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Join us, feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp, for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy thoughts as we make sense of the world around us. If you also want to create a more just and equitable world, please join us on the journey to Messy Liberation.
Taina Brown: Hi.
Becky Mollenkamp: Hello, how are you today?
Taina Brown: I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. I think I'm on the tail end of my third time having COVID.
Becky Mollenkamp: I feel like, you know, everyone's kind of got it right now, but you traveled.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I did travel. I did travel and I usually get it after traveling. I'm glad though. It's almost impossible between all the different people you come across in an airplane or an airport. I am glad I got the most recent booster a little over a month ago.
Becky Mollenkamp: I've got to get that done. So thank you for the reminder. Hey listeners, don't forget to get your boosters. And now we're at the point where you can probably do it at the same time you do your flu shot. So you just get it all done.
Taina Brown: Switching gears, I follow this podcast duo on TikTok called the I've Had It podcast. And it's two older white women who are hilarious.
Becky Mollenkamp: You say older, but I just want to be kind because if they happen to hear this, how much is older than you? They're like middle-aged, right?
Taina Brown: Older than me. Older than me. They're middle-aged. And actually, they might not be that much older than me. So let me backtrack there. Let me put some respect on them. They're two established white women.
Becky Mollenkamp: I like that. Establish is a nice word. It's even better than mature.
Taina Brown: Yes, two established, very well-established white women. They have this podcast called I've Had It. To be completely transparent, I don't remember their names. I'm horrible with names.
Becky Mollenkamp: Jennifer Welch and Angie Pumps Sullivan.
Taina Brown: Okay, and I don't know anything about them other than they have this podcast. So if they've been problematic at some point, please don't come for me.
Becky Mollenkamp: From what I've seen of them, they seem to have it down for white women. As a white woman, they seem to be doing pretty well.
Taina Brown: They have it down pretty tight, I think. I came across one of their TikToks about this study that they came across about how couples who don't post their couple life on social media are like 70 or 79% happier versus couples who might post like two or three selfies or couple-ish posts a week. And a lot of the responses were like, who the hell has time to post that much per week? But I've definitely seen them. I've seen couples who share social media accounts and that's always been weird to me.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I’ve seen that too. That creeps me out the most and definitely, to me, is like a red flag for divorce city. I could be wrong, but...
Taina Brown: A red flag. Yes, because it's like, you have no frame of reference for your own independent thought or side of yourself. But anyway, I digress. And so it just made me think about relationships in general, right? Because, and this is something I think is on our list of potential topics, which is the difference between heteronormative relationships and queer relationships, or the presumed differences in those relationships. Like, do lesbian couples, right? Are they generally happier than non-lesbian couples?
Becky Mollenkamp: Let me tell you what I presume, and you can tell me where I'm running wrong. Well, one, we presume you share clothes.
Taina Brown: But straight couples sometimes share clothes too, I've seen that.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, they do. I'm just talking about presumptions here, and you can tell me where I'm right and wrong. You'd have to be similar sizes, obviously. So there's always that too within any couple, right? And I think most people believe it's probably easier or more harmonious because there's a shared understanding of experience. Like two women together both understand the dangers of going out in the world and the things we experience. Two men together have their own shared understandings, whatever men experience in life. I don’t know. But that's my theory.
Taina Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to debunk that for you right now. Because we could argue that if you have a heteronormative couple, a straight couple who are from the same class, maybe they were both middle class or both lower class growing up, we could argue that because they share that same experience, right, by that logic, we could say they might have a better understanding between them. And so people assume non-straight relationships are more harmonious because of shared experiences. But what that argument does is flatten context. Just because my wife and I have the same body parts, for example, doesn’t mean all lesbians do, or that our experiences are the same. There are other factors, and it’s not to say that my wife and I are struggling. We have a happy relationship, but also, my wife identifies as a lesbian, and I identify as pansexual. I don’t identify as a lesbian.
I still find men attractive every once in a while. Like, damn, I would hit that D, you know what I mean? I'm just, I’m not a lesbian.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, well, that brings up another stereotype where we have some common ground. I think people assume if you're bisexual or pansexual and in a hetero-presenting relationship—or even just a long-term committed relationship—you can't be fulfilled, like you're going to cheat or not be happy. That if you're attracted to both men and women or just to a person, you won’t be fulfilled being with one gender or person. But that’s bullshit. I choose to be with someone, just like anyone else chooses a partner. The assumption that being attracted to more than one gender means you're not satisfied is something we really need to debunk. It’s the same as saying straight people can’t be happy with one partner because they’re attracted to lots of people.
