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Welcome to the Pretty Okay Podcast, a chill (but sometimes spicy) small business podcast for people who are crazy enough to have one. Hosted by the Founder of Enji, Tayler Cusick Hollman, we cover everything from basic business practices to small business marketing. We sit down with some of our favorite small business owners and experts who share their stories, real-life experiences, and advice, all while keeping it (very) real and honest.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:00:04:
Welcome everyone to this episode of the Pretty Okay Podcast. I am your host, Tayler Hollman. And today I have one of my favorite podcast and small business owning friends here to talk all about Lead Gen. Because really, who doesn't want more potential customers? So Davey, thank you so much for taking the time to have this chat with me. And welcome to the podcast.
Davey Jones - 00:00:31:
Yeah, thank you so much. I'm pumped to be here. It's been fun having you on my podcast a few times now. So I'm excited to continue that conversation. I'm also excited to be receiving questions, not have to go through the work of figuring out questions to ask.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:00:46:
Right. It's always nice to just show up and be the talent that I was just talking about earlier. And not have all of the responsibilities. So just in case anyone who's tuning in to the podcast hasn't heard of you or met you before on the vastness of the internet. Can you give us a quick introduction of who you are and what you specialize in? Because you wear multiple hats.
Davey Jones - 00:01:12:
Yeah, yeah. And that's why you're one of my favorite people to talk about just business with is because you get that, right? I mean, running Enji and the Pretty Okay Podcast and all of the other things that you do from your copywriting business and so on. And in a similar way, I run multiple businesses as well. I'm the CEO of a tech company that right now is called SumoMe. And so that's a recent acquisition. SumoMe is a tool that helps with lead generation specifically. So basically think forms and pop-ups to your website. If you're looking to build an email list, SumoMe is a tool that can help with that. By the time this episode releases, we'll have actually rebranded. So be on the lookout for that. So if you're searching for SumoMe, you should still be able to find SumoMe, but it will probably be under a new brand name. So that's exciting and that's coming. I also help my wife run a brand and website design agency. And so I've been doing that for over 10 years now. I mean, it's been a long time. And love that world, love that side of things. I think that's how maybe me and you met originally was just through that side of things. You know, I can't remember. Can you remember? Maybe it was through copywriting or something like that.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:02:29:
Yeah, I think we first met in person at the Showit Conference in 2019. But you and I had connected right after I left the previous startup I was at. So that was like 2018.
Davey Jones - 00:02:48:
Yeah, it's been a while now. So yeah, and I love that. I love that world. You know, I love the brand and website design world. I love running that agency with her. In the middle there, I've also recently left another agency that I helped co-found, which is a paid advertising agency. And, you know, for the brand and website design side of things, it's so much fun running that with her. My side of things has always been marketing and lead gen. And so like the content that we produce that actually that I write is mostly focused on those things because I'm not a designer, you know, and it's funny. A lot of people just assume, you know, because the brand is called Davey & Krista, right? So if you go to daveyandkrista.com, you can find out more about that. So they're, you know, they'll ask me design questions. I'm like, you are asking the wrong person, you know, like Krista picks out my clothes in the morning. That's, you know, I have no sense of design.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:03:37:
That's so hilarious. I mean, I love watching the banter of, you know, you and Krista are working together. Because that's one of the other things that we have in common is that we both work with our spouses. And typically I tell people that for 99.9% of folks, I don't recommend working with your spouse. It's just a very different experience. You have to have these two very different relationships with your spouse, right? Like, you know, your spouse is your spouse and then your spouse is your coworker. And the way I like to explain it is sometimes my spouse is my coworker really frustrates me. But then I have to have like a delightful dinner with my spouse's my spouse.
Davey Jones - 00:04:20:
That's right. And it's so hard.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:04:21:
It can be in conflict.
