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Welcome to The Pilot Project Podcast, your premier source for stories and insights from pilots in the RCAF and mission aviation - brought to you by Skies Magazine! Whether you're an aspiring aviator, navigating flight training, or simply fascinated by the world of military and mission aviation, this podcast is your guide. We sit down with pilots and aviation professionals to hear their thrilling experiences, lessons learned, and expert advice on resilience, training, and the skills needed to succeed in this exciting field. Strap in - we’re ready for departure!
New here? Start with "Logbook: First 100 Part 1: The Climb".
Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set. PD switches.
Intro:Normal. Doors and hatches. Closed. Lie down. Drill bike.
Intro:On. Research check-in. Complete to your left. Engineer. Start number two.
Intro:Starting two. Wing three one zero ten, Pilot Project Podcast, clear takeoff runway three one left.
Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF, brought to you by Skies Magazine and RCAF Today. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is my friend and former instructor, Mike Hoole. Mike, welcome to the show, and thanks so much for being here.
Mike:Thanks for having me.
Bryan:Before we get started, let's go over Mike's bio. Mike graduated from flight training in 2003 and was posted to four two nine Tactical Airlift Squadron flying the CC one thirty h model Hercules. While training on the Herc, four twenty nine Squadron was stood down and all personnel then joined four thirty six Squadron. During the seven years he was posted to four thirty six Squadron, he deployed seven times in support of OP Impact. In 2011, he was posted to three Canadian Forces Flight Training School where he instructed on the CT one forty five King Air for six years.
Bryan:In 2017, he was posted to the Combined Air Operations Centre or CAOC in one Canadian Air Division NORAD region as a senior operations duty officer. In 2019, he was posted back to three CFFDS as the standards flight commander. In 2022, he was posted to air operations training standards evaluation and training in two Canadian Air Division as the deputy senior staff officer for air operations training and chief check pilot on the CT one forty five. In 2023, he was posted to the future air crew training or FACT training detachment team as the deputy lead for the team. Today, we will be focusing on his time on the Hercules and his experiences Afghanistan, as well as how those relate to his Remembrance Day experience.
Bryan:Okay. So, Mike, we go way back. You were my multi engine instructor and I was your first student, but I don't know this about you. Where did aviation start for you?
Mike:It started for me way back when I was a kid. Both my grandfathers retired from the Canadian Armed Forces in Trenton, Ontario at CFB Trenton. And my one grandfather on my father's side, he remained working for the RCAF and the supply division as a civilian after he retired. And so I spent all my summers in and around Trenton and Belleville watching the aircraft, constantly flying and it always captured my attention and my interest. And growing up in London, Ontario, they had the London air show, which was a huge air show throughout the eighties and nineties and still is very much a huge air show today.
Mike:One, if not the top air show in North America and as it was back in the day. So it always captivated my my attention as a young kid. And I remember one time, me and my grandfather, was about six or seven. We were at our trailer about an hour north of Trenton and we're out fishing on our boat and I saw this Herc come over the ridge over the lake and he dropped down to about 200 feet and as he approached the boat, he started rocking the wings. But then I noticed another Herc coming behind him and started doing the same thing.
Mike:This happened six times over. So there's six Hercs in a row, all rocking their wings ass and I turned to my grandma and I said, grandpa, what's going on? He goes, oh, it's just a boy saying hi. And I'm like, are they say really saying hi to us? He goes, oh, yeah.
Mike:They recognize my boat. And he was he wasn't kidding. I, you know, I thought he was putting me on and as a, you know, seven year old Josh and his grandson, but he wasn't. The the first aircraft commander recognized my grandfather's boat, obviously knew my grandfather from supply and started rocking the wings and told the rest of the boys to say hi too. So that right there, when I was seven years old, I was like, I wanna do that.
Mike:Yeah. One day, I wanna figure out how to do that. Yeah. And that's what pretty much had me from the get go. And later on, I got to go full circle and I got to do that.
Bryan:That's so cool. I also grew up going to the London air show and it was a very formative experience for me as well. It's a it is a great air show.
Mike:Amazing.
Bryan:Yeah. How did you find
Mike:your flight training experience in the forces? Intense. The adage open mouth insert fire hose was not a lie. Yeah. You really had to be on your game every day.
Mike:In other agilely, you say you're always two flights away from failing. Yep. And so you were constantly studying hard, putting in a lot of effort into learning the theory and learning the skills in the simulator and then putting it to practical use every day when you went up flying. And it wasn't the easiest thing to go through but I'm I'm very glad I went through it and it helped chart my way forward in my learning throughout my aviation career in the air forces.
Bryan:Did you have anything specific that helps you get through that stress and the pressure of that time?
Mike:You have to take time for yourself. I mean, yes, you're studying all the time but you always have to take at least a day for yourself. So on Saturday, Saturday was downtime. Yep. Actually, I'd say Friday at four till about Sunday morning, it was downtime, me time, do whatever I had to do to relax with the guys or by myself.
Mike:And then Sunday afternoon, generally is when I started to get it back into the books for another five day push.
Bryan:Yep. I totally agree with that. So you get through your flight training and you end up selected for the h model. Was that what you wanted?
Mike:Like I was saying, with my story with my my grandfather, flying the Herx was always what I wanted to do in Trenton specifically. When I first was on the multi engine flying school, just before I got my wings, they ask you what you want to fly. And I basically said, Herx, anything in Trenton. Because at the time, there were three squadrons flying Herx in Trenton. So whether it's the Search and Rescue Squadron, which was my first choice, and then the two tactical airlift squadrons, I was like, anything Trenton, Herx, I'm good.
