The Pilot Project Podcast is an aviation podcast that aims to help new pilots learn what it takes to succeed in the world of flight, to help people in the flight training system learn what they may want to fly, and to give Canadians and the world a peek into life on the flight deck in the RCAF. We want to help pilots succeed and thrive! We interview real RCAF pilots for their exciting stories as well as the lessons they've learned along the way. We'll learn their tips to develop resilience and the tools it takes to make it in flight training.
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is the current wing commander of 15 Wing Moose Jaw, colonel Daniel Coutts. Dan, welcome to the show, and thanks so much for being here.
Dan:Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Brian.
Bryan:Yeah. It's my pleasure. Thanks. So before we get started, let's go over Dan's bio. Dan joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 1995.
Bryan:In 1999, he completed his studies at the Royal Military College of Canada, or RMC, in Kingston, Ontario. And after receiving his pilot wings as a helicopter pilot, he started his career with 427 squadron flying the CH 146 Griffin in Petawawa, Ontario. After several rewarding years with the Lions and deployments to Bosnia and Afghanistan, he was promoted to major and worked in army collective training in Kingston. His flying supervisory tour with 400 squadron in Borden, Ontario was followed by the joint command and staff program at Canadian Forces College, CFC, in Toronto. As CO of 2 expeditionary readiness center and CO of 2 air expeditionary squadron under 2 Wing in Bagotville, Dan deployed to operation provision as the air component coordination element director in Beirut.
Bryan:In 2016, he assumed the role as the deputy commander of the Canadian Aerospace Warfare Centre in Trenton, Ontario, followed by acting commander 1 Wing in Kingston from January to May of 2019. Following his deployment period 4 education at the United States Air Force Air War College in Alabama, he filled the role of Combined Air Operations Center director, managing the RCAF Global Operations for over 2 years. In 2022 to 2023, he assumed the role of a 5 a 7 at 1 Canadian Air Division headquarters in Winnipeg. Dan holds an air transport pilot license, helicopter license, as well as numerous qualifications and certificates, a bachelor of honors in English and a master's degree in security, defense management and policy at RMC, a master's of defense studies at Canadian Forces College, a master's of strategic studies from the United States Air Force Air University, and a doctorate of social sciences at Royal Roads University in Victoria, BC, specializing in workplace culture change. Dan assumed command of 15 Wing Moose Jaw, the center of the RCAF aircrew training on July 14, 2023.
Bryan:So, Dan, what sparked your passion for flying?
Dan:Yeah. If I go back to when I was a kid, I can think of 2 events. The first was taking out a library book looking at, helicopters, interestingly enough, and the theory of flight and how they work. And I just remember being fascinated by that as a little kid. And the second one was Expo 86.
Dan:I grew up in the West Coast. My parents took me out to Expo 86. And we saw a lot of really neat things. Like, there's a mock up of what the ISS was going to be, and there is, you know, all these fantastic displays that you always have at an expo. But I remember all the different kinds of airplanes.
Dan:There's biplanes. There's flying cars. There's gliders. There's ultralights, kit planes. And it I just remember thinking it was so neat to see those aircraft.
Dan:Then, of course, all the other, things you might do when you're growing up, going to an air show and seeing the snowbirds fly and all the other demonstration teams. I mean, these things also inspired me. And then later on joining the Royal Canadian Air Cadets, you know, that actually made it seem like it was a a possible thing to do. But, you know, I think the first memories are really that book and also, going to Expo 86 and seeing those those little airplanes and all the the wonderful things people have designed over the years.
Bryan:That's awesome. What a great memory. So you are another yet another guest who got their start in the Royal Canadian Air Cadets.
Dan:Yes.
Bryan:Did you get your pilot's license or glider license while you were in cadets?
Dan:Yeah. I did my glider license. So that was in Chilliwack 1994. And and that was a really cool way to kick off a flying career, learning how to fly something with no engine. I mean, it still serves me well today.
Dan:It's less of a less of a stress when when when something turns off, you know, that you've, done it before.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I loved gliding. That was probably one of the best summers of my teenage years by far.
Bryan:It's just such an incredible experience, and flying a glider is very unique. So it's really cool.
Dan:Yeah. There's nothing like being up in a glider where it's silent. I had the opportunity to also fly 2 times in Chilliwack at the Hope Flying Club and do the the ridge soaring, and that was that was pretty phenomenal just being feet away from the edge of the rock cliff, rocking along, in relative silence, and and still moving up. That was really neat. I'd love to go back and try that again.
Bryan:Yeah. That sounds amazing. What motivated you to join the Canadian Armed Forces specifically to pursue flight?
Dan:The main one was to become a pilot. I was interested in other subjects in high school and and, you know, certainly would have considered other things, but it was my number one choice to become a pilot. So, when the opportunity came, I I jumped at it. At the time, we weren't accepting pilots to anything but the regular officer training program at the military college, so that became the pathway. And, I was fortunate enough to be to be picked up for that after, I graduated from high school.
Bryan:And at the time, basically, the forces just seemed like the best route to becoming a pilot?
Dan:Certainly. It seemed like the the training they offered was going to be, second to none. And, you know, they they gave you a degree in in the mix at the same time. You had the opportunity to certainly work. I mean, you had an obligation to work once you passed your pilot training certainly for several years, but you're guaranteed job when you first get out.
Dan:And at the time in the air, industry in the the mid nineties, if I remember correctly, it it wasn't as easy as we've seen in some periods since, you know, the the airline industry and the aviation industry in general goes up and down. And at that time, you know, being a young person looking at it, it seemed like, you know, if I could get into the military and get into the pilot train stream, that would be a really good way to go. There's less uncertainty about that. And then, you know, ultimately, if pilot train hadn't worked out, we were still the benefits of a degree and and still having a a paycheck at the end of the day. And that was initially what what attracted me to it.
Dan:But, certainly, as I've gone on from my service, been more than just paycheck. It's been a lot of fun.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. I can, empathize with that feeling of, job security. The fact that not only are you gonna get trained, but you're gonna go straight into a job. Like, there really is no other place that you have a guaranteed job once you come out qualified to do it, especially, like you said, during certain times.
Bryan:I imagine, you know, right now we're seeing a mass retiring happening within the airline industry, so there's tons of recruiting going on. It's a great time to, get into aviation in general. But like you said, that comes and goes in waves. And if you're there at the wrong point in the wave, then definitely a good place to be is in the military.
Dan:Yeah. It can be, very, demoralizing for sure when you you work as a as a line rat for years on a on a smaller commercial airline or helicopter operation, and you only get the occasional chance to fly. That that can be very difficult.
Bryan:Yeah. I would think so.
