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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Oh Scott.
This is off to a great start.
This is off.
What did you drop?
You don't need your phone.
No, I'll just leave it there.
Could be on the ground.
That's fine.
Really, uh we're ready to go, hey?
It's been a little while.
We just forget how to do this, I guess.
I know, because we did take a bit of a break with all those other episodes that we
Did some revisits, yeah.
Revisits.
And then of course her daughter went to the hospital for a nice solid week, which was fun, was it?
No.
It was not.
No, we had a a lot happened personally since we've last sat down together to record a episode.
Mm-hmm.
Which I feel like was basically an entire month of just our daughter being sick and then coming back home trying to get
settled back into routine, then I went away to do a talk and then I came back and it's just been a fun before she got sick you were away.
Yeah.
Or you and she were away.
I feel like for the entire month of February I barely slept in my own bed.
And I'm definitely ready to get back into routine, that's for sure.
But we're very grateful that our daughter is doing a lot better.
For those of you, I guess people don't have context for that.
Right.
If you don't follow
Nurtured first on Instagram, then you maybe don't know, but our daughter had an infection that ended up putting her in the hospital for just over a week.
And so Scott and I were sharing about a little bit about our experience from our lens on social media, or I was, I guess.
And uh we're just really grateful for the outpouring of support and love from our community there and from our community in person as well.
Yeah.
Honestly, our hospital system too.
I know a lot of Canadians might sometimes complain about our system.
I mean it is a free healthcare system, but I mean it was great.
Yeah.
I have no complaints about what happened there.
They took it all very seriously and everything was taken care of and I think the the best way.
She got the support she needed.
Uh we got the support we needed.
That we want to.
Also shout out to the Ronald McDonald
Support and organization for supplying meals and just like I think it gave us a understanding and a deeper appreciation for everyone who goes through medical issues with their child and has their child in the hospital and you know, even having to leave the hospital but leave her there.
Like all those things were really difficult.
So yeah, we come out of it changed people, but more tired people as well.
More tired.
I feel like we're slowly getting back into things.
It's only been what a week and a half.
Yeah, it hasn't been too long, so
And now we're here recording a podcast for you and we're excited to be back.
Mm-hmm.
We have some exciting episodes planned, so no more revisits for a while.
We are back.
Yeah, hopefully we don't have to do that for a little bit again.
Guess who's back?
Do you think people are gonna get that reference?
They better.
Okay.
Well this episode is something that
We talked about the episode on chores.
Yeah, it was on chores.
And then we discussed how we should talk about allowances because that was not a big part of that conversation, but I found it interesting because I
looked into a lot of the research or lack thereof around allowances and I felt like my opinion on it may change a little bit based on what I found.
Okay.
And what is your opinion on allowances before you read any research, before today's discussion?
What would you say yes or no allowances to kids?
Uh in general I have historically.
And this is probably just because of our upbringing as well, but thought it was a ridiculous idea.
Is that surprising to you?
I actually thought you were gonna be pro-allowance.
So no, I'm actually kind of surprised.
No.
Originally I thought it's not a necessary thing to do for your children.
Like they don't necessarily need that.
And especially tying it to things that we do as a family, like the chores that we do.
Yeah.
I've never thought that that was a good idea.
But as an extension from that, I just thought allowances in general were not a good idea.
And I think it's
Partly maybe because of how, again, we grew up.
We're we both grew up in Dutch immigrant families to Canada and a lot of the family members would have to work on the farm or for the family business or what like the greenhouse or whatever it is, but you would do that unpaid.
Right.
And it is supposed to teach you work ethic and all that, but you're not getting paid for it.
It's just a part of what you do as a family.
It's our family business.
This is what you do
until you're old enough to actually make, let's say, a meaningful difference in what is going on in the family business.
So I think because I grew up with that
concept where you don't get paid for anything you do in the household or your family business or any of that, then I think that kind of that maybe skewed my thinking a little bit on
Allowances.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I think for me when we were a bit older, then we did get an allowance.
