
Noel Cottrell: Emeritus where you kind of, you stand up and you present the Davy Award once a month. Um, and the rest of the time you get to not have any involvement in the agency you built for 30 years. And I was part of that, and I was complicit in that. And, uh, for a couple of years it worked for me and it worked for Coke and it worked for [00:43:00] McCann.
And then as the cycle of advertising goes, it's didn't anymore for McCann. And, you know, uh, we lost a big account. It wasn't Coke, it was another big account, uh, maybe Federal Credit Union. And then they decided that they were gonna, that they could buy the agency back. And Dave brought the agency back from them and some, or early, um, as he should got rid of all the people that had deposed him.
Oh, yeah. Five years earlier. And Oh, yeah. I was on that list of people that went, and I have not spoken to Dave since then, and I wanted to take this opportunity to apologize to him. Oh. And say, I couldn't be sorry. I really am.
Uh, yeah, I have reached out once or twice to go for a steak at Bones, but it hasn't happened. But I want it, I wanna, I wanna apologize in person.
DC: Um, Larry, you have thoughts? I have [00:44:00] thoughts.
LT: Please go first.
DC: We are approaching 200 of Brands Beats and Bytes podcast. And this might be the best answer that I've heard to this question.
I have a history with, uh, with Dave. I met Dave in 2000, I think. I, uh, had, I was running all of, um, advertising for North America National and Regional. The person that worked for me that worked with Dave and Fitzgerald was Becky Rodzic. Becky Rodzic, really good Coca-Cola person. So I met, and at this time our, our regional and local work most done with the Butler was led by, [00:45:00] uh, Fitzgerald.
I, uh, I witnessed the firm go from that to one of the major players on the roster for the Coca-Cola company and on the roster for others. He is a good man, you know that? Yeah. He is a really good man and what I found him to be unique at is, uh, I don't know where this, this way now, but I can tell you is this way then.
Coca-Cola had perhaps the most accomplished roster of agencies in the world back then. Uh, back then. It was a political Viper's nest. Literally. Dave never played those games. He never ever played those games. I'm saying all this to say, uh, the following, um, Dave and I are not [00:46:00] friends, but we know one another.
And what I'm going to do, Noel, is I'm going to call him and personally ask him to listen to this podcast. And then I'm gonna say to him, uh, I want to talk to you after you listen to the podcast. And I'm going to say to him, I'll say it to him now in case, Dave, it's been a minute. You know, it's been a minute, brother, and you know, we've done a lot of business together, a lot of business. I'm not saying suggesting that's the reason why you should do this. We've done a lot of business together. Becky, you and me go to Bones with, with Noel. Let's go to Bones. Have your say. Let him have his say. Take it from there. That's it, Larry.
Noel Cottrell: Thanks DC.
DC: You're welcome.
LT: And no, thanks so much for sharing that.
And you know, ultimately at the end of the day, it's about people. It's just about [00:47:00] people and the connections that we have with people. And the way you describe that story, it, it seems like that really it was caught everyone off guard with what McCann was doing, you know, because of their ownership stake with Fitzgerald and whatnot.
And you're not expecting that. And sometimes in the moment we, we all sort of, uh, oh, what do we do now? And it's really difficult to think about what you do in moments like that, when it's, when it's really shocking and when it actually does impact everything that you do on a human level. And so I would say to you, you know, give yourself some forgiveness on it as well, because I think if you had given the opportunity and the grace to having thought about it, you probably would've acted quite differently.
Um, so again, I think you need to give yourself the forgiveness, uh, on that. And, uh, you know, ultimately it's about people. And, and as DC just [00:48:00] will be the catalyst for it, I'm quite sure that you and Dave will reconnect and that'll be, that'll be an awesome thing And, and, uh, and be great for, for humankind and, and then Brand Nerds, the thing here is it's all about people and forgiveness. We all do things that in retrospect, in different moments, we want, we would redo, but we can't redo it. But some you, you can express forgiveness and, and unfortunately in society today, that's something that's seen as weakness. DC and I don't, we we, we own our F ups all the time.
We apologize to each other almost all the time for just, but that's, that's the way you conduct yourself. You know, you, you can look yourself in the mirror and, and clearly you can, Noel. So kudos to you for expressing all this today. Um,
Noel Cottrell: No, I'm good.
DC: I like to say one thing, um, but Noel, did you wanna say anything before I say this final thing?
Yeah.
Noel Cottrell: No, no, no. It's all good.
DC: Um, Brand Nerds, this is complicated. Being [00:49:00] on the client side for many years, and then also working with clients on the other side. Uh, and also managing a roster of the world's best agencies. I can tell you the way that it goes down situation like this, if I said, and I didn't, I don't think I've done this.