Dan:So So
Bryan:you started your flight training on the Slingsby T 67 C Firefly, which focuses on fundamental flying skills. What was phase 1 training like at that time, and was it still a weeding out process?
Dan:It was definitely a weeding out process. The the syllabus that we do today is very similar, albeit, a different aircraft. But the the fundamentals of flight were the same, you know, how to take off land, do a circuit, how to taxi, how to work on the radios, the the fundamentals of meteorology, aerodynamics, engines, and even the simpler systems like what's a radio, how you use it, you know, what's a braking system on an aircraft, how does it work, even those simple things. So everything you do with a private pilot license from a theoretical and and applied perspective, plus the addition of aerobatics, but also less perhaps the navigation, some of the instrument flying. But at the time, it was very much a selection course.
Dan:We've improved our selection, with the aircrew selection center in Trenton drastically since that point in time. We have new methodologies for selecting pilots. So that's actually seen a significant decrease in the number of, failures that come out of that phase one training. So in that respect, it is it is different. We have a higher caliber of person going into it, and we're we're sure that they have the right competencies so they can focus a bit more on the the fundamentals of flying as they go into the training now.
Bryan:Yeah. I recently did, and listeners can look for the episode on aircrew selection. And it's so interesting how much that has changed, since I did it. I imagine we probably did something similar where you go and you sit in the box and do some simulator stuff, and then you write out a bunch of written tests, and that was almost it, really.
Dan:Yeah. I had a series of of written tests. I did it at Downsview when that was still open.
Bryan:Okay.
Dan:And I was still sitting in the little trainer where you had to point to the lighthouse and point to the, the battleship. Oh. And, the instruments were inside the training. So it wasn't quite as old school as a link trainer that you see in the museums, but it wasn't too far off.
Bryan:Really?
Dan:We we've improved for sure.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. And, definitely, the caliber of people that come out of that, like, the weeding out is really happening at a it's happening more downstream, which is great because, obviously, that saves everybody's time and money once you actually step into an airplane.
Dan:Absolutely. I mean, even for the candidates, it can be certainly, if you're not, selected in an aircrew selection, or the other selection processes, it can be can be a hard blow. But at the same time, it's, it's harder once you get into the stream and realize it may not be a fit for you.
Bryan:Yeah. I'd way rather find out early and start considering what my options might be if there's other careers I might wanna do in the forces versus get in, do a full degree, do a little bit of flight training. Now you owe time. And now it's like, okay. What career like, maybe there's nothing that you wanna do that's open right now.
Bryan:It's a much better position, I think, to find out early than to find out late.
Dan:Absolutely.
Bryan:So next, you transition to the CT 156 Harvard for more advanced training. First of all, was that a fairly new aircraft at the time?
Dan:Yeah. It was brand new. I think we were the 2nd or third course depending on how you're counting on the aircraft and still have the canoe car smell. And it's funny coming back to the base now. I can see that the Harvards, and to me, it was brand new.
Dan:But, you know, this is, well, 20 22 years later now, 23 years later. It's, it's definitely put a lot of hours on. It's been a lot of miles on those airplanes.
Bryan:Yeah. But they've definitely served us well. I mean, I think the Harvard is probably the most fun aircraft I've ever flown.
Dan:It it's a it's a tank. It's, it's a pretty cool little machine.
Bryan:So was your class excited to be on the new aircraft, or was there anyone who was, like, disappointed not to be flying the tutor and flying a jet?
Dan:I think mixed feelings. I mean, it would have been fun to fly a jet, and the tutors, it was and still is a great little aircraft. At the same time, Harvard was cutting edge edge at the time, with the new, GPS that it had on board, the ability to do instrument approaches with the GPS, the EFIF, the, the radios it had on board. And, you know, the the survival systems, and the performance of the aircraft. It it made sense to go with an aircraft like that for sure.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. And you mentioned EAFIS, that's electronic flight information system.
Dan:Yes.
Bryan:And, yeah, it's interesting you mentioned the survival equipment because, of course, the Harvard has a much more advanced ejection seat.
Dan:It does.
Bryan:Yep. So you got on the Harvard. What was the most exciting part of the course for you?
Dan:It was all great. I I think, you know, the aerobatics are always fun. I really enjoyed that aspect. I have learned to enjoy instrument flying a lot more. I enjoyed it at the time, but maybe, certainly, it it was a challenge to to go through that.
Dan:I don't have the best brain for math, but I still really enjoy instrument flying. I think formation was probably the most exciting flying, you know, sitting there with, somebody else's propeller by your wing or vice versa and, trying to follow them as they're they're maneuvering around the sky. That that was a ton of fun. And later on flying helicopters, that's also part of what I found really, enjoyable being a tactical helicopter pilot.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. I love formation flying. I thought it was super exciting and just, like, it's very demanding. It's very intense.
Bryan:It's rewarding once you finally start to master the skill because at first, it's crazy. Like, you're the instructor gives you control, and they probably take control again within a few seconds because, obviously, everything is just so close and the tolerances are so tight. But, eventually, you start to gain that confidence. And once you can stick to the wing during a even just during a turn or something or do a rejoin, it's just such a cool feeling.
Dan:It is neat to be, you know, flying separate from another aircraft near and then to be able to close with it and join up safely and and then follow around in in a tight formation is is a pretty special experience.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. You mentioned IF flying. Would you say that was the most challenging part of the course?
Dan:I wouldn't say necessarily. I mean, certainly, it's it's pretty intense. Navigation at the time was also a challenge. They had changed the syllabus. And after we we finished our training, my my cohort, my cadre, they had adjusted it since and refined it.
Dan:So, I know it's much better, and more focused than it used to be. But that was certainly a challenge as well, flying around at low level at, you know, 4 miles a minute, trying to navigate in the prairies. It's not the easiest thing.
Bryan:Yeah. That's another one that I found very exciting, but very challenging. And, like, those first missions are so humbling. There's just so much to do and remember, and it's all happening so fast. But then finally, you start to get it.
Bryan:You get a grip on it, and then it's a really cool feeling.
Dan:Yeah. It's it's it's a lot of fun.
Bryan:So what would you say was the most valuable lesson you learned in those early days that continues to influence you as a pilot?
Dan:I I'd say it's the most valuable series of lessons, but I didn't realize it till later on. The fundamentals that we give our people during the flying training, during ab initio training, whether it's phase 1, 2, or 3, and then what they get when they get to their operational training units. We are a very disciplined training system, and we generate very high quality pilots in a very short amount of time. That's why the aircrew selection has to be so focused. And with that, those habits you develop, those competencies you, bring on board and the abilities you have by the time you're done as a newly winged pilot in the air force.
