The DC Beer Show | Praise Cantillon but Damn The Hazies with Chuck Cook

Get ready to dive into the deep end of the beer pool with The DC Beer Show!

Belgian beer buffs, take note: Chuck Cook of Drink Belgian Beer (https://drinkbelgianbeer.com) preps us for his trip to Cantillon Zwanze Day in Brussels and corrects Jake's misconceptions about that fine brewing establishment. He might make our Jordan sad with his harsh words for Hazy IPAs, though. (He really doesn't like Hazys.)

But Chuck's a knighted Belgian beer expert who's been to Belgium more than 40 times! So you won't want to miss his insights.
First up though, Mike, Brandy, and Jake crack open NRG's German-style Kosch Service —think small, endlessly refilled glasses until you say "stop!" And don't miss Silver Branch's traditional service, either. But the events foam over with the Cantillon Zwanze Day at Sovereign if you can't join Chuck in Brussels, showcasing a two-year seaweed adventure in brewing that's been taking a deep dive—literally underwater!

Seaweed in beer? You bet! From gin to saison, including Josh Chapman and Right Proper Brewing Company, seaweed is in.

Looking for something hoppening? Events coming up include Superlatives Week at Other Half, the Women's Brew Culture Club shindig at Commonwealth, and the DC Beer Bottle Share. Get the details at https://DCBeer.com/events.

Want to join us for the momentous 100th episode live podcast recording member appreciation bash? Join DC Beer at https:patreon.com/dcbeer for you invitation to this exclusive event!

Grab your preferred goblet, stein, or can, settle into your comfiest chair, and tune in for a Belgian beer bonanza with a side of crafty camaraderie on this episode of The DC Beer Show! Cheers to beers and the stories that bubble up around them!

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Creators & Guests

Host

Brandy Holder

This southern girl got a late start in the beer world, but with such a bold and intoxicating personality behind the name, booze was destined to be a part of her endeavors.

Host

Jacob Berg

Jake’s beer education began when his dad brought home a 6-pack of Brooklyn Lager in the mid-90s. It was love at first sip.

Host

Mike Stein

Michael Stein is President of Lost Lagers, Washington, DC’s premier beverage research firm. His historic beers have been served at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History and the Polish Ambassador’s residence.

Producer

Richard Fawal

President of DC Beer Media LLC and Publisher of DCBeer.com and The DC Beer Show

What is The DC Beer Show?

The official podcast of DCBeer.com! This is a show about breweries: the business, the beer, the craftspeople who run them and the drinkers who love them. Join us as we speak with brewers, brewery owners, and all kinds of folks involved in the craft beer scene.

Jacob Berg [00:00:06]:
Welcome everyone to The DC Beer Show. We are @DCBeer across social media. Mike Stein. What's in your stein this warm breezy eve?

Michael Stein [00:00:15]:
I am drinking a German style dark lager from Port City, better known as Doppelbock. It's the Doppelbock from Port City Brewing Company. Brandy, my friend, my good homie, what are you drinking?

Brandy Holder [00:00:33]:
The day that we're recording this is Tuesday, April 16th. And for those who may not remember the weather that day, because this comes out on Friday, let me just tell you that it was patio weather. It was the epitome of patio weather. It was 70 degrees, perfectly breezy. No mosquito somehow still in sight. So Brandy Patio weathered the shit out of some beers tonight, so I started the evening with the Blue Jacket Essex, the ESB, 4%, you know, not and I'm I'm sharing these with other people And then Shout

Jacob Berg [00:01:09]:
out to Valley Mall. Yes. Guess, guess from last time.

Brandy Holder [00:01:13]:
And then we cracked open this lovely and what I assume is Mosaic Hops in there because I tasted and smelled them, but it doesn't say it on a label, So Peabody Heights work on that, but this, West Coast IPA, Zeb's Lucky Lich, Peabody Heights West Coast IPA, Fucking delicious. Oh my god. It was so good. I was like, oh my god. This is death maverick in here. And then I'm finishing the evening with the cimmer cimmerian, the dark check lager from Commonwealth. This is my last can of this, my sweet, sweet baby. And speaking of Commonwealth, make sure that you all come out to the Women's Free Culture Club event on May 4th, which is the Star Wars day.

Brandy Holder [00:02:01]:
So, we'll be we'll be there hanging out on May 4th at Commonwealth. Okay. Yes.