Somebody might say, oh, no. Yes, you did do this DC I, I don't think I've, I've done this when I was on the client side, but if I said on the client side, I want to work with this. I'll continue working with this, this agency, but this woman or man needs to be out, 100 out of 100 times, that person is out. There is no ongoing conversation.
There is none of that. There is, we are making this [00:50:00] decision now because we have been requested to do so. So that's how it goes down. Now, let's just say. That if someone else who was not the person that I said as the client or the owner, I want out, if someone else that worked for that person said, well, if she's out, I'm out.
I would say, don't let the doorknob hit you with a good Lord split you. They'd be out. That's the way it works. There is, there is no like, oh, maybe if two or three of us had said no, they would've, they would've reversed the decision. That was not going to happen. Brand Nerds, that's not how this game works.
It just doesn't work. It's a cold game. I just needed to state that for the record. Just needed to state it. Yeah. Okay.
Noel Cottrell: I'll say, I think, I think the, the one last thing on that to, to close the, the chapter on that is I do think that, you know, [00:51:00] in that moment there was a lot of ego involved. There's a lot of me thinking, you know, thinking a lot of myself and thinking like, you know, this whole Coca-Cola account is, it's all about me and it's me.
And I'm, you know, they're, they're building this team. It's about me. And I didn't really think about Dave in that moment. And I, I should have, and I do think it is easy to look back at your career and be like, where I screwed up, like, how could I have done it differently? And again, I, I think if I went back, I would really try to have done it differently, but I don't know.
Me in that moment, like, whether I would have done it. Like, I mean, I, I would've loved to have done it differently now, but like, I, I can't imagine a scenario there where I would've resigned or like, kind of, or like, I'm not sure what I would've done, but I, I should definitely have stood up more and, and fought it more, you know, and being more like, you know, I don't, I think that the way it was handled was terrible.
Um, and so, anyway. Well, but I DC I appreciate the offer and, um, uh, yeah, my last, uh, I did text Dave recently when he, he retired and I said to him, [00:52:00] I'd love to take him for lunch. And my first word outta my mouth would be, I'm sorry. Yeah. Uh, you know, sort of, uh, so yeah, I, I'd love to, I still would love to do that with him.
And I know, I know we still got a table at Bones.
DC: No doubt.
LT: Uh, we're gonna go to the next question, but Yeah, I want the, just to put the, the exclamation point on this, dare I say, Noel, the way you've described that. You've never done anything like that again. If you've been in a situation where, yeah, it's where, where you know, you feel compromised with someone who you feel really close to that you're just not gonna do that.
So again, Brandon, there's, that's the key there. Okay. Next question. Regarding technology and marketing, you have seen a lot, Noel, can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? Or you can take us to an area or areas that you think they should be leery or simply avoid. What say you?
Noel Cottrell: It's kind of interesting, our, um, our model, um, [00:53:00] not to, not to talk too much about murder hornet, but we have a nest and a swarm model. Like, um, I'm just looking up at the, at our nest. That's
LT: great.
Noel Cottrell: We, we have a nest and a swarm model and a nest desktop. The 12 or so people who work and come into work every day at Myrtle Hornets.
And then we have a swarm of a thousand people that have subscribed and signed up to be part of our swarm. And that's, those are teams that we kind of create bespoke teams for, for different things and, and really that's where I think if I look at why we've done it, is twofold. The one reason is. Because it's more flexible for clients.
Clients can choose teams. Flex teams like shrink a team, change a team was often impossible to do with a, with a more rigid agency structure. And then the second reason we do it, uh, is to protect ourselves. Because this industry, as you both know, is like one of like, you know, hire 50 people 'cause you want a big account, fire 50 people 'cause that account just walked [00:54:00] out the door a year later. Uh, so, you know, we talk about the, the nest and then having a swarm that can kind of like expand and contract, but try and protect the nest in the middle. Um, and right now the most exciting stuff that we're working on is how do we integrate AI to make that thing work so much better?
And again, I, you know, I, I can say the two letters, AI, and I'm pretty sure I understand what a, like a AI agent or a agentic, uh, sort of. Advertising like a sort of agent, AI agent is, and we're, we're working across the board to integrate AI into our workflows, into choosing, um, our swarms, uh, into like how we work with our clients and then even into production.
You know, a year and a half, two years ago, one of our clients came to us and said. We, we think we can knock $300,000 off the, the bottom line here. Like when I say the bottom line, what we're paying you, um, to do these big shoots every year, if we could do it with ai and we didn't blink, we were like, [00:55:00] sure.