Dan:Even though it's just a licensed learner, you have a really solid foundation. And that served me extraordinarily well as I went forward in my my flying career. And even to this day, you know, I I don't get to fly nearly as much as I'd like to, but those fundamentals are there, and they come back, like a muscle memory, like riding a bike. And then that that's all back to what we learned, and we're, you know, stringently focused on as we went through our flying train, the level of discipline you have with the precision that the instructors wanted.
Bryan:For sure.
Dan:You know, that that that's a habit that carries forward and serves you well, no matter what regime you're flying.
Bryan:Yeah. I think back to even just the things I learned about preparation, about chair flying, arriving ready to go, and arriving fully prepared for whatever is coming next. I did a flight program in university, and on the very small chance any of my instructors are listening, I'm sorry I wasn't as prepared as I was later on. It's it's crazy, the difference. Just like you you can't waste anyone's time.
Bryan:You have to show up ready to go.
Dan:Absolutely.
Bryan:We talked about what you learned that influences you as a pilot. What did you learn that influences you as a leader?
Dan:I think that that same lesson can carry across to all aspects of of leadership as well, understanding that the fundamentals are important and then be able to to master those fundamentals. And I don't think it matters what trade you're in, what occupation. So to to be a good leader, you have to master have mastery of of one area the tactical area of expertise. And then beyond that, you can move on to the other more soft skills that you need to develop. But, you know, those fundamental skills are still important at the at the end of the day.
Bryan:Okay. So next you were selected helicopters. Did you choose the helo route? And if so, what influenced that decision?
Dan:No. I didn't I didn't select the halo route. I was, selected, and that's a theme throughout much of my career. Not many of my plans, for myself, or my career survive contact, but it's always been interesting. And that's if I could say one thing to your listeners, when you have that opportunity, unless there's a family reason or significant life reason not to, you know, when it's something you you think might be interesting and you wanna say yes, go and do it.
Dan:So I said yes to the helicopters, even though it wasn't my first choice. And, when I got there, it was actually pretty magical. I mean, it's hard to figure out how that whole rotor system works and, how, you know, gyroscopic effects, come into play when you're controlling a helicopter. But once you learn how to actually fly that thing the first time you hover, that it it was magic. It was it was really cool.
Dan:Actually, be able to hover hover the small, belt 206 helicopter. When that happened, I fell in love with it.
Bryan:Yeah. I always hear that the 206 is a pretty humbling experience.
Dan:It it definitely is.
Bryan:When you finished your helicopter training, you were selected to fly tactical helicopters on the CH 146 Griffin. You did do your on the job training with 1 Wing in Kingston. Did that influence you to ask for tacco? I feel like I might know the answer to this based on what you just said, but shoot.
Dan:At that time, the way it was managed, we also didn't really get to choose our slots. We could state a preference, but we had, on my course, I think, 1 seeking slot, no SAR slots, and rest for Taqal. And the majority of them went to either 4 weight or 4 30 squadron. So I selected 427 definitely because of the, location and, proximity to other people I knew in Ontario. You know, that was definitely part of it.
Dan:But, yeah, Takayo had been I guess, my exposure when I was working on the job training at 1 week headquarters lessened any of the angst I I would have felt maybe having if I'd not had that exposure to tachyon beforehand. Certainly, there's a reputation of of tachyon being a hard place to be sometimes. I think that's somewhat unwarranted. I think it's a great place to be. And by having that previous experience, I I didn't have that same anxiety that maybe some of my other colleagues at the time would have had.
Bryan:And that's sort of something you still see these days in selection. Right? Like, I remember when I went through, I was going through multi engine training, but I remember pretty much everyone who's going through helo was going tac hill at the time. There are times where people there's a lot of choices and people can make their choices, and there are other times where it's basically, hey. You're going tackle.
Bryan:Which unit do you wanna be in?
Dan:Yep. And just like flying in the civilian world, they're all great jobs at the end of the day. There's not that's one thing I say to the students here when they come on phase 2. There's not a bad cockpit in the air force. And having been the a 3, looking at those global operations, you really, really came home to me, the kinds of awesome things that all of our fleets are doing around the world every day.
Dan:There's no bad place to end up.
Bryan:Yeah. A 100%. I I totally agree. And we've said it many times, but it really the biggest determining factor for how your career is gonna go is the attitude you bring to wherever you end up.
Dan:Absolutely.
Bryan:So you mentioned you were posted to Petawawa at 427 squadron, which was still a normal tactical helicopter squadron at the time.
Dan:It was.
Bryan:What were those early years like for you? And did you feel adequately prepared?
Dan:I think I was adequately prepared. The the school at Gagetown that does the operational training for the the Griffin helicopter, just like all the other OTUs, it it was really well done. The instructors were highly focused and, dedicated to getting the students through and showing us what we needed to do to be safe, and and how to actually fight that platform. So you came on unit. Certainly, you you're coming on for a period of apprenticeship before you can upgrade the aircraft captain as a as a new copilot.
Dan:But we had, some really good training under our belts. And then when we got on the squadron, we had a lot of senior captains in the squadron who could take us under their wings and show us how to do the business. So I think we were pretty fortunate at that time to have that senior mentorship on the on the squadron, not the captain rank, some of the major rank as well, but especially those senior captains. They really took care of us and took a keen interest in making sure we were developing as pilots. The same could be said as well from the flight engineers.
Dan:You know, you're flying with the crew now, and you gain a lot of insight and wisdom from those flight engineers who were technicians before and now, an integral part of the flying crew.
Bryan:Yeah. You're a you're a fool if you don't listen to your flight engineers. Yeah. They are, they have so much knowledge. They can teach you so much.
Bryan:I learned so so much about the Aurora from my flight engineers, and I was I am very, very grateful to those guys for their patience and, and for their their mentorship. And, and speaking of mentorship, you mentioned the, captain mentors you had as well. It's crazy how much of a difference it makes in your career, basically, just based on the roll of the dice of what kind of mentors you have. And it sounds like you were pretty lucky with yours.
Dan:The the Lions were a good place to be at that point in time for sure.
Bryan:So what was your favorite part of your time on 427?
Dan:When I I became more senior, I mean, all of it was awesome. The first two tours, being there with a a cohort of people, a a lot of friends that you get to, work and hang out with after, and you're, you know, you're at that point in your life where things are still, new and exciting, and everything is a new experience, you get to go through that with a a close group of people. That's that's a lot of fun and a a really neat experience that, it does exist outside the military, but certainly is is one of the things you can expect in a military career, if you're fortunate enough to have a tight unit like that. It's it's it's a really, special time in your life. So that that part was was amazing, but then the flying as well.