Yeah, but it was never given like as cash, like here's fifty dollars.
I don't know if I knew that
Yeah.
And honestly I don't have like a great memory of it.
I know my mom listens to the podcast so she can call me and tell me if I said this wrong.
But I think when we were a bit older, then they would give us X amount of
dollars, so it's not like it was a crazy amount, but they put it in our bank account with the idea that that can then help us when we go to university or when we go off to school or whatever.
But it wasn't like
Here's your money, now you can go ahead and spend it on whatever you want to spend it on.
So I had an appreciation for that, I think, as a child, especially because for us, our parents didn't pay for university
Right.
So I didn't have them paying for university.
So then when I got the allowance that could kind of go into those savings to help me when I did go off to school.
But it was more about savings than about money that I could just spend on whatever it was.
Yeah.
But that also brings up a good point of like
privilege and where you are as a family.
Like my family wouldn't have been able to do that regardless.
Yeah.
So this entire conversation around
allowance is a privileged discussion to have because it also kind of implies that you might have some extra money that you can give to your child, right?
Whereas let's say your parents at the time that wasn't an option
Yeah.
And you had to help work and all of those things just to live your life as a family.
So Yeah, in order to pay for things.
Yeah.
We had a bunch of piecework that we did for a local business.
So they would pay us per
unit of whatever we so we were in the basement we would be making these little wiring harnesses for something and then we also did a bunch of stuff in our garage so we had an assembly line we would build these units, blower units for greenhouses.
And we would get paid
per piece, but it wouldn't go to us kids, it would go to whatever my parents.
And they would use it to pay for things.
Yes, you would literally work to pay for
the things that you needed as a family.
Yeah.
Right.
So it's just again different situations.
And I think a question that I have that will answer throughout this episode is if we give our children an allowance
How do you do that in a way that doesn't make them feel entitled?
Right.
I think that's a question I've been hearing a lot of from people.
It's like, I want to give my kids everything, everything I never had, everything I can give them, but I don't want them to grow up entitled and think like
I'll just be given money and I don't have to do anything for it or money just appears in my account and then I can spend it on whatever I want.
So I think that's an important question to have too.
Yeah, so going back to your original question for me.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Originally I thought allowances
completely ridiculous idea.
I kind of have always written them off as something that we would likely not do.
Now we might be in a different position where we can help with schooling and all that kind of stuff by that point.
But allowance is
And maybe it's because in my mind they were also always tied to chores.
And I just thought that was not a necessity for kids to be paid for the work that they do around the house because it's just
That's what you should be doing as a family anyway.
You're helping each other out.
So should we start things off, maybe this is what you're you're getting, with a solid definition about
what we're talking about throughout this episode as we talk about allowances.
Well, I think that is a definition though, is it not?
Like an allowance is just being given a certain amount of money, with or without strings attached, I think.
Mm-hmm.
Or with or without having done certain work to get that money.
Yeah.
Right.
So I think it's a pretty broad definition.
Yeah, I think we just need to start with what is like how are we defining an allowance, right?
And then we can go into how it's helpful or not helpful.
Yeah.
But to give your child money a certain amount, not even necessarily specific amount, and it could be based on them working, it could be just you just give it to them.
And that's kind of like the most open-ended definition of an allowance.
Another thing I found interesting, so spoiler alert, I actually think allowances
can be really great.
Okay, he's changed his opinion.
I have honestly fully changed my opinion on it.
Well not fully, but I've done a 180 on the idea of
allowances.
And I actually think after this discussion, hopefully we can come to a conclusion on what we should be doing for our kids.
Because right now they don't started anything.
They don't have any form of allowance.
But yes, I have ch actually changed my opinion on it.
And another thing to note is that the research is terrible on this.
Essentially no valuable
Research.
