The Truth About Hockey Development with Patrick Schafer

In this episode of Stop and Starts, Marc Genest sits down with Patrick Schafer of Schaefer Hockey Group to discuss one of the most important topics in youth hockey: finding the right path for player development.

From youth hockey and junior hockey to college recruiting and professional opportunities, Patrick shares insights from his playing career, coaching experience, and years of advising players and families through the ever-changing hockey landscape.

The conversation covers development versus exposure, why every player's journey is different, the role of advisors, what scouts are really looking for, the importance of hockey IQ, and why playing time often matters more than logos on a jersey.

Whether you're a player, parent, coach, or hockey family trying to navigate today's development system, this episode offers valuable perspective on making decisions that support long-term growth and success.

00:00 – Why Stop and Starts exists: development over destinations
02:00 – Introducing Patrick Schafer and Schaefer Hockey Group
03:30 – Patrick's hockey journey from Ohio to professional hockey
06:00 – Playing for legendary coach Mike Hastings
09:30 – Why today's players look more prepared than ever
10:45 – The missing piece: hockey IQ and game awareness
13:00 – Skill development vs. understanding the game
16:00 – Creativity in hockey and developing decision-makers
18:00 – Why heart matters more than size
20:00 – The challenge of evaluating players at showcase camps
24:00 – What Patrick looks for in players and families
26:00 – Why self-awareness matters in player development
29:00 – The importance of fit, timing, and opportunity
34:00 – Do hockey players need an advisor?
36:00 – When should families seek an advisor?
37:00 – AAA vs. AA: Does it really matter?
39:00 – Why college hockey remains a powerful development path
41:00 – The value of Division III hockey and alternative routes
43:00 – The mission behind Stop and Starts
45:00 – Helping players through adversity and growth
46:00 – Final thoughts on development, opportunity, and success

Creators and Guests

Host

Marc Genest

Born and raised in Canada, where hockey isn’t just played—it’s lived. Marc brings over 450 professional games of experience and more than a decade of player development to athletes serious about reaching the next level.

Guest

Patrick Schafer

Founder and President of Schafer Hockey Group

What is Between the Shifts — Presented by StopNStarts Hockey?

Between the Shifts is a monthly show for players, parents, coaches, and youth hockey leaders navigating the fast, confusing and often expensive world of youth hockey. Hosted by a former professional player, coach, and parent, and owner of STOPnSTARTS Hockey, Marc Genest. We carve into player development, real-life family stories, coaching culture, costs, training pathways, and everything young athletes and their communities are facing today. Whether you’re in a traditional hockey market or growing the game in the South, this podcast helps you make smarter decisions, understand your options, and avoid common pitfalls. Join us for honest conversations that empower families and fuel hockey dreams.

patrickschafer-2026-6-8__11-31-5-CFR
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[00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Welcome to Between the Shifts, uh, Stop and Starts, uh, podcast. Today we have a interesting guest. Uh, he's, uh, actually an advisor. We're gonna discuss, uh, different paths, when advising is necessary, uh, what level of player am I, uh, when do, when should I have an advisor? Again, Patrick Schaefer with the Schaefer Hockey Group will be our guest today, and we're talking about advising.

Marc Genest: But first I, I just wanted to address a couple of comments. I was going to, and then I, I decided I wasn't going to, and then I just said, "You know, the hell with it."

I, I, I ... It's beyond me not to respond. So, um, anyway, my, my thing is this about some of the comments that I make, that Stop and Starts was [00:01:00] created to be an avenue to help kids with their individual paths and their development. No mention of D1, CHL, NHL, or any of those things, right? I'm talking about development.

And again, that's where people, and I think that's where this is so beneficial, this website, these podcasts, to educate people. Some people may wanna take me word for word, but again, they don't always apply to every player. And in certain situations, is it better to sit on the bench or is it better to get ice time, right?

For development. I'm not talking about D1 scholarship, I'm not talking about CHL, I'm not talking about NHL, I'm not talking about being a first-round pick. I'm talking about development, getting better. That's what development means. And so without getting too fired up, I, I, I do like to stress the fact that Stop and Starts was created to help individual kids find their way, find their paths, and that [00:02:00] every path is different for every player. So anyway, I just wanted to clear that up, clear the air. Now moving on to much better things. Today, we have another guest that can add some insight into, into these various paths and these various insights on, on where to go, what to do, who am I, what kind of player you are. Are you an early bloomer?

Are you a, a 6'2" 15-year-old? Are you a, a 5'9" 15-year-old? What are the best paths? What's your skill set? And no better guest for us to, to learn more about this process and how things go, um, than Patrick Schaefer with Schaefer Hockey Group. So Patrick welcome to the show. Glad to have you on board.

This is gonna be a great show.[00:03:00]

Patrick Schafer: Yep. No, thank you very much for having me, first and foremost. Um, and again, you kinda stole a couple of my ideas already, I was gonna say, 'cause you know, it is true. Everyone has a different path, right? And I think when you're looking at where your path is, what, what fits you, right? Like, are you a kid that, you know, wants to be close and be in your hometown, right?

You're a Pittsburgh kid. Do, do you wanna play in Johnstown? Or do you... You know what I mean? Do you wanna go across the country? I mean, with the USHL expanding, right, now, like, do those kids wanna stay out there or, you know, in, in Bauer's situation even, do you, do you go to Quebec, right? Do you leave Carolina to go up there?

I think everyone's path is different and you have to find what, what fits, and that's what I think I try and provide for my clients, um, is just help them find the right path and see what fits best for them

Marc Genest: So Shaef, let's before we dive in, and this will be a hot topic, this will be a hot button, there'll be all kinds of comments. I'm super pumped to see the response from this stuff. But and I don't wanna get you in in [00:04:00] any kind of trouble, so if you feel like, you know, we're infringing on certain relationships just say, "I plead the fifth," okay?

