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Traci Skuce is an established writer and author of the short story collection, Hunger Moon. She's also a story midwife --helping writers birth their stories so they can get them out into the world. In this episode we discuss the climate crisis; disrupting various systems; decolonizing the self/body; and the importance of grief and self-care. Many inspirations including: ‘what is your integrity as an artist/writer’, ‘exchange between self and story’, ‘colonized systems…challenge them narratively’, and grief – simply ‘wept at the base of a tree by the side of a river’…
Raining Revolution: JEDI in the Arts engages artists in a conversation about justice, equity, diversity and innovation in their respective field of arts. Arts is defined broadly and includes visual, literary, performing, design or new media.
Meharoona 0:05
You're listening to Raining Revolution JEDI in the arts. That's justice, equity, diversity and innovation in the arts. Tune in to hear conversations with various artists about these themes. Brought to you from CFUV 101.9 FM, and I'm your host Meharoona Ghani. Raining Revolution is coming to you from the traditional territories of the Songhees, Esquimalt and WSÁNEĆ peoples whose historical relationships continue to this day.
Traci Skuce is an established writer and author of the short story collection, Hunger Moon. She's also a story midwife, helping writers birth their stories so they can get them out into the world. Welcome, Traci. It's such a wonderful treat to have you join me today. I'd like to begin by asking you to please introduce yourself if you want to add more to what I just said. And also just to identify the indigenous territory you're joining me from.
Traci Skuce 1:37
Sure, I'm up here, on the unceded territories of the K’ómoks First Nations, colonially known as the Comox Valley. I've lived here for about 23 years 22 of those or 21 of those in Cumberland, which is just a little bit inland, and now I live in in Courtney. So I'm on a different, in a same watershed. I'm really thinking about water these days, because I'm noticing the levels of the lake that, you know, is the reservoir going down. I live near creek, a salmon bearing creek, that feeds into the Puntledge River and you know, just really attending to these bodies of water in my daily awareness, I guess.
Meharoona 2:29
We're all in this space of daily awareness, I think today, thinking about what does this mean in terms of the change in climate, the change in weather, the change in our environment, in our structures, where's this heading? Hopefully, there's been some positive outcome where people are more aware and making some kind of impact.
Traci Skuce 2:51
Absolutely. You know, I feel really fortunate here, that there are people, people gathering in community action to, to kind of care for, be caretakers of the watershed, because it's been it's, you know, strange on Vancouver Island, because a lot of in all of the, you know, apprehension of lands from the, the indigenous peoples that went into private holding. So unlike, even on the mainland, where there's Crown land, there's, like, our water is in private lands. It's really, really crazy. That idea of extraction, I've been really thinking about extraction. And, you know, colonial capitalist, patriarchy is like, all based on extraction; and so can we dream of, or, you know, return to systems that are not extractive, you know?
Meharoona 3:56
Yeah, I think we can if we really look closely at what does power and money mean to each of us, and how do we let go of that. And I think this kind of goes into our conversation today in some way perhaps. So I'd love to hear what do you think JEDI in the arts means to you?
Traci Skuce 4:21
Yeah, I've been really thinking about that. I think the individual words as we've been talking about this conversation, and you know, I'm a writer, so, that's my art media; even though I dabble in others. In the writing, in terms of justice, really, the responsibility to look at the systems were in and challenge and disrupt them in small and big ways. So an example would be, you know, in terms of justice, looking at, where, for me, you know, in my, in my life and my situation, what I have, yeah, I'm a woman who's was married for 20 years and recently separated, and so what has become really palpable, and in my body is this, like, awareness that the brilliance of these systems is that they get in our bodies, and we just in our conditioning, are re-playing and reinforcing them. And so the work as a writer is to, I think, begin to bring forward to these awarenesses and challenge them, challenge them narratively, because it's actually on the level of narrative that the stories that we tell, the stories that we don't tell, the stories that are reinforced in the culture, are the things that perpetuate injustice, are the things that perpetuate inequality. So as a writer, as an artist, I think that's why writers who are exiled or imprisoned because they are challenging the status quo, they are challenging the systems of power. And so I think, you know, as artists, that's our, that's our duty, that's our, you know, what, in whatever way, and that may be, like, articulating feelings and truths that are not welcome. In the culture, just as simple as that, because that's a disruption. You know, I articulate the level of my grief in a culture that doesn't allow for grief, then that is an act of... disruption, yeah, I was gonna say defiance, but it feels bigger than just defiance, but it challenges the status quo.