Davey Jones - 00:04:23:
Yeah, yeah. And it's so hard to transition between those, right? It takes a lot of practice, a lot of work. And yeah, I mean, it can definitely be tough at times, but as you know, also very rewarding and really enjoyable to, you know, work on deep problems together.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:04:37:
Yep, absolutely. So today we are going to talk about lead gen. Which I think is a little bit of a jargony term and might make people think that they don't know what lead gen is. When really they do, if you were to explain it in plain English. So will you help everyone understand what lead gen is in like, you know, put on your teacher hat. And break down this concept in really simple terms for us.
Davey Jones - 00:05:08:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think you're exactly right when people talk about lead generation. When I talk about SumoMe as a lead generation tool, people are like, what's that? I'm like, I think forms, pop-ups, people putting their email address in, getting something for free, right? That's all part of the lead gen game. So simply put, lead gen is, or a lead, is just somebody who has expressed interest in your product or service. So everybody intuitively knows what a lead is. Somebody who has raised their hand and said, yeah, I'm interested in hearing more about that on some level. That's a lead. When we talk about lead generation, we're usually talking about a system that encourages people to express interest in our products or services. So typically when you hear about people talk about lead generation, they're talking about creating some sort of active system that gets people to express interest in whatever you're doing.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:06:01:
Yep, that's, I mean... And it's so important for both product and service-based businesses to be aware of how they're generating leads for their business, even though it looks a little bit different. Depending on what your business's core function is focused on.
Davey Jones - 00:06:22:
Yeah, for sure.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:06:23:
So when it comes to that terrible situation, where a small business owner finds himself without enough leads. Why do you think that that happens? And how do you think that that happens? I mean, I have opinions about this and hypotheses, but I'd love to hear your thoughts about how people find themselves in that situation.
Davey Jones - 00:06:49:
Yeah, yeah. So I think it comes out in one of a few different ways, but really I think in the beginning, your businesses, I think, suffer from a similar mistake, different ends of the spectrum though. So I guess what I'm trying to get at is, you have businesses that when they get started, things just sort of take off, word of mouth. And maybe they started their business as a side hustle. And so as a side hustle, they just find that word of mouth inquiries are as much as they can handle. And so things are really good in the beginning. And while things are good, they're not necessarily thinking about where the next lead is coming from, right? They're thinking, okay, well, this word of mouth thing is working. I don't really have to work hard for this word of mouth thing. And so those are just coming. But then eventually comes a season where it's like, oh, the inquiries have slowed down, you know, people aren't purchasing as much as they used to. And they've only relied passively on word of mouth inquiries in the past. And so they're not in a position really to go out and find work quickly because they haven't created that system of lead generation that we were alluding to earlier. You know, on the other end of the spectrum, I think there's people who, when they first start to build a business, they just, they take a, if we build it, they will come approach. Approach. And so basically think like, you know, if I go invest in a really great website and a really great brand, or if I put together, you know, whatever, people are just going to show up. And what they fail to realize is that, you know, you might have a really compelling brand, but if you're not getting that brand out in front of people, then, you know, people are just not going to hear about you, right? And so there's that mistake. And I think along those lines, thinking that you have to have like all of the things together before you start going out and sharing. I think that's another. A common mistake I see as well. And I actually, I would say that a lot of people who make that mistake, I think are experienced business owners, you know, like people who are doing it again. And they forget that when they're starting maybe their first business and it was more of a side hustle and it was more natural just to bring up with people what you were doing. Right. They think, okay, well now I'm building this other business. I want to do it the, you know, "right way". And so I need to go out and make sure that I have my brand completely fleshed out. I need to make sure I go and invest a lot of time and energy into this website, without taking the very elementary steps of just simply sharing with your community, what it is that you're doing and seeing engaging interest.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:09:14:
Yeah, and one of the interesting things about marketing and lead gen, is that there's a lag time to all of this, right? It's like farming, where you have to sow the seeds and do all of this work and pour all of this effort and energy into something, before you ever get to reap the rewards. And so the longer that people lean on the, if I build it, they will come, or I don't need to market my business because everything is from word of mouth referrals. That just lengthens that gap in between where you are and where your next lead might come from. And it's something that I hear people, they say that to me all the time. Like, oh, all of my clients and customers come from word of mouth. So like, I really don't need to do X, Y, and Z. And a little bit of he dies inside every time I hear that.