If anything, it's research done by specific organizations not done.
Using the best scientific method to come to the conclusions
That being said, I still changed my mind on it because I think if we use a little bit of logic and common sense, we can see how it can be used as a very valuable tool for your kids in a certain way.
Wow.
The skeptic has changed his mind.
Yeah, and without really any research to uh I feel like we need to understand what has helped you change your mind on this, because that's a big switch
Especially because you had such strong feelings about it.
The way I thought about it was not as a tool, but as you're essentially rewarding your kids
And you're giving them money and they can kind of do what they want with it and they're sort of given the independence to do that with the money you're giving them.
Right.
So you kind of pictured what I would also picture as like a more traditional allowance where it's like, okay, every week we give you fifty dollars.
I mean that's a lot.
Every week we give you ten dollars.
And
That's your ten dollars.
You can use that ten dollars to buy candy, to buy stickers, whatever you want to buy with that ten dollars, that's yours
And maybe you still think of it somewhat in that way, but it's less about just giving children money, cash, and they can just use it however they feel like it.
Is that fair to say?
Yes, at least the what I was reading on this
subject, the way I started to think about it was more as a tool or a way to have conversations with your children where let's say we might make a big purchase like a house.
We're not really involving our children very much in that process.
So they're not gaining that financial literacy even through us for these big purchases.
And maybe it's because they're younger and we haven't had those kinds of bigger discussions with them.
But then by giving them just a even a small amount of money
Every week or every month.
We can then have these conversations and work together to purchase small things with them
So if they want to purchase a little toy or something like that every now and then because they've saved a bunch of money and we're able to explain
how we understand and use our money and how they can also use theirs and they're trying to use, I guess, the lessons that we've taught them.
I think of m allowance more as a tool is essentially what I'm trying to get down to.
A tool for teaching financial literacy to your child.
Which is very different than, okay, just because you live in this house, here's $10 a week.
So it's a much more intentional type of conversation that you're having with your child.
And it's to be clear, I think where you also shifted a little bit on the allowance is that it doesn't have to be rooted in you're paid for these things that you're doing around the house as well.
Yeah, it's kind of a tool, right?
It's a tool and conversation starter for us and our kids.
Mm-hmm.
So that let's say, especially when they're young, the little research that we could find on this was explaining that when you start it
quite young.
You don't have to give them a lot, but if you do it every week, it helps them kind of understand and value money more.
realistically than if you start later in life and you give them bigger sums of money because they're older or even smaller amounts, they just won't understand the true value of what the money actually means.
what value it holds.
That actually makes a lot of sense to me too, because I think, you know, we haven't done this with our kids up until this point.
And I think for them money is this big mystery.
Even though like I do try and talk to them, you do try and talk to them about it.
Right.
But it would
be more so like they want some random stuffed animal or something.
It's like, well why can't you buy that for me?
It's only like even this morning our daughter had like this catalogue of books, right?
And she's like trying to circle all the ones that she wants.
And she's like, well, why won't you buy that for me?
It's only fourteen dollars or whatever it is, right?
And I was like, well it's not about the fact that it's only fourteen dollars, it's about the fact that we don't just
randomly buy stuff the second that you want it.
Right.
And I find myself it's something I always have to work through and it's maybe because they feel so comfortable asking us or they're they can be so
persistent about these things that they want.
Where I just like sometimes just want to shut it right down and be like, you don't need it.
Look at all these books on the shelf, right?
And I've been really trying to be like, okay, no, this is an opportunity
to teach and to talk and to coach versus like just shutting down every request that they have to buy anything, which is like kind of my default answer, I feel like.
But if they had the allowance in that case, then they maybe have
choice over what they want to buy, but they also have to learn how to save.
And then they also have to learn, is this the $14 that I want to spend?
Because then I don't have that anymore.
And then I can't buy the next thing that I really want to buy.
Yeah.
Versus if everything is purchased by the parents.