Michael Stein [00:02:07]:
Checked out water. I'm in through culture club, May 4th

Brandy Holder [00:02:12]:
Yes, sir.

Michael Stein [00:02:12]:
At Commonwealth.

Brandy Holder [00:02:13]:
Yeah. Jake. Come through. What's, what's what are you drinking? Probably lots of stuff.

Jacob Berg [00:02:18]:
No, Brandy. You didn't have to go that hard on a Tuesday, but I love it.

Brandy Holder [00:02:23]:
I'm allowed to do that. I'm a grown ass woman. It is patty weather. Yeah, a grown

Jacob Berg [00:02:28]:
ass woman. Yeah.

Michael Stein [00:02:29]:
If you wanted to do it, you have to do it with respect.

Brandy Holder [00:02:31]:
And you know what? And I've I the today was the debut, the debut of my overall shorts attire, which if you know me, you've seen me in these overall shorts, and that is all I wear during the entire of the entirety of the summer. I swear to God. So I had to celebrate them coming out of the storage. Right? They had to free themselves, so I cheers them with some beers. Dick.

Jacob Berg [00:02:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. Drinking. That's what we do. That's what we do best. We drink. We know things. I have here the 2021 a Lagash once upon an orchard.

Jacob Berg [00:03:08]:
It is, their cool shipped saison, and then aged upon, a whole bunch of peaches for about 4 months.

Brandy Holder [00:03:17]:
Millions of peaches?

Jacob Berg [00:03:19]:
Millions of peaches peaches Wow. For me because

Brandy Holder [00:03:22]:
I am the one who's changing.

Jacob Berg [00:03:24]:
But not for free. Although, actually, hashtag sample. This comes from Allagash for free. Thank you to Alex Rosen and to Brett and the Allagash team. I did not claim this on my 2021 taxes.

Michael Stein [00:03:41]:
And then Oh. Jake is early for Saison Day. You are having a Saison. It's a bit early for Saison day, but pressed beer thank you, Allagash, for sending us pressed beer. That being said, Jake, what's your take on this Saison with peaches?

Jacob Berg [00:03:58]:
It is lovely for being, 2 plus years old. The peach really comes across a lot more apricot y now. It's got great delicate coronation. It's probably at this point a bit more white wine and oak than it is peach. And if you told me it was apricot, I would have believed you, except that it's called Once Upon an Orchard, and the label has a giant peach on it without James. But, Mike, as you mentioned, Alagaz Cezanne is coming up. And the day after that, 4/28, Hellbender, Isaac Bell, formerly city, City Brutours, Rauchbier collaboration at Hellbender, Sunday, 4 28.

Brandy Holder [00:04:48]:
I'll be there.

Jacob Berg [00:04:48]:
Brandy, they didn't bring back grandpas for us.

Brandy Holder [00:04:51]:
You know,

Jacob Berg [00:04:51]:
we we love the copper fox, the the smoked malt.

Michael Stein [00:04:55]:
We're gonna show up. We're gonna show out. Come through to Hellbender 428. Come support Ben and LT. Come support Isaac. You know we'll be there.

Brandy Holder [00:05:03]:
Yeah. Speaking of 4 4 twenty ish ish, next week, the week of 4 23, 4? I don't know. Whatever dates are. Other half is doing superlatives week. The like, like, spirit week, where they're gonna dress up as twins or, like, best dressed or, basically, like, high school promie kind of shit. So they're going to do buy 1, get 1 beers. So if you come and dress as a twin on a Friday, you'll get a buy one, get one beer. And then if you wear your other half swag or other half tattoo or whatever on Saturday, you'll get, you know, a discount on your flight, beer.

Brandy Holder [00:05:43]:
And so I I shout out to other half for trying to bring some spirit to the city. So

Michael Stein [00:05:49]:
Respect.

Brandy Holder [00:05:49]:
Yeah.

Michael Stein [00:05:49]:
Respect. Most likely to drink Doppelbock all year? Yours truly, Michael Stein.

Brandy Holder [00:05:58]:
Mhmm.

Michael Stein [00:05:59]:
Most likely to have smoke beer 7 nights a week, Brandy Holder. Most likely to have Saison 7 nights a week, Jacob Scoopsburg. We're here for it. We love it.