Dan:As I became more senior and became a flight instructor on squadron and standards, I really enjoyed the, night flying. I I don't have too much time on goggles, but the time that I did have, I got to instruct, some of the MG formation flying. That was that was really exciting and fun teaching somebody who has experience at the time, you know, we we were transitioning to goggles. We we've been doing goggles for for many years, but it hadn't become probably as as routine as maybe it is now flying with the the goggles. And so there are still things that we need to learn.
Dan:In the formation of flying low level, that was, a lot of work, but a lot of fun too. And being in Petawawa to do that, it was an amazing flying range as well. You roll out of the squadron, you're right into the ranges, or you're off your Algonquin Park, or you go across the river, and it's, you know, hundreds of kilometers of just, wilderness and and, lots of opportunity for low level flying and navigation.
Bryan:Yeah. NVGs. So I've only ever done one flight with NVGs. We're gonna talk a little bit about your time with 400 squadron in a bit, but that's actually where I did my OGT as well in, 2009, 2010. So I think that's just before you got there.
Dan:Just before.
Bryan:Yeah. So but I I got to go for one flight with MBGs, and it is magic. Those things are so cool. It was such an incredible experience. Like, I can only imagine what it's like to actually be up in upfront doing the flying.
Bryan:But what would you say like, what's the most challenging part of flying with MBGs?
Dan:Depends on the the illumination. The older goggles would wash out if you faced into the light, like, if you had the AMBA sixes. The the I flew primarily with the nines. They are much better, for washout, and they could pick up a lot more ambient light. But past a certain point, when it gets really, really dark, even if you have a HUD, it can be challenging.
Dan:You know, when those goggles start to sparkle and you get to really low millelux, you don't have a lot of references around, and then you really have to focus on your crosscheck. It goes back to that disciplined comment I made about my my primary flight training. I have an issue of training. Having a good cross check, having those good fundamentals there is what keeps you alive when, things like that start to happen.
Bryan:That makes sense. You mentioned a term, millilux. What's that?
Dan:Just the level of illumination at night with the infrared radiation that might be available. Usually, it comes from from the moon or from, other ambient lighting. But when you have a really dark night, if there's no moon, overcast sky, no ambient lighting, you're gonna be really, really low on those goggles. What they do is they accelerate the existing light in that spectrum, and there there just may not be any of that light there.
Bryan:Okay. And so basically, once it gets lower, you said it sort of starts to get what, like grainy essentially?
Dan:Yeah. The goggles look grainy, and they start to have little sparkles in them, where the tubes are trying to, you know, accelerate what they see in that spectrum and and make an image on the screen, but it's just not working.
Bryan:Okay. Right on. So we've talked about your kind of early days, your early flying days. Let's talk a little bit about some of the experiences you had later on and some of your growth as a leader. You served in a variety of roles, including tactical helicopter operations in Bosnia, special operations forces support in Afghanistan as an instructor pilot, an operations officer, and eventually a commanding officer.
Bryan:Could you share a particularly memorable experience from your deployments to Bosnia and Afghanistan?
Dan:I think early on when I went to Bosnia, it it was great to deploy early and to be able to fly every single day. There's a bunch of us off of my my cohort that got to go to Bosnia and and do an early short tour. And to cement our skills as pilots, as aviation professionals, that was that was a really good opportunity. And you're doing it in an unfamiliar environment, in an unfamiliar country. And although the threat was low, there was still, you know, there was still threat out there.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Dan:So to have that additional tactical exposure was beneficial. During that time, I also had a really cool experience. We had to do maintenance on the the Bell 412, and the company that was doing it wouldn't do it in Bosnia. So they're up in the Czech Republic, which wasn't part of NATO or the EU at the time. So we actually had to fly across the Alps in the hell in the helicopter and bring it up there for to swap it out so they could work on another helicopter, then we brought back the one they just done the work on.
Dan:So as a brand new brand new first officer, I I I was probably worth, about as much as a as a half decent, autopilot at that point in time in terms of my skill level and what I contribute. But it was a a really big learning experience to be able to go over mountains, low level airways, VFR in Europe. You know, that that was, definitely a formative experience from a flying perspective.
Bryan:I also deployed fairly early in my time on the Aurora, to Op Impact in Kuwait flying over Iraq and totally same experience, just getting putting in the reps, flying. And for us, it was every other day, just flying like crazy and getting 100 of hours in a short period of time. It really, really solidifies all those skills that you've learned at your OTU, like your operational training unit.
Dan:Yep. When I got to Afghanistan, I wasn't in a flying role. I was supporting a task force there, for several months organizing air and aviation support for both routine operations and, and, kinetic operations. But one of the things that happened while I was there was the visit of the Manley panel. And so the task force was largely responsible for security and helping to coordinate the transportation of that task force, and I got to play a small role in that.
Dan:And and that was pretty neat to see, that historic group of people come through, do that, nonpartisan analysis of what Canada needed for Afghanistan, and then come back with the recommendations, one of which ultimately, saw the deployment, later on of the the Chinooks and the Griffins Afghanistan to help support our troops on the ground, and the the entire coalition effort there. So that was that was pretty neat to be part of that effort as well and to see, you know, when a nation actually has a conversation about their defense and decides that they need to change it, how quickly it actually can change.
Bryan:Yeah. That's that's interesting. I I remember the early days of Afghanistan were really a time of big change in terms of Canada's capabilities, our equipment, I think some of our weaponry, and just kinda how we were using our our capabilities.
Dan:Absolutely. There is a a rapid period of very rapid evolution. Doesn't matter if your army need, your air force is off. There was a lot of change going on in the forces at that time. And, you know, to the credit of the leadership at that time at all levels, you know, that was a tremendous amount of work to to change things rapidly.
Dan:And I think you're gonna see that now as well with the huge investment the air force is making. The government is and and Canada is making in the air force, you know, all the programs that have been announced in the last, 24 months. It's one of the biggest recapitalizations in the air force. So similar levels across all levels of DND and and the CAF working right now to make those kinds of changes happen. So it's gonna be impressive to see.
Bryan:Yeah. I think there's gonna be some really interesting challenges that rise out of it as we kind of try to maintain our skills and and, adapt to the new skills that we need to have. I think it's gonna be a very, very interesting time of transformation for the Air Force.
Dan:Absolutely. And when I look back to my Afghanistan experience, both, supporting the army and the Air Force, The transformation that happened there, there was, you know, there was that imperative to do that work quickly, but then you also understand that at certain times, leadership will be willing to take more risks for even just to get the 4th generation done, and the investment will be will be there. And sometimes that can be hard to see when you're grinding out in a unit or a small headquarters day in, day out, and and you feel like nothing's changing. But ultimately, when those periods happen, you know, that change does happen in in relative terms fairly quickly.