And

that'll be fine. But let's just start off by talking about, um, where you grew up, how you got into hockey. Let's just, you know, really bring it down. Again, there's a lot of excitement with this podcast today, so I, I, I wanna kinda just kinda ease on in a little bit. And, and let's just start about where Patrick Schaefer grew up, where you started playing hockey, um, all the way up to your pro career

Patrick Schafer: Yep. Um, actually interesting. Mine was very different, I think, path, but things have changed now. Um, but when I was a kid, right, I was in Columbus, Ohio, right? You know, like, we had, we had the, we had the Columbus Chill, right? And, you know, I started, I was a stick boy, got to know Keith Morris, um, some of those other guys.

I think I, I think I said you, you were there at one point when I was probably around being [00:05:00] a stick boy, too. Yeah, so got there. But, um, but again, we didn't have that. So my dad he would have to drive me three days a week all the way to Cleveland, which was two hours, to play for the Barons, right?

Um, and then I was fortunate enough, um, to play for Mark Fritchie, who's with the Omaha Lancers. Um, unbelievable person, does a great job, great hockey guy. Um, and so played with him, had my tender, right? Um, played a year, um, in the North American League. Was fortunate enough to be an assistant captain.

Had some other really good teammates that kind of helped me through that. I had Tim Alexander was coaching me. Um, and then I committed to Ohio State. Um, and after that, um, made the move to Omaha Lancers again and played for probably, I would say, the best coach that ever coached in the game, Mike Hastings.

Unbelievable person, unbelievable coach. I mean, look where, look what he does. Everywhere he goes, he wins, right? And he [00:06:00] teaches a lot of lessons, and

Marc Genest: , It's one thing about winning, and one thing you'll get from me anytime I can slide in my, my two cents, I mean, it, it, development and a good culture and good coaching breeds winning. If, you know I don't know Mike Hastings personally. Obviously, he's had a sound impact on your career.

Um, but I, I also, I wa- I watched Frozen Four, and you could see how he communicates with his players. I've seen enough stuff on social media to kinda get a grasp on what kind of player he i- or what kind of coach he is, what kind of player he coaches, how he coaches his players. Um, anyway

Patrick Schafer: Yeah, but no 100%. But the one thing that I think he instilled in us too was we wanted to play for him, right? We wanted to play, you know, 'cause we knew he would do anything for us, and that's all he asked. He's like, "I'll put my name out there and help you, but you gotta do the same thing when you're playing for me," right?

And it was who's sitting next to you in the room, right? I can go through all my teammates [00:07:00] and, um, you know, it's, it's one of those things like that those group of friends are guys that I, you know they're still my closest friends. There are weddings together, tr- trips, all that stuff, you know? Um,

Marc Genest: Circle is tight, right? And, and it's for forever. So off to play for him at Omaha Lancers, and then where did you go?

Patrick Schafer: Then to Ohio State, um, it was awesome too. I was, again fortunate. I was the first kid from the Columbus area to play for the Buckeyes, hometown kid, so that was important to me. I always wanted to be a Buckeye. I went to the camps when I was little, did all that stuff, so it was awesome there. I had a great, great career there.

Um, again, I mean, every- everywhere you go, there's someone knows the Buckeyes, right? I mean, um, like of course they're a football school, but also, I mean, we did great with the fans in coming to our games too. So, um, just again, great spot there. And then after that, um, [00:08:00] made the jump, um, and played my first year with the Arizona Sundogs.

Um, it was great there, and then kinda bounced around a little bit in the coast and the, um, Central. But yeah, I mean, again, just awesome places. Like I said, it, You never think of these places you go to, right? Like when I played for the Aces, right? I'm like, "When would I ever live in Alaska?" And you go up there, and it's, again, one of the coolest places, you know?

I mean, also too, another one I have to keep going back to, but like Omaha, you don't, you don't realize how cool Omaha is until you go there, right? Like it's not just cornfields. They had a great

Marc Genest: I just think space

Patrick Schafer: the World Series, you know, they got all that, so...

Marc Genest: Yeah.

Patrick Schafer: But, um

Marc Genest: Uh, so, so obviously you had a lot of people help you in your career, you know, outside of dad and, and mom being behind you 100% and supporting you and taking you where you needed to go.

Patrick Schafer: not to, not to, Jenny, not to cut you off, but I also have to throw in, too my grandparents. Um, they're unbelievable. And unfortunately I just lost my grandma. [00:09:00] But, um, you know, it's funny, whenever I'd need anything, I'd, I'd say, "Hey, Mammaw, can I get a new pair of skates?" You know? And she'd be like, "How much are the skates?"

And I'd tell her, you know, and they were the CCM Tacks back then, you know? So, um, but yeah, I mean, y- you don't get anywhere without, without help. And also, going into my job with what I do with, with my clients and stuff too, I wanna make sure that, like, you know, anything they're going through I, I've kind of been through myself, right?

Through the process of playing. And that's something I like to bring, and I think that's something that, you know, my company provides for, for players, right?

Marc Genest: on, and on that same topic, what made you get into this type of advising agency role?

Patrick Schafer: So when I was coaching in, um, Springfield for the Junior Blues in North American League I worked with Tony Zezelowski, unbelievable guy. Um, he's the commissioner now for the the USPHL. Um, does a great job. Um, but when I was working there it was great 'cause I, I loved helping the [00:10:00] kids, right?

And I was able to use the connections that I had to help with schools, right? But I was also kinda limited 'cause I can only have those kids come to my team, you know, when I had kids all over that I wanted to help. So that's, that's kinda what helped me get into it, was just wanting to, wanting to help the kids, right?

And with the way it is today, it's, it's hard, you know? And like you said, you wanna have someone to lean on. So that's

Marc Genest: Yeah. I mean, it's a tough enough path, you know, and, and we'll dive into, to that stuff. Um,

what do you see out there today? Like, when you're, when you're, um, I'm sure you watch a ton of hockey, right? And, and when you're out there, what, what do you see today in, in the players? Like, you know, you look at back where you were and I look back at where I was, and you look at the player today.

What, what do you see out there? What's your initial assessment of the player today?

Patrick Schafer: Everyone looks great in warmups, right? Everyone can skate around, [00:11:00] rip pucks. Like, they look fancy, you know what I mean? And everything's so now, like, oh, do, do you go to this s- skating coach? Do you go to this skills guy, whatever. You know what I mean? Like, those things are valuable, trust me. I mean, especially out here in New England, we have some of the best.

But I think more now it's just like, again, kind of what you said, I don't think the kids watch the game. I don't think they watch hockey. I think they're so worried about their skill and everything like that, they forget about to compete. You know, they can f- you know, they forget about what makes a play, right?

Like, you know, like are you hard to play against? You know, like little things, you know? Um, just making a s- small, you know, chip off the boards or something support underneath, or something as simple... I, I had a kid that was playing for me in a summer tournament and he came down on the right side, ripped one across, it was a breakout.

They came down and scored, right? 'Cause he was trying to go short side. So I said, "Hey, you had a guy going to the net far pad." He's like, "What's far pad?" I'm like "Shoot for a rebound because he's gonna make that initial save, but the puck's right there. You bang it [00:12:00] in," right? So just, just little things like that, you know?

I don't think these guys watch, um, as much too. But I mean, one I'll say, too, is you watch him in the playoffs, been so fun to watch, is just watch Eichel. Guy's unbelievable. Just the little things that he does and what he did for, for Team USA too, right? Like can he produce, right? Like I think he said the other day, what he was like, "I haven't scored in a million days," or something like that I think he said, you know?

But when he scored it was a timely goal, right? And but he also brings so much more faceoffs, winning, you know, puck battles in the corner, blocking shot, PK, stuff like that too. Um, and also I know we can get kind of scatterbrained and all that stuff with this, but also, too, that's another thing too is like, you know, guys don't realize how important it is, like I'm saying with the details.

Like, I got a lot of shifts when I was playing because I could win a faceoff, right? And they'd put you out for, you know, the last 30 seconds to win a draw back in the D zone or win it back to your skill [00:13:00] guy that can go put the puck in the net, right? Something

Marc Genest: That's right.

Patrick Schafer: Or,

Marc Genest: Or start period, right? Start a period, change the momentum. I mean, it's all about puck possession, gaining momentum, and, and making good decisions with the puck, I feel like. I mean, how do you feel like the player is, is... I feel like watching the kids today, like I, I, I see my kids, and yes, I went to the gym, but I feel like the kids are a lot more prepared today.

You know what I mean? Like, I, I know we can delve into the, the fact that they're doing too much skill and n- not enough hockey IQ stuff, which is kinda hard to teach i- in, in all fairness. But, um, I just feel like the players are more prepared today. Like they're, they're, they know they have to be fit. They know they have to have their conditioning.

D- do you agree? I mean, do you, do you feel like the player is that much more prepared today than we were?

Patrick Schafer: Yeah, I think I, I agree with that. Yeah, absolutely. Like, these kids are just jacked now, right? I'm coming in and everything like that, you're like, [00:14:00] these kids are insane. Like, o- one of my, one of my kids too, I have the, the Missouri's, right? So, um, John, who's a unbelievable coach in Massachusetts for Arlington High, um, does a great job there.

He's the all-time leading scorer at Princeton. He coaches, helps a lot of guys with different things. But like, same thing too, you know, you talk about size and different things like that, but his son, JP, who just got drafted with , Tri-City. , But again, that kid, he's 5'8", 5'9", bench presses 355. Like, that's an... Or 255 or something like that. Insane. Whatever the numbers are, these kids are so strong now, and they are prepared. It's like, it's, it's just insane, you know?

And

Marc Genest: The, the, I, I think the emphasis has been on, you know, you have to do this, you have to do that. And, and y- you know, you tackle this skill, you, you, you go to your skill session, you go to the gym. And it's just much more, um, structured, I guess you would say. W- w-

whether That's good or [00:15:00] bad. the, the the one piece that's missing, in my opinion, is a, a lot more hockey IQ, a lot more watching, watching the game, understanding the game, reading and reacting.

That's one thing I've taught till till I was blue in the face is that, look, you know, I ... Hockey's a g- a great game, right? We have certain plays, set plays, but man one different move from an opposing player, and that changes the outcome of where you should be. So now, if I told you to be just inside the hash marks or at top of the circle, that might change a little bit now.

You have to read and react according to what's happening. And, and that's the only thing I feel like, you know, there's a lot of kids that are real big kids at 15, can skate, can shoot, got great hands, but gosh, you put 'em in a hockey game and you're talking about practice players, right? And I'm talking about, gosh, you, you don't even see him in a game.

Like, where is this kid? Now, outside the fact that he's 6'2", 6'3", as, as a 15-year-old, I, I don't see him making a [00:16:00] big impact in the game. And, and that's where I feel like the advisors or, or certain guys out there, or scouts for that matter, are just enamored with, with the size, the skill, the ability, but don't actually watch what's going on and how impactful he can be.

I'm not saying every 6'2", for those that are gonna fire off comments, every 6'2" guy is the same. I'm talking in general, I feel like the overall hockey IQ and the overall knowing how to play, which relates to m- maybe us being a little less structured in, in how we were raised and how we grew up, and spent a little bit more time just playing, right?

Like, how many times did you go to a rink and play with older guys? And the minute you play with older guys and they're calling you a puck hog because they're moving the puck around, and all of a sudden you're like, "Well, why'd they just call me a puck hog? I, I need to move the puck," right? And, and so I, I, I think you, you, you look at all that, yes, the kids are more prepared today, they're more focused.

[00:17:00] Um, but, but I also feel like Gretzky makes a great comment, like we've taken the creativity away from the game because we're so structured in what we want them to do and how we want them to do it, that, you know, we've taken a little bit away from the game.

Patrick Schafer: I agree. But also too, with that, um, do you remember when, when we were playing, it was like if you turn the puck over at the blue line, you didn't get it deep, you're sitting, right? Now these kids are allowed to make plays, right? And sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts you. You know what I mean? But like you said, that's allowing the, the creativity a little bit too, you know?

And then like you were saying with the 6'2", 6'3", all the sizes for that stuff too I saw a thing the other day, um, you remember Jeff Lurg? Little Lurg, Little Lurgy? So he used to come Little Lurgy. He played in Omaha two years before I got there. He's, he was 5'6". He won a national championship for Michigan State, I think it was 2006.

And everyone's like, "Too small, too small, too small, too small." He was the difference in [00:18:00] that game. And Melrose even said during it, he's like, "This is a player right here. This is the guy you want in the locker room." You

Marc Genest: Yeah. I just finished watching an interview with Rod Brind'Amour. You know, they were like you know, "W- what's... H- how do you explain how Stankoven can, can play the way he plays?" And all, all Rod pointed was his chest. Like, you, you can't, you can't evaluate heart. I mean, you can,

Patrick Schafer: You can't, yeah, you can't teach that. It's, it's gotta be, yeah. And also, the other thing that I love about Brenda Moore is like, I forget who said it. Someone was talking about, he's like, "Oh, it helps when your coach is a freak and in better shape than half the guys on the team."

Marc Genest: Yeah. That's how

Patrick Schafer: and he's running practice.

You know what I mean? Like,

Marc Genest: Well, Staals 37 years old, shows up to camp and, and, and, and runs, runs that camp in strength and all types of agilities, and the guy's fit. But you look at a guy like Stankoven, and in my era we had Theo Fleury, right? Like, we didn't have a lot [00:19:00] of small guys. If you weren't six feet, I mean, you had a tough time, man.

You had a tough time getting an opportunity, no matter how skilled you were, right? And I still feel like we, we, we get caught up, like the scouts get caught up on that. Like, Stankoven's the captain of Kamloops. I mean, the, the, the guy's been a phenom everywhere he's been. In Dallas he was great. He came to Carolina, big trade with Rantanen.

Comes here, makes an impact. I mean you can't, you can't tell me that just because he's 5'8 or 5'9, whatever size he is, um, he, he can't play. Like, that guy's impactful. Every game he's making stuff happen. He works his ass off constantly and, and can flat out shoot the puck. So I, I feel like, you know we, we still, we still get caught up.

And, and, and I think, you know, the game has grown and there's more teams. There's a lot of scouts out there that n- never played the game at a high level, yet they're making decisions based on size, [00:20:00] skill, and ability, not hockey sense, because it's a hard thing to identify, right? Like, how, how do you go to a USHL camp or a Null camp or a NCDC camp or a CCHL camp and the camp's over a weekend.

You mean to tell me that you have to assess all kinds of players over... You might have 80, 100 players over the weekend. You, you mean that you're gonna watch a kid and be able to tell me that he's got hockey IQ or doesn't have hockey IQ in a setting that's just about showing yourself off to those people, right?

Like, there is no structure, there is no forecheck, there is no defensive zone coverage. This is an absolute free-for-all, and whatever kid shows the best in that setting is the kid that's gonna get invited to, to training

Patrick Schafer: A- and you said it earlier too, so when you're going to one of those camps too, right, right? Like, are those guys paying attention to the details, right? Like we were just talking about the chips, little plays like that. Or are they just looking at the kid who's being a puck hog and they see him score a michigan or something like that?

[00:21:00] Like you know what I mean? Like, maybe they just pop their head and like, "Oh, who's that number 10 who just did that? Wow. Write it down." But like, did you watch him over the whole period of time, right? Like, that what you were doing? I mean,

Marc Genest: But, but, but honestly, Shafe, i- i- it's virtually impossible to watch 80 kids and be able to assess every 80 kid. And, and you and I n- know as well as anybody else that there's some kids that are there based on favors, pulling strings, and whatever else, so those guys might get a, a, a better opportunity.

But all that being said, it's, it's irrelevant. This is an opportunity for growth. You go to one of those main camps, you don't get selected to the All-Star game, yes, getting feedback would be important, but, but, but don't tell me that I'm not a good skater, because that's not it, right?

Like, and, and, and I don't wanna...

You know, we've had off-camera conversations, but m- my point is y- know, if, if I didn't make it, I didn't make it, it'd be great to have some feedback on what I need to do in order for me to get [00:22:00] better

Patrick Schafer: Yeah, 100%. Absolutely. And, and also too, like you said, y- it's, it's tough on those coaches, right? They're trying to do the best. They wanna help the kid, you know what I mean? For the good part. But it's, it's hard for them, like you said, to see everything. But I mean, again, also it goes back to, like, what I think helps the longevity of it.

Look, too, I mean still, Gretzky said it the other day, best player in the world, Sidney Crosby, by far, right? I mean, again, you look at what he does and you compare him to McDavid, who's flashier, right? But who's still... You look at the score sheet, he's got f- he's got four points. He didn't even notice half the time he was there, right?

But he's just a good person. He's a good teammate. Like, you know the fact of like, "Hey, I wanna keep Malkin. I wanna keep Letang. I wanna do those things." Like, that's, that's what it should be about, right? And those are the guys that just play forever, right? And like the guy, like he loves playing the game of hockey.

Like he, he just came off the Olympics where he was hurt, finished the playoffs, and then he comes and plays for the world championships. Like that's, that's just pure [00:23:00] leadership and the love of the game,

Marc Genest: [00:24:00] So, Shafe, this process that you go about to represent families and, and players, and, and, and for me the, the, the concept is all about the whole concept, right? The player and the family. 'Cause a l- m- the dynamics that go hand-in-hand, right? You can't just represent the player. Um, what, what do you look for?

'Cause I feel like this is a ... You know, I get a lot of families come to me, "Oh, man, I got this email the other day [00:25:00] about this advisor, blah, blah, blah." Um, you know, in a mass email and that kind of stuff. H- how do you go about m- making initial contact with your families? And I think it's a two-way street, too, right?

Like, I, I think you, you wanna ... You need to evaluate the family and the player to see if that's somebody that you wanna work with, too, because this is, this is personal. And, and, you know, it's not just business. It's personal. It's about you putting your reputation on the line to allow this player an opportunity to play at a higher level, right?

So

Patrick Schafer: Hundred percent?

Marc Genest: look for before you commit to working with a family?

Patrick Schafer: Well, I, I think first, like you said, I think one of the first questions is, like, you know, "I wanna do what's best for you. I wanna help," right? But also, we have to be realistic here, right? If, if you're a double A player and all you wanna do is get to... Um, a- and again, I, I'm just throwing terms and stuff like that out too, but say you just, y- you wanna go to a good school in the South, [00:26:00] you wanna go to Alabama and play club.

Absolutely, I can help you with that. What's the right path? Where do we go? What teams are we gonna be on, you know? But, but also, I can't call, you know, Ohio State or someone and say, "Hey, I need you to take this kid that is playing at a lower level." You know? I don't wanna name, like, leagues and stuff, but I, I can't do that, right?

And I think that self-awareness and then wanting to help and actually listening, too. Like, there's sometimes I think people will say, like, "Oh, well, I have an advisor, so that means that I get everything handed to me." No, it's, that's not how it works. Like, I can get you the opportunity, but then you've gotta go out and do it, right?

And I think sometimes they get pissed at me about, "Well, he's this, this, and this." And the one thing I will say, too, is I can't stand when, when parents compare their kids to other players, right? Everyone's, everyone's, everyone's different. Everyone has a different path. And you know what? If you're looking at a certain team or whatever, maybe you don't fit that need right there, you know what [00:27:00] I mean?

Marc Genest: you're, you're looking at a- another team to go to, but they're full on centers. So maybe there's no room. Maybe they're full on defense. Maybe they already have their two goalies. But I think what's important in, in what I took from what you just said is again, Stop and Starts was created is to help every player find their path, but you need to be realistic about what your path is, right?

And, and,

but, but you need help to get there. Like, there's still so many avenues, there's so many types of junior leagues that you can go gain experience. 'Cause man, I'm gonna tell you, for, for kids, just because you play double A and you'd like to go to Alabama,

Patrick Schafer: Yeah.

Marc Genest: hockey team.

Patrick Schafer: I know, I know. It's still hard to make it,

yeah.

Marc Genest: make the hockey team.

And, um, y- you

Patrick Schafer: I think, y- yeah, sorry Jenny, but also with that too is, like you said, you do need help, and that's where, like, I think again, there are some people that can just, you know, up and say... And ag- listen, again, I, I'm not saying I know everything. I'm not saying I was one of the best players, not any of those things.

But, like, [00:28:00] I was honest, worked hard, and that's what I'm gonna do for my, for my clients, right? 'Cause I think that's something that these people want. 'Cause other people, they'll just say, like, "Oh, you know, hey yeah, I, I'm an advisor today," and take your 3,000, 4,000, I don't even know what some of these guys charge now, and then don't answer your phone

Marc Genest: the range is, is 3,000 to 6,000 based on what I hear out there, what some of my families

Patrick Schafer: Yeah

Marc Genest: are talking about. I, I, I

Patrick Schafer: Yeah.

Marc Genest: the range.

Patrick Schafer: Yeah. I, but also too, I think, I think, like, with that, my point is, like, you want something that's actually gonna help you, and sometimes, like, might not be what you wanna hear, but, like, kind of a piece. You know what I mean? So,

Marc Genest: Yeah. And that's part of the interview process, right? That you go through with the families Shay. Like it's one thing to evaluate the player, but, you know, I, I think for me, you wanna be able to represent a good kid, a good family. Um, you know, so- somebody that accepts that. Like, when you give somebody [00:29:00] criticism and it's not what they wanna hear, that's a tough pill to swallow at times.

And a lot of times when you have those types of conversation, you get to determine what kind of people they are, right? And, and

Patrick Schafer: Well, there's, yeah, there's a couple too. Like honestly, if they go to a camp, it doesn't work out their way, they don't bitch, moan, and complain. They just say, "Okay, let's see what... Get us some feedback, see what we can do to fix it next time. Maybe it wasn't our time. Maybe it wasn't the right fit." You know what I mean?

Like, don't make a huge deal out of it. Just

Marc Genest: and you know, you just hit, you just hit on it, right? Like, there's a lot of factors that make it that, that have such a huge impact on whether you, you make it to the level that you wanna make it at, right? Like, the right time, the right place, a coach that likes you, that likes your personality, likes your style of play.

If you're a, a, a, a heavy player and the coach is all about skill players, that's not gonna be a good fit for you, right? Like, he's not g- he's not gonna be dialed into that kind of player. So a big bruising defenseman, if you're a puck-carrying defenseman, maybe he's like, "Ah, you know..." I mean [00:30:00] Bauer's been to a camp where the, the, the, the GM flat out says, "I don't want the defenseman carrying the puck."

And I'm sitting in the background just, I mean, I'm about to chew my running shoe, you know, because I'm like, "What are you talking about? You can't... You don't want a defenseman carrying the puck? It makes no sense," right? But that's, that's his prerogative, and, and he's the GM, he's in charge. He can make his decisions.

That's, that's, that's his thing. But

Patrick Schafer: And al- and also to,

yeah.

Marc Genest: a lot of players, right?

Patrick Schafer: No, absolutely. And, and to that too, one personal situation I had, right? So Marco Petrone again, great coach. Um, obviously you guys know him well. He's done a lot for Bauer, everything like that. When I was playing for him, he loved me, right? Like, I, I was one of his favorite players, right?

Um, self-proclaimed, I guess. But but he, he loved having me. But when I came back my second year, we had too many guys that were on contract, right? And so I couldn't fit. So instead of just sitting me and burying me, and he saw I was [00:31:00] getting frustrated, he made a trade and I went to Missouri, and a unbelievable situation when I, I think we won 13 in a row when I got there.

I think I had 14, 15 right there. Made a nice run. We lost to Fort Wayne. But, but again, that's a situation that, I mean, he's like, "Kev," I, I... He's like, "I don't know what to tell you. You're not doing anything wrong." He's like, "I just don't have room for you." You know? So everyone's got a boss, right, at some point.

So, like, these guys sometimes it's just not the right time or the right fit, you know?

Marc Genest: And, and again, everybody has a path, right? And your path led you to Missouri, and again, you were playing for a guy that gave a shit about you as a person and your career. Knew you were a good enough player, just didn't have any space for you where you were at. That's the key, man. I mean, you gotta put yourself in an environment where you're playing for people like that.

And unfortunately, just like the world today, I mean, there's crazy everywhere. But you gotta, you gotta really do a good job, you, good due diligence on finding a good program, [00:32:00] playing for a good coach that, that cares for you and wants the best for you. And, and I can't say that that's everywhere. And that's what I try to do for my players, right?

Like, um, I, I, I think it's so important for them to go to a place. Yes, some of my recommendations may not be the flashiest but I think at the end of the day, they're the good place for that player. And, and I've said it from day one, you know, the Mount St. Charles are great programs. The Shaddocks are great programs.

But man, they're not for everybody, you

Patrick Schafer: No. No. And, and also, also, also too, like without looking at it, I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, again, this is my job, right? This is your job, what we're talking about. But it's so amazing to be part of a game that, like you said, helps kids, helps them develop and everything like that too for the kids. So like, again, like go somewhere you're wanted.

Go somewhere you're gonna play. You don't wanna be miserable the whole time, right? Like, am I, am I gripping my stick too tight? Am I gonna... If I mess up here, am I gonna be out in the stand? You know what I mean? [00:33:00] Like, enjoy it. Enjoy the process 'cause you, I mean, you only get to do it so many times, right? And it's something to

Marc Genest: unless you're me and you're a 20-year-old and you think you can play pro hockey for the rest of your life, you know? Yeah

Patrick Schafer: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Well, exactly too. I mean, like it's just, it's just interesting. Like, it's, you know, enjoy it, right? It's a game, right? And, and also I think the other thing that is amazing about hockey is it teaches you so many lessons, right? Like, you have to move away from home, right, at some point, right?

You have to learn how to do your laundry. You live with your billets who become family. You know, you, you have to go through all these processes, right? Um, and also too, it's an interesting thing, it's not just with hockey, but if you look at, um, companies when they're hiring people, they always want student athletes because you have to learn how to work with a team.

You have to learn adversity. You have to... Time management, all those things that go in. I think that's something that hockey brings, um, that's completely different than any other sport

Marc Genest: Yeah, a ton of skill sets, right? Working with [00:34:00] teammates, working with a group. I mean, hockey's one of the sports that I think very seldom do you see a guy take the puck from coast to coast and bury it in, right? It just doesn't happen very often. Does it happen? Yeah, to some Bobby Orrs and Eric Carlsons and some of those guys, Cale Mackars every once in a while, for sure.

But, um, just-

Patrick Schafer: You know who did it? You know Jenny, you know who did it the other day, which I thought was awesome? Um, us- well, there's two things, actually. There's one, I'll send you a Crosby clip that's pretty unbelievable his leadership. But the other day Gaudreau blocked that shot, and then it, it came out of the zone and they went down and scored, right?

I think it made it 2-1 or, I think. But he comes back, like they're helping him getting on the bench. Everyone was just, even the guy that scored came down and patted him because

Marc Genest: Oh, yeah

Patrick Schafer: respect that he made the play, not that the guy got the back door and got the score. You know what I mean? Like I, I think that's, you know, something interesting, so.

Marc Genest: how important do you think it is to have an advisor in today's game for the young player?[00:35:00]

Patrick Schafer: I, I think, I think you need someone. I think you need someone in your corner, um, someone that's gonna just, just make a couple calls. Just make sure if you're at those camps that, you know, someone's in your ear to, to remind you that, "Hey, my guy's there. You might have missed him for one shift." And, you know, take a look at him.

That's all you want is a, a fair opportunity, right? And I think also what I, what I do with people is because the world's expensive now. We know that, right? And so also with people is, like, you know, you could have someone telling you, "Oh, come, come do this tournament with me. Come play this. Come do this camp."

You know what I mean? Like, I can help you manage what the time, the money, and also helping the kids, right? Like, some of these kids, like, in the summer, they just wanna take a break. They wanna go to the beach with their buddies, you know? They maybe wanna play baseball, right? I- all kind of different things.

But I think it's important to have someone there to give you some guidance, someone that's been through the process and knows what's going on with the new rules, right? Like, sometimes guys will be like, "Oh, I'm gonna go do this," and then they, you know, they're right off like, "Oh, well, I didn't know [00:36:00] that rule, so now I'm screwed.

I don't, I can't go here. I can't do this." And it's like, you know what I mean? So,

Marc Genest: And it is virtually impossible to keep up nowadays. I mean, the NCAA rule as far as eligibility goes changed overnight, right? Like, what

Patrick Schafer: yeah

Marc Genest: proposed and what was finalized, two different rules, two different guidelines.

Patrick Schafer: I mean, look at the North, sorry, look at the, look at the North American League rule, right? Like now guys, y- you know, like, so I had asked someone the other day was like, "Okay, so if you go, you know, to the BCHL, you're still allowed to come back to the NA, right? But you can't do the NCDC." You go through, you know what I mean?

All these different rules, and it's, it's

Marc Genest: Yeah. It's

Patrick Schafer: interesting, right? So

Marc Genest: interesting, and you need to be in the know. And, and the landscape's ever-changing, like, constantly. So how is a family supposed to keep up with all that while have their job, while raise their kids, and so on? So it's impossible. So how, how young, um, should a player seek out to have an advisor?

Like, how, how [00:37:00] young do you see would be a good time to, you know, seek out or hire or engage

Patrick Schafer: Yep. I think around 14, 15, 'cause y- you know, your U16 year is really important. That's when all the drafts start to come in, everything like that. But I think with the younger kids, right, like you wanna have time to develop, and where your path is starts at that age, right? To get where you need to be for the long term.

So I think around 14, 15 is kind of the, kind of the right time, and then, you know, I have you always the whole way through your whole career, you know?

So, so

Marc Genest: does a player need to be playing triple A at 14, 15 in order to seek out an advisor? Or do you think a double A player could maybe benefit from having an advisor?

Patrick Schafer: absolutely. Because as I'd mentioned earlier, um, I wanna help the kids that want help, right? So if you're a good person, you're a good family, like I can help you. But also maybe, maybe when someone's telling you, you know, maybe someone's a [00:38:00] gatekeeper in your hometown or something and keeping you from, from maybe moving up to a level.

Or, you know, someone saying, "Oh, well you're on this team." And it's like, no, why are you doing that when you're not playing? Instead of playing on, you know I don't know, the top 10 team in the country, maybe go play for the 50th, get more ice, get a better coach, develop. You know what I mean? Um, don't, don't spend

Marc Genest: Yeah. That, that

Patrick Schafer: to say you wear this, this name on your jersey,

Marc Genest: Exactly. Yeah. And again, right? It's about development, it's about growth, and just because you're playing double A as a 14-year-old doesn't mean that you don't have a chance to play hockey at a high level, maybe even play pro. I've seen it my whole life, even my last few years as a professional hockey player.

This was back in the day when Quinnipiac was a, a D3 program. You had Middlebury guys, you had, oh, gosh, I mean Jason Lammers head coach at Niagara. He was a D3 guy at Canisius. So I

Patrick Schafer: I played for a Lammy. I

Marc Genest: Yeah. And [00:39:00] so y- y- y- it doesn't really matter, right? Everybody develops at a different path and at a different time, and so you need to make sure that you're on the right path, and what's the right path for me, right?

I mean, I, I think that's where an advisor comes into play. Like, I, I did it for a lot of the kids that I coach, but I can't do it for everybody. I get calls all the time from families out of my district, "Hey, I, I've got, I've got an opportunity to go to Mount Saint Charles." I was like, "Okay, great." Like, "Let me take a little bit let me take a look at your video.

Let me do an analysis, and let me see, let me see what I think." I mean, it- that's why you're calling me. You want my opinion. But, you know, those places aren't always great for everybody. And I know every team needs depth, but does that depth hurt your development, is what I'm about and what my focus is on, right?

Patrick Schafer: Well, also too, I mean, think, think about that, what you're saying with the development, everything like that, okay? So let's, let's, we can switch this argument [00:40:00] or conversation here. So why do you think so many guys now that played major juniors wanna play Division I in the States? Like, look at Porter- yeah, look at Porter Martone.

Y- kid's a freak, don't get me wrong, right? But, like, he even said it too, it was like it took him a little bit to adapt early. It t- it took Gavin McKenna a little time to adapt early too, but they went through it, but now they're gonna be stronger when they go play in the NHL, and that's why guys that come out of there, those are guys that are ready to play.

They're, you know what I

Marc Genest: Right.

Patrick Schafer: They're, they're ready to go. And,

Marc Genest: And there used to be an old argument, right? College hockey, they only play 40 games if you make it pretty far. But man, you're in the gym every day, you're practicing every day. The development is, is incredible, right? And, and so I, I think there's no, there's no question that just because you're a CHL player, you still need to develop.

I mean, I, I get the Connor Bedards that are one and done and, and, and those types of players, but man, again, you're talking about generational players. I mean, this is not what [00:41:00] the makeup ... The, the NHL's not made up of just generational players. The NHL is made up of, like, three pools, like I said in my original bro- podcast.

You know, the 33s, the 33s, and the 33s. I mean, players continue to develop, continue to grow as hockey players, continue to get stronger, and that gives them an opportunity to maybe reach those goals at a later date, you know?

Patrick Schafer: And, and also too, when you're, when you're at honestly too, I, I think we're forgetting a little bit too how good Division III hockey is, right? And how good those programs are, right? And, and, and think about it too like that. Okay, are you gonna go to Division I school and maybe never play a game? Or you could go to, you know, a Babson and walk out of there with an unbelievable degree.

Hands down for me, I'd go there. You know what I mean? Um,

Marc Genest: And an opportunity to play, right?

Like, that's pretty cool.

Patrick Schafer: Yeah, absolutely.

Marc Genest: I said before, just because you played D3 doesn't mean that your professional career is over or you don't have a chance, or even U-Sports. You know, I'm a big U-Sports guy. Being from Canada, that hockey's phenomenal. Like, th- that's another path for certain players, you know?[00:42:00]

Patrick Schafer: Oh yeah. Yeah Yeah. And again, these are going back to your question too. I think this is what you need an advisor for is, you know, I always take the time to talk to my clients, right? That's one thing I always tell them. I'm like, "Hey, I'll always get back to you in 24 hours," right? Always in that situation.

But also, they need to have someone to talk to about these different things, right? And kind of make them understand, like, hey, like, it's fine if you go do this. It's fine. You know what I mean? Like, like even here, like I, I've got some kids that play pu- public school hockey and don't go to prep school.

Um, they still end up in a great spot. Um, Russell, who plays for Missouri, who I brought up earlier, he just committed to Babson. He didn't go through the junior process. So again, everyone has a different path, right? It's just what fits, what fits for you, so.

Marc Genest: I do always ask all my guests, you know, when I about Stop and Starts and, and your thoughts [00:43:00] when I brought it to your attention that I was doing this. I've, I've known you for a few years now, almost 10 years. Um, gosh, time flies and I'm just getting way older.

But anyway I wanna

know, curious-

Patrick Schafer: Bauer was 15 though, and now I look at him, I'm like, "Oh my God, kid's 20," you know?

So,

Marc Genest: but just curious to see what your thoughts are about when I told you what I was getting ready to do with Stop and Starts. I mean, obviously both you and Marco have had a big impact on, on my son's career. And, um, and you know, I, I, I made the call for you guys because I wanted to make sure you understood what this was about, what my concept was about, so that I didn't...

you didn't feel en- that I was encroaching in what you do. I, I'm not a placement guy. I'm not an advisor. I'm a consultant, when decisions come to where they need an advisor, then obviously I refer to guys like yourself. But what was your initial, um feedback or your thoughts when I brought [00:44:00] this idea of Stop and Starts to you?

Patrick Schafer: I thought it was a great idea. Um, and, and I, I was excited when you asked me to do the podcast. I was like, "When are we doing it? I can't wait to get on there," because I think you ask g- you ask good questions, right? And it's going back to you care about the guys, right? And I think it's something that you're creating, and also I think it's it's tough, too, right?

Because, like, you, you have to look at it, too, and say, "Okay, I- I'm just... I'm here to help the kids," right? And some people are gonna say, don't like this guy. He's an ass. He's doing this, this, and this," but it's like you're actually doing it for the right reason. I think that's why we need more people out there than someone just tell you, "Oh, I think you should do this 'cause I said so."

Marc Genest: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And again, for me, for me, I think one of the things that, like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of questions that arise. You, you place a kid, he's, you know, going to a, a, a, playing on a junior team, and he's just struggling. Like, I'm, I'm somebody they can call and I can help him through the struggle, right?

Which, again, for guys like [00:45:00] yourself, you guys are busy finding the next spot and the next landing spot and, and the next destination for the player, and that takes a lot of work. And, and sometimes just a 25, 30-minute conversation just to get a kid out of a funk is, is huge, and that's where our stop and starts kinda come in.

We kinda play off each other a little bit. Um, I, I'm more of a, a, a, a gap-fill kinda guy. My experience and, and, um... So yeah, I, I'm excited. I'm

ex- that you were really, um, you know happy about the process and, and really excited about what we were doing here

Patrick Schafer: Also, Jenny, too, going back to it, I mentioned earlier, right? We're talking about the details, right? Like a chip behind or something like that. Maybe that's something that, you know, the coach doesn't have time to do during film session, right? 'Cause they gotta run down systems. They gotta be looking at who's next.

You know what I mean? So then if you want someone that knows the game and someone that's gonna give you those details, I think it's perfect, you

Marc Genest: Yeah. And [00:46:00] even with my own son, you know, or my daughter. "Well, the coach wants me to do that." No, I, I get that, and I'm not telling you not to do that. I'm just telling you that it's not that or nothing. I'm just telling you that there's an opportunity for you to read and react the play a little bit better, stay within the conf- confines of his structure, but, but there's also a loose puck here, right?

Or there's also a gray area here that you need to manage, and you need to be the player that can adapt and adjust, right, by reading and reacting. So-

Patrick Schafer: And, and there's a difference between being an asshole when you say something to your coach or just asking a question, right? Like, you know what I mean? Like, if I came to you, I'm like, "Okay, I understand why you want me to do this, but here was my thought process. Here's why I think we should do this." You might be like, "I didn't think of that."

Okay. You know what I mean? And

Marc Genest: saw

Patrick Schafer: yeah.

Marc Genest: a player you'll see the game a little differently, right?

Patrick Schafer: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and I'm-- for me, I'd rather someone tell me, like, you know, I think the other part is just, again, being self-aware. Like [00:47:00] gotta know, right? Like, where they're at, you know what I mean? So, but th-thank, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it

Marc Genest: I just wanna thank you for your time. I know you're busy and you got a lot of stuff going. You've got the NAL draft coming this week. Just had the Q draft, so you got a lot of things going on. I appreciate you taking the time to speak with us here at Stop and Starts. This has been great.

Um, yeah, appreciate your time. Thanks, Shay.

Patrick Schafer: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it