Brandy Holder [00:06:10]:
I love when breweries incorporate herbs into their beers. I am such a huge fan. I mean, rosemary is my favorite, but, you know, just any sort of, like, tea or, you know, any sort of, like, simple herb even even even if it's just like a wisp. And you know who does that really well? Urban Garden. And we were asking what Urban Garden's been doing recently.

Brandy Holder [00:06:33]:
You know, I saw Imani a few months ago,

Brandy Holder [00:06:33]:
then I just, recently. You know, I saw Emani a few months ago, then I just saw that she's doing a collab with Valor. Did you guys see that?

Michael Stein [00:06:42]:
We saw it. It's happening. It's coming down the pike. Can't wait to get to Valor to support Urban Garden. Even more so, can't wait for Urban Garden to open up so we can support them at their HQ.

Brandy Holder [00:06:57]:
It's gonna be a huge deal. Like, I'm so excited. It's gonna

Jacob Berg [00:07:01]:
be a big to do. Yeah. Alright. Before other half spirit week, we've got a couple NRG events to hit up. One of them is gonna be this Sunday over at Shelter, actual German style Kosch Service. Stein, who's gonna be there? What are they gonna be pouring?

Michael Stein [00:07:22]:
It's happening with fry guys beer culture. You might know Freiegeist beer culture from Germany. Now they have breweries. They have contract beers. They're brewing all over the world, sometimes in Brazil, sometimes in the US. Sebastian Sauer, Sebastian Sauer, is the owner of Freygeist. He had told NRG, our homies, Greg Anger, Tim Lou, and Bruno Jumois, they had been planning this Kosch service for quite some time. If you don't know, in Cologne, the home of couche or kolsch beer, as we say in the states, they keep bringing you these small servings of Kolsch, the golden style ale slash lager.

Michael Stein [00:08:06]:
Tastes like a lager fermented like an ale. Brewed in Germany, they keep serving them to you until you put your coaster over your beer and you say, das Kapoort. You say, done. I'm out of here. So, anyways, our friends down at shelter are gonna be serving this. They're gonna do a coast coast style service, which means they're gonna keep serving you beer until you say done, with fry guys beer culture. We're very excited for it because it's a little sliver of kohlung, kohl, German beer culture in the district, and we'd love it when we have beer service from abroad, broad stateside. PS, if you're listening in Germany, Czechia, South Africa, Seoul, Korea, we're ready for some more international beer style beer culture services.

Jacob Berg [00:08:54]:
And if you missed that one, Silverbranch is going to do their traditional service in May with their culture. So fear not. You've got at least 2 chances. The other NRG event is Saturday. That's tomorrow, listeners. It's day where everyone goes to sovereign and drinks a bunch of Cantillon. I have thoughts on this. This year's Cantillon is a 2 year old beer brewed with sea lettuce, like a seaweed, and the entire operation is somehow aged underwater.

Jacob Berg [00:09:32]:
I assume that the cask is lined with some sort of pitch to make it somewhat water resistant, but that sounds kinda weird. I don't really know how the that's gonna shake out. But, obviously, all the Cantillon stuff's gonna be there. Guys, is Cantillon running out of ideas? What's up with this seaweed beer aged underwater?

Brandy Holder [00:09:53]:
Don't hate on the seaweed stuff because I have 2 bottles of seaweed gin in my house right now, and is those are probably my go to gins. So you, in fact, Jake, are the one that brought the what one of the ones to me. So don't I was

Jacob Berg [00:10:11]:
gonna say, don't knock it. Who's your seaweed gin mule?

Brandy Holder [00:10:14]:
It is you. At first, it was Mike Lestort. Shout out to Lestort. But, don't knock it until you try it. Don't don't yuck somebody's yum. I might like it, Jake. What what are your thoughts on it, Mike?

Michael Stein [00:10:25]:
Well, I would tell you that Cantillon's running out of ideas, but maybe okay. Definitely not. Antion is turning to, write proper and Black now is bringing me seaweed Saison. So I was talking to Josh Chapman who actually the first Black Narrows beer came from Right Proper Brewing Company. Josh is currently brewing one day a week now at Right Proper Brewing Company, but Josh brought some sea lettuce. So it's really wild to see a tiny, you know, 5 barrel small batch beer be replicated at Cantillon. And, if stainless steel is seaworthy, I suppose you could age some stainless steel vessels underwater. So I'm just letting it be known that perhaps Cantillon's not running out of ideas, but they are running into the good ideas in the DC beer world, and they're just replicating a, Black Narrows right proper beer.