Bryan:Oh, for sure. If I look back at the years of my career, you can see you can see when we're in basically, a flash point for change. When you are on specific operations and they realize there's a capability gap, that's when you really often see, like, a rapid change in what we're able to do or what equipment we have.
Dan:Absolutely.
Bryan:So how do these tours contribute to your understanding of leadership and teamwork in high pressure environments?
Dan:Tied to my initial studies, when I did my master's, my first master's, one of the things that started to, I guess, unsettle me, pick at me, irritate me a little bit is how hard it was to get different groups to work together even though we're on the same team. Ultimately, I wrote a my my project for my first master's on air land integration, focusing on that and what the conditions are that helps you get through and and and help resolve some of those those gaps that exist when you're in that joint environment or in a joint and combined environment. Those experiences in Bosnia help to highlight some of those challenges, and how hard it can be to bring it together and then also highlighted, ultimately, for me, the importance of doing collective training with partners ahead of time to make sure that you can actually operate together because we have different technical focuses. We have different ways of doing business, and they're compatible, but we have to work through it and practice it ahead of time if you wanna be effective when you hit the ground. I think that's probably the biggest thing is the importance of that, working with people ahead of time and and making sure you have that those relationships established and a bit of a shared understanding and a bit of that trust, before you get to somewhere where you really have to lean on each other.
Bryan:Now you mentioned that those were lessons that were learned in Bosnia. Do you think you saw those lessons learned made good on by the time we were in Afghanistan?
Dan:Certainly, when you look at the collective training efforts, especially that the RA put forward and the the air force as they started to deploy the air wing, their efforts in collective training, they involved each other constantly. No. They, they pulled the air force into, most levels of army collective training, and we did the same on the air force side, where we could. So I, yeah, I think, to a certain extent, I I I wasn't involved in collective training when we went to Bosnia, so I'm not sure how much that was or was not a problem for my leaders at the time. But certainly what I saw in Afghanistan, there is a recognition of a need to, have that kind of training at both the tactical and operational levels, or the high tactical level, when you're looking at those forces that we deployed.
Bryan:Awesome. And just for the listeners, we mentioned joint and combined operations. I know those terms sound very similar. Do you wanna explain joint and combined?
Dan:For sure. Joint operations would be when you have different elements or environments like the army navy, air force soft as the primary military elements when they have to work together because we have different challenges in the, domains we work in. Sometimes our planning or procedures are are somewhat different. So when we want to get ready to work together on a common operation, that's a joint operation, and we have to practice for that to make sure that we can find the differences in our different protocols and procedures and make sure we can align those before they become a problem. Combined operations is when we have a multinational context, and we have to do the same kind of activity between nations.
Dan:So when you look at NATO as an example and what we're doing in Latvia today with the army supporting, several NATO NATO nations as well as Ukraine, That's part of what we're doing over the over there as well as a combined, a series of combined exercises. They're making sure that you have that interoperability working ahead of time as well.
Bryan:Yep. Exactly. While you were in 427, it switched from I'll call it a normal tac hell squadron to being part of Canadian Special Operations Forces Command or CAN SOFCOM. Yes. Transitioning from tactical helicopter squadron to a special operations forces or soft environment is a big change.
Bryan:What was it like being part of that transition?
Dan:So this is one of those cases where if the armed forces and DND and the government decide it's important enough, they'll be willing to take risk. And I think I'd have to talk to the people who were leading at that time. It it felt like they they did. It wasn't a slow transition. It was a very fast transition to say, okay.
Dan:Now you are soft. And I think for many of us who were captains at the time, and, you know, sergeants, master corporals, the working ranks on that unit, That transition was certainly initially unsettling because you don't necessarily know, what that new culture is, how you fit into it, how you're supposed to operate. We didn't have that example other than some people had had exposure to special operation forces in other countries. On the aviation side, many of us didn't have that exposure. CAD Softcon was really good about helping to help bring us on board and helped explain to us what it meant to be in in in a special operations team, the special operation forces team.
Dan:And then there's also academics like and, leaders like Bernd Horn wrote books that helped with that cultural adjustment. And and quite frankly, the leaders we had at the time, you know, they put a lot of effort into helping us understand what it meant to be, on that team and what it was going to mean for the, Canadian Armed Forces going forward and what we had to do to make it better. And then there's leaders who were maybe my generation or a generation ahead of me that went off and did other things like, general Morehand now, when he did his command of staff program, did research on selection processes. And that really helped to professionalize 4 27 as well once they started to implement that. And over time, Canadian Special Operations Forces Command has grown, and has become, they were always mature, but matured in other areas.
Dan:And and certainly special operations aviation is is one of those areas where it's really really become its own it's not not its own domain inside of soft, but it's it's really come into its own. So I was just grateful to be there at the beginning of that. I I didn't get to stay there for too long. I was only there for maybe two and a half years after the transition, but during the time I was there, it was, it was a pretty pretty remarkable experience to be part of that significant and rapid change.
Bryan:Yeah. It sounds kind of intimidating, to be honest.
Dan:I think it was initially, but the other thing that was really great about working with, CSOR and to a certain extent, JTF 2 and, the other elements inside of Concoursevcom was you got to see, very highly skilled professionals, you know, quietly doing their job, at levels that are are second to none around the world. And you get to a point where you see perhaps a master corporal can brief a general on an operation, and, they're able to do that because they are that motivated, that talented. They've been selected and trained and equipped for that job, and and they just do it so well. So to be part of a motivated team that's so dedicated to mission success and always finding a way, that was eye opening for me as well.
Bryan:Yeah. When you deal with anyone kind of in the soft world or start techs, these kind of elite people, it's amazing the energy they bring to the table, that professionalism. Like you said, that quiet professionalism, that kinda, like, can do attitude. It it's really amazing to to be around that.
Dan:It it was, something I really enjoyed. Although I didn't get a chance to go back, it's certainly one of the most special points in my career being able to be, for a short amount of time, part of that community.
Bryan:Yeah. What would you say were some of the key challenges you faced during this time of transition?
Dan:Just learning what we needed to be as a special operations aviation organization, developing what the new training needed to be, how we'd inculcate new people into the, aviation operation the special operations aviation community, how we could actually work with the different supported elements inside of CANsoftcom, and support them. And, you know, the challenges continue on it. And and to some extent, those are the same challenges with change anywhere you go. Just happened to be our particular context at the time.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. So later on, you did some time in army collective training. How did your time as an air liaison officer in Afghanistan help you during that posting? Did you find it was a steep learning curve as an air force officer to be at an army training center?