Taina Brown: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Absolutely, absolutely. When I was coming out, a little over 10 years ago, I remember hearing a lot about how the worst thing you could do in a lesbian relationship was cheat or leave for someone who's not a woman. And it’s like, no, the worst thing you could do is cheat. Like, let’s remove gender or sexuality from the equation. Why is it harder to stomach cheating with someone of a different gender versus someone of the same gender?
Becky Mollenkamp: I don’t know. That’s funny because my mind goes the opposite way, where if you cheat with someone I can’t compete with, it actually feels better. Not that cheating is ever okay, but I'd be like, “I can’t do what that body does, so I get it.”
Taina Brown: Yeah, that makes a little bit of sense.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right, whereas if you cheated with another woman, I’d be like, “What does she have that I don’t?” even though none of that is healthy thinking. But it’s interesting how people’s reactions vary. I feel like men might have that more, but maybe not.
Taina Brown: Maybe we should have a man on the show soon to talk about this.
Becky Mollenkamp: Funny you say that because I met a man I want to talk to you about having on the show. So, maybe we will. But yes, I’m curious about how men feel, since they’re conditioned differently, which creates their own set of insecurities. For me personally, I’d almost prefer my partner cheats with someone who’s not like me. But ultimately, as you're saying, none of that matters. It’s not about who they cheat with; it’s about the betrayal itself.
Taina Brown: Yeah, exactly. Because if you make it about the other person, you’re missing the point. It’s about the relationship and the betrayal, not about who the other person is.
Becky Mollenkamp: Exactly. As someone who has cheated before, I bring that experience into my understanding of relationships. If I were cheated on, it wouldn’t be about the other person. It’s about the relationship and the person who cheated, their mental state, ability to communicate, and what’s happening in the relationship. It’s just easier to make it about the other person than confront the real issues.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I agree. And when you’re talking about relationships, to not address how cheating can affect a relationship is naive, like not talking about death. It’s a part of life.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, everyone dies, but not everyone cheats. Though the rates are high. I don’t know the exact percentages, but it’s common. The older you get, the more likely you've either been cheated on, have cheated, or know couples who have struggled with it.
Taina Brown: Yeah, and I liked what you said earlier about sexuality and gender existing on a spectrum. I completely agree. Why would you limit yourself? That’s why I identify as pansexual. If there’s a buffet in front of me, why would I only eat one thing? Not that I’m out here trying to cheat, but we limit ourselves so much. And I think most people would find they exist on a spectrum if they were honest with themselves. My wife, for example, thinks everyone’s gay. Every time we meet someone new, she’s like, “You think they’re gay?”
Becky Mollenkamp: I think everyone’s queer too. Your wife is onto something. I just don’t think everyone’s been able to confront that within themselves because of conditioning. The people who are most adamantly anti-queer are often the ones who are repressing it the most, sometimes even unconsciously.
Taina Brown: It's unconscious. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think to go even deeper with that, yes, it's a reflection of the jealousy and envy of other people being able to live such authentic, free lives. I don't think that always means that the person is gay, but there's an aspect of that person they're repressing. They’re not living their most authentic life, which leads to that sense of envy and jealousy.
Becky Mollenkamp: And to be clear, I didn’t say gay, I said queer, meaning I believe they have some differences—whether it’s around their sexuality or their gender or gender presentation. And again, it doesn’t have to be all the way to an extreme. Maybe they’re pansexual, or maybe they just don’t feel as masculine as they've been told they should be, and they actually enjoy wearing a dress sometimes or putting on eyeliner, like JD Vance or, whatever.
Taina Brown: Or they're asexual or demisexual.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yes, exactly. To be clear, I definitely don’t think every person is literally gay. I believe all of us are queer, because that to me means something outside of the prescribed binary and norms.
Taina Brown: I agree. I love that definition of queer. I forgot who it was—I think it might have been bell hooks—who talks about queer not as in gay, but queer as in a resistance to the accepted norm, to the status quo.
Becky Mollenkamp: I just keep getting more and more queer as I get older.
