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Record Live is a conversation about life, spirituality and following Jesus in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Future-ready kids_ technology_ screen time and mental wellbeing
[00:00:00] Hi there, everyone. I'm Jared. And I'm Zenita. We are your hosts of Record Live, a podcast where we talk about church, faith, and living well. We believe as followers of Jesus, faith is more than just a set of beliefs. It's a way of life, something we put into practice. Let's go live.
Jarrod Stackelroth: And we're very excited today, not only to have you back Zanita, it's always great to see you at this time every week, but we've got Pastor Darren Pratt with us now, Darren, it has been a while. I've been thinking of getting you on the show. , and we just haven't.
Jarrod Stackelroth: necessarily made it happen, but today is the day. So it's great to have you with us. Now, Darren, you're the Greater Sydney Conference, , Family and Children's Ministries Director. Is that correct?
Daron Pratt: That's [00:01:00] correct. I love what I do. Enjoy working in this area. I mean, you enjoy doing your job. You're halfway there to enjoying life.
Daron Pratt: So, so yeah, passionate about children and families and faith and what it means to, to grow our kids to love and adore God for life.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , it's been a while that you've worked in this area, pastoring for children, , encouraging families, advocating for children. , I, I've seen you've put up posts on Facebook about,, the safety of children in our churches and that sort of thing.
Jarrod Stackelroth: I know you're very passionate about some of these areas. I think it'd be great. There's been some comments in the news around some of this stuff and we'll get to that in a second, but I just like before we start to hear a little bit about your journey into Children's Ministries, why Children's and Family Ministries?
Jarrod Stackelroth: How did, how did you land in that space? It's clearly your calling. , But, tell us a little bit about why.
Daron Pratt: Yes, well, grew up in a large family. I mean, there's lots of pastor Pratts around. If you have a look, there's, well, the [00:02:00] first generation of us, there's four of us in ministry. And then next generation, my son's a pastor and my niece is a pastor up north.
Daron Pratt: And so, there's a few of us around in ministry. But, , We've each had our own calling, and I guess for me, I came out of college wanting to be the next John Carter or Jeff Youlden. I wanted to reach the world. I wanted to be an evangelist. I wanted to make change. I wanted to win the world for Christ.
Daron Pratt: That's my passion. It burns in my heart. , and when you get placed into a church as a young intern, it's like, well, we want you to do this. So we want you to be a youth pastor, a youth pastor, but I want to be an evangelist. Well, we'll start with youth pastor. So I was youth pastor in Geelong, hired Geelong people and, , and did two years there, then moved down the coast and did Warrnambool, Portland, Hamilton on the Great Ocean Road.
Daron Pratt: Hi to all those people too. Great area to work as a pastor. But as I began to work in that area, I got called [00:03:00] into big camps and junior camps and blind camps and mentored , by the youth guys there at the time and, became chaplain in the local school. And I realized , that God was actually calling me to actually not just be an evangelist, not just be a youth pastor, but to open up where it was at and to aim lower.
Daron Pratt: In order to aim higher. And so I guess I've grown a space out of the years and began teaching S. R. E. or special scripture in our state schools and involved in that a lot as well. Still involved in that and chaplaincy and where I've been. I've sort of worked my way into reaching families and children. So it's been a journey over 30 years of ministry where God has kept coming back to me.
Daron Pratt: To reaching children and their families.
Zanita Fletcher: Amazing. You never know where it's going to send you. Hey. You mentioned,, before this conversation, before we press record, that you've been doing a little bit of research and study into the effects of media on kids and screens on kids. Can you just tell us a little bit [00:04:00] about, what you've found in that?
Zanita Fletcher: I think we all know that screen time or too much screen time is bad for us, but what are the actual effects that they're finding with that?
Daron Pratt: Yeah, well, it's interesting. Good question. , what, what,, not just one scientist, but a number of social psychologists, uh, discovering is together. Is that around the year 2010 to 2012, anxiety, depression, and this was actually kids being checked into hospitals for these things and even suicide, , attempts, , suddenly shot up, like not just a little bit, but shot up significantly.