Davey Jones - 00:10:11:
Yeah.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:10:11:
Because I... I mean, I kind of want to shake them, but no shaken baby syndrome here. No shaken baby syndrome here. But, it's just one of those unproductive states of denial. That a small business owner can put themselves in and then eventually find themselves in this really sticky situation. So when someone starts to feel those heebie-jeebies,when should they really start to stress about the fact that their lead gen isn't really working for them? Or when should they maybe be a little bit patient about it?
Davey Jones - 00:10:52:
Yeah, that's a great question. And just to your earlier point there, you were just talking about how, you know, people, when they think it's, when things are good and they're just getting word of mouth inquiries, they're not worried about it. But, you know, I think, especially in the beginning, what people fail to realize is that you can rely on word of mouth inquiries. Like you can create a system around word of mouth inquiries, but you want to make sure that you've created that system, that you understand the mechanisms that are leading to those word of mouth inquiries and that you're encouraging them. Because, you know, it's great if those are passively coming from you. Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking that. That's great. You're, you're doing good work, obviously, because, you know, people are referring you. However, when those slow down, you want to understand what mechanisms are in place so that you can keep that system going so that you're the one putting or enabling people to share about you more easily. So even if you have strong word of mouth inquiries right now, you know, consider formalizing a system around that, you know, how can you put different things in place that encourage people to go out and share about you. And understand like, who it is that's referring you? Because even have an understanding of who that is, especially if you're a product-based business, you want to make sure that, okay, when things are slow, maybe you can go back to them and see, you know, what's going on. Are they in a season where maybe they're, you're not top of mind anymore, or maybe they're not recommending your service or your product product anymore. Those are all things that are really good to know. But anyways, to get back to your question about when someone should start to stress versus maybe when somebody should be patient. I think that, honestly there's a healthy level of paranoia, right? That all business owners I think should just maintain when it comes to lead generation, right? And I'm not saying that you should live in a constant state of being stressed out, but I do think like always just having the sense of, okay, where are leads coming from? How are they getting to me? How do these different cohorts of people convert? That's all really good things to have your thumb on. And it's really easy to do that. I mean, putting together a spreadsheet and just tracking where every inquiry is coming from. If you run a service-based business and having some really simple columns. Okay. So you can keep track of how many inquiries you're getting on a monthly basis, what the source of those inquiries are. How do you figure that out? Just ask, you know, on your contact form, you should only ask the number of questions that you absolutely need answers to. That is one of the questions you should ask and know where your inquiries coming from. And that way you can double down on those areas where you get a lot of inquiries. And that's a very simple way just to keep track of where your leads are coming from and maybe start to develop a system around those areas. So always be analyzing that. As far as like patience versus being stressed, you know, I think that, especially if you're getting started or you're getting started on a new channel, you're doing something new, you just have to be patient. I think your analogy of farming is spot on, all right? Like you just have to realize that, you know, it's not, you're not going to grow that crop overnight, right? You want to like, especially if you're starting a new channel, you want to focus on that channel and make sure that you do it at least a hundred times, right? So like, if you're trying to drive inquiries from Instagram, you know, going and posting five, 10 times and saying, oh, this isn't working. No one likes this, or no one's engaging or whatever. You've only posted five or 10 times. Do it a hundred times and then assess whether it's working or not. And that doesn't mean you can't reflect along the way and make adjustments, but commit to it. And what committing to it actually looks like is trying it at least a hundred times. And then you can make a decision as to whether you want to invest time and energy into that channel or not. I look back at a lot of my old content now across different channels, and I cringe a little bit, you know, because it's just not at the level I'm at right now. But I had to create that bad content. You know, I had to go through the process of, you know, creating that maybe some cringeworthy content here and there in order to get to where I am now, you know? So I think that there is just a level of patience that people need to have, really just in business, but especially around creating a lead generation system across different channels.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:15:02:
Marketing is an experiment.