Yeah, because I
I think continuing on that, I think they can learn about regret pretty quickly if they buy this fourteen dollar book.
And they realize I actually really wanted this other thing, but now I've already spent it and I'm going to have to wait until I have enough again to be able to buy this other thing that I wanted.
And I actually didn't really want that other thing that badly, that book that badly, even though in that moment I felt like I really needed it.
For that reason.
I actually like the concept of an allowance, if you can.
And let's say for us, we have the ability to give a small allowance to our kids.
And then I mean I've always been fascinated with money in general and how it's valued and trying to understand investments and all that kind of stuff.
It's just always been interesting to me.
So I've kind of
learn that over time.
And I feel like school in general is not great at teaching financial literacy at all.
Anywhere, it seems.
At least in North America.
So this is kind of a this is a one way for us to be able to give them
the skills and understand it's at least our values at this point, how we like to spend, save, give with the resources that we we do have.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, Thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurtur First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
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And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
And as you're talking about it, I am warming up a little bit more to the idea.
I think I I start from the same place as you, which is
You don't have to pay them for everything, you know.
They can do work around the house, they can do stuff without being paid, because that's both of our upbringing.
And that's something we value from our upbringing
bringing because we're both diligent hard workers who aren't afraid to do things for other people or for our family without like there always being some sort of reward tied to it.
And I really want that for like back to being entitled, I really want that for our kids to know that you can do something like do the dishes, clean up your room, make your bed, and there's not always a reward.
tied to it's internal.
Which we talked about in the chores episode.
Yeah, we did.
But what I like about what we're saying is, you know, I have these moments, let's say I'm at the grocery store with the girls and
There's five million things that they all desperately need immediately, right?
Because they're like, oh, look at this stuffy.
Oh, I love this like juice cup.
I want this, I want that.
And the answer for me is always
Like no, no, no, no, no, no.
But if they have this allowance that they're saving up, then they can start to understand the value of what it is.
Like if we give them even two dollars a week or something like that.
It's like this is gonna take you this many weeks
to save that up so that you can get this juice container that you really want, which is like the thing our middle daughter always wants when we're at the grocery store.
And so if that's really important to you, it will take you six weeks of saving your $2.
And then we can go and buy that.
But then it's going to take you that amount of time.
To save up that money again.
So you have to really decide, is this the thing that you want?
And then it gives them some sense of control, I guess, over it as well.
Like if this is really what you want, well then you have to save up for it instead of being like
It's mom and dad's fault because they never buy us anything, which is always where she goes with it.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Personally, I think the clearest path
to your child feeling entitled to anything is immediately giving it to them without teaching them any lessons or anything.
Especially when the reality is life
Even for us, we can't have everything we want.
Yeah.
We can have maybe more than what we grew up with, but I just think that is honestly the quickest path to creating
someone who is entitled by giving them everything without trying to teach them a few lessons and values along with it.
Like sure, there's always going to be situations like for their birthday, okay.
We'll get them something that they actu they want that they don't have to pay
For with their or we might be on a family trip and we want to get ice cream every single day when when we're on the trip.
Yeah
when we don't normally do that.
I don't know.
Those are small, maybe small examples, but I feel like there's a lot of room in between giving them everything and giving them nothing.
And
if we're able to, let's say, through an allowance, which again is not based on the limited research I found, an allowance doesn't necessarily turn someone into a financial genius either
Yeah.
It can help as long as it's not, here's ten bucks, do whatever you want with it.
Yeah, go to the candy store, go whatever.
And then every week.
So I think if let's say we were not able to give anything to our kids, and this I think is regardless of us giving an allowance or not, we should still have some of those conversations about our decision making and why we choose to, let's say
Buy a house or get a new vehicle if we have to do that.
Or why we choose to buy a used vehicle versus getting a new vehicle.
Right?
Like those discussions as to why we're choosing certain things.
I think the other thing about being entitled
You know, maybe the people that I've met over the years who are most entitled, not even children, I would say like adults, believe that they just like deserve
to have everything, you know, and not that I want to be like to f our kids like you don't deserve anything, you know.
But they just believe that everything should just kind of be handed to them because that's how they grew up
I mean you joke about saying you don't deserve anything.
But is there anything wrong with actually kind of explaining that?
Like you actually don't in life, you don't deserve to receive anything from anyone.
It's not because you deserve it that you're getting this allowance.
It's just because we're able to.
and we want to be able to teach you something and it could stop next year.
We could decide, you know what, next year we're gonna do something completely different.
So this might change.
And again, you don't deserve to have this, but we are and maybe that's a little bit harsh to say it in that exact way.
Yeah, I might not say it in that exact word, but I know exactly what you're trying to say.
I think that is a problem where if we give it to them and make them feel like, hey, you actually deserve to receive this and we give them everything just because they ask for it, then yeah, you're going to end up
feeling very entitled in in life and feel like you do deserve everything.
And then when they go off on their own, after having lived with us and received everything, all of a sudden they stop receiving that.
And people are like, that's what
No.
Yeah.
I'm not going to give you a raise just because you feel like you did a a pretty good job.
I think that is a good example of, you know, if you just kind of always say to your kids, oh like
you know, you deserve the world.
You did like I'm gonna give you everything that you've ever wanted.
Like you want this, you've got it, right?
And I think that often comes from a wound from a parent of not getting what they wanted as a child and like
trying to maybe relive or heal that thing inside of themselves.
And I think sometimes that can backfire because then it teaches a child, oh, if I say I want it
And if I push it hard enough, I'm gonna get everything that I want, without also the coaching and the support and teaching like how
money even just comes to be like the financial literacy piece, right?
I think something I like to model to our children, which you and I both had modeled to us as well, is like the value of you do have to work hard.
And everyone works hard in certain ways, right?
But
intentionally and put the effort in.
And you know, my dad used to always say, you know, money doesn't just grow on trees, Jessica.
Like I feel like everyone's dad said that.
You know, everyone's dad said that you probably said that to our kids.
Everyone's dad said that
I definitely have said that as a in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way.
But I do think, and maybe this is just making us sound like old parents, that there is some value to that.
To like understanding, even when the kids say it like, oh well, why do you have to go to work?
I wish you could just stay home and play with me all day every day.
It's like I would love that
And like I also think it's okay for you to see us go to work and for you to understand that that's a part of life and to grow up knowing that so that someday when you are older and you have
to work.
You don't you don't think, oh like woe is me, like I have to put in hard work to get a good job or whatever I want to do.
Like that is part of life as well.
And I like having those conversations with our kids too.
Even though our three year old, I asked her yesterday what I do for work and she said, You go to the office and you eat.
And then I was like, You think that's what mommy does?
I go to the office and I eat.
And she was, Yeah, you eat a lot
I was like, okay.
She obviously hasn't been here.
You almost barely eat one of the things.
Both of us.
I thought that was funny.
But so I think that is all part of like making your kid not entitled.
But that's been a conversation a lot of people have asked me to talk about.
And then I think
in talking about the allowance it just comes up right like if you're giving your child money how do you do that in a way that doesn't make them think I just deserve to be given money at any given chance.
Yeah.
I mean I think it it has to be very structured, right?
If you're going to do it.
Okay, thanks for listening to the first part of this episode.
We've decided to split this up so that we have two
Easier to listen to episodes.
And it gives you time to reflect on the first half of this discussion.
And then next week we're gonna be back
with part two uh where we continue our conversation on allowances and maybe get into a few more hopefully practical outcomes for you to think about.
So yeah, hopefully you enjoyed the episode and we'll see you again next week.
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
We are glad that you are here.
If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review.
Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all.
A five-star rating helps us share our podcast and get these important messages out
there.
Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.