Daron Pratt: The graphs went off the charts for all of those. Why are our kids suddenly becoming anxious? While they're suddenly becoming depressed and stressed and while they're saying they don't find meaning in life anymore and what they've identified Is that from the late 80s? 1980s that's sort of when I grew up and began to become a teenager late 80s into the 90s [00:05:00] childhood free play Went down.
Daron Pratt: That's where your kids went outside and kicked a football or climbed a tree or broke an arm or a leg, which never hurt anyone too much., but yeah, going out into the shop and picking up the milk, whatever else, being allowed to go on your own and do that., so outside activities and play went down. But around the year 2010 is when actually screens arrived and a mobile phone, a smartphone, , For our kids, not just for adults, but for our kids as well.
Daron Pratt: And the moment that kids started having a, if you like a computer in their pocket, , the correlation is that, anxiety, depression, and mental health issues all shot up significantly.
Jarrod Stackelroth: It's not just you drawing attention to this issue, Darren. , you mentioned just before we came on that the South Australian Premier, Go South Australia, shout out to them. , he actually came out and said that kids shouldn't have phones until something [00:06:00] like after they're 16 or 20. And that's really unusual for this generation. , I didn't get my first mobile phone until I went off to university sort of thing. Once I was finished high school, the kids these days are getting screens in their pockets younger and younger and younger. So it's made the headlines. Can you tell us a little bit about the conversation that's happening around screen time in the public sphere?
Daron Pratt: Yes. Jonathan Haidt has just pushed a book into bookstores called The Anxious Generation. And this is part of a worldwide conversation now, not just here in Australia. By the way, these graphs of depression and anxiety are in all Westernized countries and some other countries start from that way as well.
Daron Pratt: It's not just one country, it's the same everywhere. And so, I think now what they're saying is not just parents are fed up with what's going on here, but also a lot of our children, our young adults are as well. And they're saying something's happened. , we're all on our mobile phones, but we [00:07:00] all need to somehow get off our mobile phones to some extent or find some balance here, or at least not just for us, for the next generation of children coming behind us.
Daron Pratt: We need to do things differently. It's like this internet came out and it was fantastic, did some fantastic things. And I love technology. I have my iPad, my iPhone, my iWatch. I love it. , but he said when our kids are on a screen for 40 plus hours per week, that's in Australia. , well is that variety and balance and moderation and when bullying and anxiety and, , and just as quick, there's been a lot of talk about parents actually, , creating social media profiles for the kids and selling that, that data, , to adults, both for those that want to use for good, but those were not so good, created quite a anxiety as well around, well, what are we doing to our kids?
Daron Pratt: , and. Is it okay to just put the World Wide Web in the pocket of every child or is another way that we can [00:08:00] do this? Maybe go back to the old Nokia, which is still available, which just had the snack game , and basic texting. Do our kids really need a smartphone in their pocket and at what age is that appropriate?
Daron Pratt: So South Australia, last week is calling for no kid to have a smartphone until they reach high school. And that means that they can have a phone, right? But not why do they need a smart phone is the question that's been asked, especially for primary school kids. And then access to social media, it seems is so placing camera when it came out where you could actually take selfies, we had an issue as well and also the social media, especially for , our girls are hitting this far worse than boys.
Daron Pratt: Boys are addicted to gaming. Girls are more addicted to the likes and tweets and things on social media. And, , they're saying, well, We need to rethink this and maybe we don't allow our kids to go onto a social media profile till they turn 16. Is this what's being proposed right now? [00:09:00]
Zanita Fletcher: I'm really curious about this.
Zanita Fletcher: So when we're talking about, , we're kind of titling this like screen time and we often hear people talking about limiting screen time and not letting their kids have screens. Just to clarify, is there a distinction between or a difference between the different type of screens? Because I think like, when I look back on my childhood, , my parents allowed us to watch a little bit of TV and we had a computer in the house.
Zanita Fletcher: And , we had screen time, basically, and nowadays, I don't even own a television,, I have probably have watched one TV series in the last three years, I'm definitely not addicted, and I don't feel like it's really affected me that much, but is there a difference between those different types of screens, I guess is what I'm saying, , or is it kind of what you're saying, the computers in our pockets that are the really dangerous thing?