Michael Stein [00:11:28]:
I mean, it's sustainable

Jacob Berg [00:11:30]:
Should we hang the right proper beer, like, underwater from, say, like, a crab trap or, like, an oyster, like, one of those, like, floating oyster,

Brandy Holder [00:11:38]:
the Marylanders was Marylanders would love that for sure.

Michael Stein [00:11:42]:
Yeah. I would I would I would never out my, Navy Yard, Buzzard Point, Southwest, Southeast fisher fisher people, fishermen, fisherwomen, fisher they, them. But I let's just say I know some people.

Jacob Berg [00:11:58]:
Alright. We're gonna talk more about Cantillon with our guest, the Belgian beer expert, Richmond's very own, the knight, mister Chuck Cook. Welcome. Chuck, what are you drinking this lovely evening?

Chuck Cook [00:12:12]:
I'm having a Brasserie Cantillon Signorino. It's 2 year old Lammerich macerated with Sandeum, a sage, grapes from Italy. It's a collaboration with 1 Fruey, Mono, and Cantillon. It's really, really pretty amazing.

Jacob Berg [00:12:27]:
And is that being brought in by Richmond's very owned Reverie, via Lime,

Chuck Cook [00:12:32]:
or is

Jacob Berg [00:12:32]:
or is that a Chuck Cook personal?

Chuck Cook [00:12:34]:
That's that that's a personal import. That would you can't find. No. That's definitely one of the specials. So Reverie does a good job of bringing a lot of candy on to us. It doesn't last very long when it comes in, but, I buy as much as I can afford.

Jacob Berg [00:12:46]:
So we're gonna keep it Cantillon because this drops on Friday 19th. And the next day, 20th, is Zwansea Day. Yes. Will you be participating?

Chuck Cook [00:12:58]:
Yes. I will be flying to Brussels on Thursday night, arrive on Friday morning by 7:30 AM, get my hotel dropped back, go immediately to Cantillon for warm up day, because you've got you can't just fly in for an event like that. You gotta have a warm up day and acclimate Europe. And then I'll be there 10 AM, probably 9 AM, Saturday morning because it'll probably be a big line to get into Cantillon. So I will be there for the second time. I was there in September 21 as well.

Jacob Berg [00:13:25]:
So this year's Zwontoday release is a 2 year old beer brewed with sea lettuce, and the casks are aged underwater on a bed of abalone?

Chuck Cook [00:13:42]:
Yeah. I've definitely seen that, and it looks very interesting. It's something different than they've ever done. I look forward to trying it. I know I've read the descriptions of it being a little more salty. It's not gonna be fruity like some of the other things they've done. Of course, last year, they did a black pepper one. That was very different.

Chuck Cook [00:13:58]:
So, yeah, I mean, every year they're coming up with something different, and they never seem to run out of ideas about something new to try.

Jacob Berg [00:14:05]:
That was gonna be my next question is, so we've seen, gorilla peppers. We're we're now seeing sea lettuce. Are they in danger of running out of ideas?

Chuck Cook [00:14:14]:
No. They'll never run out of ideas. They'll never run out. I mean, you think about it, the number of different things they could do between fruits and berries and sea lettuce and black pepper, and you expand that, they'll never run out of ideas, for Zwanze. And Zwanze now is every other year, so they only have to think about it every 2 years. So, no, they're not gonna run out of ideas for that. And, it's it's yeah. The number of things they can think of is is expanded.

Chuck Cook [00:14:40]:
And so I look forward to trying, this year. It's gonna be very interesting.

Jacob Berg [00:14:43]:
I'm gonna say something inflammatory that for the most part, I believe, and I'm not being trollish, Cantillon is overrated. Their stuff is very, very good, but it's inconsistent compared to Dre, compared to Tilquin, and it is harder to get, and that is why people like it more.

Chuck Cook [00:15:06]:
I disagree completely with that. I think it's definitely superior to a lot of stuff than the other ones are doing. And there's some things I don't like. It's not every beer like the the one with grilled peppers. I'm not a big pepper fan at all, and they have made a new one that's less peppery this year. I'll try it when I get there. Obviously, I haven't had it yet, but there's some things you can't like every beer from a brewery. That's never going to be the case.