Meharoona 7:21
Yeah, I love the word disruption quite a bit. And I do see that in terms of in an art form, such as writing, it is choosing to disrupt the various systems and thoughts and ideas that some people may have or may not have, or haven't realized some of those thoughts. And you also talked about these systems go into our body. So there's two questions I have around this is one, how does one decolonize themself as a writer and an artist through the craft, realizing that we have these systems in our bodies, and in our thought patterns? We've all in some form or another have been colonized? Even if it's not directly, but we're carrying those systems in us. And two the other question is around narrative, and whose narrative, whose structure of the narrative have we been informed by?
Traci Skuce 8:35
Yeah, so the, I'll start with the body. One of the places I know Meharoona from is actually a long time ago, Women's Studies program at UVic, and really cool that we reconnected. And so there we were doing lots of reading about these systems of oppression and so on. And what amazed me was that I ended up in a marriage where we took on very gendered roles. Because of the children, because of financial, all of the things and, and kind of at the end of the marriage, realizing, oh my god, like I had this education, I've done all this work, and yet still, because, you know, if you look at family systems, and your nervous system, you are, doesn't matter how much you know intellectually, your nervous system has been calibrated to keep you safe. And what that often means and what that meant, for me is recreating patterns that were in my family origin that were patriarchal gendered construct that I just took into my, into my own life. And part of the challenge is having a partner too that wasn't fully willing to decolonize. So like compromising for safety, compromising for well, and also just the unconscious, the unconscious mind of that latches on to ideas of what keeps you safe. And so that's really what I mean by being, that these that these colonized systems are in our body, because they've been passed down generation to generation. And it often is happening pre verbally. And so the disruption comes when you begin to bring awareness. So even, and I think it's not enough to just intellectually speak of these things, it's important, but we need to actually get into our nervous system responses and, and reclaim them, essentially. And that's hard when there's there's perceived threats, there's the systems of power, money, you know, the fear of not having enough, the fear of being left, like these really primal kind of fears that, that keep the system going. Because if I fear that I don't have enough money, then I might go to the oil patch, and do a stint working for oil and gas, so I can quote unquote, feed my family. And then that just feeds that system. Right. So does that does that answer that question about bodily?
Yeah, yeah, it introduces many different perspectives and layers that you're carrying. Your craft is writing, my craft is writing, how then do we go into that area of the craft to make the disruption to change the narrative? And this leads back again to what you were saying about body and the nervous system and grief, part of that going into that disruption is then how does one, as an artist, how does that person ensure they have created plans for themselves for dealing with the grief, the trauma, the disruptions that they have encountered on a bodily level? And will go through that in turn, if they are writing about it. Yeah. So that that grief is going to get triggered. So I often think about, okay, what are we doing to deal with the grief and self care? So that's a question I'd like to ask you too, like from your experience, what have you done to ensure your care? And, I've been reading Hunger Moon, your book Hunger Moon, and there's some really beautiful, the short stories are amazing, and there's some lots of vulnerable stories in there. And, and I do wonder, you as the writer who wrote those, how did you, how did you deal with your own processes of, of taking care of your body?