Mike:And I end up getting four twenty nine tactical airlift in Trenton.
Bryan:So you must have been thrilled.
Mike:Oh, was. I was ecstatic. Yeah. And I didn't realize it at the time, but 429 was what led me to realize why those Hercs were flying over my trailer. Because that's the tactical training area for the Hercs, for the tactical Hercs.
Mike:They have a massive area that goes from Trenton all the way north up to Petawawa into the Quebec Hills, and my trailer was within that area. So I realized there was actually a significant point just to the west of our trailer
Bryan:Okay.
Mike:Which was constantly used for training and places to go to do a simulated drop and that's why they were going by there. So once I got qualified, especially when I became an aircraft commander, I made sure to route our routes to go over my trailer a couple times to say hi to everyone who's who's camping.
Bryan:That's really cool. So you arrived in Trenton and you thought you'd be flying with four two nine squadron, but that quickly became a posting to four three six squadron. Right?
Mike:Yeah. It sure did. So the RCAF decided they were gonna stand down four two nine because like I said, four two nine four three six were the two tactical airlift squadrons. Generally, when you're posted to one, you did four years there, and then you got posted to the other one to do your second tour. And guys would just swap in the hallways, basically, because we were just down the hall in 10 hangar.
Mike:So it wasn't that far of a stretch. You're just in a different group of people. And your second tour is more developed as an aircraft commander and then to be coming to teach the young first officers from there. So when I was on my OTU, I got the news that forty nine was standing down and I was post a four three six. And I thought this would be a brilliant idea to play a little bit of a joke on my wife.
Mike:So I came home from school that day because I was on the OTU still in ground school. And I and I said, Kim, I just got posted. And she's like, what do you mean? We just got here. So I know, but I'm posted.
Mike:I'm posted to 436 Corner. And she didn't know 436 was just down the hallway. She's like, well, then where are we moving to now? I said, oh, we're not moving. I'm changing offices down the hall in 10 hangar.
Mike:And and then I got the look. Yeah. And any married man who's overstepped himself knows the look. And she got up and she grabbed my hand and we went towards the front door and I said, well, where are we going? She goes, oh, we're going shopping.
Mike:You're paying. You don't ever give me news like that without flowers and chocolate in your hand. And that's not a joke you ever play again. And I was like, okay.
Bryan:So Yes, ma'am.
Mike:Yeah. It was a it was a yes, ma'am moment and, you know, what was sounded like a funny prank in my head was not a funny prank in reality. And then I literally paid for it.
Bryan:So when you arrived at 436, the squadron was steadily increasing its presence in Afghanistan. After you achieved an upgrade and did your basic tactical air training course, it was time to deploy. What were you feeling at that time?
Mike:Scared. Yeah. The reality of what we did became real real. I mean, until that point, the squadron hadn't been deploying over the world. They were they were moving equipment all over the world and doing stuff.
Mike:But we never really did what we did in training for real since Somalia. And so now it was becoming real. And when the first guys went out the door for six month tours, at that time, I went for two month tours. But when the first couple six month tours went out the line, we thought, okay, this it'll be over in a year. Yeah.
Mike:They'll be back and we'll be done with this.
Bryan:That's what we always think.
Mike:It's what we always think but it's not what happened in reality. Obviously, we went off for another ten years and so my turn came to go to go to Afghanistan on my first tour and then I left on my son's first birthday. So that was it was a little rough.
Bryan:Yeah. That must have been really hard.
Mike:Yeah. I got I got to see him take his first two steps five days before I left. And then when I came home, he ran up to me in the in the terminal. So I had missed a lot. Yeah.
Mike:And that happened repeatedly. I missed significant events in his first five years. Yeah. Anything that pigs seemed to happen, was never home, which really sucked. But having a very strong spouse, keeping the home front going was the key to that success there.
Bryan:Yeah, absolutely. That's so crucial when you're gone that much. You have to have somebody who's independent.
Mike:Oh, totally. She I paid for the house but it wasn't my house. Yeah. She was And when I would come home, it was I had to integrate into her Mhmm. Routine.
Mike:It wasn't my routine, it was her routine. So how do I fit back into this routine? Because, you know, I'm home now for the next month being on leave, but then I'm going to be flying with the squadron again, doing regular missions all around the world. And then I'm gearing up to go back overseas again. So Yep.
Mike:I was gone six to eight months of the year for seven straight years. Yeah. So it's Again, it's it's her routine.
Bryan:It's good that you realize that though because that's a big part of the friction some people get when they come home is not realizing that you have to now integrate into someone else's routine because they've learned to get along without you.
Mike:Yeah. Well, before we came home on our and they do this for every tour that we're on, but they would have a meeting with all the crews before they go home and not just the air crews. I mean, even the army guys who were gone for six to nine months at a time and give us these briefs to say, hey, this is what you need to expect when you come home that she's had her own routine for so long and it's not just you come home and everything's back to normal. It's a bit of a disruption for her to actually have you back in the house. So to get to Comptizen to realize that reality was a bit of a shock, but I saw it right off the bat and, yep, what do you need me to do?
Bryan:Yep. Canadians developed a reputation for doing whatever was asked of us even when other countries said it couldn't be done. Can you give us an example of that?
Mike:Yeah. One example was, again, on my first tour, we were asked to move a HIMARS system, the high mobility air rocket system for the Americans because the Americans wouldn't move it themselves. When the Americans were flying over in Afghanistan with their Hercules transport aircraft, they were putting weight restrictions on their airplanes and we weren't. We were just like, it's a Herc. It's what it's designed to do.