Chuck Cook [00:15:29]:
But what they do, they do extraordinarily well, and they never put out anything that's not really, really good to me. Nothing's too acidic, which some other brewers will do, unfortunately. So, I kind of disagree. I think Cantillon. Cantillon and Tilquin are really up there, very high, doing a lot of different fruited things and berry things. Some of the things are, you know, a little crazy, but those are 2 great breweries. I think Canton's one of the best because when they really do some of the fruit and berry things like Sang Bleu, Lou Pepe Kriek, Lou Pepe framboise, they're phenomenal. Now, is their lambic better than everybody else's lambic, their base lambic? No.

Chuck Cook [00:16:11]:
Is their Geuze better? It's as good, but is it better than Oud Beersel or Boon or or some of the other ones like that? No. They're all really, really good. Geraldine is incredible. It just depends on what you're looking at. Where they shine is what they take that canvas and they paint something on it, and it's the fruited fruited things and the berry things that really stand out and are never too acidic and incredibly fruity. Anyway, that's my opinion.

Jacob Berg [00:16:39]:
I think that's fair enough and well said. I am going to defer to you in this because you are the Belgian beer expert. In fact, last year, you were united by the Belgian brewers of the mash staff.

Chuck Cook [00:16:52]:
Yeah. I was after writing about Belgian beer for 21 years, I was finally knighted. Beer riders don't get knighted quite as much as, let's say, if you're if you own a beer bar or if you're a distributor in a beer store, you have to have somebody nominate you. And you have to have that person has to be a brewer, and then you have to have somebody who's a brewer to second that nomination. So I talked to Frank Boone about it, and he said, oh, I'm not gonna nominate you. And then Willem van Haraway, and he finally did come and said, I'm gonna second that. So, boom, I went in a 100% lambic to get knighted, which I thought was pretty classic because I'm specializing in lambic the last 10 years. Not that I don't love drinking, Orvall and Rochefort and Westlake and then things like that, but I really love Lambic a lot too and Saint Laurent too.

Chuck Cook [00:17:34]:
Really special experience, 2 day process off the ground place and, cathedral where they read the names all the nights who had passed in the last year, the procession of nights down to, another building off the Grand Place. And following that's all over, you get to go out and actually drink. So it's a little bit of a process there and finally ends up with, you know, at the beer fest, in Brussels, which is really cool.

Jacob Berg [00:17:57]:
And so I wanna back up because this, I believe, is going to be your 40 somethingth trip to Belgium. How did you get interested in Belgian beer? Like, how did this all start for you?

Chuck Cook [00:18:09]:
So this trip will be 44. I'm at 43 now. I was in Spain in 1991, so I'm ancient. And I was in San Sebastian, and we're drinking things like a stray golisia, which isn't a decent enough Spanish lager. And I went into a place I kinda got bored of that and said, what else can I find here? And I went to a place and here was a cooler full of these things with these weird looking labels. So I said, what is this? Case essay? What was essay? And they're like, cerveis de belchica. And so I started trying some of these beers that were 7, 8, 9, 10%. Found them really interesting.

Chuck Cook [00:18:42]:
I'm from North Carolina. At that point, we couldn't buy a beer over 6%, so I didn't know these beers existed. So that really opened my eyes up in 91. I went back in 93, backpacked Spain in Portugal for 2 months. Every time I went to a town or a city, I'd say Domestalla Cerviceria, find a place like, it would just be a place with a cooler full of Belgian beer, and I would taste whatever I could. That was fun. 94, I went to Belgium for the first time. So that's how I got into Belgium beer in Spain.

Jacob Berg [00:19:11]:
And so you come back stateside. Are you looking for any of those Belgian beers, not in North Carolina because they hadn't changed the law yet, but in Virginia?

Chuck Cook [00:19:21]:
Yes. A 100%. I came back and I and I called the office of All About Beer, which was in Durham, North Carolina at the time. And they said, well, we have a 6% law here. You can't get these. We can drive to Virginia and get them. So I went to, I think, Richmond and Northern Virginia, and I like, the first room was, like, $450 worth of beer to buy Saint Bernardis and Chimay and Triples and things like that that you can buy in North Carolina. I had no idea because they don't advertise that kind of thing.

Chuck Cook [00:19:48]:
Don't see you don't say, oh, we can't buy these beers here. You have to have to actually know about it. So, yeah, it was, all about beer that put me on the trail, to come to Virginia to buy beer. And I come I'd come down and come up to Virginia and stock up, buy a bunch of beer for 2 or 3 months, and I'd have enough. And I had to drive brought back to Virginia to get some more until they changed the law in, like, 14 or 13 or whatever it was.