Daron Pratt: , screen time itself is not so much the issue, although there's, there's research around the lights, the blue light from the white noise, they call it that comes out of screens and sleep patterns. And they say that an hour before bed, we should really get our kids off [00:10:00] screen so that their circadian rhythms kick in and things like that for the better sleep patterns for them and for us as adults as well.
Daron Pratt: , but it's also, Are your kids consuming on their screens or are they creating? Creating is seen as a health food, the consuming is more seen as a junk food. So how much healthy screen time do you allow and how much junk screen time do you allow? , that's a big debate around that. But also, You could also make guarantee that if your kids have a phone, a smartphone in their bedroom or a computer or an iPad, they've most likely, whether accidentally or not, have discovered porn.
Daron Pratt: And it's not just soft porn, as you call it, it's hardcore, violent, choking, degrading porn that these kids are seeing before the age of 11. And that, for me, is an issue where our kids are getting addicted to even know what it [00:11:00] is and know what sex is sort of thing. So, it's like the enemy has plans for our children.
Daron Pratt: And the question is, do we sometimes want to come to these sorts of things?, we stopped our kids from playing because of stranger danger. We don't want our kids to be exposed to danger out there. But we've allowed the danger to creep into our very bedrooms. A bit of a dichotomy around stranger danger with a screen in their pocket and what they're accessing.
Daron Pratt: Also things like bullying. Used to be you went to school and, yeah, I got bullied, but you came home, you had a break, you reset, you start again next day. Whereas these days the bullying happens 24 7 on screen, which is not healthy for our kids as well. So I'm not saying ban screens. I'm not saying that screens are necessarily bad.
Daron Pratt: But I think there'd be a conversation around when and where we use screens and how we use screens. And where is the downtime off screens to allow. Kids to be kids and get outside and play again.
Jarrod Stackelroth: I guess we've got [00:12:00] a question that's come in, Darren, that's a little bit related to that. What would be the ideal screen time for kids four to nine and 10 to 15?
Jarrod Stackelroth: And maybe in answering that question, is there an ideal screen time? Or is it more like you said, about the type of screen time and, whether they're, creating, I assume you're meaning things like, I don't know, what are you meaning, , editing videos or playing with learning programs,
Daron Pratt: you can write music, you can, , You can make little movies, you can, yeah, using GarageBand, you can use, , even painting and drawing and all those sorts of things.
Daron Pratt: , You can do all those online and probably do a better job sometimes than just a bit of paper. So, yeah, when you're creating using for art or a hobby or research, things like that,, definitely, , great advantages in, , screen time. Most of the 40 hours that BAM is for boys, it's, it's gaming games like fortnight.
Daron Pratt: Some of [00:13:00] those that, , they just want to play again and again and again. And the problem is that kids have no breaks, especially the teens, the brain's designed to not have breaks. The breaks come off to allow to grow into the adult brain. And that's where it's most prone to addiction kicking in. So, , what they're saying is, and yes, the question, the ideal time for your kids, both four to nine and 10 to 15 would be for every hour online, two hours offline, and that's a rule having place.
Daron Pratt: And if, and often we're paying for our kids to have their mobile smartphone. So if we can. , as a parent really, we're paying for it and we put in place some really good technology agreements of the family before we give our kids a smartphone and help them to come up with the plan of what we're going to do and the consequences of breaking those rules.
Daron Pratt: The kids themselves have been raised to more like to abide by the rules that the family put in place. As David Gillespie, an Australian lawyer says in his book, The Teen [00:14:00] Brain. The parents need to harden up and parents in this space just got that parent in every other space. And often the tech companies are parenting our kids more than we are.
Daron Pratt: So yeah, the good rule is for every hour online, two hours offline, preferably outside with lots of green and lots of blue, the green and the blue help the brain reset and stop those addictive tendencies , from ramping up. If we can. Reset by keeping them offline and outside.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah, my guess is that a lot of parents understand the risks and the negative things that come with screen time, but that it's a struggle probably because most people are having to, both partners are both having to work jobs, and so they've got a lot on their plate, they've got a lot to do, and they just probably want that break.