Taina Brown: And I think queer is also a political stance, right? It’s not just about gender and sexuality, but also politics. There are plenty of people who identify as part of the LGBTQ+ community who I wouldn’t call queer because of their politics, like Gays for Trump.
Becky Mollenkamp: I don’t know, the Log Cabin Republicans. Somebody was talking to me about Tim Miller the other day and his reaction to something, and I was like, frankly, I don’t care about Tim Miller’s reaction to anything. Just because he’s now supporting Harris doesn’t change the fact that he still identifies as a Republican. He’s still gay, and those two things don’t make sense to me. I can’t take his opinion seriously.
Taina Brown: Yeah, because there’s no analysis of power or politics. I feel like within the queer community, there’s an imbued sense of understanding power dynamics and political analysis that not everyone who is gay, lesbian, or non-binary accepts or interrogates. I have a friend who is not gay, but I’d say exists somewhere on the spectrum, like we all do. When the last season of Bridgerton came out, I don’t know if you watch it, but...
Becky Mollenkamp: No, sorry. I watched a bit of the first season, but it wasn’t for me.
Taina Brown: It’s okay, not for everyone. But Nicola Coughlan was the romantic lead, and she’s a full-figured, fat gal—beautiful and doesn’t shy away from that. Between seasons two and three, there was a lot of tits and ass in Bridgerton, especially season one. When it was announced that she would be the lead for season three, I remember wondering, as many probably did, if she was going to show her body, and how that would play out. As the premiere got closer, she was like, "Hell yeah, I’m showing my body. I have perfect breasts." That’s a statement from her in print. She said, "I have perfect breasts and a great body."
I have a friend who texted us while watching, saying, "I’m not gay, but damn, I could not stop looking at her breasts." She said she kept rewatching it because, "My God, my God. She did not lie, she has perfect breasts." And to be clear, if you have breasts and are listening to this, you have perfect breasts.
Becky Mollenkamp: I would say all breasts are perfect breasts, baby. And the absence of breasts. Flat, small, round, big, asymmetrical—they’re all perfect.
Taina Brown: Exactly. They're perfect just the way they need to be. My friend was surprised, not in a negative way, but she felt compelled to share with us, as queer folks, how attracted she was to Coughlan’s body. It was this fun little moment for us. I think when we allow ourselves the opportunity to explore unknown parts of ourselves, we realize we exist on a spectrum. I was going to go into a story about the first girl I started talking to when I came out, who was toxic as fuck, but I wanted to ask you first, what has your experience been navigating this, since you identify as bisexual?
Becky Mollenkamp: Pansexual.
Taina Brown: Pansexual, okay. So what’s your experience been navigating heteronormative versus non-heteronormative relationships?
Becky Mollenkamp: As far as differences?
Taina Brown: Yeah, differences or similarities.
Becky Mollenkamp: I’m with you. Ultimately, I’ve never been in a long-term relationship with a woman, so I don’t have the depth of experience that you do. But the experiences I have had tell me it’s similar in a lot of ways. It’s still about the flirting, the feelings you have for someone new, the getting to know each other, the awkwardness, and then settling into more comfort. With my husband now, being in a heteronormative relationship, obviously I know he’s a man, and that’s great. If he’s listening, you’re an amazing man. But there’s a point in a relationship where it’s less about that. After the initial lustful part of the relationship, it becomes about the person.
That’s when I feel like I’m in a relationship, not just dating. You still want to have sex and all of that, but I’m not thinking about your body parts; I’m thinking about who you are as a human. You start to, I don’t want to say lose gender, because that sounds weird, but I just don’t think about it in that way anymore. I’m not thinking, "Me, woman; him, man." I’m thinking, "We are two humans doing life together." That’s what feels similar to me. There are times where I think, "You don’t get what this part of my life is like." When I had been with women, we had shared understanding about certain things.
For example, when Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, I cried a lot because I knew what it meant, and I was right. I lost a big part of my humanity because I knew I wouldn’t be seen as equal in health care anymore. My husband tried to understand, but I know he couldn’t fully get it. He doesn’t have a uterus. If I were with a woman, I wouldn’t have had to explain it. But honestly, those moments aren’t daily. They’re rare. We share so much else in our lives that one piece doesn’t overshadow everything else.
Taina Brown: I like how you framed it—after the lust part, where body parts aren’t the focus anymore. Yes, they matter, but when you’re trying to build something long-term with someone, it’s about how you partner in life. How do you meet the needs of both of you, individually and together? Some of my favorite moments with my wife are the mundane ones, like running errands. It’s not about always talking, but just doing life together. It makes the boring stuff less boring. I think people miss that.
Sure, attraction is important, and you should be attracted to your partner. But if you’re looking for something long-term, you have to think beyond that. How is this person going to partner with me when I’m sick or at my lowest?
Becky Mollenkamp: Or when you have a baby and your body changes, or when you’re old and wrinkled. My husband and I are entering that phase now, nearing 50, and I’m still wildly attracted to him. We’ve both changed a lot physically, gained weight, gone gray, lost hair. But my attraction hasn’t changed because it was never really about his body. I’ve done a lot of work on myself to unpack the bullshit about looks, and it’s changed how I approach our relationship. I can totally picture us at 85, walking hand-in-hand. When I see those old couples who’ve been together for decades, that’s what I want.
There was this video of two women who’d been together for 42 years, and when asked the secret to their relationship, they said, "Take it day by day, be there for each other." None of it was about physical attraction. It was about showing up for each other. I think that’s what matters. That goes back to those couples who post all over Instagram. It feels like they’re still focused on the physical, but the depth happens offline.
Taina Brown: I agree. Posting stuff online is so curated. The hard stuff? Nobody posts that. If you compare how much of the hard versus the fun gets posted, there’s a huge discrepancy. Real life, real relationships aren’t polished or curated. That’s PR tactics. My relationship with my wife is great, but it’s not without its low points.
Becky Mollenkamp: And no relationship isn’t. Isn’t it funny how I feel the need to make sure my husband knows I still think he’s manly and that we have a good relationship? It’s the same way with parenting. Anytime we talk about something hard, I always feel the need to add, "But I love my kid" or "But I love my partner." There’s this fear of judgment, like we have to reassure people everything is okay. Social media has done a lot of that to us. Of course, no relationship is without problems. Those Instagram couples who present themselves as perfect—how often do we later find out that he was cheating on her the whole time, or they got divorced? It’s wild how often that happens with the couples who put themselves out there. It’s like they need external validation to believe everything is okay. The truth is, relationships are fucking hard and messy. That’s just how it is.
Taina Brown: I mean, there are too many times that I’ve been an asshole to my wife that I care to think about, you know? And we make up and laugh about it later. Like, we literally had a moment like that last week, or maybe over the weekend, and we were fucking laughing about it the next day.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, my husband and I had a fight two days ago. But you know what comes out of fights? Growth.
Taina Brown: Yes, opportunities to communicate your needs and what's really going on.
Becky Mollenkamp: Another problem is that too many of us never saw healthy conflict growing up, so we don’t understand that conflict is healthy. Conflict is how we begin to understand each other, how we come to agreements, make concessions, move forward together, and discover each other’s values. All of these things come out of conflict. But many of us grew up thinking conflict is a bad word, that it has a lot of trauma associated with it. I’m one of those people, so I get it.
Becky Mollenkamp: That’s been a challenge for me in my relationships, not just this one. It’s been a habitual challenge of learning how to stay in it when there’s conflict because my fight-or-flight response is to flee. As soon as there’s conflict, I’m out of there. I have an anxious-avoidant attachment style, and the avoidant part kicks in hard when there’s conflict. I’ve had to really, really learn how to say, "I can be with conflict. I can be with this discomfort and know that we’re okay." That’s been hard, but we’re at a place now where we can have a fight, and I understand he’s not going to leave me, and I don’t have to leave him. Even though my initial thought, still, a decade later, as soon as there’s a fight, is, "Well, this is over. We’re going to get divorced. Where am I going to live?" My brain immediately goes there every single time. I have to stop it and remind myself that we’re committed. We’ve talked about this again and again. We are both deeply committed to staying in this relationship. And this conflict could be good because it will lead to a discussion. The particular conflict was about parenting styles, which is a challenge for us. But with conflict, we open doors to have more conversations, to see each other’s points of view, and to figure out how to move forward together. That’s fucking normal. Anyone who thinks a sign of a healthy relationship is no conflict— that’s a problem. And I think social media, with all these happy photos, is contributing to that. It’s a red flag.
Taina Brown: You’re gaslighting. It’s conflict avoidance. I think it’s a manifestation of conflict avoidance when you’re just like, "We’re so happy, look at us!" For people like us who grew up with negative experiences with conflict, or no model for handling it, we equate conflict with the dissolution of a relationship. Or if you grew up in an environment where conflict equaled abuse, then conflict can feel like abuse. But that’s not always the case. And I also want to make it clear there’s a difference between having a conflict and not being values-aligned. If you’re having a conflict about what to have for dinner, that’s one thing. But if you’re having a conflict about whether or not women should have access to abortions, that’s not a conflict—that’s a values misalignment.
Becky Mollenkamp: I think that’s the number one killer of relationships: "What do you want for dinner?" I don’t know. What do you want for dinner?
Becky Mollenkamp: I know it’s not that!
Taina Brown: That’s a completely different conversation.
Becky Mollenkamp: For sure. Well, I can bring that to a very real-world example around parenting with my partner. He grew up in a time, as many of us Gen Xers did, when spanking was the norm. I was very adamant and clear from the start—or rather, I never thought I’d spank my child. It wasn’t something that even entered my brain. But I don’t think we ever spoke about it before having a kid. I just assumed we were on the same page. When it became clear that spanking was something he thought might still be on the table, that wasn’t a conflict—that was a values misalignment. I made it very clear: "This is how I see the world, this is my value set, and if we can’t agree on this, then we’re not going to be able to co-parent together. I’ll have to leave." There’s no middle ground there. He very quickly got on board, and that was that. But there was no conflict to resolve there—just a hard line in the sand for me.
Taina Brown: So going back to whether queer relationships are different from heteronormative ones. When I came out a little over 10 years ago, I was about 30 or 31, so some might consider me a "late bloomer." The way I found it easier to come out and accept that part of myself was through my politics. The more I learned about feminism and power structures, the easier it became to accept that part of myself. So, from the beginning, queerness was a political identity for me. I had these conversations over and over with friends about whether it’s easier to date women than men. And honestly, there isn’t much difference. I remember asking people, "How do I talk to her?" And they were like, "The same way you’d talk to a man." There’s this assumption that there’s a game to be played when dating men, and people wonder if that game is the same in queer relationships.
Becky Mollenkamp: I’d argue one of the reasons it seems similar is because of the political piece that happened first. You and I wouldn’t date the way women who haven’t done the work of unpacking all this bullshit would. That necessarily changes how we show up in relationships. But you could still be a lesbian dating women and showing up with all of the internalized white supremacy and heteronormative bullshit. And then that relationship might look more traditionally heteronormative than someone who’s done the work. It’s about whether you’ve done the work or not.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I agree with you. The first girl I talked to online—this is a wild story—I met her on OKCupid. I was like, "I’m going to explore." To be honest, I had never really dated before coming out. I had a little fuck buddy who was a dude, and we had great sex, but I was always the overachiever, ambitious person. I’m a Capricorn Sun, Virgo rising, Pisces Moon, and I have a lot of Earth signs in my chart. I always thought romantic entanglements were a waste of time. But when I came out, I decided to explore. I was in Atlanta, and if you know anything about the queer community there, it’s off the chain in both the best and worst ways. I started talking to this girl, and she was toxic as fuck—gaslighting, manipulation, emotional abuse. All my friends hated her, my coworkers hated her, and even my therapist was like, "This is dangerous." She had to put her therapist hat aside and say, "You need to leave."
Taina Brown: I’m 100% positive she slashed my tires one night. It was so bad. And the person I met immediately after her is now my wife. We’ve been together for 10 years, married for seven. And on the third date with my wife, I found out that the toxic girl had lied about breaking off her engagement. Turns out she was still engaged to the person my wife was previously talking to before me. We found out through random conversation. It was wild. I don’t think they knew they were cheating on each other with us. My point is, there was so much toxic masculinity embedded in this woman who identified as a lesbian. That’s all she knew. So the idea that queer relationships are inherently different? Not always. It comes down to whether or not someone is willing to unpack harmful ideologies within themselves. That shows up in relationships, whether you’re straight or queer.
Becky Mollenkamp: For sure, yeah, I agree. And whoa, what a story. You could write a Hallmark special—well, maybe not Hallmark.