Like let's try it. Um, and that same client just signed for their third year with us. Um, and one of the reasons they gave was like, you're saving us so much money doing work using AI. Um, and then even, you know, our account people are so much better and so much more efficient now that they're using all these AI agents and, you know, summaries and, and all that stuff.
And it's kind of. It is interesting because it's not just on the creative side. Um, I think we're all scared, excuse the expression, shitless of AI and what it's gonna do to our industry creatively. But I think the way we're looking at it is, you know, I want to be, I wanna create an AI agent that after we've done like a thousand jobs, I can go and say, this is the brief.
I need to create a team based on our a thousand person swarm. I need the budget to be this. I need timing to be this, and I need this to be the thing. And they will spit out the five person team that is perfect for that job, who has availability, how much they're gonna cost, and what the deliverables and timings are gonna be.
And then bull out a [00:56:00] timeline for me. And a lot of that stuff is where it's getting super, super, super exciting for a small agency that's trying to come up with a new model. You know, again, I, you know, we are not a thousand person, like mega shop. Um, but the AI is really, the, the fear of AI and what it can do is outweighed by the benefit of what it's doing for us right now.
So, you know, we, that is the most exciting part for us. I mean, we've been, I've been all the way. I said earlier when we were chatting that, that my first ads, they, I didn't have a computer, like, literally there was no such a thing. It was like, you know, you're drawing things and doing retro set and cutting out things and photo setting things.
Um, and, and now we're at a stage where we've got AI agents, like creating teams for us. Uh, so it's a, it's, I think you just gotta lean into it. I, and I, there's, there's a few people that I follow and, and who, who write about this stuff. And I think that. You've kind of gotta lean into each of these things. I mean, a year or two ago it was, [00:57:00] what was it?
The metaverse. And then before that, it's like crypto was everything. And there were like all these moments of like, where, you know, oh, we're all gonna be dead from this, or we're all gonna, we've gotta lean into, we've, we've all gotta buy, we've all gotta build a world in, you know, um, and we're all gonna build all these like, weird worlds in the metaverse and then it's gone.
But I, I think you've kind of gotta lean into each one of these because you take something from each one of these things. Like as you, you go, okay, so what is the metaverse? What did that become? Now, you know, kind of like, what is the new metaverse? Or, you know, those are, those are exciting things for me.
It's just sort of like, what can you take from these fads? Um, and you gotta kind of lean into them and then it might pass, but there's also gonna be moments left behind where you go, all right, so Metaverses became, you know, sort of agentic AI. It's like kinda like, you know, there's like these different little things.
Um, and, and now we're, we're just dreaming of what the future could be. And it is super exciting.
LT: I love this. D, any response to Noel? [00:58:00] Mm-hmm. Uh, my quick thing is Noel, uh, DC and I on the show and then off the show, like it's AI is ever present. And, you know, I think a lot of this is the way people look at life.
And we are, uh, I'll speak for both of us here, Dee. We, we are both very hopeful people. We don't live life from fear. And so when you, when you come from that orientation, those are the people that tend to lean in. And I think about even DC think about, um, we, you know, we were exposed to even before Open AI happened, Datanotics, who's been a great partner of our San Sanjay Patel, if you ever need some great research that's AI driven, it's, they're incredible by the way.
It's great. Sa shout on Sanjay. Um, and that was closed AI. They do, they do this incredible research and, and so research has to be closed. You don't want it to be open to the world. So that's [00:59:00] where ICE first started. Oh, this is what this AI thing is about. And then when Open AI happened, DC and I were like, let's take a look.
And it's helped us in immeasurable ways, you know, in so many ways. And we we're true leaning in. Another great friend of ours, Ed Collins, Firebay Studios. I don't know if you, you, if, if, are you familiar with them?
Noel Cottrell: No.
LT: No, you should be because they do all kinds of, you name a voice, intonation, language, whatever, all AI driven and, you know, and, and they pay, they pay actors and, and whatnot.
You know, they're, they're not going around. So we, we are just so leaned into this thing and brand that's. What Noel is saying, that's what DC and I are saying. You can't lean in enough to this, you can't have doubt about this. You gotta jump in all the way, and even to the trends, like Noel said, the metaverse and whatnot, even if it's something that is yesterday's news, you learn from it.
You learn from it. D anything, uh, else to [01:00:00] add before we go to next question?
DC: Uh, one thing, um, we first heard of, uh, AI as artificial intelligence. Then there is, and Noel, I think I heard you say this, there is AGI, artificial general intelligence. There's also an ASI, artificial super intelligence and artificial super intelligence.