Davey Jones - 00:15:04:
100%.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:15:04:
Right? And so you do have to create that cringe content. You know, make mistakes. The big thing also is when you're running an experiment. Talking about tracking certain things, you know, this is not a KPI conversation, but oh my gosh, like if no one is tracking their efforts, then you don't actually know where to lean into and where to lean out of when you're trying to make decisions about what you're going to do next. And so that's why within Enji, like tracking lead sources, tracking how many inquiries versus booked clients versus new customers that you get, is something that I'm kind of a broken record about.
Davey Jones - 00:15:50:
Yeah.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:15:50:
So, you know, other reasons why you and I, on the marketing side of things, are just like two-pieced of a pod. Because I love that we are constantly talking about the same thing, but phrasing it a little bit differently. So, you know, we're both doing the work that's needed to really drill these concepts into people's brains.
Davey Jones - 00:16:15:
Yeah. And even when you get started too, like it doesn't become any less important to track things like KPIs. I mean, now over on the agency side of things, like we have a team and we're on a lot of different channels, you know, and we've grown to the point where we can, you know, have a strategy on YouTube and a strategy on Pinterest and a strategy on Instagram and so on and so forth. But even then every quarter, we have a focus on one specific area. So, you know, last quarter to end 2023, we focused on Pinterest and this quarter in a quarter one of 2024, we're focusing on YouTube. And YouTube, unlike Pinterest is a relatively new platform for us, at least a new platform for us to create some consistency on, right? And so our strategy is a little bit different. You know, it's not like Pinterest where we're really trying to optimize what I think are already pretty good metrics, right? It's basically like, hey, how do we create a consistent strategy here that we can commit to over the long haul? And so, you know, just our mindset about it is a little bit different, like we understand we're not going to create a video and it's going to just go viral, you know? And there's, we're not going to, we're not, I mean, hopefully, you know, we create some videos that get more views, right? But at the same time, like that's not really the point. So we realize we'll probably have to create a number of videos that don't get a lot of views in order to start creating really good videos.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:17:37:
Yeah. And, you know, that's a great segue into something I definitely wanted to ask you is, what are the quick fix or short-term tactics that someone can use to increase leads? Because, you know, you were talking about how with YouTube and turning up that marketing channel and strategy, that it's not going to be a quick fix, right? There's going to be a lag time between getting off of the starting line and actually booking folks from it. So, what are the things that someone can do that are a lighter lift?
Davey Jones - 00:18:16:
Yeah, no, that's a great question. And, you know, it's very simple. Go out and share that you're looking for work. You know, it's really as simple as that. And I think that's the thing about lead gen that I think really confuses people is that they think it's a lot more complicated than it actually is. And if you think back to when you first started your business, right? And how that got going, you know, it probably started because you picked up, you know, maybe some sort of hobby or you started a side hustle that's something you were interested in and you were doing. And somebody came along and said, hey, can I actually hire you to go and do that? And you said, yeah, you know, yeah, sure. And then in the course of you sharing about that and other people sharing that they're working with you, you know, it started leading to work, you know, but it really just started because you told somebody you're interested in doing X, Y, Z, you know? So going out and sharing that you're looking for work, and I'm not suggesting that you beg, but sometimes it's as easy as going into a Facebook group that, you know, is related to maybe website design and saying, hey, I'm a copywriter and I have two open done for you copywriting spots for this month, you know, and all of a sudden, my guess is that there's at least two people out there in the world looking for copywriting to be done for their website and just starting that conversation. And so going to understanding what your industry ecosystem looks like, there's probably Facebook groups that are related to what you do, but there are probably networking events near you as well. There are other people who work in, you know, complimentary services, right? And so like for