Yeah, I think that's a really important question. It's one thing that I do with the writers I work with, I actually bring in a somatic experiencing counselor to give tools to attend to those big feelings that can feel overwhelming. I'm actually just reading Francis Weller's book The Wild Edge of Sorrow - and it's a lot about grief and the grief that we experience isn't often held or honored in this culture, in the culture of decolonization. So one of the things is really learning how to regulate to know when you're pushing too far into the grief in terms of writing. So what I mean by that is we can really trigger ourselves back into trauma. And so some tools to recognize that oh my gosh, I'm getting in over my head like I can't, I can't go there right now. Really a lot of tenderness toward ourselves. And I think sometimes we think we just have to, like, dive in and poke the wound and rip it apart, and I mean, I have a practice of yoga that I've been a yoga practitioner for my most of my adult life, and so I do a lot of laying down, actually, on my back on my bolster, eye pillow over my eyes, hands on my heart, on my belly, so that on a very basic level, connecting with breath, using tools that that bring you into the present. Sometimes just looking around, like if you're, if you're writing, and you're feeling triggered, you can pause and put your hands on your heart and take a couple of deep breaths, and when you feel ready to open your eyes, and slowly look around the room, and notice what you notice. You know, and ask yourself, am I safe, am I safe? And so those are really, you know, just some basic tools. I also, I also have worked with a therapist, and I have very good friends who can hold space for me and hold me in that grief. And so that's been, you know, that's really important. And one of the things Francis Weller talks about is when we can be witnessed in our grief, and held in our grief. So, and if you don't have that, those people in your life sometimes being in the natural world, you know, like this beautiful mother that we live on, like she can hold it. And I have often done that, like wept at the base of a tree, by the side of a river. And, there's, there's something in the presence of being in the natural world, that is a resource. And by that I don't mean an extraction, but a place where we can revitalize, resource ourselves. So those are some things that are ways that we can we can take care of the body as we move into these vulnerable states. I think probably, as I was writing Hunger Moon, there is a part of me, I do have a part of me that's like, just go in and like, dig, you know, but as I get older, I recognize that that is not always wise action, and that to really tend to the tender heart is, is important. And even in conversation with the grief, like can you speak to the grief and ask it, what it what it means, what it wants. Even in writing, right, like I listened to this woman who said if you ask the question, and then you go to another part of the room and write the answer, right, this other part of yourself has the opportunity to speak. So that's that's what I would say for for self care.
Meharoona 18:31
It's so beautiful. You said and I think it's so important that you brought up around grief. And, and that it's not often held or honored. And it's I believe more conversation needs to happen around grief. Coming back to now, the other part of the question that asked earlier around the narrative, the structure of when I say structure, it's it's, it's sort of, it's the system of getting published. And, and within that system is the structure of of how we are doing our art. So for example, it could be through, like, let's say creative nonfiction, or nonfiction as a genre, or fiction, or poetry, lyrical prose, or I don't know, whatever we want to call all these genres. So my question in that is always the who has created those definitions? And who is deciding what fits or doesn't fit? Given that we need to think about decolonizing. And given that we're also trying given the fact that grief is not often held or honored. Emotions are not often held or honored, in terms of the person who is doing the art, but also once the material, if you find a publisher or system that honors your grief for who you are, as an artist can take care of you after you're published. Do you see what I mean?
Traci Skuce 20:16
Let's start with the let's start with the art part, I'm really loath to say producing part, but the creating part, that's where I get it, I gotta say, actually, I would say that the word production and people not feeling productive is a very colonized, it's a very capitalist kind of colonized word called colonial word. And what I see a lot, because I have a Facebook group, with lots of different writers coming in, and what I hear a lot is this is kind of like horse before, the cart before the horse. How am I gonna get published? And I say, well, what have you written? Where have you, you know, and maybe they they're really early on in the draft, but this kind of willingness to compromise what is true for them for the publication that they have, you know. And so I think that that comes with, and some people are into genre writing. And that's, that's absolutely fine. But that there is a kind of, what are they called templates of how the story is supposed to go. And I really, I really, really struggle with this idea of how the story is supposed to go. I do think there are things stories need, not universally, but I think there's and usually it has to do with a kind of grappling with a question or, or some sort of, it has to have some sort of movement, I would say, you know, but even even stillness can be beautiful. Mavis Gallant writes this beautiful story called When We Were Nearly Young, and I'm like amazed at it because nothing really happens until the very end of the story. And I just love that she did that, that there's a kind of stasis, it's a story about stasis. Anyway, I digress. So this hunger for publication, I think comes from a need to be seen, and a need to be heard, and to share our stories. And for sure, I have had that as well. And I think the challenge or the problem is when we think then our story has to look a certain way, or be a certain way. I had a young woman who's writing a memoir, say to me, you know, she's written her memoir and vignettes. And she said, but I keep hearing that if it's my first book, I should write it like X, Y, Zed, and I, but that breaks my heart. It's like, don't break your heart. Don't break your heart to compromise for some idea, because we can get really run around by the ideas other people have about how our work should be. And I think that's true in life too of we can get run around by how other people think we should be. And so our story, there's such we get to the idea of diversity, there's so many stories, and so many ways to tell a story. And I would say what a story needs is resonance. And so how to create that resonance is really the task of the Writer. How to create the resonance so that the emotional transmission can happen between the reader and the writer. And it's, as a writer, if I if someone told me I can, you know, I think there's beauty in form, the poets like there, there's that there's not one form. There's not one way to do there's not as you were saying, with fiction create, I write fiction, but a lot of my fiction is, you know, marginally nonfiction. So, the lines that somebody who has drawn them and how do we want to challenge them and we may challenge them within the structure, we may change them in the structure, subvert the structure or give space to emotion that that isn't that valid, considered valid in the colonized culture, into the structure, or we may create new structures or experiment with structures, different ways to tell the story.
