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From LeverNews.com — Lever Time is the flagship podcast from the investigative news outlet The Lever. Hosted by award-winning journalist, Oscar-nominated writer, and Bernie Sanders' 2020 speechwriter David Sirota, Lever Time features exclusive reporting from The Lever’s newsroom, high-profile guest interviews, and expert analysis from the sharpest minds in media and politics.
David Sirota: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Lever Time. I'm David Sirota. On today's show, we're going to be talking about the record breaking heat waves across the world and how they'll continue to get worse and more deadly. if politicians continue coddling their fossil fuel industry donors and refuse to do really anything at all about climate change.
Today I spoke with the author of a best selling new book about heat. The heat that's warming our oceans, the heat that's burning our forests, the heat that's turning our streets into frying pans that are literally searing human flesh off of people's bodies.
We discuss the future of summer and how climate fueled heat waves have the potential to change almost. Everything about the way we live our lives for our paid subscribers. We are also dropping exclusive bonus episodes into our [00:01:00] lever premium podcast feed this past monday We published my interview with the political economist and author brett christophers about his fascinating new book called our lives in their portfolios Why asset managers own the world?
We spoke about how private equity firms essentially use public money to become the private owners of all the things we need in our lives, like utility infrastructure, renewable energy, healthcare companies, which all ends up being a huge problem.
If you want access to our premium content, head over to levernews. com and click the subscribe button in the top right to become a supporting subscriber. That gives you access to the Lever Premium podcast feed, exclusive live events, even more in depth reporting, and you'll be directly supporting the investigative journalism that we do here at The Lever.
As always, I'm here today with Lever Times producer, producer, Frank.
Hey, Frank.
Frank Cappello: hey David, I've been having a rough, uh, week. I know we're going to be talking a lot about climate on today's show, but, you know, I, I, I had [00:02:00] one of those existential climate moments this weekend. I think all of us who really care about the climate and the future of humanity from time to time have those really dark, you know, moments from time to time.
Um, Specifically, I was, uh, I was at the Jersey Shore visiting family, uh, went to the beach, which was, was lovely, you know, had a nice time, and it was pretty hot that day, and, you know, I was like looking around, I'm like, damn, this is... This is gonna be impossible in a few decades, like, this isn't going to exist in this way anymore, and it made me really, really
David Sirota: I'm going to correct you. I think it's, it's actually less than a few decades. I think it's a few years. I think it's already happening right now, not to further depress you, but I think we all have to acknowledge and realize that this is in the here and now. And look, I think the The good news is, if there is any good news, the good news is, is that we can still deal with this problem.
Uh, the bad news is, is that we don't, as a society, seem interested enough [00:03:00] yet in dealing with this problem. it, And the longer we put it off, the harder it will be, uh, to cure it.
I mean, that's what freaks me out. I mean, it sounds like you had, the kind of, uh, weekend real realization that I have probably twice, three times a week, late at night, waking up in kind of a cold sweat. It was kind of the impetus for making the movie Don't Look Up. All those night sweats ended up becoming that movie.
But um, how did you process it?
Frank Cappello: You know, just spoke with some people that I really care about, um, remembered that we're all gonna be in this together, And honestly, the best thing that helped was remembering that these feelings are not only natural and normal, but like, this is how I should be feeling.
I think we're often gaslit in the society and told, you're worrying too much about this thing. Like you're, you're taking this a little too seriously. You need to calm down a little bit. And I think just like, you know, speaking with people being like, no, no, no, this is a totally natural reaction.
In fact, more people should be this freaked out all the time.
David Sirota: Absolutely, I think that's absolutely true. The,[00:04:00] the idea of just calm down is a really annoying part of our media and political discourse. And I'm not saying, you know, run around with your hair on fire, panicking all the time. But, but, but I, I don't think you can be overly concerned about this. I think our, the real problem in our society is that not enough people are concerned.
And that actually is a good segue to One, uh, story that we reported this week at The Lever that I want to talk about before we get to our interview, uh, about heat, it's a story we published, which has to do with climate change and specifically about the role of our former president, Barack Obama. So amid the record breaking heat waves that I mentioned up at the top.
Barack Obama and his, uh, one time top White House strategist David Axelrod, they have been publicly emoting about climate inaction, lamenting that inaction, uh, now this is classic Obama. Politics where he kind of [00:05:00] pretends to have been and to be an innocent bystander like that's Barack Obama's like Jedi mind trick.
I'm going to observe a problem, lament it and pretend I'm just an observer. And I wasn't, for instance, in the office. That's the most powerful office in the entire planet, right? And what's particularly annoying and actually destructive about this is that it completely ignores the fact that when Obama was president.