Mike:Let's move it. Mhmm. So when they When the American Kayak asked us to do it
Bryan:And for the listeners, a Kayak is a combined air operations center.
Mike:We said, yeah, sure. We'll do it. So we flew to Bagram Air Force Base from Kandahar and then it was two trucks with three double pallets of missiles or rockets that we had to bring to Kandahar for them to fire off the next day and then we brought them all back. And it was a task and a half bringing that system down to Kandahar. The first truck was the the loader of the that would pick up was had a crane on it.
Mike:It would pick up the missiles off the the rack and put it into the rocket launcher and it had self deflating tires. So the guy had to lower the pressure down to 10 psi and really brought the height of the truck down just enough so it could get back roll back into the back of the Herc. And it took us an hour a little over an hour to get it into the back of the Herc because by the time it rolled in, the truck had six inches of clearance on either side and four inches on top. Like, it was a snug fit. And the there was a young corporal that was driving the truck and when he got in there and we said stop, he tried opening the door and he realized he wasn't getting out and he's and he's like, I got a meeting I gotta go to.
Mike:And I said, who's your sergeant? Who's your supervisor? He goes, the guy over there. So I went talking and he said, sergeant, I had to let you know, your corporal's coming with us for a ride to Kandahar. We'll bring him back.
Mike:We're gonna be about three hours because he's stuck in that truck and he's he's going for a ride. And he's like, oh, okay. And the young car was like, I'm doing what? And back then, we were low when we departed out of Bagger and we were doing low tactical flying, banking and cranking before we would pick up enough speed and climb as fast as we could to get to heights. So he was getting a backseat ride in the facing backwards in this big truck in the back of the Herc, not being able to see outside the windows and just going for a roller coaster ride.
Bryan:Oh my gosh.
Mike:I'm surprised he didn't get sick. But I know when we got to Kandahar and he drove the truck off, he's like, I need a break. And I'm like, I don't blame you.
Intro:I would not wanna
Mike:do that. I I don't wanna I wouldn't wanna be in the back with experiencing that level and him being stuck there because he wasn't used to flying in Hertz. And especially the way we flew them at the time. So so yeah, we brought the first truck there. We went back the second truck.
Mike:And then we went back two more times to get all the missiles. So that was a whole day of flying. And we got the last load to Kandahar. They're they turned to us and said, hey, do you wanna watch us fire these things off? And we're like, yes.
Mike:Yes, we do. So the next day, we went out to the Kandahar Range and they set it all up. Again, then the realization of you're in a warzone Yeah. Became real because when these things get fired off, someone's gonna die. Yeah.
Mike:These things are meant to make big explosions and we fired off every single rocket they had in the span of forty minutes.
Intro:Yeah.
Mike:And once they're all done, they packed it all up and said, we'll see you on the ramp tomorrow so you can take the two trucks back to Bagram.
Bryan:Was that at, like, on a range or was that at at enemy targets?
Mike:They were shooting at enemy targets from the Kandahar range. Wow. Yeah.
Bryan:That's crazy. Yeah.
Mike:And it was it was like successive barrage of, until the whole rack was done and they would pick up the next rack, load it in and fire them all off again.
Bryan:That's crazy. So your bread and butter in Afghanistan was dropping container delivery systems or CDS bundles to forward operating bases or FOBs. Why were those drops so important to troops and FOBs, and why not just truck them in?
Mike:At the time, I don't know if Afghanistan still holds the term, but at the time, it was the most heavily mined country in the world. You couldn't go walking onto dirt roads or dirt fields with not running the risk of stepping on a landmine. Even when we flew into Bagram Air Force Base, there were areas in between the concrete that you would see would have flags on them standing up. And those flags were identified landmines that hadn't been dealt with yet
Intro:Oh wow.
Mike:As they built the airbase. So you were always told, stay on the hard pack, stay on the concrete and the pavement, don't walk off it unless you know it's a cleared area. So, for all these FOBs out and there are many FOBs, Canadian FOBs, American FOBs, all over the place. For them to have all the equipment that they need, whether it's food, ammunition, blankets, whatever, to have it trucked out there was extremely dangerous. The Taliban loved to put land mines and anti tank mines underneath the roads and blow blow, vehicles up as they were going by.
Mike:Namely, the NATO vehicles as they were going by because they were obviously the enemy to them. Right? Mhmm. So it was very, very, very dangerous for them to truck anything to a FOB. So that's where CDS drops were the for the most part, the key choice of of delivery to getting troops on the ground what they needed when they needed it.
Mike:The Americans were doing CDS drops mainly at night on night vision goggles. Our, Herx at the time didn't have were not NVG compatible. The cop wasn't NVG compatible. So we did all our drops during the day, which was the most dangerous time to do CDS drops because they can see you coming. Mhmm.
Mike:But that's what we trained for. So that's what we did.
Bryan:What was your craziest story involving a CDS drop out of FOB?
Mike:Got a couple of them, but, definitely the one, the FOB Cobra rings a bell. So we did two to FOB Cobra. The one was probably the craziest. We had been flying around the country doing, I think, three different legs that day and we thought our day was done when we landed and as we're pulling into our parking spot, I noticed I looked over and I saw the K loader with a eight bundle pack of CDS onboard. And I was like, I think we are not done today.