Dan:Certainly, my deployment to Afghanistan helped me when it came to both training air task forces and army, army, rotations as they went out the door because I'd had a bit of exposure to Afghanistan and and what operations looked like there for, counterinsurgency operations. That helped for sure. When I deployed myself, my collective training, I think, was maybe 2 weeks long and didn't have much of it. It was really more individual training and and how to not step on my own toes, which was appropriate for the role I was doing at the time. But with the collective training, when you're trying to get a a a group together, you know, a lot of our collective training focuses on, you know, larger building up larger teams and then larger headquarters and teaching them how to synchronize things across, multiple suborganizations, if you will, to simplify it.
Dan:You know, that takes, time and and determined effort to to put together. That was a learning curve, and I I learned a ton in army collective training about how the army was doing that, how they used their mission essential task list to develop training, how that was, carefully designed and considered ahead of time, and how that also integrated well with the lessons learned program that they had at the time, feeding lessons back from operations to the tactical and operational level of, what we were doing when it came to training those task forces.
Bryan:Right on. Now when you say collective training, is that the same as joint training, essentially?
Dan:It is similar. But if I have, for example, a squadron as a basic unit of the air force, if I want to train that squadron of helicopters in a in an operation where we're also going to have, say, a tactical airlift squadron of of Hercules or an attachment, and then you're gonna add in some contracted helicopters, maybe a UAV. That would be then collective training because we essentially have an air wing. So not only do those elements need to learn how to work together potentially and, leverage each other's strengths and also fill in the gaps of each other's, vulnerabilities or limitations. We also need the headquarters to learn how to operate all those fleets, how to manage an air operation that's a bit more complicated, how they will integrate into the wider theater system for airspace control and tasking, the national system for making sure we're taking to account the appropriate risk, decision space for that task force in accordance to what's what's been given to us by our government.
Dan:And then also the most fundamental aspect, in in my opinion, is developing that team in a way so they have organizational learning, as a habit. You know, when they first go out the door, there's no way we're going to give them every scenario, every playbook, because the enemy gets to vote too. And it becomes imperative in collective training that the headquarters at a wing level, at a battalion level, at a brigade level, that they have the ability to learn from everything that's going on. And and that was probably the hardest thing to implement, in my opinion, for a lot of this collective training is bringing that group of people together and saying, yeah. You're doing really well, but you also need to learn how to learn as a group, not just individually.
Dan:And that was the probably the biggest challenge out of out of all, for for all the rotations that we trained up was how to inculcate that that organizational learning, and that that was the the core, in my opinion, of a lot of the collective training.
Bryan:I think that's kind of the crux of a lot of military operations is that the easy part is the stuff that's, you know, emergency procedures, like step, step, step, step. This is what I'm doing. Okay. The emergency, you know, in a in a simulator, the emergency is complete. Everything's secure.
Bryan:But in the real world, you actually have to learn, and there's a lot of situations that aren't exactly by the book. It isn't exactly by the manual. And you actually have to kind of adapt and learn and and figure out how to do it. And that's always the most challenging part.
Dan:And then there's always the question, now what what next and who needs to know?
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. So you've got some experience in both worlds, army and air force. What would you say the army does best, and what does the air force do best?
Dan:I think tied to their domains, you know, our domains really define what we need to be, and that's why we have different areas where we we excel, for the army. Certainly, when you're managing a a more complicated operation like you do at a brigade level or even more so at a DIV level, and I say this just from my my exposure to the army vicariously as well as the army operations training I had as a captain. You need to be able to do a lot of complicated planning with a lot of different entities that have different capabilities, integrate that, and synchronize it. And so that's where you get that iterative planning cycle that is so key to army, collective battle procedure, and, you know, at a certain level, operational planning procedure. And that's why the army produces such good planners.
Dan:They have to, as as part of their business, do that day in, day out. On the air force side, I think because of the way we fight, the platforms we have, the capabilities we employ, we have to be much more technically focused. So if you're to take an army captain, a senior army captain, they're probably gonna be a bit more of a generalist and extremely strong in that, planning using multiple capabilities. And if you're gonna take a senior air force captain, they're gonna be a very, good pilot in in the case of pilots, and they're going to be a a technical expert in their one particular domain. And if you're an area officer, if you're an axo, if you're a weapons controller or ATC or a pilot, you know, you're going to be very technically, adept at what you do if you're at the top end of your game.
Dan:So there's a slight difference there just based on how we we employ. And I think that's where we'd be, you know, you have different strengths if you're in the army or the air force, but they're also complimentary when you join them up on joint operations.
Bryan:Disclaimer. The following is an uneducated retired air force officer's guess at life in the army. If I have it wrong, please forgive me. That's really interesting. I think it kind of speaks as well to the way we employ our officers differently within the army and the air force.
Bryan:The army is kind of, well, if you look at your your classic, like your platoon commander or what have you, they're pretty much instantly, as a junior lieutenant in a leadership role, and they're focusing more on that leadership and that planning. Whereas, like you said, a captain tends to be more in the air force, more tactically focused. They're more of an operator, doing the business, whereas maybe in the in the platoon that I saw I'm using as an example, there would be the the privates and the corporals doing the tactical business while the the platoon commander keeps things going.
Dan:And I think the sergeants, you know, it's the same for the air force when you have a unit with a lot of maintainers on it, and other trades. You know, the sergeants play a major role in keeping that unit together and and getting stuff done. I think also when you look at Ukraine now, though, and the future of operations, we're probably seeing some convergence in those areas. You know, the army is by no means, you know, are they not tactical. They're they're adopting more and more highly tactical systems, especially as, you know, the army has to fight thinking about space and cyber all the time.
Dan:In the air force, we're the same as well. We're converging towards, more, complicated arrays of capabilities, and we also have to think about those same kinds of things. There might be a bit of convergence there as well. It'll be it'll be interesting to see how that evolves.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. That's definitely Ukraine is definitely kind of our peak at what the future of of modern battle space looks like.
Dan:Certainly in that European context.
Bryan:Yeah. Your posting as a flying supervisor was at 400 squadron during its transition to a high readiness status. The squadron conducted training in places like Wainwright, Alberta and Inuvik Northwest Territories. What did this change involve, and what were the biggest obstacles you encountered during this transition?
Dan:As we were drawing down, the helicopter capability from Afghanistan, we needed to give time for 408 squadron, 430 squadron as the primary maneuver units and one wing time to reconstitute. So at the time, the leadership had decided to put 400 squadron on high readiness status. And so that was the job of my my boss to take the unit to that status, but we didn't necessarily have all the people. We had a lot of augmentees from the other units because it had not been designed necessarily as a maneuver unit. It had been, prior to that point, primarily a reserve squadron focused on reserve training and augmenting other operations for, one wing, leading occasionally, in other areas as well.