Jacob Berg [00:20:10]:
And I believe there are still some Southern states where there are similar laws on the book. I believe that in Alabama, you couldn't buy, Chimay's Quad until very recently, like within, like, the last 5 or 6 years or so.

Chuck Cook [00:20:23]:
I was actually part of Parp De Cap in North Carolina early before I moved, before they get the law changed. But they did get it changed. I was actually at the great taste of the Midwest when the news came that they had finally changed the law to 14% from 6%. And that was a pretty fun day.

Jacob Berg [00:20:40]:
Brian Eno has this famous quote that, like, only 4 people bought the Velvet Underground Records, but every each and every one of them who did started a band. And there's a story about Shelton Brothers bringing Cantillon to the US, and they're just sitting on pallets of this stuff in a Massachusetts warehouse in the mid nineties. Like, they can't sell it. But the people who had it, and some of these are US brewers, now they're starting to make Belgian inspired beer.

Chuck Cook [00:21:09]:
That was a big trend for many years. I mean, it's slowed obviously now with the terrible rise of the hazy IPA, but you know, I think it's the Belgian imports are starting to gain steam. Some importers have told me we're, you know, we're starting to do a little better than we did a year or 2 ago with more Belgian imports. And I guess at some point people get tired of drinking hazy IPA. Thank God for that. But, yeah. For sure, there's a lot of great breweries doing Belgian inspired ales in the US. There's new ones, and there's older ones like, you know, Allagas and Jester King and farm Hill Farmstead and things like that.

Chuck Cook [00:21:41]:
And that's a good thing.

Jacob Berg [00:21:42]:
We've also seen some of the Belgian brewers kind of try and attempt to move towards the US market. And so, for example, I've seen a beer like Perra, Perra, like a Belgian style strong golden ale, a triple perhaps, that's a little bit over hopped, being sold in the US as a Belgian IPA because that's what the quote unquote American palate, That's what American beer drinkers want. Your thoughts on

Chuck Cook [00:22:11]:
that? Yeah. I mean, I guess hot beer is fine. I mean, all the the Belgian strong ales, I'm not sure if you hop like a 10% strong ale, are the hops gonna last in that? It's gonna be like a barley wine, but but whatever it is, it's better than a hazy IPA for sure. And if if it sells, I'm all for it. I might not buy it and drink it, but, yeah, I mean, if a beer like that sells and takes away some of the hazy IPA dominance, I'm all for it.

Jacob Berg [00:22:36]:
So Orvala is a beer that I think by Belgian standards is reasonably hoppy. Do you prefer it fresh with a little less of the brett funk and a little more of like the Styrian Goldings kind of like that classic hop European continental hop bite to it? Or do you like it somewhere between 6 18 months where it starts to get a little funky, a little more pineapple y?

Chuck Cook [00:22:59]:
Both. I mean, I've had them both within a month or 2 old and up to even 20 30 years old. So either way is good. I mean, I can buy them off the shelf here. Like, usually in Belgium, you have to pay more to buy them aged at 12 to 18 months. But I can buy them off the shelf here already at 8 to 10 months for the same price. Usually, I don't know, 5.99 locally, and I get a discount. I get 10% discount for buying.

Chuck Cook [00:23:22]:
In case 12. Okay. That's not bad. 5.40 a bottle. I'm gonna pay 6 or $7 for a hazy IPA at the local bar. So, you know but, I've been in a tasting with the brewmaster of Orval, and he had, let's say, 5 different years of Orval. And he asked us this this is probably back in about 14. He had 8 to 13, and he he said, which one is gonna be better? And a buddy of mine was like, this one because it's got more funk.

Chuck Cook [00:23:50]:
I'm like, this one because of so and so. And he told us and he's the one who's retired now, he goes Jean Marie Rock. He said, you're both wrong. You never can know. He said, Brettanomyces, you never can know which one's gonna be better. You think the 8 or 9 is more funky now than the 11 or 12 or or vice versa. You're never gonna know in 5 or 10 years what it's gonna do. So I thought that was really, really interesting.