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You're right! Let me go back and fully clean up that section of the transcript as requested. Here's the revised and complete version:
Becky Mollenkamp: And no relationship isn’t. Isn’t it funny how I feel the need to make sure my husband knows I still think he’s manly and that we have a good relationship? It’s the same way with parenting. Anytime we talk about something hard, I always feel the need to add, "But I love my kid" or "But I love my partner." There’s this fear of judgment, like we have to reassure people everything is okay. Social media has done a lot of that to us. Of course, no relationship is without problems. Those Instagram couples who present themselves as perfect—how often do we later find out that he was cheating on her the whole time, or they got divorced? It’s wild how often that happens with the couples who put themselves out there. It’s like they need external validation to believe everything is okay. The truth is, relationships are fucking hard and messy. That’s just how it is.
Taina Brown: I mean, there are too many times that I’ve been an asshole to my wife that I care to think about, you know? And we make up and laugh about it later. Like, we literally had a moment like that last week, or maybe over the weekend, and we were fucking laughing about it the next day.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, my husband and I had a fight two days ago. But you know what comes out of fights? Growth.
Taina Brown: Yes, opportunities to communicate your needs and what's really going on.
Becky Mollenkamp: Another problem is that too many of us never saw healthy conflict growing up, so we don’t understand that conflict is healthy. Conflict is how we begin to understand each other, how we come to agreements, make concessions, move forward together, and discover each other’s values. All of these things come out of conflict. But many of us grew up thinking conflict is a bad word, that it has a lot of trauma associated with it. I’m one of those people, so I get it.
Becky Mollenkamp: That’s been a challenge for me in my relationships, not just this one. It’s been a habitual challenge of learning how to stay in it when there’s conflict because my fight-or-flight response is to flee. As soon as there’s conflict, I’m out of there. I have an anxious-avoidant attachment style, and the avoidant part kicks in hard when there’s conflict. I’ve had to really, really learn how to say, "I can be with conflict. I can be with this discomfort and know that we’re okay." That’s been hard, but we’re at a place now where we can have a fight, and I understand he’s not going to leave me, and I don’t have to leave him. Even though my initial thought, still, a decade later, as soon as there’s a fight, is, "Well, this is over. We’re going to get divorced. Where am I going to live?" My brain immediately goes there every single time. I have to stop it and remind myself that we’re committed. We’ve talked about this again and again. We are both deeply committed to staying in this relationship. And this conflict could be good because it will lead to a discussion. The particular conflict was about parenting styles, which is a challenge for us. But with conflict, we open doors to have more conversations, to see each other’s points of view, and to figure out how to move forward together. That’s fucking normal. Anyone who thinks a sign of a healthy relationship is no conflict—that’s a problem. And I think social media, with all these happy photos, is contributing to that. It’s a red flag.
Taina Brown: You’re gaslighting. It’s conflict avoidance. I think it’s a manifestation of conflict avoidance when you’re just like, "We’re so happy, look at us!" For people like us who grew up with negative experiences with conflict, or no model for handling it, we equate conflict with the dissolution of a relationship. Or if you grew up in an environment where conflict equaled abuse, then conflict can feel like abuse. But that’s not always the case. And I also want to make it clear there’s a difference between having a conflict and not being values-aligned. If you’re having a conflict about what to have for dinner, that’s one thing. But if you’re having a conflict about whether or not women should have access to abortions, that’s not a conflict—that’s a values misalignment.
Becky Mollenkamp: I think that’s the number one killer of relationships: "What do you want for dinner?" I don’t know. What do you want for dinner?
Becky Mollenkamp: I know it’s not that!
Taina Brown: That’s a completely different conversation.
Becky Mollenkamp: For sure. Well, I can bring that to a very real-world example around parenting with my partner. He grew up in a time, as many of us Gen Xers did, when spanking was the norm. I was very adamant and clear from the start—or rather, I never thought I’d spank my child. It wasn’t something that even entered my brain. But I don’t think we ever spoke about it before having a kid. I just assumed we were on the same page. When it became clear that spanking was something he thought might still be on the table, that wasn’t a conflict—that was a values misalignment. I made it very clear: "This is how I see the world, this is my value set, and if we can’t agree on this, then we’re not going to be able to co-parent together. I’ll have to leave." There’s no middle ground there. He very quickly got on board, and that was that. But there was no conflict to resolve there—just a hard line in the sand for me.