This is where technology exceeds. This is what they say exceeds human intelligence. This is when the machines are supposed to go ahead of human intelligence. And I'm not completely convinced that is going to happen. It is predicted to happen, but I'm not totally convinced it's it's gonna happen. And here's the reason why.[01:01:00]
Before AI was created, it took a human to create it. Uh, back in 2005, there was a young dude who had started a company in technology, later picked up by Y Combinator, and it was called Looped, L-O-O-P-T. It was the one of the first location based, uh, pieces of technology for mobile phones. So this, we're going back 21 years ago where one could let someone else know where they were.
And back then there was this fear of creepiness of, oh, you're going to, people have stalkers, that kind of thing. But this particular company led by A CEO thought that it was worthy technology. He also knew that he [01:02:00] needed marketing and a place to put, should I say nest? The, uh, the technology. And it was on mobile devices.
The deal was done between looped L-O-O-P-T and Boost Mobile. And our tagline at the time was, where you at? And it was boost and Loopt and we did a whole marketing campaign behind it. Uh, Neil Lindsay and his team, Craig Toley, they, they initiated this deal with this young dude who, who was in this twenties.
The guy's name is Sam Altman. That's, that's his name.
LT: Crazy.
DC: Yeah. Yeah. That, that's his name. I, I mentioned Sam Altman. Is, is because he, as most of the Brand Nerds know, head of open ai, OpenAI was bounced. Microsoft says, no, brings him back even more power. It [01:03:00] took him, Sam Altman, and a team of people to come up with AI.
I believe that even with super artificial, super intelligence, there's still gotta be some humans.
LT: I agree.
DC: Co coding this thing. I, I, I believe that. So that's my takeaway.
Noel Cottrell: Love that.
DC: Yep.
LT: All right.
Noel Cottrell: You're saying, so you're saying there's a chance we might survive DC?
DC: There's, there, there's a outside chance.
Outside chance we might survive. Yes.
LT: Uh, this is great. All right, D, we ready to move Next section?
DC: Let's do it. Let's do it.
LT: All right, Dee, what's popping? What's popping? No.
Noel Cottrell: Uh
LT: uh. This is just a quick intro. Our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply as something happening in around marketing today we think is good fodder for the discussion.
We, you have a great topic. Hit us with it, please.
Noel Cottrell: So, for the last 50 years in advertising, it's been the, the holding companies moment. It's been the big companies, the big [01:04:00] agencies, and those big brands that, you know, DC you mentioned some of them earlier, the J Walter Thompsons, the Ogilvys, the, you know, all the big companies have all been, you know, those big brands that have been around since the forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, you know, and the, the model has been very similar for a very long time.
I would say in the last two years we've seen that like. Fall apart. I mean, I, I say that like, we've seen like, I mean the, the thought of like, you know, a BBDO and a FCB, like being in the same holding company, the fact that the, like they've killed so many of the brands, you know, the gray advertising is gone.
A lot of the, like, the big main brands are gone. Um, and even FCB is gone. I mean, it's like Foot Cone building was this massive brand, it was agency one of the agents of the year last year at Canned. They're, they're rationalizing the fact that WPP is about to launch WPP Creative, it's gonna kill all the agency brands and it's gonna be just WPP Creative [01:05:00] and they're like these big holding companies are firing every round.
It's three 4,000 people who are being laid off and it's creating this kind of gig economy of like all these freelancers. Um, and we're kind of here to catch the freelancers in our swarm a thousand person swarm, which is growing every day. Um, and then. Trying to come up with more flexible, different models that save our agency, unlike what's happening on the other side.
And then also trying to like save clients. 'cause clients are the reason those agents, those things are shrinking, um, is because the clients aren't spending as much money. The, the clients are spending a lot of money, for example, with the influences or with other, you know, sort of a good example is, I saw a budget the other day and our budget was, our production budget was, I'll just make these numbers up, 200,000.
And the influencer who was on it was 2 million. Um, and that's for television versus influencer. I was like, what? I was like, what is it? The influencer just has to pick up their phone and record themselves. It's like it costs them nothing. I have to produce an entire [01:06:00] like, campaign for this.
DC: Oh yeah.
Noel Cottrell: So it's kind of, we're in this new world and I think the agencies are just.
Sort of like cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting. And we're kind of looking for the next thing. And I think it is the Indies. If you look around for the first time, a lot of the award shows, the ad award shows, like the One Club is doing a indie award show this year for the first time. I'm judging it.