Yeah. And David Axelrod was advising him. They made deliberate choices not to prioritize climate policy. And worse, they expanded fossil fuel production all while Obama and his party were rewarded with a boatload of campaign cash from the fossil fuel industry. Now, you may say that's hyperbole. You may be thinking, Sirota, you're just overstating it.
Come on. I want you to listen to an audio clip. From March of 2012, this is a moment [00:06:00] when scientists at the time were warning of thousands of heat records shattering during the climate crisis. Obama went to Oklahoma at that moment to brag about how much fossil fuel he and his administration were unleashing to be burned into the atmosphere.
I want you just to listen to this. Listen to this.
Barack Obama: under my administration, America is producing more oil today than at any time in the last eight years. Over the, that's important to know. Over the last three years, I've directed my administration to open up millions of acres for gas and oil exploration across 23 different states. We're opening up more than 75% of our potential oil resources offshore.
We've quadrupled. We've increased the number of operating rigs to a record high. We've [00:07:00] added enough new oil and gas pipeline to encircle the earth, and then some. So we are drilling all over the place, right now.
David Sirota: Now, let's remember right around that time, the Atlantic magazine reported that Obama's advisor, David Axelrod, who's now lamenting the climate crisis on Twitter, that the same David Axelrod was urging the White House to steer clear of tough, divisive fights with Republicans and Republicans.
over climate policy in advance of the election. Okay, so let's say you want to give Obama the benefit of the doubt here. Let's say you think that, hey, Saroda, back in 2012, Barack Obama couldn't possibly have known how bad things were going to get. Even though, of course, scientists were screaming that things were going to get bad.
But let's just, let's just say Barack Obama didn't know anything back in 2012. what about 2018, [00:08:00] Because in 2018, Obama not only didn't apologize for what he did, he actually took another public victory lap about his support for fossil fuels.
In front of a Texas audience, he bragged about the oil and gas boom that he promoted during his presidency, saying, quote, That was me, people.
Barack Obama: we need American energy and, and by the way, uh, American energy production, it went up every year I was president and you know, that whole suddenly America's like the biggest oil producer and the biggest, uh, that was me people. I just want you to
David Sirota: So, fast forward to now, again. Obama and Axelrod lamenting the climate crisis on social media, in interviews and the like. Trying to basically greenwash what you just heard.
Trying to greenwash their record. Trying to not accept responsibility for [00:09:00] what they did. And the problem with this, in addition to it being, uh, dishonest, some might say, well, better late than never. They're saying good things about the climate now. Yeah, but there is a problem here. The problem is, is that when Democratic Party icons like Barack Obama and David Axelrod go out and lament the climate crisis without taking responsibility for what they did, without apologizing. They are saying to every Democratic elected official who is listening to them, and you better believe Democrats across the country listen to those guys, they are saying to those folks, you can offer up lip service and hollow gestures.
Instead of taking real climate action, it says to every democratic politician in office, Hey, listen, no matter what you do on climate right now, and if you help the oil and gas industry, you make the climate crisis worse right now in a position of power, whether you're in Congress, a state legislature, you're a governor, you're a Senator, you're the president, no matter what you do right now, [00:10:00] you can always go out later lament. What's happened. In fact, Obama and Axelrod's behavior, not taking responsibility sets the stage for what we saw this past week, President Joe Biden giving a speech calling climate change a quote existential threat, which of course it is all while Joe Biden refuses to declare a climate emergency, which would give him and the federal government new powers to fight climate change all while He is approving more oil and gas drilling leases than Donald Trump, all while Joe Biden is backing a Supreme Court ruling advancing a massive fossil fuel pipeline, that Mountain Valley Pipeline in West Virginia, right?
Obama and Axelrod lamenting the climate crisis without taking responsibility for their actions says to somebody like Joe Biden, Hey man, go out and give a speech. Saying, you know, go out and [00:11:00] give a speech and say climate change is an existential threat, and then keep making the climate change problem worse.
And later on, you'll be able to, just pay more lip service to climate change, even though you help make it worse. This is the destructive dynamic. That has to end. I mean, Frank, that clip of Obama in 2012 is, I mean, it's, it's like sociopathic. I mean, it, it like, it, I I I had to play it so that people could hear it.
Frank Cappello: It absolutely blew my mind. I had not heard that clip before, and Hoo hoo hoo! Didn't need that, on top of all of the dread that I'm already feeling. It's so important to know, I hope more people see this clip, hear what we're talking about, because Like, the longer that blind support for the Democratic Party continues, the longer we will not see any kind of action on this issue.
I mean, at least, at least with the Republicans, they're like, you know, we either don't believe in climate change or we don't give a shit about it. And, you know, like, at least they're ideologically [00:12:00] sound. but for, like you're saying, for them to be lamenting this. While, you know, Rewind, they were bragging about all their oil and gas drilling.