Dan:But they weren't fully, designed and equipped and staffed to take on a full rotation by themselves. So for me, and I suspect for my boss, one of the big challenges with bringing those people together and getting them to work as one team. Not that they wouldn't want to. It's just when you're not working day in and day out with people, you have to invest time in making sure that they have that opportunity to develop those relationships, build that trust and that common understanding between them. So that was certainly a challenge.
Dan:And the collective training that was put together for us by the headquarters and supported by the army, and supported by the air force, you You know, that that really helped to bring that team together.
Bryan:Yeah. It sounds like it would be a massive challenge because it's a huge change to go from a reserve unit to a high readiness unit.
Dan:It was. And then they had another transition after that, which is where they are today. They had to transit transfer to be a aircraft maintenance organization, which was another big transition for the entire enterprise, but especially for that squadron.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. Can you speak to the leadership strategies you employed to guide the squadron through this period?
Dan:I think I'd look more at my boss at the time was, tenant colonel Braithwaite, and I still hold him up as a a role model for that. He was very how to say it? He was very easygoing, same time focused, and he he showed to me that you could be friendly and and, you know, open and and transparent with people, at the same time, still get the business done. So he took that more coaching and stewardship approach that I I've tried to emulate. And, that was a big lesson for me to see because he was different from other leaders I'd seen.
Dan:He had left the military and come back in and brought back with him a bunch of experience, and, he was widely respected and liked as a leader. And, I think a lot of it had to do with how he approached people. You know, he treated them as, you know, people as valued in their own right and and respected what they had to say and then was also honest and and direct about the things we need to achieve and, made sure that we got it done.
Bryan:Yeah. He sounds like one of those rare mentors you get. Like, there's lots of good mentors within the Air Force, but you get a few shining examples that you really wanna emulate.
Dan:Absolutely. I've I've been lucky to have several of those.
Bryan:What was the most memorable experience from your time at 400 squadron?
Dan:Be able to take an attachment up for an op nanook to Inuvik was was really cool. You know, as a middle range, you know, getting towards the senior end of my time as a as a major, being entrusted with a group and take them up to do operations, by yourself with a detachment, and you're in charge. That's, that's a very formative experience. At the time, we also had a crash of a twin otter in 2012. They fortunately, thankfully, everybody was fine, but we were there.
Dan:They they landed on the Tundra by the Mackenzie River and ripped off their nose gear.
Bryan:Oh, wow.
Dan:And so we had to send helicopters out and extract the crew and then work with the higher headquarters at the time about how we'd actually support, the ongoing recovery of this aircraft. Ultimately, it was lifted out by a contract, but we were able to bring a bunch of the engineers who were out there on exercise, sling sling a bunch of wood out there so they could build some helicopter pads so the contractor could eventually have the ability to access the site. We brought out the fuel from the aircraft and recovered a lot of elements. We moved the Rangers out there so they could safeguard the aircraft from competitors and, of the 2 legged and more the 4 legged kind, just to protect the aircraft. And, yeah, it was a really, really, really neat operation.
Dan:So you're doing this exercise, and all of a sudden at the end of it, you have to pivot and support this unique planning effort, that we hadn't really thought through, but was you know, thankfully, everybody is fine because it turned out to be a very positive experience, I think, for the entire detachment as we focused on trying to help the forces recover that that platform.
Bryan:I was gonna say it's so fortunate that everyone was okay, and, basically, it provided you guys with this I don't wanna call it a great opportunity because it's obviously not great that that happened to an aircraft. But this opportunity to plan and to execute execute that plan, stand what stands out to me, you were talking about the engineers building helicopter platforms. Like, that's pretty impressive.
Dan:It it was neat. We hadn't been slinging, doing sling loads all that much the the years before in the in the tachl squadrons, and, we had to sling all these, loads of plywood and lumber out, which which is hard because it flops around a whole bunch. So then we had to think about and the flight engineers were key to this. Now how do we stabilize those loads? Then we had they had to chop off branches and tie them into the loads so they could kinda feather the load so it wouldn't swing as much.
Dan:You know, we had to get it out there carefully. And then we also had to think about how we're going to sustain our folks while they're out there and making sure we set up a schedule to to get supplies back and forth and people and then how to do the extraction at the end, as we're wrapping up the exercise.
Bryan:Yeah. That sounds like quite an experience.
Dan:It was pretty neat. And flying up in the north, I'd love to go back to the Arctic and fly around the Mackenzie River Delta again. It was is, you know, entirely different world up there, and getting up to tuck, yuck, and seeing how people live, in those northern regions of Canada and, what it means. You know, that's one of the cool things about being the Air Force. You get to see how Canadians live in all different parts of this country, and, and and we are a pretty diverse nation.
Dan:And and to be able to see that, was, also a very formative experience for me.
Bryan:Yeah. Going into Northern Canada with the with an aircraft and and being able to fly around is a huge it's a huge street. It's a privilege for sure. So beyond your flying roles, you've held positions such as deputy commander of the Canadian Aerospace Warfare Centre, acting commander of 1 Wing, and director of the Combined Air Operations Centre or CAOC. How do these non flying roles broaden your perspective and prepare you for the complexities of leading 15 wing Moose Jaw?
Dan:I think I'll use the air warfare center as an example. You know, I was definitely, challenged there to learn a bunch of new things very quickly as the deputy, supporting the 2 commanders I had, throughout my tenure there. And it's learning about how the wider defense enterprise works, what you need to do. For example, we are standing up 4 34 squadron, and we were transforming the, air warfare center as well. So we had to, change the ministerial orders and the Canadian forces orders that established that organization.
Dan:So understanding all the different levels and how that happens and, you know, asking for help from a bunch of different people because I just didn't know how to do it, how to how to staff that paperwork. You know, that was, that was very educational. Understanding different parts of defense, becoming familiar with the Joint Warfare Center and what they do, and other aspects of the Air Force when it comes to different compartmentalized programs, how that works. Besides the Air Force, we don't necessarily talk about all that much but are still extremely important to to operations. Even the finances, how to work with the reserves, how to hire reservists, the human resources challenges, that you may have with, civilian employees because our policies and processes for Canadian Forces members versus civilian employees is different.
Dan:Contracting.
Bryan:For sure.