Um, there's also like, Canne, you know, there's, there's cheaper entry fees, there's cheaper, um, things for the Indies. 'cause they realize like this is coming. It's not even just coming. It's there. You look at the Super Bowl, you look at the Super Bowl agencies like High Dive, doing like two or three like TV commercials and they're the best ones.
Or Eric and Coleman like doing two, two or three TV commercial like Super Bowl TV commercials. These are just guys who
DC: Artist equity.
Noel Cottrell: And they're coming, they're coming outta nowhere and just doing this great, great, great work. Um, and it's no longer just like the Sissy Boy Jeans who are looking for a small agency to do some crazy creative.
It's big clients. It's Lipton and [01:07:00] Tazo. We are their agency of record for North America. Like it's kind of, and we're 12 people with a thousand person swarm. You know, I think that the whole, the whole holding company model, it's kind of interesting 'cause we sit in a, in a building that is like, we're in the third level and WPP is above us, um, in our building.
Oh, wow. Uh, so we're, we've, we've put our little hornets nest right up underneath them. So it's kind of, uh, it is kind of, it's fun to watch the, like everyone's scrambling to rearrange the deck chairs on the holding company Titanic. Uh, while all these indies are blown up and, you know, can't, like mischief, no fixed address and like, who are really like having great like success against the holding company model. And I think it's, it's just pivoting quickly and trying to, trying to reinvent a model and do something different. Because I do think the end is coming for like the big, like three martini lunch, like kind of, um, oh yeah. You know, like those giant [01:08:00] productions and you know, the little, like, suddenly people are giving us $41,000 to do a TV commercial.
And you're like, you know, in the old days you'd be like, that's not the hotel budget. What are you talking about? Now we're like, all right, so how are we gonna do this? How are we gonna make it happen? How are we gonna, yeah. And then like, we want 10 posts, like social posts for it, and we need like in store and digital and we need like X amount of stuff and it's 41,000.
We're like, okay, we've gotta make some money on that. We've gotta pay people to do it. Yeah. And we've gotta do it, but, but if you don't know how to do that, you're dead. You're dead in the water because, and then obviously you'll still get the bigger ones where you've got two and a half million dollar TV budget, but those are rarer and rarer in today's environment, you know?
So I would say that the, what's happening with the holding companies and like the consolidation and killing of all the brands and pushing 'em into like, like a small ball. Um, and then just all the people who are falling outta that. I mean, if, if you're on LinkedIn right now, like it is, it's a bloodbath out there.
Like, you know, the people like, you know, sort of leaving the jobs every [01:09:00] day. It's kind of in our industry. Uh, but I do think that we're gonna have to, as a group of people, we're all gonna have to, um, we're gonna have to find what's next and, you know, find what's next for all these people. Uh, and I do think that, you know, creating your own, your own thing and doing your own DIY and becoming an influencer, you know, I, I know he is a controversial figure, but Gary V of VaynerMedia, like Gary Vaynerchuk, like, I love what he's preaching, you know, about, like, just get out there, turn the camera on yourself, stop to talk, become a brand, you know, there's, uh, the future's super exciting.
LT: D thoughts?
DC: It's a good one. I, I, I have thoughts.
LT: Please go.
DC: I like corollaries holding companies. You mentioned this Noel, when they were at their zenith, they had multiple brands that they either bought or built and the holding company was in the [01:10:00] background. It was the brands
Noel Cottrell: Yeah.
DC: That were known. And you had three different types of, uh, parts of the industry and disciplines that were the lead in any brand.
Some brands are creatively driven.
LT: Mm-hmm.
DC: Some brands are account planning, uh, uh, account management driven, and other brands are strategy. Planning driven. Each of these different brands has a lead. One would argue Widen was more creative, uh, driven. Mm-hmm. One would say McCann back in the day, account management driven.
Some might say that Saachi was more, uh, strategy planning, uh, driven. You can debate, but they were brands. The holding companies were in the background. Now you hear things like WPP [01:11:00] Creative. What they're trying to do is create a new brand, WPP, the holding company and turn that into a a B2B facing brand.
And I think they're going in the wrong direction. And here's my corollary. It's kinda like Hollywood. In Hollywood, you have these major studios that no one cared about. They cared about the brand called the movie. They didn't care that it came from MGM or from 20th Century. They just cared. What's the movie, the brand.
And then another rung down in Hollywood is like, even if you won't dig in the movie, you dig the star. The star of the movie. These are the influencers. The stars now. And so comp, you asked what's gonna happen next. I believe the holding companies are going the wrong direction. The direction they need to go to are the stars.[01:12:00]
This is why Diageo followed you around. No.
LT: Yep.
DC: You are a star.
LT: Yep.