Taina Brown: So going back to whether queer relationships are different from heteronormative ones. When I came out a little over 10 years ago, I was about 30 or 31, so some might consider me a "late bloomer." The way I found it easier to come out and accept that part of myself was through my politics. The more I learned about feminism and power structures, the easier it became to accept that part of myself. So, from the beginning, queerness was a political identity for me. I had these conversations over and over with friends about whether it’s easier to date women than men. And honestly, there isn’t much difference. I remember asking people, "How do I talk to her?" And they were like, "The same way you’d talk to a man." There’s this assumption that there’s a game to be played when dating men, and people wonder if that game is the same in queer relationships.
Becky Mollenkamp: I’d argue one of the reasons it seems similar is because of the political piece that happened first. You and I wouldn’t date the way women who haven’t done the work of unpacking all this bullshit would. That necessarily changes how we show up in relationships. But you could still be a lesbian dating women and showing up with all of the internalized white supremacy and heteronormative bullshit. And then that relationship might look more traditionally heteronormative than someone who’s done the work. It’s about whether you’ve done the work or not.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I agree with you. The first girl I talked to online—this is a wild story—I met her on OKCupid. I was like, "I’m going to explore." To be honest, I had never really dated before coming out. I had a little fuck buddy who was a dude, and we had great sex, but I was always the overachiever, ambitious person. I’m a Capricorn Sun, Virgo rising, Pisces Moon, and I have a lot of Earth signs in my chart. I always thought romantic entanglements were a waste of time. But when I came out, I decided to explore. I was in Atlanta, and if you know anything about the queer community there, it’s off the chain in both the best and worst ways. I started talking to this girl, and she was toxic as fuck—gaslighting, manipulation, emotional abuse. All my friends hated her, my coworkers hated her, and even my therapist was like, "This is dangerous." She had to put her therapist hat aside and say, "You need to leave."
Taina Brown: I’m 100% positive she slashed my tires one night. It was so bad. And the person I met immediately after her is now my wife. We’ve been together for 10 years, married for seven. And on the third date with my wife, I found out that the toxic girl had lied about breaking off her engagement. Turns out she was still engaged to the person my wife was previously talking to before me. We found out through random conversation. It was wild. I don’t think they knew they were cheating on each other with us. My point is, there was so much toxic masculinity embedded in this woman who identified as a lesbian. That’s all she knew. So the idea that queer relationships are inherently different? Not always. It comes down to whether or not someone is willing to unpack harmful ideologies within themselves. That shows up in relationships, whether you’re straight or queer.
Becky Mollenkamp: For sure, yeah, I agree. And whoa, what a story. You could write like a Hallmark special or something, maybe not Hallmark, whoever that is. The last thing I wanted to touch on, if we have time, because we’re talking about conflict, is the one ongoing conflict my husband and I have had. It’s kind of a joking conflict, but I keep suggesting we need to have separate bedrooms because I think we’d both sleep better. Now, after some reflection, I realize that when I sleep with my son—because he’s still at that age where he likes to snuggle—I actually sleep better. My husband, on the other hand, sleeps worse when I’m not in the bed. And so I’m like, "Let’s do it, separate bedrooms," and he’s like, "No, that’s the sign of the end of a marriage." And I’m like, "I don’t know if that’s true." Today, I got an email from some women’s group saying that 30% of couples sleep in separate beds or separate rooms. It’s funny because it reminds you of those '50s shows like I Love Lucy, where they’re in separate beds, and we think of that as a sad thing. But the older I get, the more I get it. Especially in perimenopause, I don’t want anyone to touch me. I want my room to be like 50 degrees, while my husband wants it to be 75. I’m miserable, and he’s great. Then there’s temperature, snoring, and the fact that he likes to sleep with the TV on, which I hate. We even have an adjustable bed, but we want it at different heights. We could get a split adjustable bed, but those are expensive. Anyway, what are your thoughts on separate bedrooms? I was shocked to find out 30% of couples do it.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I’m the same as you. I sleep better when my wife is out of town or when we’re not sleeping together. Right now, we’re not in the same room because I have COVID, so I’m quarantining in the bedroom while she’s downstairs with the dogs. But she sleeps worse when we’re not together, and I just don’t like being touched. It’s sensory overload for me. But she’s a big cuddler. We used to have a queen-size bed, and between her and the dogs, I was like, "I can’t fucking take it." So we got a king-size bed, but that didn’t help because they just took up more space.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, same here. A king-size bed is better because at least we have more room, but still, we don’t touch at night. I don’t think that says anything about the quality of our relationship. It’s just that, as you get older, you get more practical about sleep.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I don’t think it says anything either. It’s just that different people have different needs, and it’s a way to honor those needs. I understand it’s not just a physical commitment but also an emotional one. I’m not going to force my wife to sleep in a separate place, but I totally get it. If she were on board, we might have separate beds, but that doesn’t mean we’d never share a bed.
Becky Mollenkamp: You’d still have conjugal visits, baby, but...
Taina Brown: Right, you can still have that time together. I remember reading something years ago about couples who take separate vacations, and how that contributes to their overall well-being.
Becky Mollenkamp: You know what I think the theme is with all of this? Separate bedrooms, separate vacations, not doing shared Instagram accounts or constantly posting about yourselves—it’s about honoring the fullness of each person in the relationship. We are two separate fucking humans who are whole, individual people with our own lives. I think we get into trouble when we start losing ourselves. This idea of "You complete me"—I hate that rhetoric. I am complete. I would be devastated if my husband dropped dead tomorrow; I love him dearly, and I don’t want us to divorce. But especially as an introvert, I need a lot of me-time. And he needs that less than I do, which is where the conflict lies. Maybe you’re the same way, where your partner is more extroverted. Mine is, and that’s part of the issue. Maybe introverts should marry each other, but then again, it’s good that he pulls me out of my shell.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Growth edges, right? My wife is 100% extrovert. She will literally fall asleep in the middle of a sentence because she talks so much. But it’s not like you do everything separately. If you take separate vacations, you can still vacation together. If you sleep in separate rooms or beds, you can still sleep together when you want. It’s about having the option.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, it’s about freedom, and being able to do it in a way that doesn’t insult the other person. Like, "I’m not taking this vacation alone because I don’t love you, or because something’s wrong with our relationship—it’s just something I need." Or, "I’m not sleeping in another room tonight because I’m mad at you—I just need it." But I don’t know if we’ll ever get there. Definitely not with the separate bedrooms, and not with the separate vacations yet. Although, I do my quarterly solo hotel stay, and my partner has no conflict with that. He supports it and is like, "It’s time for you to go do that." But the vacation thing? We don’t take enough vacations to make that happen, and we don’t have the finances for it.
Taina Brown: It’s expensive. I remember when I brought up the idea of a solo vacation or a separate vacation, my wife was not happy. I was like, "Okay, this is a conversation for another day." And we can’t even afford it right now, so it’s not worth it.
Becky Mollenkamp: Future problems we can’t afford, exactly. The separate bedroom thing is kind of the same for us. It would have to be in my office, and I don’t want to take over my office with another bed. So it’s a futile discussion, but I do bring it up from time to time, just to butter the bread a little for when the time comes. We’ll see.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, it’s incremental. And I don’t want to intentionally hurt my wife’s feelings, so it’s just not going to happen right now.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I think that’s something we’re always mindful of. We’re always like, "Just a reminder, I love him very much," or "I love her very much." I can’t wait to see what ChatGPT tells me the theme of this episode is. I always feed the transcript into it and ask for title suggestions, keywords, and a summary of the episode. I know the theme is relationships, but I’m curious to see what else it picks up on.
Taina Brown: Yeah, and if you have thoughts on this, if you’ve dated more than one gender or have different experiences, we’d love to hear from you. Email us at messyliberation@gmail.com, or leave a comment on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Becky Mollenkamp: Same if you guys are in separate bedrooms. How’s it working? What was the conflict, and how did you convince your partner? I posted this on Threads once and was shocked at how many people said they do it. A lot of people push back, like they can’t imagine it, but so many said, "Yeah, we’ve done it forever." For a lot of people, it happens after they have kids. You get used to sleeping with your kid to help them sleep, and eventually, you kind of enjoy the vacation away from your partner in bed. Anyway, tell us—we want to know. And thanks for being here yet again on this slightly rambly, all-over-the-place, but hopefully still interesting episode.
Taina Brown: I mean, that’s what relationships are—they’re kind of all over the place sometimes.
Becky Mollenkamp: And that’s what the show’s about, right? It’s messy. So here’s another perfectly imperfect messy episode for you.