It's like, it's, it's gaslighting on a, on a massive
David Sirota: Gaslighting. No, no, no pun intended. Right? I mean,
Frank Cappello: No, yeah, no.
David Sirota: truly gaslighting and, and to be clear, I think Obama or Axelrod could say, listen. Back when we were in power, we did these things that was wrong. It was bad. And we need to admit that and tell Joe Biden and the Democrats to not repeat that.
But by not taking responsibility, they are effectively saying to people like Joe Biden, Hey man. You can do whatever you want to incinerate the world even more quickly than it's being incinerated and there will be no political consequences. There will be no consequences to your image. And that's the thing that is so dangerous about a lack of accountability.
That's what this is fundamentally about. A lack of [00:13:00] accountability. And frankly, I think a lack of accountability is at the core of all of our problems. Whether it's, uh, the... Big corporations ripping us off, whether it's corruption, whether it's climate change, just a culture that says the people in power can do whatever they want and they will never face any consequences to their stature, consequences to their images, no consequences at all.
That's what this is about. Okay, we're going to stop there because we need to get to our main interview with the climate journalist who just wrote. A bestselling new book. It's on the New York Times bestseller list about the future of deadly heat waves and what, if anything, can be done to stop them.
That's coming up right after the break.
Welcome back to Lever Time. As I'm sure most of you know, or have even personally experienced, this past July was the hottest single month in recorded history.
In the United States, temperatures rose above 120 degrees Fahrenheit in [00:14:00] several different parts of the country, and down in Florida, ocean temperatures reached 101 degrees, potentially shattering the world record for recorded ocean heat.
Additionally, large swaths of Europe, North Africa, and Asia have also been hammered with extreme heat this summer. And it's not just the temperature. That's rising over the past couple of months. We've also seen an increase in heat related deaths and life threatening burns from people simply falling onto the street onto the pavement, according to the European forest fire information system.
As of July 29th, the number of fires across Europe. Has reached 991, nearly double the yearly average for this season, and in China, record setting high temperatures have contributed to increased farm animal deaths and lost crops, threatening the food security in the world's second largest economy. It turns out that heat.
Heat is the deadliest [00:15:00] type of weather, on average killing more than twice as many people each year, as even hurricanes and tornadoes combined. Heat related deaths are also some of the most difficult to quantify, since most people don't actually get baked alive, but instead suffer from heart failure, dehydration, and even new food or water borne illnesses, since bacteria can replicate faster in warmer climates. Of course, the groups that most acutely suffer from these extreme heat events tend to be the most vulnerable among us, like unhoused folks, the elderly, and those with pre existing medical conditions. For those who live in major cities, like New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, which are covered in concrete and asphalt, the so called urban heat island effect can increase the temperature as much as eight degrees. And as terrifying as these unprecedented heatwaves are, what's even more terrifying is realizing that this summer will most likely be the coolest summer [00:16:00] for the rest of our lives. For all of these reasons, today I spoke with climate journalist Jeff Goodell about his new book, The Heat Will Kill You First, Life and Death on a Scorched Planet.
Jeff and I spoke about how summer will most likely change from the fun vacation season to the hopefully we can survive this season. We discussed which regions of the country will likely experience the most severe heat and we discussed how extreme heat waves will become even more deadly than we can imagine, where something as simple as your car breaking down could become a death sentence.
Hey Jeff, how you doing? Surviving the heat?
Jeff Goodell: Uh, I am. It is, it is hot again today here in Texas.
David Sirota: Yeah, it's pretty hot here in Denver, although it's been hotter. We're getting a high 80 degree respite. Uh, from the 100 plus degree weather here. Um, so I'm thankful for that. Your book is all about, uh, [00:17:00] heat and how heat could actually kill you. Could kill us, could kill us as a civilization, as a society.
So I want to start with, um, the origins of this book. I want to know how you got personally onto the topic of heat. You've been a climate reporter, you've been a journalist for a very long time, but, but the origin story of this particular book, I think is important. For people to understand the context of what's going on.
Tell us that story.
Jeff Goodell: Yeah, so it's weird and a little embarrassing. Um, because I had been writing for, about climate change for more than a decade. you know, Obviously was well aware that, uh, about global warming, about heat and all of that, but I never gave it really much thought in any kind of personal way, um, until about four years ago I happened to be in Phoenix on a 115 degree day and I was staying at a hotel [00:18:00] downtown and I had about 12 blocks to walk to a meeting and, um, I walked out of my hotel and just walked into this wall of heat, and by the time I got to my meeting 12 blocks away, I was dizzy, my heart was pounding, and I was thinking, what the hell is happening to me, and it was really at that moment that I realized that heat is dangerous, and that heat is dangerous in a way that even I, who had been thinking about climate change for a long time, didn't really understand, and that was the birth of the book.
Haha.