DC: So they're going after the stars that can actually give them the ideas. CAA is a talent agency. They are dealing with the stars. They had the power. They're going to have the power. And until the holding companies start to wake up to the fact that they need to be taking care of the stars and growing those brands, they're gonna lose.
That's my point of view.
Noel Cottrell: Yeah, I love that. DCI, you'll, you'll appreciate this. The first time I stepped on the campus that Meta, um, in Palo Alto, it was a long time ago, like maybe 2015. Um, I, I, I lined up to get a, like a really great breakfast and a, and a coffee all for free, and was walking off to my meeting and I phoned my wife and I said, you know, she's just woken up on the East coast.
And I said to her, baby, we're in the right business. We're just in the wrong part of it. I, [01:13:00]
DC: yeah,
Noel Cottrell: I was like, we're in advertising and marketing, but like these guys have, there's something here that they're doing that I don't really, uh, at the time I was like. This is, there's a lot of money here and they're making a lot of money.
I don't know what it is. I'm like a, I'm gonna, some sort of weird contraption flying around this campus with, uh, with free food and Starbucks. It's like that they're doing something right. You know?
LT: Yeah. I, I'd like to chime in on here. I think everything you guys are saying is really right on. I'll also add to this, D, we've had this conversation a lot, Noel, on the show, um, and this goes to regular companies, whether they're B2C or B2B.
Most companies, as DC was alluding to in the, in the agency side, you know, they're account driven or they're creative driven or strategy driven. Just like companies, many of them are finance driven or sales driven, right?
DC: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
LT: Or marketing driven. What these holding companies are doing. It sounds like the finance people are taking over because they just see an opportunity to cut costs, cut [01:14:00] costs, and they're not understanding how that relevancy plays out to clients.
And at the end of the day, look, Noel, your career is, is symbolic of what I'm gonna say at the, at the end of the day, as DC alluded to, when you're a client and we're, we're consultants, but we always think of ourselves as clients. No. 'cause once having stewarded brands, you always think that way. You're always looking for the best creative partners.
DC said this in his intro, right? And so no matter where they are, we don't care if the, you know, that becomes political. Like when in, in the Coke uni universe, when we had to be with all, you know, the McCann oriented shops, right? Um, IPG and whatnot. And then Pepsi's with all, you know, BBDO and their clan. Uh, at the end of the day, if you're a great, um, steward of a brand, you wanna have creative partners.
And if they're with folks like Murder Hornet, even better. 'cause it cuts away the bullshit that you can then just, you know, work singularly with people [01:15:00] who can be great creative partners. And they're missing the boat here because what all they're doing is opening up huge opportunities for lo folks like yourself who are gonna then have more of these creative stars that you're able to bring into to your universe and then provide the clients with what, what they're gonna ultimately need.
So that's the way I think of it. It is something that's always been done about, you know, these holding companies, buying and selling, but ultimately it's about the people who are best at, uh, at, at the creative side and really helping steward these brands forward in a big way like you've done.
Noel Cottrell: Thanks, Larry.
I love that. And I, you know, just the last thing to mention is, which we haven't hit on at all, is media. I think one of the big moments where everything changed was when media and creative split up and
LT: Yes. '
Noel Cottrell: cause the money, the money was always in the media. Like, so That's right. Those, those big companies were sitting there with like, you know, like all the media and creative, the creative was the last leader.
Um, yep. It was a, it was the sexy stuff to get the clients in the door, but they made all their money on [01:16:00] media. And the moment
LT: That's right,
Noel Cottrell: those big holding companies were like, we're creating a, like, just a giant big media company over here and we're gonna keep these poor creative shops trying to make money over here.
They just, uh, I think that's another reason that they are struggling is because the model was made on we're gonna, we're gonna give away our creative and we're gonna make all our money on media. And the moment those things split, um, I think that's, I mean, I think we all know that that was like one of the big moments where now creative agencies are trying to make money on their own, basically billing, like a lawyer, like an hourly rate.
Yeah.
LT: Yeah.
Noel Cottrell: Uh, and that's not, that's never gonna, that's never gonna work.
LT: Back to the old 15% of media days back, way back. That's the dream. That's right. Yeah.
Noel Cottrell: This is my, uh, that's an actual Japanese Murder Hornet gents.
LT: Oh, awesome. Super cool. The folks on YouTube could see that. Uh, that's awesome. All right.
Well, Noel, this has been amazing, truly amazing. Uh, this is our time to, to sort of, uh, uh, posit our learnings. We, these go, these [01:17:00] shows go way too fast when we have amazing guests like you. Um, so I have some, uh, I have, uh, some great learnings here. I'm gonna share. Um, so number one, Brand Nerds, as Noel did in his early twenties.