Mike:And the AC is like, what do mean? I said, look over there. There's a k loader full of stuff and I think we're about to get told we're going flying again. And literally, as the engine shut down and the crew door opened up, the our ops officer came flying up into the cockpit, and he's like, how much gas do you have on board? And we said, for what?
Mike:And he said, to go to FOB Cobra, which we had just done a drop there the day prior to go do an emergency CDS drop. They're running low on ammunition. They they need supplies now. And so the navigator looked at the what we had left and said, well, we have enough, but it's basically fifteen to twenty minutes of extra gas and that's it because we've been flying around all day long. And at the time, if you asked for gas in Kandahar Airfield, it took two to three hours to get fuel.
Mike:Wow. So we didn't have that kind of time. So I was like, okay, sounds good. And just as he said, sounds good, you could feel the bundles being loaded onto the plane like Mhmm. It was all going to back.
Mike:We're like, okay, here we go. So we just pulled out all our maps from the day before that we had already had in our bags and pulled it out, quickly started looking at it and said, we're doing it again. So the riggers normally take four hours to rig a load in the back. It was done in twenty minutes. I think every rigger on the base was in the back of our airplane rigging the whole load.
Mike:And after about thirty, forty minutes, they said, fired up, go. So we did. So we fired up. We went directly to our our initial point where we're at altitude and we're gonna start dropping down to 200 feet. And I called up the ground controller on the same frequency I used the day prior.
Mike:And the response I got back wasn't from the ground controller, it was from an a 10 close air support pilot who's orbiting the drop zone. He said, ICEF88, you gotta hold. There's a Chinook helicopter on the ground, wounded troop is being loaded. We're like, okay. So we start holding and we're waiting and Aeng, how much gas How much time do we have?
Mike:And he said, you got fifteen minutes before we're turning this plane around and going back. Okay. And then, you know, now it's getting really antsy. The time's ticking away and we're looking at it and we're like, this is not how things are supposed to go. This is one thing I said, this is not how things are supposed to go.
Mike:What I'd forgotten was we had reporters on board Yeah. Who had gone for us for the day and that was the line that made the newspapers back home. Air drop on a wings and a prayer. This is not how things are supposed to go. I wasn't focused on who was in the back, I was focused on the job.
Mike:So we're getting antsy, the angel looks up again and he goes, seven minutes. And I'm just about to get on the the radio with the a 10 pilot again and he said, ISAF eight 8 cleared, 8 zero zero, go. And immediately, aircraft commander, he just dropped the nose over, pulled back the power and we just went right down, down 200 feet, cranking through the the valleys, popped up, door opens up, run altitude on airspeed, green on. The the logo's at the back. I actually got a video of the logo going out the back.
Mike:And then low clear, Immediately, he starts turning to the right because there's a mountain in front of us. We're running out of mountains, he's running at a distance. And so he started turning and climbing and we got up above the ridge because we're in a valley. And at this point, the navigator's like, you guys gotta go direct the button of the runway. We are going on fumes.
Mike:So that's exactly what did. Pointed the airplane right towards the the button of runway in Kandahar. And I got a hold of the area controller and said, you know, we're inbound, immediate landing for the stop. And he said, negative. I need you to go over to this point and hold for an hour.
Mike:There's a repatriation ceremony going on. And I said, negative. We're declaring emergency for low fuel. I'm not asking your permission to land. I'm telling you we're landing.
Mike:We'll keep it quiet. We will shut down the engine inboards as soon as we touch down. We won't use reverse, but we don't have a choice. And the controller came back to me and said, confirm what kind of aircraft
Bryan:you are?
Mike:We're a Charlie one thirty. And you're low on gas? Yep. It's been a very long day. Okay.
Mike:Cleared in, dark the runway, keep it quiet. So that's exactly what we did. We trying to be as reflective because usually when there's a repatriation ceremony going on, the airfield is shut down. There are no aircraft ops for respect for what's happening on the ramp, but we didn't have a choice. We were actually so concerned when we were attaching back to our ramp that one of the engines might flame out on the taxi back.
Mike:We were less than a thousand pounds on each main tank. Which is crazy. For a Herc, it's super crazy because you can get to a point where there's still fuel in there but they're just The pumps won't pick it up anymore. Yeah. So yeah, we were we were nervous.
Bryan:Yeah. And for listeners, for anyone who's got a little bit of experience flying, like that sounds like a lot of fuel but it's so little fuel for a Hurricane, it's wild.
Mike:Yeah. Was not a comfortable situation.
Bryan:Yeah. No kidding. Did you ever do any drops to Canadian FOBs?
Mike:I did. We did one drop to a Canadian FOB. I did five drops overall in my time in Afghanistan. One was to a Canadian FOB. They were middle of a firefight.
Mike:They were low on ammo. Again, it was a get up and go kind of moment. So we were going in for the run and we noticed Usually they light up the point where they want us to drop the load on with smoke And we noticed that we were flying right over top of the FOB and the smoke was on the far side of the wall. And as we're coming in, the ACs turned to the NAS and said, what do you think about throwing this bundle on purposely a little short? For some of the bundles, maybe to land inside the flop.
Mike:And this is a whole dangerous concept because you have these bundles coming in, they could land on the roof of something and break through or they could hurt people. These guys are engaged in a firefight. So they're up on the walls. And we said, yeah, let's do it. So we purposely threw it a 100 meters short of the There were six or eight bundle CDS.
Mike:Four of the bundles landed inside the FOB walls and the other ones landed outside. And we peeled off, went directly back to Kandahar which took us thirty minutes before we shut down and immediately ran into ops and said, what happened? Yeah. And we found out by the time we got back, half the guys had come off the wall, opened up the bundles, grabbed the bullets, bag on the wall. And by the time we had landed, the fight was over.
Mike:Awesome. And they were very appreciative of us actually dropping stuff right into the middle.
Bryan:Yeah. I mean, it would be pretty sketchy to have to go outside the walls to collect the ammo.
Mike:Yeah. It's not something I would want to do in a mobile firefight, personally. So that's where r squadron really got our pride from.
Bryan:Yeah.
Mike:Was getting troops what they needed when they needed in not the most ideal situations.
Bryan:What's the feeling when you land and you found out that it landed exactly where you wanted to and now they're safe?
Mike:Purulation.
Bryan:Yeah.
Mike:We were just jumping. It was awesome. It's what we do. It's what we train for and we did it. And guys survived because of it.
Mike:So it was awesome.
Bryan:Yeah. That's so cool. So what was life like in Kandahar Airfield? I've heard the rocket attacks there could be pretty intense. Did you ever experience any?
Mike:Yep. One of my tours, we were actually counting how many rocket attacks versus how many missions we were flying And there were more rocket attacks than we had missions. And sometimes we'd have seven rocket attacks in one day, some days you'd have none. You'd be sleeping in the middle of night and all a sudden you hear a big boom go off. You kind of got acclimatized to it, which isn't the best thing to have happened.
Mike:Like, okay, Rocket Dats going on, get up, go to one of the shelters, wait for the all clear, then go back to bed. But I remember one time I was I was in the gym working out in the American gym. I was on the treadmill and the gym walls all got mirrors around them and it's a big big tent. And as I'm running with my earbuds and listening to music, you could feel the concussion of the boom kind of hit me in the chest. I'm on the and you could see all the mirrors kind of bow in and bow back out.
Mike:Wow. And immediately, like off the treadmill, everyone's hitting the deck. I'm like, okay, that one was closed. So after the first thirty seconds, people get up and they're all rushing outside to go into the shelters. I just beelined it down the road directly to our tent because the rest of the crew was there.
Mike:And they knew I was at the gym but they also knew that Rock Tactical was over by the gym. So I want to make sure they knew I was okay. But yeah, I hightailed it down the road back to our tent and there were two Hungarian I don't know if they were pilots but two Hungarian guys had gotten directly hit from that particular blast. They end up surviving but they suffered some pretty big wounds in their intestines. How do you
Bryan:feel living in a place where rocket attacks can happen at any time?
Mike:It's definitely nerve racking but you can't focus on it. Otherwise you're not going to be able to do your job. And like I said, they happen so often and 99% of the time not happening near where you are, you just become numb to it. And until one's happening really close to you, you just You don't really think about it. You just You hear the boom, Here goes the air raid sirens.
Mike:10 later, air raid sirens for all clear. Go back on with your day. Flip your page over. Keep reading your book. Yeah.
Mike:You couldn't focus on it. You really had to compartmentalize a lot of things when you're over there in order to do your job. From what you saw, from what you heard, for how you felt, not being at home, you really had to put it in its own little compartment and deal with it at a different time.
Bryan:Did that one feel different where it was so close?
Mike:Oh, it had my heart racing. Yeah. That one definitely caught my attention. But ironically after that, it just went back to being I mean, when I'm caught reading a book, here boom, I never really had any secondary effects from it.
Bryan:Okay.
Mike:It's like, I'm one of the lucky ones, keep going.
Bryan:Man, that's crazy.
Mike:It is. And again, compartmentalization is a a great thing to be able to do. Yeah.
Bryan:When Canadians were killed, they needed to be repatriated to Canada. You've already mentioned repatriation ceremonies. Did you take part in any repatriation flights? And can you explain their repatriation process?
Mike:Yeah. I took part in at least 70 repatriation parades, and I brought back or started the journey home for 13 of the Canadians who had fallen in Afghanistan. So how it would work is we get the message that one or more Canadian troops had been killed in action and that we needed to get the bodies from Kandahar to the base that we flew out of in The Middle East, just South Of Dubai, before they can be picked up by an airbus to be then brought back to China. So there would be a brief pay chasing ceremony on the ramp in Kandar and you'd have anywhere from 1,500, 2,000 troops, not just Canadians, Americans, Aussies, French, whoever was there would come out and we did this for every country that was having one, Would line up in two big groups on either side of the back of the plane and the bodies would be loaded on. And then we would take the bodies, fly the bodies to the Middle East.
Mike:We'd have another repatriation ceremony for the bodies coming off the plane to be put into storage until the Airbus can come pick them up, which is usually a couple days later. We'd have another repatriation ceremony for them to go on to the Airbus. And then when the Airbus arrived back in Trenton, there would be another repatriation ceremony for when the bodies came off and then replaced the hearses to be taken down Highway 401 to Toronto. So basically, for every group of fallen soldiers that there were, you generally would have four repat ceremonies. Sometimes it was three.
Mike:And one of my experiences, it a three repatriation ceremony because when we offloaded the bodies in out of the airbase in The Middle East, they literally went off the Hurricane onto the Airbus because the Airbus was already waiting. Okay. And then So they combined two into one.
Bryan:That makes sense. And how many repatriation parades did you say you've been to?
Mike:At least 70. I mean, even if you're not flying an actual ceremony yourself or a repat crew yourself, if you're not working, you're tending on the ramp, whether it's in Kandahar or it's in The Middle East, you're attending the parade as the body's arriving or departing. What's that like? Not fun. That's the area I had the hardest time dealing with with my time in Afghanistan, was the repatriation ceremonies.
Mike:And turns out, it wasn't so much the repatriation ceremonies that got to me. It was seeing the brothers in arms, sisters in arms of those who had fallen, hurting really bad. That tore me up. I carried that. What I found out later that I dealt with through mental health therapy was pent up grief for them.
Mike:I was grieving for them. I didn't have time to grieve for them. I had a job to do. I had to get in the plane and fly. Go in, compartmentalize, put it in the back of your mind, deal with it later.
Mike:Well, I chose to deal with it sixteen years later when it started really building up for me. And those weren't flights we ever wanted to do, but it was definitely a job we had to do.
Bryan:Mhmm. Do any of those repatriation flights stand out to you?
Mike:One does, specifically. I was at the end of my One of my tours. We had actually already handed in all of our flying gear. It was a day before we were leaving. The Airbus was already in the ramp in the base South of Dubai.
Mike:We're going home the next day and at 08:30 in the morning, we got the call that four soldiers had died and they needed a repent ceremony that night in order to bring them back for the Airbus to take home the next day. And there were no other crews available that could do it. The two crews that were up in Afghanistan were already flying around, so they were not available. And the other crew that was in Dubai was our replacement crew. They had just arrived, so they were not ready to go flying.
Mike:And so they asked us, can you guys go do this trip? And we said, if guys go and sign all our gear out for us and if they're able to preflight the plane for us, we can go to bed, you know, somewhat, get some sleep now because it was going be an all nighter that we were going pull to do this. Then we'll Yeah, of course. So that's exactly what we did. We went to bed, got about three or four hours of sleep.
Mike:We showed up one hour prior to takeoff, normally show up three hours prior to takeoff. We showed up one hour. We were handed over all of our gear that we had signed back in, We got right in the plane, fired up, flew into Kandahar, and then did the repatriation ceremony in in Kandahar on the ramp. And I remember once the parade was done, we would always give, again, the the brothers and sisters of the fallen time about five to ten minutes in the back of the plane to say their last goodbyes. And I remember looking in the back, seeing what, again, I knew it bothered me but as So I had to walk away from it.
Mike:I couldn't see it. And I looked over on the ramp and I saw this young captain and I recognized him from my time at RMC. It was captain Matt Daugh. I I knew Matt, not closely. He was in another squadron from myself.
Mike:I knew his brother, his older brother better, Vince, because he was in my squadron. So we knew of each other and he recognized me too. So I went over and and talked to him and I gave him my condolences for the loss of his men and I asked him how much time he had left in his tour and he said three weeks. I was like, oh, that was kind of the One of the worst times for any soldier going in and out is the first three weeks and the last three weeks. First three weeks, you don't know what to be cautious for the last three weeks.
Mike:Your guard gets let down. No, I'm not saying Matt let down is guard by any stretch of imagination. Let me make that very clear. Mhmm. It's just coincidence.
Mike:Later on, things went bad. So he said, yeah. So we shook hands. I went and, you know, jumped in the front end, fired the plane, flew the bodies into Dubai. Bodies were really offloaded from the Herc right onto the Airbus.
Mike:We handed into our gear as we're walking off the Herc to the guys that were waiting and we walked right onto the airbus and flew with the airbus all the way home. So now I'm seeing literally every repat parade for these four soldiers that had passed away. And when we got to Trenton, we obviously stayed on the plane while the bodies were unloaded and then put in the hearses where the families were and then they were taken away. About an hour later, we were able to get off the plane and see our families. And about ten days later, somewhere around there, I remember being at home, sitting on the couch, had a drink in my hand and I was watching CTV NewsNet and a news flash came up said, another Canadian soldier has been killed in Afghanistan.
Mike:At that point, I remember standing up and then the picture of the soldier popped up on the TV and it was Matt. And I remember, I dropped the glass and it shattered on the floor. My wife was in the kitchen at the time. She's like, what's wrong? And I just put on the TV and I said, I was just talking to him.
Mike:What do you do? So the things that had bugged me over the years were seeing the guys grieving for their their lost comrade Mhmm. And then regretting what I had said to him.
Bryan:Why do you regret that?
Mike:I know what I said didn't lead to him getting killed. But I just I just wish I'd never said, you know, be careful. I don't want to do one of these for you. That one line is wish is one of the things I wish I'd never said. And when I was going through therapy, I did written exposure therapy where you write out the whole event.
Mike:And those were the two things where I got very upset when I was writing them out. And I realized it wasn't just the it wasn't the whole repatriation somewhere that bugged me. It was those two concepts that really bugged me over the years. I mean, I just got a little bit upset recalling that now. But in the past when I would recall that memory, I would get a lot more upset.
Mike:And I've I've told this one to you before Mhmm. And you've seen how upset I've gotten in the past. So the therapy has definitely helped me deal with that grief a lot better than how I was feeling in the past about it.
Bryan:That's good. I'm really glad to hear that. We're already getting into this a little bit, but how has being around all that death and grief affected you?
Mike:Yeah. So over the years, definitely around Remembrance Day, you'd start seeing more images on the TVs, war movies, and such of past wars in Afghanistan war. And, you know, the memories of the repap parades would come up and I would get a little you know, start getting upset. Mhmm. And over the years, I I found, especially over this past year, this time last November, usually it was like the first, you know, ten days leading up to and then a couple days after.
Mike:And then you wouldn't really have anything any feelings pop up for the rest of the year. Last year, I kept having feelings pop up after Mhmm. November's Day, like watching Chicago Fire or Chicago PD or something where there was someone was killed and then there was grieving or there was a ceremony tied with it with grieving. Mhmm. That would get me upset.
Mike:Mhmm. And I realized that, it was becoming a problem. And it was something in And after having talked with you multiple times, you really encouraged me to go get seek some mental health help and I finally did. And I'm so thankful that I did do that. You know, it involved me getting grounded for six weeks over the summer.
Mike:I ever want to ground a pilot but yeah, you know, it's the steps I had to go through.
Bryan:Yeah. Sometimes you just have to.
Mike:Yeah. Sometimes you got to and it's a process I'm glad I went through and was able to address those feelings. Almost immediately when I was going through therapy, I found I was sleeping better at night. Mhmm. Not that I was ever had dreams about it, because I don't I haven't never had really dreams about my time in Afghanistan.
Mike:So I never really attributed the, you know, me getting only six hours of sleep at night as a as a trigger from what happened in the past. But I'd all of a sudden found I'm sleeping seven, seven and a half, eight hours at night, more consistently than I was previously. And I was feeling a lot better. I felt like the weight had been lifted off. But, yeah, being around all that death, it affects everybody differently.
Mike:Some people, they just walk it out. Some people, they can't see it ever again. I can't do repatriation ceremonies again. That's just something I You know, it's as disrespectful as it might be if I was told to do one. It's just I can't.
Mike:That's my limitation right there. I've done enough of those.
Bryan:You've done more than most as far as those go. Yeah.
Mike:I'm glad it's behind me. I'm glad I got the help that I needed and, moving forward.
Bryan:Remembrance Day is approaching. As it approaches, how has Remembrance Day changed for you over the years?
Mike:Like I said, the days leading up to it have in the past have been been upsetting. I haven't had any problems so far. But also in the past, I used to give presentations for kids at the schools about my time in Afghanistan. And seeing some of the pictures I would put in there, would get me upset as I'm talking to kids, but I try to keep that under control as much as I could. But I don't I don't do those I haven't done those in a while, but I'm very interested to see how this year goes Mhmm.
Mike:Compared to previous years.
Bryan:Yeah. You're kind of in unexplored territory now.
Mike:Yeah, I am. Like I've seen a few images on TV since since I'd gone through therapy there and, you know, someone dying, a ceremony even happening and it didn't didn't faze me anymore. So the fact that I'm looking at this, I'm like, okay, I'm watching TV and it's not upsetting me anymore, that that's good. So I've got hope for this coming year as to how I'll do. Yeah.
Mike:I'm sure at some point I'm gonna still feel a little upset but I really don't think it's going to be as bad as it's been in the past.
Bryan:Yeah. I'm really happy for you. That's awesome. So with Remembrance Day right around the corner, if you could say one thing to Canadians about Remembrance Day and our fallen, what would it be?
Mike:Never forget. Never forget the sacrifice that's been made, not just by those who have fallen, but then the families who are left behind. The sacrifice that they made. The sacrifice that the soldiers who did come home are still making in terms of dealing with mental health, doing their job for this country. And what their families are going through.
Mike:It's There's a lot of people who have put a lot on the line, risked everything so that we can live in a society that we get to live in. Because there's a lot of countries in this world that do not have the freedoms and the level of life that we get to experience. Mhmm. And it's sad that not everyone gets to experience that.
Bryan:Yeah. It's so easy to forget the ripple effects that the losses and injuries have on the people around. It's not just that soldier, it's all the people connected with them who feel that loss as well.
Mike:Absolutely. It's It goes a long way. That ripple effect goes a long way and affects a lot of people. So just always remember who's made those sacrifices.
Bryan:Okay. So we're going to end on a slightly lighter note and ask some questions we always ask. What is the most important thing you do to stay ready for the job?
Mike:Take time for myself. I said that before when I did pilot training, but even today, I've got a very busy job with staff work and being a chief check pod and checking guys out and teaching pilots such as yourself how to be instructors and testing them and getting ready for our new aircraft training fleets that we're gonna be getting in a couple years. But you always have to take time for yourself. There's always tomorrow. Whatever's happening today, it's at the end of the day.
Mike:It can wait till tomorrow, move on. But if you don't take time for yourself, you can't put forth that great effort into your job and into all those around you that they're expecting you to perform at. It's very critical you take time for yourself and do whatever it is that makes you relax. Yeah. For me, it's ice fishing or watching TV or being in the pool or being around a campfire.
Mike:Whatever it does for you to take your mind off of work and bring it down so you can be recharged for the next day, that's what you got to do.
Bryan:Yeah. I really like what you said about how it affects the others around you as well. That's one thing that I've always noticed about you is a big part of your passion is about is the student getting the best possible instruction? Are they getting the best possible learning experience? And it just It affects so much more than just yourself if you're taking care of yourself.
Mike:Absolutely. Every instructor is personally involved in the well-being of their students and not just their students but the students I see around them. We have a job and our job is to teach. We want to see our students succeed and if we see outside factors affecting their ability to learn, then we it's our obligation to step in and help solve those problems. We may not be able to solve those problems but then we can send the student off to get resolution to those problems so that they can be successful.
Mike:They can come back to training so they can be successful. It costs a lot of money to make a pilot and we don't want to waste that money and we want everyone to pass. We need everyone to pass. We need more pilots. So to be very cognizant of how our students are doing both performance wise on the course but also mentally, you can see when your students' attitudes all of a sudden change.
Mike:Something's just not quite right. And when you can pick up on those cues, because students will often not be very forthcoming with when stuff's going on. They think they can deal with the stuff in the background. You don't need to know as an instructor, but we can see it sometimes.
Bryan:You probably wouldn't be as able to do that kind of stuff if you were not also taking care of yourself and making sure you're at the top of your game.
Mike:Absolutely. You always have to know your own limitations. If you're at the point where you need to take a break, you got to call it what it is. Mhmm. If you don't know your own limitations, you you can't do be an effective in anything, whether it's to be an effective soldier or be an effective teacher.
Mike:You can't take care of yourself. You You're gonna lose out on that effectiveness.
Bryan:Yeah. Absolutely. So you have a lot of experience instructing young pilots. What would you say makes a good pilot?
Mike:The ability to adapt to an ever changing situation. I mean, we we teach students how to fly. We teach them how to land, take off, fly around, go up, go down, bad weather, good weather. But it's all kind of kind of a canned scenario and we do it again and again and again. We just drill in those basic procedures into you so it becomes second nature.
Mike:So that all of a sudden when You go out to do it for real and that from what you practice, the situation you practice in is changing constantly. You're now able to have the brain capacity to deal with the ever changing situation. And if you can't adapt to that changing situation, you just freeze up, you're not going to be successful. So those that are successful in the Canadian forces are those that can adapt to change on the fly without fail. They're the ones that are going to have the easiest time.
Bryan:Yeah. I agree with that. Okay. So we're on our final question.
Mike:We've changed it a little
Bryan:bit for today's topic and subject What advice would you give to young pilots who may encounter grief and loss in the line of duty?
Mike:Don't hide it. Don't hide the pain. Don't think you can deal with it on your own. There's tons of resources out there. People who are professionally adapt at dealing with this and helping you deal with this.
Mike:You'd be surprised how many people you're sitting beside every day at work
Bryan:Mhmm.
Mike:Who are going through the exact same thing Totally. And aren't seeing a thing. You help me open up to my problems.
Bryan:Yeah. We have to realize you're not alone, right?
Mike:Mhmm. And it's huge. And then when I went and got my therapy, I found out other guys that I was working with were going through their own things. Mhmm. So go get help.
Bryan:Yep. That's one thing that I learned when I realized I needed help was how many people around me were going through something similar. Mhmm. And just that feeling of I'm not alone. This is going to be okay.
Bryan:We can all get through this.
Mike:Yeah. It's huge. And by realizing a lot of other people are going through this stuff, it gets rid of the stigma behind it. Mhmm. You're not alone.
Mike:You're not Well, no one's looking down upon anybody for dealing with what's going on. Yeah. You know, if anything, I look more positively upon a person who understands I need help and is asking for help. I find it kind of ironic that up until where I finally asked for help, I was all about anyone working for me, go get help. Like with you, Brian, go get help.
Mike:It was so easy for me to tell people to go get help. Yeah. But then when I was on the one in the other side of the of the chair needing help, it was so much harder to ask for it. It was really scary. It was very scary because you start running these huge mind games.
Mike:Okay, if I ask for help, I'm going be out of a cockpit. I'm going to lose my career. I'm out of the military. It's all going to go down, down, down, downhill.
Bryan:-Yeah, you just catastrophize
Mike:the -Yeah, absolutely. And I totally did. And my wife can attest to that. -I absolutely was more concerned about my career than I was concerned about me. -Yep.
Mike:-And thankfully it got past that. -Mhmm. -And I'm one of the cases where I don't have to get out of the military. Was able to deal with it before it got to the point where it really did affect my job. Yeah.
Mike:And now I'm able to go back to my job.
Bryan:Yeah. So It's such a great success story.
Mike:Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate it.
Bryan:Mike, I just wanna thank you so much for being here today. And I know that some of these topics and questions are not easy for you. So I just really appreciate the courage that you've shown to come here and talk about that and I'm really excited to share this with Canadians.
Mike:Thanks for having me. And I know we've talked for quite a few years about doing this particular Mhmm. Discussion and I'm very glad that today we've we finally got to it.
Bryan:Yeah. Me too. Remembrance Day can be a hard time of year for our serving members, veterans, and their families. If you or someone you know is struggling right now, I'd like to encourage you to reach out to the Canadian Forces Member Assistance Program or SIF MAP. The number is 1802687708.
Bryan:I've used it in the past. Your chain of command does not find out you're using it. It is confidential, and they will hook you up with a specialist or therapist in your area. So please, if you need it, use it. That number again is 1802687708.
Bryan:I recommend you save it in your phone in case you or one of your peers or subordinates need it. Stay healthy out there. Okay. That's gonna wrap up our chat with Mike talking about his time in Afghanistan on the Hercules as well as his experiences with Remembrance Day. For our next episode, we'll be sitting down with my buddy Paul Goddard and talking about the c h one forty nine Cormorant and search and rescue in the Royal Canadian Air Force.
Bryan:Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard on the show, or would you or someone you know make a great guest? You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@gmail.com. Did you know that we make videos for every episode that we create? These videos feature footage from RCAF aircrew and personnel and provide some unique perspectives that you don't wanna miss. Check it out on all social media at at pod pilot project.
Bryan:As it is the week of Remembrance Day, we wanna remind you to try to get out and go to a Remembrance Day ceremony in your local community, or maybe check out your local legion and get to know your local veterans. As always, we wanna thank you for your time and for joining us this week and ask for your continued support in the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks for listening.
Bryan:Keep the blue side up.
Intro:See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.