David Sirota: had a heat incident a couple of weeks ago. Actually, it was a couple of months ago at this point where I was working out at the gym and walking home. And it was extremely hot and I actually had trouble getting home. And I didn't really know what was going on. It was, it was, it was, it was like this horrible feeling.
It felt like the world was sort of closing in. I was going to pass out. I didn't really know what was going on. And then I got home and I was like, wow, it's like a hundred degrees out. And that is kind of how the heat can kill you.
And [00:19:00] it was a reminder to me about not just, I mean, yes, heat. Can be dangerous, but like it can be day to day, uh, dangerous. And, and that is why your book is so important So I guess let's talk about the central point of the book.
What's the overall message? You're trying to convey in this book beyond just, hey, heat is scary and can be, can be dangerous.
Jeff Goodell: you know, I talked in the opening of the book about this idea of the Goldilocks zone, that everything on earth here, has, all living things have evolved in this sort of range of temperatures, um, that we're all pretty well prepared to and well adapted to. And our bodies, you know, a stable body temperature is really important to all of our metabolic functions.
And you know, obviously we can handle a certain range of temperatures. We can handle a certain range of cold and we can handle a certain range of heat. But when those temperatures begin to get [00:20:00] out of that range, Um, our bodies have, and all living things, have big problems. And, um, the central argument of my book is that as our climate heats up, we are moving out of our Goldilocks zone.
And we're moving, and we're going to have more and more of these kinds of extreme events where the heat rises to such a level and so quickly that our, you know, our lives and the lives of millions of people are risk. And not just in some long term. Way, but in like you walk outside and you take the wrong route and you get stuck somewhere in the heat and you're dead.
I mean, it's really a kind of almost like a lightning force.
David Sirota: You talk about in the book, the idea of global warming, that term, and how it has a potential branding problem and fails to convey the severity. of what's happening in the ecosystem. Um, I think the first part of the question is, is what to [00:21:00] you right now is the most alarming kinds of things happening, or the most alarming signs happening in the ecosystem, in the climate?
And what kind of language do you think we need to update our vernacular, uh, so, so that we're, we're conveying the severity of those problems.
Jeff Goodell: Well, I think the most alarming thing that's happening right now at this very moment is the, um, uh, alarming, really, truly alarming rise in sea surface temperatures in the Atlantic, um, ocean temperatures drive everything in our, in our climate system. And, um, We're obviously land based animals. So we're thinking about, you know, 115 degrees in Phoenix for 30 days in a row and things like that.
But to me in the big picture, when you really think about it, it's the, it's the ocean temperatures that are really alarming to me because the oceans are these reservoirs of heat. Once they heat up, they stay hot for a long time. They [00:22:00] drive a lot of other climate changes. And, um, That, to me, is real evidence of, um, that we're moving past boundaries that, that, you know, we, we don't really understand.
Um, you know, and as far as the phrase, Global warming, you know, sounds like better beach weather, you know, and I mean really, and we talk about, you know, 1. 5C of warming, 2C of warming, to most people that sounds like what's the difference between 78 and 82, I mean, who knows, who cares, you know, it's like, it sounds like nothing.
And part of my challenge in writing this book was trying to make those distinctions clear and important and why these relatively small changes in temperature, um, have big implications. And it's also why I titled the book, you know, with, with what was, uh, among my friends and colleagues that I was, you know, road testing it with before we, before publication, you know, the heat will kill you first.
It was a pretty provocative [00:23:00] title, but I, but I really wanted. I wanted this book to feel immediate. I wanted it to feel about you now, not some distant event of people we'll never know in some faraway land. You know, I wanted it to be about you and me and our lives and everybody's life on this planet right now.
David Sirota: So let's talk about right now, uh, the, the question of. Specifically, the danger of heat, what do we know about how many lives heat is costing, uh, right now, excessive heat and, and you can extrapolate that by saying, well, he heats up the oceans, which creates a stronger storms and the like. Maybe let's narrow it down.
I read, I read a stat. Uh, for instance, I think it was something along the lines of 80 or 85 people in Arizona have died due to burns that they've gotten on their body, severe burns from just extremely hot [00:24:00] pavement. Um, so I guess very extrapolation of, you know, heat causes storms, causes tornadoes, just straight up heat.
Jeff Goodell: Well, that's something I looked into quite a bit because, you know, one of the difficulties in talking about this is that heat is not like a gun, right? If you get shot by a gun, you've got a gunshot wound, and it's pretty easy to say. Oh, he or she was killed by a gun. Um, heat is not that way. So people who die of heat stroke die and heat conditions die, often of heart failure, for example.
So, um, they would be diagnosed as having a heart attack. And only if you knew that they were sitting in a room that was 110 degrees for five hours, would you link , it To heat. So statistics are very poor on this. Um, widely acknowledged by every public health official I talked to. The numbers that I cited the best numbers that I cited in my book globally are about, 480 some [00:25:00] thousand people a year die from, you know, extreme heat exposure.