When you're living your life at that point in your life, just live your life. But then also be open. Be open and conscious of what may be calling you. As DC said, recognize, and that's what Noel did. So no matter what point in your life, be conscious, think about what's around you. Opportunity could be right there at the the next coffee you're going to, who knows?
That's number one. Number two, Sissy Boy Jeans, Brand Nerds is the ultimate example of what we talk about a lot on this show of sacrifice. Sissy Boy Jeans is not trying to sell, was not trying to sell any jeans to any dude, and they were trying to sell those jeans to women and a certain kind of woman. And the emotional connection then happened because they [01:18:00] understood that in a big way.
So that's number two. Number three, to be a great client. And there's two things that become Uber important to be a great client. One of them we talked about, one of them we did not. We, we think of Ronald Sassoon again with Sissy Boy Jeans. To be brave like Ronald, he gotta be brave. And then also, you can't just be brave, but you also have to know what you want.
And you, when you're working with really great creative people like Noel, you've gotta give really smart, concise, cogent direction. You brave and you give that cogent smart direction. You're gonna get great results like they did with Sissy Boy Jeans. Number four, like Noel does in life. Brand Nerds, be curious and go forward with that learning orientation.
Um, and I got two more. Number five, like Noel did so eloquently with, uh, his F up. Own your F up like Noel and really own it and apologize as [01:19:00] part of owning it. And then the last one, Brand Nerds. And this is an overall one. If you can live your life with forgiveness, yeah, you're gonna get mad at people and, and things are gonna happen in your life, but ultimately at the end of the day, when you have connections with people, that's most important.
So live your life with forgiveness and expel all the bitterness. Those are my learnings and they're great. Noel, thank you.
Noel Cottrell: I love that. Larry, thanks so much. Yeah, a great summary. Thank you.
DC: Really,
Noel Cottrell: it's, uh, yeah, thanks and thanks so much for having me, guys. It's been a, an absolute pleasure.
DC: We we're not done yet, brother.
We're not done yet. We we're not, we're not done yet. We got a little bit more to go.
LT: DC's turn.
Noel Cottrell: Oh good. Oh, good.
DC: At this stage of the program, I'm making an attempt. No. The attempt is to articulate to the brand nerds and more importantly to you what it is I think that you have offered and are offering us [01:20:00] in the world that of the 8 billion people that are now here.
We wouldn't be getting in the same way, um, that we get it from you. If you weren't giving it to us, we would not get it. It's difficult for me when we have guests on the podcast that I know. I have to take back anything that I know and go open canvas, clean what is no painting for me to notice. And I'm gonna tell you what I believe you've painted for me. In the Get Comfy section, you talked about going to the meeting with one of the Saatchi brothers. You were a kid. No. There are some people that might have been dating, um, a a, uh, a person who said, I want you to go meet. [01:21:00] Uh, uh, one of the sas and you might've been like, well, is it your mom? Is it your dad? Is it your family? Well, then I don't know that I want to go, but you went,
Noel Cottrell: Yeah.
DC: Once you get into Saatchi and you see that green painted wall and these creatives who are dressed up in proper tennis gear going up against the wall with a tennis ball, you're like, oh, that I, I think this is it for me. It's a little problem though. You are not there legally, and they're asking you, oh, hey, hey, no, you can you give us your number?
Can you give us something so we know you're good? And you never gave it up, but you never stopped going. Meeting Saatchis as well as staying in the game so you could get your little case that took you being brave. [01:22:00] When you answered the first question about your first branding experience, to what Larry alluded, you talked about Sissy Boy Jeans, karma sutra, um, a a a, uh, pornography full middle page, multiple spread ad with a naked man.
Uh, by the way, there's a theme happening here on the whole karma sutra stuff, but we won't get into that. You and your creative partner had to be brave to even bring that to your client. I know your client gave you a great brief. Ronald Sassoon gave you a great brief. To meet and exceed that brief took you being brave.
When we ask you who is having the most influence on your career, you'd already mentioned some of the folks that you worked with earlier, but you talked about Alex, you, you called her over. Here, Alex [01:23:00] is recognized as one of the 30 under 30. It was brave of you to say, I'm going to partner on a brand new firm, and most firms don't make it with a person who is significantly younger and has significantly less experienced than I do in this business.
That was brave. When we ask you about your biggest F up, you talked about Dave Fitzgerald, Fitz, and you apologized publicly. You gotta be brave to apologize publicly. When we ask you about technology, you talked about the nest and the swarm that you have. Nest 10, 12 people, swarm of a thousand. And you specifically mentioned creative violence is what you all believe in.