Zanita Fletcher: If I was a parent, I would imagine giving myself like, a kid screen just to like, get some stuff done. , so for parents who are like, [00:15:00] I guess running the treadmill, who are running mad and just want that break but don't necessarily want to give them a screen, have you like, thought of some good things that they can be actually doing with their kids that help them get that break but not necessarily just pass them a screen.
Daron Pratt: Yeah. Well, it's interesting right now is that back when, um, we had my, my children, baby dummies were a popular thing to buy, to help them to suck on, to pacify them. As I say, when they're crying and whatever else to calm them down, they actually found that, , the mobile phone or the screens are better pacifier.
Daron Pratt: So babies have been given screens to watch and you can actually have prams now that have a little haul run for the parents. screen, another holder on it for the baby's screen. So you're pushing your child down the road and they're watching their screen and you're watching your screen. , , so, so that's out there and, and it does happen.
Daron Pratt: , yeah, obviously parents do need a break, but,, my boss, I mean, if you're going to give your kid a screen time, the same below to age of two, no, no screens at [00:16:00] all. , not at all. But after the age of two, maybe I can start looking at a little bit of screen time. Louie's a very popular show to watch and some of those sorts of things.
Daron Pratt: So, but also watching those sorts of things together, mom and child or father child, so that you can have a discussion around that as well. And, , I find that parents doing screen time with their children is far more valuable than just handing the mobile phone and telling them to be quiet and sit in the corner.
Daron Pratt: , that interaction is really powerful and important as well.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Let's talk a little bit about faith, Darren. , what's the importance of our children. I know you're a big advocate again for, reaching our children when they're young with the gospel and actually making sure that we're setting good foundations, faith foundations there. What are some of the dangers and some of the benefits that we can have in terms of building the faith of our children?
Jarrod Stackelroth: With, when it comes to screens, when it comes to technology.
Daron Pratt: Yes. , good question., and as a segue into that. [00:17:00] Jonathan Haidt recent book I read last week. And he's, if you Google him, there's a lot of, podcastings from him right now. But he said that increased phone use or screen use results in spiritual degradation.
Daron Pratt: Now, that was interesting. , Because he said it's just what it does. It takes you away from connection. It takes you away from serving. It's more of an I feeling than a we feeling. And, when you take a piece of church involved in the community, it's all about we and us and community and fueling one community, whereas despite the phones mean to connect us, they actually disconnect us.
Daron Pratt: I mean, for a boy to play a game these days, you can't just go into a room and pick up all your computers. You've got to go out to your own room. on your own network of your own headset, being on discord and yeah, so it actually pushes boys further and further apart. And what Jonathan Haidt says is actually causing boys to withdraw from society right now because you can be [00:18:00] more, more, a man online than you can be actually in real life space.
Daron Pratt: And that's another discussion,, around masculinity , and all the things around that. I also do men's ministry as part of my hats as well. So I. I'm passionate about men and real men and authentic men in their homes and places. But back to passing on faith, , and as David Gillespie says, screens aren't a part of our life.
Daron Pratt: You can't just say that kids, no more screens are all going into the bin. , it's got to go. , it's part of our life. Kids language is screen. So we need to think about, how we curate that and, and what that looks like for our kids at what age we do give them a smartphone. , and also then how do we use that for spirituality and I guess I've just released an app of ironically I'm talking about screen, but I've also just used an app that is on our screen.
Daron Pratt: So I'm designed to help parents be as shiny as possible in passing on [00:19:00] faith because all the research says if we want to pass on lifelong faith to our children, then it's not the church. It's not the school. It's what happens in the home that is most important. Now, the church can help and the school can help, but they can only put the icing on the cake.
Daron Pratt: Fake transference occurs in our 24 seven getting up, going to school, going to work, picking up the kids, taking them home, going to sport, whatever we do in our 24 seven living is where fake transference is most likely to occur. And then the church can come in and add. It's layers on top of that. So that's really challenging for me as a dad, but also now as a brand new granddad as to what a grandparent does in that space with their grandchild.
Daron Pratt: So that's a whole new ball game for me too, with my brand new grandson, which I'm crying about. But yeah., grandparents have a role to play transparency as well. So [00:20:00] I guess a lot of my work with the app is trying to help our homes be as intentional as possible. With what it means to pass on faith in the 24 7 living of a busy life.