Um, those are almost certainly, uh, undercounted the numbers that you cited in, uh, in, in Phoenix right now are almost. Positively undercounted. We don't really have a good idea of the numbers, but we know that they are, um, large and that they are increasing. And, um, the faster these temperatures increase, the faster these mortality numbers are going to increase.
David Sirota: Okay, so let's, let's talk about what can be done. I, I, I think almost everybody listening knows that long term, what must be done is to stop burning fossil fuels, which ultimately makes... The planet hotter, . In addition to that, to deal with the very present right now, uh, issues with heat, one question comes to mind, can we air condition our way [00:26:00] out of this problem, or at least in a way that mitigates this problem in a productive, constructive, uh, realistic and sustainable way?
Jeff Goodell: Uh, the pretty simple answer to that is no. Everybody loves air conditioning. Most people love air conditioning. It's a nice idea to think that we can just give everybody air conditioning and we don't have to worry about this. But the simple fact is we're not going to give everybody air conditioning air conditioning puts incredible demands on our on our grid system There are billions of people on the planet right now who don't have air conditioning And are for all intents and purposes never going to get air conditioning.
I spent a lot of time with people While I was reporting my book who have air conditioning, but couldn't afford to run it So it's it's because of the electric electric bills. So it's you know tied to Poverty and many other issues. Moreover, we are not going to air condition the wheat fields and the corn fields where we grow our food, which are also vulnerable to, um, extreme [00:27:00] heat.
Just like we are, we are not going to air condition the oceans, uh, which for all the reasons that we talk about earlier, plus food and things. So, you know, air conditioning is a way of, of creating a kind of bubble that you think you're okay in for a while, but in fact, the rest of the world is still going to suffer from this extreme heat.
David Sirota: I should, I should, I want to interject and ask, does that. statement that you're making about air conditioning not being really a solution. Does that extend even in the, um, I guess most ideal situations where the United States and industrialized countries, countries all over the, all over the world do a much better job of producing, um, Heat pumps, much more energy efficient heat pumps.
We've heard, I've heard a lot of people talk about how heat pumps are a part of a climate solution. Uh, so I just wonder, like, if you could, if we waved the wand and every air conditioner in the world was [00:28:00] a heat pump, are we still not going to be able to air condition our way out of this?
Jeff Goodell: no, because, you know, I'm, I'm putting a heat pump in my house right now. And, you know, It's expensive, and, you know, it's complicated, and it's taking forever to get installed, um, And so, heat pumps are great. Air conditioning is, is certainly, I'm not saying that we should turn off air conditioners. I mean, obviously, they save people's lives.
We should democratize air conditioning. Absolutely. We should make it accessible to more people. We should make it free. We should make it a... a public right like clean water or something in in these hot areas, And we should clean up the grid so that when we run it It's not being powered by fossil fuels and just you know, making the problem worse because air conditioning you know drives a huge demand on the grid during extreme heat waves and one of the other problems with air conditioning is that You know, one of the infrastructure experts in my book talked about what he called a heat Katrina, [00:29:00] referring to Hurricane Katrina, because you have such demand on the grid during these extreme heat events that there's inevitably going to be a long term blackout during one of these things.
And the way we build houses and buildings now, they're all sealed up. And as soon as the air conditioning stops, they become convection ovens. And so, you know, we're dependent upon air conditioning in this way. But all that said, Yes, air conditioning saves lives. We should do everything we can to get air conditioning to people in a sustainable way that will cool them off and save their lives.
But the reality is still there are billions of people who are never going to have air conditioning. And outdoor workers, you know, you're not going to air condition the guys who are out right now down the street here. Working. It's 107 right here in in Austin today, and they're putting asphalt down.
I mean, I mean, the look on those guys's faces right now, as I just saw them 20 minutes ago. I mean, those [00:30:00] guys aren't gonna get air conditioning. And those guys are, you know, the kind of people who are extremely vulnerable to this rising heat.
David Sirota: So then let's talk about, um, I guess adapting. Some laws or rules to the reality of all of this heat.
Um, last week, President Biden announced new steps to try to protect workers, including a hazard alert, notifying employers and employees about ways to stay safe from extreme heat. And the administration introduced or announced measures to improve weather forecasts, make drinking water more accessible on the job, et cetera, et cetera.
There's talk of an OSHA, uh, Occupational Safety and Health Administration rule, uh, dealing with heat in the workplace. What kinds of things can be done, um, to protect workers on the job? Is, is there anything really adequate that can be done for the outdoor workers that you just mentioned?