Dan:All those things. You know, I I I was, you know, definitely, holding on pretty tight to the tail of the tiger throughout that time and, learned a ton and and had a lot of help from really good people. That was the other thing that really stuck out to me as well. When you maybe are more insular in your upbringing and the forces and you think, about your one criteria, particularly if your area of expertise that you're super proud about and super good at because we've become technical experts, Sometimes it can be hard to see that that technical expertise for other people exists in other ways and other places. And and The Rock really helped me open my eyes to that about how many dedicated people are out there working to help the forces and d and d do what we need to do, to put troops out there and and to represent Canadian, interests, at home and abroad.
Dan:You know, it it it takes a huge amount of people working, you know, both in the short term and the long term to make all this happen, and that really opened my eyes.
Bryan:So it sounds like basically a huge appreciation for, like, the team effort that it takes to make these big operations a success.
Dan:Absolutely.
Bryan:And that humbling learning curve of of figuring out how to make it all work and how to rely on your people to help you make it all work.
Dan:Well, and how to ask for help because, you know, even though you might have, 2 master's degrees and, you know, a lot of experience under your belt, you still there's areas you know nothing about, and you have to rely and trust other people, to help you out on those things.
Bryan:For sure. During your time as the CAOC director, you led operational air force contingency planning in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Can you tell us more about this?
Dan:Absolutely. It was a very interesting time. And I think in some respects, a lot of people around the world are realizing that this has been a tipping point for the geopolitical landscape. Some people maybe don't, and and I think we saw the same thing after 911. I remember sitting there in Moose Jaw, watching 911 unfold, and we didn't fully understand how it would impact our world.
Dan:Mhmm. And I think the the same can be said about February of 2022 where where many people are just now beginning to wake up and realize what it really means for our world and how that's gonna change our lives the next 20, 30, maybe even 40 or longer years. So it was a big event. We initially responded with you know, the air force responded by, establishing, the ATF in Prestwick, which is now an air task force in Prestwick moving, loads and loads of lethal and nonlethal aid, into Poland to support Ukraine. We did that not just from Canada, but a bunch of other places.
Dan:That was put together really quickly by 8 Wing and some of our planners, and and really need to see that come together. We put the Auroras in the Mediterranean tracking Russian submarines, and we continued on with all the other operations we had to do around the world, including Defense North America with NORAD. So the initial response was was robust from a air force perspective and immediate. I think that's where we shined. You know, we're able to react and support Canada's goals, especially when we need to pivot and do something quickly.
Dan:But then we also did a bunch of planning to determine, you know, if we needed to increase the commitment to Europe, what could that look like? And if we need to increase the, the deterrence level or the the, the level, the posture, the defensive posture and deterrence posture we have for North American air defense, what that would look like. And I I won't go into details because some of it obviously would would still remain classified. But Yeah. For sure.
Dan:The the fundamental challenge for any military operation, and sometimes it sounds like a bit of a cliche, but the fundamental challenge is logistics and support. So a lot of our platforms have, interdependencies when it comes to the supports, and and that becomes the focus of a lot of our our challenges as well as we go into major operations, is is understanding those interdependencies and how that might limit what we're doing. And I think that was the biggest part of that challenge was understanding those interdependencies and where we could build decision space for our commanders, and and the government of Canada and, and what that actually looked like in terms of effect that we could offer to our allies and partners. The flip side of that, you know, the other great part of it, when when a major general turns around and says, this is my main planning effort, that also makes life easier. A lot of the time in the air force, you're trying to do all everything, with reaching operations and plan for the future, And then something will come up like Atlantis floods in BC, floods in Newfoundland, fires in in Northern Manitoba, you know, a a short notice deployment.
Dan:They wanna go to to, Dominican Republic to help, you know, with trapped miners. That you know, you list it. Those things pop up, but you still have to do everything else. And so that's the other challenge the Air Force, the operational that faces all the time is, you know, we have a steady state, planning capacity, and then you layer all these extra things on top that Canadians want us to do and need us to do. And, it it's fun.
Dan:It's it's never boring, but it it can definitely be a challenge. Whereas the planning for, you know, following the invasion of Ukraine, we had the full focus and attention of the headquarters and the support of the commanders and the generals at the time to get that done. So we had the resources and the and the expertise we needed.
Bryan:It's definitely easier when you're basically priority number 1.
Dan:Yeah. When you're the main effort, it's a good it's a good place to be. Yeah. It's a humbling place to be, and, you can't afford to to get it wrong, but, being a Met effort Main effort's a a great place to be.
Bryan:I was gonna say, it sounds like also a very high pressure situation because, like, obviously, this was a huge global event. You gotta get your plans. I was gonna say you gotta get them right, but you need to make sure you're considering all the different contingencies that can that can come up as much as possible.
Dan:Yeah. And I suspect it was very high pressure for my bosses. You know, they're the ones who have to interface with all these different commanders and commands, US, Canadian, and other allies. You do have to get it right. But the way you do that is you give the right resources at the right time, and you think about it ahead of time, and you don't assume that it's gonna take care of your take care of itself.
Dan:So you put the effort in early to do that planning, and you make sure you get it right.
Bryan:So we've talked a lot about your past experiences leading up to being the wing commander of Moose Jaw. If you had to pick 1, which role do you think most prepare you to take on this leadership position and why?
Dan:I think, the the second place would be the air warfare center, you know, and give me that broadening exposure. And then the first one would be the chaoc director more for, you know, being my first job as a colonel, understanding, how I could work at that level, and then also building up my network of of people that I need to have relationships with across the air force and and in other areas of of the defense enterprise. That really helped. Understanding, you know, my role now as the the wing commander is not necessarily you know, I I do have to leave from the front, but I'm also there to set conditions and set the space for people and then coach and mentor. And, it really cut my teeth to that, you know, working as the cad director and then learning from both my peers at the time who are more senior than me and then certainly my bosses.
Dan:You know, I got to see them in action and how how they conducted, their business, and and those are great examples for me.
Bryan:Yeah. So kind of having that view of what's going on in the background and what it takes to be a leader?
Dan:At that level. Absolutely.
Bryan:Okay, Dan. That's gonna wrap up part 1 of our discussion on your career. Thanks so much for being here today, and I'm really looking forward to chatting about your time as 15 Wing Commander, current and future plans for training our pilots, as well as some questions from the audience in part 2. Thanks again for being here.
Dan:Thank you so much, Brian. It was fun.
Bryan:Alright. That wraps up our chat with Colonel Dan Coutts about his career. Tune in on the next one to hear all about his time as 15 Wing Moose Jaw Commander, our current and future plans for training pilots as well as some questions from the audience. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you heard in this episode? Would you or someone you know make a great guest or do you have a great idea for a show?
Bryan:You can reach out to us at the pilot project podcast atgmail.com or on all social media at atpodpilotproject. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in as well as asking for your help with the big three that's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us 5 stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up.
Bryan:See you.