Chuck Cook [00:24:11]:
And I've had Orval, like I say, at 20, 25 years before they had the centrifuge. It was really, really interesting. Preference wise, I could drink a 3 month old right now or an 18 month old. No problem. I will say I'm going to Orval again this trip. And the the Orval on draft, which is 4 and a half percent alcohol and doesn't have any bread in it. It's one of the world's great session beers 4 and a half percent. They took the old overall, which was just a watered down version of the, the previous of the, the Brett one added more humps, bump the alcohol a little bit and it is only available at their, Burges, and nowhere else on draft, 4 a half percent.

Chuck Cook [00:24:50]:
So you have to go there. But, yeah, that's a tough question. A lot of people the the Brewmaster now, you know, they have they have a female brewmaster. It was the 1st Trappist Brewer, the female brewmaster. And she likes it fresh, better than aged, but I I like either way, honestly. Do you have a preference yourself?

Jacob Berg [00:25:09]:
I tend to like it somewhere between, like, 6 months to like a year, year and a half or so. I like a little bit more Brett. Noble hops, I like them a lot. I think they really pop in like a German or a Czech style pills. I like a little bit more Brett than I think the current brewmaster does. But, you know, to to each their own.

Chuck Cook [00:25:32]:
Yeah. Totally true. And for sure, she she is more of a fresh fan. They're adding the bread at bottling now. Of course, you have the centrifuge, so they have to do that. But for me still, I could drink it at 2, 3, 5, 10 years, whatever, and I still like it. Either way is good, let's say. There's not a bad way to drink, Horvath.

Jacob Berg [00:25:50]:
I will drink to that. So at this point in interview, you've made by my count, 3 and possibly 4 incredibly inflammatory statements about hazy IPAs. When did you first have a hazy IPA? And take, did you just take a sip of the first one you had and when you thought, oh, this is crap?

Chuck Cook [00:26:07]:
No. I mean, I moved to Richmond from Baltimore in 2015, and at that point, I think that was when it was starting to hit around here. I think around 18 or 19, I started going, you know, I really don't like this anymore. I really don't want this, like, West Coast. You know, love a good West Coast. And I'm just like, I don't want this. I don't like this. It doesn't taste it doesn't taste good.

Chuck Cook [00:26:26]:
I could drink Lamec all day. I could drink Saison all day. I don't want hazy. So about 3 or 4 years ago is when I sort of like, enough of this. No no more. And ironically, I also bring them, like, I've got some in the in the bag to bring Europe because friends, for some reason, still like them. If they want fresh, I I could show up with a a week old hazy IPA, somebody can pull out a 5 year old lambic. It it's kinda crazy how that works.

Chuck Cook [00:26:48]:
I'm okay with that. They can drink it. I don't have to. Alright? But, yeah, not a fan of Hazy's. I mean, they've dominated the market. They've taken away so much market share from the other beer styles that we love that that's not a good thing.

Jacob Berg [00:27:01]:
So you're in Richmond, home of The Vail, The Answer, Triple Crossing. I mean, these these are destination breweries down 95 from most of our DC beer listenership. Yeah. Are you are you are you viewed as, like, an out of touch crank?

Chuck Cook [00:27:17]:
No. Because the those breweries, even though I don't really drink the hazes, they get a lot of good lagers. They got great Pilsers and great other lagers, and they do great stouts and some some Saisons. In no case, they do West Coast. So it's not all about hazy. There's a lot of hazy's at those breweries for sure, but there's other things to drink too. Thank god.

Jacob Berg [00:27:35]:
Alright. So you're going to Belgium, and you're gonna be there for Zuante Day. You're also going to be there for the Tour de Goose.

Chuck Cook [00:27:43]:
Yes. That's an open house at most of the Lambic breweries and blenderies in Belgium. I say most, Canteen's not a part of it, Dreefontein is not an apartment anymore. Some of them are. But most of them, let's say 3, 4 of them are open for that. And you go and they'll have, their best lamb mix, and they'll put a special new beers on, like Gyrsel and Bone. Everybody will have 20 and 25 beers, drinking bile or on draft. And you can either drive to those places or catch a train.

Chuck Cook [00:28:11]:
To some of them you can go. Or you can they actually have Horae runs buses. They sold out. All the buses that, run to around the different places, tour de gaza. You can't do all of them. You can do maybe 4 or 5. That's sold out. So it is an open house at most of the limerick breweries and blinderies in Belgium.