Jeff Goodell: Well, certainly, you know, [00:31:00] Biden, President Biden's, you know, um, gestures last week were. You know welcome, but they're like nowhere near close enough, you know messaging about heat is not going to is not It's not the solution here. We need You know much more dramatic action and laws OSHA has been working on heat standards for seven years or something and they still haven't come out with it because All these big employers are fighting hard against it because they are fearing that it's going to hurt their productivity and things.
It's the same reason, I mean, in the middle of the Texas heat wave here two weeks ago, Governor Abbott signed legislation prohibiting any cities or counties in Texas from instituting shade or water breaks for workers. Because he was, you know, his, his theory is that it's going to cut productivity. I mean, that's insane and barbaric.
Right. So. So, you know, what's going to save outdoor workers is really strong and [00:32:00] enforced federal laws that say, you know, when the temperature gets above a certain degree, you have to cut off work, you have 20 minutes of breaks every two hours or whatever the standard happens to be. But, you know, real enforcement of real guidelines and real laws about this.
But, you know, I'm a, I'm a fan of President Biden. I think he's done. You know, there's a lot of great stuff, but you know, this is not, this is a long way from happening. And so outdoor workers are extremely vulnerable. You know, I wrote about a agricultural worker in Oregon who died of heat stroke in the fields in 2021 during the Pacific Northwest heat wave.
And he was well, he was from Guatemala. He understood heat. He understood exactly the risks of heat. But he also understood that if he took a break and was seen sitting around in the shade drinking water, he was going to get fired. And if he was going to get fired, what was he going to do? And how, you know, in his dream of sort of saving money for, to build a house for his wife back in Guatemala would be over.
[00:33:00] So he kept working and he ended up dead.
David Sirota: That's a good segue to, to a question about, about the science and physiology of heat. When it comes to workplace rules, that would better protect outdoor workers in a, uh, boiling world, Do we know, do we, do we have basic standards that we know should apply to all human beings to best protect them?
I guess what I'm asking is, I'm guessing certain people, certain people's bodies react differently to different levels of heat. And so I guess what I'm asking is, do we have this, the, the scientific precision to know exactly how to protect the most workers and, and if we do, like, what are the key, the key things that we know,
Jeff Goodell: Well, that's one of the things that makes HEAT so tricky. Um, and it's the same thing with, um, ranking. And there's a lot of interest right now because of the... Uh, you know, rising [00:34:00] vulnerability and stuff in ranking heat waves, like we do hurricanes, you know, category one, category two, category three kind of thing.
And with hurricanes, for example, it's easy. It's a wind speed and that's pretty straightforward ranking. With heat though, it's different, you know, 110 degrees in Death Valley is very different than 110 degrees in a very humid Miami, for example. So humidity of heat has a big, is a. Big, you know, it affects our bodies in very different ways because you know The way our bodies just pay heat is by sweat.
And if the more humid the air is the less Efficient our bodies are at Evaporating the sweat which is why you when it's really hot and sweaty You're sitting in a pool of sweat and you just get hotter and hotter and actually wet heat is much more dangerous than dry heat but there's also the question of different vulnerabilities in different people, right Um, extreme heat puts a lot of strain on your heart and so what, because what our bodies do [00:35:00] when they try, when we're trying to dissipate heat is that your heart starts pounding harder and harder and pushes all your blood.
away from your internal organs and your brain towards the surface of your skin in order to get closer to the cooling of the, of the sweat, which is carrying the heat away. So your heart works really hard, and people who have any kind of heart problems, circulatory problems, if there happen to be on any prescription drugs like diuretics or beta blockers or something that impair circulatory stuff, they're much more vulnerable.
So all these kinds of things make it very difficult to say, you know, All work has to stop at 101 degrees or something like that, right? So, there has to be flexibility in these regulations. Basic ideas about when the temperature gets above X degrees, you get 15 minutes of breaks every 90 minutes or something like that.
But, it's very hard to get really precise about it.
David Sirota: let's talk about how. Other parts of life may need to [00:36:00] change. Um, I, I saw recently a piece in, uh, Bloomberg that was talking about how summer as we know it is over. And it was talking about how people's, uh, the culture's view of summer as a time to take vacations, to warm places and the like, that that's gonna have to, that, that's gonna have to, to change.
That a lot of these places are, are, Um, not really enjoyable or, uh, uh, ideal to go to, uh, in the summer because of heat. I mean, I love summer because I think of summer as, you know, from when you're in, you know, elementary school or high school, you think of summer as summer break, right? When I was growing up in Philadelphia, you went to the, you went to the Jersey shore, right?
Like, Do you think we're going to be soon at a point where summer is a place for people to sort of batten the hatches and really not travel and not move around because of such extreme heat?
Jeff Goodell: Yeah, I'm living it right now in Austin, Texas. I mean, seriously, I mean, I [00:37:00] live a vampire life here, you know, it's like so hot during the day that I don't want to go out and not just me, but everybody I know, we don't want to go out in the day. Our cars are too hot to touch. You know, you can't walk anywhere because you know, you're in the sunlight for in the heat for 10 minutes and you're, you know, feeling woozy.
I mean, it's profoundly changing life here in, in Texas, you know, already everybody, you know, goes out at night and up or up early in the morning and, and, and it's really changing the rhythms of life here. But I also think I read that Bloomberg piece and I think it's very true that, you know, do you want to go for a vacation in Sicily right now?
You know, um, it's going to have huge economic implications for the whole kind of. Vacation industry and these sort of seasonal rhythms of where we go and how we think about summer and, you know, in the south here, I think summer is not playtime [00:38:00] anymore. You know, it is just too brutal. I mean, not just Texas, Florida.
I mean, who wants to, you know, go to the beach when you can't be outside? Um, I think it's going to have summer. Yeah. Profound implications. I was talking to a city official here and we're talking about you and I were talking about workers a minute ago I was talking to a city official in houston a couple weeks ago, and he said We're going to have to shift all construction Uh in houston to nighttime in the summertime if we want to build anything we're going to have to build it at night because it's just Too hot during the day for any kind of workers or to do anything.
And that's going to be profoundly disruptive to all kinds of economic rhythms in, in that city. And just, I think the harbinger of things to come.
David Sirota: And I should say, my own summer, I kind of experienced this this summer, this was quite randomly the first summer that I did not go to the Jersey Shore in probably 30 years, maybe 35 years at this point. We stayed here in Colorado and [00:39:00] we've been going up to the mountains where it's much cooler. And I something something in my brain kind of signaled like maybe this is.
The vacations more and more people are going to take to get to places that, for instance, higher altitude or higher latitude, uh, where it is cooler in the summer and that going to, you know, back to the East Coast isn't even that high a latitude, right? But like the, you know, the humidity of the Jersey shore, a heat wave on the East Coast is much different.
You know, as you said, 90 90 degrees. It's much different with all that humidity on the East Coast than it is here in Denver, and Denver is a much hotter climate than it is. You know, an hour and a half into the mountains. I think all of that, it was the first, even in my mind, I was like, well, maybe, maybe this is the way we're going to, when we, when we do recreational trips, maybe this is the way we're going to be doing this.
We as a whole society are going to be rethinking this. Now that's a good segue to the other part of this question. There are certain places where [00:40:00] the tourism economy is going to change. The, uh, the travel economy is going to change. There are other places that have come up recently that some people are arguing are not going to be livable anymore.
What are your thoughts on places like Arizona, Las Vegas? Do you think in our lifetime, we are going to see those places deemed as holy? Unlivable. And, and what does that, what does that mean? Right? I mean, what do, what do we really mean when we say, you know, Arizona is no longer livable or, or, or Phoenix in specific or Las Vegas or Tucson?
What does that mean in practice?
Jeff Goodell: I think that's a kind of metaphoric language. I mean, because first of all, we can live in all kinds of places, humans, you know, if you have the right technology, if you have enough money, you know, you can, you can air condition anything. You can build air conditioned tunnels under, you know, there's an easy to imagine.
Phoenix going [00:41:00] underground, you know, um, developing shopping malls and bowling alleys and whatever else you want to imagine in an underground world. And, um, you know, this question of uninhabitable, the first thing that comes to mind is uninhabitable for who, you know? So, so yes, if you're, if you have no money and you're looking for a cheap apartment and you work outside, um, you know, It's easy to imagine temperature ranges half the year being, you know, unlivable.
I mean, literally, unless you're willing to suffer and put your life at risk, you know, that it is, you know, deadly and dangerous conditions. And, you know, every living thing has thermal limits. You know, there, our bodies, we have thermal limits. There, there is, you know, there's a reason there's no life on Venus, right?
I Mean, the Wall Street Journal just, what, yesterday, the day before yesterday, had a piece about how this summer's heat has already had, um, a ten billion dollar impact on the Phoenix economy.[00:42:00] So yes, you can live there, but it's going to have a lot of effects on things, and it's going to be a different place, and in the whole sunbelt boomtown, everybody be happy and just go wear your shorts and flip flops and hang out in the desert, is not going to be a thing.
You know, it's going to be a very different kind of way of life.
David Sirota: And, and, and there's all this talk of how we are moving into a new geologic era. I want to hear your thoughts on this. There was a group of scientists that claim that human activity is so fundamentally now altered. The Earth's climate ecosystem and geology, uh, that we've Entered the Anthropocene, I think that's how you say it.
though it's yet to be formally recognized by the scientific community. And there's all this talk now of tipping points, right? The ocean temperatures, have they are, have we reached a tipping point? There's five, six standard deviations off from where they had been in the past. Are we entering in your view [00:43:00] having studied this?
Are we entering a new geologic era? What does that mean? Does it mean anything? Do you think it will mean anything for the narrative about climate change? How urgently people, people, uh, perceive climate change?
Jeff Goodell: I don't know what's going to shape people's perceptions about climate change, but I don't think it's going to be this. I do think that by the Anthropocene, what that means is that humanity, human, human life on this planet is the primary driver of geologic change now.
Beyond anything else and we see that with you know, the co2 levels and all kinds of things You know plastic pollution and all that kind of stuff it and I do think it's a metaphoric But you know and it kind of slightly, you know in a slightly poetic description of the Force that humans are exerting on this planet right now that we are the dominant things We are in control of the [00:44:00] thermostat of the planet now we can decide How hot we want it to get, you know, and, and this also then extends into.
You know, spooky, scary stuff like geoengineering, solar geoengineering and things like that and manipulation of the Earth's climate in those ways, which we're not doing. But people are talking about. So I think it's I think it's an apt way to think about, you know, this moment that we are at and it at once the impact we're having and The possibility of our having control, that we can, that we can decide if we're going to allow the planet to warm to a place where the only way you can live in Phoenix is if you.
are in what amounts to a kind of spaceship. Um, or we're going to keep places like that, you know, relatively habitable. Um, so I kind of, I don't use the phrase a lot because it feels a little unwieldy to me and a little kind of dorky scientific. But, um, [00:45:00] but I think the idea is very powerful.
David Sirota: So I think the, um, the, the last question I want to ask you is, um, having studied all of this, having reported this, this book, what's the most encouraging? Kinds of things that you think are happening to address this problem of heat. What are the most promising things that are happening? Uh, and maybe, you know, if you could, if you were king for a day and you could wave your wand, what would be the kinds, one, two, three things you would wave your wand and... Bring into existence to address this problem.
Jeff Goodell: Um, well, by far, I think the most, um, hopeful and inspiring thing that I'm seeing happening purely as it relates to heat is, um, the way it is inspired, um, city planners and urban planners and others to really push hard to bring nature back into cities. I think that, you know, cities are You know, there's this [00:46:00] heat island effect that makes cities much hotter than the surrounding area, and we're seeing a lot, a lot of effort to green cities and, you know, in everything from in Athens, uh, rebuilding the Roman aqueduct to help bring water in so that they can have more green spaces in the city to, you know, Paris is doing an amazing job of greening the inner city, banning vehicles, reimagining cities as Um, it's a place that has a connection with nature.
And I think that that is, a really kind of powerful thing. Um, You know of what I could do to wave a magic wand. I don't know. I think it would you know This so is so deeply connected with politics and democracy so, you know if I could wave a magic wand I would do things like eliminate fossil fuel subsidies and you know, uh, Do something to get You know, to drive more, uh, more voters into polls and get people more politically engaged.
And, I [00:47:00] mean, I think this is a political problem, not a technological problem I mean, one of the really hopeful things, and I'll kind of wrap up with this, I've been doing this for 20 years, and when I started writing about climate change, it was like I wrote about the sex life of porcupines or something.
It was like some weird little thing, you know, that nobody cared about, and You know, and now it's the center of like every conversation. It's on the front page of the papers every day. Every time I go to meet new people, they ask me where I should, where they should move or what they should invest in or whatever.
Are we doomed or are we not? I think we're at this cultural inflection point where we have a lot of possibility. I think everything is up for grabs. I think how we generate energy. How we generate how we get our food how we live how we vote I think it's a we're at this inflection point and I feel that makes me kind of hopeful because I feel like we're within the grasp of being able to make really big changes and You know, there's going to be a lot of loss and suffering in the future.[00:48:00]
No question. It's front load given where we are But I do think that there's also a possibility of really building a better world and using this moment to, you know, recreate and rebuild in a way. Every time I drive by a strip mall here in Texas, I think, really? We can't do better than that? You know, it's not like we live in a perfect world.
And I think that we can do a lot. We have this opportunity right now, this window of people listening and paying attention that I find inspiring.
David Sirota: Jeff Goodell is a journalist contributing writer at Rolling Stone and the author of the new best selling book, The Heat Will Kill You First, Life and Death on a Scorched Planet. Jeff, thank you for your work. Thank you for your reporting. I have followed it for many, many years. And thank you, thank you, thank you so much for writing this upload.
Jeff Goodell: Thanks for having me on.
David Sirota: That's it for today's show. As a reminder, our paid subscribers who get Lever Time Premium, you get access to this week's [00:49:00] bonus episode, my interview with the author of the fascinating new book, Our Lives in Their Portfolios, Why Asset Managers Own the World.
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David Sirota: The Lever Time Podcast is a production of The Lever and The Lever Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, David Sirota. Our producer is Frank Capello with help from Lever producer, Jared Jacang Mayor. [00:50:00]