us, right, we run a brand new website design agency. You run a copywriting agency. And so, you know, speaking of two peice in a pod, right? So us raising our hand and saying, hey, Tayler, you know, works a little slow for us right now. Do you have any clients that might be interested in working with us? You know, and that's not begging. And people come to us all the time that do related things like that, whether it be copywriting or something else. And just say, hey, you know, I have some more availabilities than I usually do coming up. If you have somebody that you think might be a good fit for us, let us know. And we're always quick to like elevate that person to the top of our list of recommending them. And typically, we weren't not recommending them for any reason. But now they're top of mind, right? And so that's a really simple way to, you know, to go out and find some work, to go out and find some leads. I remember when Krista was running her wedding photography business, which is the first business she ever started. And if she thought that inquiries or bookings weren't where she wanted them to be. And she would know because she had this very rudimentary spreadsheet that she was using tools, great tools like Enji didn't exist yet, right? To automate that. But if they weren't where she wanted them to be, what she would do is she'd send handwritten notes. And small, unbranded, all right? Unbranded gifts to planners in the area. Basically just saying, hey, we would love to work with you in this upcoming season. You know, let me know if there's any way that I can serve you or something like that. And little stuff like that would work, you know? And it doesn't take much time or energy to do that. So keeping those sorts of things in mind, I think are an easy way to drum up work in the short-term. But you should still be working on those long-term plays. Especially when it comes to doing something like building an email list. Because if somebody wants to generate revenue quickly, they can go to their email list to do that. But you would have to have built the email list, right? That is one of our most reliable. And if you talk to business owners, especially business owners that are doing anything at scale, what is your most reliable sales and marketing channel? It's probably going to be email. So if you want quick wins in the future, focus right now on building an email list.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:21:57:
Yeah, and that's something that I personally use a combination of over with my consulting business, is I have put effort into building an email list. And about once a quarter, I just have a templated email newsletter that goes out and I share my availability. Actually, in fact, the day that we are recording this, that was my social media, my Instagram post as well today. It's like, hey, this is where Davey and I are with where we're booking clients. So if you want to get on our calendar. Now's the time to reach out. And I think that the big lesson here, or maybe it's not a lesson. It's like the emotional thing that people. Or that people let themselves like fester in and keeps them from just talking about the fact that, hey, I'm available for work. Is that I think there's some level of shame or embarrassment that people feel. If they are available for work, that that's a bad thing. And so just get over that.
Davey Jones - 00:23:08:
Yeah.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:23:08:
This is your side to get over that.
Davey Jones - 00:23:10:
Yeah. And that's the thing.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:23:11:
Start building your email list.
Davey Jones - 00:23:13:
Yeah, start building your email list, but then also realize, and I think this goes back to like building relationships as well as like every business owner I've ever met has been in some season where leads are slower or work is slower or whatever. So there's never any shame in raising your hand to other people who are also business owners and saying, hey, listen, I could use, you know, more work right now. And, you know, just expressing that in a way that's, you know, it doesn't put a ton of pressure on the person that you're expressing it to. But I think, you know, what you'll find is that people will understand.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:23:47:
Yes, people will understand because we're all living the same life.
Davey Jones - 00:23:50:
100%.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:23:52:
We talked about email lists. So how do you recommend people build one because this is another one of those things that as a marketing professional, I think is relatively easy marketing machine to build, though it takes time to get momentum with it. And so, I also think that small business owners in general, think that it's like the opposite, where it's this massive complicated thing to get started. So again, please, Davey, break it down.