[01:24:00] I'm thinking about all of that. Noel and lt, and I'm like,
Noel Cottrell: Hmm,
DC: all of this bravery stuff and creative violence. And then I thought about the name of your company, Murder Hornet. So I went and looked up of all of the hornets, what species is the bravest. Now this is before you raised up the Japanese, this is before you raised this up.
It is the Asian Giant Hornet, otherwise known as sfa, Vespa Mandarin. And here is how it's described, why people would say it's the bravest of all of the hornets. It's large, one and a half to two inches long. It can co coordinate group attacks on bee colonies. [01:25:00] On be colonies, alright.
Noel Cottrell: Holding companies.
DC: Yep. I mean colonies.
Colonies, yes. It uses powerful jaws to kill. Pray quickly. And finally it says colonies defend their nest fiercely and won't hesitate to confront much larger animals if threatened.
Noel Cottrell: Love that.
DC: So what I believe you are my brother is you are the Vespa Mandarinia of creative ideas. That's what you are, brother.
You are the Asian Giant. Giant. There we go.
LT: Noel is showing up the, the showing it up to us right on the screen.
DC: Oh, okay. Now, and by the way, he's showing it on the screen with the Asian, so he is showing me the, and
Noel Cottrell: Yeah.
DC: I had already written this down before you showed that. [01:26:00] That's you brother. That's you.
Noel Cottrell: Thank you man.
Thanks tc. It's really great. And thanks so much for having me. I really like appreciate this and appreciate the, the run, the run back through memory, memory lane and also like a little look into the future, you know, the, you know,
LT: oh yeah.
Noel Cottrell: Chatting about, chatting about Alex and chatting about the, the AI stuff and what, how we're using it and what we're planning to do.
So it was a, like, it felt like a look back and a look forward and, uh, it was really exciting. Thanks so much.
LT: That's, that's the best conversations. That's the best conversations. No, you were amazing. Uh, we're going to hit the show close now. Brand nerds. Thanks so much.
DC: Hey, hey. Hey, Larry. Can I just do one, two things more before we get outta here?
Sorry to interrupt you.
LT: Sure.
DC: The first I'd be remiss if I didn't say this. Uh, uh, Brand Nerds. Noel and I are girl dads. I've got three daughters, I think Noel two.
Noel Cottrell: Yeah.
DC: Yep. Two. And, uh, our, our, uh, each of us has a daughter. His daughter, uh, is Sasha. My daughter's Lauren, they're [01:27:00] besties. And I'd be remiss if I did not say that I am really happy that my daughter Lauren gets to have a bestie and your daughter Sasha, because I know the cut from which she is, uh, the cloth from which she is cut.
So I wanna say that.
Noel Cottrell: Oh, thank you, sir.
DC: Here. You're welcome brother. And then goes, goes both
Noel Cottrell: ways is
DC: no. Say it again. No, I didn't hear you.
Noel Cottrell: Uh, it goes both ways. DC Same. Same there.
DC: Thank you brother. And then finally, before we go to the show close is, what did you get out of this, if anything, this discussion you've had with us?
Noel Cottrell: So, yeah, I mean, thanks DC I mean, and honestly I think it was a really great exercise 'cause um, Jade, your producer, like, you know, hit me up with the questions yesterday to prepare a little bit, and now I spent the night thinking about them and then kind of coming in and, uh, and, and talking to you guys about them definitely took like some different turns from what I thought we were gonna be chatting about.
[01:28:00] And, you know, I, I purposefully, you know, I knew I'd get emotional about the Dave Fitzgerald thing because, you know, like when you're effed up it's like, it's emotional, it's not, you know, something that's there. And I, and I, you know, I felt, I felt that emotion. I think when you are, when the Brand Nerds see it, they'll feel it, you know, they're like, you know, it's real.
And, uh, and so it was a really special conversation with people that I like DC that I've known for you and someone who's been really great and, you know, part of my career. And I just wanna say thanks. A huge thanks. I, I could not have had more fun doing this.
DC: Great. Thanks. No. Sorry, Larry. I, I just wanted to give a little space for that.
LT: I'm glad you gave the space. That's perfect. Uh, that's a much better ending. So, brand nerd, thanks so much for listening to Brands. Beats and Bites, the executive producers of brands. Beats and Bytes are Jeff Shirley, Darryl DC Cobbin, Larry Taman Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro.
DC: The pod father.
LT: That is he. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share and for those on Apple [01:29:00] podcasts if you are so inclined, we love those excellent reviews.
We hope you enjoyed this podcast, and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.