Chuck Cook [00:28:29]:
It only happens once every 2 years. It used to be odd number of years. Now the pandemic kinda messed it up now. I did 09, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22. Now it's gonna be 24. And as long as something else doesn't change, that'll continue on even numbered years.

Jacob Berg [00:28:44]:
So because I'm an American chauvinist, I'm gonna end the interview with this question. That's what are some of the US breweries that are doing spontaneous fermentation, cool ships, they're doing this well.

Chuck Cook [00:28:58]:
Allagash and Jester King, some of the older ones have been doing it for many, many years. Mieza at Alexandria now is doing some really interesting stuff as well. And we've talked about that before. I mean, good stuff there. But between those 2, I think even Russian River's doing some spontaneous stuff too. Some not as well as others. It's kinda hit or miss. It's, it's hard to brew a spontaneous beer.

Chuck Cook [00:29:21]:
And a lot of American brewers have found that out. You can't just copy Belcher. You can't just take a yeast strain from a Cantillon bottle and try to make a a beer out of it. It doesn't work. Doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

Jacob Berg [00:29:30]:
No. I could think of at least 2 breweries inside the Beltway, that have cool ships that just they're They're mothballed or they're horizontal lockering tanks. Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show, Chuck. Safe travels. Bring us back something next.

Chuck Cook [00:29:43]:
Thanks. Sounds good. Have a good day. Thank you so much.

Jacob Berg [00:29:45]:
Thank you so much, Chuck. Have fun. Alright, folks. Who wants to wrap it up over here? Parting thoughts, parting shots.

Brandy Holder [00:29:54]:
I'm so freaking jazzed about May. I know it's still April, so don't hate on me right now. But May, we're gonna have our 1 hundredth episode of the DC beer show. I'm so jazzed about it. Our members get to come. It's gonna be a member appreciation night. Our producer's gonna fly in from Tennessee because he left us, whatever. None of us are bitter about it.

Brandy Holder [00:30:17]:
It's fine. And the Women's Real Culture Club is that weekend, and our DC Beer Share for the month is that same weekend. We're, like, crushing the Star Wars weekend for all of our lovely, beloved nerds and beer nerds. So I genuinely hope that all of you come out. And this Saturday, actually, start celebrating with us because pink boots. Beer releases this Saturday at Dynasty. As a Pilsner, Pink Technicolor boots. So I really hope to start seeing more and more folks, more women, more nonbinary, just more people in general because, you know, my friend Mark, owner of Streetcar 80 2, he always reminds me that beer is for everyone, and beer brings the community together.

Brandy Holder [00:31:08]:
So cheers.

Jacob Berg [00:31:09]:
That's very well said, Brandy. Also, I wanna shout you out for helping people tell their stories on Instagram. It's just been pretty freaking awesome. You got the pictures, the words, watching the GCF community. It's been pretty pretty cool. The weekend after Cinco de Mayo on May 4th is the Maryland Craft Brewers Fest. Brewers could use your support, especially the Baltimore breweries, because the Baltimore Beltway is going to be incomplete for the foreseeable future. So go out there and please support.

Michael Stein [00:31:38]:
Yeah. I'll just say as a person with diabetes, a PWD, technically, I'm covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act the way that, deaf folks, hearing impaired folks are. Yeah. Shout out to Mark at Streetcar82. But please come see us for our May bottle share at Other Half. To do that, you need to join us. It's patreon.comback/ dcbeer and you'll become a member. A measly $5 a month will buy you membership and you will have way more than $5 worth of beer, contributed.

Michael Stein [00:32:16]:
You know, we are artists. You are our support system. Come support us on patreon. Patreon.com/dcbeer. We'd love to do more reporting. We'd love to podcast. We'll keep it going. We love you.

Michael Stein [00:32:33]:
Thanks to all our Patreon members right now. Come join them. We can't wait to see y'all in April May.

Brandy Holder [00:32:40]:
Bye. Cheers, guys.

Jacob Berg [00:32:41]:
Bye, everybody. Tip big. It's just praxis.

Brandy Holder [00:32:47]:
Why did you leave that to the end? That was a gem joke.

Michael Stein [00:32:50]:
Wow. You let anyone laugh.

Brandy Holder [00:32:53]:
You ended with it and didn't let anyone laugh about it. Oh, I, No. I'm just I hope Just

Jacob Berg [00:32:58]:
slide that down.

Brandy Holder [00:32:58]:
I hope folks listen to the end for that one. Genuinely.