Davey Jones - 00:24:27:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. As far as the longer play tactics go in terms of leads, I would say two things. One, relationships, which we just touched on, you know, relationships just take time to build. That's just the reality, right? You can't force those things. Some people you hit it off with a little bit faster than others, but in general, it's going to take time to build that trust with others. But the other thing is building an email list. And I think it's probably the most important asset that you can invest time and energy into. And again, I think if you pulled 10 businesses that seem to be doing well, ask them what their most valuable asset was, like email list would be towards the top of that list. Those businesses that you hear about that are always doing five, six, seven figure launches, it's because they built an email list. All right. It's not because that they have hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram, and they might have that, and that might be beneficial, but it's because they built an email list. And that's why you can have such predictable and revenue for launches like that. So, you know, there's businesses that sell out every time they open up mini sessions, or when they release a new product, it's because they built an email list. So if a business is operating at scale, they probably poured a lot of time and energy into building their email list. And I think building an email list, easiest way, corresponding via your email list to bring somebody from having maybe not really heard of you, not being super familiar with you, to being like, oh yeah, heck yeah, this is exactly what I need. So, like everything else, people like to overcomplicate what it looks like to build an email list. And I think it can be broken down into three steps. All right. Really one, figuring out what quick win can you deliver. All right. And I think this is where people get really hung up because they think that what they have to do is create a 500 page ebook to get somebody on their email list. No, and I would argue that the more complicated you make it, the worse it's going to perform, all right? What people want is a quick win. If I'm looking, if I have a problem that I want solved, the quicker that you can get me to a solution, the better, all right? And some of the best courses I've bought aren't courses with 85 hours worth of material. It's a course that was three hours. It might've been expensive, but it was three hours and it delivered exactly what I needed. So figure out what quick win you can deliver people. Create a landing page that you can promote. Said, quick win. And then, you know, you'll want to create some sort of opt-in form. Again, SumoMe is a great tool for that. I'm a little biased, of course. And then deliver what you promise, all right? So just deliver what you promise in email. And so it's really as simple as like figuring out what quick win you can deliver people. And then, you know, once they're on your email list, sharing everything you know about that thing, all right? And it's as simple as that. You don't have to write if you're not a really long-winded person. You don't have to have emails that are really long and have really fun windy stories. You know, it can be short and to the point. On the other hand, if you're a great storyteller and want to write emails that are, you know, 900 plus words long, you can do that, but it's really as simple as like figuring out what value you can deliver and then continually delivering that value.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:27:47:
Yeah, and to find that value. Like most things in marketing, this boils down to knowing your customers.
Davey Jones - 00:27:57:
Yeah.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:27:57:
Right. And so, I love the way you talk about delivering a quick win, right? And so what you want to get to know about your customers is what is their acute problem, right? What is like the pain point that is a thorn in their side and keeping them from doing something in the moment and immediate? And that's a great lead magnet freebie to tie into your opt-in, right? Because it's that quick win, it's going to make their life better today.
Davey Jones - 00:28:30:
Yeah.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:28:31:
And a 500 page ebook. It's not that.
Davey Jones - 00:28:34:
And you think about those things that are like a lot harder and more complicated to create. You run the risk of spending a lot of time and energy into something that, you know, just might not convert, right? And so one of the ways that you can easily test out what might convert is by going back and looking through Instagram and social posts, wherever it is that you are posting. And looking at what performs a little bit better. Like what posts have you created recently that's related to what you do that has gotten a lot of engagement? And maybe not even just a lot of engagement in terms of comments, but a lot of engagement in terms of saves. You know, I know for Instagram, for us, like that's one of the key metrics we're looking at is saves and not just likes. You know, likes are pretty meaningless to us. Not that they can't be good indicators, but we'd rather see comments and saves than we would likes, right? So there's all sorts of easy ways to test out what ideas might work before you actually go put the effort into creating some sort of download. And I'm saying download, but it doesn't even have to be a download. Whatever way you're most comfortable delivering value, that can be your lead magnet. So that can be a quick video, you know, instead of a download. It can be put in the form of a Google Doc. You know, like people don't really care as much how it looks, you know, and I know that's more important to some brands than it is for others. But at the end of the day, people want the value. That's what matters to them. So, you know, you could create something real quickly. Maybe you're using like Google Slides or Google Docs to actually deliver it. And then realize, oh, wow, this is really working. People love this. Then you can iterate on it from there and continue to make it better.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:30:11:
Yeah, one of the first lead magnets that I put together for my consulting business that ended up being a core feature of Enji was a Google Sheets that was like a KPI template, right? Now, I've built out a whole KPI dashboard that's way fancier and easier to use. But it was literally a Google Sheets that I was just giving people access to.
Davey Jones - 00:30:38:
Yeah.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:30:39:
And it took me 10 minutes to create.
Davey Jones - 00:30:41:
And think about what that did for you as well. I mean, like that helps you prove out some of the ideas probably around Enji, you know? And so like building email, email list is one of the best ways to validate ideas too. You know, like either people are going to be signing up for your email list to learn more about that or get that solution or they're not. And if they're not, then, you know, maybe you should reconsider, you know, that product that you were thinking about building or that service that you were thinking about offering. So it's really a great way. Building an email list just has so many functions. I mean, not only is it such a predictable source of revenue, but it will also help you prove out ideas and get feedback from your potential customers and clients more quickly.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:31:21:
So now that we're not in the weeds, but we've talked about the lead gen machine. So what then, Davey Jones, are your favorite tools to build this machine now that we know conceptually what it needs to consist of.
Davey Jones - 00:31:42:
Yeah, for sure. And just to reiterate what it consists of, right? I mean, you need a way for people to express interest in something. Typically, that's done with contact information, right? Typically, somebody doesn't count as a lead if they're just following you on Instagram. Because while you can see the people following Instagram, it doesn't create any sort of direct conversation. So typically, somebody is going to count as a lead if you've gotten their phone number or you've gotten their email address, all right? So somebody who submits a contact form on your website and inquires, that would be somebody who is a lead. So building an email list, probably one of the best ways to generate leads. And again, very simple too and low cost, both in terms of time and investment. My favorite tools for lead generation, SumoMe, of course. And again, that's going to have a different name here probably by the time this episode releases. So apologies for any confusion there. And what SumoMe is going to allow you to do is, again, collect those leads, so it's actually that mechanism for getting somebody to sign up for your list. And SumoMe is going to integrate with something like a Flodesk or a ConvertKit or whatever email service provider you're using. Also, another one of my favorite lead gen tools is ScoreApp. And again, as you start thinking about how you want to generate leads and what it is that you want to deliver, you can go out and find a tool that best fits whatever that is. So for instance, if you want to do a giveaway and that's how you want to generate leads, you can go find a giveaway tool. ScoreApp is an online quiz tool. And I think it's probably one of the best out there, especially just in terms of the user experience. I think you can create really slick looking online quizzes. And I also think that the process of actually creating the online quiz is probably one of the easiest tools that we've used. So SumoMe for forms and pop-ups, ScoreApp for something like online quizzes. And then you're going to want to pick something like a Flodesk or ConvertKit, for actually sending emails. If you care a lot about how your emails look, you want something that's inexpensive, but not cheap. And I mean, cheap in like, the bad, it doesn't quite work way. You want to pick Flodesk. I mean, the pricing just can't be beat. You can create beautiful emails. There's just a lot to love about that platform, all right? ConvertKit is the other one I have experience with, and I don't have anything negative to say about them. They've served us really well for a long time. And so we also typically recommend ConvertKit. And I think there is probably a use case scenario for both of them. So you should check out both.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:34:22:
Yeah, you know, I have two Flodesk accounts. So clearly I am a super fan.
Davey Jones - 00:34:29:
Yeah.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:34:31:
But, it really is. It's the easiest email service provider that I have come across and the prettiest by leaps and bounds.
Davey Jones - 00:34:40:
Yeah.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:34:41:
And I have used ConvertKit has a lot more functionality than Flodesk does. And so for anyone who's listening and is like, well, how am I going to make this decision? It's like, are you trying to do something that's simple and not complicated? Or do you want to have like this like web of things happening behind your emails? And ConvertKit is great for that. I also use MailChimp. And, you know, it's great. But because I love Flodesk so much, a little piece of me dies every time I send an email to the newsletter from MailChimp, because they're just that pretty.