Zanita Fletcher: Hmm. Awesome. Yeah, I guess we forget that, , these days, apps and probably platforms like TikTok and Instagram, they're actually designed to be like addictive and hold our attention
Daron Pratt: , they employ psychologists that work for these companies to say, how can we make these more addictive?
Daron Pratt: And they know if they get the kids online. And addicted to pornography, to gaming, to social media, those pathways are set and it's really hard to break out of those, whatever that addiction might be. The same addictions for screen time, according to the research I've read with David Gillespie, is the same pathways for tobacco, for alcohol, for drugs, for all of those.
Daron Pratt: And the teenage brain, is primed for addiction. it would be allowed to get wired in during those 10 [00:21:00] years. Then it's often there for life and it's very, very hard to break. Yeah,
Zanita Fletcher: it's interesting. Even the Bible app has changed over time because initially it was, it would have these four minute videos on the front screen and now it's just a 10 second video, a 10 second Bible verse.
Zanita Fletcher: Like I think it gets that people don't have that attention span anymore. So it's had to minimize the content to be really.
Daron Pratt: Well,
Zanita Fletcher: that's again,
Daron Pratt: what's happened with screen time is it's reducing our attention span. And, That can affect all sorts of things in life when, when your attention is being diverted elsewhere, but there's this constant changing of,, and changing up where you've got to, And this is a bit like addiction where you've got to sort of keep changing it up because the dopamine is hitting more and more and more and the dopamine causes a lot more and more and more.
Daron Pratt: So, so the addiction cycle kicks in very, very quickly. So, but yeah, there's some great apps. Great christian apps. Great. We're not having part of the king's kids and the auntie's shack. It's all on YouTube designed to help families to worship [00:22:00] Bible buddies is out now. , designed to help families do a worship with part of the worship project that the Australian union conferences got out.
Daron Pratt: Great little family worship in the morning. So technology can help us. But the question is, do we rule technology? Or you allow it to rule us. And what does that variety, balance and moderation look like? And we as adults, especially us dads, need to model what that looks like for our kids.
.
Jarrod Stackelroth: , we did have a question. Any symptoms or tips to help, I guess that symptoms of like, , seeing , when your child is becoming addicted to something,, and how to help kids with screen addiction, I guess beyond that, , in what you were just saying, are there any tips, I guess to, to model that positive?
Jarrod Stackelroth: Screen time or to set those boundaries to give healthy direction to our Children. We like to get practical here in record live, and I think, , our conversation is heading in that direction. So how do we help? How do we solve some of these problems? [00:23:00]
Daron Pratt: Yes. Well, , again, Jonathan H who wrote that book, The Anxious Generation.
Daron Pratt: Suggests that, , number one, we need to get our parents together on this and realize that we are the village. And again, often we are battling these screen addictions, and things and mobile phones alone with our kids. Not every family is battling the same. And, I'm finding churches are trouble around it.
Daron Pratt: Getting teen parents together to have a discussion around this,, is very beneficial and, and brings out some great ideas. Hey, we're all in this together. But John says, if parents agreed that we weren't going to give our kids a phone until a certain age, and we all agreed to that, then it keeps up the Jones effect gets lost and we're all in this.
Daron Pratt: No, well, I can't say, well, well, Johnny's got one and my friend, this person got one more. Sorry. No, Johnny's parents said no like we have. And we're all in this together to, to the village. Look after our kids. So, so rely on [00:24:00] the village. Number one. , as I said earlier, for every hour online, get your kids offline and outside to help wrap their addiction.
Daron Pratt: The green and the blue, the sea, the ocean, the bush, , often there's no wifi out there, so it's a great way to distract. And we as dads and mum need to get out there without kids and take on walks and hikes and adventures, not when there's eating. They're occurring. , yeah, , the addiction tendencies tend to drop.
Daron Pratt: , but also that allows the brain to reset. But yeah, having those,, having those boundaries in place so that the kids know that a certain time they're off their screens and having those rules around no technology around the dinner table, no technology in the bedrooms, maybe not in the bathrooms, , knowing how long that can be online for.