Meharoona 25:18
I think it's so important what you said about resonance and emotional transmission that happens between the writer and the reader. And that's something very important in the sense of, if you take away all the sort of labels, you're left with these human emotions, and I think those human motions can go across all the labels that that we can all as writers and readers can feel. And it's tapping into those emotions. I think that makes the piece strong, whatever piece you're working on.
Traci Skuce 25:57
Yes. And I think if we circle back to the idea of publication, this product, right, I've heard someone called books, products, and I, I, you know, we're just creating a product. And I thought, no, that's not what I want to do, you know, I'm not creating a product, it's cool, like I have a book, I have a physical form for my, for my work. I don't know, I think probably a lot of publishing houses are thinking in terms of product. And I think the danger comes when the writer actually thinks product, too. I mean, I feel like integrity is a very, is a very important value to me, as an artist, like what is your integrity. And to stay true to that, to stay true to that, because I think this is where this idea of, I'll never get published, or I'll never, like, I really believe if your story, if you if you've crafted in a way that the resonance comes through, it will find a home, and it will reach the people that it needs to reach, it may take a while. And it may take a lot of drafts. And it may take a lot of seeking the publishing or if you choose to Self Publish. But I think that that's an important piece is staying integris to your vision.
Meharoona 27:41
We've, we've gone through a circle of many topics that are beautiful, important and needed. How have you evolved through your art, you touched on it a little bit from when, at the time when you wrote Hunger Moon, and how you wanted to just deep dive into the writing? How have you evolved as an artist?
Traci Skuce 28:04
Well, I think the biggest thing is actually recognizing who I am as a writer, as an artist, in terms of needing a lot of space, and, and to be patient with myself. So that idea of productivity is really strong. And I went through a tremendous period of change during the pandemic, I held a lot of grief. So recognizing the need for that space, and letting myself write from the raw space of difficulty and not feeling it has to be anything right now. So that that that permissio, you know, there's part of me that just like wants to wants to turn it into a story and that product immediately, but trusting the process. And I know I think I hated hearing that when I was a younger writer - trusting the process. But that the process is a really long game. And that if you are a writer or any other type of artist that it has kind of sometimes you look around and you go oh god, she's turned out another book and I'm like, you know, my first one came out at 50 or whatever it is. That there's a kind of seasonal movement through the work itself and it's okay to not know what your next project is going to be. It's okay to even wonder if you're still writer, you know, and it's just filled notebooks. And that is okay. Whereas for so long, at like 20 something years, I was so driven to write, you know, and it took me a long time to get that book out. And now, I think now that it's out there is a kind of relax around, and curiosity well, is there going to be a next book? What would that look like? And, you know, just like a kind of more space for curiosity. And, you know, this kind of, I was having a conversation with a friend who said, well, you should write a novel. And I thought, I don't know, if I have a novel in me, I don't know, I don't want to just churn out a novel because someone thinks I should write a novel, you know, that's not, at this moment, my form or my interest. So really, again, that back to that integrity, and, and that checking in with the body, and all those things come into decolonizing myself from the idea of how I think it should be.
Meharoona 31:18
That's a great evolution that you've gone through. And I think a lot of writers, artists go through these various questioning of oneself and evolving.