Davey Jones - 00:35:24:
Yeah. What are you using MailChimp for?
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:35:27:
That's what Enji is using for its email marketing. So tailored and sourced, both use Flodesk. And I wanted with my whole being to get Enji on Flodesk, but my big vision, is that Enji becomes this big crazy company and so that's not what Flodesk is built for, right? They're built for small businesses. And so I was kind of trying to future-proof myself in that way.
Davey Jones - 00:35:57:
Yeah. They do have probably more like you can do transactional emails through MailChimp stuff like that. So that that makes sense. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry though that you have to use MailChimp And I will say. Yeah, I mean, Flodesk too, if you are a small business comparing features, I'd say they've come a long way too. I think they have pretty good feature parity now with ConvertKit. You know, ConvertKit probably does have some things here and there that... Especially in the way of integrations might be beneficial for some businesses as well. I think as soon as you start having like a sales team, then you're probably going to another type of tool, you know, something like an Ontraport or ActiveCampaign or Keap, which was formerly Infusionsoft.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:36:47:
Yep. So, you know, the lesson here is to find a platform that fits the size of your business now and into the future. It doesn't have to fit forever because it's okay to make shifts. But for sure, you need to have those super top-level lead gen tools to make sure that you're getting people on your email list. Because this is the antithesis of, if you build it, they will come. The brutal truth is no one gives a shit about your email list if you don't give them a reason to give a shit about it.
Davey Jones - 00:37:27:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's why it's so important to offer value up front and not just say, join my list for updates, things like that. You know, you want to have some sort of lead magnet, you want to deliver some sort of quick win. But remember, it doesn't have to be complicated. And especially as you're writing emails, you know, the worst thing you can do is something that's like not comfortable to you. And doesn't fit maybe your brand voice or your personality or whatnot. I mean, like I have certain emails, a certain email list that I'm on where I know committing to reading that email is going to take me 20 minutes, right? Because it's just going to be longer, a little bit more in depth. And then I have other emails that I love to read. And they're honestly like three sentences long. And it's like, hey, I created this YouTube video, check it out, you know, and that's what it is, right? And I find value in both of them. So the key is just figuring out something that works for you. But you know, I love to tell people everything works. All right, everything works, but you got to commit to it.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:38:24:
I love that. That is a perfect way to close out our conversation. Everything works. You just got to commit.
Davey Jones - 00:38:31:
Yep.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:38:33:
So thank you so much, Davey, for taking this time out of your day to have this conversation. Tell people where they can connect with you because you guys, you want to follow Davey. He's very smart. Also, Krista, I love the banter of the spousal working relationship. You guys, this is great marketing education and just social media content. So where can people find you?
Davey Jones - 00:39:00:
Yeah, you can find me a few different places. My personal Instagram is daveytjonesy. And the content I share over there runs the gamut. A lot of personal stuff, family, things like that. But I also share what we're doing business-wise as well, behind the scenes, continuing to build SumoMe and what we're doing over at the brand and website design agency. Go and check out SumoMe. I'm really excited to share the new name. I feel like I can't quite share it yet because I'm not positive that this episode will be released by then. I don't want to spoil the surprise. But go and check that out. You can check out our web and brand design agency over @daveyandkrista.com. And in both places, we have two great blogs in both at SumoMe and over at Davey & Krista with lots of content around marketing, brand design, email list building, and so on.
Tayler Cusick Hollman - 00:39:50:
Well, Davey, again, thank you for having this chat with me. And thank you, everyone, for tuning into this episode of the Pretty Okay Podcast. Be sure to check out the show notes where you can find everything about Davey and SumoMe and all the tips and tricks that we shared and talked about today about lead gen. And you can find that on prettyokaypodcast.com. And then follow us on Instagram for all sorts of shenanigans @PrettyOkayPodcast. Have a great rest of your day, everyone. And we'll see you next time.
Davey Jones - 00:40:22:
Thank you so much.