Daron Pratt: And often our kids say I've got homework to do. Well sorry, your kid's doing eight hours of homework on a screen. They're not doing homework. I can tell you that. , [00:25:00] most teachers say two hours at the most at a senior level will be what screen time will be needed. Each evening. , but generally, no.
Daron Pratt: Online all night. They're playing games. They're chatting. They're doing other things. Not doing homework. So we need to harden up as parents and parents in that space as well. Also, another thing to do is. Have a good mainframe. That's the best technology that money can buy and put it in a main space in your home so that kids gravitate to the best technology and having a mainframe with all the whiz bang whistles means your kid's going to access that in a public space so that when they do encounter untoward things, you as a parent can see what they're doing and can have a conversation around that.
Daron Pratt: And that reduces the effects of what they're looking at. Because they're going to see the bad stuff. We have to teach them how to negotiate the bad stuff in life. And having a conversation with them drops the effects of that bad stuff on them pretty [00:26:00] quickly.
Zanita Fletcher: That's some awesome practical advice there.
Zanita Fletcher: , so thank you for sharing that. Can you tell us just quickly a little bit more about your app? Is this something, I might have missed this earlier. Is this something for parents or is this something for children?
Daron Pratt: This app is written for parents, so mainly parents of the 0 to 14 age area where most decisions are made according to research.
Daron Pratt: Most kids make a lifelong decision to follow Jesus before, they reach their teenage years, and so I'm aiming for that space. And it's designed around things like building blocks of faith, what are they? So it might be mentoring, putting mentors in your kids marks. It's around strong marriages. It's around godly parents.
Daron Pratt: It's around telling stories, spending time with your children and serving together are the main building blocks of faith. And so every morning, if you allow notifications, there's a little idea around, what can I do , to grow my children in the faith today? And there's some parenting [00:27:00] tips there. And then in the evening, there's here's an idea of how you can do a worship with your family's nice.
Daron Pratt: So the different worship ideas, some are online, some are offline with what they can do with their children. , it might be play your favorite Spotify song and why is it your favorite song and things like that. So encouraging discussion around godly things because the research is saying if parents do one thing during the week to turn the hearts of their children and their family to God, that's far more powerful than anything preached from the pulpit.
Daron Pratt: So the aim is I'm dripping different ideas. Knowing that my family's in a busy schedule, do one of those things. It's a win for the kingdom, it's a win for faith, it's a win for me as a pastor, and growing faith in the family.
Jarrod Stackelroth: That's fantastic and encouraging for us as parents. , it is hard sometimes to, keep the kids off the screens, but it's also, , encouraging to hear that [00:28:00] if we're doing things at home that build the faith. During the week, we're going a long way to giving our kids a good foundation, , for their futures, , in the faith.
Jarrod Stackelroth: I'd encourage you, if you're watching this, check out Darren's app. It sounds very practical. Very helpful. , Darren, we could talk about so many more things, pornography and the impact of mentors on children. , so I think we'll have to get you back at some point on to record live in the future, but it's been a really great conversation today.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Hey, thanks so much for sharing,, your insights and your wisdom with us.
Zanita Fletcher: Yeah, thanks so much.
Jarrod Stackelroth: Is there anything you'd like to leave us with? Just in a nutshell, one thing, before we switch off, before we say goodbye, what's the one thing that you could give to us , as viewers of this program this week to take with us?
Daron Pratt: Yeah, I guess one thing I often say is that children spell love. As T I M E time. So [00:29:00] for us as parents and grandparents and mentors, how can we create quality time off screen with our children, preferably outside. And yeah, one of those moments we can spend quality time with them. That is a powerful, powerful, spiritual growth motivator.
Daron Pratt: And , when children. feel close to their parents and have that quality time. All other indicators tend to drop depression, anxiety, all of those drops significantly. So the big thing is spend quality time with your kids when you can.
Zanita Fletcher: Awesome. Love it.. Well thank you again for coming on and speaking with us today.
Zanita Fletcher: Everyone we will be back next week for another episode of Record Life.
Daron Pratt: God bless. Thank you.