Traci Skuce 31:32
It's so interesting, you know, and I know a bit about your process, and, and one thing that I did learn with Hunger Moon, and I think I carry forward is that really, the exchange between self and story is really profound. And I think that's understated - how much the story works on us, I mean, someone could read Hunger Moon and an afternoon, or maybe, you know, maybe a little longer. I put years into some of those stories, years. And so they are, the value I see is that, and the evolution, the beauty of it is actually in the exchange between the narrative and the self. And the resonance, and, you know, accessing that resonance is part of that exchange. So whether it goes out into the world, which, you know, I do hope your book gets out into the word world, Meharoona, because I want to read it. But that richness that you have received from the work itself is, is the most beautiful gift of the, of the process.
Meharoona 33:01
Oh, yeah. And the exchange between self and story, resonance, I resonate with that what you've just said. We've talked about this evolution, the relational, I wanted to just switch track a little bit to ask you what is your big dream?
Traci Skuce 33:21
I really dream, and I might start crying, really is that is for the awakening, awakening of humanity to the beauty that is this world. And that we kind of wake up from the anesthetists, the you know, the anesthetized systems that we're just sleeping under and moving through and reclaim ourselves as, you know, creative human beings living on this dynamic, incredible planet. So that's my that that really is my big dream. Some days I despair. Yeah, it feels like a crazy pickle that we're in. And the hope or the vision really is that humans are creative, and humans have dreamed themselves out of impossible situations before and so I really look to writers like Adrian Marie Brown, who speaks about creating, creating a new world through art, through community, through visioning. Like we're living someone else's dream right now. So can we change, the change the dream?
Meharoona 34:54
That's a beautiful dream to have and I believe we can. I believe, I believe humans can. Is there any new project you're thinking about, or perhaps working on?
Traci Skuce 35:07
Yes, I am, I am working. I have, you know, I could probably tell my, my great love and concern is for this planet. And so I am leaning into stories that address climate change, and about marriage dissolution and climate, but also, you know, in what I just said, where where is hope? Where is beauty in this world that is very troubled, and how the kind of stress the planet is under in the stress the relationships that we have are under and the resilience that we may may or may not find in some of those relationships. So, that's, that's my current leaning. Just a small, you know, light light read.
Meharoona 36:12
It's timely, though.
Traci Skuce 36:13
Absolutely.
Meharoona 36:15
Yeah, I look forward to what may come out of your exploration around that. Hopefully it's a book.
Traci Skuce 36:23
Yeah, I will see. Yeah.
Meharoona 36:28
Where can folks find out more about you or your work?
Traci Skuce 36:32
Yeah, so I have a website, TraciSkuce.com. And that's Traci with an 'i'. And then I also have a Facebook group, which people it's free, and people are, are invited to join. It's called 'the writers journey'. In there, I do all sorts of challenges. Mehaoona has done some master classes, teachings. So I have I have free stuff in there. And then I also run courses.
Meharoona 37:06
Is there anything else you'd like to share about anything? Any questions you might have of me anything? Yeah, anything you'd like to share?
Traci Skuce 37:16
You know, I just really feel blessed, Meharoona, for us to have found each other again, in this crazy world and have these conversations. The richness of the conversations and your deep intelligence and commitment to, to your art and to holding space for other artists is really beautiful. And I honor you in that. So thank you.
Meharoona 37:47
Oh, thank you. Well, I'd really like to thank you, Tracy, for joining me today with me on this show. I consider myself really blessed as well that I ran into you in different capacities, different venues, different ways. Yoga also. So and more importantly, now as a writer, it's just it's just incredible how, how I don't, I never use the word coincidence, I feel there's always a purpose. There's always a reason when things happen. And the fact that we we got re-reconnected is not a coincidence. It's a beautiful, beautiful, what's the word I'm looking for? A beautiful accident.
Traci Skuce 38:38
Serendipity
Meharoona 38:41
Serendipity is a better word. Yes. Yeah. So thank you so much for making time to join me and I really appreciate it and yeah, so I hope I hope we will stay in touch and keep going. And I wish you luck with all your work, and for your next project, whatever that unfolds to be.
Traci Skuce 39:04
Thank you so much, Meharoona, and thank you everyone for listening.
Meharoona 39:12
Thank you for listening to Raining Revolution, JEDI in the arts. For contact information of the guests or to listen to other podcasts, please visit CFUV podcast.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai